Resource BDSP OU Metagame Discussion Thread

[igiveuponaname]

Quick post since a small bit of Discord discussion brought this to mind.


Magneton @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Tri Attack

I think it may be possible that Magneton has a slight niche as a Choice Scarf user due to its higher base Speed compared to Magnezone, which lets it outspeed more threats than a Scarf Magnezone would.

BDSP Speed Tiers (Scarf Magnezone to Scarf Magneton)

Magneton isn't on this list, but it shares the same speed tier as Breloom, which still demonstrates the gap in speed between Scarf Zone and Scarf Ton.

As seen in the image in the spoiler tab, Scarf Magnezone falls below a small but significant group of threats in terms of speed; getting outsped by base 115s, +1 Jolly Tyranitar, Alakazam, +1 Feraligatr, Weavile, and +1 Dragonite. Scarf Magneton being faster than all of those mons means that, at the very worst, it would do some solid damage so that something else can revenge kill them afterwards (or you do like 30% max to Raikou lol). Being able to outspeed and OHKO Feraligatr, Starmie, and Weavile while not being weak to Ice Shard is also a nice trait to have.

So why would you use Scarf Magneton over other Choice Scarf users with better speed, utility, and offensive capabilities? Simple, Magnet Pull. With the exception of Scarf Heatran, Agility Lucario, and Scarf Jirachi (all of which are rather uncommon sets), Scarf Magneton is able to outspeed and trap every Steel type in the tier, which lets it force damage on them and remove weakened ones. This lets Magneton trap Steel types that Magnezone would otherwise be afraid of, such as offensive Heatran and Lucario.

While the damage can be lacking due to not running Choice Specs, running Scarf Magneton alongside Specs Magnezone can help alleviate this issue, as Magnezone can trap bulkier Steel types like Scizor and Empoleon. Being able to trap what is effectively every Steel type in the tier can be very useful for teammates who would otherwise detest having to fight them, such as Calm Mind Latias. Latias resisting Fire and Fighting, while being immune to Ground, helps alleviate the problem of running two mons on the same team who share those exact same weaknesses. I think it's possible the three form a nice core.

That being said, this is a small niche, and one that I have yet to actually test out, so it is possible that what I have written here could all be wrong. Looking for new strategies has definitely been one of my favourite things to do in this metagame, so I do hope that this one will turn out well in the end.

 

[Skitty (Skittyrox)]

Quick post since a small bit of Discord discussion brought this to mind.


Magneton @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Tri Attack

I think it may be possible that Magneton has a slight niche as a Choice Scarf user due to its higher base Speed compared to Magnezone, which lets it outspeed more threats than a Scarf Magnezone would.

BDSP Speed Tiers (Scarf Magnezone to Scarf Magneton)

Magneton isn't on this list, but it shares the same speed tier as Breloom, which still demonstrates the gap in speed between Scarf Zone and Scarf Ton.View attachment 494418

As seen in the image in the spoiler tab, Scarf Magnezone falls below a small but significant group of threats in terms of speed; getting outsped by base 115s, +1 Jolly Tyranitar, Alakazam, +1 Feraligatr, Weavile, and +1 Dragonite. Scarf Magneton being faster than all of those mons means that, at the very worst, it would do some solid damage so that something else can revenge kill them afterwards (or you do like 30% max to Raikou lol). Being able to outspeed and OHKO Feraligatr, Starmie, and Weavile while not being weak to Ice Shard is also a nice trait to have.

So why would you use Scarf Magneton over other Choice Scarf users with better speed, utility, and offensive capabilities? Simple, Magnet Pull. With the exception of Scarf Heatran, Agility Lucario, and Scarf Jirachi (all of which are rather uncommon sets), Scarf Magneton is able to outspeed and trap every Steel type in the tier, which lets it force damage on them and remove weakened ones. This lets Magneton trap Steel types that Magnezone would otherwise be afraid of, such as offensive Heatran and Lucario.

While the damage can be lacking due to not running Choice Specs, running Scarf Magneton alongside Specs Magnezone can help alleviate this issue, as Magnezone can trap bulkier Steel types like Scizor and Empoleon. Being able to trap what is effectively every Steel type in the tier can be very useful for teammates who would otherwise detest having to fight them, such as Calm Mind Latias. Latias resisting Fire and Fighting, while being immune to Ground, helps alleviate the problem of running two mons on the same team who share those exact same weaknesses. I think it's possible the three form a nice core.

That being said, this is a small niche, and one that I have yet to actually test out, so it is possible that what I have written here could all be wrong. Looking for new strategies has definitely been one of my favourite things to do in this metagame, so I do hope that this one will turn out well in the end.

At least credit me for enduring making a shit Specs Magneton team to spark this smh

Thinking about stealing the core though.

 

[Xilefi]

Quick post since a small bit of Discord discussion brought this to mind.


Magneton @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Tri Attack

I think it may be possible that Magneton has a slight niche as a Choice Scarf user due to its higher base Speed compared to Magnezone, which lets it outspeed more threats than a Scarf Magnezone would.

BDSP Speed Tiers (Scarf Magnezone to Scarf Magneton)

Magneton isn't on this list, but it shares the same speed tier as Breloom, which still demonstrates the gap in speed between Scarf Zone and Scarf Ton.View attachment 494418

As seen in the image in the spoiler tab, Scarf Magnezone falls below a small but significant group of threats in terms of speed; getting outsped by base 115s, +1 Jolly Tyranitar, Alakazam, +1 Feraligatr, Weavile, and +1 Dragonite. Scarf Magneton being faster than all of those mons means that, at the very worst, it would do some solid damage so that something else can revenge kill them afterwards (or you do like 30% max to Raikou lol). Being able to outspeed and OHKO Feraligatr, Starmie, and Weavile while not being weak to Ice Shard is also a nice trait to have.

So why would you use Scarf Magneton over other Choice Scarf users with better speed, utility, and offensive capabilities? Simple, Magnet Pull. With the exception of Scarf Heatran, Agility Lucario, and Scarf Jirachi (all of which are rather uncommon sets), Scarf Magneton is able to outspeed and trap every Steel type in the tier, which lets it force damage on them and remove weakened ones. This lets Magneton trap Steel types that Magnezone would otherwise be afraid of, such as offensive Heatran and Lucario.

While the damage can be lacking due to not running Choice Specs, running Scarf Magneton alongside Specs Magnezone can help alleviate this issue, as Magnezone can trap bulkier Steel types like Scizor and Empoleon. Being able to trap what is effectively every Steel type in the tier can be very useful for teammates who would otherwise detest having to fight them, such as Calm Mind Latias. Latias resisting Fire and Fighting, while being immune to Ground, helps alleviate the problem of running two mons on the same team who share those exact same weaknesses. I think it's possible the three form a nice core.

That being said, this is a small niche, and one that I have yet to actually test out, so it is possible that what I have written here could all be wrong. Looking for new strategies has definitely been one of my favourite things to do in this metagame, so I do hope that this one will turn out well in the end.

While the damage can be lacking due to not running Choice Specs, running Scarf Magneton alongside Specs Magnezone can help alleviate this issue, as Magnezone can trap bulkier Steel types like Scizor and Empoleon. Being able to trap what is effectively every Steel type in the tier can be very useful for teammates who would otherwise detest having to fight them, such as Calm Mind Latias. Latias resisting Fire and Fighting, while being immune to Ground, helps alleviate the problem of running two mons on the same team who share those exact same weaknesses. I think it's possible the three form a nice core.

https://pokepast.es/11615184966120f9
My face when Scarf Garchomp

Jokes aside I am not sure to see the point of the double magnet pull core. Trapping "every steel but heatran jirachi and lucario" generally means you trap defensive scizor that has single handedly put magnezone out of the top threat by U-Turning. Without saying that it doesn't OHKO offensive Scizor.

I get your point but being a good scarfer in this metagame requires a lot to be more valuable than the priority user we have. If you look at the scarfer that are used, they either offer a good defensive utility package (Rotom-Wash, Celebi, Garchomp) in addition of their offensive prowess or is Staraptor because it just get a KO every time it gets in. Latias and Chomp can easily sit on it, it can't relistically RK Azu and it doesn't have any form of defensive utility because of its absence of bulk (it gets OHKO by +2 Lo Zam Psychic while not being able to OHKO Zam).

I see your point of saying it is a niche but is it a valuable one ? I'm not sure at this point. Is Magneton a better scarfer than Magnezone ? Maybe but...

 

[Skitty (Skittyrox)]

https://pokepast.es/11615184966120f9
My face when Scarf Garchomp

Jokes aside I am not sure to see the point of the double magnet pull core. Trapping "every steel but heatran jirachi and lucario" generally means you trap defensive scizor that has single handedly put magnezone out of the top threat by U-Turning. Without saying that it doesn't OHKO offensive Scizor.

I get your point but being a good scarfer in this metagame requires a lot to be more valuable than the priority user we have. If you look at the scarfer that are used, they either offer a good defensive utility package (Rotom-Wash, Celebi, Garchomp) in addition of their offensive prowess or is Staraptor because it just get a KO every time it gets in. Latias and Chomp can easily sit on it, it can't relistically RK Azu and it doesn't have any form of defensive utility because of its absence of bulk (it gets OHKO by +2 Lo Zam Psychic while not being able to OHKO Zam).

I see your point of saying it is a niche but is it a valuable one ? I'm not sure at this point. Is Magneton a better scarfer than Magnezone ? Maybe but...

How DARE you say the PUBL Mon might not have a place in this meta?

 

[Lalaya]

(stop spamming other servers, we have one for a reason)

 

[igiveuponaname]

Hello hi I have come to make yet another post because I am a mess and this tier consumes most of my free time.

Don't worry I won't be making this post about some random unranked mon for once. Instead I'll just be sharing some thoughts about a certain mon that some people might know I've been quite high on recently.



Togekiss is awesome; its typing and solid bulk lets it act as a check to the many dragon, grass, and fighting types in the tier, its movepool is varied enough that it can damn near choose what answers it depending on the set, and of course the ability to cheese its way past anything slower than it with Serene Grace Air Slash. Generally though you'll be seeing Togekiss run mono-Air Slash sets with Nasty Plot, Thunder Wave, and Roost alongside it, a set which caused me so much pain once that it turned me away from building with Togekiss for months. About two months ago though I started trying to build with it again and I've come to love it, definitely among the top 10 mons in the meta imo.

The SubSalac set seen on one of the HO samples is what I decided to use when building a HO team with Agility Empoleon and came to realize that the team needed something to handle Garchomp and other dragons more effectively. When using this set in some test matches, it occurred to me just how hard Substitute Togekiss punished mons like Gliscor and Breloom, and how much security being behind a substitute offered Togekiss when dealing with otherwise solid answers to it. This led me to trying out other Togekiss sets with Substitute, since it appeared to be a rather useful move for punishing switches from the opponent.



Togekiss @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Air Slash
- Roost
- Thunder Wave

Which led to this absolutely infuriating set being made. Using this set will probably make the opponent throw insults your way, so be sure to use this if you want them to hate you . But for real, while this set lacks Nasty Plot to help push through answers which are bulky enough to take repeated Air Slashes (Blissey, SpDef Heatran, Slowking, Raikou, Magnezone, Pressure Zapdos (side note: Pressure>>>Static on Zapdos)), it can force a ton of progress against more offensive teams and even some balance teams that lack the aforementioned mons. Thunder Wave makes getting up Substitute in the face of certain threats much easier, as well as Paraflinch shenanigans making it easier to rack up Leftovers recovery while still being safely behind a Sub. As a whole Substitute on Togekiss heavily punishes Gliscor for existing, as well as heavily discouraging and/or punishing choice locked Dragon/Ground/Fighting moves. I'll post a few replays below showcasing this set on a team I made, the team itself most likely has some issues but the Togekiss set is definitely the highlight of the team imo.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1851580886-kxoqzfdfocrze2pls295bbk1inw8q4opw While Togekiss doesn't actually do much in this game, it heavily discourages Medicham from spamming High Jump Kick throughout the game, else it gets punished by a Togekiss setting up a Substitute in its face.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1852902549 A good example of Togekiss punishing choiced fighting moves with Substitute, as well as its ability to force progress against otherwise solid answers while not needing to fear too greatly should they break through the Paraflinch Hell because of the security afforded to it by Substitute.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1854275188 Another example of Togekiss breaking past an otherwise solid answer in Leftovers Heatran due to Paraflinch nonsense, while also heavily weakening Milotic with the same strategy. Also showcases its ability to check dragons (in this case, CM Stored Power Latias) and paralyze them so another teammate can more easily handle the otherwise dangerous threat.

I didn't save the replay but I did play a match where this set beat Scarf Rotom-Wash due to Substitute not letting Washtom deal damage to Togekiss with Volt Switch, and Hydro Pump being inaccurate and having low PP making it more exploitable.

I've been trying to make different variations to Substitute Togekiss sets but they're still works in progress so I won't share them here. This move has a lot of value imo so I do hope to see some more experimentation with it from others.


Just some other stray thoughts on Togekiss before I wrap up this post.
- Dazzling Gleam is more overlooked than it should be, though to be fair it can be rather hard to fit
- Scarf is probably the weakest set imo, outspeeds a lot of usual answers but with the plethora of priority in this tier the extra speed can just not be useful in certain situations, also lacks any form of recovery or boosting to deal with bulkier stuff
- Defog can probably see some use since Stealth Rocks Garchomp tends to not run a move to hit Togekiss for good damage, but inviting in Stealth Rocks Heatran for free can be really rough
- 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Togekiss Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 738-870 (103.3 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO This calc is funny and I think more people should see it
- Sticky Webs is horrible for many reasons but Togekiss is probably a decent abuser since offensive checks like Nidoking get outsped by Togekiss with Webs down


Tl:dr: Togekiss good. Substitute good. Substitute Togekiss extra good. Use Togekiss.

 

[Skitty (Skittyrox)]

View attachment 513236
Hello hi I have come to make yet another post because I am a mess and this tier consumes most of my free time.

Don't worry I won't be making this post about some random unranked mon for once. Instead I'll just be sharing some thoughts about a certain mon that some people might know I've been quite high on recently.



Togekiss is awesome; its typing and solid bulk lets it act as a check to the many dragon, grass, and fighting types in the tier, its movepool is varied enough that it can damn near choose what answers it depending on the set, and of course the ability to cheese its way past anything slower than it with Serene Grace Air Slash. Generally though you'll be seeing Togekiss run mono-Air Slash sets with Nasty Plot, Thunder Wave, and Roost alongside it, a set which caused me so much pain once that it turned me away from building with Togekiss for months. About two months ago though I started trying to build with it again and I've come to love it, definitely among the top 10 mons in the meta imo.

The SubSalac set seen on one of the HO samples is what I decided to use when building a HO team with Agility Empoleon and came to realize that the team needed something to handle Garchomp and other dragons more effectively. When using this set in some test matches, it occurred to me just how hard Substitute Togekiss punished mons like Gliscor and Breloom, and how much security being behind a substitute offered Togekiss when dealing with otherwise solid answers to it. This led me to trying out other Togekiss sets with Substitute, since it appeared to be a rather useful move for punishing switches from the opponent.



Togekiss @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Air Slash
- Roost
- Thunder Wave

Which led to this absolutely infuriating set being made. Using this set will probably make the opponent throw insults your way, so be sure to use this if you want them to hate you . But for real, while this set lacks Nasty Plot to help push through answers which are bulky enough to take repeated Air Slashes (Blissey, SpDef Heatran, Slowking, Raikou, Magnezone, Pressure Zapdos (side note: Pressure>>>Static on Zapdos)), it can force a ton of progress against more offensive teams and even some balance teams that lack the aforementioned mons. Thunder Wave makes getting up Substitute in the face of certain threats much easier, as well as Paraflinch shenanigans making it easier to rack up Leftovers recovery while still being safely behind a Sub. As a whole Substitute on Togekiss heavily punishes Gliscor for existing, as well as heavily discouraging and/or punishing choice locked Dragon/Ground/Fighting moves. I'll post a few replays below showcasing this set on a team I made, the team itself most likely has some issues but the Togekiss set is definitely the highlight of the team imo.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1851580886-kxoqzfdfocrze2pls295bbk1inw8q4opw While Togekiss doesn't actually do much in this game, it heavily discourages Medicham from spamming High Jump Kick throughout the game, else it gets punished by a Togekiss setting up a Substitute in its face.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1852902549 A good example of Togekiss punishing choiced fighting moves with Substitute, as well as its ability to force progress against otherwise solid answers while not needing to fear too greatly should they break through the Paraflinch Hell because of the security afforded to it by Substitute.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1854275188 Another example of Togekiss breaking past an otherwise solid answer in Leftovers Heatran due to Paraflinch nonsense, while also heavily weakening Milotic with the same strategy. Also showcases its ability to check dragons (in this case, CM Stored Power Latias) and paralyze them so another teammate can more easily handle the otherwise dangerous threat.

I didn't save the replay but I did play a match where this set beat Scarf Rotom-Wash due to Substitute not letting Washtom deal damage to Togekiss with Volt Switch, and Hydro Pump being inaccurate and having low PP making it more exploitable.

I've been trying to make different variations to Substitute Togekiss sets but they're still works in progress so I won't share them here. This move has a lot of value imo so I do hope to see some more experimentation with it from others.


Just some other stray thoughts on Togekiss before I wrap up this post.
- Dazzling Gleam is more overlooked than it should be, though to be fair it can be rather hard to fit
- Scarf is probably the weakest set imo, outspeeds a lot of usual answers but with the plethora of priority in this tier the extra speed can just not be useful in certain situations, also lacks any form of recovery or boosting to deal with bulkier stuff
- Defog can probably see some use since Stealth Rocks Garchomp tends to not run a move to hit Togekiss for good damage, but inviting in Stealth Rocks Heatran for free can be really rough
- 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Togekiss Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 738-870 (103.3 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO This calc is funny and I think more people should see it
- Sticky Webs is horrible for many reasons but Togekiss is probably a decent abuser since offensive checks like Nidoking get outsped by Togekiss with Webs down


Tl:dr: Togekiss good. Substitute good. Substitute Togekiss extra good. Use Togekiss.

Huh, that’s weird…

 

[Skitty (Skittyrox)]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1841488678

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1847974993

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1854224892-b1ur054sf4tdjt4vpnryqik1sliyllcpw

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 68 SpD / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Defog
- Draco Meteor
- Sleep Talk

World’s greatest Breloom Copium mon (not really). 68 SpD might be exchangeable for Defense if that route and have slightly better rolls against Breloom + U-Turn mons.

Thx igiveuponaname for the inspiration of this post.

 

[Savouras]

View attachment 513236
Hello hi I have come to make yet another post because I am a mess and this tier consumes most of my free time.

Don't worry I won't be making this post about some random unranked mon for once. Instead I'll just be sharing some thoughts about a certain mon that some people might know I've been quite high on recently.



Togekiss is awesome; its typing and solid bulk lets it act as a check to the many dragon, grass, and fighting types in the tier, its movepool is varied enough that it can damn near choose what answers it depending on the set, and of course the ability to cheese its way past anything slower than it with Serene Grace Air Slash. Generally though you'll be seeing Togekiss run mono-Air Slash sets with Nasty Plot, Thunder Wave, and Roost alongside it, a set which caused me so much pain once that it turned me away from building with Togekiss for months. About two months ago though I started trying to build with it again and I've come to love it, definitely among the top 10 mons in the meta imo.

The SubSalac set seen on one of the HO samples is what I decided to use when building a HO team with Agility Empoleon and came to realize that the team needed something to handle Garchomp and other dragons more effectively. When using this set in some test matches, it occurred to me just how hard Substitute Togekiss punished mons like Gliscor and Breloom, and how much security being behind a substitute offered Togekiss when dealing with otherwise solid answers to it. This led me to trying out other Togekiss sets with Substitute, since it appeared to be a rather useful move for punishing switches from the opponent.



Togekiss @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Air Slash
- Roost
- Thunder Wave

Which led to this absolutely infuriating set being made. Using this set will probably make the opponent throw insults your way, so be sure to use this if you want them to hate you . But for real, while this set lacks Nasty Plot to help push through answers which are bulky enough to take repeated Air Slashes (Blissey, SpDef Heatran, Slowking, Raikou, Magnezone, Pressure Zapdos (side note: Pressure>>>Static on Zapdos)), it can force a ton of progress against more offensive teams and even some balance teams that lack the aforementioned mons. Thunder Wave makes getting up Substitute in the face of certain threats much easier, as well as Paraflinch shenanigans making it easier to rack up Leftovers recovery while still being safely behind a Sub. As a whole Substitute on Togekiss heavily punishes Gliscor for existing, as well as heavily discouraging and/or punishing choice locked Dragon/Ground/Fighting moves. I'll post a few replays below showcasing this set on a team I made, the team itself most likely has some issues but the Togekiss set is definitely the highlight of the team imo.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1851580886-kxoqzfdfocrze2pls295bbk1inw8q4opw While Togekiss doesn't actually do much in this game, it heavily discourages Medicham from spamming High Jump Kick throughout the game, else it gets punished by a Togekiss setting up a Substitute in its face.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1852902549 A good example of Togekiss punishing choiced fighting moves with Substitute, as well as its ability to force progress against otherwise solid answers while not needing to fear too greatly should they break through the Paraflinch Hell because of the security afforded to it by Substitute.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1854275188 Another example of Togekiss breaking past an otherwise solid answer in Leftovers Heatran due to Paraflinch nonsense, while also heavily weakening Milotic with the same strategy. Also showcases its ability to check dragons (in this case, CM Stored Power Latias) and paralyze them so another teammate can more easily handle the otherwise dangerous threat.

I didn't save the replay but I did play a match where this set beat Scarf Rotom-Wash due to Substitute not letting Washtom deal damage to Togekiss with Volt Switch, and Hydro Pump being inaccurate and having low PP making it more exploitable.

I've been trying to make different variations to Substitute Togekiss sets but they're still works in progress so I won't share them here. This move has a lot of value imo so I do hope to see some more experimentation with it from others.


Just some other stray thoughts on Togekiss before I wrap up this post.
- Dazzling Gleam is more overlooked than it should be, though to be fair it can be rather hard to fit
- Scarf is probably the weakest set imo, outspeeds a lot of usual answers but with the plethora of priority in this tier the extra speed can just not be useful in certain situations, also lacks any form of recovery or boosting to deal with bulkier stuff
- Defog can probably see some use since Stealth Rocks Garchomp tends to not run a move to hit Togekiss for good damage, but inviting in Stealth Rocks Heatran for free can be really rough
- 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Togekiss Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 738-870 (103.3 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO This calc is funny and I think more people should see it
- Sticky Webs is horrible for many reasons but Togekiss is probably a decent abuser since offensive checks like Nidoking get outsped by Togekiss with Webs down


Tl:dr: Togekiss good. Substitute good. Substitute Togekiss extra good. Use Togekiss.

I love togekiss, used to spam that pokemon a ton with various sets when i was playing BDSP more actively. Scarf anti offense is extremely good, Sub Roost utility sets hella hard to stop and its an awesome tool for both hard offense and stall, defensive sets provide great defensive utilities and check various threats. Use togekiss, its an incredible mon!

 

[TyCarter]

Free Manaphy???
​

Might as well revive this thread. Now that the Manaphy phase for the suspect slot of BDSPPL has concluded, Manaphy was seen a fair bit. There's a few takeaways. Its performance was quite frankly middling. Before I go any further, I'll link the replays where Manaphy was on either player's team in spoilers so you can watch at your own leisure.

Replays featuring Manaphy

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1881392631-qu3sk6wvjjt5ee7ixbzzmvj7warj0kcpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1882760683
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-696850
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1887553911-zqe6inwcff7bh84hg4yp45g9w6af3mwpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8customgame-697242

Generally, it very rarely sweeps teams on its own mostly because it doesn't get many solid opportunities to pull it off. Back when its originally got suspected, it was a very contentious mon who barely met the threshold required to be banned. There is a key factor to note between then and now: Pokemon HOME's release which is often memed on for being a disappointment (it is).

The original Manaphy suspect was back when and were not yet released. Scarf Celebi is fairly commonplace that can insta threaten Manaphy and Celebi is a mon that can fit on a variety of teams along with it not just being restricted. Shaymin is much more niche but still can see use here and there. This means that Manaphy has a harder time running bulky Tail Glow sets, and while Unaware Clefable has been a staple since forever, Manaphy had to rely on skill swap to beat it. also saw a bit of a rise since Manaphy's ban as a niche pick and another grass that could annoy bulkier Manaphy sets. I also should mention who is very much legit is also another major threat to Manaphy offensively.

Manaphy is much more limited in spreads it could viably run, it has to run heavy speed investment to really maximize its offensive prowess and its also has a hard time coming in. It can't necessarily farm BO cuz if you run skill swap for famous backbone Clefable, now you have to give up coverage that can handle the likes of or any of the aforementioned grass types in the tier, if you opt for coverage, you now need to look for other ways to overwhelm some of its traditional checks like , and . Gastro would probably also be a thing too if Mana lacks Eball. More often than not, Manaphy just ends up getting a 1-for-1 in most cases especially because its bulk is nothing impressive and it has no reliable recovery unless you say run manual rain. It really experiences 4MSS.

I personally think that if a revote happened, I could see Manaphy being allowed back in the tier and not being as problematic as it originally was.

 

[Xilefi]

Free Manaphy???
​

Might as well revive this thread. Now that the Manaphy phase for the suspect slot of BDSPPL has concluded, Manaphy was seen a fair bit. There's a few takeaways. Its performance was quite frankly middling. Before I go any further, I'll link the replays where Manaphy was on either player's team in spoilers so you can watch at your own leisure.

Replays featuring Manaphy

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1881392631-qu3sk6wvjjt5ee7ixbzzmvj7warj0kcpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1882760683
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdspou-696850
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1887553911-zqe6inwcff7bh84hg4yp45g9w6af3mwpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8customgame-697242

Generally, it very rarely sweeps teams on its own mostly because it doesn't get many solid opportunities to pull it off. Back when its originally got suspected, it was a very contentious mon who barely met the threshold required to be banned. There is a key factor to note between then and now: Pokemon HOME's release which is often memed on for being a disappointment (it is).

The original Manaphy suspect was back when and were not yet released. Scarf Celebi is fairly commonplace that can insta threaten Manaphy and Celebi is a mon that can fit on a variety of teams along with it not just being restricted. Shaymin is much more niche but still can see use here and there. This means that Manaphy has a harder time running bulky Tail Glow sets, and while Unaware Clefable has been a staple since forever, Manaphy had to rely on skill swap to beat it. also saw a bit of a rise since Manaphy's ban as a niche pick and another grass that could annoy bulkier Manaphy sets. I also should mention who is very much legit is also another major threat to Manaphy offensively.

Manaphy is much more limited in spreads it could viably run, it has to run heavy speed investment to really maximize its offensive prowess and its also has a hard time coming in. It can't necessarily farm BO cuz if you run skill swap for famous backbone Clefable, now you have to give up coverage that can handle the likes of or any of the aforementioned grass types in the tier, if you opt for coverage, you now need to look for other ways to overwhelm some of its traditional checks like , and . Gastro would probably also be a thing too if Mana lacks Eball. More often than not, Manaphy just ends up getting a 1-for-1 in most cases especially because its bulk is nothing impressive and it has no reliable recovery unless you say run manual rain. It really experiences 4MSS.

I personally think that if a revote happened, I could see Manaphy being allowed back in the tier and not being as problematic as it originally was.

(BDSP OU council member, I talk for myself and my posts are only my own.)

For further context, the suspect test of happened after the DNB of and before the suspect test of that ended up as a ban. At that time if I remember correctly, the metagame was leaning towards both extremes and most people were kinda giving up bdsp at that point. Manaphy also got the least amount of qualified people ever for a suspect test if I am not mistaken again.

Realistically, Manaphy took the hammer for others. Latios got banned few months later and Gengar took his own only few weeks without any discussion. That said, Manaphy's ban got its positive impact on the metagame. First of all, Manaphy as a water threat was also a water check and surely the best one. The absence of Manaphy coincides with the rise of and in addition of . I wouldn't say was bad back then but we were seeing less cores involving it. Also, two important breakers in the following months started to get more usage in the name of and . Between other things that I don't necessarily remember. If we can't determine which came first, the chicken or the egg, Manaphy was definitely a stone preventing both of them to exist at that time.

If I remember correctly, the debate about Manaphy's suspect test crystalized around the fact Manaphy and Latios were both answers to each other, Manaphy was basically always taking a KO but always being revenged back. It was textbook an unhealthy scenario case to discuss with the shadow of Latios over it and Gengar hidding in the jar, without any clues about what would happened next. In that regard, with all I said above, I think Manaphy's ban has been a great thing for the metagame until today but its ban happened before it became broken (another chapter of BDSP chaotic birth).

That's for the story how I remember.


Back to our time period, proposing Manaphy for the first two weeks of BDSPPLII followed more or less the reasoning of TyCarter even if nobody was missing Manaphy in the council. If HOME didn't shake up BDSP as much as a lot of people wished it would have, the addition of and Pressure was enough, for me at least, to want to see it in action.

And I can't say I've been surprised by what I've seen so far. Even if the sample is so small that we can fairly say we only saw a glimpse of what it could be with Manaphy back in the tier, the first adaptations have been a blast of the past. People came highly geared for Manaphy, replaced Latios, is still there, with the addition of Manaphy finding a new best answer and a best partner with Celebi (while Cune being a snack for it). Out offense Manaphy has been a primary choice, going really fat (to not say stall) as well. So that's kinda a cycle back to where we were once it got banned.

It is definitely beatable but at what cost ?


On a side note, I think manual rain is really scary with Manaphy (even if Boopi_Bappi tilting after not breaking the first wall he met, as usual, proves me wrong) and, if I don't know if having a good rain strategy in the tier is a good idea or not, it would induce a metagame development we can't determine with the very small sample we have.

 

[Savouras]

Manaphy was v mid back when it was first allowed anyway and only 23 people voted on its suspect test with half of those people thinking it's gonna be like dpp meta game. Bdsp is a very very different meta game than dpp with many differences like manaphys tail glow for example. Personally never found this pokemon breaking or causing too much dmg to defensive teams and often just 1 v 1 trading well enough that it would be a meta game defining pokemon maybe but not overwhelming. All that before celebi and latias being allowed / used which makes a big difference in a tier with 20 viable mons.

I'd free manaphy any day of the week but give thoughts how u feel about it.

 

[Xilefi]

BDSP OU council member, I talk in my name only.

So I was about to write a massive post and then realised it would become unreadable so instead I will make a short series of what has dragged my attention in the metagame lately. Here is the first one and I plan to post at least 4 more of them in the next few days.

It has been half in a year since the 2023 circuit and I wanted to share some thoughts and feeling I have on the metagame. For the record, I had the chance to go far (round 12) even if not as far as I wanted but I battled 3 very worth opponents in a row in Winter and won PL with the Rollings Spheals ( Lets go Spheals! ) with a record of 6-1 in the OU slot. Both tours were really different in their approach for me. Winter was really much playing with no info on your opponent until late while PL needed and allowed more preparation but Bo1.

Here are the stats of 2023 BDSP Tours featuring OU (keep in mind that the data we have are not big enough to develop any conclusion statistically wise but can help to observe tendencies and trends) :

2023 BDSP OU Tours Usage and Winrate Stats

BDSP Winter SSNL Stats (39 games samples, 5 rounds from round 10 to finals)

	Pokemon	Usage	Usage %	Win %
	Clefable	40	51.28%	55.00%
	Garchomp	38	48.72%	57.89%
	Scizor	33	42.31%	39.39%
	Gliscor	32	41.03%	50.00%
	Heatran	30	38.46%	46.67%
	Latias	24	30.77%	54.17%
	Infernape	18	23.08%	44.44%
	Azumarill	17	21.79%	47.06%
	Skarmory	16	20.51%	68.75%
	Crawdaunt	16	20.51%	56.25%
	Starmie	16	20.51%	37.50%
	Tangrowth	14	17.95%	71.43%
	Rotom-Wash	14	17.95%	50.00%
	Alakazam	13	16.67%	30.77%
	Breloom	12	15.38%	50.00%
	Celebi	11	14.10%	45.45%
	Weavile	10	12.82%	50.00%
	Lucario	10	12.82%	40.00%
	Dragonite	10	12.82%	30.00%
	Mamoswine	8	10.26%	50.00%
	Magnezone	8	10.26%	50.00%
	Suicune	8	10.26%	50.00%
	Raikou	8	10.26%	37.50%
	Blissey	5	6.41%	80.00%
	Togekiss	5	6.41%	40.00%
	Nidoking	5	6.41%	40.00%
	Staraptor	5	6.41%	40.00%
	Azelf	5	6.41%	20.00%
	Roserade	4	5.13%	50.00%
	Salamence	3	3.85%	100.00%
	Milotic	3	3.85%	66.67%
	Cloyster	3	3.85%	66.67%
	Feraligatr	3	3.85%	33.33%
	Entei	2	2.56%	100.00%
	Slowbro	2	2.56%	50.00%
	Tyranitar	2	2.56%	0.00%
	Mew	1	1.28%	100.00%
	Gastrodon	1	1.28%	100.00%
	Cresselia	1	1.28%	100.00%
	Rotom-Mow	1	1.28%	100.00%
	Jirachi	1	1.28%	100.00%
	Torterra	1	1.28%	100.00%
	Ambipom	1	1.28%	100.00%
	Empoleon	1	1.28%	100.00%
	Mismagius	1	1.28%	100.00%
	Smeargle	1	1.28%	0.00%
	Slowking	1	1.28%	0.00%
	Blastoise	1	1.28%	0.00%
	Claydol	1	1.28%	0.00%
	Kingdra	1	1.28%	0.00%
	Donphan	1	1.28%	0.00%

BDSPPL Regular OU Stats (29 games, 7 rounds)

	Pokemon	Usage	Usage %	Win %
	Scizor	32	55.17%	56.25%
	Garchomp	28	48.28%	50.00%
	Heatran	23	39.66%	43.48%
	Rotom-Wash	21	36.21%	47.62%
	Gliscor	18	31.03%	61.11%
	Latias	18	31.03%	33.33%
	Weavile	17	29.31%	58.82%
	Clefable	17	29.31%	58.82%
	Infernape	16	27.59%	56.25%
	Starmie	12	20.69%	58.33%
	Celebi	12	20.69%	41.67%
	Breloom	11	18.97%	27.27%
	Alakazam	9	15.52%	22.22%
	Tangrowth	8	13.79%	87.50%
	Crawdaunt	8	13.79%	75.00%
	Lucario	8	13.79%	37.50%
	Azumarill	7	12.07%	57.14%
	Nidoking	7	12.07%	28.57%
	Roserade	6	10.34%	83.33%
	Mew	5	8.62%	60.00%
	Dragonite	5	8.62%	60.00%
	Magnezone	5	8.62%	40.00%
	Skarmory	5	8.62%	20.00%
	Feraligatr	5	8.62%	0.00%
	Suicune	4	6.90%	50.00%
	Azelf	3	5.17%	33.33%
	Mismagius	3	5.17%	33.33%
	Tyranitar	3	5.17%	33.33%
	Entei	2	3.45%	100.00%
	Espeon	2	3.45%	100.00%
	Metagross	2	3.45%	100.00%
	Gyarados	2	3.45%	100.00%
	Jirachi	2	3.45%	100.00%
	Blissey	2	3.45%	50.00%
	Mamoswine	2	3.45%	50.00%
	Blastoise	2	3.45%	50.00%
	Salamence	2	3.45%	50.00%
	Kingdra	2	3.45%	0.00%
	Smeargle	2	3.45%	0.00%
	Rotom-Mow	2	3.45%	0.00%
	Snorlax	1	1.72%	100.00%
	Raikou	1	1.72%	100.00%
	Togekiss	1	1.72%	100.00%
	Yanmega	1	1.72%	100.00%
	Empoleon	1	1.72%	0.00%
	Milotic	1	1.72%	0.00%
	Gardevoir	1	1.72%	0.00%
	Swampert	1	1.72%	0.00%

combined stats (68 samples)

	Pokemon	Usage	Usage %	Win %
	Garchomp	66	48.53%	54.55%
	Scizor	65	47.79%	47.69%
	Clefable	57	41.91%	56.14%
	Heatran	53	38.97%	45.28%
	Gliscor	50	36.76%	54.00%
	Latias	42	30.88%	45.24%
	Rotom-Wash	35	25.74%	48.57%
	Infernape	34	25.00%	50.00%
	Starmie	28	20.59%	46.43%
	Weavile	27	19.85%	55.56%
	Crawdaunt	24	17.65%	62.50%
	Azumarill	24	17.65%	50.00%
	Celebi	23	16.91%	43.48%
	Breloom	23	16.91%	39.13%
	Tangrowth	22	16.18%	77.27%
	Alakazam	22	16.18%	27.27%
	Skarmory	21	15.44%	57.14%
	Lucario	18	13.24%	38.89%
	Dragonite	15	11.03%	40.00%
	Magnezone	13	9.56%	46.15%
	Suicune	12	8.82%	50.00%
	Nidoking	12	8.82%	33.33%
	Roserade	10	7.35%	70.00%
	Mamoswine	10	7.35%	50.00%
	Raikou	9	6.62%	44.44%
	Azelf	8	5.88%	25.00%
	Feraligatr	8	5.88%	12.50%
	Blissey	7	5.15%	71.43%
	Mew	6	4.41%	66.67%
	Togekiss	6	4.41%	50.00%
	Salamence	5	3.68%	80.00%
	Staraptor	5	3.68%	40.00%
	Tyranitar	5	3.68%	20.00%
	Entei	4	2.94%	100.00%
	Milotic	4	2.94%	50.00%
	Mismagius	4	2.94%	50.00%
	Jirachi	3	2.21%	100.00%
	Cloyster	3	2.21%	66.67%
	Blastoise	3	2.21%	33.33%
	Rotom-Mow	3	2.21%	33.33%
	Kingdra	3	2.21%	0.00%
	Smeargle	3	2.21%	0.00%
	Espeon	2	1.47%	100.00%
	Metagross	2	1.47%	100.00%
	Gyarados	2	1.47%	100.00%
	Empoleon	2	1.47%	50.00%
	Slowbro	2	1.47%	50.00%
	Snorlax	1	0.74%	100.00%
	Yanmega	1	0.74%	100.00%
	Torterra	1	0.74%	100.00%
	Ambipom	1	0.74%	100.00%
	Cresselia	1	0.74%	100.00%
	Gastrodon	1	0.74%	100.00%
	Gardevoir	1	0.74%	0.00%
	Swampert	1	0.74%	0.00%
	Donphan	1	0.74%	0.00%
	Claydol	1	0.74%	0.00%
	Slowking	1	0.74%	0.00%

As a quick general thought, BO keeps being a very reliable playstyle while Balance has reached a new high in terms of efficiency. HO feels really good as well but for sure more volatile. Offense is probably the big loser of the first half of the year in my eyes but I don't think it is a fate. It will come back at one point. Stall on the other hand stays being a marginal playstyle that can find success times to times but not on a longer period. I could develop more on the usual suspects of BDSP OU since Latios ban, named Weavile, Garchomp, Latias, Clefable, Scizor etc... but nah, maybe later.

I will just give a feeling or a theory about why Balance, that used to be a very fringe playstyle back in the early days of BDSP OU, has become one of the powerhouse of the metagame. Well, that's not that complicated as a reasoning : it is hard to deal with Garchomp, CB Weavile, CM Latias and LO Scizor consistently without Clefable+Defensive Scizor that leans most of the times than not to Balance because of the common ways to either cover their weaknesses or ease the pressure put on them thanks to Pokemon like Heatran, Gliscor or Tangrowth, between else.

Anyway, more interested I am by the recent development of Starmie, Rotom-Wash, Grass types as well as Clefable, Crawdaunt and Infernape together that I will talk about in the next days.

 

[Xilefi]

BDSP OU council member, I talk in my name only.

So I was about to write a massive post and then realised it would become unreadable so instead I will make a short series of what has dragged my attention in the metagame lately. Here is the first one and I plan to post at least 4 more of them in the next few days.

Episode 2 of my column in the BDSP Herald : The return to grace of the sea star.

For the longest being Starmie (Mie for the intimate) had two popular sets : Utility Mie and Offensive Mie.

Utility Mie	Offensive Mie
Starmie @ Leftovers Ability: Natural Cure EVs: 248 HP / 44 SpA / 216 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk Scald Ice Beam Recover Rapid Spin​	Starmie @ Life Orb Ability: Analytic EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk Hydro Pump Ice Beam Thunderbolt Rapid Spin​

Since Latios ban and more exactly since Celebi release, I was really low on Mie to a point to consider it an A- mon. Offensive Mie was just not doing enough in my eyes because it needed to guess right every turn to break cores it was supposed to break before dying to Life Orb recoil. I was even lower of Utility Mie that in my mind was not fitting in any team because the said utility was not able to take a hit from anything while applying absolutely no pressure.

Very recently my mind changed completely about Mie. Nowadays Heatran is everywhere and Starmie lines up perfectly against it. Against Utility Mie, Heatran needs Power Herb Solar Beam if it wants to have a chance of setting up rocks (which doesn't come without a cost for a mon thriving on its role compression and relying on Lefties recovery), which makes Starmie a fantastic partner for Weavile between else in both Offense and Balance. Also, we have seen the rise in PL of a set that, if not new was not popular, that some call (I do) Recover Mie. For reference :

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
Hydro Pump
Ice Beam
Thunderbolt
Recover

Recover Mie acts more a less as a fast Nidoking praying on Heatran Balance cores that hates switching into it because, unlike the Offensive Mie set, it doesn't faint! So ye, it lost Rapid Spin but it is now, in this metagame, a fantastic breaker with a fantastic longevity and a fantastic speed tier, able to revenge kill Garchomp and is not a setup folder to CM Latias.

Starmie with Recover, whatever it is Offensive or Utility, is the Star (of the moment).

 

[Skitty (Skittyrox)]

Episode 2 of my column in the BDSP Herald : The return to grace of the sea star.

Not a BDSP OU Council member, I talk in my name only.

I was also in a similar position about Mie a few months ago. At the time, I thought the only real set was offensive LO, as defensive Mie doesn’t pack a huge punch to force free spins.

However, as I played more and more with Mie, the more I’ve recognized how great defensive Mie was. Being able to keep rocks off indefinitely against the most common rocker Heatran is great. It also doesn’t have bad Matchups against Garchomp, Gliscor, and Mamo. Not even Scizor is a great defensive answer to Starmie, as scald burn absolutely ruins SD sets and Defog isn’t a big fan of the chip that burn gives it. A few months ago, it felt like the BDSP hazard removal was so bad that you either had to put in a defogger (which not a lot of mons that can fulfill the roll can do amazingly) or have no hazard removal. Starmie was there, but it wasn’t considered a first choice remover. Now, I think Mie is one of, if not the, best hazard removers in the game.

I feel like I don’t need to say much about LO. LO Analytic alongside its great coverage makes this mon a revenge killing machine. Rapid Spin, while obviously doing what it is intending to do, can also prevent potential opposing scarfers revenge killing back. While Thunderbolt is important for hitting opposing waters and Skarm. I do also think Psychic is a great option for eliminating opposing Washtom. Recover is probably the scariest Mie, but I find that Mie is so good that it can be hard to slot on. I hope to delve deeper into that set soon.

The Mon has been so good recently (it could just be that I play in Morber’s Meta), that players have started to run Roserade in order to have a favorable hazard MU against the rising defensive Mie (LO Mie is iffy if there are rocks up). This is making the moves Spikes more common (as the only other mon who’d bother using it was Skarm, who Mie appreciates having on the field), and you will actually see TSpikes from time to time. This development actually helps the argument that Mie is BETTER for teams that consist of Roserade, as there are no other good spinners in the meta at this point (sorry Donphan). The only other option are defoggers, and most teams with spikes don’t want to simply remove them for their opponent.

For a tier where the hazard game which was to simply get up rocks and if you don’t like rocks on your side you’d just defog them away. The founding Mie being an outstanding spinner has had a positive impact on the metagame. I am very interested to see how this development of Mie will impact the tier in the future.

 

[igiveuponaname]

I'll echo the sentiments expressed by Xilefi and Skitty (Skittyrox) regarding Starmie, particularly the utility set. Starmie is by far the most effective and consistent hazard removal option in the metagame due to it having either positive or neutral matchups into most of the tier's hazard setters. Off the top of my head, the only hazard setters which Starmie has a naturally poor matchup into are Celebi, Roserade, and Tyranitar, with Roserade in particular rising in popularity over the past few weeks, though Skittyrox has already gone over this in his post.

Another factor which I think contributes to utility Starmie's effectiveness as a hazard remover is the lack of spin blocking options and punishers in the meta currently. The only viable Ghost type we have is Mismagius, which while not bad, isn't particularly amazing either. It's rather frail even with bulk investment and it lacks recovery outside of Leftovers and the unreliable Pain Split, which can make it susceptible to being chipped down over the course of the game by attacks, Stealth Rock damage, and chip damage from Scald burns. Maybe it's possible though that we start seeing Mismagius paired with hazard setters Starmie threatens such as Heatran, in order to keep hazards up in the face of a usually poor matchup. Though admittedly that's mostly theorymonning, as far as I'm aware that pairing hasn't really been used or seen before, and I have yet to try it out myself.

The only Rapid Spin punisher we have in the tier is Rough Skin Garchomp, which can theoretically keep hazards up against Starmie's Rapid Spin, though this requires Starmie to be on the brink of death and clicking Rapid Spin on an incoming Garchomp, which is such a crazy scenario I doubt anyone will actually try to pull it off in a game.

I won't speak too much about the offensive sets (both with and without Recover), as I haven't used them much myself. But I have been on the receiving end a few times, and yep, it hurts. A lot. Have a Blissey/Quagsire/Gastrodon or get hurt.

I don't really know how to finish this post off so uh yea. Bye.

Small edit:

I do also think Psychic is a great option for eliminating opposing Washtom.

Another small benefit to Psychic on offensive Starmie is its ability to outright OHKO Roserade, which Ice Beam can never do from full. This is mostly useful in the early game though, as once Roserade starts taking chip damage from hazards and attacks, Ice Beam is capable of doing the job just fine. That being said I still find Psychic to be rather tricky to fit, as you'd have to drop either Thunderbolt or Ice Beam in order to fit it, which can lead to some uncomfortable trade-offs (Would you rather be less immediately threatening versus offensive Waters and be walled by bulky Waters, or would you rather be incapable of threatening Latias/Celebi and be less threatening towards other dragons such as Garchomp and Dragonite? Personally I'd lean towards the former but it's still something that has to be taken into consideration when slotting in Psychic).

 

[TyCarter]

As someone who was a major advocate for LO 3A Recover Mie, it's something that is genuinely pretty hard to switch into especially when factoring in hazards and analytic boost especially when you look at the builder. The principle is that it can come in often enough and makes playing around LO Recoil no longer feasible long term.

I didn't like rapid spin because it felt like a major waste of a turn for Starmie to remove hazards and take recoil for basically a shitty return. Sure it lets you cover the and matchups better with rapid spin but the problem has always been getting that spin-off in the first place and it is a good offense killer in that sense.

The other problem is priority spam being pretty commonplace on those same offensive teams Rapid spin is supposed to do great against.

Common HO Teams

Most HO Teams are usually more than equipped to handle rapid spin Starmie at +1 and pack at least 2-3 mons that can hit it hard enough without a boost to trade and enable another wincon or in some cases win a speedtie against a more offensive azelf. (A lot of Scizors run QA for Mie on HO but X-Scissor is also a thing too for the Rotom-Wash and Slowbro/Tang matchups.) Against sturdier structures, rapid spin mie is not too great at doing that and recover over spin lets it lay a more consistent beatdown long term and come in repeatedly while still having a commanding enough speed tier naturally to demand respect.

Maybe rapid spin recover bolt beam mie with natural cure might get you somewhere for role compression but I'm not really sure. The most reliable hazard removal atm is and has forever been defog imo, I think a large part of that has to do with how flawed DragMag teams have been and their decline as a playstyle since at least the end of last year. A big reason for that is they usually have to rely on Specs , or with atk investment to consistently remove the BDSP gatekeeper that is Unaware unless you run something niche like Iron Tail Chomp.

Many metagames when they become an old gen also gradually start shifting towards more sturdier structures. This is a huge reason why I personally believe rapid spin on offensive Starmie is complete overkill and recover is just more consistent. Starmie being the major threat it also means that usage is more justified on these sturdier structures. (Case and Point: BlissTang being designed to handle stuff like Mie+Daunt to some capacity.)

I personally voted S- for Starmie in the VR slate (which will hopefully be released soon) for how much of our current OU tier struggles to properly deal with Starmie where the best counterplay is "not switching" as Xilefi would quote. Ok yes, exists but it is already rather dubious as it is limited by how often it can come in and making progress on Rotom-Wash is usually not too difficult and easy to overwhelm.

TLDR: Recover is good as the 4th move on Analytic Starmie because rapid spin actually sucks and is overvalued when you regularly wear yourself down with LO and better removal options exist. It is also really good at builder-checking many bulkier teams and Recover reduces the amount of predicting needed with Starmie. Offense teams also have suffered a bit of a decline when it comes to consistency which Starmie benefits from.

 

[Xilefi]

BDSP OU council member, I talk in my name only.

So I was about to write a massive post and then realised it would become unreadable so instead I will make a short series of what has dragged my attention in the metagame lately. Here is the first one and I plan to post at least 4 more of them in the next few days.

Episode 2 of my column in the BDSP Herald : The return to grace of the sea star.

Episode #3 of my column in the BDSP Herald : Rotom is washed.
From somewhere in Sinnoh near a beach, so probably route 213.

Rotom-Wash is weird beast to talk about. Ye I said weird because I feel like that what we know or knew about it is now wrong. Maybe not wrong but not exactly proficient. Rotom-Wash has been for me the big looser of the release of Celebi (and Pressure Suicune) in BDSP. Not only because it is both a better scarfer and a counter, but also because Rotom-Wash has never missed that much the lack of recovery. I've come to a point where I don't even think about opposing Rotom-Wash while building as it will eventually faint to Rocks, Scald's burns, Magma Storm trapping damage or Gliscor's Knock Offs, etc. Basically, Heatran+:grass_type:Grass-type core beats any form Rotom-Wash.

We used to think that Volturn strategies were proficient thanks to also Rotom-Wash but I was kinda disagreeing lately. So out of curiosity, I went to check if the stats were confirming the feeling I had. And it seems to be the case. If Rotom-Wash and Scizor winratios seem not correlated, Infernape's one drops from 50% to 36.36.% both tours combined (sample of 11 games). Same things tend to happen with the usual breakers played with it : when paired to Rotom-Wash, Weavile winratio drops of almost 10% (sample of 9 games), Crawdaunt's winratio drops of almost 20% (sample of 7 games).

On the other hand, it seems that Heatran paired with Rotom-Wash sees its winratio increase of almost 10% (sample of 20 games), Celebi's winratio increases of almost 7% (sample of 8 games), Tangrowth's winratio increase of almost of 23% (to reach in an impressive 100% winratio in 5 games). Interestingly, Roserade has never been paired with Rotom-Wash in those two events but I'm looking forward their performance when paired in the future. Keep in mind that the samples are small and the next tours might say the opposite of what I envision for Rotom-Wash.

With these unreliable stats covering my back, I confidently claim (without an ounce exaggeration!) that Rotom-Wash is washed and doesn't belong anymore in Volturn strategies. These ones are still really proficient (we don't need stats to see that) but whatever the shell, Rotom-Wash struggles in my opinion to fill its role of a pivot because 1. it doesn't bring enough utility in addition of 2. its lack of power and bulk.

On the other hand, it still looks like a very good partner in Fire-Grass-Water cores that is still worth to build around. I like a lot the idea of pairing it with Grass-types that are not Breloom and its synergy with Heatran, which is more and more targeted in this metagame, is glaring. I'm eager to see what the future has in store for it.

 

[petto]

May be off topic: is there no way to play BDSP OU on Showdown right now? I love this meta so much and it saddens me, that the community for it is so small.

 

[igiveuponaname]

May be off topic: is there no way to play BDSP OU on Showdown right now? I love this meta so much and it saddens me, that the community for it is so small.

Sending a challenge to another user is currently the only way to play BDSP OU on showdown. There was a temporary spotlight ladder for it during the month of June, but sadly that's gone now. Asking for battles in the ruins of alph chatroom on showdown or on the BDSP metagames discord will probably be the best way to find people to play with nowadays.

 

[Skitty (Skittyrox)]

May be off topic: is there no way to play BDSP OU on Showdown right now? I love this meta so much and it saddens me, that the community for it is so small.

As Igiveuponaname said, it’s currently challenge only. Your best chance at getting games is by joining the BDSP Discord or by asking in Ruins of Alph chat and hoping a morber player is on to play.

 

[Smashburn]

I haven't played this tier in a long time, so I have to ask; What's the deal with Celebi? What happened to make Mew such a cut above the rest? What happened to Alakazam's stranglehold on the offense meta? What caused Skarmory and Gliscor to fall out of favor (A+ and above)? Tf happened to Jirachi? I would appreciate detailed responses, I'm pretty lost.

[EDIT]:

I remember Tyranitar and Zapdos operating in less obscure niches, but the metagame looks super different now. Have we considered any bans? I remember Weavile being a huge point of contention. I found a lot of info in the viability rankings, but little to explain how we got there.

 

[Skitty (Skittyrox)]

I haven't played this tier in a long time, so I have to ask; What's the deal with Celebi? What happened to make Mew such a cut above the rest? What happened to Alakazam's stranglehold on the offense meta? What caused Skarmory and Gliscor to fall out of favor (A+ and above)? Tf happened to Jirachi? I would appreciate detailed responses, I'm pretty lost.

[EDIT]:

I remember Tyranitar and Zapdos operating in less obscure niches, but the metagame looks super different now. Have we considered any bans? I remember Weavile being a huge point of contention. I found a lot of info in the viability rankings, but little to explain how we got there.

Celebi is a solid scarfer for offensive teams. While it does get absolutely walled by Heatran and Sciz who are super common. It actually takes advantage of this with U-Turn, and lure them in the process. In a pinch, it can take a hit from Scarfchomp and chip it down for teammates to revenge kill. Which offensive teams love. The cherry on top is healing wish, which can help offensive teams it’s on close out games.

I haven’t played much defensive Bi, but it beats the rising hazard remover Starmie which is nice for balance teams who want passive chip.

BDSP is infamous for having a bunch of moves being taken out and greatly cutting coverage for mons. Mew didn’t really care about that and it’s an absolute pain to play against. It feels like it has 80 different sets and the right one can at worst do heavy damage to your team. It isn’t a mon you can just mess around with.

Unfortunately for Zam, scarfers exist. The rise of Celebi was a huge problem for it. As it can just u-turn on it and there’s not a whole lot that Zam can do about it. Weavile also exists and sends Zam to the shadow realm with just about every move. Sash Zam also does negative damage and is essentially a non threat.

Skarmory is mostly niche because you’re usually using it for two reasons. One, it’s on stall and the other is that it’s a suicide lead. It’s not bad on either in its defense, but stall is considered a niche playstyle in itself by most players. Azelf is also often the suicide lead of choice by most HO players (except a certain Bidoof man). It’s not bad, and it could in theory be in other play styles, but it struggles to find many spots outside those two structures.

Gliscor often runs defensive sets, and as a result, mons with setup Fortnite dance over Gliscor (there you go igiveuponaname). It wants to have defensive EVs to be able to come into Banded Ape, but too much can leave it vulnerable to coming into Heatran. Defog essentially gives the opponent a relatively free switch, and rocks Chomp is the much better 4X weak to ice option. It can still do things well, but not everything players usually want of it.

Literally the only reason you’re going to want Jirachi is to have a Specs Lati counter and you want wish for something. Other than that, Sciz is better in just about every way. Sciz can actually punish mons, and Sciz doesn’t just cause a mild inconvenience to CM Lati (which Rachi can just hope to Twave or Uturn for little chip). It’s a neon SD ON ME PLEASE sign to Garchomp. Free rocks for Tran or Chomp as well. As the game goes on as well it’s often unable to check mons it should be even with Wish. It can keep momentum with U-Turn but nothing is really scared by it to punish anything. 95% of teams has a Fire mon (Hi Heatran!) and 90% of them have a ground. The meta is just overall really unkind to Rachi and it’s outclassed by Sciz in almost every way. Even then, if you’re using Rachi you’re not using Sciz which is kind of awkward.

 

[petto]

As Igiveuponaname said, it’s currently challenge only. Your best chance at getting games is by joining the BDSP Discord or by asking in Ruins of Alph chat and hoping a morber player is on to play.

Thank you! Currently waiting for my verification for the BDSP Discord.

 

[igiveuponaname]

Tf happened to Jirachi?

Literally the only reason you’re going to want Jirachi is to have a Specs Lati counter and you want wish for something. Other than that, Sciz is better in just about every way. Sciz can actually punish mons, and Sciz doesn’t just cause a mild inconvenience to CM Lati (which Rachi can just hope to Twave or Uturn for little chip). It’s a neon SD ON ME PLEASE sign to Garchomp. Free rocks for Tran or Chomp as well. As the game goes on as well it’s often unable to check mons it should be even with Wish. It can keep momentum with U-Turn but nothing is really scared by it to punish anything. 95% of teams has a Fire mon (Hi Heatran!) and 90% of them have a ground. The meta is just overall really unkind to Rachi and it’s outclassed by Sciz in almost every way. Even then, if you’re using Rachi you’re not using Sciz which is kind of awkward.

In addition to what Skittyrox said, it's also worth remembering that Jirachi lost a lot of moves in BDSP. Losing Iron Head and Body Slam means that paraflinch shenanigans are far less reliable (Zen Headbutt + Thunder Wave can theoretically work but it's weaker and less reliable than Iron Head), losing Fire Punch and Ice Punch means you can't reliably threaten Steel types such as Scizor and Ground Types such as Gliscor and Garchomp respectively, losing Trick means you can't cripple walls with choice items, and no Toxic means you can't put switch-ins on a timer. There are probably some other moves it lost that hurt it a lot but those seem like the most noteworthy.

What ends up being left to use is a super passive mon that struggles to find as many switch-in opportunities as it would like, who also struggles with exerting any form of pressure on the opponent while also having trouble actually staying alive long term unless you run Wish + Protect on top of the near mandatory U-turn so you don't instantly forfeit momentum every time you bring in Jirachi and so you don't just end up becoming Magnezone food.

Even if the meta wasn't absolutely dunking on Jirachi from every angle possible, it would still struggle due to its diminished movepool making it unable to actually do anything to opposing teams.