Resource BDSP OU Metagame Discussion Thread

I can't find the post now, maybe I'm looking in the wrong place but this team (credits to whoever made it, I legitimately cannot find your post I looked at all 6 pages here) has been v good pls ignore my slightly off EVs and battle towere'd items, i just copied this from my save file because it was also a lot of fun using this in game
edit: oh yeah wherever I found this, the victreebel was a heatran but I wanted to not use any leg/myths at least as far as I consider them
Torkoal (F) @ Heat Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 1 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD / 1 Spe
Ability: Drought
Level: 70
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Inferno
- Rapid Spin

Charizard (F) @ Leftovers
IVs: 0 Atk
EVs: 2 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Solar Power
Level: 70
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Focus Blast
- Roost

Victreebel (F) @ Poison Barb
EVs: 6 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 70
Shiny: Yes
Timid Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Solar Beam
- Sludge Bomb
- Weather Ball

Tangrowth (F) @ Meadow Plate
EVs: 252 Atk / 6 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 70
Naive Nature
- Solar Beam
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Growth

Rhyperior (M) @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 6 SpD / 252 Spe
Ability: Solid Rock
Level: 70
Jolly Nature
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

Starmie @ Choice Specs
EVs: 2 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Analytic
Level: 70
Timid Nature
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
 

Lalaya

Be Your True Mind...
is a Pre-Contributor
Well, here we are, the first week of BDSP OU is coming to a close and I think it's a good time as any to do a recap of the metagame so far!

Small note: we have preliminary usage stats too!

Generally speaking and to nobody's surprise, we took a very offensive approach from the get-go, instantly capitalizing on what the newer generations gifted us in the form of, among all the things we got, Hidden Abilities, and by extention accessible weather abilities, giving us the first occasion to experiment Drizzle and Drought in a way that wasn't possible before in DPP OU, and we all saw what rain did to the tier in just two days and a single tournament being ran... rip
, you will (probably not) be missed. But aside from that, we also kept to our roots and demonstrated that Dragons are still a force to be reckoned with.

This premise aside, we can see that the current metagame is a mess of a mix with real power thrown around, seeing how hyper offence is the most prevalent archetype we can find, although it's by far the only one; it's going to be a real while until the meta stabilizes, and it's really fun seeing how every type of build can carry itself up, with I'd say the sole exception in balances being treated harsher, but more on that later; for now, let's see the current meta-defining Pokémon:


No, he's not the first in usage (not even in the first 10!), but he's certainly the most defining Pokémon we have, and a current candidate to get under the eyes of the council very soon (I... hope?)! This fiery chicken got his well deserved upgrade from being an inferior version of the titular starter ape we all love in DPP, to being the very epitome of power and speed nobody can hope to face without losing a single Pokémon, other than being one of the very reasons we can't just get away in building balance teams, since they're pretty much forced to run certain structures that would make them frailer in one sense or the other; backed by Speed Boost and impressive power with his 120 BP STABs, this chicken ain't for play, and he doesn't even need coverage to do his job efficiently; throwing a Swords Dance in your opponent's face is easy, and from then it's just a matter of picking the right sack and then revengekill him with your priority, or revengekiller of choice. Nothing much you can do against him if you're not running stall, just hope you get in advantage against your opponent before he gets to throw Blaziken in the field.


The other Pokémon that got pretty quickly in the spotlight for obvious reasons, while sharing with Blaziken a good history of being confined in Ubers for a long while, we have the very Pokémon we nurse since it was a small, blue egg. To nobody's surprise, rain or not heàs still very menacing, sporting one of the best boosting moves ANY Pokémon ever received and both the necessary bulk and speed to be a very threatening win condition, at any stage of the game. While he's pretty much the only Pokémon without a variance in sets (until the CM monoattacker of old works again, I suppose...), this shows how he only needs a total of five moves to be a nuisance to every type of team; Tail Glow, your STAB of choice, Ice Beam and either Skill Swap or Energy Ball, depending on what you want to deal with. Nothing much to say, just tailor its EVs on what you need and bring it to do the job he's known for since the very beginning of his life.


Well, we have to discuss of them at some point. The epitome of power and adaptability, these big claw or jet-equipped Pokémon aren't just for show; DragMag rose again as one of the most common type of offense teams, and with a good reason, since their shared checks can't hope to contain any combination of them all at once, so you need to play pretty offensively in order to get the better on them; Garchomp and Latios are the current poster children, with one having lots of variability between his sets, and a perfect combination of Speed, bulk and raw power; SD sets, LO mixed and Choiced sets are all good choices, with all bringing different things to the table, and all of them are able to deal with the majority of the meta, AND as usual he's just a good Rocker too, while the other brings up the best Speed tier available between the dragons, while packing sheer power to drop a Draco on everyone poor enough to face him, in both Choiced flavor variants, and other sets capitalizing on his typing, coverage and options, like Roost, Defog and even Calm Mind, among other things; the other three, while not as prevalent as the first two, are still perfectly capable of contributing in the battle, with Latias being the more defensive sister of Latios, and Dragonite and Salamence offering Dragon Dance sets, with their set of strengths, like Dragonite having one of the strongest priorities in the game and Multiscale to ensure a boost (or just a Banded Outrage in your face!), and Salamence having crazy snowball potential in Moxie.

Oh, and lest we forget Magnezone, the almighty trapper of Steel types and the Pokémon you'll probably either love or hate for the remainder of the metagame. While he lost every kind of tool that directly dealt with most Steel-types (rip Hidden Power and Body Press), he's showing he doesn't need them (that, and Scizor lost Superpower. Rip.). Specs, Scarf and even things like Leftovers Magnet Rise, Custap Endure or... you name it, honestly, he's in this category for his invaluable support in taking down whatever could hinder your beloved scaly bois, and much more!


Well, we talked about the Dragons, now we're gonna talk about their kryptonite. Here they are, in all their glory, the enemies of the status quo (/j) in all their glory. Weavile quickly rose to usage thanks to his qualities that make him both a very potent revengekiller and late game sweeper, thanks to his combination of blazing fast Speed, power, good STAB combo and priority. Both SD Weavile with his STAB combo and fast Ice Shard to sweep entire teams with ease, and Banded Weavile with things like Beat Up to make him the perfect antilead against screens HO and taking care of things like Sash Alakazam are perfectly fine, while Mamoswine takes a more direct approach, straight up getting on his job with his powerful STAB combo, dealing with Magnezone and his steely friends at the same time, even more Attack to abuse his priority, Life Orb to boost his power and things like Freeze-Dry to take care of any would-be switchin; you can't just enter in a Mamoswine and hope to get unscathed from the encounter. Bonus points for him: he also makes a terrifying Stealth Rock setter.


By now, you figured out, or already knew, why I'm making a big deal of this; how are you gonna effectively deal with all these threats thrown around at once? Here's your answer! Some of them are already in the thread (Dragonite, Weavile and Mamoswine), and here are the remaining ones. All are valuable for different reasons, but one that is shared across by them all is their use of a priority move. Nothing better than being able to pick off a KO on a 40% Latios, right? With how offensive is this meta, the current way to keep threats in check is just to chip them enough or revengekill them through the use of priority spam, and its noticeable just by the fact that almost every offensive team has at least TWO of them at any time. Scizor is one of the two premier steels of the tier, being able to both dish a considerable amount of damage and to resist a LOT; Breloom does his usual job of disruption, putting a enemy to sleep, picking KOs with his moves strengthened by Technician, or going the Poison Heal route making itself the perfect status absorber; Azumarill and Crawdaunt have the strongest Jets in the tier, both of which can be Banded for unparalleled damage, or boosting themselves with free turns in order to sweep entire unprepared or chipped teams; Infernape brings both Speed and power to the table, with his usual variance of sets, while sporting an impressive Mach Punch in all flavors; SD Lucario just destroys the cores relying on Clefable as their Unaware while being the other Extremespeed user in the tier, and last but not least, a new addition of the very last days, showing off his sheer Attack and Moxie abuse while having a near unresisted Sucker Punch, especially after picking KOs.


Gengar deserves a mention by himself seeing how quickly he rose the ranks of offensive glue to deal with every problematic affair in the current offensive metagame we face. Mainly Scarf, he's the guy to call when you need to clean up a Blaziken trying to spiral out of control, a Specs Latios not leaving you survivors, and much more, but with lots of potential thanks to moves like Nasty Plot, Destiny Bond and way, way more, getting able to pick up most balance cores and just rip them apart.


While you don't need one of these, they'll surely help you in the journey of building a HO team. Yes, dedicated leads are back, baby! Speed and either hazard stacking capabilities or screen setting are what matter here, and all these Pokémon are perfect for the job. Azelf and Espeon are the premiere screen setters, being able to guarantee them while either exploding in the face of a poor opponent, getting valuable momentum to not waste a single turn of them, or disrupting the opponent's lead with Yawn or Thunder Wave. Aerodactyl is the current fastest antilead available, being able to Taunt EVERY single lead except Espeon and Xatu, and then set up their own Rocks. Skarmory and Froslass are good stacking setters, and removal isn't one of the easiest things in this tier, so having Spikes is pretty appreciated, and Smeargle... is Smeargle. We have Webs, and Smeargle is ready to set them for you. Other than that, you know what this Pokémon does by know.


While Drizzle is gone, Drought isn't. Torkoal and Ninetales are your sun setters, while Venusaur and Victreebel (surprise!) are your abusers. What you end up picking depends on what you want; Torkoal, unlike Ninetales, doesn't get walled by Heatran, and can spin hazards away or set them, while Ninetales has an actual offensive presence; Venusaur gets walled by Skarmory thanks to his loss of Weather Ball, while Victreebel gets walled by Heatran thanks to not having any coverage to hit him. No matter what you end up choosing though, Sun is still a strong weather that can easily bring you to victory, especially when Blaziken is still around to abuse it for his own Flare Blitzing ends.


I can go on and on with offensive threats all day, but I'll just mention others that are gaining usage rather quickly but don't belong to a specific category: Trick Room, thanks to Cresselia and Bronzong, among other setters; Dragon Dancers like Feraligatr and Gyarados; nearly unresisted Birdspam in the form of Staraptor; the good old Cloyster in all his Smashing glory; Tyranitar to check Sun teams and Latwins at the same time, Alakazam and Starmie, proving they still got it when it comes to flex some serious power and their OU status, once lost; Suicune, while missing Pressure, still hasn't forgotten how threatening he can be while Calm Minding; The Rotom formes have their actual typings, and Nasty Plot to abuse most of them, so don't forget them; Kingdra and Drapion really love the new crit mechanics, Toxic Spikes are the bane of current stall cores, and many more; even manual Rain is actually still... not forgettable! Not to mention, thanks to the absence of any item from the newer generations, Volturn is the strongest now and basically just unpunishable. As I said from the beginning, so much offensive potential, thanks to all the newer gens did to once forgotten Pokémon and mechanics. But let's give love to our more passive, but also elegant and still important defensive brethren:


The poster child of Fairy types deserves a mention by itself, being a top threat in its own right from the very beginning, getting the most important roles of being one of the few Pokémon able to enter on basically any unboosted attack thanks to its bulk, healing and supporting his teammates with the best lone typing a Pokémon could get blessed in a metagame as offensive as this. We all already know what Clefable does, you don't need me to repeat the obvious since Generation 6, and that's how it still thrives in the metagame. Unaware for the fatter teams, Magic Guard for the usual support and status absorber shenaningans, it wasn't hurt too hard by the loss of Soft-Boiled and still remains one of the most splashable glues you can afford.


Yup, didn't change a bit since when we lost him. Speedy enough to be able to rock SD sets and get kills in a matter of seconds, while also being bulky enough to provide invaluable support in the form of being a Ground type and resisting a lot of current offensive types (hi Fighting priorities), sporting excellent longevity and status absorbing qualities, and both blocking momentum and grabbing it, he's sure as hell here to stay. Be to set rocks, to Defog them away or to SD in the face of a poor Breloom that tried to Spore you, he's an invaluable asset in building fatter teams, no matter the set you'll end up running.


Steel-types complement both Dragmag and fatter cores well, providing varying degrees of invaluable support; they set hazards, pressure the opponent with their attacks (Heatran, Doom Desire/CM Wish Jirachi and Scizor), or remove them with either Spin or Defog and passively phazing threats away or just gaining the good old slow momentum (Empoleon, Scizor, Forretress and Skarmory). Nothing much to say here, they're just invaluable and you should take care both of dealing with them and using them to your advantage in your teams.


Washing machine once again sports the ability to freely bring threats in and out, burn any physical threats he finds in his path, and distrupt both offense and stall cores depending on his set, be Leftovers or Choice Scarf Trick - oh, did I mention basically everyone else lost it? One more reason to fear Rotom -. Starmie and the Slows are perfect in this meta full of Fighting STABs thrown with no real care, Mantine is the only thing that can 100% deal with Manaphy, Empoleon eats Latios' Meteors for breakfast, and Gastrodon, Quagsire and Swampert stop Volturn cores from doing as they please thanks to absorbing Rotom-W and Magnezone's Volt Switches. Of course, Quagsire is also vital in full stall builds thanks to being the other part of the Unaware core, while Gastrodon straight up eats Water attacks, and Swampert sets Rocks. Some of them also remove hazards, which is an invaluable thing where you could be at the mercy of Spikes, or even worse, Roserade.

Of course, we can't just skip mentioning Blissey, being the other end of the infamous Skarmbliss core we all feared at least once, although losing Toxic is a heavy blow; Shedinja, making Shedstall once again a feared matchup if you rely on Manaphy too much; Tangrowth, with his Regenerator prowess and amazing physical bulk united with Sleep Powder access, Hippowdon for being as fat as he can get once again while being a terrifying phazer, Weezing for distrupting both stall and offense cores thanks to Neutralizing Gas while offering a precious Fighting resist and Toxic Spikes absorber, and more.

This metagame has some serious potential with all the new tools the newer generations gave to all these forgotten legends, new entries, and the usual span of titans we already expected; while right now Hyper Offense seems to be the current trend, every kind of offense has a lot of tools to thrive with, thanks to Volturn having a lot more access than before and being basically unpunishable, cheering the loss of Pursuit and Rocky Helmet, while Stall and Semistall are the usual customers being reliable, both with newer tools and thanking... well, everyone losing Toxic from their movepools. Speaking of which, we all noticed how a lot of Pokémon lost moves returning here, unfortunately, and it definitely feels so when Weavile can't Low Kick things, Scizor can't Superpower Magnezone, and half of the metagame not being able to Knock Off things.

My conclusions for this:
1: Blaziken will probably go soon, but other than that I feel every other threat deserves at most a suspect, not a quickban (for me Manaphy and Latios, and maybe Chomp after)
2: Balance is the current poor guy of the meta, but I feel like it will have potential again
3: Screens HO with Aero + Screener + 4 breakers are the most valid way to use a Screens HO, change my mind
4: This meta won't stop being offensive-driven any time soon, and I LOVE it.
5: According to the (preliminary and not totally exact, but decent enough) usage stats, Honchkrow should be OU. Let that sink in.

Well, hope you enjoyed the long read, this is the first time I actually do a post like this but I'm... surprisingly really loving this meta, even more than my first love, BW <3
Of course, I probably forgot or fucked up something, but I feel like this is all encompassing and I'll enjoy re-reading this when the Kickoff tour ends, seeing how much the meta evolved from here to there

shoutouts to the BDSP Discord for being an excellent resource of information and for his super valid members btw, love you guys and I recommend joining it if you're interested to the meta, and also to my frens :]
 
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So I'd like to talk about some Pokemon briefly that I've been having an absolute blast using in the current meta. (I'll do some of my massive novel-length posts once the meta settles more and some broken things are yeeted). Some of these Pokemon you have probably used, others I'm pretty sure you haven't given a go yet. These Pokemon aren't in any particular order, and I haven't been using these at the same time (most of them have been on allotments of one of my many different testing teams).

Cresselia


Set I've Been Using:

Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Moonlight
- Ice Beam
- Protect

This thing has been absolutely crucial on my Trick Room teams and is one of the best Pokemon on most of my team archetypes in general (but in particular for my Trick Room builds). This thing's bulk, access to Levitate, mono Psychic typing, and much more have allowed it to be absolutely critical in this hazard-laden meta. It is, without a doubt, the best Trick Room setter in OU right now in my opinion. I haven't felt the need to use its STAB, I've been running Ice Beam exclusively to deal with Gliscor and to get some nice damage on things like the Latis and whatnot. If you haven't tried Cresselia, try it, this thing I'm predicting will become a standard part of BDSP OU.

Feraligatr


Set I've Been Using:

Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch
- Crunch

This boy is an absolute monster right now. Sheer Force + Dragon Dance and wonderful coverage in Ice Punch and Crunch (both Sheer Force boosted) along with a wonderful Sheer Force boosted STAB move is absolutely phenomenal and cleave through most of the tier. Feraligatr reaches 383 Speed at +1 with an Adamant nature which is more than enough to outspeed most of the unboosted metagame and can survive a hit from Scarf Latios's Draco Meteor at full HP, proceeding to OHKO back with Sheer Force LO boosted Crunch. It may be overshadowed by Manaphy right now, but don't overlook this guy. He'll rip through your team like a hot knife through butter.

Bastiodon


Set I've Been Using:

Bastiodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Metal Burst
- Roar
- Protect

Manaphy Wincon / Revenge Killer. There, now that I've got your attention, let's talk about why I've been using a Pokemon long considered useless in every single generation of OU so frequently in BDSP OU. Insane defensive stats (especially on the Physical side), a Steel typing that sits on the Fairies, and access to some of the most complementary utility moves I've seen in this meta so far. Bastiodon can almost always get Rocks up thanks to Sturdy and its high defensive profile, but where Bastiodon's true utility comes is from Metal Burst, Roar, and Protect. Metal Burst is essentially Counter / Mirror Coat combined into one move (but at 1.5x damage instead of 2x), meaning no matter which side Bastiodon is fired upon from, it's going to be hitting back hard (especially with Sturdy intact). Meaning that if your Bastiodon has full health and Manaphy at Tail Glow +4 or some other ridiculous sweeper clears out one of your team, you can bring in Bastiodon and revenge with Metal Burst, or force a switch or mind game war. Roar and Protect are both excellent tools for scouting, getting rid of a Pokemon's boosts by phasing them out, or stacking up hazard damage. Don't sleep on this guy. I've found him to be one of the most useful members of various archetypes I've built thanks to its utility and the mind games that it can play along with its unique defensive profile.

Mismagius


Set I've Been Using:

Mismagius @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt
- Mystical Fire

Mismagius has turned out to be an unexpectedly wonderful gem for some of my teams for a multitude of reasons. You're probably wondering "why not Gengar?" To avoid being repetitive with a ton of details I'll defer to dunderguy and his Mismagius post earlier in the thread - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...izzle-ban-post-61.3693629/page-4#post-9038935

To briefly summarize Mismagius though; access to Levitate means that Sticky Webs, Spikes, and T-Spikes don't affect it, pure Ghost typing means that unlike Gengar it's not weak to Psychic attacks, and actually has a solid Special Defense profile of 60 / 105 which allows it to actually take a special hit and fire back. Ghost offense is really nice, and STAB Shadow Ball coming off a very usable 105 Special Attack is quite handy. Choice Scarf helps with speed issues, and the rest of the moves are coverage options I've found to be the most useful (although Mismagius has a wide movepool with other neat tech like Power Gem). Don't sleep on this mon either.

Carnivine


Set I've Been Using:

Carnivine @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed
- Power Whip
- Crunch

This is going to take some explaining, but hear me out. I've been using this guy on my main Trick Room team and he's actually been surprisingly effective. Carnivine may seem completely outclassed by Tangrowth, but in reality, Carnivine fits on a specific kind of Trick Room team thanks to some very fitting tools that others competing for a slot like this don't get. The first thing we need to get out of the way is comparisons to Tangrowth. So comparing the two, let's take a look at what we see.

Carnivine Stats:

74 / 100 / 72 / 90 / 72 / 46

Tangrowth Stats:

100 / 100 / 125 / 110 / 50 / 50

So generally we see that Tangrowth is far more of a monster stats-wise than Carnivine, while Tangrowth also has access to a better Special Attack (while tied in Attack with Carnivine) and more interesting moves such as Knock Off. However, Carnivine has two key traits that separate it from Tangrowth for use on Trick Room; First is Carnivine's slightly lower base speed of 46 means that it's going to be lower than the slew of base 50s (including Tangrowth) with no investment, putting it in a uniquely nice speed tier for Trick Room. In addition to this, the additional Special Defense cushion helps make up for the lower HP. Second; Levitate as an ability is phenomenal for what Carnivine needs to do. While Regenerator is absolutely fantastic as an ability, it also means that Tangrowth is vulnerable to all kinds of hazards (including Toxic Spikes), while Carnivine is only damaged by Stealth Rock. Levitate's additional immunity to Earthquake means that it can switch in on Earthquake without worry from some seriously potent threats (also if Gliscor's only attacking move is Earthquake, good luck dealing with Carnivine outside of some more niche options). Sub Carnivine is also interesting, and generally, there are some additional options you can squeeze out of Carnivine's movepool. Carnivine severely appreciates Wish support for the longevity outside of Leech Seed and Leftovers for those... particularly intense struggles against certain matchups.

PLEASE NOTE CARNIVINE IS HYPER NICHE AND TANGROWTH IS GENERALLY THE BETTER PICK 99.9% OF THE TIME
 
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Im currently enjoying messing around with BDSP OU and I wanted to chime in with my thoughts on some potentially problematic mons in the meta.

:manaphy: - this thing needs to go. It is incredibly oppressive to any team that can’t put offense it. I absolutely love manaphy as a Pokémon and it really saddens me to say this, but I can’t call him healthy for the metagame with a good conscious. Even water immunities aren’t safe since he can easily just run skill swap to remove their ability, and pummel them all the same. Easily the most broken mon in BDSP OU imo.

:blaziken: - this is a tough one. I personally see both sides to the argument. On one hand, it’s very easy to get set up with blaziken, and having more reliable fighting STAB in close combat elevates his threat level. On the other hand, he is frail, and can be chipped into priority range while setting up, allowing stuff like Infernape to revenge kill. Overall though, I do think blaziken is a bit much for the metagame at large, and as such also deserves a ban.

:Garchomp: - oh man this is tough for me. I have no idea whether chomp deserves a ban or not. The classic DPP yache berry set is back and effective as ever, but the existence of fairy types means that it’s a fair bit easier to check Garchomp than originally in gen 4. I could understand if Garchomp gets banned, but I personally don’t lean one way or the other. I love Garchomp dearly and to me it’s a pleasure seeing him reach heights he hasn’t been able to reach in almost a decade, so I am likely seeing this with some bias.

:latios: - another very tough call for me. I have always loved the latis and am pleased to see them in almost any metagame. But even I can’t deny that Latios can be a bit overbearing in this metagame. He almost always forces Blissey in (or whatever your special sponge is), which can be easily abused with a well timed double switch. With Latios I’m pretty split as well, but the higher speed tier makes him a fair bit more dangerous than Garchomp in my opinion, and as such I’m leaning towards ban.

Those are my thoughts on some of the potentially ban worthy threats in the meta. I’m not amazing at smogon formats but I think I can generally spot a problematic metagame presence. Hopefully I got my thoughts across clearly enough.
 

ausma

imperfection is beautiful
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Hello everyone, we hope you're having a fantastic Thanksgiving or just general Thursday. The council has had extensive discussion about three Pokemon in the current metagame, and we would like to share our conclusions and plans going forward.

First and foremost, we would like to talk about the Thanksgiving turkey that's come fresh out of the oven: Blaziken. Blaziken has been one of the most polarizing offensive threats since Rain's ban earlier this week as a Pokemon that feasts upon common balance and offensive structures, being able to utilize its extremely powerful dual STAB combination, access to Swords Dance, and Speed Boost to snowball out of control. In this slower, generally less bulky metagame, it only really needs Flare Blitz and Close Combat, giving it much more room to use Protect to act as a revenge killer and/or give it more leverage to accrue Speed and outpace the entirety of the metagame. Since it can afford Adamant, it is even stronger, allowing for it to seize games violently if given even a single free turn to set up; shockingly, resistances in Latios, Mantine, and Starmie can easily be blown away. Even without a Swords Dance boost, it is still able to win games incredibly easily thanks to its natural strength and ability to more easily run Protect and safely build Speed. However, it is still very viable for it to run other coverage options over Protect on HO such as Shadow Claw or Night Slash to obliterate Slowbro and Latias, which can make it a dangerous guessing game that can lead to a devastating outcome if it is incorrectly answered. Lastly, teams that make use of super-effective priority in Aqua Jet tend to be inherently more offensive and lack bulkier checks like the aforementioned Slowbro, which are structures that Blaziken does not need to boost against to dismantle consistently.

With a 4-2 majority, the council has voted to quickban Blaziken effective immediately. However, the council will be planning on suspecting it sometime in the future following a couple of other suspects.

Though, you may be thinking: other suspects? Indeed: Latios and Manaphy will both be receiving their own suspect tests in the near future! They will not be evaluated together, but will be evaluated individually and back to back. Latios will be suspected first, and we will begin its suspect fairly soon. Stay tuned!

1637882241417.png

Tony is currently inactive in the council, making the voting pool consist of 6 council members.

EDITOR'S NOTE: This ban will not be in effect for the ongoing Week 1 of the Kickoff Tournament.
 
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Hello everyone, we hope you're having a fantastic Thanksgiving or just general Thursday. The council has had extensive discussion about three Pokemon in the current metagame, and we would like to share our conclusions and plans going forward.

First and foremost, we would like to talk about the Thanksgiving turkey that's come fresh out of the oven: Blaziken. Blaziken has been one of the most polarizing offensive threats since Rain's ban earlier this week as a Pokemon that feasts upon common balance and offensive structures, being able to utilize its extremely powerful dual STAB combination, access to Swords Dance, and Speed Boost to snowball out of control. In this slower, generally less bulky metagame, it only really needs Flare Blitz and Close Combat, giving it much more room to use Protect to act as a revenge killer and/or give it more leverage to accrue Speed and outpace the entirety of the metagame. Since it can afford Adamant, it is even stronger, allowing for it to seize games violently if given even a single free turn to set up; shockingly, resistances in Latios, Mantine, and Starmie can easily be blown away. Even without a Swords Dance boost, it is still able to win games incredibly easily thanks to its natural strength and ability to more easily run Protect and safely build Speed. However, it is still very viable for it to run other coverage options over Protect on HO such as Shadow Claw or Night Slash to obliterate Slowbro and Latias, which can make it a dangerous guessing game that can lead to a devastating outcome if it is incorrectly answered. Lastly, teams that make use of super-effective priority in Aqua Jet tend to be inherently more offensive and lack bulkier checks like the aforementioned Slowbro, which are structures that Blaziken does not need to boost against to dismantle consistently.

With a 4-2 majority, the council has voted to quickban Blaziken effective immediately. However, the council will be planning on suspecting it sometime in the future following a couple of other suspects.

Though, you may be thinking: other suspects? Indeed: Latios and Manaphy will both be receiving their own suspect tests in the near future! They will not be evaluated together, but will be evaluated individually and back to back. Latios will be suspected first, and we will begin its suspect fairly soon. Stay tuned!

View attachment 387513
Tony is currently inactive in the council, making the voting pool consist of 6 council members.

EDITOR'S NOTE: This ban will not be in effect for the ongoing Week 1 of the Kickoff Tournament.
I'm surprised that Blaziken was considered first over Latios and Manaphy considering the latter two Pokemon were being talked about way more than Blaziken (and IMO are probably more busted, but we'll see how testing goes!). I guess it's similar to the Naganadel situation (where it was broken but almost no one was talking about it or using it, although Blaziken did have some buzz around it here more so than Naganadel did during the Crown Tundra DLC drop).

To move the thread forward I've got a few questions for everyone here!

1. How do you feel about stall as an archetype in BDSP OU right now, and have you been using it? If you haven't been using it, how do you handle stall?

2. What are your favorite underrated picks (Sub-OU placement historically) that are working really well for you in BDSP OU right now?

3. What Pokemon besides Latios, Manaphy, and Blaziken have you found to be really hard to deal with?


BDSP OU as a metagame so far I have mixed (but positive mixed) feelings about it, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how it develops!
 
1. How do you feel about stall as an archetype in BDSP OU right now, and have you been using it? If you haven't been using it, how do you handle stall?
Currently it isn't too much of a threat, but i feel as though with some actual strong offensive forces leaving the tier its power will sadly grow, and of course I havent been using it. I'm repulsed by it. I've been handling it like any reasonable person should: with extreme violence and prejudice. Manaphy, Blaziken (used to), Garchomp and Latios, basically anything able to smack its weight around.

2. What are your favorite underrated picks (Sub-OU placement historically) that are working really well for you in BDSP OU right now?
Blaziken was, it went hero to zero back to hero, uhh id say Garchomp rose back to fame. I'm just glad things with prominence got their spotlight back.

3. What Pokemon besides Latios, Manaphy, and Blaziken have you found to be really hard to deal with?
None that I can think of, but each game has its ups and downs.

Wish the meta well, even if well to some means a slow, boring tedium.
 
Currently it isn't too much of a threat, but I feel as though with some actual strong offensive forces leaving the tier its power will sadly grow, and of course I havent been using it. I'm repulsed by it. I've been handling it like any reasonable person should: with extreme violence and prejudice. Manaphy, Blaziken (used to), Garchomp and Latios, basically anything able to smack its weight around.

Wish the meta well, even if well to some means a slow, boring tedium.
I am sad about stall rising in power, and I am also repulsed by playing against it and using it. If that is what it will lead to, then I will say farewell.
 
So I saw Probopass, I saw that it gets Body Press and Magnezone doesn't, and thought to myself, "hey, this thing might actually have a niche now."

...Then I remembered that most Steels commonly carry either a Ground move or Body Press themselves. Both of which Probopass is quad weak to.

Still, the thing's got a lot of bulk, and ID+Press is never a bad combination, so I figure I'd post a sample set anyways in case anyone wanted to try it.

:probopass:
Probopass @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Volt Switch
- Stealth Rock

You could run a different EV spread or even Magnet RIse over Iron Defense, but generally I think this is the set you'll want if you're going to use Probopass. Probably still gonna be NU though.
 
I'm surprised that Blaziken was considered first over Latios and Manaphy considering the latter two Pokemon were being talked about way more than Blaziken (and IMO are probably more busted, but we'll see how testing goes!)
it’s interesting, I guess :Blaziken: was more easily revenged than the others due to its primary two STABs making it easier to take out with priority. After a close combat, quick attack :scizor: can make quick work of it, or with a flare blitz and close combat, suddenly Mach punch :infernape: :breloom: forces it out. So this gives the illusion of Blaziken being less intense than it actually is.

it’s part of the reason why I enjoyed using a banded set on Blaziken, as it preserved bulk as much as possible whilst still hitting extremely hard to bust holes (and stall only had :slowbro: as a counter, who can’t punish a u turn) .

latios :latios: and Manaphy :manaphy: probably won’t last long tho.. they’re pretty much mandating extreme counterplay tactics to manage! If :zamazenta-crowned: didn’t make it into OU because it was too overbearing on team building then there is no way manaphy/latios will remain when they can almost always force a 6 Pokémon team into 5 at the very least.

-

To answer the thought provoking question, I’ve been enjoying starmie :starmie: a lot. It’s easily an S Pokémon currently, the rain and Blaziken ban might make it a little less S, and more A, as sun teams and bulky grass types start to appear more. It’s speed tier forces out so many Pokémon and this is the first generation in a while where it feels like Starmie is actually strong. It’s interesting what can happen in a metagame without :Ferrothorn:

catch all checks like Bronzong :bronzong: have been pretty cool too..

unfortunately the limitations of poor move pools are very noticeable on a lot of the Pokémon who are probably on the fringe of OU, and it’s not cool to be reminded of some sad things, like :heatran: completely invalidating almost every special grass type.. :Venusaur: :roserade: :vileplume::exeggutor:

I’ve always wondered how almost every watertype can learn to convert water into ice beams, but literal plants can’t manipulate the earth into an earth power attack. Lol.
 
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Donphan @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard

Really liking Donphan as a bulky-offensive spinner. Thanks to Knock Off, it's not deterred by Ghost-types attempting to spin-block, and unlike Mamoswine, it can actually do heavy damage vs Bronzong. Not having a secondary Ice-type also means it's much better equipped at taking on Infernape, which is always a big plus, and isn't hit super effectively by the aforementioned Bronzong's Gyro Ball/Iron Head. Ice Shard is also great for picking off the many Dragons in the tier as well as anything else that's been weakened, such as Azelf being brought to Sash with Knock Off. Solid offensive utility mon, worth a try imo

Not the best quality game, but it shows off what Donphan can do fairly well:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1461280369-ojgq2f8gz9h5rzwa4xhojvnnvkq01gwpw
 

Lalaya

Be Your True Mind...
is a Pre-Contributor
Me when I have to remove Blaziken for my list of HOs:
DBLpack_dlXJ.png
Me when BDSP Ubers drops in the very same moment so I can just punch Groudon in and keep using the chicken:
DBLpack_zKEz.png


All aside, he deserved the ban and I called it perfectly, and I can't wait until the suspect to prove how Latios has still so much untapped potential and how Manaphy will probably feel a little less broken (or more, depends how webs offense will do lmaoooo)

Winners:
Fat steels (
), and compressed fat cores; nothing much to say, now Heatran can be actually used since he doesn't have to deal with a free chicken that could end their entire team at once, and you're not obligated to run Bro + Jetter in every single one of your bulky offense just to deal with him; he was way too restrictive in any non HO build, and it showed
This will also shake the metagame quite a bit, but I can't say for certain who will rise now (hoping for TTar ngl), so you're free to surprise!

Losers:
Screens/Suicide HO builds,
, and
; well, Bro loses a big ass niche in being the only one remotely happy to switch into any Blaziken except the Sun Banded one, and both HO builds and Sun lose their main breaker and win button against any balance or bulky offense team, and while the HO archetype isn't that hurt, Sun lost one of the two big reasons to use it; they still have Venusaur and Victreebel alongside other non speedy abusers like Ape or Tran, who even personally benefit from this, but eh, they had it good.

RIP Speed Chicken.
 
Thank you for quickbanning Chicken, now my pinkshit spikespam stall will be indestructible

On a more serious note I feel that rain being gone has taken a lot of steam out of balance breakers: I could honestly see good arguments now for Manaphy staying in OU since its now completely trolled by Unaware Clefable (stop running poopshit Moonlight just go wish protect CM) and the realization that Raikou is decent as a 4attacker keeps putting pressure on it. Latios is however no holds barred completely disgusting: If you remove it from the DragMag spam team it becomes way easier to deal with since you're not being forced to deal with a mon that can outspeed and kill all its checks for free. Nothing besides Blissey counters it and Blissey is hard pressed as is from just how hard its fucked by double switches. Jirachi isnt really an option either since everything else on dragon dump teams just demolish it.

Responding to the three piece Malachite wrote as well:

1. How do you feel about stall as an archetype in BDSP OU right now, and have you been using it? If you haven't been using it, how do you handle stall?
It is definitely on the stronger side in the Vacuum of BDSP but it can quite easily be overwhelmed by old school cores like Gengar and Infernape and requires a decent chunk of skill to actually use right now. There are good and brutal ways to cleave through the cores it relies on (Jirachi, Clefable, Skarmory Blissey Gliscor filler has to play on constant negative prio vs NPGar Infernape) but people haven't experimented with them yet and are complaining too early about its development in the tier. It will see some popularity, be countered, and then go back to being a rare pick as always.

2. What are your favorite underrated picks (Sub-OU placement historically) that are working really well for you in BDSP OU right now?

While not sub OU, Hippowdon is currently my favorite glue with Gliscor.
They both stack so much annoying shit together (weather reset, taunt, status absorber/anti trick, rocks) that you can neuter or troll the hell out of most teams relying on a big setup sweeper with minimum effort. Only thing I do despise somewhat about the Don is how negative its prio is, it lets in Waters like crazy and without a grass that can abuse sand (poison heal breloom) you struggle quite heavily vs faster teams packing starmie.
3. What Pokemon besides Latios, Manaphy, and Blaziken have you found to be really hard to deal with?
Starmie.
In a meta without pursuit it is a massive pain in the ass to counter or neuter since it can dent or burn most of its Dark type checks and it outspeeds most of the ghosts. I myself use it a lot and quite like it but Starmie is a mon with maxed out priority on just about everything barring scarfers. Fast spin + recover is also brutal vs hazard wars.
 
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Thank you for quickbanning Chicken, now my pinkshit spikespam stall will be indestructible

On a more serious note I feel that rain being gone has taken a lot of steam out of balance breakers: I could honestly see good arguments now for Manaphy staying in OU since its now completely trolled by Unaware Clefable (stop running poopshit Moonlight just go wish protect CM) and the realization that Raikou is decent as a 4attacker keeps putting pressure on it. Latios is however no holds barred completely disgusting: If you remove it from the DragMag spam team it becomes way easier to deal with since you're not being forced to deal with a mon that can outspeed and kill all its checks for free. Nothing besides Blissey counters it and Blissey is hard pressed as is from just how hard its fucked by double switches. Jirachi isnt really an option either since everything else on dragon dump teams just demolish it.
all for the fact that manaphy has genuine checks.

however if the precedent set by Zamazenta-crowned in its OU test holds.. then the same logic will apply. Just change the toxapex, zapdos, slowbro and bulkarona used in the Zam discussions for wish protect Clefable, Blissey and other temporary checks in the current manaphy discussions.

also the fact that only slow, momentum draining pink blobs are reliable checks to Manaphy.. this really implies that the metagame might not be able to cope with it

manaphy also has quite a useful move pool. It’ll be interesting to see if it survives a suspect.
 
So I saw Probopass, I saw that it gets Body Press and Magnezone doesn't, and thought to myself, "hey, this thing might actually have a niche now."

...Then I remembered that most Steels commonly carry either a Ground move or Body Press themselves. Both of which Probopass is quad weak to.

Still, the thing's got a lot of bulk, and ID+Press is never a bad combination, so I figure I'd post a sample set anyways in case anyone wanted to try it.

:probopass:
Probopass @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Volt Switch
- Stealth Rock

You could run a different EV spread or even Magnet RIse over Iron Defense, but generally I think this is the set you'll want if you're going to use Probopass. Probably still gonna be NU though.
Keep in mind that Magnezone is quad weak to Earthquake as well and that never stopped it from being a wonderful Magnet Pull trapper, although the 4x Body Press weakness for Probopass kinda sucks. Have you considered Air Balloon instead for Probopass's item? If you're running Shuca Berry it's clear that Earthquake / other ground moves are the biggest concern, so why not make yourself immune to them right off the bat? Provides a nice opportunity to either

A. Get an Iron Defense off
B. Finish off a Steel-type with Body Press

Shuca Berry can only do so much with a 4x weakness
 
I am sad about stall rising in power, and I am also repulsed by playing against it and using it. If that is what it will lead to, then I will say farewell.
HO is still the way to go imo. We'll see if latios and manaphy change that, but I doubt it. Toxic isn't very widely distributed in this format, and there's lots of viable defoggers. Maybe there's something, as an avid stall player I'm experimenting a bit today, but the lack of passive damage makes the outlook grim for stall in this format imo.
 
yo, since blaziken is gone now this opens space for other fire types such a infernape, heatran, charizard and many other to shine, looking forward for a decision on latios cause it is quite troublesome right now.
Now that Blaziken has been quick banned to the point that it will be re-evaluated, I am hopeful that this gives more opportunities for other fire types.

Fire types need reliable ways to remove stealth rock but the power is worth using. choice specs Charizard can plow for things, choice scarf Typhlosion can be a dangerous revenge killer and Moltres is probably the best Scizor check possible.

Sun is still usable without Blaziken, as Infernape can fill a lot of Blaziken's sets with its own pretty well, and defog especially helps. Without defog, sun would be much harder to use. Also, a complex weather can on sun would DESTROY viability. Case in point, look at Black White OU.

While I accept the loss of Blaziken I do worry about what this could mean if we lose another stallbreaker. I feel like the meta needs to keep searching for powerful stallbreakers since this seems to be getting commonplace. The Clefable, Skamory, Blissey and Gliscor quad core is very obnoxious to fight especially when paired with another steel type. I feel like Arcanine and Entei might see more use as Sacred Fire hits hard and can stop Gliscor from getting Poison Heal while Close Combat could easily eliminate Blissey. Thoughts?
 
I wanted to try a surprise set for a common mon, and here's what I came up with:

Manaphy @ Choice Specs
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball
- Psychic

This seems inferior to Tail Glow (and probably is), but on Webs it has the tendency to beat its switch-ins somewhat reliably. Some things I've 2hko'd/beat on switch: Latias (not sure on set), Unaware Clef, Starmie (locked into Surf), and probably more I can't remember. It's paired with a DragMag core, since it helps Magnezone to overwhelm stuff like Clef. Obviously, the dragons then get to come in and obliterate what's left of the team. It's also paired with Scarf Gengar, as an emergency revenge kill against speed-boosting sweepers or mons immune to webs. Specs Manaphy is a set I think has potential, although against really bulky teams it can struggle or rely on a lot of predictions. It's also bulky enough to take hits from mons which are immune to webs, like Latios, and OHKO them with Ice Beam.

For those interested, my full team can be found here.

For those a bit less (or more) interested, here's a replay of me spamming moves to pressure my opponent's hazard removal until their mons died.
 
The chicken is ban.. Let's go!!!

Ask to the council.. What is next in the chop block? Manaphy? Latios? Both?

This ban make balance a bit less harder to play with.. Without Blaziken on the picture Mantine become the best bulky water in this Manaphy meta. The weakness to Stelth Rock sucks and inviting Washtom isn't the best ting in the world but can be played around with good teams.
 

Lalaya

Be Your True Mind...
is a Pre-Contributor
The chicken is ban.. Let's go!!!

Ask to the council.. What is next in the chop block? Manaphy? Latios? Both?

This ban make balance a bit less harder to play with.. Without Blaziken on the picture Mantine become the best bulky water in this Manaphy meta. The weakness to Stelth Rock sucks and inviting Washtom isn't the best ting in the world but can be played around with good teams.
Though, you may be thinking: other suspects? Indeed: Latios and Manaphy will both be receiving their own suspect tests in the near future! They will not be evaluated together, but will be evaluated individually and back to back. Latios will be suspected first, and we will begin its suspect fairly soon. Stay tuned!
:smogthink:
 
Now that Blaziken has been quick banned to the point that it will be re-evaluated, I am hopeful that this gives more opportunities for other fire types.

Fire types need reliable ways to remove stealth rock but the power is worth using. choice specs Charizard can plow for things, choice scarf Typhlosion can be a dangerous revenge killer and Moltres is probably the best Scizor check possible.

Sun is still usable without Blaziken, as Infernape can fill a lot of Blaziken's sets with its own pretty well, and defog especially helps. Without defog, sun would be much harder to use. Also, a complex weather can on sun would DESTROY viability. Case in point, look at Black White OU.

While I accept the loss of Blaziken I do worry about what this could mean if we lose another stallbreaker. I feel like the meta needs to keep searching for powerful stallbreakers since this seems to be getting commonplace. The Clefable, Skamory, Blissey and Gliscor quad core is very obnoxious to fight especially when paired with another steel type. I feel like Arcanine and Entei might see more use as Sacred Fire hits hard and can stop Gliscor from getting Poison Heal while Close Combat could easily eliminate Blissey. Thoughts?
I also wanna point out that while Gliscor I'd definitely a stall friend. The classic stall killer set from ORAS still works pretty well here and can decimate a lot of basic stall cores.
 

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