With OLT up, it's about time I replied to this. Go follow OLT and see stall teams dominate the rankings with even the best players consistently losing to it. Your ignorance will be lifted.
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Resource BDSP OU Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Eve
- Start date
Probably Close Combat
my bad, yeah it’s close combat
since stall is being discussed, what are some ways to deal with the current stall-breakers? specifically guts heracross, 4 attacks alakazam, sludge bomb crawdaunt, focus punch nidoking, offensive heatran, choice band staraptor, and modest + life orb + HYPER BEAM porygon-z (the number one guy on ladder runs that set and it basically one shots everything that is currently seen on stall). i know someone of course is going to mention poliwrath for crawdaunt, but it’s pretty difficult to fit poliwrath on a team to act as a bulky water when the most common fire type seen is infernape, and close combat destroys it, also poliwrath just acts as bait for alakazam and staraptor, which are two pokémon that are very hard to switch in to. maybe i haven’t been using poliwrath correctly, but i feel it’s a very niche pick for 3 strong breakers (weavile, crawdaunt, and feraligatr), but outside of those 3 match ups, it’s hard to use it most matches.
Lucario has a pretty good Stall match-up. Being a SPA offensive mon that cab setup and threaten Blissey + Clefable. While also being a great Physical sweeper capable of threatening Blissey + Clefable + Gliscor and being great against offensive due to extreemspeede.
sorry if i worded that weirdly, but what i meant to say is what are some pokémon that defensively check the previous threats i mentioned. like what are some pokémon that can fit on a stall team that can deal with the common stall-breakers. however, i agree with you about lucario! as it has a very good match up against stall teams without a slowbro, quagsire, or gliscor.
Physdef Gliscor is most likely your best bet against guts Heracross, that being said you need to keep it as healthy as possible in order to check hera, since adamant guts facade can still do a decent chunk.
Slowking is good against Nidoking and Heatran, and can be used to check 4 attacks LO Zam in a pinch.
Physdef Skarmory is the only thing that comes to mind that can check banded Staraptor, keep in mind though that you'd be prone to being trapped by Zone, so you might want to run shed shell.
Poliwrath really just is the best answer stall has to Crawdaunt, even though you mention that you find it difficult to fit on a team. Itemless Tangrowth works fine against non Sludge Bomb Crawdaunt, but other than that it's mostly about dancing around Sludge Bomb.
Admittedly I don't play stall myself, so I might not have the most accurate information, but I'm hoping this could be of help to you.
You don't have a catch all answer. BDSP is by nature not kind to Stall with lack of defensive answers in general.
As igiveuponaname has answered before me, I'll just add some thoughts.
As a generic answer, Gliscor deals with Heracross if no Swords Dance. You would need Acrobatics if opponent runs SD in the same way that Zapdos ran Drill Pick in UU. Zapdos that actually stills works and has some viable applications in OU. Also Togekiss is generally a good way to deal with it, though Togekiss rarely fits in stall I would guess. Also Salamence which at the opposite has some applications in stall is probably a good way to beat Heracross. Also, Weezing should do the trick if I'm not wrong about how works Neutralizing Gas.
Slowking with a little investment in SpDef is a really good way to deal with current builds of Nidoking with no Thunderbolt. It can even deal with Thunderbolt builds if you run enough SpDef, even without Leftovers. I tend to use berries with it in multiple balance builds, either Colbur for Knock Off users or Kasib for Zam. Though, it is a shaky counter against Zam if it is your only way to deal with it.
Blissey with full investment in Defense switch into Psyshock from full if no rocks, which is useful to know. Very niche but it does exist I guess, SpDef Hippodown is never 2HKO from full against LO 4 Attacks Zam, as it was actually living 2 Shadow Balls from Specs Gengar...
I don't even think it is the scariest set against stall from Staraptor. As often against Banded mons, predictions are required in those spots. That's also why you would see Protect here and there in Stall builds, sometimes too many of them. Outside of that, Skarmory is indeed a good counter to it, even with Shed Shell.
Another way to deal with Sludge Bomb Crawdaunt is itemless Physdef Shaymin.
Some people has personal grudge against Stall it seems. The best way to deal with that kind of mons that are "only versus stall match up" like also Ursaring for example is just to take the lose. These mons or sets are even more fishy than Stall is in BDSP. But I can understand the idea, both for fun and ladderwise, because high ladder is fulfill by some one trick pony stall players (
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bastiodon: 136-161 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
ANYWAY !
Here are just actual counterplays but keep in mind that positioning is key for Stall and most of these mons are easier to deal with if you "played around" them : double switching, momentum move like U-Turn, predictions, status ailment (especially Thunder Wave), Protect or even overusing Regenerator as a momentum move.
unfortunately, it's very hard to build a "do it all" stall team that checks all stall-breakers. this is because if you focus too much on checking specific threats, your team is going to be lopsided and you'll end up being vulnerable to stuff a stall team would normally wall. however, i will try to list off some of the best answers to the threats you mentioned and try and build a viable stall team that doesn't lose so easily to the common anti-stall pokemon.
guts heracross is actually completely walled by neutralizing gas weezing, which is definitely the best answer to any guts breaker. weezing's ability makes it to where heracross loses the power it would normally get from guts. impish gliscor with 200 def evs can check adamant guts heracross decently. max defensive salamence and dragonite with fire/ice coverage can also check heracross so long as rocks aren't up. then of course, clefable and skarmory can act as one-time checks with either a brave bird or a moonblast, but they are both cleanly 2hko'd, so i wouldn't rely on these two as checks. if you're running a timid heatran, you could catch your opponent's prediction and get a free switch in with it. alternatively, you can hope that megahorn will miss and use slowbro with psychic/future sight to kill off heracross.
4 attacks alakazam truly has no switch-ins, it has perfect coverage. from my experience though, it's best to run twave on blissey and always initially switch blissey into an alakazam and twave it. even if they psyshock you on the switch, it's always a 3hko if rocks aren't up and crippling alakazam can go a long way, especially if you have a spdef gliscor, as it outspeeds alakazam when it's paralyzed and you can use knock off to ohko it. spdef scizor of course checks alakazam but you're always forced to roost, so it gets very risky. slowking is probably the best check? regenerator + leftovers means you aren't forced to use slack off, and you can actually use a move to chip it and switch out. plus having blissey + slowking leaves the opponent to do some predictions as you can reasonbily switch into either one, this kind of works with spdef gliscor + blissey too, as the opponent has to choose between a psychic and psyshock. max physically defensive milotic can also check alakazam if it needs to, as it isnt 2hko'd by any of alakazam's moves.
sludge bomb crawdaunt, like you said, is walled by poliwrath. and i agree with you about how it's difficult to fit poliwrath onto a team. however, there's more than just poliwrath that can deal with it. defensive dragonite easily walls sludge bomb crawdaunt. multiscale allows it to negate the initial knock off damage, then after that crawdaunt can't really do much, as dragonite resits its water stabs and an itemless knock off isn't really going to do much, just make sure rocks aren't up. dragonite actually can fulfill the same role as slowbro on stall teams because of dragonite's typing, so if you're running a stall team with slowbro, you could easily replace it with dragonite for additional crawdaunt and defog support (also dragonite is very good against u-turn spam so that's an added bonus). neutralizing gas weezing can also check sludge bomb crawdaunt, because crawdaunt loses the adaptability boost when weezing comes in. a rest + sleep talk set with will-o-wisp can somewhat switch in while having recovery and threating back with a burn. however, both dragonite and weezing can't check choice band crawdaunt that well, so it's best to pair one of those two with tangrowth just in case the crawdaunt you're facing does happen to be choice band. you could also run either jirachi or heatran that out-speeds crawdaunt and switch those in on a sludge bomb and then u-turn with jirachi or sack your heatran and will-o-wisp crawdaunt. rotom-wash can also check sludge bomb crawdaunt, as it can outspeed with 8 speed evs and then threaten back with an electric move or will-o-wisp. losing leftovers is really bad for rotom though. shaymin can also check sludge bomb crawdaunt and choice band crawdaunt quite well, it naturally out-speeds, and it can run synthesis or rest + natural cure for recovery.
spdef gastrodon, slowking, and cresselia counter nidoking. those three wall any move by nidoking, and can threaten back with coverage. spdef gliscor checks nidoking if it's not running ice beam, but that's extremely rare. mantine can also check focus punch nidoking, because if nidoking is using focus punch that means it's not using thunderbolt. miltoic without any special defensive evs can also check focus punch nidoking. spdef mew can provide a lot of role compression while also checking nidoking quite well as it's not 2hko'd, and can either run ice beam or earthquake to deal with it (spdef mew is seen everywhere on stall in ss ou, i think it's pretty underexplored for stall in bdsp ou). spdef scizor can switch into nidoking if it's not running flamethrower, and most of the time nidoking isn't using flamethrower if it's a focus punch set. this also holds true with brongzong using leviate. and finally a bulky spinner starmie out-speeds and checks focus punch nidoking.
heatran is very annoying agasint stall. spdef gliscor works well agasint it. it avoids being 2hko'd from magma storm, can threaten with earthquake, and defog rocks away. however, if the opposing heatran's magma storm crits and can outspeed, your gliscor is useless. gliscor also doesn't have a fire resist, so any modest or choice specs set can be very dangerous for gliscor to switch into. slowking counters any set from heatran, but this means heatran will always be able to get rocks up against slowking. blissey can wall any heatran set without taunt, and it's also important to know that if heatran gets paralyzed, even with taunt, blissey will always win the 1v1. gastrodon walls any heatran set not using solar beam. but if you really want to prevent heatran from getting rocks up without using gliscor, you could always use dragonite, even without spdef investment heatran cant do much back, especially since heatran cant punish dragonite with toxic. slowbro, starmie, milotic, and poliwrath can somewhat check heatran if it's not running solar beam.
choice band staraptor is best checked by skarmory, but you do have to worry about u-turn chip + rocks over the course of a match since you have to run shed shell due to magnezone. jirachi is also a great check. you can run leftovers to not worry about chip, but make sure you have u-turn so that you're not trapped by magnezone. slowbro + heatran also works well against staraptor. you always switch slowbro in to scout, and if they use brave bird double into heatran and fish for a flame body activation. scouting with protect can also make staraptor less threatening against stall, just make sure you have something that can take a brave bird though.
the only thing that can wall nasty plot + life orb + modest + hyper beam porygon-z that actually has viability on stall is max spdef tyranitar and rest + sleep talk spdef heatran. blissey with protect can predict the hyper beam and twave afterward while fishing for paralysis though.
anways here's the sample team:
https://pokepast.es/900833eeae7b73fc
blissey is there due to the role compression as a special wall. protect is there for the hyper beam porygon-z set and scouting. slowking covers special attackers that blissey can't check, such as heatran, focus punch nidoking, and alakazam. slowking is evd to live 2 shadow balls from alakazam, and the rest are dumped into defense. skarmory is there for weavile, mamoswine, and staraptor. dragonite handles heracross, infernape, lucario, sludge bomb crawdaunt, and scizor. tangrowth is there for trick rotom-wash and because it walls pretty much any physical attacker that doesn't have coverage against it. and finally quagsire because we need a ground type and swords dance garchomp would 6-0 the team otherwise, plus quagsire has a better match up against belly drum azumarill, ice beam feralitgatr, and most physical setup sweepers that would otherwise carry poison/iron coverage agasint clefable. the team's wincon is either calm mind slowking or spreading toxic as much as possible from quagsire. if you want you can change the slowking to a spdef mew with will-o-wisp and toxic or will-o-wisp and defog to have a better match-up against physical attackers, provide toxic spreading, or defog support for dragonite, but i tend to prefer slowking.
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since this meta is coming to an end i thought i'd do that whole "ou: the meta" thing that always goes around. enjoy!
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Usage stats for the month of August were just released today, so I thought it would be a good idea to look through them and take note of what's changed between August and the month prior. Figured it would be a good discussion topic to see why some stuff has changed and what could benefit from these changes. I'll be using the 1630 stats since that's what was posted on the usage stats thread and because it'll give us a better idea of what's good in the tier than if I were to look at the low ladder stats. I'll post a link to the thread and the stats page for those who can't find it.
General Overview
Simply just looking at the usage stats thread for the month of August would show that the metagame has remained rather similar to that of July for the most part. The vast majority of pokemon saw changes in usage of 1% more or less, meaning little variation in usage ranking with a few exceptions like Roserade who fell from 28th to 34th despite losing only little over half a percentage point. However, there are a few pokemon that I've noticed had a noticeable change in usage between July and August. These pokemon are Heatran, Clefable, Latias, and Azumarill. I'll focus on Heatran and Clefable first since those two are the more drastic of the four.
Heatran and Clefable
In July,
was second in usage with just under 34% usage, while 
was fifth in usage with 31% usage. In August, dropped down to fifth in usage with 29% usage, roughly a 5% drop in usage! Meanwhile, rose all the way up second in usage with about 34% usage, about a 3% increase in usage. From what I can tell, there hasn't been much change in the overall metagame to warrant such a drop in usage from Heatran, yet Clefable clearly thrives from the drop in usage considering Heatran is perhaps Clef's most prominent counter. If anyone can perhaps explain the drop in usage from Heatran, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Latias and Azumaril
From what I can tell, the changes in usage from these two isn't intertwined like with Heatran and Clefable, but I'm still going to talk about them in tandem. In July,
was seventh in usage with about 22% usage, while 
was seventeenth in usage with just under 10% usage. In August, dropped to eighth in usage with 19% usage, a 3% drop. Meanwhile, has risen to sixteenth in usage with 12% usage, a 2% increase. While Latias obviously doesn't appreciate two Fairy types rising in usage to prevent her from spamming her strongest STAB move, neither Azumarill or Clefable appreciate taking STAB Psychic, so it's not like they're a major hindrance against Latias. Once again, if someone could explain these changes in usage, I'd appreciate it a lot.
Digging A Bit Deeper
Now that we've gone over the noticeable changes on the usage stats thread, I think it's time to go to the moveset page and dig a little deeper into the metagame changes. I'll be going through these in order of usage on the August moveset page, I'll only do the first eight since I don't want to make a massive wall of text.I mean it's still a wall of text but whatever.
Scizor remains at the top of usage to nobody's surprise, and has undergone little change that is new. Compared to its usage in July, where its most used spread max attack adamant with HP investment. Scizor has shifted to using a specially defensive spread as its most used spread. That being said, offensive spreads are still plentiful, as they are the next three EV spreads in line. The uptick in SpDef Scizor means that Defog has become slightly more common compared to the month prior, while Swords Dance has seen a small drop in usage. However, that is not to say Defog sees more usage overall, as Swords Dance still sees slightly more usage on Scizor likely due to Scizor being paired up with another hazard remover such as Gliscor. Life Orb now seems to be the boosting item of choice for offensive sets, having gone from about 16% usage in July to 21% in August. Lastly, Quick Attack has become increasingly common on offensive sets in order to be able to hit the likes of Rotom-Wash and other water types.
Now having reached second in usage, Clefable has undergone more changes than one would have expected during the month of August. Let's get the biggest change out of the way first, the rise of the Cosmic Power set. In July, this set was essentially not listed at all, the EV spread wasn't listed, and Cosmic Power was listed as a move but not Stored Power or Charge Beam. Now, the EV spread for the Cosmic Power set is the fourth most used spread with just under 10% usage. Not only that, but Stored Power and Charge Beam are now listed moves, both with around 10-11% usage, even Cosmic Power saw a small increase in usage, rising up to 13%. As a result of this, Wish and Protect have seen a big drop in usage, dropping by about 10% and 14% respectively, while Moonlight has increased in usage by about 12%. Other moveset changes include a small increase in Flamethrower by about 4%, a drop in usage of Calm Mind by about 7%, a drop in Thunder Wave usage by about 9%, and a large increase in Stealth Rocks usage by about 17%, causing Stealth Rocks to have a usage rate of about 25% on Clefable. On top of simply having a Clefable counter, it'd be best to also start bringing Taunt user, a Phazer, or a Haze user in order to deal with this increase in Cosmic Power Clefable.
Garchomp keeps its third placing in the month of August, having functionally changed very little. That is not to say there isn't anything to talk about though, so let's get into it. Let's start with item usage. Garchomp's main item the past two months has been Life Orb, though there has been about a 10% decrease in Life Orb usage between July and August, going from 39% to 29%. Garchomp's second most common item in July, Choice Scarf, has also seen a decline in August, this time by about 9%, going from 23% to 14% usage. Yache Berry has become more common though, having risen from 11% in July to 22%. In terms of EV spreads, very little has changed, max attack and max speed Jolly remains the most used set with mixed variants being under it in usage. In terms of moves, Garchomp has seen an increase in usage from Outrage (up 10% points), Stealth Rocks (up 17% points), and Swords Dance (up 17% points). I think this suggests that offensive Rocks sets with SD are becoming more prelavent, so be on the look out for those sets. On the other hand, many of Garchomp's moves have seen a decrease in usage over the course of August. Most notably among these are Fire Blast (down 20% points), Poison Jab (down 9% points), and Draco Meteor (down 7% points). The former two are coverage moves which Garchomp uses to be able to bypass certain counters, namely Skarmory, Tangrowth, and Togekiss. The decrease in usage from these moves should mean that these mons have a tad bit more wiggle room against Garchomp, thought Tangrowth should still be wary of a boosted Outrage from LO Garchomp.
Up next is Gliscor who once again keeps its fourth place placement in the usage stats. The biggest changes Gliscor has undergone is a decrease in SpDef sets while simultaneously seeing an increase in max attack max speed Jolly SD sets which were not listed in July. This is reflected in the usage of its moveset with Swords Dance seeing a increase of 11% points and Facade now being listed as a move with 10% points. Similarly, Stealth Rocks and U-turn have seen small declines in usage on Gliscor. However, that is not to say that Gliscor's role is going to be drastically changing, as the vast majority of EV spreads it can run are not listed due to the wide variety of spreads that it can run. Gliscor will forever remain Gliscor.
Washtom the brave little washing machine has seemingly done a 180% on its most common role in August, with Choice Scarf variants making up nearly half of all Washtom during the month. In contrast, Washtom saw Leftovers usage on nearly half of its uses during July. The changes in its moveset usage reflect this fact as well, Trick has seen an increase of 16% points, now reaching 58%. Other moves which show this trend is the slight uptick in Thunderbolt usage (up 7% points) and Protect no longer being listed as one of its most common moves. Lastly, it appears a specially defensive EV spread has started popping up in usage, being the third most common EV spread. If I were to guess, its purpose would be in order to deal with Starmie, though I can't be 100% sure on that.
Heatran hasn't changed all that much despite falling from its previous spot in second place. For starters, its item usage is nearly identical, only seeing a very small increase in usage for Leftovers and Power Herb. Though there is a new item that has appeared on the usage stats it appears, Choice Scarf, with 2% usage. I personally do not see the appeal of Scarf Heatran, but it's not my job to judge others. Heatran's EV spreads have remained the same since July, offensive variants with Timid being the most common, followed by specially defensive sets, and finishing it off with offensive variants with Modest. In terms of moves, Stealth Rocks has seen the biggest increase on Heatran, having a 70% usage rate in August, compared to the 54% usage rate from July. Other moveset changes include a drop in Protect usage in August, as well as a drop in Overheat usage. Lastly, Flash Fire has become the preferred ability on Heatran with a 61% usage rate in August compared to 52% in July. This obviously helps Heatran switch in on other Heatran using a fire move, but hurts it's utility in burning Scizor who try to U-turn out on a Heatran coming in.
I'll keep this one short, Blissey has barely changed, because it has no real reason to change. Aside from the odd offensive sets you see on low ladder occasionally, you won't run into anything new or surprising from Blissey. If I were to say anything, it would be that Aromatherapy has seen a small decline in usage during August.
And last but not least for this post is Breloom. In comparison to July, Breloom has seen an uptick in Poison Heal sets during the month of August. Over 65% of Breloom are still using Technician, however, so it's best to keep that set in mind when building. In terms of item, Toxic Orb is the most used, though that isn't a surprise considering Poison Heal sets only run that item, while Technician sets can choose between many items. The item choice for offensive sets is primarily Focus Sash and Life Orb, with an increase in Choice Scarf usage. Choice Band has become less common in August too. The EV spread will depend on which type of Breloom you encounter, Poison Heal sets will invest more into HP than Technician sets which prefer speed. In terms of moves, Mach Punch has seen a decline in usage, dropping 15% points in August down to 65%. Other moves which dropped in usage are Rock Tomb and Bullet Seed, both used on Technician sets, though they didn't drop as much as Mach Punch did. In exchange, Substitute, Focus Punch, Seed Bomb, and even Toxic have seen an increase in usage, no doubt due to the increase in Poison Heal Breloom. Tangrowth will no doubt be effective against Breloom as always, though you should be wary of the increase in Toxic from Breloom.
So Who Benefits?
So what was the point of this post, of all that text? Well aside from sharing what I could find from the usage stats data, I wanted to discuss what pokemon could benefit from the recent metagame changes, since everybody surely has a different answer. I wanted to share my answer to you all, in order to start discussion.
The decrease in Garchomp running Fire Blast, the decrease in Heatran, as well as Scizor being as good as ever makes me think that Skarmory will be useful in the metagame throughout this month. Taunt and Whirlwind can shutdown Cosmic Power Clefable itself so long as there's another teammate to phaze in. Brave Bird OHKO's Breloom without investment, and being able to lay Spikes or Stealth Rocks will always be useful. It will obviously struggle with Washtom and Heatran, but that's nothing other teammates can't handle. The decrease in Latias usage also means that Skarmory won't have to risk taking Latias' STAB moves or Thunderbolt. It also deals with Choice Band Azumarill well, which leads to my next pick.
Already on the rise throughout August, I feel confident that Azumarill will keep up the momentum throughout this month. Being able to threaten all the mons mention listed earlier and many more makes it a threat that must be accounted for going forward. Being able to take advantage of pivoting moves from Scizor and Washtom will also be a great boon for it since it will be able to hit the field without the need to switch directly into attacks. Resisting Weavile's STAB combo is also a big plus.
So what do you guys think? What do you make of the latest usage data? What mons do you think will see an increase in usage throughout this month? Whatever you have to say on this matter, I'd like to know.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...2-august-39-september-58.3704172/post-9293429 (July usage stats)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...2-august-39-september-58.3704172/post-9322356 (August usage stats)
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-07/moveset/gen8bdspou-1630.txt (In-depth July usage stats)
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-08/moveset/gen8bdspou-1630.txt (In-depth August usage stats)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...2-august-39-september-58.3704172/post-9322356 (August usage stats)
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-07/moveset/gen8bdspou-1630.txt (In-depth July usage stats)
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-08/moveset/gen8bdspou-1630.txt (In-depth August usage stats)
General Overview
Simply just looking at the usage stats thread for the month of August would show that the metagame has remained rather similar to that of July for the most part. The vast majority of pokemon saw changes in usage of 1% more or less, meaning little variation in usage ranking with a few exceptions like Roserade who fell from 28th to 34th despite losing only little over half a percentage point. However, there are a few pokemon that I've noticed had a noticeable change in usage between July and August. These pokemon are Heatran, Clefable, Latias, and Azumarill. I'll focus on Heatran and Clefable first since those two are the more drastic of the four.
Heatran and Clefable
In July,
was second in usage with just under 34% usage, while was fifth in usage with 31% usage. In August, dropped down to fifth in usage with 29% usage, roughly a 5% drop in usage! Meanwhile, rose all the way up second in usage with about 34% usage, about a 3% increase in usage. From what I can tell, there hasn't been much change in the overall metagame to warrant such a drop in usage from Heatran, yet Clefable clearly thrives from the drop in usage considering Heatran is perhaps Clef's most prominent counter. If anyone can perhaps explain the drop in usage from Heatran, I'd greatly appreciate it.Latias and Azumaril
From what I can tell, the changes in usage from these two isn't intertwined like with Heatran and Clefable, but I'm still going to talk about them in tandem. In July,
was seventh in usage with about 22% usage, while was seventeenth in usage with just under 10% usage. In August, dropped to eighth in usage with 19% usage, a 3% drop. Meanwhile, has risen to sixteenth in usage with 12% usage, a 2% increase. While Latias obviously doesn't appreciate two Fairy types rising in usage to prevent her from spamming her strongest STAB move, neither Azumarill or Clefable appreciate taking STAB Psychic, so it's not like they're a major hindrance against Latias. Once again, if someone could explain these changes in usage, I'd appreciate it a lot.Digging A Bit Deeper
Now that we've gone over the noticeable changes on the usage stats thread, I think it's time to go to the moveset page and dig a little deeper into the metagame changes. I'll be going through these in order of usage on the August moveset page, I'll only do the first eight since I don't want to make a massive wall of text.
Scizor remains at the top of usage to nobody's surprise, and has undergone little change that is new. Compared to its usage in July, where its most used spread max attack adamant with HP investment. Scizor has shifted to using a specially defensive spread as its most used spread. That being said, offensive spreads are still plentiful, as they are the next three EV spreads in line. The uptick in SpDef Scizor means that Defog has become slightly more common compared to the month prior, while Swords Dance has seen a small drop in usage. However, that is not to say Defog sees more usage overall, as Swords Dance still sees slightly more usage on Scizor likely due to Scizor being paired up with another hazard remover such as Gliscor. Life Orb now seems to be the boosting item of choice for offensive sets, having gone from about 16% usage in July to 21% in August. Lastly, Quick Attack has become increasingly common on offensive sets in order to be able to hit the likes of Rotom-Wash and other water types.
Now having reached second in usage, Clefable has undergone more changes than one would have expected during the month of August. Let's get the biggest change out of the way first, the rise of the Cosmic Power set. In July, this set was essentially not listed at all, the EV spread wasn't listed, and Cosmic Power was listed as a move but not Stored Power or Charge Beam. Now, the EV spread for the Cosmic Power set is the fourth most used spread with just under 10% usage. Not only that, but Stored Power and Charge Beam are now listed moves, both with around 10-11% usage, even Cosmic Power saw a small increase in usage, rising up to 13%. As a result of this, Wish and Protect have seen a big drop in usage, dropping by about 10% and 14% respectively, while Moonlight has increased in usage by about 12%. Other moveset changes include a small increase in Flamethrower by about 4%, a drop in usage of Calm Mind by about 7%, a drop in Thunder Wave usage by about 9%, and a large increase in Stealth Rocks usage by about 17%, causing Stealth Rocks to have a usage rate of about 25% on Clefable. On top of simply having a Clefable counter, it'd be best to also start bringing Taunt user, a Phazer, or a Haze user in order to deal with this increase in Cosmic Power Clefable.
Garchomp keeps its third placing in the month of August, having functionally changed very little. That is not to say there isn't anything to talk about though, so let's get into it. Let's start with item usage. Garchomp's main item the past two months has been Life Orb, though there has been about a 10% decrease in Life Orb usage between July and August, going from 39% to 29%. Garchomp's second most common item in July, Choice Scarf, has also seen a decline in August, this time by about 9%, going from 23% to 14% usage. Yache Berry has become more common though, having risen from 11% in July to 22%. In terms of EV spreads, very little has changed, max attack and max speed Jolly remains the most used set with mixed variants being under it in usage. In terms of moves, Garchomp has seen an increase in usage from Outrage (up 10% points), Stealth Rocks (up 17% points), and Swords Dance (up 17% points). I think this suggests that offensive Rocks sets with SD are becoming more prelavent, so be on the look out for those sets. On the other hand, many of Garchomp's moves have seen a decrease in usage over the course of August. Most notably among these are Fire Blast (down 20% points), Poison Jab (down 9% points), and Draco Meteor (down 7% points). The former two are coverage moves which Garchomp uses to be able to bypass certain counters, namely Skarmory, Tangrowth, and Togekiss. The decrease in usage from these moves should mean that these mons have a tad bit more wiggle room against Garchomp, thought Tangrowth should still be wary of a boosted Outrage from LO Garchomp.
Up next is Gliscor who once again keeps its fourth place placement in the usage stats. The biggest changes Gliscor has undergone is a decrease in SpDef sets while simultaneously seeing an increase in max attack max speed Jolly SD sets which were not listed in July. This is reflected in the usage of its moveset with Swords Dance seeing a increase of 11% points and Facade now being listed as a move with 10% points. Similarly, Stealth Rocks and U-turn have seen small declines in usage on Gliscor. However, that is not to say that Gliscor's role is going to be drastically changing, as the vast majority of EV spreads it can run are not listed due to the wide variety of spreads that it can run. Gliscor will forever remain Gliscor.
Washtom the brave little washing machine has seemingly done a 180% on its most common role in August, with Choice Scarf variants making up nearly half of all Washtom during the month. In contrast, Washtom saw Leftovers usage on nearly half of its uses during July. The changes in its moveset usage reflect this fact as well, Trick has seen an increase of 16% points, now reaching 58%. Other moves which show this trend is the slight uptick in Thunderbolt usage (up 7% points) and Protect no longer being listed as one of its most common moves. Lastly, it appears a specially defensive EV spread has started popping up in usage, being the third most common EV spread. If I were to guess, its purpose would be in order to deal with Starmie, though I can't be 100% sure on that.
Heatran hasn't changed all that much despite falling from its previous spot in second place. For starters, its item usage is nearly identical, only seeing a very small increase in usage for Leftovers and Power Herb. Though there is a new item that has appeared on the usage stats it appears, Choice Scarf, with 2% usage. I personally do not see the appeal of Scarf Heatran, but it's not my job to judge others. Heatran's EV spreads have remained the same since July, offensive variants with Timid being the most common, followed by specially defensive sets, and finishing it off with offensive variants with Modest. In terms of moves, Stealth Rocks has seen the biggest increase on Heatran, having a 70% usage rate in August, compared to the 54% usage rate from July. Other moveset changes include a drop in Protect usage in August, as well as a drop in Overheat usage. Lastly, Flash Fire has become the preferred ability on Heatran with a 61% usage rate in August compared to 52% in July. This obviously helps Heatran switch in on other Heatran using a fire move, but hurts it's utility in burning Scizor who try to U-turn out on a Heatran coming in.
I'll keep this one short, Blissey has barely changed, because it has no real reason to change. Aside from the odd offensive sets you see on low ladder occasionally, you won't run into anything new or surprising from Blissey. If I were to say anything, it would be that Aromatherapy has seen a small decline in usage during August.
And last but not least for this post is Breloom. In comparison to July, Breloom has seen an uptick in Poison Heal sets during the month of August. Over 65% of Breloom are still using Technician, however, so it's best to keep that set in mind when building. In terms of item, Toxic Orb is the most used, though that isn't a surprise considering Poison Heal sets only run that item, while Technician sets can choose between many items. The item choice for offensive sets is primarily Focus Sash and Life Orb, with an increase in Choice Scarf usage. Choice Band has become less common in August too. The EV spread will depend on which type of Breloom you encounter, Poison Heal sets will invest more into HP than Technician sets which prefer speed. In terms of moves, Mach Punch has seen a decline in usage, dropping 15% points in August down to 65%. Other moves which dropped in usage are Rock Tomb and Bullet Seed, both used on Technician sets, though they didn't drop as much as Mach Punch did. In exchange, Substitute, Focus Punch, Seed Bomb, and even Toxic have seen an increase in usage, no doubt due to the increase in Poison Heal Breloom. Tangrowth will no doubt be effective against Breloom as always, though you should be wary of the increase in Toxic from Breloom.
So Who Benefits?
So what was the point of this post, of all that text? Well aside from sharing what I could find from the usage stats data, I wanted to discuss what pokemon could benefit from the recent metagame changes, since everybody surely has a different answer. I wanted to share my answer to you all, in order to start discussion.
The decrease in Garchomp running Fire Blast, the decrease in Heatran, as well as Scizor being as good as ever makes me think that Skarmory will be useful in the metagame throughout this month. Taunt and Whirlwind can shutdown Cosmic Power Clefable itself so long as there's another teammate to phaze in. Brave Bird OHKO's Breloom without investment, and being able to lay Spikes or Stealth Rocks will always be useful. It will obviously struggle with Washtom and Heatran, but that's nothing other teammates can't handle. The decrease in Latias usage also means that Skarmory won't have to risk taking Latias' STAB moves or Thunderbolt. It also deals with Choice Band Azumarill well, which leads to my next pick.
Already on the rise throughout August, I feel confident that Azumarill will keep up the momentum throughout this month. Being able to threaten all the mons mention listed earlier and many more makes it a threat that must be accounted for going forward. Being able to take advantage of pivoting moves from Scizor and Washtom will also be a great boon for it since it will be able to hit the field without the need to switch directly into attacks. Resisting Weavile's STAB combo is also a big plus.
So what do you guys think? What do you make of the latest usage data? What mons do you think will see an increase in usage throughout this month? Whatever you have to say on this matter, I'd like to know.
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Ok I haven't had the energy to hop on Showdown and make teams the past few days but I've had ideas recently that I want to try out and figured I would share them here. Quick disclaimer that I haven't actually tried these ideas out, with one exception, so this will be almost entirely theoretical.
Rotom-Based (Rotom) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Hex
- Discharge
- Nasty Plot
I'll start off with something a bit more silly and honestly not all that good, standard Rotom. I saw this set while watching ladder one day and found it really funny, I've been wanting to make a team with it ever since. Its poor stats let it down though, it can have problems trying to set up, and it needs to fish for multiple full paralyses in a row against Clefable. It's definitely a funny set, but it won't be all that good in practice, as it is essentially a worse Mismagius.
Charizard @ Choice Specs
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Overheat
- Focus Blast
- Roost/Solar Beam
The only set on this post that I've actually used before, Charizard is quite the force on sun teams. While it does require heavy hazard removal to be used at its best, the power it offers under sun is well worth the effort. Being able to cleanly OHKO or 2HKO the entire metagame with fire moves while under sun with very few exceptions gives it a great niche on sun teams in my opinion. That being said, it can only fit on sun teams since its traits aren't as valuable on other team styles and it is generally outclassed as a special attacking fire type by Heatran.
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Discharge
- Defog/Drill Peck
- Roost
- U-turn
I haven't really paid much attention to this mon, but Alley Cat has been going on about it recently so I figured I may as well put it here. What can I say about this mon... it's a good Lucario answer. Being able to punish contact moves with paralysis is a nice trait to have too. Other than that... I don't really get it. Sorry MSV...
Hariyama @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 164 Def / 92 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Fighting type check to Weavile that can afford to run attack investment, can deal with Heatran and Tyranitar decently as well, but that's the most Hariyama will be checking defensively. I slapped RestTalk on this set right here just cuz but you could probably use some other moves instead if you felt like it. For example, Heavy Slam is a clean 2HKO on Clefable, doing 60% minimum, so it can lure Clef if you so desire. Having access to Knock Off is also a cool benefit in this meta. That being said, aside from Clef, this Hariyama set struggles with physical walls like Tangrowth, Slowbro, Skarmory, and Gliscor, so it won't be very effective against fatter teams. Definitely something you use because you really want to use it rather than something you can just slap on a team.
Out of all the mons on this list, this is the one I want to build with the most once I get the desire to start team building again. While it does have that crippling 4x Stealth Rocks weakness which would necessitate heavy hazard removal support, it looks like it would be well worth the effort considering it could run both defensive and offensive sets which could be greatly effective. Defensive sets can check the likes of Scizor, Heatran, Lucario, Breloom (without Rock Tomb), Infernape, the rest of the grass types in the tier (except Rotom-Mow), and mono-Moonblast Clefable. The EVs on defensive sets can have some customizability, and can change what it can check depending on the team. Sets that run max physdef can also deal with Weavile surprisingly well?, as long as there aren't any rocks up of course. We all know the benefits of Flame Body because of Heatran, and Moltres can benefit from it just as much as Heatran, arguably even more so since it is immune to EQ and resists Close Combat, two great and common physical moves which Heatran doesn't want to stay in on or switch into. Offensive sets also appear to be powerful due to Moltres' high base SpAtk stat and high BP STAB moves like Hurricane and Fire Blast, though it does appear like this sort of set would struggle against bulky water types and mons like Heatran and Blissey. This is probably hyping Moltres up too much, but I guess I'll find out eventually once I start building teams with it. I'll be sure to post an update once that happens.
Rotom-Based (Rotom) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Hex
- Discharge
- Nasty Plot
I'll start off with something a bit more silly and honestly not all that good, standard Rotom. I saw this set while watching ladder one day and found it really funny, I've been wanting to make a team with it ever since. Its poor stats let it down though, it can have problems trying to set up, and it needs to fish for multiple full paralyses in a row against Clefable. It's definitely a funny set, but it won't be all that good in practice, as it is essentially a worse Mismagius.
Charizard @ Choice Specs
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Overheat
- Focus Blast
- Roost/Solar Beam
The only set on this post that I've actually used before, Charizard is quite the force on sun teams. While it does require heavy hazard removal to be used at its best, the power it offers under sun is well worth the effort. Being able to cleanly OHKO or 2HKO the entire metagame with fire moves while under sun with very few exceptions gives it a great niche on sun teams in my opinion. That being said, it can only fit on sun teams since its traits aren't as valuable on other team styles and it is generally outclassed as a special attacking fire type by Heatran.
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Discharge
- Defog/Drill Peck
- Roost
- U-turn
I haven't really paid much attention to this mon, but Alley Cat has been going on about it recently so I figured I may as well put it here. What can I say about this mon... it's a good Lucario answer. Being able to punish contact moves with paralysis is a nice trait to have too. Other than that... I don't really get it. Sorry MSV...
Hariyama @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 164 Def / 92 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Fighting type check to Weavile that can afford to run attack investment, can deal with Heatran and Tyranitar decently as well, but that's the most Hariyama will be checking defensively. I slapped RestTalk on this set right here just cuz but you could probably use some other moves instead if you felt like it. For example, Heavy Slam is a clean 2HKO on Clefable, doing 60% minimum, so it can lure Clef if you so desire. Having access to Knock Off is also a cool benefit in this meta. That being said, aside from Clef, this Hariyama set struggles with physical walls like Tangrowth, Slowbro, Skarmory, and Gliscor, so it won't be very effective against fatter teams. Definitely something you use because you really want to use it rather than something you can just slap on a team.
Out of all the mons on this list, this is the one I want to build with the most once I get the desire to start team building again. While it does have that crippling 4x Stealth Rocks weakness which would necessitate heavy hazard removal support, it looks like it would be well worth the effort considering it could run both defensive and offensive sets which could be greatly effective. Defensive sets can check the likes of Scizor, Heatran, Lucario, Breloom (without Rock Tomb), Infernape, the rest of the grass types in the tier (except Rotom-Mow), and mono-Moonblast Clefable. The EVs on defensive sets can have some customizability, and can change what it can check depending on the team. Sets that run max physdef can also deal with Weavile surprisingly well?, as long as there aren't any rocks up of course. We all know the benefits of Flame Body because of Heatran, and Moltres can benefit from it just as much as Heatran, arguably even more so since it is immune to EQ and resists Close Combat, two great and common physical moves which Heatran doesn't want to stay in on or switch into. Offensive sets also appear to be powerful due to Moltres' high base SpAtk stat and high BP STAB moves like Hurricane and Fire Blast, though it does appear like this sort of set would struggle against bulky water types and mons like Heatran and Blissey. This is probably hyping Moltres up too much, but I guess I'll find out eventually once I start building teams with it. I'll be sure to post an update once that happens.
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igiveuponaname
Zapdos checks: physical infernape and even mixed to some extend, crawdaunt, scizor, lucario, mence, waters, breloom, TOGEKISS, tanks 1 +1 adamant ice punch from gator (if u ever need that :p), scarf raptor, soft checks heracross, and many more.
Yes its walled by ground types and gliscor, yes u can u-turn out into your bulky water or even better: predict them coming in with a safe u-turn and go into weavile or or an offensive mon that forces out grounds and probably get a kill or a big chunk out of something.
Certain structures that used mixed def gliscor might be better off by using zapdos. Para is a bad bad condition and can path the way for slower breakers like nidoking
Zapdos checks: physical infernape and even mixed to some extend, crawdaunt, scizor, lucario, mence, waters, breloom, TOGEKISS, tanks 1 +1 adamant ice punch from gator (if u ever need that :p), scarf raptor, soft checks heracross, and many more.
Yes its walled by ground types and gliscor, yes u can u-turn out into your bulky water or even better: predict them coming in with a safe u-turn and go into weavile or or an offensive mon that forces out grounds and probably get a kill or a big chunk out of something.
Certain structures that used mixed def gliscor might be better off by using zapdos. Para is a bad bad condition and can path the way for slower breakers like nidoking
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Yes
METAGROSS IS META 
is an undusted diamond in the rough. It's powerful, bulky, and great at supporting it's team.Most importantly; it is an extremely potent offensive machine.
has the extremely valuable trait of being able to switch into many of the tier's scariest attackers like 
Even more importantly,
is an offensive Pokémon capable of easily luring common walls like 
and blowing up on them with Explosion.Despite the nerfed power of Explosion, it is still an incredibly strong move capable of swaying many battles towards it's user's side.
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Explosion vs. 244 HP / 200+ Def Gliscor: 294-347 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 385-454 (97.7 - 115.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 316-372 (103.9 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 385-454 (97.7 - 115.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 316-372 (103.9 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However, Metagross doesn't have to explode in order to make progress. With an offensive Stealth Rocks set, it's able to turn it's defensive switches into opportunities to support.
With it's wide move pool,
is able to fit many niches for different teams.It's capable of functioning as a sweeper with Rock Polish, a Dualscreens setter with Explosion and Stealth Rocks, and a Choice Scarf Revenge Killer.
With
's diminishing popularity, is capable of leaving many defensive teams with large holes for it's team to abuse.It makes a perfect partner for a plethora of offensive Pokémon who enjoy it's ability to break their walls
It is able to make many offensive archetypes potent, with the biggest one being water spam.
is a nigh perfect fit on water spam and rain teams stacking threats like 
for it's ability to lure in 
and 
and explode on them, or chip them with Zen Headbutt.With it's tremendous bulk,
is also capable of living an earthquake from 
and chip it, causing a great amount of chip for teammates like Swords Dance
to abuse.With it's Steel and Psychic typing,
is capable of even checking the likes of 
, who relies on Focus Blast to break Steels.With a mixed Life Orb set with Grass Knot,
is capable of destroying the two most unkillable Pokémon on stall, being Unaware
and 
If a defensive team is so unfortunate as to experience
Meteor Mash raising it's attack, the matchup becomes nigh unwinnableAt +1,
is capable of OHKO'ing almost, if not all Pokémon common on stall teams.With it's Steel typing,
is capable of switching into one of the most annoying defensive pivots to deal with; 
is capable of absorbing sleep from , and luring a Knock Off for it's partner Justified who can no longer be put to sleep.With this combo, many defensive teams relying on
Overall,
is an incredibly slept on Pokémon, that should be explored more for it's unique and power traits.#revivebdsp
Attachments
Who let LittleSpookz get the password to Yonitet's account?METAGROSS IS META
is an undusted diamond in the rough. It's powerful, bulky, and great at supporting it's team.
Most importantly; it is an extremely potent offensive machine.
View attachment 489098
Even more importantly,and blowing up on them with Explosion.
Despite the nerfed power of Explosion, it is still an incredibly strong move capable of swaying many battles towards it's user's side.
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Explosion vs. 244 HP / 200+ Def Gliscor: 294-347 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 385-454 (97.7 - 115.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 316-372 (103.9 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However, Metagross doesn't have to explode in order to make progress. With an offensive Stealth Rocks set, it's able to turn it's defensive switches into opportunities to support.
With it's wide move pool,
It's capable of functioning as a sweeper with Rock Polish, a Dualscreens setter with Explosion and Stealth Rocks, and a Choice Scarf Revenge Killer.
With's diminishing popularity,
It makes a perfect partner for a plethora of offensive Pokémon who enjoy it's ability to break their walls
It is able to make many offensive archetypes potent, with the biggest one being water spam.
for it's ability to lure in
and explode on them, or chip them with Zen Headbutt.
With it's tremendous bulk,and chip it, causing a great amount of chip for teammates like Swords Dance
to abuse.
With it's Steel and Psychic typing,, who relies on Focus Blast to break Steels.
With a mixed Life Orb set with Grass Knot,and
If a defensive team is so unfortunate as to experience
At +1,
With it's Steel typing,
, and luring a Knock Off for it's partner Justified
With this combo, many defensive teams relying on View attachment 489104 and View attachment 489093 to anchor the backbone are put in a complete disadvantage, especially since most teams, defensive or not, are not built to handle the sheer power of Explosion.
Overall,
#revivebdsp
I'm not gonna lie I thought this tier died out, how is the revolving door working out for yall? Also out of curiosity, but mostly because I hate playing SVOU and think it's trash competitively atm due to tera, how is the meta right now? Is it something anyone would pick up, and how would those of you still actively playing it rate it?
Second question, do any of you have a personal discord server for connecting with other players for matches? Trying to get one on PS challengeable formats anymore is a joke, hard to do.
Second question, do any of you have a personal discord server for connecting with other players for matches? Trying to get one on PS challengeable formats anymore is a joke, hard to do.
There are a small community of us that still at least discuss the metagame as a whole. As you said, finding actual quality matches now is hard because everyone you find on the ladder is either a 10 year old playing mons for the first time or, even worse, Yonitet (there is no high or low ladder, just ladder). Right now the meta just revolves around trying not to die to Weavile who is easily the biggest offensive presence in the meta and forces 50/50s left and right. There are a wide variety of offensive mons to use in this meta, and as a result, offensive teams are typically the best archetype in this tier. It’s a fun tier imo, but it’s really hard now to get good opponents if you don’t know the right people.
not really true. weavile is good, definitely at least A+. however it has many issues holding it back from complete dominance. It's rocks weak, relies heavily on prediction, and is completely destroyed by protect. To break clef, it also requires multiple icicle crash flinches.
Ah yes. Protect. The moves that's so totally common on its checks. Its rock weakness is not difficult to cover at all, and hardly "heavily relies on prediction". That burden is on the opponent, because one wrong predict on their part is often enough for Weavile to claim a KO and start a snowball effect. Btw Clefable, even 252HP/252+def is 2HKOd with the slightest chip by banded jolly icicle crash. Which is near guaranteed if adamant.
Weavile is easily S rank, and despite some flaws it has, is a very volatile and broken presence.
I see we're a little divided on Weavile, ah the gen8ou nostalgia. But a lot of things have changed since I left the tier all things considered. I know Metagross was at least mentioned half seriously, and I'm not gonna lie at first glance I see it as an option alongside other unranked nichemons like Blastoise in an offense centric meta. Are there any other unmons that fit into this tier (granted, ones that actually work)?
If you guys have a discord where you teambuild / playtest and discuss stuff I'd love to join, otherwise I'd be more than happy to make one and invite people. This metagame seems interesting now, but I'd need access to better, more experienced players.
If you guys have a discord where you teambuild / playtest and discuss stuff I'd love to join, otherwise I'd be more than happy to make one and invite people. This metagame seems interesting now, but I'd need access to better, more experienced players.
At what point are you just saying stuff just to say it? All Weavile needs to break Clef is ONE Icicle Crash Flinch. Even if Clef switches out after the first hit into an Icicle Crash counter (which it won’t). It just makes Weavile’s job that much more easier the next time it comes out because Clef has to be at full. It also sometimes runs Jab as well. You know, the move that can poison? If Clef isn’t at full, then Weavile is in the driver’s seat. Even if Clef is at full, Weavile can just flinch it’s way to a kill. But what do I know? I don’t run Sash SD Weavile that requires a good prediction to setup, loses the entire purpose of the set to rocks, and gets walled by Clef and needs multiple flinches to break it.
Oh wait…
In terms of unranked mons that have seen success in tournaments, the winner of LCQ used Aggron (as a late game sweeper), Drapion (used a Sniper SD set meant to cleave through stall, unfortunately it never really happened during the matches (1,2)) , and Zapdos (as a pivot/defogger) during some of their sets and won with them. Blastoise was used in game 1 of the circuit playoffs finals as a Shell Smash sweeper on HO. Hariyama was used by the circuit playoffs runner-up in game 2 of the finals, but its set was unfortunately scuffed so it couldn't really do much during the game.