Berry Juice or Eviolite - The Right Choice

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Berry Juice vs Eviolite - The Right Choice​

With the unbanning of Berry Juice, the old gen 5 standby between deciding whether your Pokemon is defensive or offensive then dumping Eviolite on every Pokemon is now gone. Berry Juice has made a huge splash on the metagame and is one of the most controversial topics of Little Cup at this moment. The old standbies in regards to items are obsolete, now that there is a serious decision to be made. However, there has been a bizarre influx of Berry Juice usage on every Pokemon. This thread will help serve to document what item works best on what Pokemon. However, there is a middle ground, and that will be noted as well. An example of Pokemon that can choose freely between the two items depending on the player's needs is Pawniard. Without further ado:

Berry Juice Users:

Dwebble
Tirtouga
Magnemite
Swirlix
Bronzor
Fletchling
Snubbull
Scraggy
Chinchou

Eviolite Users:

Porygon
Meditite
Timburr
Murkrow
Tangela
Mienfoo
Slowpoke
Vullaby
Ferroseed
Growlithe
Ponyta
Archen
Lileep
Foongus
Frillish

Middle Ground:

Gligar
Pawniard
Yanma
Munchlax
Misdreavus​

Feel free to suggest any Pokemon you feel that deserve to be added to one of these categories. This will serve to clear the confusion and bad choices made by sticking one item on one that shouldn't be running it in an optimal situation.

Also discuss why the item is better on respective Pokemon in order to provide factual evidence.
 
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Just off the top of my head:
Berry Juice: Chinchou, Yanma, Bronzor
Eviolite: Slowpoke, Vullaby, Mienfoo
Middle Ground: Munchlax (can also run resttalk!!!), Misdreavus (has enough bulk to set up NP and then get berry juice recovery imo)

Chinchou is the big one I want to talk about. With high HP and Volt Switch, this thing is fantastic in this meta. Its stabs are the best and its super cute and it can tank a hit from Murkrow via Berry Juice. Also has Heal Bell which is great due to how many status moves people are running these days.

Mienfoo is same old Mienfoo with Eviolite; Fake Out is really good and Knock Off obviously got buffed... One thing is Mienfoo can often afford to run HJK nowadays merely due to the fact that the meta is less centralized around Mienfoo now and it doesn't have to focus on reliably checking Scraggy. But yeah with Regenerator Eviolite is just an absolutely incredible item.
 
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Berry Juice: Fletchling (with investment, it can survive a surprising amount of physical hits, set up a SD, and heal back up to 100% with Berry Juice and simultaneously power up its priority Acrobatics.)
 
It is best to run eviolite on pokemon with reliable means of recovery, so off the top of my head Growlithe, Ponyta, Archen, Bulky Murkrow (sub roost), Cradily Lilleep, Foongus, and Frillish could be added to the list of eviolite mons. Even though Gligar has roost it can be used either way, as acrobatics gives it a reason to run berry juice. Misdreavus, Vulpix, and Munchlax are good examples of the middle ground, as Misdreavus and Vulpix can use Pain Split (and Vulpix w/ evio is a decent answer to Tangela when sleep powder is already used). Munchlax can use Eviolite Rest Talk or B Juice Recycle, even though Rest Talks seems inferior at first, it does allow Munchlax to function as a status absorber, which is something B Juice can't do. Bulky Meditite should also run Eviolite, as it can regain health with drain punch and evio helps back up its decent defensive typing. Also the more offensive the set you are running, the better berry juice becomes, as offensive mons shouldn't be taken anything but resisted or weak hits anyways. Also add Aron to the list of berry juice users for Raseri.
 
eviolite
ferroseed, scraggy

My general rule of thumb for if someone should use eviolite or not is if they have recovery. scraggy is probably self explainatory at this point because it has great bulk to take a lot of not fairy hits (it can take weak fighting hits also) and just bring it all back up with drain punch. it might not be the sweeper it once was, but it still a force to be reckoned with due to stab knock off spam and just being a bulky pantslizard.

ferroseed doesnt really have extra recovery. i mean sure it has leech seed, which i think is one of its best moves, but without protect i dont really call that recovery. i still do think that it needs eviolite though because with eviolite it can take so many hits its ridiculous. it IS a one mon out to carvahna and yanma, while it CAN actualyl take not stab fire moves most of the time. then it just uses one of its support moves to kick ass. also its bulk helps it use bullet seed effectively and just destroy sturdy juice mons cause you hit them out of sturdy even after the berry juice

berry juice
snubbull

basically snubbull is aready really bulky, especially with intimidate, but it ahs no way of recovering. berry jucie just gives it a lot of longevity on something that probably wnot be oneshotted anyway

middleground

yanma, wynaut

wynaut is very weird because of the amounto f options each item gives you. berry juice gives you the ability to take weak hits and guarantee the kill, while eviolite lets you take that big hit that no one likes and kill the one mon stopping your shit. this choice is basically 100% team dependent on what you want to get rid of

yanma honestly is a struggle to decide between either both these items as well as life orb. its stupidly versitile but im going to say its safe to assume speed boost varients use life orb because they need the added power. sub varients though have something to think about, because yanma actually has somewhat respectable bulk (the same as mienfoo), so it can actually take some weaker hits with eviolite. berry juice however lets it just spam sub for fun which i think is better but yeahh
 
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Koffing - Eviolite (Pain Split, RestTalk)
Zubat - Eviolite (Roost)

Onix, Aron, Pineco - Berry Juice (Sturdy)
Honedge - Berry Juice - It can potentially heal back to full health after it sets up a Swords Dance, and it doesn't have reliable recovery

Yanma - Middle Ground - Eviolite lets it tank some stronger priority moves, while Berry Juice can potentially get you back to full health. You can also set up more subs with Berry Juice.
 
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Here are the facts when choosing Eviolite (+1 Def/SpD) vs Berry Juice (20 HP).

1) Basically every single Pokemon has more inherent bulk with Berry Juice. Think about it: 20 HP is more than any Pokemon's +1 defenses would mitigate over a Pokemon's entire HP. The more naturally bulky a Pokemon is, the more Berry Juice's 20 HP is worth. So Berry Juice is almost always better.

2) Berry Juice has an even bigger advantage for Pokemon with Substitute since it allows almost double the Substitutes.

3) Moves like Acrobatics and abilities like Unburden are essentially requiring a one-use item, making Berry Juice once again far superior to Eviolite.

4) Eviolite makes a Pokemon bulkier for one attack. This sounds like a negative, but it's actually a positive point for Eviolite - some Pokemon may need to avoid simply being OHKOed to their job and Eviolite does a better job of that than Berry Juice.

5) As a Pokemon's HP would technically be "unlimited" with a form of recovery, Eviolite would actually be the better option, as Berry Juice's HP is less and less important the more times a Pokemon is able to recover. This isn't just for moves like Recover, Roost, or Rest. It's also for Pokemon who have Regenerator or viably use a strong Drain Punch or Giga Drain. Rest + Sleep Talk users are also among these Pokemon.

6) When Knocked Off, Eviolite takes less damage than Berry Juice.
 
I don't really agree that Berry Juice is almost always better. The huge thing to remember here is that while Berry Juice can add a shitton of bulk in the long-run, the Pokemon that use them are overall squishier as well. Less immediate bulk raises the chances of getting straight up OHKOed by some huge threats in the meta, including Life Orb Bunnelby and Shell Smash Tirtouga and Dwebble (though in some intances, Rock Blast's interactions with Berry Juice can come back to bite you). I've actually really enjoyed the overuse of Berry Juice because it makes really hard-hitting threats that much more powerful. 2HKOes can easily turn into OHKOes, and you really have to rely on Eviolite Pokemon or priority to take out some of the top threats that the meta has thrown at us this generation.

Looking at the OP, it's pretty clear that the best users of Berry Juice get some immediate benefit from the item. Gligar and Fletchling get enhanced bulk with the benefit of losing their item to power up Acrobatics later on, Sturdy Smashers get nearly guaranteed setup, and Pokemon with Unburden can activate the ability far more easily. One of the only Pokemon I have run Berry Juice on so far that doesn't immediately benefit from it like the aforementioned Pokemon do is Staryu, which appreciates the extra longevity that Berry Juice provides without being easily worn down throughout the match. Recover can take care of this if you can spare the moveslot, but the passive recovery that Berry Juice offers is just so much better. This is one of the few users of the item that doesn't benefit from it quite so obviously, but still appreciates it so much more than Eviolite.
 
I have been running a berry juice aron with success. Basically any sturdy user has a reason to use berry juice. In a game where ohkos are highly probable, it is nice to be able to take three hits in most situations.
 
My rule of thumb is always whether I see this Pokemon getting down below 50% more often than I see it getting OHKOed without Eviolite.

So, Sturdy Pokemon obviously get Berry Juice. Anyone with Sub: Berry Juice. Yanma or anyone else weak to rocks who does a lot of switching has a good argument for Berry Juice. Otherwise, I prefer the bulk imparted by Eviolite.
 
I'd have to agree that Berry Juice is much better on Yanma. Being able to tank weak priority attacks is great and all, but offsetting a massive 50% Stealth Rock weakness AND getting some free Substitutes seems like a pretty clear advantage to me.

Also, I think Chinchou may warrant middle ground, since it still has a decent RestTalk set. Then again, Tangela does give it trouble, so the offensive Berry Juice set is probably more worthwhile.

I can't really see why Pawniard is in middle ground, as there doesn't seem to be a clear advantage to using Eviolite. To reiterate atomicllamas's post, Pawniard has no recovery and will usually just be sweeping with Swords Dance, so I don't think the extra bulk would be really worth it.
EDIT: Alright, surviving Swirlix's Flamethrower and Gligar's Earthquake is definitely a serious merit. Middle ground no doubt.
 
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Pawniard is middle ground because of how versitle it is with its typing and stuff. you can use berry juice to set up on spritzee / tangela, or you can use eviolite to take the fire blast from swirlix. hell with eviolite its even possible to take a hit from gligar's earthquake. its all dependent on how you want it used and what hits you want it to soak up


236 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Pawniard: 26-32 (123.8 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Swirlix Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pawniard: 22-26 (104.7 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Swirlix Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


yanma has the same thing with swirlix. in fact basically every set up sweeper can take a hit from swirlix if they have evio cause honestly SWIRLIX ISNT VERY STRONG. the reason why we find swirlix so good is the over use of berry juice if anything tbqh, with more eviolite mons like porygon and lickitung becoming popular, it becomes much easier to check it
 
I personaly think that pawniward is a better eviolite user because with the combination of knock off+sucker punch you can with his decent physical bulk come in and revenge nearly ever physical sweeper in the tier including pokemon such as gligar and mix crow. Add this to the fact that he can also revenge quite a few special attackers including the god drewded swirlix (who is really easy to kill and wall btw) and smashers before they smash.
 
On Gligar I usually run Berry Juice, as I find it helps me against Yanma and other faster Pokémon that I know won't OHKO, as I use Acrobatics, which if Berry Juice was activated, and it usually is after an Air Slash from Yanma, will usually OHKO Yanma, and leave Gligar with full health. But to be fair Eviolite could probably avoid it going below 50% in the first place and so it can 2HKO Yanma anyways.
 
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Kingserperior said:
On Gligar I usually run Berry Juice, as I find it helps me against Yanma and other faster Pokémon that I know won't OHKO, as I use Acrobatics, which if Berry Juice was activated, and it usually is after an Air Slash from Yanma, will usually OHKO Yanma, and leave Gligar with full health. But to be fair Eviolite could probably avoid it going below 50% in the first place and so it can 2HKO Yanma anyways.
Click to expand...

actually with berry juice yanma does something like 70-80% with air slash, making gligar an easy kill for yanma trying to sweep end game. eviolite is much better if all you want to do is stop yanma because yanma takes enough from the acro anyway
 
Archen should be middle ground; it can utilize berry juice to boost up acro when under 50%. I mean, evio is better usally, but berry juice imo warrants a niche enough for it to be middle ground
 
I strongly believe Scraggy is better with Eviolite than Berry Juice, mainly because of its access to Drain Punch. I don't see why you can't go ahead and have a permanent boost to your defenses (Scraggy is already bulky, so Eviolite complements this well) and just heal off damage with your reliable STAB attack that's made even stronger after boosting with Dragon Dance. You don't need Berry Juice to be able to restore health in this case. Also, Knock Off can screw Scraggy up, sure, but it's 4x resisted and will honestly only give Scraggy a free turn to setup or smash something. Pawniard is the scariest user of Knock Off and Scraggy scares it to death. Scraggy is also one of the small handful of Pokemon that doesn't give a damn about Slowpoke.
559.png

Scraggy @ Eviolite
Ability: Shed Skin
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 60 Def / 212 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Iron Head / Ice Punch


If you're using Scraggy without Drain Punch, that's another story. But Drain Punch is far better than Berry Juice here, as it is a self-sufficient healing option that also deals considerable damage and is usable over and over. Scraggy is built to last throughout matches, not to heal one time and then stop being hard to kill.

Also, Spritzee should probably be added to the Eviolite list.
 
Use Eviolite when you:
  • Want to be able to not get OHKO'd by certain moves (e.g. +2 Tirtouga Stone Edge or LO Krow's BBird)
  • Have moves like Drain Punch, Slack Off, or Regenerator.
  • Are Knock Off tanker (e.g. Shellos)
Use Berry Juice when you:
  • Have Sturdy
  • Have Recycle
  • Have Unburden or Acrobatics
  • Tank moves that don't OHKO you without Eviolite
  • Can constantly keep momentum and pressure by not having to use moves like Roost (e.g. Gligar)
  • Are a bulky Pokemon without recovery means (e.g. Chinchou or Snubbull)
  • Have recoil moves (e.g. Murkrow)
 
There are some cases in which it's not so cut and dry on when to use Berry Juice or Eviolite, and I mean more than just grouping mons of this description into "Middle Ground". Team composition and the synergy that comes from defensive cores are also important factors in deciding which item is appropriate. It's certainly worth mentioning that Eviolite can be used to attain higher overall bulk even if you don't have means of recovery, if accompanied specifically by teammates that are bulky users of Wish. Berry Juice only activates one time, but Wish can be used consistently to not only keep teammates alive, but also to allow for safe switch-ins in most cases, so that the incoming teammate won't be at a considerable loss of health before it gets to move. This form of health maintenance definitely has a less offensive approach, as I felt this thread was generally leaning toward which item (Berry Juice or Eviolite) is better in a more immediately offensive position, but I feel that Wish definitely deserves a mention for its ability to provide longevity for teams that are not offensively based.

108.png

Lickitung @ Eviolite
Ability: Own Tempo
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 236 SDef / 156 Def
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Return / Earthquake / Dragon Tail

682.png

Spritzee @ Eviolite
Ability: Aroma Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 212 HP / 196 Def / 12 SAtk / 76 SDef / 12 Spd
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect / Calm Mind
- Aromatherapy / Calm Mind
- Moonblast


Lickitung and Spritzee are honestly the current metagame's top candidates for Wish passers that can allow for Eviolite to be held by bulky teammates that lack self-recovery. Lickitung makes an excellent partner for Snubbull, a bulky offensive mon that can tank the Fighting-type attacks that are the only thing Lickitung fears. Lickitung can also use its Protect + Wish combination in tandem with its impressive bulk to run an effective Toxic Stall set, one that can also act as a phazer with Dragon Tail and can work well in conjunction with entry hazards. Alternatively, Lickitung has access to Earthquake to hit both types that are immune to Toxic (Poison and Steel) for super effective damage. Spritzee partners well with Steel-types such as Ferroseed and Pawniard, as Spritzee can soak up the Fighting-type hits that are aimed at its Steel-type comrades and they take the Poison- and Steel-type moves aimed at Spritzee with no sweat.

There are other mons with access to Wish but are generally foregone in favor of the above two. Swirlix can work as a Fairy-type Wish passer, but this job is generally better left to Spritzee, and Swirlix has much better uses as an offensive setup mon; Flabebe functions alright as a specially defensive Fairy-type Wish passer, but its physical bulk leaves much to be desired and neither of its abilities have any function outside of Double Battles. Many other Fairy-types also get Wish, including Togepi, Cleffa, Igglybuff, and Ralts, but they don't have the bulk to effectively pull off this kind of set and are all largely outclassed by Spritzee for this role. Exeggcute can work, but it's better with a Harvest + Oran Berry set in most cases. Eevee, Pichu, Chingling, Skitty, Fennekin, Bagon, Pidove, and Smoochum have access to Wish, but simply do not have the defensive stats to effectively use it. The only other Little Cup Pokemon aside from Spritzee and Lickitung that has the stats to function well as a Wish passer without being outclassed by another mon of the same type is Drowzee.

096.png

Drowzee @ Eviolite
Ability: Insomnia
Level: 5
EVs: 156 Def / 196 SDef / 36 HP / 52 Atk / 20 Spd
Impish Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Zen Headbutt / Toxic
- Fire Punch / Toxic


Drowzee's high special bulk allows it to run Toxic Stall similarly to the way Lickitung does, but with the advantage of resisting Fighting-type attacks whereas Lickitung is weak to them. Zen Headbutt and Fire Punch hit the Poison- and Steel- types that are immune to Toxic, respectively, for super effective damage.
 
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I am surprised no one suggested eviolite for Larvesta yet;

666.png

Larvesta @ Eviolite
Ability: Flame Body
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 Atk / 156 Def / 36 Spd / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Morning Sun
- Wild Charge

This is the most basic set, designed to wall and burn various physical mons(pawniard,meditite,mienfoo,scraggy w/out shed skin and few others)


Here are some calcs showing why do I think it's that good - we can't forget about this precious burn chance!

196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Psycho Cut vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Larvesta: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO

We can just Morning Sun his damage and wait for burn, or if LO we can take the risk and try to ko with flare blitz.

212+ Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Larvesta: 8-12 (34.7 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
212+ Atk Tirtouga Waterfall vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Larvesta: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

After SS Aqua Jet still fails to ohko, but who keeps larvesta against this guy?

236+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Larvesta: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO

Larvesta can wall him after burn(like it can wall almost every phys mon without rock type moves),but this time i wouldn't bother with Morning Sun-KO him straightaway.
Waiting for burn and healing at the same time might seem too risky or even gimmicky, but there is nothing more satisfying than burned Meditite/Pawniard in opponent's team.

Larvesta can still cripple these mons with Berry Juice, but it already has reliable recovery in Morning Sun and Eviolite boosts its bulk to levels where it can really be tough to break through. Needs defog/rapid spin support though, but this exact set is very good in this metagame where Pawniards and Meditites are running rampant, and it shouldn't be overlooked.
 
Why haven't Tangela or Yanma been removed yet?

Also I believe Eviolite is the superior choice for Pawniard. It lets it survive certain super effective attacks such as Gligar's EQ or Swirlix's flamethrower, and it helps it live strong neutral attacks, like Missy's Dazzling Gleam. I don't think there are many times when Berry Juice lets you take a hit better than you would with Eviolite.
 
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