Bisharp

[Fuzznip]

Yeah, I haven't really seen much Swords Dance use on the Bisharp I've been up against nowadays. Pursuit works really well though due to the number of switches it forces and can seriously throw off your opponent.

 

[Jukain]

Agreeing with CM.

Okay, so I think the Sub slash should actually be removed. Here's a common scenario:

- Bisharp uses sub as something comes in.
- That 'something' probably walls it if the opponent is smart.
- Bisharp can't do crap, and is forced out. It just lost 25% of its health for nothing.

Every time I use Sub, I end up losing more than I gain. Most of the time, it just gets walled, and I'm sacrificing a slot that could be used for something much more useful.

Oh, and with Pursuit, please slash Dread Plate first.

 

[Colonel M]

Also agreeing with the Sub removal. Really in order to keep the pressure going with Sub you really want Swords Dance and, actually, Sub can even work against you to an extent (now Gyarados can switch into the Sub since it blocks Intimidate).

 

[alexwolf]

Personally, i prefer Swords Dance because without it, Bisharp can't wallbreak or sweep if the opponent doesn't spam Defog like an idiot.

 

[Colonel M]

Personally, i prefer Swords Dance because without it, Bisharp can't wallbreak or sweep if the opponent doesn't spam Defog like an idiot.

Against some teams wallbreaking can be difficult because Unaware Quagsire completely ignores Defiant / Swords Dance boosts. Pursuit adds to Bisharp's utility as a trapper and just makes those that it can trap to have a hell of a time trying to figure out what to do.

Seriously - Pursuit Bisharp makes me sweat bullets so hard when I use Latias it sucks.

 

[Ash Borer]

Swords Dance is still really, really good though. It lets you punish recover/protect stalling, it lets you clean up late game.. Pursuit sharp makes me sweat bullets, but Swords Dance does as well. It's really valuable as a Knock Off user, too as a +2 knock off vs an item holder is far strongr than 2 Knock Offs in a row. Some opponents may attempt to recover on the turn you knock off as the follow up knock off is much weaker. Swords Dance preserves their item, and then forces them to take max damage.

Pursuit can be the first slash, idc, I use it more myself because AEgislash is the most centralizing and over used poke in the meta so yeah

 

[Shroomisaur]

I'm glad to see some discussion about the 4th moveslot here, thank you! Just to weigh in on what's been suggested...

Also agreeing with the Sub removal. Really in order to keep the pressure going with Sub you really want Swords Dance and, actually, Sub can even work against you to an extent (now Gyarados can switch into the Sub since it blocks Intimidate).

I completely agree with both of you. If you look way back at my comments on page 1 you'll see that I've never liked Sub as a slash on Bisharp, but evil Fuzznip coerced me into it, what a bully! I will gladly move Sub to Moves since QC seems in agreement about that.

Against some teams wallbreaking can be difficult because Unaware Quagsire completely ignores Defiant / Swords Dance boosts. Pursuit adds to Bisharp's utility as a trapper and just makes those that it can trap to have a hell of a time trying to figure out what to do.

Seriously - Pursuit Bisharp makes me sweat bullets so hard when I use Latias it sucks.

Ok, so while Quagsire is a problem, I generally agree with Ash and Alex here in that SD is still seriously scary on Bisharp. Most good opponents won't just give you a free Defog boost when they see your Bisharp, so SD is important for providing sweeping opportunities when your opponent doesn't give a free boost. A Bisharp that can grab that +2 on a switch can be just as scary as a trapper. However at the same time I'm obviously a huge fan of Pursuit Bisharp, I've been using it for months and I'm glad to see it gaining popularity... both SD and Pursuit are incredibly good choices in the final slot and I would be perfectly happy either way. It's close but as Ash said the ability to trap Aegis is just so valuable, it's usually the strongest option in the last month or so. I can see the order change.

So just to confirm changes with QC: Send Sub to Moves, make the final slot "Pursuit / SD", and then as per Jukain 's suggestion make Blackglasses the first item slash. Speak now or forever hold... well, actually you guys'll probably just bump this a few days later in an attempt to drive me insane.

 

[Jukain]

Yo Shroomisaur

Since we have Pursuit as the first slash in slot 4, I'd really like to see Assault Vest as a main item slash, possibly even first. Reason being that it needs the bulk to switch in on the Latis. Normally, Bisharp takes ~75% from LO Latios Draco Meteor. Bisharp really needs the Speed, so we're not going to consider bulk investment as an option. AV with 4/0 investment takes ~half from the same attack, which means it can actually switch in and trap it safely. Latias is obviously even easier to deal with. AV is important for Bisharp to handle the #1 Pursuit targets in OU.

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

I disagree. Assault Vest, in almost every situation, is a largely inferior option to Blackglasses and Life Orb.

Even with the Special Defense boost granted by Assault Vest, Bisharp doesn't do much better against versions with Thunderbolt and absolutely no better against Earthquake or Hidden Power Fighting versions. It is situational at best, and the loss of a lot of firepower is usually not worth it.

Obligatory Calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Bisharp: 114-135 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- 25.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(significant-ish chance with no prior damage at all. considering that Thunderbolt is usually the safest move to throw around, this is pretty huge)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Bisharp: 307-364 (112.8 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Bisharp: 123-146 (45.2 - 53.6%)
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Bisharp: 156-187 (57.3 - 68.7%)
0 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 172-203 (63.2 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Basically, the only set which still doesn't 2HKO you every time is the Thunderbolt set if you haven't taken any kind of prior damage. At all. Latios can't exactly OHKO you anyway.

Latias is not a very relevant Pokemon in the current metagame as long as Latios is around. Its lower firepower makes Assault Vest even less necessary anyway.

Small investments in bulk are actually a very viable option, as lowering your speed to 230 or 220 isn't exactly going to get you outsped by major threats. Hell, I've even dropped my attack to 216 EVs with an Adamant nature before; most of these are actually preferable to losing the wonderful boost granted by Blackglasses, and should probably be mentioned as options in set comments.

Assault Vest is mostly useful to have a better check for Shadow Ball Ball Aegislash, SubToxic in particular, since Bisharp is it's greatest counter. Still not totally worth it since you do significantly less damage to it in return.

While you check these Pokemon better, you lose the O/2HKO potential against a lot of important threats. Part of the reason why Bisharp is so great is because its dark attacks, especially Knock Off and Sucker Punch are so amazingly powerful. By taking away its boosting item you lower its threat level by a great deal and gain an advantage in incredibly situational matchups in return. And let's face it: Bisharp isn't supposed to switch into Latios anyway. If you really need Latios removed, you're better off getting it in on something that's not an attack in the first place, or after something else dies. Assault Vest is just a very mediocre option that, in the end, probably hinders you more than it helps in way more situations. It might have a niche on some teams so I'm fine with mentioning it in OO, but there's no way I'll ever allow it to get on a main set. Ever.

Really though, make lowering Speed/Attack a bit a very realistic and useful option in set comments. This minor change in EVs is probably a way more useful suggestion for offensive teams than anything involving Assault Vest.

Some calcs where not having a boosting item actually matters; 216 EVs to prove my point

216+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 232-274 (83.4 - 98.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 199-235 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
216+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 220-259 (73.3 - 86.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 187-222 (62.3 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
216+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja if Sucker Punch is neutral: 228-268 (79.7 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 turn of Life Orb Damage
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja if Sucker Punch is neutral: 195-229 (68.1 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (and low chance with 1 round of Life Orb damage)
216+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 282-332 (87 - 102.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (irrelevant since there are few times where Aegislash won't be at full, but at least you have a chance to kill)
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 236-282 (72.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
216+ Atk Black Glasses Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on the switch: 217-256 (33.8 - 39.8%)
252+ Atk Bisharp Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on the switch: 186-219 (28.9 - 34.1%)
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 160-190 (24.9 - 29.5%)
(high chance to kill with Pursuit + SR + Fire Blast + Fire Blast while the latter needs pretty good rolls)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 117-138 (18.2 - 21.4%)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 208-247 (32.3 - 38.4%)
(Pursuit + Earth Power + Focus Blast has almost the same damage output and killing potential as the Zard Y calc; Pursuit + Focus Blast + Focus Blast is pretty much always a 3HKO even without SR [which is nice if your SR user/Bisharp matches up badly against their defogger or they can shut Bisharp down efficiently or whatever]
While the extra 5% against Chansey in particular may not seem like a lot, they make Bisharp + Special Attackers one of the few real banes of stall teams instead of just "very threatening".

max attack is a bit stronger and, for example, always OHKOs Thundurus-I after SR; it's obviously still the preferable option, but lowering your attack by a bit is still better than changing your item to something that is, in the end, mostly pointless

 

[nmitchell890]

If people are that bothered about trapping Latios, why not try Choice Scarf? It still outspeeds with Adamant and can revenge kill things without playing mind games with Sucker Punch. It differs from Choice Scarf Tyranitar in that it packs a different typing and higher defence, allowing it to trap different pokemon (Aegislash instead of Gengar) and different type coverage to revenge kill different pokemon. It packs Defiant to boost its Atk via Defog or Intimidate or Kings Shield and doesn't summon sandstorm to the field upon switching in, which can hinder more than help in some cases. Not to mention that Knock Off is way more powerful than Crunch. Thoughts?

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

Choice Scarf Bisharp is surprisingly usable but a very situational choice and even weaker than AssVest since you really want Jolly to outspeed Pokemon such as Alakazam and Greninja, which probably is the only really niche you have over ScarfTar. You are also wasting a lot of offensive potential gained by the ability to switch moves (Knock Off and Pursuit hit completely different targets), not to mention that you become very, very predictable and very vulnerable to Pokemon such as Terrakion and, funnily enough, Aegislash, one of the Pokemon you really want to switch into or at least threaten to a greatl deal. Sucker Punch fixes most of your speed issues anyway, and I'm sure ScarfTar would be a way less useful option if it actually got Sucker Punch itself. You're throwing away the strongest priority in OU and are replacing it with a Scarfer that, depending on the target, ranges from decently powerful to pathetically weak. Very rarely worth it, although Stone Edge surprise kills on Thundurus-I and MegaZard Y are nice (and I lost to exactly one of those kills in Smogon Tour before, so it's definitely not completely useless. Just really outclassed.)

You don't even OHKO Aegislash with Pursuit on the switch (it actually barely breaks the 50% mark) and already trap Latis well enough anyway. Pretty mediocre option overall.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Yep, completely agree with everything CBB had to say on the matter. AV is a decent choice but it's very situational (and Alex's spread is needed to get the full value from it). Even then Bisharp really needs that item boost, whether Blackglasses or LO, it's hugely important and that's been shown many times including the calcs above. This is even more true if you're using Pursuit over SD, Bisharp loses its ability to be a major threat. I'm happy with AV where it is. Also I strongly dislike CS Bisharp, I tried that a long while ago and it really misses the point about what makes Bisharp work. Choice items on Bisharp are not a good idea.

 

[PurpleCordial]

Hey

Mentions of Trevenant + Hydregion should be remove
Starmie should probably be changed to Greninja + get a mention for beating Quag w/ Grass Knot
Gourgeist should be changed to Gourgeist-S

The mention of the new Fairy type in the overview should prob b removed
Focus Sash and Grass Knot should probably get mentions somewhere

 

[Subject 18]

I'm not too keen on mention Grass Knot, sure it lets you break through Quagsire but its generally useless in every other match that doesn't feature it. The way I see it, Grass Knot Bisharp is a counterteaming set for a tournament environment and isn't nearly as useful when trying to break stall considering there are better options for that role. Assuming you do use GK, what do you drop? If people really want it mentioned I wouldn't say anything more then OO, as long as you explain what I just said about it.

Focus Sash is fine with me in Set Details/OO.

 

[Ash Borer]

Yeah grass knot is oo stuff. as s18 said you shpuld only use it if you're counterteaming.

 

[Srn]

Maybe Mega Scizor could get a mention in checks and counters for being able to set up on it freely?
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Mega Scizor: 99-118 (28.7 - 34.3%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Of course, this is only the pursuit variants, but some mega scizor carry superpower too.

 

[Ash Borer]

superpower mega scizor is probably Bisharp's best counter, so, yeah it definitely should be mentioned!

 

[PurpleCordial]

Oh yeah
There was supposed to be a maybe before GK.
I was just curious as it potential as a lure due to Quags recent surge. But when you really have to run KO and SP moveslots are very limited