So, for the record, never, ever use Sucker Punch against Zuluzukin. He will laugh in your face, even if he's within 10 or so HP of dying, and Drain Punch you and you will die.
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Bisharp
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So, for the record, never, ever use Kirikizan. So far I've seen him die to mach punch, die to mach punch, die to mach punch, and fail to kill Zuluzukin at 12 HP (he did 8) and then died to Drain Punch. But thanks for the heals, SD.
Did anybody try using a ghost type with Kirikizan? Maybe then you can stop complaining about mach punch.
Seems like Kirikizan might have decent synergy with Gallade. Kiri takes Ghost and Flying (as well as a fair few other neutral/resisted physical attacks) for Gallade, while the latter can take resisted Fighting moves (such as Mach Punch) and be built to take special hits. Still needs something for EQ and probably something better for STAB Fire moves but just throwing it out there.
Interesting theory. heatran is also a notable partner with his ability to take fire
blasts and for eq, this gives a lot more reason to use gengar with it.
blasts and for eq, this gives a lot more reason to use gengar with it.
Swords dance Sucker Punch is actually really good. This pokemon has huge potential in UU. STAB Sucker Punch (especially at +2) is really strong, and once you start sweeping teams you become harder to stop. It's a shame that he's so frail because it's too hard to pull off a Swords Dance. But if played correctly, this is a really good poke.
Kirikizan is actually quite good in this metagame. Skymin is everywhere, and Kirikizan resists both of its STABs with decent bulk. Also, should you switch in to Seed Flare (which Skymin always spams), you have an 80% chance to get a +2 boost to your attack with Competitive Spirit. Kirikizan also survives a Specs Latios Draco Meteor (252/0 takes 68.6% - 80.8%) and can easily OHKO any brand of Lati@s.
I don't know why anyone would consider Kirikizan "frail", 65/100/70 isn't too shabby, especially with HP investment, and with a fantastic set of resistances along with the threat of Sucker Punch forcing opponents to switch out, it really isn't too hard to pick up a Swords Dance. And once you have it, you can run through pretty much any weakened team.
Calcs:
+2 252 Adamant LO Sucker Punch vs.
(120/0) Roobushin - 49.6% - 58.3% (KO after some previous damage - that's pretty significant for what's probably Kirikizan's #1 switch-in)
(4/0) Garchomp - 105.6% - 124.3%
(252/4) Gliscor - 84.2% - 99.4%
Anything that doesn't resist Dark or isn't a Defensive wall is getting OHKOd, and most walls are slower, so they can be taken out by Brick Break or your third coverage move.
And as for the fear of Mach Punch - you'll out-speed most users, and can KO them if they're significantly weakened (Roob is by far the bulkiest user). Obviously you need something to counter them, but your screwed anyways if your team doesn't have a Roobushin counter, regardless of whether you're using Kirikizan.
I don't know why anyone would consider Kirikizan "frail", 65/100/70 isn't too shabby, especially with HP investment, and with a fantastic set of resistances along with the threat of Sucker Punch forcing opponents to switch out, it really isn't too hard to pick up a Swords Dance. And once you have it, you can run through pretty much any weakened team.
Calcs:
+2 252 Adamant LO Sucker Punch vs.
(120/0) Roobushin - 49.6% - 58.3% (KO after some previous damage - that's pretty significant for what's probably Kirikizan's #1 switch-in)
(4/0) Garchomp - 105.6% - 124.3%
(252/4) Gliscor - 84.2% - 99.4%
Anything that doesn't resist Dark or isn't a Defensive wall is getting OHKOd, and most walls are slower, so they can be taken out by Brick Break or your third coverage move.
And as for the fear of Mach Punch - you'll out-speed most users, and can KO them if they're significantly weakened (Roob is by far the bulkiest user). Obviously you need something to counter them, but your screwed anyways if your team doesn't have a Roobushin counter, regardless of whether you're using Kirikizan.
Whoops, didn't think of two priorities going off at the same time. Not sure why.
Anyway, those numbers are impressive, especially against Gliscor. I think most people's gripe with Kiri is his x4 Fighting weakness, though like you said, good prediction with Sucker Punch helps with that. He really needs some better coverage moves in Game 3, but for what he has to work with right now, he looks pretty good.
The only two Pokémon with Mach Punch that outspeed and pose a threat to Kiri are Breloom and Infernape. Breloom has the same Base Speed, so you'll probably be tying with him (provided he already Spored someone else on your team; otherwise, you shouldn't even be switching into him). Infernape is much faster and is a good sign to get the hell out, especially if he knows you're going to Sucker Punch. At that point, I assume he'll SD/NP, then Mach Punch you if he's running it. If not, I guess you could get a little gutsy and hope he tries to CC/FB you so you can Sucker Punch him. Again, you wouldn't be switching in on him and would probably send Kiri out to revenge or something. Meanwhile, the other two Mach Punchers that outspeed you are Hitmonchan and Ledian, who are… Hitmonchan and Ledian. Keep in mind that I'm just constructing scenarios and have not played a lick of Gen V yet.
I'll have to give Super Sentai a try when I actually get around to playing Gen V. Paradox, what set are you running?
Just bringing this back up. I want to know as well.
Anyway, those numbers are impressive, especially against Gliscor. I think most people's gripe with Kiri is his x4 Fighting weakness, though like you said, good prediction with Sucker Punch helps with that. He really needs some better coverage moves in Game 3, but for what he has to work with right now, he looks pretty good.
The only two Pokémon with Mach Punch that outspeed and pose a threat to Kiri are Breloom and Infernape. Breloom has the same Base Speed, so you'll probably be tying with him (provided he already Spored someone else on your team; otherwise, you shouldn't even be switching into him). Infernape is much faster and is a good sign to get the hell out, especially if he knows you're going to Sucker Punch. At that point, I assume he'll SD/NP, then Mach Punch you if he's running it. If not, I guess you could get a little gutsy and hope he tries to CC/FB you so you can Sucker Punch him. Again, you wouldn't be switching in on him and would probably send Kiri out to revenge or something. Meanwhile, the other two Mach Punchers that outspeed you are Hitmonchan and Ledian, who are… Hitmonchan and Ledian. Keep in mind that I'm just constructing scenarios and have not played a lick of Gen V yet.
I'll have to give Super Sentai a try when I actually get around to playing Gen V. Paradox, what set are you running?
Just bringing this back up. I want to know as well.
i've been using a banded set and i was able to make it work.
hihidaruma may seem like a better bander with its higher base speed and stab encouraged flareblitz. but 25% SR damage and common weaknesses wont make a sturdy bander especially if you are firing off blitzes.
kirikizan has the option of running moves that nullify its speed like sucker punch/pursuit and is alot sturdier with a resistance to SR.
and 4x weakness to fighting doesnt mean hes bad, he only has 3 weaknesses(just like hihidaruma) and 9 resistances 2 of which are 4x resisted and 2 immunities.
so that means toxic spike resistance too.
hihidaruma may seem like a better bander with its higher base speed and stab encouraged flareblitz. but 25% SR damage and common weaknesses wont make a sturdy bander especially if you are firing off blitzes.
kirikizan has the option of running moves that nullify its speed like sucker punch/pursuit and is alot sturdier with a resistance to SR.
and 4x weakness to fighting doesnt mean hes bad, he only has 3 weaknesses(just like hihidaruma) and 9 resistances 2 of which are 4x resisted and 2 immunities.
so that means toxic spike resistance too.
I use pretty much the set that's posted under the analysis section: Kirikizan. He also mentions Chople Berry, which allows you to shrug off Roobushin (Mach Punch does around 50% with Chople) and KO with Iron Head.
Gallade's not the best call for synergy, partly just because it's not very good. Kirikizan only has three weaknesses: Fire, Ground, and Fighting. Salamence or Gyarados shrug off all three, and are great at absorbing Fighting attacks with Intimidate, while Kirikizan takes Fire, Ice, Dragon, and Rock. I personally like using Gliscor to wall any Fighting type that switches in as well as handling some steels that resist Sucker Punch.
Edit:
I wouldn't run Band, just because a Banded Sucker Punch is huge set-up fodder, especially with only 8 PP. Also Kirikizan is completely different from Hihidaruma, there's really no comparison other than that they're both physically based.
Gallade's not the best call for synergy, partly just because it's not very good. Kirikizan only has three weaknesses: Fire, Ground, and Fighting. Salamence or Gyarados shrug off all three, and are great at absorbing Fighting attacks with Intimidate, while Kirikizan takes Fire, Ice, Dragon, and Rock. I personally like using Gliscor to wall any Fighting type that switches in as well as handling some steels that resist Sucker Punch.
Edit:
I wouldn't run Band, just because a Banded Sucker Punch is huge set-up fodder, especially with only 8 PP. Also Kirikizan is completely different from Hihidaruma, there's really no comparison other than that they're both physically based.
I've been wanting to test out Kirikizan for a long time, so I decided to try him out today under my testing alt (it's not called 'bologo-testing', I made it a bit less obvious. xD)
From my results, I seriously don't see how anyone can say this thing sucks. It's basically Absol with better typing, bulk, and even ability IMO. He also gets so many opportunities to set up on things thanks to the typing, and with his respectable bulk, he can live through quite a few hits too. Then again, I didn't face any Roopushin today, but even he'll still take a lot from a Swords Danced hit. Of course, this isn't to say that he's perfect, but there are ways to protect him from Priority.
This is the set I've been using:
Kirikizan @Dread Plate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
Competitive Spirit
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Brick Break
This Swords Dance variant may look weird, but it's how I was successful with Absol in OU last gen, and it works even better for Kirikizan. This not only takes advantage of Kirikizan's bulk + typing, but it also lets him bluff a Choice Band/Scarf, fake out setup pokemon, hit priority users before they can hit him, and encourage opponents to attack the Sub, which in turn eases Sucker Punch's prediction by a lot.
I personally like to set up on Nattorei, since he can't even break Kirikizan's Subs with Power Whip or Gyro Ball. Against more offensive teams, it just takes a little prediction to set up a Sub while they try to set up a stat boost, and then it puts a lot of pressure on the player and they instinctively attack just to get boned by Sucker Punch. Note that I didn't put Life Orb on the set because it takes away from Kirikizan's bulk, and Dread Plate lets him bluff a Choice item. If an opponent sees you use Sucker Punch and doesn't see anything happen after, they're going to think it's an awesome opportunity to set up. Just set up a Sub on them while they think they're being smart, and show them who's boss.
The only real problems I've come across with this set are Skarmory, Gliscor, and I probably will have a few problems with Roopushin. But at least this gets rid of the Breloom problem. I also kind of wish he had a better Fighting move like Close Combat or Focus Punch, but I guess Brick Break still does its job.
But seriously, just slap Sub on the set, and it eliminates a lot of his big problems with prediction and priority IMO, at least somewhat with priority.
In summary, don't fuck with the power rangers.
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Also, lol Paradox, that sounds like an awesome strategy of coming in on Skymin's Seed Flare for an auto-Swords Dance. It could possibly end up costing the Skymin team the game if it's executed well. xD
From my results, I seriously don't see how anyone can say this thing sucks. It's basically Absol with better typing, bulk, and even ability IMO. He also gets so many opportunities to set up on things thanks to the typing, and with his respectable bulk, he can live through quite a few hits too. Then again, I didn't face any Roopushin today, but even he'll still take a lot from a Swords Danced hit. Of course, this isn't to say that he's perfect, but there are ways to protect him from Priority.
This is the set I've been using:
Kirikizan @Dread Plate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
Competitive Spirit
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Brick Break
This Swords Dance variant may look weird, but it's how I was successful with Absol in OU last gen, and it works even better for Kirikizan. This not only takes advantage of Kirikizan's bulk + typing, but it also lets him bluff a Choice Band/Scarf, fake out setup pokemon, hit priority users before they can hit him, and encourage opponents to attack the Sub, which in turn eases Sucker Punch's prediction by a lot.
I personally like to set up on Nattorei, since he can't even break Kirikizan's Subs with Power Whip or Gyro Ball. Against more offensive teams, it just takes a little prediction to set up a Sub while they try to set up a stat boost, and then it puts a lot of pressure on the player and they instinctively attack just to get boned by Sucker Punch. Note that I didn't put Life Orb on the set because it takes away from Kirikizan's bulk, and Dread Plate lets him bluff a Choice item. If an opponent sees you use Sucker Punch and doesn't see anything happen after, they're going to think it's an awesome opportunity to set up. Just set up a Sub on them while they think they're being smart, and show them who's boss.
The only real problems I've come across with this set are Skarmory, Gliscor, and I probably will have a few problems with Roopushin. But at least this gets rid of the Breloom problem. I also kind of wish he had a better Fighting move like Close Combat or Focus Punch, but I guess Brick Break still does its job.
But seriously, just slap Sub on the set, and it eliminates a lot of his big problems with prediction and priority IMO, at least somewhat with priority.
In summary, don't fuck with the power rangers.
--
Also, lol Paradox, that sounds like an awesome strategy of coming in on Skymin's Seed Flare for an auto-Swords Dance. It could possibly end up costing the Skymin team the game if it's executed well. xD
Haha yeah Skymin is the best thing that's ever happened to Kirikizan.
I really like your set, especially Dread Plate. I was caught up in the decision of LO vs Leftovers/Chople Berry, I loved the power but hated the loss of bulk. I tried running a Sub+3 Attacks set before Swords Dance, but it never really was powerful enough without SD, Sub+SD is an interesting compromise I'll definitely try out.
To be honest I originally just used Kirikizan as a Skymin switch-in, but with a SD Kirikizan can tear through a ton of Pokemon, it makes a fantastic sweeper and revenge killer.
I really like your set, especially Dread Plate. I was caught up in the decision of LO vs Leftovers/Chople Berry, I loved the power but hated the loss of bulk. I tried running a Sub+3 Attacks set before Swords Dance, but it never really was powerful enough without SD, Sub+SD is an interesting compromise I'll definitely try out.
To be honest I originally just used Kirikizan as a Skymin switch-in, but with a SD Kirikizan can tear through a ton of Pokemon, it makes a fantastic sweeper and revenge killer.
It's a bit gimmicky, but Chople Berry Metal Burst can get surprise KOs on things that want to Mach Punch you to death. Even if they don't use a priority fighting move, 0 Speed IV Brave Kirikizan is 130 speed, so most things will outspeed him. Unfortunately, he's a bit faster than Roob with no speed EVs.
holy crap it's protoman!
Just nitpicking, wouldn't Kirikizan die to any Special Fire attack?
Obviously that was a typo, I had just written above that Kirikizan was weak to fire attacks... Though to be fair, Kirikizan still has surprising bulk on the special side: 252/0 Kirikizan takes 66.5% - 78.4% from 252 Timid LO Skymin's HP Fire.
zfs said:
If you need to deal with Roobushin, just run Psycho Cut. I haven't actually tried it yet, but if you hit Roob on the switch in it'll do 58.3% - 68.8%, weak enough for you to Sucker Punch it for the KO after a Swords Dance when you switch in again. If you're running Chople Berry instead of Life Orb, you don't always OHKO after stealth rocks, doing 89.2% - 105.5% at +2.
To be fair though, it doesn't do a ton more damage than STAB Iron Head, which unboosted will do 49.6% - 58.5%, and boosted will always KO with SR.
why not swap Stone edge/SD for Shadow Claw??? This way, you have maximum coverage (although without STAB) with Fight/Ghost type???
Because Kirizikan has Night Slash, which gets STAB and the same critical hit ratio as Shadow Claw does, making it a very bad inferior option. To a more practical extent, Sucker Punch should deal more damage to Pokemon who wants to break Kirizikan's substitutes, so non-STAB type moves that don't offer new coverage shouldn't be considered. I especially like Bogolo's set just because it takes advantage of Kirizikan's vulnerability, though prediction is required for opponent Substitute users (sigh, Skymin...)
I've used Kirikizan, and it's...underwhelming. The thing is, it has exactly the same Attack as Honchkrow, shares STAB Sucker Punch with it, and has crappy other moves. Honchkrow gets Superpower instead of Brick Break, Brave Bird (which KO's Roob and Zuru, 2 of Kirikizan's best counters) instead of Iron Head. It misses out on Swords Dance, but gets Heat Wave to tear up Skarmory (doing a decent 60%) and Nattorei. Oh, and it's faster.
Kirikizan's problem is that it's just a tad too slow, since base 70 just ties with too much stuff (Honchkrow has the critical base 71, which allows you to get the drop on a ton of stuff, especially Breloom) and that it can't do anything apart from Sucker Punch. It's secondary STAB and coverage moves are both really weak, and it has to compete with Doryuzuu for the Mach Punch weak place on the team.
I agree that the Band set is probably its best set, since the extra oompff turns Kirikizan into a very dangerous revenge killer, doing good damage to even Doryuzuu, not to mention getting rid of Salamence/Garchomp/that big ass new dragon/Skymin. Yes, being locked into Sucker Punch is bad, but it's better than to be swept.
Kirikizan's problem is that it's just a tad too slow, since base 70 just ties with too much stuff (Honchkrow has the critical base 71, which allows you to get the drop on a ton of stuff, especially Breloom) and that it can't do anything apart from Sucker Punch. It's secondary STAB and coverage moves are both really weak, and it has to compete with Doryuzuu for the Mach Punch weak place on the team.
I agree that the Band set is probably its best set, since the extra oompff turns Kirikizan into a very dangerous revenge killer, doing good damage to even Doryuzuu, not to mention getting rid of Salamence/Garchomp/that big ass new dragon/Skymin. Yes, being locked into Sucker Punch is bad, but it's better than to be swept.
Sorry for the bump.
Maybe pairing Kirikizan with Lati@s would work best, since they provide perfect resists for each other and can also wear down threats pretty well. It sucks that his best fighting-type move is Brick Break, but maybe they'll fix that with some move tutors next game.
Maybe pairing Kirikizan with Lati@s would work best, since they provide perfect resists for each other and can also wear down threats pretty well. It sucks that his best fighting-type move is Brick Break, but maybe they'll fix that with some move tutors next game.
I just laughed out loud reading the above conversation, because I had no idea Honchrow trolled Kirikizan in terms of speed. Hilarious to me.
I'm biased towards Honchkrow because I've used it a ton and it has so much more to offer, in my opinion: it can hit from the special side, it has harder hitting moves, better coverage, etc. It's arguably easier to switch in, as well, since it can switch into any EQ.
The only thing that Kirikizan has is better bulk and a steel-typing (hence, a resistance to Stealth Rock; it still exists). I mean, Kirikizan is much more like Absol than Honch.
They both get wrecked by Mach Punch, at least :D But I think with proper support (just like Absol) Kirikizan can own stuff in UU or wherever it ends up.
I'm biased towards Honchkrow because I've used it a ton and it has so much more to offer, in my opinion: it can hit from the special side, it has harder hitting moves, better coverage, etc. It's arguably easier to switch in, as well, since it can switch into any EQ.
The only thing that Kirikizan has is better bulk and a steel-typing (hence, a resistance to Stealth Rock; it still exists). I mean, Kirikizan is much more like Absol than Honch.
They both get wrecked by Mach Punch, at least :D But I think with proper support (just like Absol) Kirikizan can own stuff in UU or wherever it ends up.
This guy really wants Hi-Jump kick/ Superpower. His highest BP move outside of giga impact is STAB iron head, 80 before STAB, 120 after. His biggest let down is low BP moves. brick break may be for coverage, but it's base power is a big let down. With over 14 new fighting types this gen, including Roobushin and Kojondo, that 4X weakness is screaming "Mach punch/Vacuum wave!". Maybe if he got the elemental punches/ wild volt he could see more use, but I have a hard time picturing him with incredible Usage in OU. He might be BL
But partnering with a Ghost really helps against this weakness and with the 4x resistance to Pursuit you don't worry about being Pursuit killed
He pairs perfectly with specs Chandelure...or scarf Gothitelle for those who are squeamish about using Chandelure and rely on STAB Psychic to take out those threats. Specs Gothitelle for those who have other solid breloom counters if you want the easy 1hko on conkeldurr.