Blizzaga! - Hail Discussion Thread

[tehy]

Well kefka, the thing about sable is that he can still fit just about any annoyance move ever, combined with prankster, and hard-wall standard CM clus. Missing WOW is annoying, but he just disables and screws with so many threats that it's ridiculous. As for LOkazam, that's a really lame check, even as checks go, since you can only get it in on volc with perfect prediction, and bulky ones with defense investment might not even care.

 

[Honus]

Honestly, LO Alakazam seems like a very situational check to Volcarona, since Tehy said, you have to predict the switch. Even if you do and hit it with Psyshock, you're only doing 80.06% - 94.53% to offensive variants and 49.32% - 58.31% to Bulky DD Variants, so both usually demand that SR be up, in order to OHKO. This isn't to say that more offensively oriented Hail Teams are defenseless against Volcarona, Bulky DD Gyarados is a good option for handling it, as is Offensive Heatran variants in conjunction with Stealth Rock, and just keep forcing Volc out until it dies to SR Damage or is in range for Heatran to finish it off, although this plan could easily be compromised by way of Morning Sun or Hidden Power Ground being on Volcarona's set.

 

[Xephyr]

You described a counter.

Check =/= Counter

Alakazam can check Volcarona(assuming LO Psyshock OHKOs offensive variants since I haven't calculated it yet) by switching in as it kills something, me using Volt Switch/U-turn, or via a double switch.

Great Check.

What? This still doesn't make sense. Most of the time when Volcarona is killing things, it'll have +1 under its belt, and it'll be outspeeding you for the effortless OHKO anyway. Besides, LO Psyshock doesn't even OHKO. If Alakazam is your only "answer" to Volcarona (even though it's about as bad of a check as I could imagine) then your team has some issues that need fixed.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

Game Freak screwed Hail over when they failed to make it raise the defense of Ice types by 50% the way that Sand raises the Special Defense of Rock types by 50%.

 

[qwert10]

Game Freak screwed Hail over when they failed to make it raise the defense of Ice types by 50% the way that Sand raises the Special Defense of Rock types by 50%.

I guess it would be useful because any fighting type will have a fun time with said ice types by brick breaking them all and a 50% defence up would be useful, though what can I say as I run a sun team.

 

[Molk]

after trying out hail in the lower tiers, i find that balanced hail teams are quite good, Blizzspam opposing pokemon, stall out anything you cant kill. I used subsplit rotom-F to good effect, the coverage, the sheer power of a life orb blizzard, as well as the immunity to spikes were all assets to rotom. i also tried duosion (this is UU,RU,And NU) and it was able take on things that hail had trouble with, i'd imagine reuniclus would be the same way.

 

[NoUserName]

I think Taunt Jellicent is a good check of Volcarona. The phantom jellyfish resists both STAB of the moth. But I don't know how much damage the moth +2 Sp Def takes to Scald Jellicent. Due the moth is faster, it can Quiver Dance every 3 turns and win in the long run.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Honestly, LO Alakazam seems like a very situational check to Volcarona, since Tehy said, you have to predict the switch. Even if you do and hit it with Psyshock, you're only doing 80.06% - 94.53% to offensive variants and 49.32% - 58.31% to Bulky DD Variants, so both usually demand that SR be up, in order to OHKO. This isn't to say that more offensively oriented Hail Teams are defenseless against Volcarona, Bulky DD Gyarados is a good option for handling it, as is Offensive Heatran variants in conjunction with Stealth Rock, and just keep forcing Volc out until it dies to SR Damage or is in range for Heatran to finish it off, although this plan could easily be compromised by way of Morning Sun or Hidden Power Ground being on Volcarona's set.

A couple things.
1. I just said it COULD check Volc, not that I rely on it to do so since that would mean auto-lose. Also, I find offensive variants just die too quickly with Hail + Lefties and my team can handle them just fine. Bulky variants are what scare me. Just gotta be a bit careful around those.

2. Xephyr, so far you've done nothing but criticize so wtf. When did I say it was my only way of beating Volcarona? Never. Read above.

Btw, it doesn't need to be able to switch in directly to be a check.


3. That Jynx seems interesting and I'll see if Jellicent works well for me.
I just haven't had much luck using bulky waters not named Walrein. The lack of Lefties recovery is pretty annoying.

 

[Razza]

if you are having volcarona problems, an endeavour sash mamoswine makes a great backup check to things like volcarona, cm reuniclus and smashpassteams, it is very effective, a set of stealth rock, endeavour, ice shard and eq

Also that froslass set you use could utilise some spikes to good effect, also relying on snow cloak and sub hax isnt a very good plan to win battles

also kefka tone down your ego a little bit, it makes reading this thread rather less informative and interesting than it could be when you reply to almost every single post with a weak counterargument

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

if you are having volcarona problems, an endeavour sash mamoswine makes a great backup check to things like volcarona, cm reuniclus and smashpassteams, it is very effective, a set of stealth rock, endeavour, ice shard and eq

Also that froslass set you use could utilise some spikes to good effect, also relying on snow cloak and sub hax isnt a very good plan to win battles

also kefka tone down your ego a little bit, it makes reading this thread rather less informative and interesting than it could be when you reply to almost every single post with a weak counterargument

No offense, but Endeavor Sash Mamoswine seems pretty bad. Spinning isn't easy and a single layer of...anything, and Mamoswine's Sash becomes useless and he can no longer check those important threats.

I tried Spikes, but I prefer Taunt to stop more hazards, Roar, etc. and if Garchomp can hax his way to victory, so can Froslass especially since I've seen it happen so many times already.

My ego? Well, lets see.
Tehy started saying quite a few things about Hail. I replied with what things Hail could do in response and how Abomasnow isn't dead weight.

I said Alakazam can somewhat check Volcarona if necessary. Xephyr replied saying it can't check it. I replied back telling him what I believe was a check.

He replied:

If Alakazam is your only "answer" to Volcarona (even though it's about as bad of a check as I could imagine) then your team has some issues that need fixed.

I was just defending what I said. Alakazam, by definition of a check, can check Volcarona. Karpman just said the exact same thing as Xephyr, but in a more...constructive(Right word for this?) manner as he also supplied some pokemon that be used in more offensive Hail. He was being more of a part to the thread(No offense, Xephyr, but come on...) instead of just posting to criticize a random sentence.

I don't see them as "weak counter arguments" when I really haven't seen them refuted yet. I also don't see how the problem is my ego as I'm just defending my opinion on a certain pokemon, which I believe is just part of a discussion.
- Something is posted by user1849
- User33653 posts a refutation to the above
- user1849 defends his opinion/set/etc.
- Discussion continues

 

[TM13IceBeam]

For Zam vs. Chansey, I've tried using it to beat Chansey...

needless to say, I failed, even when I had Psyshock (it dealt only like 38% with Eviolite on, meaning that it could just softboiled back to full hp with decent prediction and use the free turns to 3hko with ST). I fail to see how LO + 4 attacks Zam is actually beating Chansey when you can't even 2HKO it, while it can cripple you with TWave then go to town...

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

For Zam vs. Chansey, I've tried using it to beat Chansey...

needless to say, I failed, even when I had Psyshock (it dealt only like 38% with Eviolite on, meaning that it could just softboiled back to full hp with decent prediction and use the free turns to 3hko with ST). I fail to see how LO + 4 attacks Zam is actually beating Chansey when you can't even 2HKO it, while it can cripple you with TWave then go to town...

Did I say Chansey? Then I apologize because there's no way that Zam is beating Chansey. Blissey however, gets 2HKO'd IIRC.

Btw, was trying out Charge Beam/Blizz/Sub/HP...Ground? Regice. Swept an entire Rain team and survived a Terrakion's CC.
Not saying it rocks or anything, but that was just an epic moment for me.

 

[Delko]

Btw, do you guys think a "bulky" Substitute Kyurem could work? Not that he'll be actually bulky, but that he might be able to invest a bit more in HP and offenses.
Blizzard/Focus Miss/HP Fire/Sub?

I run a 56 HP / 236 SAtk / 216 Spe with a Modest nature and Leftovers. 56 HP is all the bulk you need really as it gives you 405 HP, enough to let the Sub survive a S-Toss/ N-Shade and to let Kyurem switch into SR 5 times. Weaker resisted attacks like Volt Switch, Scald, etc don't even break the Sub. The Speed is needed to outspeed Lucario, Dragonite etc while the SAtk investments provides enough to 2HKO most defensive things (Quagsire, Rotom-W, Forretress, etc). Substitute coupled with Pressure also makes it easier to outstall low PP moves like Fire Blast.

For moves I use Blizzard / Dragon Pulse / Focus Blast / Substitute which is more then enough. A powerful Dragon STAB is always useful imo.
This set works well with Tentacruel, who provides Spin and Toxic Spikes support (to makes sure Kyurem can get past Blissey, Chansey etc).

 

[Nix_Hex]

I'd hate to bring up Zam vs. Volcarona... I did a calculation of Bulky Volcarona (224 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD / 24 Spe) vs. Timid Specs Psyshock and it's quite an overestimate (I used Doug's calculator so the calculations aren't completely accurate but i gave Alakazam 135 Base Attack, 252 Attack EVs, Choice Band, Jolly nature, and had it use a Psychic Physical 80 move). It does ~47-53% with Specs (rarely a 2HKO, not like it matters since Bug Buzz OHKOes Alakazam by a longshot). Timid does outspeed Volcarona after one Quiver Dance, but unless it's packing Hidden Power Rock (82.8% - 98.1%), it has to wait for Hail to do its job. But If you're running 252 Spe Timid on Volcarona, it will outspeed Alakazam if it Quiver Dances on the switch and absolutely murder it. If Alakazam is running Choice Scarf, it will outspeed +1 Volcarona and hit it with HP Rock for 65.4% - 76.9% then die.

tl;dr why is Alakazam even mentioned as a check/counter (semantics) to Volcona?

edit: Choice Scarf Alakazam vs. Timid 4 HP Volcarona (or whatever defensive stat it runs, it's inconsequential)

Psyshock: 61.5% - 72.4%
Hidden Power Rock 65.4% - 76.9%

Yeah, Volcarona wins bar a crit.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

I'd hate to bring up Zam vs. Volcarona... I did a calculation of Bulky Volcarona (224 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD / 24 Spe) vs. Timid Specs Psyshock and it's quite an overestimate (I used Doug's calculator so the calculations aren't completely accurate but i gave Alakazam 135 Base Attack, 252 Attack EVs, Choice Band, Jolly nature, and had it use a Psychic Physical 80 move). It does ~47-53% with Specs (rarely a 2HKO, not like it matters since Bug Buzz OHKOes Alakazam by a longshot). Timid does outspeed Volcarona after one Quiver Dance, but unless it's packing Hidden Power Rock (82.8% - 98.1%), it has to wait for Hail to do its job. But If you're running 252 Spe Timid on Volcarona, it will outspeed Alakazam if it Quiver Dances on the switch and absolutely murder it. If Alakazam is running Choice Scarf, it will outspeed +1 Volcarona and hit it with HP Rock for 65.4% - 76.9% then die.

tl;dr why is Alakazam even mentioned as a check/counter (semantics) to Volcona?

edit: Choice Scarf Alakazam vs. Timid 4 HP Volcarona (or whatever defensive stat it runs, it's inconsequential)

Psyshock: 61.5% - 72.4%
Hidden Power Rock 65.4% - 76.9%

Yeah, Volcarona wins bar a crit.

I was assuming SR, since well...don't we always assume SR since it's so easy to set up?
Either way, everyone should carry at least two Volcarona checks if possible(In Hail).

 

[Nix_Hex]

If you don't carry Rapid Spin or Magic Bounce with Volcarona, you are begging for trouble. Morning Sun might save it (does it heal 50% like normal or does hail screw that up?)

edit: the reason I slam Alakazam is because it seems like the most random ass thing you could even mention, when you should be running Stealth Rock and hoping they don't have a means of getting rid of it. Tentacruel could mess with it a bit while resisting Volcarona's STAB attacks.

 

[Cshadow]

Hail halves Morning Sun's HP recovery.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

If you don't carry Rapid Spin or Magic Bounce with Volcarona, you are begging for trouble. Morning Sun might save it (does it heal 50% like normal or does hail screw that up?)

edit: the reason I slam Alakazam is because it seems like the most random ass thing you could even mention, when you should be running Stealth Rock and hoping they don't have a means of getting rid of it. Tentacruel could mess with it a bit while resisting Volcarona's STAB attacks.

Well, with Froslass, Chandelure, or Jellicent, stopping the Rapid Spin isn't exactly hard x_x
Espeon can stop the SR though.

The reason I defend it is because it can work. It's not supposed to be your dedicated anything. Somewhat checking Volcarona after SR is more like an added bonus. With LO, sky-high Sp.Attack, and being able to hit most things(Like T-tar, who IIRC, can't take a Focus Blast) it's very usable in Hail.

 

[Nix_Hex]

It can't beat 252 Timid +1 Volcarona unless it carries a Focus Sash. It seems like a waste of a super powerful Pokemon to me.

p.s. Scarf Terrakion is the ultimate Volcarona counter, assuming Stone Edge doesn't miss.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

It can't beat 252 Timid +1 Volcarona unless it carries a Focus Sash. It seems like a waste of a super powerful Pokemon to me.

p.s. Scarf Terrakion is the ultimate Volcarona counter, assuming Stone Edge doesn't miss.

Hence it being just a "somewhat check".
Just an added bonus that it can come in on a +0 Volcarona and do some decent damage to it to stop it from sweeping.

Yea, Terrakion is a beast. That thing just rips everything apart.

 

[TCLeNoir]

Personally, in my hail team.
I use a Trick Room Reniculus with Glaceon.
Since Glaceon won't be out-running much with her speed, so Trick Room is ideal for her

 

[ssbbm]

Hence it being just a "somewhat check".
Just an added bonus that it can come in on a +0 Volcarona and do some decent damage to it to stop it from sweeping.

Yea, Terrakion is a beast. That thing just rips everything apart.

/:

just because i can outspeed and ohko you doesn't make me a check, unless you're saying that salamence is a check to dragonite...

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

/:

just because i can outspeed and ohko you doesn't make me a check, unless you're saying that salamence is a check to dragonite...

I'd like for this to end and the Hail discussion to continue, but if you insist...could you just give me YOUR definition of a check?

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Tried that SubKyurem set...I'm amazed at the results :o
Stalled out Stone Edge over there, got a pokemon down to low HP due to Hail + SubSpam and was able to OHKO back, etc.

Awesome set.
I just wish we had a bulky Water(With no secondary Ice typing) that had ice Body :(