My bad. Standard offensive Chesnaughts currently running around are tending to use Jolly with 252 attack/ speed, and I was assuming Adamant with the same spread. Nonetheless, whilst you force a switch out, you can't afford to do it on several occasions. The opponent only needs to wear you down to the 80% HP range before you're inside KO range for +2 MP. All that takes is one switch in against RT or MP.
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Pokémon Breloom
- Thread starter Ruffles
- Start date
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A counter forces a switch out, or straight up KOs, while surviving to do so. Breloom cannot attack it or it dies, so it can come in as many times as it needs to in order to force out Breloom. There are no real beneficial exchanges in this matchup. If Breloom attacks Chesnaught after that SD, it dies. If it hits and runs, then Chesnaught can just Synthesis it away, if it needs to. Also, Breloom can only do 60-70% with a SD, as in the calcs I posted.
It's not a bad thing to have a hard counter, you know. Most good pokemon still have one or two.
The only set Breloom should ever be running in this meta is the Focus sash set. He simply lacks the type coverage to run SD sets, and spore nerf hurts.
Breloom @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Tomb
- Mach Punch
The Sash set is simply amazing with the new Rock Tomb buff, giving much better and reliable coverage than Stone Edge did.
Breloom @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Tomb
- Mach Punch
The Sash set is simply amazing with the new Rock Tomb buff, giving much better and reliable coverage than Stone Edge did.
You lose out to Gourgeist with that set, as well as Chesnaught(even more so than normal sets).
Chestnaught seems a pretty good counter to the Technician set but how does he fair against the others? While Technician Loom imo is the best set for Loom to run Sub Punch and maybe even a Bulk Up set are still viable in OU.
Sub Punch will always be viable on Loom due to being able to hit really hard and the ability the set up Subs easier than most Fighting types, plus the healing Poison Heal provides. I don't have the damage calculator to do the calcs but I imagine Chestnaught would be 2hit Ko'ed by Focus Punch making it more of a check than a counter.
Bulk Up was good in the later parts of BW but seemed to disappear with the power creep of BW2. However this gen with the special nerf Bulk Up Loom can take those random super effective HP better as well as neutral special hits. Talonflame would be a big problem but if your running this guy you should have team mates to help against him. I also imagine Chestnaught would make a pretty good counter until Loom got to +2 or something.
SubPunch: 2HKO isn't an accurate statment. It would get one Punch, but could not finish the job. Chesnaught would switch in on the Sub, get smacked in the second turn while destroying the Sub, and then kill you dead with a LO Poison Jab. You always move last with Focus Punch, so it's hardly reliable when dealing with something like Chesnaught. The real problem is the Chesnaught has Bulk Up and Synthesis, and could run a Bulk Up set on you, which wastes away at your PP while shrugging you off completely. It can even stall with Bulk Up, Spikey Shield, and lefties. So, still a counter. Also, Seed Bomb is blocked by Bullet Proof, so you have nothing after Focus Punch goes away.
And I just went over Bulk Up. BULoom loses against BUNaught as Chensaught ends up being very bulky and starts outpacing your defense stat very fast.
Chestnaught and Gourgeist will not be relevant in OU, so it is pointless to bring them up. They are extreme setup bait.
107 Atk is enough to be relevant on Chesnaught as it has a good movepool(while not crazy strong), and it turns out that Gourgeist is doing quite well so far. Many UU pokemon are used in OU and are relevant. Heck, even some NU pokemon can be relevant. Also, I was bringing up counters to Breloom, which IS relevant.
I agree, and have already mentioned Gourgeist as a hard counter. I just don't agree that Chesnaught is going to be one. It could be one, but it'd have to specialise to such an extent in order to become one that it'd render itself largely useless at anything else.
Let's consider what Chesnaught needs to be able to 'switch in as many times as it needs'. First, you have to be able to OHKO Breloom. If you can't, Breloom 2HKOs you with a +2 Mach Punch. This means you need Adamant with a Life Orb, Poison Jab, and 252 attack EVs. That's not all, though. You also have to be able to heal off the damage Breloom might inflict on your switch in, since otherwise, he simply wears you down. You switch in and take 10-35% depending on what he throws your way. You retaliate as he switches out and lose a further 10% from LO recoil. The next time he switches in, you're in his KO range and you can't counter him any more. So you need Synthesis to really function as a counter, since without it you get worn down way too quickly. So Adamant, LO, Poison Jab and Synthesis.
This leaves you with 2 moveslots left, which means you're left with an unpleasant choice. Forgo one of Chesnaught's two STABs, leaving you helpless against at least one of OU's myriad of popular walls (if you forgo fighting, you can't scratch the likes of Forretress, Skarmory, Scizor, Mega Mawile, etc, and if you forgo grass you can't do jack to Hippowdon, can't even damage Aegislash, are setup bait for Reuniclus, are hopeless against bulky waters, etc), or forgo a stat booster, leaving you... also unable to take on any of the myriad of popular walls.
Sure, you can take on Breloom, but that's really about all. With Breloom taking a definite dip in popularity, are we seriously suggesting that any player worth his salt run an inferior Chesnaught set - one that is likely to provide setup bait for the 5-6 much more common defensive Pokemon that every team will run - for the sole purpose of countering it?
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Chesnaught is not a Check for Breloom because of those reasons:
1- All Chesnaught's I've been seeing have this move pool:
Seed Bomb / Wood Hammer
Hammer Arm / PuP
Spiky Shield / Leech Seed / Pain Split
Substitute / PuP / Bulk Up
I've never seen a Poison Jab on a Chesnaught.
2- You are only counting the regular Life Orb Technician Breloom (Which is out of date IMO) I'd recommend Sub with Technician or Scarf, Sub + Poison Heal is good too
252 Atk Life Orb Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chesnaught: 269-317 (70.78 - 83.42%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Spikes, In My Opinion, in this gen you are seeing Spikes more than Stealth Rock (On Showdown too) because of the following reasons: Klefki and Greninja, which are clearly everywhere.
252 Atk Life Orb Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chesnuaght: 269-317 (70.78 - 83.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, in this case or if you had no hazards at all: Chesnaught breaks sub and next turn is yours to kill him.
3- In some of you calcs, you had been counting Breloom using Mach Punch, now why would breloom use Mach Punch? Being faster than Chesnaught he has: Focus Punch if he had Sub, Power Up Punch twice (if he had sub), Force Palm (not to mention 2 of it if he had sub).
4- A Check is a pokemon that can switch in to Breloom, take entry hazrd damage, take hit, take a hit next turn, and OHKO Breloom with enough health that he can survive any recoil (If any) in ALL of Breloom's sets + Counting the chance of say, not moving due to paralysis (Force Palm), Celebii is the only pokemon who can do that. Counters are pokemon that could defeated Breloom if the pokemon and Breloom are on a 1vs1, Like I said not many chesnaughts carry Poison jab, and if it doesn't Hammer Arm has a 6.25% chance to OHKO, but if breloom survives, it can kill it.
SO chesnaught is not a Check for sure, it could be a counter but that's really counting on that 6.25% chance (Or if you happen to have Poison Jab), if not, Breloom can 2HKO with PuP OR Force Palm.
P.S: This was mentioned: I don't know if breloom learns Play Rough or not, but it's completely useless on him.
1- All Chesnaught's I've been seeing have this move pool:
Seed Bomb / Wood Hammer
Hammer Arm / PuP
Spiky Shield / Leech Seed / Pain Split
Substitute / PuP / Bulk Up
I've never seen a Poison Jab on a Chesnaught.
2- You are only counting the regular Life Orb Technician Breloom (Which is out of date IMO) I'd recommend Sub with Technician or Scarf, Sub + Poison Heal is good too
252 Atk Life Orb Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chesnaught: 269-317 (70.78 - 83.42%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Spikes, In My Opinion, in this gen you are seeing Spikes more than Stealth Rock (On Showdown too) because of the following reasons: Klefki and Greninja, which are clearly everywhere.
252 Atk Life Orb Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chesnuaght: 269-317 (70.78 - 83.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, in this case or if you had no hazards at all: Chesnaught breaks sub and next turn is yours to kill him.
3- In some of you calcs, you had been counting Breloom using Mach Punch, now why would breloom use Mach Punch? Being faster than Chesnaught he has: Focus Punch if he had Sub, Power Up Punch twice (if he had sub), Force Palm (not to mention 2 of it if he had sub).
4- A Check is a pokemon that can switch in to Breloom, take entry hazrd damage, take hit, take a hit next turn, and OHKO Breloom with enough health that he can survive any recoil (If any) in ALL of Breloom's sets + Counting the chance of say, not moving due to paralysis (Force Palm), Celebii is the only pokemon who can do that. Counters are pokemon that could defeated Breloom if the pokemon and Breloom are on a 1vs1, Like I said not many chesnaughts carry Poison jab, and if it doesn't Hammer Arm has a 6.25% chance to OHKO, but if breloom survives, it can kill it.
SO chesnaught is not a Check for sure, it could be a counter but that's really counting on that 6.25% chance (Or if you happen to have Poison Jab), if not, Breloom can 2HKO with PuP OR Force Palm.
P.S: This was mentioned: I don't know if breloom learns Play Rough or not, but it's completely useless on him.
looking at breloom's speed I don't see him outspeeding much especially his main counters ie flying types especially talonflame. so is adamant nature just as viable? I raised one myself since its my fav pokemon I breed it and ev trained it for atk and speed though its adamant. should I scrap it or is it viable to not run jolly?
Every Breloom should get Jolly. But that's just hypothetically speaking, in-game it's really hard to find one with the right IVs, Jolly is awesome, Adamant is good too, but if you run Adamant, I advise running the sub set or the scarf set.
252 Atk Life Orb Breloom Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gourgiest: 120-142 (32.08 - 37.96%) -- 50.78% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
252+ Atk Gourgiest Phantom Force vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 162-192 (61.83 - 73.28%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
252+ Atk Gourgiest Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 73-87 (27.86 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
There you have it Breloom barely 2HKO-es Gougriest and only 3HKO-es it if there was no entry hazard, However, Gourgiest 3HKO-es at best with entry hazards if it has Shadow Sneak, if it using Phantom Force, then Breloom can set up Swords Dance or Substitute, Gourgiest is definitely not a Check or a counter for Breloom because it lacks healing moves, however, with Will-o-Wisp, Gougiest can be a Counter for Scarf Breloom.
I fail to see why Power-up Punch is better than Swords Dance. It only raises your attack by 1 stage, while Swords Dance adds +2. Also, Power-up Punch isn't that strong. Can someone please explain this to me?
Power-Up Punch does damage, With STAB and Technician it goes to 90 BP (More powerful than Brick Break AND gives you a +1 attack), with 252 Atk Evs and 130 Base Attack it can do a lot, especially if Super Effective, so it's basically hitting + Setting up.
Actually it's weaker than Brick Break; it gets STAB too, so it would be ~112. And I could've sworn its power was only 30, which was the main reason I asked.
Whilst it is somewhat specialised, and useful mainly for the surprise factor, Fury Cutter on Breloom means Celebi can't hard wall it any more.
IMO, scarfed Breloom is its best set in the developing metagame, but I would consider banded Breloom as well. The difference in speed is somewhat mitigated by Breloom's ability to KO common switch in, and with the ability to run Sticky Web, to me, these KOs have been worth more. For example, Aegislash is 3HKOed by Bullet Seed with a CB. Trevenant is 2HKOed with CB. Togekiss is 2HKOed even if there are no rocks up. Crobat is OHKOed. Gliscor is 2HKOed.
I would not personally run sub on Breloom. It really needs the coverage provided by Rock Tomb with Talonflame everywhere as well as Togekiss, infiltrator Crobat and Gengar, and cannot really afford to give up its other moves either. I've actually been finding that I rely on Spore less and less, and have also been experimenting with LO SD + 3 attacks. The fact that Breloom typically carries Spore is a nice fake out, and usually means you can dispense with at least 1 Pokemon before your opponent figures it out.
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I agree that Chesnaught is definitely a counter but not a check. However the more wildely used movepool for chesnaught is the following:
Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Grass/Fighting
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Synthesis/Leech Seed
- Hammer Arm/Roar
- Seed Bomb
Take look at Breloom's Mach Punch calculations:
Life Orb Variants:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 175-208 (46.05 - 54.73%) -- 8.98% chance to 2HKO
Non Life Orb Variants:
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 67-81 (17.63 - 21.31%) -- possible 7HKO
Focus Punch Calculations:
Sub Punch:
252+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 169-199 (44.47 - 52.36%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Chesnaught's Hammer Arm:
0 Atk Chesnaught Hammer Arm vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 138-163 (52.67 - 62.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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Stone edge on Breloom is very uncommon, and I was referring to Scarf and Spore + Mach Punch Breloom. So I guess nether us is entirely wrong, but I did word my sentence poorly.
llolololool didn't take that into account, still it's nice.
That's exactly the point of scarf and the sub set: bluffing a spore set. Spore is still nice but you need the coverage more and Breloom can definitely manage, yes a sub set would kinda make you lack some coverage but it's worth it, but as you can see Scarf and PuP set are more important
We (Or at least I) wasn't taking Bulletproof into account, I'll put Chesnaught as a Counter, but only if it has Bulletproof really.
Stone Edge is only 10 extra damage than technician Rock Tomb, and those two moves are really common this gen, so my point stands, however yes Gourgiest is a counter for the Spore and Scarf Set (Only if it carries Will-o-Wisp)
How exactly is Scarf Breloom a "counter" to Talonflame when the latter has PRIORITY Flying STAB? Acrobatics/Brave Bird are a OHKO. It's not even a check for that matter.
Could you please quote whoever said that? I don't recall anyone saying that. I do recall someone calling talonflame a counter to breloom though.
Been playing with a Growth Breloom on my team with a Char-Y bringing the sun. After reading this thread I'm going to tweek my movepool a bit, but, thoughts on this?
Breloom @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Growth
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Tomb
- Mach Punch
Breloom @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Growth
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Tomb
- Mach Punch
What's the point in using Growth when all you have are physical attacks anyway? SD does the same thing but doesn't rely on Sun.
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