Bronzong (Heatproof)

[B-Lulz]

Topic Title: Bronzong (Heatproof)

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/bronzong

[SET]
name: Heatproof Special Wall (Baitzong?)
move 1: Payback
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Explosion
move 4: Stealth Rock/Hypnosis/Reflect
item: Leftovers
nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP/48 Atk/208 Sp.Def

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
-Beats a lot of common special attackers roaming around OU currently (namely Starmie and Gengar, with this EV spread LO Starmie Hydro Pump 3HKO's with this spread after SR and Gengar LO Shadow Ball usually 4HKO's) Payback KO's Starmie and Gengar generally after SR and 2 and 1 LO recoils respectively.
-Heatproof works as a bluff, since the opponent will not know which ability is being used upon first switch in. Generally they will assume Levitate and switch in a Fire pokemon or a pokemon with a Fire move such as Infernape and Heatran, both of which are dealt with by Earthquake.
-Explosion can help open up a sweep for something, and is especially useful when stuck against a bulky water such as Suicune. Hypnosis can help against switchins, Reflect and Light Screen allow Bronzong to wall things easier (for example Physical Infernape).
-Unpredictability can open holes in opponents team for you to sweep late game. Won't lose unpredictability because Levitate is a perfectly viable ability, but arguably in a metagame where Infernape and Heatran are running rampant, Heatproof is the better ability with not so many Earthquakes running around.
-No Heatproof set on site, while Levitate is the better ability I believe Heatproof has great utility on Bronzong.

Additional Comments:
-It must be emphasized that it should NOT be switched in on a Fire type, this should initially be used to counter things such as Starmie and Gengar, then beat the common switchins.
-Shed Shell can work if you are especially scared of Magnezone but unless you want to risk a 2HKO by Starmie or miss the KO on Starmie with Payback, Leftovers is suggested.
-From what I have found works best on Offensive teams, haven't tried in on Balance or Stall however. I imagine it could work on balance so I will test that if required but I really dont think a test on a stall team is necessary (lol).


Teammates and Counters:
-Works well with Starmie since, with Heatproof it is hit by Spikes, not only causing it damage but giving away its ability, and therefore its unpredictability.
-CM Jirachi is a great partner for this since once Heatran and Infernape are gone it doesn't have to worry about STAB Fire attacks any more.
-Countered by bulky waters, especially Suicune and Vaporeon, although Explosion definately hurts. Machamp likes switching in on anything except Explosion.


Ok this was my first QC post, so be nice! I honestly believe this set deserves a spot on the analysis and i'm quite shocked not to see a set like this on the analysis. Its probably not the best write up but hopefully you can look past that! Thanks for reading everyone.

 

[Fatecrashers]

Once this Bronzong has removed the common Fire-type switch-ins it will have given away the fact that it does not have Levitate. Seeing as your opponent will figure out that this Bronzong is weak to Earthquake, I'm not sure that CMrachi will be that great of a partner for it due to the shared Earthquake weakness.

EDIT: Also, your Bronzong analysis link links to the Heatran analysis.

 

[B-Lulz]

Hmm yeah I guess, i'll edit the partners in a second and add to it too once I do some further testing.

 

[Curtains]

I think gyroball should be at least slashed in with the 4th move since it handles stuff like shaymin well and T-tar.

 

[Dan Dan]

The problem I have with using Heatproof on Bronzong is that it only works once, then you are open to taking super effective damage from the most used move in the game.

I'd much prefer to use this with Trick in the 4th slot and Iron Ball, since you lure Skarmory to setup on you anyway, then you can at least it it with Earthquake. And then it just turns this into the Trick Zong onsite...

 

[KidX]

I have used a heatproof bronzong before, but I used a shucca berry with it and I had a wish passer so it was all good.

 

[Lucien Lachance]

You people are forgetting something, Salamences job was, before DD, was to KO 1 pokemon, any more was amazing. So Bronzong killing 1 pokemon is great. So bronzong effectively removing 1 pokemon and either KOing another pokemon with Explosion or severly weakening it is amazing for it.

Dan, I don't really like specifing 1 pokemon for a pokemon that I don't see to often. So I don't think Trick and iron ball should be an option. If Skarm is consistently being send out at Bronzong, then switch to like a Heatran.

 

[Lucario_Guy]

I suggest that Gyarados be listed as a good team mate. This Bronzong removes two of Gyarados's most common checks, Starmie and Gengar, and has great type synergy with Gyarados as well.

 

[B-Lulz]

The problem I have with using Heatproof on Bronzong is that it only works once, then you are open to taking super effective damage from the most used move in the game.

I'd much prefer to use this with Trick in the 4th slot and Iron Ball, since you lure Skarmory to setup on you anyway, then you can at least it it with Earthquake. And then it just turns this into the Trick Zong onsite...

This set isn't meant to last long enough for this to be taken advantage of. Once its taken out either, or both, of the two things I mentioned in the skeleton (fast special attackers and Heatran/Infernape) then it has more than done its job. It only needs to work once to be of use.

I suggest that Gyarados be listed as a good team mate. This Bronzong removes two of Gyarados's most common checks, Starmie and Gengar, and has great type synergy with Gyarados as well.

Yeah Gyarados would be a very good partner defensively and offensively, will add that in for sure.

On another note before people start chastising the set I would like some feedback from personal experience if at all possible. The EV spread I used might need a little tweaking but it has worked for me up to this point.

 

[firecape]

Its a whole set for an ability change, maybe it deserves other options (which it has) but I don't think it deserves a whole new set. On the other hand, why would I use this over other special walls, it has no recovery which is a big turn off. Also, without Levitate, you can't switch into Earthquakes which is a big plus for regular Bronzong, and its not like you are resistant to Fire-type attacks, I'm pretty sure Heatproof just cancels out the weakness. Also, if the enemy has Spikes up you have no element of suprise at all.

Ctrl F Heatproof, you will easily find the paragraph for it and I think its fine.

 

[B-Lulz]

Its a whole set for an ability change, maybe it deserves other options (which it has) but I don't think it deserves a whole new set. On the other hand, why would I use this over other special walls, it has no recovery which is a big turn off. Also, without Levitate, you can't switch into Earthquakes which is a big plus for regular Bronzong, and its not like you are resistant to Fire-type attacks, I'm pretty sure Heatproof just cancels out the weakness. Also, if the enemy has Spikes up you have no element of suprise at all.

Ctrl F Heatproof, you will easily find the paragraph for it and I think its fine.

I'll completely disregard the fact that it seems you didn't actually read the analysis (or maybe I didn't get my point across well enough, thats debatable I guess), so i'll outline what this set is aiming to do again.

This set is meant to be able to clear the way for something else to sweep once Pokemon such as Gngar, Starmie, Heatran and Infernape are gone. It is NOT a special wall set, it is more than anything else meant to take out its usual switchins, be it Earthquake for the aforementioned Fire types, or Explosion for things like offensive Suicune, Zapdos and Gyarados.

As of the Spikes thing, I agree it needs Rapid Spin support since Spikes are common enough to stop this from working every now and again. Then again, I don't think this should be a reason for this to be just discarded. Its not as if Bronzong becomes deadweight if they know your ability because you can still explode on the Flygon that is going to EQ you (albeit taking a chunk of your health in the process, i'm not entirely sure if it survives though I think it can.)

 

[firecape]

I'll completely disregard the fact that it seems you didn't actually read the analysis (or maybe I didn't get my point across well enough, thats debatable I guess), so i'll outline what this set is aiming to do again.

This set is meant to be able to clear the way for something else to sweep once Pokemon such as Gngar, Starmie, Heatran and Infernape are gone. It is NOT a special wall set, it is more than anything else meant to take out its usual switchins, be it Earthquake for the aforementioned Fire types, or Explosion for things like offensive Suicune, Zapdos and Gyarados.

As of the Spikes thing, I agree it needs Rapid Spin support since Spikes are common enough to stop this from working every now and again. Then again, I don't think this should be a reason for this to be just discarded. Its not as if Bronzong becomes deadweight if they know your ability because you can still explode on the Flygon that is going to EQ you (albeit taking a chunk of your health in the process, i'm not entirely sure if it survives though I think it can.)

Ok I'm not an idiot. The original title had special wall in it, just because you edit it does not mean I didn't read it.

Additional Comments:
-It must be emphasized that it should NOT be switched in on a Fire type, this should initially be used to counter things such as Starmie and Gengar, then beat the common switchins.

If you don't aim to switch into Fire-types, what is the point of Heatproof? I would never leave Starmie or Gengar in against Bronzong because they can't OHKO the main set either, and Bronzong kills them.

You seem to be confusing two sets, how does Heatproof help you much against Gengar and Starmie anyways? You have a special spread for those...its not Heatproof. Honestly HP fire is weak, it has 140 BP (when super effective) vs the 120 of Shadow Ball, so thats not much different, so even if I did leave Gengar in, its not like I'm doing less because of Heatproof (although if I did use HP Fire I would notice you had Heatproof and switch to a Pokemon that knows one of the most commonly used moves in the game- Earthquake). Sure a Heatran may switch in and you kill it with EQ, but what else does this set do?(Maybe Infernape too) But you still take around 50% from those two...your not exactly beating them unharmed.

edit: I would also like to restate that there already is mention of Heatproof for Bronzong, maybe that should be expanded on, but I don't think it needs its own set.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

This is a gimmick that trades reliability for lures on specific Pokemon... and that's not something that I think warrants a set. A mention in AC or OC, yes, but an entire set? Not feelin' it.

 

[cim]

-Beats a lot of common special attackers roaming around OU currently (namely Starmie and Gengar, with this EV spread LO Starmie Hydro Pump 3HKO's with this spread after SR and Gengar LO Shadow Ball usually 4HKO's) Payback KO's Starmie and Gengar generally after SR and 2 and 1 LO recoils respectively.

Anyone who switches Gengar into Bronzong is a poor player. Gyro Ball does loads of damage and Bronzong's HP isn't high enough to effectively Pain Split. I wouldn't call this Gengar bait at all. It does get Starmie, but when Starmie can switch out, you'll wish you had used better bait, such as Metagross with Pursuit.

Heatproof works as a bluff, since the opponent will not know which ability is being used upon first switch in. Generally they will assume Levitate and switch in a Fire pokemon or a pokemon with a Fire move such as Infernape and Heatran, both of which are dealt with by Earthquake.

Heatran still does major damage with Overheat. It's no KO, but it's not an immunity either. I guess it's a bait for Heatran though, but then you can't switch it in on the much more common EQ.

Unpredictability can open holes in opponents team for you to sweep late game. Won't lose unpredictability because Levitate is a perfectly viable ability, but arguably in a metagame where Infernape and Heatran are running rampant, Heatproof is the better ability with not so many Earthquakes running around.

Sets relying on people not knowing Bronzong very well and taking foolish risks like bringing Heatran in on a full health Zong don't make good bait.

-Shed Shell can work if you are especially scared of Magnezone but unless you want to risk a 2HKO by Starmie or miss the KO on Starmie with Payback, Leftovers is suggested.

Earthquake?

Overall I think this set is pretty gimmicky compared to normal Bronzong.

 

[B-Lulz]

The set is to bait Heatran and Infernape, not Gengar. lol the idea is you come in on gengar or Starmie and if they switch to Heatran or Infernape they die. This set takes about 70% from Specs FB iirc but i haven't calc'd it.

I can see where you got that from though, I suck at writing.

 

[LoveDensity]

The set is to bait Heatran and Infernape, not Gengar. lol the idea is you come in on gengar or Starmie and if they switch to Heatran or Infernape they die. This set takes about 70% from Specs FB iirc but i haven't calc'd it.

Or, you can just come in on gengar or starmie and predict they will switch in Heatran, so you Earthquake for OHKO instead of taking a chunk from regular Fire Blasts at 37-43%. I would not risk Bronzong taking extra hits just to beat Fire Pokemon and hinder its ability to wall Starmie/Gengar. Bronzong should be a primary switch to Gengar anyways, so you add its LO Shadow Ball damage on top of the Fire Blast damage meaning Bronzong would take around 74% thus rendering its ability to switch into Gengar or act as an utility check vs Starmie. And you certainly do not want Gengar/Starmie to come in more than once, let alone twice or three times. They will just blow holes into your team late-game even if you have suicune, shaymin, jirachi, etc. as extra checks to them.

Just use a bulky water or smart switching to beat Heatran/Infernape... I wouldn't trade its reliability of switching into EQ and to check other special threats anyday. You can't lose to other Pokemon too like Flygon, Metagross, etc. late game.

 

[Forte.EXE]

...I don't understand why you wouldn't run Occa Berry and Levitate. That way, you actually have an immunity to a common used type, defense against another type, and you're not screwed over by Spikes.

 

[panamaxis]

If you could tell me us why this deserves a seperate set instead of a mention of how it can lure heatran and infernape by running heatproof in the levitate set that would be pretty cool.

 

[remlabmez]

This is a gimmick that trades reliability for lures on specific Pokemon... and that's not something that I think warrants a set. A mention in AC or OC, yes, but an entire set? Not feelin' it.

This, I would approve a mention in AC or OC as well but not an entire set.

 

[Setsuna]

I'm all for allowing a mention in AC of Heatproof and the way Bronzong can lure Heatran and Infernape by using said nature. However, a set for just this isn't possible.

I'm going to give some time (couple of days) to the poster to respond to what some of the QCers have asked, and then take care of the rest.

 

[Setsuna]

Locked. I will take care of mentioning in the on-site set what has been concluded here.