It was before the submission part opened and it wasn't mentioned again. I did debate putting it in as it's a great shout.
I'll edit it in as a one off.
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I'll edit it in as a one off.
Voting for cant say's Support Swampert & Raikou
would love to actually see this thing in action.
would love to actually see this thing in action.
Ethan has been solid with his nomination(s) and this week was no exception.
When Mega Salamence hits the skies, you would need a truck or something to cover the ground, and Azumarill is the perfect mon for the job.
Since I'm a fan of SFD cores, I must say both Aegislash and Ferrothorn were very appealing options.
However, Flash Cannon over Shadow Ball and no Grass-type STAB on Ferro gives me the unfamiliar territory feel.
With that said, going to vote for ethan06's Choice Band Azumarill.
As for the check to Thundurus and Mega Manectric, we can throw in a pink blob next week like Chansey and call it a day.
Coincidently both mons in the core take Fighting-types with ease.
When Mega Salamence hits the skies, you would need a truck or something to cover the ground, and Azumarill is the perfect mon for the job.
Since I'm a fan of SFD cores, I must say both Aegislash and Ferrothorn were very appealing options.
However, Flash Cannon over Shadow Ball and no Grass-type STAB on Ferro gives me the unfamiliar territory feel.
With that said, going to vote for ethan06's Choice Band Azumarill.
As for the check to Thundurus and Mega Manectric, we can throw in a pink blob next week like Chansey and call it a day.
Coincidently both mons in the core take Fighting-types with ease.
Voting for NOVED's Mamo.
Lots of other nominations would be good too, but we just have to get the early stuff down, cuz there's too much to pick from with just one mon decided on. Mamo synergize nice with Mence, and is a generally good mon. Stealth Rocks seem important to make up for this Mence's somewhat lower damage, and it can mess with some of this pairs' common problems like Suicune and Cress better.
Lots of other nominations would be good too, but we just have to get the early stuff down, cuz there's too much to pick from with just one mon decided on. Mamo synergize nice with Mence, and is a generally good mon. Stealth Rocks seem important to make up for this Mence's somewhat lower damage, and it can mess with some of this pairs' common problems like Suicune and Cress better.
Summary:
Sub Toxic Aegislash = 1
Support Swampert & Raikou = 1
Rotom Heat = 1
Mamoswine = 4
Azumarill = 5
OK another close vote and an interesting, logical winner. This is the winning set from Ethan:
Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 228 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Def / 12 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall
- Play Rough
- Knock Off
So the next step is to figure out how we support these two powerful 'mons. I'm going to post the comments that Ethan put in his posts
ok so the main issues I see with this Salamence set is that it is undersped and KOed by Garchomp, as well as being really weak to Weavile and Mamoswine. These are probably things that could be improved on a little later down the track but I think CB Azumarill would be a cool option to consider, as it beats all three (except maybe Sash Chomp). It can also run Knock Off to chunk Cress and P2 and can be EVd to take Greninja's Gunk Shot (also revenges with Aqua Jet if Gren hasn't just used Scald or Grass Knot). The resistance to Ice and immunity to Fairy are handy too. It does still lose to Thundurus and Gengar so we'd have to take steps towards beating those (a Mamo or Weavile of our own? Some other Ground-type? Aegislash?).
Imma stick with this. Azumarill beats Weavile, Mamo and Garchomp for Salamence while also providing Knock Off support and smacking things like Hippo and Tyranitar and Shuca/Balloon Heatran really hard. Hard counters Charizard X (Mence deals with Y) and soft checks Mega Altaria. Mence covers Rotom, Serp, Venusaur and some varieties of Gengar. If this is chosen we'd need to look into a solid check for Thundurus and Mega Manectric.
Imma stick with this. Azumarill beats Weavile, Mamo and Garchomp for Salamence while also providing Knock Off support and smacking things like Hippo and Tyranitar and Shuca/Balloon Heatran really hard. Hard counters Charizard X (Mence deals with Y) and soft checks Mega Altaria. Mence covers Rotom, Serp, Venusaur and some varieties of Gengar. If this is chosen we'd need to look into a solid check for Thundurus and Mega Manectric.
We also have the analysis set to refer to.
Both Aegi and Mamo are good teammates for Mence and Azu.
Aegi takes care of Gengar, which is tough in general and especially for Azu. Sacred Sword is also extra nice for fighting coverage-the agreed upon Azu doesn't have Superpower. Aegi also has three of its weaknesses covered, and since this team so far isn't that weak to Gengar or enemy Aegi, you could pretty much say ghost is covered too since those are the main users of ghost type moves.
Mamo is another mon that's just good in general, and the top teammate for Mence. It covers enemy Mence, which can be quite a bit of trouble for this team. Especially if they have a Dragon STAB to deal with this team's Mence better, tho even without that they have an edge in damage if they're DE. Mamo ruins those, and also the rare Gliscor which is annoying. Garchomp and Landog are pretty manageable, but you can never go wrong with ice type coverage.
Assuming both of theses are used...I think this team has problems with Suicune, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Scizor(maybe just a little,) Lati twins(again mild, but they can revenge Mence with powerful DMs, have potential t-bolts to pick apart Azu, can sometimes Trick Aegi a yucky choice item, and do good against non AV Mamo if they ain't in Ice Shard range,) Rotom-H, and a few others I'm sure but I think these are the main ones. I also think Serperior can be quite difficult. It can outspeed Mence, Reflect, and then Glare. Azu dies pretty fast to Leaf Storm, and is set up fodder for Reflect as well. Mamo can't do enough without crits considering Reflect, and Aegi probably won't do enough and can raise Serp's SpD with either of its main STABs. It's also quite susceptible to Taunt and the rare Leech Seed and Swagger.
Mamo is a really nice mon, but it also contributes to all of those weaknesses, so it may actually not be a very good fit. Unless most of those threats could be addressed in the last two slots without making the team much worse vs some other stuff, I think Mamo shouldn't be used here. Aegi I'm definitely in support of tho, it's been nommed each round too, so I figure it's just a matter of time anyways.
Aegi takes care of Gengar, which is tough in general and especially for Azu. Sacred Sword is also extra nice for fighting coverage-the agreed upon Azu doesn't have Superpower. Aegi also has three of its weaknesses covered, and since this team so far isn't that weak to Gengar or enemy Aegi, you could pretty much say ghost is covered too since those are the main users of ghost type moves.
Mamo is another mon that's just good in general, and the top teammate for Mence. It covers enemy Mence, which can be quite a bit of trouble for this team. Especially if they have a Dragon STAB to deal with this team's Mence better, tho even without that they have an edge in damage if they're DE. Mamo ruins those, and also the rare Gliscor which is annoying. Garchomp and Landog are pretty manageable, but you can never go wrong with ice type coverage.
Assuming both of theses are used...I think this team has problems with Suicune, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Scizor(maybe just a little,) Lati twins(again mild, but they can revenge Mence with powerful DMs, have potential t-bolts to pick apart Azu, can sometimes Trick Aegi a yucky choice item, and do good against non AV Mamo if they ain't in Ice Shard range,) Rotom-H, and a few others I'm sure but I think these are the main ones. I also think Serperior can be quite difficult. It can outspeed Mence, Reflect, and then Glare. Azu dies pretty fast to Leaf Storm, and is set up fodder for Reflect as well. Mamo can't do enough without crits considering Reflect, and Aegi probably won't do enough and can raise Serp's SpD with either of its main STABs. It's also quite susceptible to Taunt and the rare Leech Seed and Swagger.
Mamo is a really nice mon, but it also contributes to all of those weaknesses, so it may actually not be a very good fit. Unless most of those threats could be addressed in the last two slots without making the team much worse vs some other stuff, I think Mamo shouldn't be used here. Aegi I'm definitely in support of tho, it's been nommed each round too, so I figure it's just a matter of time anyways.
I'm honestly surprised Azumarill received so many votes, I never thought of them as a duo that work together. These two auto-lose to Thundurus, and (Specs) Rotom-W / (Calm Mind) Suicune give big trouble too. I still think Raikou would fit in nicely here as it addresses those things the best imo, but the SubCM set I posted earlier wouldn't be the best anymore (although it could still work), I think Specs or Assault Vest would work better specifically for coming in on Rotom-W (just hope they don't predict and go for Hydro Pump, but if they do the they're locked in and Mence can come in and start setting up). So when nominating rolls around again you can guess what I'll be suggesting...
I don't think specially defensive mega-mence autoloses to thundurus. It doesn't care about thunder wave because it has facade. Although hp ice is a 2hko, mence can just dragon dance on the first turn and roost up the next turn so it loses its flying type and hp ice does much less damage. Specs max special attack rotom-wash's hp ice does about 78 - 91 percent to this mence so mence can safely get off a dd and then keep roosting just like with thundurus. Yes cune can be a problem but every core has some weakness. The main reason to use azu with this mence is because it can handle premier physical threats such as garchomp, any mamoswine, mega zard x, hippo, hydreigon, dragonite etc etc. Raikou pretty much autoloses to all the aforementioned threats.
The Salamence vs Thundurus matchup is so sketchy, with the advantage definitely skewed in the Thundurus player's favour. Offensive Thund wins if it first uses HP Ice, then uses Thunder Wave while you Roost, then follows up with a KO with HP Ice the next turn. Sure, you can go for Facade turn two predicting the Thunder Wave and go for the KO, but maybe they aren't actually a smart Thundurus player and they used HP Ice that turn, so they tank the 70BP Facade and KO with HP Ice that turn. It's basically a mind game in the favour of the Thund player. Wouldn't we rather have something that can just switch in on it and win..?
Bulky Nasty Plot Thund is an auto-lose though. They just T-wave from the start and then Nasty Plot in your face before KOing with HP Ice...
Don't forget that full paras are also a thing which is an auto-lose is they proc...
Specs Rotom-W is even worse for Mence, there's literally no way I can see us winning with Mence. Roosting does nothing when they just keep clicking HP Ice, we're never gonna be in a situation where we don't have to Roost and can actually attack, not to mention we need to be at +2 and statused to 2HKO it.... So we end up running out of Roost PP and losing...
Basically, we can only DD infront of physdef Rotom-W who try and Will-O-Wisp us. Admittedly that's an easy set up for Mence, but since it's hard to tell physdef apart from Specs at team preview, i don't think it's really safe and think we'd benefit from having something that can just beat it.
I was never arguing that we use Raikou over Azumarill, lol. I was merely stating what our current duo lose to and what I think we should use with it.....
Just to clarify cause im not sure this is known, just cause para boosts facade doesnt mean you want to be para'd ever. Para still slows you down and really sucks so you pretty much never want to stay in on thund, a thund counter is necessary. Also the Rotom-W matchup really isnt that bad cause HP ice is really rare, even specs doesnt usually run it and i dont think non specs hp ice is enough to beat spdef mence. That said it is probably good to have a nice check for it anyway because having one will overlap with checking other bulky waters like slowbro who also look pretty annoying for mence and azu
Going for a slightly different Mamoswine set to deal with the problem Electric types:
Submission #1:
Mamoswine @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 44 HP / 156 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD / 52 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Tomb/Fissure
And a solution to the Water type debate:
Submission # 2
Serperior @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 116 HP / 220 Def / 172 Spe
Timid Nature
- Reflect
- Synthesis
- Leaf Storm
- Glare/Taunt
Submission #1:
Mamoswine @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 44 HP / 156 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD / 52 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Tomb/Fissure
And a solution to the Water type debate:
Submission # 2
Serperior @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 116 HP / 220 Def / 172 Spe
Timid Nature
- Reflect
- Synthesis
- Leaf Storm
- Glare/Taunt
Okay, this suggestion is a bit of an oddity, not something you will typically see much in the world of Battle Spot Singles. I was honestly gonna nominate Raikou since it pairs extremely well with Salamence/Azumarill, but cant say said he'd take it, and while there's absolutely nothing stopping me from doing so, I'm still a bro. So I was tinkering around with some calcs and came up with this:
Tangrowth @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 50
EVs: 180 HP / 172 SpA / 156 SpD
Modest / Quiet Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Focus Blast / Earthquake
- Ancient Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
It's not the best thing ever, but it's capable of handling Thundurus 1v1 while still manhandling bulky Water-types of all stripes. The EVs are optimized to be able to 2HKO offensive Thundurus, with the remaining EVs optimized to only be 3HKOed by LO Thundurus HP Ice. Also bulky enough to survive one Ice Beam at full HP from LO Greninja, thus allowing Tangrowth to serve as an emergency check to it. Tangrowth also disposes of Breloom for Azumarill, as well as Ferrothorn if you opt to run Focus Blast, which is the superior option in my opinion. Earthquake is listed if Raikou ends up being a troublesome mon for the team, in which case you should opt for a Quiet nature instead. Also helps with Heatran switching in I guess, just don't try to 1v1 it.
Salamence and Azumarill are capable of handling the fire-types that threaten Tangrowth, while Tangrowth does a decent job of checking the Electric-types and bulky Waters that plague the two. Tangrowth is also another backup check to stuff like Azumarill, Tyranitar, and Garchomp, which is always welcome to have. Zapdos will generally still be a problem for Tangrowth, though if it lacks HP Ice Salamence walks all over it.
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 180 HP / 156 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 78-94 (39.3 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 180 HP / 156 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 156-185 (78.7 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
172+ SpA Tangrowth Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 78-92 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
172+ SpA Tangrowth Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 78-92 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Tangrowth @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 50
EVs: 180 HP / 172 SpA / 156 SpD
Modest / Quiet Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Focus Blast / Earthquake
- Ancient Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
It's not the best thing ever, but it's capable of handling Thundurus 1v1 while still manhandling bulky Water-types of all stripes. The EVs are optimized to be able to 2HKO offensive Thundurus, with the remaining EVs optimized to only be 3HKOed by LO Thundurus HP Ice. Also bulky enough to survive one Ice Beam at full HP from LO Greninja, thus allowing Tangrowth to serve as an emergency check to it. Tangrowth also disposes of Breloom for Azumarill, as well as Ferrothorn if you opt to run Focus Blast, which is the superior option in my opinion. Earthquake is listed if Raikou ends up being a troublesome mon for the team, in which case you should opt for a Quiet nature instead. Also helps with Heatran switching in I guess, just don't try to 1v1 it.
Salamence and Azumarill are capable of handling the fire-types that threaten Tangrowth, while Tangrowth does a decent job of checking the Electric-types and bulky Waters that plague the two. Tangrowth is also another backup check to stuff like Azumarill, Tyranitar, and Garchomp, which is always welcome to have. Zapdos will generally still be a problem for Tangrowth, though if it lacks HP Ice Salamence walks all over it.
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 180 HP / 156 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 78-94 (39.3 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 180 HP / 156 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 156-185 (78.7 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
172+ SpA Tangrowth Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 78-92 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
172+ SpA Tangrowth Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 78-92 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
As I was waiting for CoolStoryBrobat to nominate Aegislash again, you could say the same about that
But yeah Ninja is a problem.
But yeah Ninja is a problem.
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Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Ice Shard
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
Pretty simple nom. Salamence is still outsped by non-Scarf Garchomp and Azumarill takes a hefty chunk from Earthquake so Weavile patches this. Also bops Gengar, outpaces Greninja and deals with Thundurus thanks to Fake Out + Ice Shard. Makes the Azu problem worse so something like Helmet Serp would do well next round to stop both Azu and Khan in one sitting. (Khan is still a problem although Low Kick does like 85% - Fake Out into Low Kick is a roll rip)
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