Resource BSS Viability Rankings

cant say

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why does Reun just get blown back by Tyranitar in this game...?

hate to say it, but all of those replays were pretty awful. especially the last one where it was just a 145 turn switch-fest and Reun again had no actual impact. If these are the best replays you could cherry-pick then Reun is nowhere near viable imo

You're also basing your nomination on a set (double-boosting Iron Defense / Acid Armour) which is nowhere near its best / most common set...

#17Acid Armor0.9496284062758051%
#19Iron Defense0.7844756399669695%

combined 50% berry usage is 13% which makes it 4th most common item behind Psychium Z, Kee Berry and Life Orb.

This nomination is clearly based on a small sample size from PS mid-ladder. Since it has nothing to do with tournaments, PS high ladder or cart ladder at all I'm inclined to shelve it.
 
why does Reun just get blown back by Tyranitar in this game...?

hate to say it, but all of those replays were pretty awful. especially the last one where it was just a 145 turn switch-fest and Reun again had no actual impact. If these are the best replays you could cherry-pick then Reun is nowhere near viable imo

You're also basing your nomination on a set (double-boosting Iron Defense / Acid Armour) which is nowhere near its best / most common set...

#17Acid Armor0.9496284062758051%

#19Iron Defense0.7844756399669695%

combined 50% berry usage is 13% which makes it 4th most common item behind Psychium Z, Kee Berry and Life Orb.

This nomination is clearly based on a small sample size from PS mid-ladder. Since it has nothing to do with tournaments, PS high ladder or cart ladder at all I'm inclined to shelve it.
I am not sure about the replays as the one you quoted was certainly not a good example (though matchup wise in general reuniculus did well if you got rid of the ttar), but I could see reuniculus being warranted a C ranking considering the amount of stuff that is in there. I've used it once or twice and it's performed alright on some rachet balance team that I did end up using in a tour game. Do I think it is particularly good? Well it's alright and can work. Do I think it is better than Buzzwole or Rhyperior? Yes.

On another note, Mega Steelix is fantastic and should at least be C rank.
 
May I suggest another rise for Empoleon?

Something I have been having a lot of fun lately is Yawn+Whirlpool. This is something that can break bulky teams with extreme ease, and can open up great opportunities for more traditional trappers to come in for free on their intended targets. Even the humble Dugtrio can become a monster with this support. The best part is that Whirlpool's damage and trapping effect will still work during Misty Terrain, so you can catch the Tapu, wait for the terrain to run out and put it to sleep.

As for uniqueness, among other pokemon on the viability list, the only one that could potentially replicate this combo is Hippowdon. And while he has Earthquake to deal with Aegislash more reliably, he is more cramped with move slots, has extremely low special defense and often lacks enough power to get anything done on his own (not to mention Sand Tomb is ten times worse than Whirlpool, missing out key targets like Celesteela and Salamence).

Whirlpool is long from a one-trick-pony however. It can also have other situational uses like breaking Mymikiu's Disguise and Focus Sash in one go, get Hippowdon in range of a Scald KO without triggering his berry, or stacking damage with Toxic or Scald's burn against bulkier targets.
 
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I realize how newbie I was making suggestions! I got to 1650 once!.....I fought an Emp with a yawn whirlpool set....I have nothing for Emp...
 

chemcoop

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May I suggest another rise for Empoleon?

Something I have been having a lot of fun lately is Yawn+Whirlpool. This is something that can break bulky teams with extreme ease, and can open up great opportunities for more traditional trappers to come in for free on their intended targets. Even the humble Dugtrio can become a monster with this support. The best part is that Whirlpool's damage and trapping effect will still work during Misty Terrain, so you can catch the Tapu, wait for the terrain to run out and put it to sleep.

As for uniqueness, among other pokemon on the viability list, the only one that could potentially replicate this combo is Hippowdon. And while he has Earthquake to deal with Aegislash more reliably, he is more cramped with move slots, has extremely low special defense and often lacks enough power to get anything done on his own (not to mention Sand Tomb is ten times worse than Whirlpool, missing out key targets like Celesteela and Salamence).

Whirlpool is long from a one-trick-pony however. It can also have other situational uses like breaking Mymikiu's Disguise and Focus Sash in one go, get Hippowdon in range of a Scald KO without triggering his berry, or stacking damage with Toxic or Scald's burn against bulkier targets.
Gonna have to say no on this one. Trapping in general is not a particularly good strategy, and definitely not one of the main ways Empoleon is used given that Whirlpool has less than 1% usage on it. This indicates that Whirlpool trapping isn't really a new niche that Empoleon has developed since it was originally ranked and thus is deserving of bumping it up to B.

I think Empoleon in B- is fine, though C could work too. Its usage has been dropping every season since its peak in S11 and it never seems to do much whenever I play it on cart.
 
Hey Smogon, it's Ika again with another Snorlax nomination.

I think it is time that we put Snorlax from A- -> A.

Snorlax has only continued to rise as a metagame threat, now sitting at 21st in usage behind Naganadel and I have no doubt that it will be staying there for the rest of the generation. I think the mark of a threat that is in A tier as opposed to A- is how much it warps the meta around it and how much it is considered in teambuilding. The majority of pokemon in A- aren't generally specifically considered at the first or even second stage of teambuilding. Most teambuilders have always thought about Porygon2 when creating teams, now Snorlax is also being thought about in the same vein. I believe that the rise in Mega Lopunny, Mega Lucario and in particular Aegislash is very much because of Snorlax.

The other thing that has changed is that as top nouthuca players have had more chance to develop Snorlax, the number of tools in its arsenal has increased. The most notable example of this is double edge snorlax to give more control over bulky berry procs. Another major development is using counter to take out opposing physical threats designed to take on bulky normals such as hammer arm mega metagross on phaser sets. This is on top of all the things I mentioned in my last post.

Not of note but interesting is that snorlax is one of the few non-sturdy pokemon that can effectively use custap berry.

Anyways, those are my current thoughts.
 
Hey Smogon, it's Ika again with another Snorlax nomination.

I think it is time that we put Snorlax from A- -> A.

Snorlax has only continued to rise as a metagame threat, now sitting at 21st in usage behind Naganadel and I have no doubt that it will be staying there for the rest of the generation. I think the mark of a threat that is in A tier as opposed to A- is how much it warps the meta around it and how much it is considered in teambuilding. The majority of pokemon in A- aren't generally specifically considered at the first or even second stage of teambuilding. Most teambuilders have always thought about Porygon2 when creating teams, now Snorlax is also being thought about in the same vein. I believe that the rise in Mega Lopunny, Mega Lucario and in particular Aegislash is very much because of Snorlax.

The other thing that has changed is that as top nouthuca players have had more chance to develop Snorlax, the number of tools in its arsenal has increased. The most notable example of this is double edge snorlax to give more control over bulky berry procs. Another major development is using counter to take out opposing physical threats designed to take on bulky normals such as hammer arm mega metagross on phaser sets. This is on top of all the things I mentioned in my last post.

Not of note but interesting is that snorlax is one of the few non-sturdy pokemon that can effectively use custap berry.

Anyways, those are my current thoughts.
Second to Ika's nomination, the variety of threats that Snorlax can handle right now is astonishing, but with the semi-recent discovery of immunity snorlax, it has increased to shut down previous top tier checks, such as toxic aegislash, p2, zapdos, and any mon that tries to be cute and toxic as a surprise check (thinking things like metagross, greninja, and rotoms). Free turns off toxic wins snorlax a game on its own.
 
Nomming Moltres to C, for its Z-hurricane set.

Moltres @ Flyinium Z
Modest, High or full SpA, rest modified for your needs
- Hurricane
- Burn Up/Overheat/Fire Blast/Flamethrower
- Flame Charge
- Filler (roost, u-turn, hp ground, toxic)

Caw caw. This flaming chicken is absolutely no joke. This mon hits like a truck, with very, very few mons able to take its dual stab combination (Heatran, Chansey, basically, LOL.) Good example of its firepower (and relatively good bulk)

252+ SpA Moltres Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 184-217 (107.6 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 160-189 (96.9 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(and you can add more bulk to survive this) 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 180 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 159-187 (84.5 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


There are two obvious reasons why Moltres might flounder: mediocre speed tier combined with poor defensive typing (compounded w/ stealth rocks weakness). This combination is normally a nail in the coffin for any mon, but luckily Moltres can play around this.

With flame charge, it can remedy its relatively mediocre speed, and outspeed up to mega-Lopunny even without full speed investment. Simply put it out against a mon that definitely doesn't want to take a STAB move, forcing it to switch out (scizor, ferro, venu, aegi, kartana, volcarona), and get that free speed boost. Then, you massacre their bulky switch in w/ Z-hurricane (salamence, lando, garchomp).

With burn up and roost. It can maintain control over both its defensive typing, allowing it to play around mons that it shouldn't have any business facing. Lets use tapu fini as an example.

Turn 1:
252+ SpA Moltres Burn Up vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 47-56 (26.7 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 28 HP / 4 SpD Moltres: 94-112 (55.6 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Turn 2:
252+ SpA Moltres Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 135-160 (76.7 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This also allows you to play around 50% berry sets to nab a KO.

This mon clearly belongs with the other ranked mons, at least in C for now. We should not be like OU and be scared of ranking the bird, just to end up realizing it belonged all along when someone pilots Moltres to major placements in tournaments.
 
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Nomming Moltres to C, for its Z-hurricane set.
Now I have shown you Moltres, you are on the hype train also :P

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlespotsingles-819028984

I actually used Moltres in a tour game six months ago, although I ended up losing the set (though winning the game), you can see the Moltres vs. Defensive lando-t matchup and the utility of Burn Up, allowing me to get a KO in a situation where most people would think bulky Lando-t with rock move would win.

Something that you haven't mentioned is its strength in the 1v1 vs. Mimikyu. Moltres is one of the few pokemon that can switch directly into adamant mimikyu's lets snuggle forever and then proceed to beat Mimikyu in the 1v1 without even having to have roost, whilst having flame charge to negate sub-curse mimikyu, unlike bulkier threats that may fall to that set. This can be done by sacrificing power, going timid and moving towards hp investment whilst keeping the 138 speed benchmark.

Also another thing in the flame birds favour is its abilities, which are excellent.
 

Psynergy

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Hi, it's been awhile since we've done an update and unfortunately this is not a formal update post either. This thread hasn't been overly active understandably because there's not all that much left to really discuss for a meta that's gone largely unchanged for a year now, so there isn't a whole lot to evaluate at the moment. However, we did discuss the nominations up to this point and mostly discussed Snorlax, Porygon2, and Moltres. In the end, only Snorlax is being moved right now from A- to A which needs little explanation. To expand a little further on the general thoughts in discussion though...

Snorlax moves from A- to A in what should be an obvious and fairly overdue change. Nothing has really changed with Snorlax, it's just continued to show through its usage that it's a very dangerous threat that's gone very much unnoticed for too long. If you don't have a Fighting-type or Toxic user then Snorlax can snowball very easily and become near impossible to take down. However, this is just reiterating what has been said about Snorlax in the last vote so I'd refer to the previous vote for further thoughts on Snorlax.

Porygon2 stays in A+ rather than moving up to S, mostly because it hasn't made any strong enough impression to demand the S rank. Porygon2 is an excellent and versatile blanket check to a large portion of the metagame, this much is true, but that's about all there is to it. This is no small feat and it's large contributing factor to its rank, and it stands as another reason for why being a bulky Normal-type is very good in the current meta. However, Porygon2 does not possess the same level of oppressive power that led Mega Salamence to S rank, nor does it have the level of offensive prowess, reliability, and to a lesser extent a decent speed stat, that make Landorus-T and Mimikyu deserving of S rank as well. Its weaknesses are a little more exploitable than the S rank threats as well, so it still feels more suitable as an A+ threat at the current moment.

Moltres stays UR. This was a more interesting nomination to discuss than the others that aren't being given a full explanation, but ultimately we weren't fully convinced it needed to be ranked. In short, Moltres feels like a Pokemon that can certainly be put to effective use if only because Fire/Flying is a great offensive typing, but not much more than that. It is arguably comparable to a number of Pokemon in C rank, which if nothing else is indicative of the fact that it could definitely be justified, but Moltres doesn't feel like it makes any meaningful impact on the meta or otherwise lacks a distinct niche that's worth recommending over similar Fire-types. Z-Hurricane doesn't seem all that much different than Z-Brave Bird Talonflame which at least has conditional priority, and even that wasn't good enough. This is something that may be worth revisiting in the future but right now everyone is fairly neutral or unconvinced on Moltres being C rank.


That's about it for now, based on the fact that the meta seems to have mostly settled I don't expect this thread to get a ton of activity over the next several months, but feel free to discuss any possible changes or nominations as usual. Given the general activity of this thread it is possible that the next update may end up being the final one for Gen 7 unless activity picks up heavily (depends on when Gen 8 ends up coming out), but the meta is unlikely to see any huge meta shifts so don't feel obligated to force a discussion unless you feel a change is really worth discussing. That being said, if there are any VR placements that still really bug you then by all means, feel free to nominate or suggest changes!
 
I didn't nominate Moltres or really comment on it, but I am unsure that comparing to Talonflame is correct. Talonflame unlike Moltres is affected by intimidate, is a lot more squishy, a lot less powerful offensively and you want gale wings over flame body. Moltres can actually live super effective rock/water moves and can manipulate its type weaknesses more readily than talonflame.
 

cant say

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Any chance we could get the vote counts and rationale for the previous votes. Otherwise, good stuff to the VR team!
We were unanimous, the rationale is in Psynergy's post.

I didn't nominate Moltres or really comment on it, but I am unsure that comparing to Talonflame is correct. Talonflame unlike Moltres is affected by intimidate, is a lot more squishy, a lot less powerful offensively and you want gale wings over flame body. Moltres can actually live super effective rock/water moves and can manipulate its type weaknesses more readily than talonflame.
Well I mean they're both Fire/Flying types that like to use a Flying-type Z move. Maybe the comparison is a bit loose because Moltres' use is so niche to begin with that nothing really compares in the first place. As for a Fire-type Z move user it's heavily outclassed by Volcarona, which can also do the bulky Flame Body thing too. The only reason you'd opt for Moltres as far as I know is if you're weak to Blaziken.

I would argue that Flame Body Talonflame outclasses Moltres. Since being a Mimikyu check was raised in the original Moltres post we'll go with that for comparing them. Talonflame outspeed Mimi without investment which means you can go full 252/252 for max bulk, and still fire off Taunt/Wisp/Roost/kill move before getting hit. Moltres can only outspeed Adamant Mimi if running Timid itself, meaning it lacks out on bulk, and if you're going for bulk over speed then you risk losing to Never Ending Nightmare.

I just don't see any reason to run Moltres outside style points, or your weakness to Blaziken is so bad it can't be covered by something else (but trying to check that with something 4x weak to Stealth Rock is a mish anyway considering how common Blaziken + rocks user is). As someone who's used Pyroar a decent amount even I'm not convinced about Moltres.

I'm also not really comfortable having Moltres in the same tier as Vivillon, Eevee, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Aerodactyl, or any of the others really. I feel like it's strictly worse than all of them there.
 
Still strongly in favor of Aegislash to S. In the middle of yet another pre-test day for school, so I'll elaborate more on my nomination later in the week, but right now sets w/ ghostium Z shadow ball, toxic, king's shield, and any filler move are darn near impossible to stop. This mon is one of the best leads in the game, being OHKO'ed by almost nothing while being able to OHKO back, has king's shield to scout out sets (incredibly potent on choice locked mons such as thundy-T and lando-T), and toxic to cripple just about any mon that doesn't mind shadowball (snorlax, kanga, SpD hippo, P2, gyara).

Same with Vivillon to B-, this seems almost forgone at this point. Vivillon basically invalidates half the teams in our meta. Try using Greil's haunted tower against it, see how that goes (I've tried, and only won against Ika once by dodging 2 sleep powders and a hurricane). It basically requires Fini/Koko/Metagross to be on a team, which is incredibly restricting, and isn't even useless in the games where those 3 do feature.
 
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Well I mean they're both Fire/Flying types that like to use a Flying-type Z move. Maybe the comparison is a bit loose because Moltres' use is so niche to begin with that nothing really compares in the first place. As for a Fire-type Z move user it's heavily outclassed by Volcarona, which can also do the bulky Flame Body thing too. The only reason you'd opt for Moltres as far as I know is if you're weak to Blaziken.

I would argue that Flame Body Talonflame outclasses Moltres. Since being a Mimikyu check was raised in the original Moltres post we'll go with that for comparing them. Talonflame outspeed Mimi without investment which means you can go full 252/252 for max bulk, and still fire off Taunt/Wisp/Roost/kill move before getting hit. Moltres can only outspeed Adamant Mimi if running Timid itself, meaning it lacks out on bulk, and if you're going for bulk over speed then you risk losing to Never Ending Nightmare.

I just don't see any reason to run Moltres outside style points, or your weakness to Blaziken is so bad it can't be covered by something else (but trying to check that with something 4x weak to Stealth Rock is a mish anyway considering how common Blaziken + rocks user is). As someone who's used Pyroar a decent amount even I'm not convinced about Moltres.

I'm also not really comfortable having Moltres in the same tier as Vivillon, Eevee, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Aerodactyl, or any of the others really. I feel like it's strictly worse than all of them there.
Personally, I'm not sold on Moltres being in C tier for the same reasons that you put in your last sentence, though I don't think that Vivillon is a particularly good example of a C mon. That mon is a terror and should probably be B- in my opinion. Generally how I, at least nominate pokemon is that I look at the tier and think that this mon is better than most of the others in the tier therefore it should be there. Moltres in my mind is in the middle of C after using it extensively. To me at least that's not good enough at the low benchmark that C is to nom it.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure on your reasoning. Moltres can use Flame Charge to break mimikyu's disguise, meaning it always be faster no matter what speed investment and it always takes ghostium-z into sneak with ease meaning it could never lose to that set. In general, Moltres cannot lose to Ghostium-z unlike Talonflame or Volcarona because it has something that both severely lack: Natural bulk which comes into play outside of the mimikyu matchup. It does not need to hit a WoW to win the matchup or use WoW in its set. To compare defences, you are looking at a mon with 90/90/85 defences and saying that mons with 78/71/69 and 85/65/105 defences can take physical hits as well. It's a simple numbers game. Moltres naturally with no investment can take a max adamant mega salamence's double edge as well as defensive Landorus-T's Rock Tomb, a feat that Talonflame and Volcarona could only dream of. It doesn't need defence investment or a bulky berry, you can run a z-move and a full offensive set on it because unlike either of those mons Moltres is actually fat.

Mimikyu is only actually 1 example, Moltres can actually 1v1 Tapu Fini the majority of the time, even if it is waterium-z, something that neither talonflame nor Volcarona can do. This applies to other water types like Gyarados too. Id also say that z-hurricane is better than any equivalent that Volc or Talonflame can go for.

I dunno, I'd try out Moltres personally, there's good reason that you see it popping up more and more on top teams, not just that it is literally flames though that is also true.
 
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