Resource BSS Viability Rankings

Jhon

Show me something eternal
is a Tiering Contributor
I think this actually work against Meta. No matter what you choose, it's going to be hardwalled by something which requires extra team support. It's kind of similar to why Volcarona is only A; you'd think being able to run a billion Z moves would make it more viable, but no matter what you choose it's going to lose to something. Both Meta and Volc can either 3-0 a team or be useless in a game. I don't see Meta as being as viable as say the Zards or Gyara, just like Volc isn't a splashable as Gren or Naga.
I don’t thinkit’s similar to volc. Volc is more about finding the one safe turn to get going, and due to frailty and sr weakness one turn is too often all it has. Meta uses its bulk/typing, which are fantastic, to switch in more often and start breaking things down for other mons. It can only truly sweep if things have been weakened for it. It also has tools outside of attacking with its broad coverage. Fairly strong Priority in Bullet Punch, SR and some even use Pursuit.
It’s much more of a team player than many other mega or offensive mons. And being able to pick and choose what role it performs and what mons it uses that extra bit of coverage to dismantle really plays into that.
I genuinely think Meta is a top3 mega alongside Mence and Gengar (side note: M-Blaze down from S please).
 
chemcoop

I'm unsure about Nihilego. One of the reasons I did not nominate it is actually I think it is pretty decent and have no strong feeling about it. Is it better than Kartana that also lives in the A- tier? Hell no. Of the mons in that tier, it has the worst usage though by some way. I can definitely see a case for it being brought down to B+. The main argument I would use against Nihilego is based on the definitions given within the tier list:

A rank

Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the Battle Spot Singles metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.
B rank

Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the Battle Spot Singles metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the format. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
I'd argue Nihilego fits closer in with what the council itself defines as B rank than A rank. It's just like Kommo-o all over again, the "I'm a great mon honest, I just happen to get invalidated vs. fairy types". That's fine, except most teams have a tapu or mimikyu so Kommo-o isn't an S tier mon.

Now one can quote how many mons Kommo-o can live a hit from and Z in the current meta, but this is all rather irrelevant in the context of overall team composition which is very likely to have a fairy mon. This is in my mind Nihilego's failing. One can go it sucks vs. two types (Steel and Ground). Even if it was great against the other 15 types, this is still a notable flaw within the context of the metagame and this is why Nihilego has the worst usage out of all A- mons.

To best explain why this is, I'll give you an idea of how I personally team build and evaluate teams. Generally in the back of my mind, I want some sort of check to the most common meta threats. Amongst the top five things I'm thinking of, what switch-in do I have to tapu lele?

What is the best switch-in to tapu lele? Steel types.

All nine nihilego teams used by top players in the last two seasons on nouthuca have a steel type on them. What happens to check to one of the meta defining mons also happens to dunk on nihilego, which is no tapu lele even if steel type didn't exist. Steel isn't just any type, it's arguably the best defensive typing in bss and it is uncommon to see a team without a steel. It has a further flaw to just plain dying to any earthquake which is very common or even earth power from heatran. Nihilego has other flaws like its weak physical bulk so it will be OHKOed by non-super effective moves from powerful mons (zard x's outrage for example), having not quite enough special attack to be a real threatening self sufficient scarfer given or to kill most things in one hit given its typing and an underwhelming movepool.

I don't have a problem with Nihilego being in A-, I personally think it is a great mon. I don't think it is good to write off its flaws, they are numerous and they are big. I'd happily see it in B+ too.

cant say

I think comparing Metagross to Volcarona is not a great comparison as I think they serve completely different roles. Metagross does generally not die to one hit and does not need to set up to do its role which is generally to start punching holes through teams with both its speed and power. It has great resistances too, unlike volcarona's typing which leaves a bit to be desired, especially the rock weakness. Needless to say, their bulk cannot be compared either. Being able to switch into Tapus is great too. I think a well played metagross is useful in practically every game. It also has the fortune of just generally being an excellent mon to build with. Volcarona is a very threatening mon but it is one of those mons you have to build around, whether its making sure rocks aren't on the field, having support mons to create the conditions for Volc to set up or counters to mons that check Volc. By contrast, Metagross is one of those mons that you can build around it and then change its moveset and coverage to suit the team. It is also a great secondary mega for this reason.

Ultimately I think it shows in the usage, 2nd behind mega salamence for megas overall and more commonly used in teambuilding at the top level of play on cartridge than even mega mence.
 
Last edited:
About what i said about blissey being c I think it could also be b- but i definitely think C is for sure deserved for blissey.
 

Jhon

Show me something eternal
is a Tiering Contributor
I was simply comparing the way in which both Metagross and Volcarona have to choose what walls them based on what coverage you use. Nowhere did I say they perform similar roles in teams...
I didn't think you did. Was just trying to say the 'choose what walls you' is far less of an issue, a non-issue even, for Meta because it plays a drastically different role and not something to justifying holding it back in 'only A'. Further still that Volc is less viable because of the other problems it has, and not the coverage conundrum. None of which are a big deal for Meta.
 
I have a few points i want to bring up in my spare time. Hello this may seem odd but the first think i want to see is a s+ rank this is not needed but I just feel mega mence and mimikyu and Lando outperform the mom I'm making but it should raise. mega gar could be added and is remove blaze mega . Adding s- could work.I think c rank should also be split apart. My reasoning for this is because there are some pokemon like pykumuku that has a small reason to be on the thread and I don't think should be ur the argument against this is that there are not enough pokemon in c rank. We could add more nieche options here not on the vr. v


Finally the point that I really want to be added is scolopede l think that no one noticed it was not on the vr i see no reason for it not to be ranked. this pokemon has iron defense and more speed to set itself apart from blaziken . It can afford to not run focus sash unlike blaziken. I think it should be b or b- when comparing it to c it's way better in general same with b- imo. But i think b is too high so I won't ever be happy.


note I will talk about mega gar
 
Last edited:
Since this thread has been incredibly active lately gonna nom something i think is due to be discussed. Snorlax B -> B+

This mon has rose a lot in usage and has been popping up pretty consistently on high rated teams. Not only as a yawn/ww phaser like we saw come up months ago but also just the standard curse set. It's semi-reliable recovery with the fantastic bulk make this thing a really nice set up sweeper. If your team isn't packing something like toxic it can be tough to take this thing out as it isn't going down to simple ice beams and such like Mega Mence would. With a lot of P2's opting to drop toxic and go for 3 attacks with Foul Play to help with Mimikyu i think it puts Snorlax in a good spot. B feels way too low for a mon that's becoming a staple part of the meta and I think you could even make a case for A-, but I feel like B+ is more of a right fit.
 
Since this thread has been incredibly active lately gonna nom something i think is due to be discussed. Snorlax B -> B+

This mon has rose a lot in usage and has been popping up pretty consistently on high rated teams. Not only as a yawn/ww phaser like we saw come up months ago but also just the standard curse set. It's semi-reliable recovery with the fantastic bulk make this thing a really nice set up sweeper. If your team isn't packing something like toxic it can be tough to take this thing out as it isn't going down to simple ice beams and such like Mega Mence would. With a lot of P2's opting to drop toxic and go for 3 attacks with Foul Play to help with Mimikyu i think it puts Snorlax in a good spot. B feels way too low for a mon that's becoming a staple part of the meta and I think you could even make a case for A-, but I feel like B+ is more of a right fit.
I agree on Lax, I've been saying it's been slept on for a while. The curse set especially is overlooked, it is just as good as the yawn/ww one. It holds a key niche in the meta too, being able to consistently take on both Z-Hydrocannon Greninja and Protean Greninja.
 
Just a note, went on Nouthuca and had a look at last/this season's usage rate on Japanese Blog teams (Total sample size of 323 teams) down until about the 2.5% usage mark. May have missed a mon or two, but nothing above B- on the viability rankings:

Screen Shot 2018-07-04 at 19.29.43.png

Screen Shot 2018-07-04 at 19.26.41.png

Screen Shot 2018-07-04 at 19.26.54.png

EDIT I forgot to put Zard X on and will update the table soon. Its usage is 24 and is joint with Garchomp.

I'd like to use the above as part of the evidence to nominate mega blaziken down from S tier. Its fellow S tier compatriots (Mega Salamence, Landorus-T and Mimikyu) are top 5 usage on High ranked Japanese blog teams whereas Mega Blaziken is joint 36th. That makes it the joint 9th most common mega after Mega Salamence, Mega Metagross, Mega Gengar, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Mawile, Mega Charizard X, Mega Gyarados and joint with Mega Tyranitar.

Why should something joint 9th in usage be considered joint 1st when it comes to viability?
 
Last edited:
Why should something joint 9th in usage be considered joint 1st when it comes to viability?
The things are for sure related but...
In my opinion there are two factors that can influence the % of the usages, making them a little bit different frmo the viability rankings.
  • Risk / Reward ratio.
    There are certain playstyles that overall pay more. For istance you can take a crit if you're running a stall or a bulky offense team, but you can't if you're playing a hyper offense. This means that frail mons such as Blaziken or Gengar could be choiced (a little) less even if they are indeed top threats.

  • Team building, easy vs hard.
    Similar as the first reason, but related to team building.
    People may lean towards "cheap" stuff that can act as glue for teams, such as Mimikyu or Landorus. These mons are high in the vr specially for this reason.
    On the other hand there are mons that are indeed strong, but can act less like this. Let's take Mega Gengar.
    Mega Gengar can be a game changer alone, but it is a high risk / high reward pokemon, and it always will be easier to put a mimikyu in a team instead of it.


    So yeah, it could be a little tricky to straightly say "usage = viability" cause it's not always like that, even though you'd never find an S tier mon that isn't used at least in the top 10
 
Last edited:
The things are for sure related but...
In my opinion there are two factors that can influence the % of the usages, making them a little bit different frmo the viability rankings.
  • Risk / Reward ratio.
    There are certain playstyles that overall pay more. For istance you can take a crit if you're running a stall or a bulky offense team, but you can't if you're playing a hyper offense. This means that frail mons such as Blaziken or Gengar could be choiced (a little) less even if they are indeed top threats.

  • Team building, easy vs hard.
    Similar as the first reason, but related to team building.
    People may lean towards "cheap" stuff that can act as glue for teams, such as Mimikyu or Landorus. These mons are high in the vr specially for this reason.
    On the other hand there are mons that are indeed strong, but can act less like this. Let's take Mega Gengar.
    Mega Gengar can be a game changer alone, but it is a high risk / high reward pokemon, and it always will be easier to put a mimikyu in a team instead of it.


    So yeah, it could be a little tricky to straightly say "usage = viability" cause it's not always like that, even though you'd never find an S tier mon that isn't used at least in the top 10
I agree with these things for sure, but don't you think these factors above should be factored into viability? A correlation to look at so to speak rather than a direct 1:1 comparison or causation.

I have no doubt that Mega Blaziken is an excellent mon with both fantastic dual stab and ability, being one of my personal favourite megas to use. I cannot however in good conscience put it in my top 3 megas, I'd put Mence, Metagross and Gengar above it. Blaziken in my mind is 5th after Zard Y. Again, this is just my personal opinion and I'm not doubting that it is a truly excellent mon in BSS.

I do think that usage does count to an extent when the difference between the perception and reality is this large. There is an element to playing safe in teambuilding, you cited Mega Gengar vs. Mimikyu and it is obvious that the former is favoured because of how easy it is to fit on teams and how consistent it is. Mega Gengar though is still heavily valued because the rewards of using it, especially in certain matchups, far outweigh the detriments and shadow tag means that you don't have the option to switch into a mega gar check when it comes in. I wonder in the case of Mega Blaziken, though its strengths clearly outweigh its weaknesses, how much do they do this? Perhaps it is the higher risk or relative lower reward rather than teambuilding constraints themselves that has lowered Mega Blaziken's usage.

I definitely don't think it helps that Mega Blaziken struggles versus a lot of the most common mons in the meta the most important ones being Mimikyu, Landorus-T, Tapu Fini, Mega Salamence and Hippowdon. I could list far more checks to mega blaziken lower down in usage/viability like Suicune, Garchomp, Gyarados, Azumarill, Mega Slowbro and Toxapex also, so the list only really begins here. Even other top mons depending on the set can beat Mega Blaziken. As well as that, the mere presence of a ghost type on the enemy team can often prevent a Mega Blaziken player from clicking one of its best moves (HJK) making a risk of doing 50% to yourself, though I think this is less important given Blazikens general role.

Yes in theory with the correct Blaziken set you can get past the most common sets of the mons in the top 10 usage that check Mega Blaziken (except Tapu Fini), but you can't get past all of them simultaneously. Furthermore, often opposing teams will have multiple Blaziken checks (not specifically for mega blaziken, but because they blanket check a lot of mons) that require different coverage moves to deal with. You cannot lure in generally more than 1 or 2 of Blazikens numerous checks with your coverage or SD as generally most people run the same three moves (Protect, HJK and Blitz) and often these coverage moves don't work perfectly either. TPunch is a 4HKO on bulky berry Max Defence Fini which can OHKO with Hydro Pump anyways or 2HKO with another Water attack. HP Ice will kill no bulk Lando, but generally you need to run +spa nature with significant SpA investment which heavily sacrifices the power of HJK and Flare Blitz and OHKOs back with Earthquake. Similar story with mega salamence, except the trending mega mence eats all HP Ices from Mega Blaziken and KOs with any Aerialite attack or EQ. Defensive hippo lives everything except max roll +2 HJK and almost always KOs back with EQ with Sandstorm. Adamant Mimikyu's LSF into Play rough into shadow sneak KOs no HP invested Mega Blaziken even if LSF is protected.

Ultimately, if a mon is one of the best four mons in the meta game but it has some risk involved, top players are still going to use it. They aren't though. Mega Blaziken isn't one of the best four mons in the meta game, I'd argue it is somewhere in the 10th-20th range. That's why I'm nomming it down.
 
Last edited:
If the council does agree to break up S rank im thinking


1


S+ Mega Salamence, Mimikyu, Lando

S Mega Gengar, Gren (I forgot who made the post but gren is definitely worthy of a S ranking with its coverage and power)



2


S Mega Salamence, Mimikyu, Lando

S Greninja (I forgot who made the post but gren is definitely worthy of a S ranking with its coverage and power)

S- Mega Gar



Mega Gengar


Gengar-Mega (ignoring abilities):

Weaknesses: Dark, Ghost, Ground, Psychic

Resistances: Bug, Fairy, Grass, Poison

Immunities: Fighting, Normal


Reasons why I strongly believe Mega Gengar Should be S tier.


#1 Its buff in auto speed. It is able to outspeed the faster of the pokemon it wants to beat. It speed ties with Tapu Koko.


#2 Its coverage, Versatility.


The coverage fills in for your teams weaknesses. It also has a lot of versatility

Destiny Bond
You always want to trade 1 for 1 at least Destiny Bond is tech and if your oppoennt goes to ko you and you use this they will die themselves.

Disable
It is able to use this combined with substitute to kill opposing threats.

Focus Blast
Dark types are no counter anymore, well some may be I guess and all are when you miss……

Giga Drain
Able to heal you while hitting mega pert, water types, ground types.

Hex
One of mega gengars best moves lets it deal with gliscor wisp pokemon like celesteela and hex it ect.

Perish Song
This pokemon Gets shadow Tag substitute protect and perish song JUSt showing that it is capable of trapping many pokemon I personally like Perish Sub Shadow Ball Sludge Bomb(It Might Be Just Me) because you can perish pokemon switching into it when you are in normal form and it give you the ability to remove your counter in a sense.

Protect
Only really works on the perish set and is really outclassed by substitute on every other set it can find some niche play to get shadow tag and be able to deal with faster threats but not much is faster than mega gengar.

Psychic
Don't get me wrong. This is very niche most things it beats with this also lose to perish song.

Shadow Ball
This is your main stab and is used on basically every Mega gengar set besides hex gar.

Substitute
This is a glue to a lot of Gengar sets it lets it protect itself from the next pokemon to come in after killing something free you from potential status and or let you mega evolve to gain SHADOW TAG.

Taunt
Taunts pokemon Like chansey so they cant soft boiled and pp stall you and more.

Thunderbolt
Niche. I might as well say dazzling gleam is another niche option. This helps with coverage 4 example icy wind + t bolt hits pelipper and stuff like that. (also if you want to run mega gar on a rain team first why? Second run thunder.

Will-O-Wisp
Burns Pokemon Like celesteela

Double Team
really bad, Pls dont use!!LOL

Hidden Power
Gives it something else. Not seen often

Hypnosis
Hypnosis + sub is a threat allowing you to(if you land the hypnosis) Sub up and possibly ko the opponent and still have a sub. Helps it abuse hex.

Icy Wind
Hits Gliscor, Lando-T, Mega Mence, and more. Able to slow down dragon types dding on you most will not because this is #3 in usage.

Psych Up
Helps vs eevee Bp which is rare and annoys minimize users so it has a chance to beat them.

Reflect Type
Can copy the opposing pokemon's TYPE!! Helps you “resist” the opposing attack and vs gliscor you can beat it wo/ hex.

Toxic
Not really seen over wisp does help vbs a few things but i wouldn't use it. I mean it doesn't miss if you want to deal with minimize.

Energy Ball
Finds more use then Giga drain for its higher power. DOes not give recovery. Can spd Drop.

Sludge Bomb
Chance to poison strong stab.



Some Sets. I posted the ones on https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/gengar/battle_spot_singles/



Because big movepool there are other options, Gengar can adapt to your team is it must with any of the moves I mentioned but the ones below are the best and work on mainly every team that gar helps.



Gengar @ Gengarite

Ability: Levitate

EVs: 236 HP / 4 Def / 12 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Timid Nature

- Will-O-Wisp

- Sludge Bomb

- Hex

- Destiny Bond



Gengar @ Gengarite

Ability: Levitate

EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Timid Nature

- Shadow Ball

- Sludge Bomb

- Destiny Bond

- Icy Wind



Gengar @ Gengarite

Ability: Levitate

EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

Timid Nature

- Perish Song

- Protect

- Substitute

- Shadow Ball



Gengar @ Gengarite

Ability: Levitate

EVs: 236 HP / 4 Def / 12 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Timid Nature

- Hypnosis

- Substitute

- Hex

- Focus Blast



Mega Gengar Good traits



  • Fast
  • Has hex and can trap msot walls with good predictions.
  • Great Offenses
  • Sub makes it hard to revenge kill
  • Can beat many frail Mons
  • Good Movepool
  • Absorbs Toxic
  • Immune To fighting and ghost to help it come in
  • Can hit mega salamence and lando hard you do have to be aware that both can ohko you and lando runs scarf.
  • COVERAGE
  • Shadow Tag
  • If played Correctly it is easy to get at least one kill per game.
  • Taunt
  • GREAT OFFENSIVE TYPING
  • NOTHING RESISTS FOCUS BLAST + SLUDGE BOMB + SHADOW BALL
  • Great vs Stall and some HOs to the point where it wins the game almost solo.
Bad traits

  • Frail
  • Takes Skill(yes you have to be good to use this LOL)
  • If outplayed could die
  • VS rain or Sand you most likely will have to bench it
  • Relies on prediction in ⅗ of games
S Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the Battle Spot Singles metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.



I think that Mega Gengar definitely fits that. How frail it is and the predictions IMO are

outshined by how good this mon is at removing pokemon and in a 3v3 format ye you only have a few times you can bring it in but at the same time it is more devastating when a pokemon dies.



I would add replays but im al little late to put this out there ngl.
 
Last edited:

chemcoop

When in doubt, Rock Slide out!
is a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
If the council does agree to break up S rank im thinking


1


S+ Mega Salamence, Mimikyu, Lando

S Mega Gengar, Gren (I forgot who made the post but gren is definitely worthy of a S ranking with its coverage and power)



2


S Mega Salamence, Mimikyu, Lando

S Greninja (I forgot who made the post but gren is definitely worthy of a S ranking with its coverage and power)

S- Mega Gar



Mega Gengar


Gengar-Mega (ignoring abilities):

Weaknesses: Dark, Ghost, Ground, Psychic

Resistances: Bug, Fairy, Grass, Poison

Immunities: Fighting, Normal


Reasons why I strongly believe Mega Gengar Should be S tier.


#1 Its buff in auto speed. It is able to outspeed the faster of the pokemon it wants to beat. It speed ties with Tapu Koko.


#2 Its coverage, Versatility.


The coverage fills in for your teams weaknesses. It also has a lot of versatility

Destiny Bond
You always want to trade 1 for 1 at least Destiny Bond is tech and if your oppoennt goes to ko you and you use this they will die themselves.

Disable
It is able to use this combined with substitute to kill opposing threats.

Focus Blast
Dark types are no counter anymore, well some may be I guess and all are when you miss……

Giga Drain
Able to heal you while hitting mega pert, water types, ground types.

Hex
One of mega gengars best moves lets it deal with gliscor wisp pokemon like celesteela and hex it ect.

Perish Song
This pokemon Gets shadow Tag substitute protect and perish song JUSt showing that it is capable of trapping many pokemon I personally like Perish Sub Shadow Ball Sludge Bomb(It Might Be Just Me) because you can perish pokemon switching into it when you are in normal form and it give you the ability to remove your counter in a sense.

Protect
Only really works on the perish set and is really outclassed by substitute on every other set it can find some niche play to get shadow tag and be able to deal with faster threats but not much is faster than mega gengar.

Psychic
Don't get me wrong. This is very niche most things it beats with this also lose to perish song.

Shadow Ball
This is your main stab and is used on basically every Mega gengar set besides hex gar.

Substitute
This is a glue to a lot of Gengar sets it lets it protect itself from the next pokemon to come in after killing something free you from potential status and or let you mega evolve to gain SHADOW TAG.

Taunt
Taunts pokemon Like chansey so they cant soft boiled and pp stall you and more.

Thunderbolt
Niche. I might as well say dazzling gleam is another niche option. This helps with coverage 4 example icy wind + t bolt hits pelipper and stuff like that. (also if you want to run mega gar on a rain team first why? Second run thunder.

Will-O-Wisp
Burns Pokemon Like celesteela

Double Team
really bad, Pls dont use!!LOL

Hidden Power
Gives it something else. Not seen often

Hypnosis
Hypnosis + sub is a threat allowing you to(if you land the hypnosis) Sub up and possibly ko the opponent and still have a sub. Helps it abuse hex.

Icy Wind
Hits Gliscor, Lando-T, Mega Mence, and more. Able to slow down dragon types dding on you most will not because this is #3 in usage.

Psych Up
Helps vs eevee Bp which is rare and annoys minimize users so it has a chance to beat them.

Reflect Type
Can copy the opposing pokemon's TYPE!! Helps you “resist” the opposing attack and vs gliscor you can beat it wo/ hex.

Toxic
Not really seen over wisp does help vbs a few things but i wouldn't use it. I mean it doesn't miss if you want to deal with minimize.

Energy Ball
Finds more use then Giga drain for its higher power. DOes not give recovery. Can spd Drop.

Sludge Bomb
Chance to poison strong stab.



Some Sets. I posted the ones on https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/gengar/battle_spot_singles/



Because big movepool there are other options, Gengar can adapt to your team is it must with any of the moves I mentioned but the ones below are the best and work on mainly every team that gar helps.



Gengar @ Gengarite

Ability: Levitate

EVs: 236 HP / 4 Def / 12 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Timid Nature

- Will-O-Wisp

- Sludge Bomb

- Hex

- Destiny Bond



Gengar @ Gengarite

Ability: Levitate

EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Timid Nature

- Shadow Ball

- Sludge Bomb

- Destiny Bond

- Icy Wind



Gengar @ Gengarite

Ability: Levitate

EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

Timid Nature

- Perish Song

- Protect

- Substitute

- Shadow Ball



Gengar @ Gengarite

Ability: Levitate

EVs: 236 HP / 4 Def / 12 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Timid Nature

- Hypnosis

- Substitute

- Hex

- Focus Blast



Mega Gengar Good traits



  • Fast
  • Has hex and can trap msot walls with good predictions.
  • Great Offenses
  • Sub makes it hard to revenge kill
  • Can beat many frail Mons
  • Good Movepool
  • Absorbs Toxic
  • Immune To fighting and ghost to help it come in
  • Can hit mega salamence and lando hard you do have to be aware that both can ohko you and lando runs scarf.
  • COVERAGE
  • Shadow Tag
  • If played Correctly it is easy to get at least one kill per game.
  • Taunt
  • GREAT OFFENSIVE TYPING
  • NOTHING RESISTS FOCUS BLAST + SLUDGE BOMB + SHADOW BALL
  • Great vs Stall and some HOs to the point where it wins the game almost solo.
Bad traits

  • Frail
  • Takes Skill(yes you have to be good to use this LOL)
  • If outplayed could die
  • VS rain or Sand you most likely will have to bench it
  • Relies on prediction in ⅗ of games
S Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the Battle Spot Singles metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.



I think that Mega Gengar definitely fits that. How frail it is and the predictions IMO are

outshined by how good this mon is at removing pokemon and in a 3v3 format ye you only have a few times you can bring it in but at the same time it is more devastating when a pokemon dies.



I would add replays but im al little late to put this out there ngl.
Hey dude! Thanks for contributing to the VR with your M-Gengar post. Definitely appreciate how much time and effort you put into this, and I just wanted to offer some suggestions for making your posts a bit more readable so that way people looking through the VR can get quickly get to the important parts of each post.

First off, you can go ahead and assume if someone is looking at the VR, they at least have some basic knowledge about competitive, so listing all of the weaknesses/resists of the Pokémon you are talking about isn't necessary. Similarly, if there is a really unique (but viable!) set you want to talk about, by all means post it, but otherwise if it's available elsewhere on Smogon there is no need to repost it.

I like how you brought up all of the moves M-Gengar can viably run but, I think you could definitely shorten that list and combine it with the ways in which those moves make M-Gengar worthy of S rank. For example, instead of talking about Perish Song, Protect, and Substitute separately, you could instead say something like "a Perish Song variant of M-Gengar with Sub and Protect can easily trap stall pokemon like Toxapex thanks to Shadow Tag and can break through key elements of stall for your other 2 Pokémon to win the game."

Finally, I think another way you can condense your post + make a stronger argument is to give an example of how one or more of M-Gengar's traits makes it effective, rather than just listing out everything separately. You could say something like "Mega Gengar's great speed tier and Shadow Tag allows it to trap and KO all 4 Tapus (barring Scarf Lele and Scarf Physical Koko) and its excellent coverage allows it to surprise Pokémon like M-Salamence and Lando-T with Icy Wind and Hippowdon with Energy Ball."

Hope these pointers help, and we'd love to have you keep contributing to the VR!
 
Well then in the next viability ranking update
Entei from B to UR ?)
The VR council votes on pokemon primarily through what's discussed here, not a scheduled sweep of the list polishing each mon into the correct tier. And pokemon that are low in the ranks like B and below will generally not move much unless someone in this thread mentions it or there's a significant change in the meta that has made a mon better or worse. So if you think a mon isn't worth the spot it's at, instead of asking why it's still there, tell us about why you think it sucks.
 

Psynergy

It's all for you.
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Time to update this thread, this will likely be the only update until the end of BSPL unless this thread happens to be very active during that period like it was this last update. In this update everyone except Theorymon voted, so there are 7 votes in total for each nomination. There were a few additional nominations that DragonWhale made in discussion that weren't posted in this thread, though almost every nomination made in this thread until this point has been voted on, the exceptions being Greninja and Nihilego. Greninja got a resounding no from most of us in casual discussion so we skipped that vote and chemcoop's post on Nihilego was thorough enough of a response that we're just leaving it at that for now. Entei was also posted too late to be on this vote but I'd like to see more detailed reasoning on that one before next vote, I think it is a good one to look at.

One quick note though, we're not going to be splitting S rank at any point in the near future since it kinda ruins the point of S rank to begin with. The power differential isn't lopsided enough for us to justify ranking them within S rank the same way Ubers handles Primal Groudon, and if we think something should move in or out of S rank we'll do so. Coincidentally this does come into play a bit during this vote, so I'll just get right into it. As always, let me know if something is missing or wrong!

Tapu Fini: A -> A+
cant say: agree. super versatile, misty terrain is so good. when people start running Grassium Greninja to tech for it you know it's an A+ threat.

chemcoop: A+

DragonWhale: A+. It is proving to be extremely versatile with the use of taunt skyrocketing, as well as being the best bulky offense water pokemon on par with mega gyarados; both have taunt, a fantastic setup move, and ability, but tapu fini has less sweeping potential in exchange of not taking a mega slot and with a bonus of making itself and teammates immune to status.

greilmercenary9: Fini is the best bulky water in the metagame right now and can function in a variety of roles. It hits hard with offensive sets, has enough bulk to live SE attacks you wouldn't expect, can CM and/or Taunt to ruin defensive mons, and gives a bunch of things that might otherwise be better problems just through its ability. Easily A+ material.

NOVED: great typing, great utility, really solid mon. A has seemed to fit fine for it for a while but now with torrent greninja on a big rise and hippo teams being as common as ever i think this is in a deserving spot for A+

Psynergy: An excellent bulky Water and often the first thing I think of when I notice my team is "weak to x" so that must be a good thing. Having to give up offensive presence or good bulk is annoying though. I'll make this easy and agree with A+ even though I'm not entirely sure, probably rises regardless.

Solerme: Good mon, nice ability. Nice movepool. Good stats. I agree with you guys

Mega Metagross: A -> A+
cant say: agree. one of the most consistent megas with coverage options galore. unfort 4mss and no good boosting options stops it being S imo

chemcoop: A+

DragonWhale: A+. It is perhaps the best mega that can go against mence, as well as most other mega evolutions. Takes a lot of chip damage and doesn't have recovery so it isn't fit for long term battles but in most conditions it can destroy teams before that becomes an issue.

greilmercenary9: One of the most used megas on top ranked teams for good reason. Bulky enough to tank some hits, hits hard enough to sweep, and custom coverage to take on whatever your team needs it to, with options like Hammer Arm becoming more popular to complement the old Double Punch set.

NOVED: yeah this one of the best megas in the game, great sets of attacks with solid power, good typing. its hard to switch around against this mon and its just very consistent. feels like a solid A+.

Psynergy: I strongly disagree that this is the best Mega in the game and I'm not 100% sold that this is A+ either, though it is probably the Mega I've had most success with this gen. I guess I'm ok with this rising but I think it could easily fall back down to A depending on meta trends.

Solerme: Yes, this thing is the definition of tank. Can take hits and fires back as well. It even has a very good speed tier and a great movepool. A+

Garchomp: A -> A-
cant say: eh disagree I think. SD Z move sets are really solid and can still run Scarf / Sash sets to revenge a bunch of the meta effectively.

chemcoop: A-

DragonWhale: A-. Long live the king.

greilmercenary9: I think this echoes the vote on Kang last season: a fall from truly elite status in ORAS that casts a more negative light on the mon than what is deserved. Still a strong SR lead or dedicated setup lead that can also bust holes with SD + Dragonium/Sash sets, but it does struggle more than even with checks like Mimikyu and Celesteela everywhere. But for the landshark, struggling more than ever only means that it isn’t meta defining, not that it isn’t effective.

NOVED: yeah not a big fan of this. i like lando much more as a ground type for almost all of chomps roles. dragon stab isnt particularly useful in a huge amount of scenarios anymore. it of course has some legitimacy over lando, but i dont think it has enough to warrant A rank.

Psynergy: Nah I think people sleep on Garchomp too much, myself included. While it may not be the meta defining god it used to be this thing always poses a serious threat when I see it in Team Preview. Scarf sets are still scary and its other sets are still good, it's just not dominant anymore.

Solerme: Honestly we're going a little bit too hard on this. I agree that the S days are over and i do agree that it's hard to find space in the A+s, yet this thing is good. It still acts like glue for teams, and his choiced sets are threats. Plus SD + Z can nuke everything out. A.

Mega Slowbro: B+ -> B
cant say: disagree. been using this a lot lately and I think it's better than people think. yeah it takes that "precious" mega slot but it's defensive / gluemon capabilities are so good, plus it actually does damage rather than sitting there doing passive damage like most Blaziken / Mence / Meta checks. Calm Mind and/or Iron Defense are cool too.

chemcoop: B+

DragonWhale: abstain. can't say enough for or against this mon to pick between B and B+

greilmercenary9: B+, It's hurt by a weakness to Mimikyu and Toxic, but its immense physical bulk and fairly strong matchups against some top line megas mean that it has a niche as both a physical wall and as a more offensive TR setting option. It can even try to set up since Shell Armor prevents opponents from haxing through with crits, but it's fighting uphill to get enough boosts in such a fast paced meta. Regenerator as a pre-mega ability is also a boon, and while it also makes deciding when to mega is a headache because doing so loses the Regen utility, it isn't the only mega that has issues like this (Gyarados in particular has similar issues, and to a lesser degree Salamence also faces losing some of its utility when going mega as well). It fits on certain stall builds or even some bulky offense, and has credible offenses, setup, and TR access to differentiate itself from more passive bulky waters.

NOVED: i dont think this mon is really that bad, the defense is incredible and it has a wide range of attacks it can use that are really solid. its not the staple it once was on stall but its still solid mon, on other archetypes besides hard stall as well. if blaziken ever sees a comeback in the meta this will probably get better as well. you could make an argument that because blaziken usage is going down maybe this isnt b+ but i'd disagree. this does have a niche over pex not being weak to eq and i think thats a good niche.

Psynergy: Same deal as DragonWhale in that I don't see this enough to lean one way or the other, though I'd say the utility it provides for semi-stall is still unique enough to stay B+. Honestly don't care too much where this ends up.

Solerme: disagree. been using this a lot lately and I think it's better than people think. yeah it takes that "precious" mega slot but it's defensive / gluemon capabilities are so good, plus it actually does damage rather than sitting there doing passive damage like most Blaziken / Mence / Meta checks. Calm Mind and/or Iron Defense are cool too.

Mega Altaria: C -> UR
cant say: idk, I think it should stay ranked.

chemcoop: UR

DragonWhale: UR

greilmercenary9: UR, I can give more in-depth thoughts on these if someone wants them, but I think I've already gone over several of these over the last 2 seasons, and frankly I don’t feel strongly either way about any of these.

NOVED: i don't have much to say about any of these 3. i've seen some pyukus in games and theyve all sucked. dont know about the other 2, i never see them and never think highly of them in teambuilding or when i see weird low ladder teams use them. make them all unranked.

Psynergy: Sure, can't remember the last time I've seen this or even considered it for a team. Its stats are too balanced to be worth it and Nihilego can also check both Charizard variants nowadays, albeit not as safely.

Solerme: Yeah, honestly this is bad.

Pyukumuku: C -> UR
cant say: sure. haven't seen one of those outside low ladder in ages.

chemcoop: UR

DragonWhale: UR

greilmercenary9: UR

NOVED: UR

Psynergy: I guess, this didn't hold up well throughout the gen and don't think it's very good outside of its Baton Pass meme.

Solerme: Gimmicky, but can work out. Keep it C

Mega Sceptile: C -> UR
cant say: nah this stays ranked imo

chemcoop: UR

DragonWhale: UR

greilmercenary9: UR

NOVED: UR

Psynergy: Wouldn't be against Mega Sceptile staying ranked but this was primarily ranked during the gradual stream of Mega releases so it's kind of a relic at this point. This thing can be justified but I don't think it's good.

Solerme: I'm not sure about this. But we can still bring it up later if someone shows something about it. For now imho goes to UR

Gastrodon: C -> UR
cant say: sure

chemcoop: C

DragonWhale: UR

greilmercenary9: C, Not great by any means but Water/Ground is generally fantastic typing, and while I think I'd prefer Quagsire in most circumstances it does have Fissure to differentiate itself against stuff that is immune to Toxic.

NOVED: this mon is bulky enough and has a nice typing that i think c is fine. also has fissure which is super useful as well. can be annoying for fini to deal with sometimes and makes them think twice about clicking z move.

Psynergy: I think this is better than a number of things in C rank right now, the bulky Water/Ground niche is cool and I think it's worth keeping but I won't be upset if this is unranked.

Solerme: This thing is good, we should keep it listed. It gets recovery, has a nice defensive and offensive type, great ability. I'd keep it

Talonflame: C -> UR
cant say: no.

chemcoop: UR

DragonWhale: UR

greilmercenary9: UR

NOVED: this is interesting, i think the z move sets are probably just not worth using on any team. this definitely does not feel like it struts a really useful niche so im gonna have to agree on this. feels weird to say tho, rip talonflame

Psynergy: I still respect this thing after having used it a couple times this gen, the Skystrike niche is still strong if played right so I think it's worth C rank. Likewise I won't be upset if we drop this.

Solerme: Still nice to have it around. It isn't that bad to justify an unrankement

Incineroar: UR -> C
cant say: sure

chemcoop: C

DragonWhale: C. Discount lando for most cases but still has a niche being able to come in on lele.

greilmercenary9: Has good bulk, Intimidate, and U-Turn/Knock Off to be a decent utility mon, and Dark typing plus U-Turn mean it's probably a better fit on some teams than something like defensive Arcanine that has a lot of similar characteristics (not that I’d consider either of them good in the meta). But it's on the outside edge.

NOVED: yeah i think the typing and intimidate can be pretty interesting. dark typing and neutrality to fairy is very interesting for lele especially on a somewhat bulky mon. on paper i feel like this mon can kinda be useful in some specific scenarios. seems useful enough to be put on the ranks imo.

Psynergy: I guess, it's apparently got some usage but I don't think it's super notable. I'll abstain though I'd lean more towards C than UR.

Solerme: Not a fan of it. It loses a lot of popular match ups, and easily become a setup bait for every S ranked mon. Stay UR

Empoleon: UR -> C
cant say: I think this is actually better, can we raise it to B- ? Idk if it was just a meta trend but it's a good pick atm

chemcoop: C

DragonWhale: UR. rocks yawn roar is a swampert thing but with the plus of resisting mence attacks but with downside of three major additional weaknesses (including losing electric immunity). Not sure if worth much more than the currently UR swampert.

greilmercenary9: A reasonable SR + Yawn lead for certain teams; it isn't in the same zip code as stuff like Hippo for overall utility, but the different set of resistances and strong SpDef can help with quite a few lead matchups (for example, shutting down most Greninja).

NOVED: i actually think this should be B-. this has seen play on a handful of top teams, with a handful of different sets as well. very unique typing thats very interesting. solid answer to stuff like nihilego, hippo and anything that cant hit steels well which is a lot of things. ive seen things ranging from sub+water z to stealth rock leads with yawn similar to the big berry hippos. the sr yawn sets have been mentioned the most so far but i feel like the z move sets are where its real viability shines. it feels very far from useless and much better than C.

Psynergy: I know cant say loves this thing but I don't think it's worth much more than C. The semi-recent Empoleon trend is enough for me to be okay with C here at least.

Solerme: It's a decent lead. Rocks, Yawn and nice typing makes it a good call for the start. C, yes.

Blissey: UR -> C
cant say: eh idk. can't remember the last time I saw one

chemcoop: UR

DragonWhale: UR. Shed shell is way too matchup reliant compared to the general superiority of chansey.

greilmercenary9: Gives up a ton of bulk compared to Chansey for unimpressive special attacking options and/or Shed Shell. But most stall teams already pack countermeasures for stuff like Gengar, and they tend to be more effective than diluting the effectiveness of a stall team's special sponge. Special attacking gimmicks are possible but not especially relevant.

NOVED: i would really never use this over chansey. i dont think stall needs to try this hard to beat mega gengar or whatever you're trying to beat that chansey cant. just use chansey and let teammates deal with other things. stay unraked.

Psynergy: This is probably worth at least ranking in C though I'm not sure how valuable the Shed Shell niche is nowadays. There's enough ways for stall teams to fight opposing Gengar I think.

Solerme: UR, This thing is unseen.

Scolipede: UR -> B-/B
cant say: yeah maybe B- ? it's not that good and SCREAMS baton pass unlike slapping a Blaziken on similar teams.

chemcoop: C

DragonWhale: B-. Powerful baton passer but very obvious at team preview. Blaziken can do the same but is not obvious, and can force foes to switch out with its superior offensive presence.

greilmercenary9: B-, An extremely dangerous dedicated setup specialist that can easily snowball with Speed Boost, Double Team, Sub and Swords Dance baton passes. It’s predictable, and Taunt and Haze ruin it, but you need to get in fast enough to actually do that, especially when it's going to outspeed you if you had to switch in on it. Not impossible if it was served into a decent spot by a dedicated setup lead. Not horrible to keep in check if you came prepared but if you let it get a free turn or two and aren't packing the obvious blanket Baton Pass counters you're probably toast.

NOVED: speed passing IDs can be scary but its very gimmicky. a bump all the way to B- even is very crazy. this thing is C at least and even that im not sure of. gonna abstain on this i guess but disagreeing with B for sure. not super opposed to C tho.

Psynergy: If we're going to keep Clefable ranked we should at least rank its popular BP friend. B- is probably the best I'll give it but it's not bad at the dedicated Baton Passer role, it does that part better than Blaziken at least.

Solerme: B-, Agree with Cant Say.

Snorlax: B -> B+
cant say: yeah fuck this thing. might even be A-. I always lose to it

chemcoop: B+

DragonWhale: B+. This thing 1v1s so many special attackers and can quickly become unstoppable. Is featured in a few top rated teams as well. Is susceptible to toxic but otherwise with the decline of fighting attacks in the format it's looking more and more difficult to prepare against.

greilmercenary9: B+, Impressive bulk and pseudo-reliable recovery make this brutal to KO for some teams. Phazing and Curse sets are both very solid with the right teammates, but the lack of moveslots for coverage, low initial power, and extreme vulnerability to Toxic do mean that there are several options to circumvent a sweep. But it's good; one of the easiest moves IMO.

NOVED: i nom'd this in the thread so yeah i agree, you can see my thoughts in my post.

Psynergy: Had to double check its usage because this seemed too sudden but it's a lot higher than I thought recently. I'd probably rather keep it in B but I'll just abstain this one, don't see it enough to judge.

Solerme: In certain situations you can't do nothing vs it. If you see it in the preview, you need to bring a check, otherwise this thing will just sit and boost + recycle. A- .

Mega Blaziken: S -> A+
cant say: disagree. I know it's getting less usage and higher ranked teams aren't using it as much, but I don't think it's less viable.

chemcoop: A+

DragonWhale: A+. Ok so a drop from S. Blaziken is no longer a gamechanger the level of Mimikyu and Mega Salamence is, at least not as much as it was earlier on in the season. Fairy types have constantly been increasing in numbers, and Mega Blaziken's sweeping potential in the format has gone down just as well. It's way closer in viability to other A+ pokemon such as mega gengar, zards, greninja, and koko.

greilmercenary9: A+, I'm on the fence about this one, but the meta is growing increasingly unkind to it as Mimkyu EV to survive Flare Blitz, Zard-Y's Air Slash usage is rising, and 5 of the 8 other top 10 mons reliably 1v1 it in most circumstances. STABs plus SD/BP/tech coverage is still extremely dangerous and must be fully respected, but at what point do meta trends hit this hard enough to drop it even despite how good it is?

NOVED: this is tough, i def feel its not much stronger than things like metagross, and certainly not close to mence. but its a very strong mon. with fini and mence being so popular in the current meta i think it's probably enough to put this down a notch.

Psynergy: I still think this is an S worthy mon but current state of the meta says no. It is still very easy to end up painfully weak to Mega Blaziken if you don't run Mega Salamence and while it has many great checks, Mega Blaziken can still bulldoze over many of them. Its general usage is sitting way too low for me to defend it being S at the moment though, but I think it could easily move back to S with changes in meta trends.

Solerme: Speed boost + SD. If you also consider its two offensive stats, well... Stay S.

Kartana: A- -> A
cant say: yep. really good atm

chemcoop: A

DragonWhale: A. The recent surge of scarf sets have made this pokemon a threat worthy of the A rank viability. This thing requires so little chip damage compared to other sweepers it's ridiculous sometimes. With the ability making it even harder to sack a pokemon to it, it oftentimes makes it so they can get a beast boost no matter how the opponent tries to prevent it from happening.

greilmercenary9: Kart is really good, but it might be time to pump the brakes just slightly. Low BP moves and mediocre offensive typing make it hard to bust through defensive cores without SD + sash/Z, but it dies to a light wind on the special side and more things are running Fighting coverage to tech for P2 & Snorlax, which means more stuff hampers setup than one might expect. Scarf is great anti-offense but really struggles with power without a kill for the Beast Boost, though if it gets said boost it can easily sweep, and I'd be remiss to not mention cant say's favored Helmet Kart as an interesting option although I don't think that's grounds for a move. There are fair arguments to consider a move, to be sure: Kart handles Mimikyu effectively as long as it isn't boosted and still behind its Disguise, and it can boost on or whittle down stuff like defensive Lando, but between its special side frailty, difficulty with several of the most dangerous megas/setup sweepers, increasingly problematic coverage being run on stuff like Meta (with Hammer Arm becoming more and more common on high ladder teams) and difficulty breaking stuff like Celesteela or Zapdos without SD + Z, I think A- is still preferred. It's close though.

NOVED: i agree with this. kartana is a really solid mon and scarf is a really good set vs things like greninja, lele, koko, gyarados, mimikyu, etc. its made a significant presence in many offensive teams and proved it usefulness. it feels like a solid A.

Psynergy: Eh I'm a big fan of Kartana but I'm not sold on moving this up based on Mega Blaziken being less dominant. I don't think the meta has changed at all for this to go up right now though I wouldn't complain about this rising. A-

Solerme: Yes. One of the best Beast Boost users around. Has also a decent defensive typing.

Cresselia: A- -> B+
cant say: disagree. still a really splashable bulky mon

chemcoop: B+

DragonWhale: B+. Haven't seen this thing perform in ages. Might as well use P2 defensively.

greilmercenary9: B+, Cresselia is still a mon that can do a lot of work on the right teams. But unless the Fighting resistance is critical to its team or it's supporting with Lunar Dance, P2 tends to do most of what this does but better. Lunar Dance itself is great in combination with speed control support (usually TR), but this also has its issues (being quite predictable, for one, and weak to Taunt users without Mental Herb). Cress also can run CM sets, which are rare but can easily walk over unprepared teams, but with Mimikyu rampant and more offensive checks like Metagross increasing in usage it’s hard to reliably set up a sweep.

NOVED: yeah most teams dont need this incredible bulk without much offensive presence. this has no business above B+

Psynergy: Hm maybe? It certainly isn't quite as common as you'd expect for an A- mon but I'm not sure it's gotten any worse. I suppose it's mostly used on TR builds and competes with Porygon2 more lately. A little hesitant on this one but I'll say sure, it probably does look more in line with the B+ mons than the A- ones.

Solerme: Agreed with Cant Say. Still a really splashable bulky mon

Skarmory: B+ -> A-
cant say: idk is it really A- ? I don't see these outside stall builds. gonna have to disagree

chemcoop: B+

DragonWhale: A-. This thing just walls several of the top tier pokemon in this format, and the decline of blaziken definitely helps even more. While other physical walls do a decent job walling top physical attackers as well, skarm has the ability to avoid toxic, use taunt on other defensive pokemon, and avoid OHKO moves.

greilmercenary9: B+, This suffers from a combination of the issues that plague Chansey and Cresselia. Like Chansey, it's a huge momentum sieve on any kind of offensive team, which makes the suicide lead set with Flyinium the only reliable option outside of stall. That set is actually quite good and benefits from assets like Sturdy and Taunt, but has extreme competition from Sash Boom Lando, lead Hippo, and other supporters that provide more power or utility. As for stall, Skarm is obviously a lynchpin on it, but it's a sitting target for stall's biggest nemesis (Gengar) and requires precise play to help check other megas that give stall a hard time, most notably Zard-X. It's good at what it does, but it only really reaches its full potential when well supported on stall.

NOVED: i do like skarm a lot, even outside hard stall but i dont feel like good enough to be A-. theres still a lot it struggles with and it welcomes in a lot of scary special attackers. B+ feels just fine to me.

Psynergy: This is another one I'm not really on board with. I don't see Skarmory being A- if Chansey isn't rising as well though I think the dedicated stall mons are fine where they are. Don't think Blaziken dropping would change that at all.

Solerme: I've been using this a lot, if we talk about the offensive set. It's nice to have the combination of Sturdy, Rock Tomb, Whirlwind or Taunt.
The defensive set can wall offensive threats like Salamence, but with the raise of fairies there are too many steels around, and with them every team has a way to beat them. Plus Volt Switch Koko is extremely popular. Stay B+.

Kommo-o: B- -> B+
cant say: yeah sure. it's actually a lot easier to use / get the Z move off than people let on. Yeah there's lots of Fairies but a lot of the top teams I've seen have very minimal support in that regard (unlike the team Jhon sent me with 5 Fairy checks lol).

chemcoop: B+

DragonWhale: B+. Basically along the same lines of PZ and cloyster, both of which are B+, combined with several immunity-based abilities that make it harder to use attacks against, as well as having versatility through its insane coverage and setup moves like dragon dance. It still hits like a wet noodle unboosted though.

greilmercenary9: Kommo-o has been a revelation as the USUM meta has continued to develop, but I think B+ is giving it too much credit. Kommo is much harder to use than other similar setup sweepers like PZ and Cloyster despite having the huge boon of being able to attack while setting up and also being able to run sets on either side of the spectrum. It runs into awkward 50/50 mind games more often than it should, which is annoying for something that requires the level of support that it does despite the great payoff from setup. While I think B+ might be a little high for now, I do think raising it to B makes sense.

NOVED: yeah this is one of the best of the dedicated setup kinda mons like cloyster and pz. it can be tricky to get it off without a fairy coming in but teams have definitely shown that its not impossible to play around this well. teammates as well as coverage moves do a good job of dealing with fairies and once this gets the z move off its an excellent sweeper.

Psynergy: I still think this is too big of a rise, but at the same time I agree with DragonWhale that this is better than Porygon-Z or Cloyster. I've even seen a couple blogs say they ditched Porygon-Z for it because its way of boosting is actually threatening, if only because it forces the Fairy to show up. I would rather not boost this all the way to B+ in case its usage spike is short-lived, but I guess it's technically B+ worthy now and we can drop it later if necessary.

Solerme: This thing is good. I mean, you are boosting yourself with a nuke. Plus it gets good abilities for setting up. It can also run a Rocks + Tomb + Taunt set.
Yet it is probably the mons mimikyu-weak mon around. Imo B.

Mega Gengar: A+ -> S
cant say: disagree. People have been hyping this up lately but I just do not see it at all. Very comfortable in A+ imo. It's not meta-defining by any means, and I wouldn't recommend it to a newer player over Blaziken / Mence (or even Meta / Gyara etc.)

chemcoop: A+

DragonWhale: A+. It's an unfair pokemon and forces opponents to bring their antigar pokemon at team preview but compared to gen 6, there are too many scarfers that are mean to it, dbond nerf makes it harder to go for a 1-for-1, and loss of levitate coming into play surprisingly often it's hard to say it's a pokemon worthy of S.

greilmercenary9: A+, I could write a novel about this thing, but instead I'll just say that while I don’t think this thing gets enough credit, it can struggle with being as uber consistent as the Mimi-Lando-Mence stratosphere.

NOVED: i think shadow tag is super broken and super good. i believe this is the 2nd best mega after mence. the ability to trap pokemon is just so good and opens things up really nicely for you. and with the rise of fini and meta that ive mentioned in other comments already it just makes gengar even better and really pushes it up for me. killing something like fini or p2 is huge for a lot of teams. you're taking out things that would otherwise hard stop some of your mons like z move greninja and creating a big gap in your opps plan. its got plenty of good sets to use and just enough coverage between stabs and focus blast/icy wind to take care of what your team needs. i think its fairly simple for the gengar user to handle what gengar loses to and difficult for the opponent to play around gengar getting in the right spot. the nature of shadow tag is just unfair and simply having this on your team forces your opponent to take big considerations in how to not get severely punished by it, more so than any other mon in the game.

Psynergy: I also think this is just too suddenly getting hyped for S even though I don't think anything has changed for it. I will admit it gets more usage on blog teams than it does in general but it's usually being used as a backup or filler Mega on those teams unless it's stall. On a good day it definitely feels like an S tier mon but on a bad day it feels like A at best, and given all that DragonWhale said I don't think it's consistent enough for S tier.

Solerme: Perfect mon for the A+ tier. Has a lot of sets, and sets like the Casinogar can close games alone, if you're getting lucky enough. Great match up agaisn't stall. Great late game cleaner. But...It doesn't keep up with the S stuff. Not as strong as MMence and Mega Blaziken, since it lacks a way to boost speed and damage, and it doesn't hit as hard as them. Also it doesn't work like glue as well as Mimikyu or Lando do.

Changes:
Tapu Fini moves from
A to A+
Mega Metagross moves from A to A+
Mega Altaria moves from C to UR
Pyukumuku moves from C to UR
Mega Sceptile moves from C to UR
Talonflame moves from C to UR
Incineroar moves from UR to C
Empoleon moves from UR to C
Scolipede moves from UR to B-
Snorlax moves from B to B+
Mega Blaziken moves from S to A+
Kartana moves from A- to A
Cresselia moves from A- to B+
Kommo-o moves from B- to B+
 
Last edited:
Well, my Holy Trinity is there in the ranks once again. Now, getting people's opinions on Dragonite to improve will be the hardest part, especially with that (CENSORED) abominations like no-attacks-Toxic-stall-Landorus that roam on the Showdown ladder, and discredit 90% of the battles I play, regardless of results.
 
Hello everyone, I am quite happy that my reasoning that Incineroar deserved to be in the viability ranking was taken into account.
But here I leave other things that I thought when I got bored in my vacations

Gyarados.png
Gyarados from B + to A-
Normal Gyarados has that surprise factor, similar to that of Charizard, thanks to its movement Z flying can end with threats that its Mega form does not have them all to win such as Amoonggus or Mega-Venusaur. This happens thanks to the fact that most people expect more from Gyarados-Mega than from normal Gyarados.

View attachment 129114
Xurkitree from B- to C / UR
Xurkitree is widely surpassed by other electrical types in several aspects for example:
Tapu Koko apart from having the electric ground in his favor, making it hit quite hard, has better speed and a good secondary type as is the Fairy
For the bulky section is Magnezone and Rotom-W
And you can think, Xurkitree has Hypnosis and Dance rain to increase its speed, but I think it's a waste of Z, Hypnosis fails too much and Dance Rain has to do it in clean turn, where no one attacks you to not end up weakened thanks to your bad defenses and it also takes away from Hidden Power fire that is the only thing more or less decent against Scizor and Ferrothorh.

Buzzwole.png
Buzzwole from B- to UR
Pheromosa is BEST IN EVERYTHING
Better coverage, better attack and special attack, better speed and momentun thanks to U-turn. I'm surprised that Pheromosa is not A- or A

Stakataka.png
Stakataka from B to C / UR
Combinacion of horrible type, low speed and does not contribute too much (to say nothing) to the metagame, there is even in trick room there are better options such as Rhyperior or Mega-Aggron with which they share types.

Mega-Alakazam_(dream_world).png
Alakazam-Mega from B- to B / B +
The use of modest Alakazam from the OU tier made me think about how I would work in BSS and the results are quite good
Very strong hits with the peace of mind that you are faster than almost all the metagame (not counting Scarfmons)

Entei.png
Entei from B to ?
Entei is quite similar to Arcanine and Incineroar in certain things, but these two in how is the current metagame move more away from the metagame than Entei does.
I feel that as a player of Arcanine in BSS this is much better than Entei as a fire dog, because it has priority and better coverage for the metagame, but I do not think it deserves to be on the viability list, even looking at it with fondness. what could be C haha
Now if someone who plays more Entei in this metagame, wants to come and explain why it deserves to be B I would like to hear it.
 

Darkinium

the mighty nuaguunibi
is a Pre-Contributor
Until the above post was made and I got an alert, I forgot to write a post shitting on Entei. Oops! :bloblul:


Entei from B to C/UR: Agree

There are just so many Fire-types that do everything this thing wants but better. Breaking and/or sweeping via Flame Charge? Mega Blaziken, Mega Charizard X and Y, Volcarona. Tank? Rotom-Heat, and even bulky Mega Charizard X and Volcarona. Sacred Fire's burn chance is, in my honest opinion, too small a reward in exchange for not using the aforementioned Pokemon. This thing frankly just isn't good and I would like to see it move to UR.

As for the other nominations just brought up,


Xurkitree from B- to C/UR: Agree with C

Aight, I think some people know Xurk has a special place in my heart, but... Sorry, it's not super good. Z-Hypnosis is extraordinarily easy to revenge kill unless you're using some really weird Choice Scarfer like Breloom; Choice Scarf sets don't really have much going for it outside of power and surprise, and has poor matchup against opposing speed control and boosting Pokemon; Bulkitree has problems with faster Pokemon such as the Zards, Koko, Mega Gengar, etc. I wouldn't be for UR, though, because it still possesses considerable power, and can pull off a sweep in the right circumstances.


Buzzwole from B- to UR: Disagree, but would agree with C

Gotta beef with the reasoning here (although I wouldn't mind a Phero rise, just saying that it doesn't necessarily justify a Buzzwole drop.) Outside of not having much in common bar typing, Buzzwole can switch into and answer many Pokemon far better than Pheromosa (defensively, at least) such as Ferrothorn, Gyarados, Breloom, etc. thanks to far better bulk, and I think that alone merits it a rank. Admittedly, now, I would agree with C because of poor matchup with top threats such as the Tapus, Mimikyu, and Mega Mence, a fundamental problems with most slow Fighting-types, but I brought up that nomination before and it didn't go through, so I just didn't want to bring it up myself.


Stakataka from B to C/UR: Agree with B-/C

Now that the initial USUM hype has died down, this thing doesn't seem to be on the same level as stuff like Mega Swampert or Mega Lopunny. Hard to fit outside of TR because of competition with other Steels such as Mega Meta, and even in it, it synergizes poorly with its best sweeper, Mega Mawile. However, I kinda feel it can perform well in the right context, so I don't really want to unrank it.

As for Gyarados and Mega Alakazam, I didn't really feel strongly about them but I mildly disagree with both; Mega Gyarados feels like the better option most of the time over its non Mega-evolved form, and a decent chunk of its utility comes from staying in base forme to better check Blaziken, and not entirely from Flyinium Z; Mega Alakazam is strong but hard to fit onto teams without deliberately building for Psychic Spam, and even then it's disrupted by other Tapus.

Some of my own nominations that I'm not super certain on or don't feel really strongly, are dropping Mamoswine, Cloyster, Hydreigon, Primarina, Rotom-W, Blacephalon, Alolan Muk, Alolan Marowak, Alolan Ninetales, Quagsire, Rhyperior, Mega Gardevoir, Gigalith, Shuckle, and Wobbuffet, and raising Pheromosa. Like I said, I don't really feel strongly about them, and they're mostly things I feel are kinda iffy in their current placement. I might comment on them later, but I'm open to feedback.
 
Agree:

Mega zam rising to B+
This Pokemon is a huge offensive threat that can take advantage of psychic terrain. This stops priority and gives it a choice specs on stab moves from one of the highest spas in the game and a great speed stat. If you are able to hit Focus Blast you can deal with the dark types you see. Its coverage means it can hit almost anything. It gets thunderbolt for celesteela and gyarados focus blast for dark types psyshock for Chansey it can even boost its stats and not to mention coverage from hp fire and shadow ball. Sub helps and this thing can switch in and steal the opponent's ability. This means it is immune to +2 electrium z from thundo-T can take focus blast and Hp ice. and if it comes in on kart predicting sd or for free or even a double it can.so alot. It can get a beast boost in a great spa that can switch up moves it can even get a beast boost. Not to mention it gets magic guard before mega evolving THIS THING IS CRAZY. I'd like to mention with chip you can win with kokos terrain since it helps with celesteela after chip so much dies. It does have trash defenses tho.

Stakataka to B-
I think it is too good for being put among C. It does not enjoy breloom. lando while it takes alot in a 3v3 format is a great check. Has.competition from mawile. It can set up tr if that's any niche. Seems better than c pokemon.

Entei to C
It has a niche. Its sub stalled me although suicune can do it this is much faster. Av is a good mon at sponging 1 hit. scarf can do ok . And banded is strong. I do feel B- is overrated. It has a purpose on the Vr so not UR but its niche.

Xurkitree to C
Simple scarf lando and many more can revenge kill it. Tapu koko,s terrain yes makes it stronger in power it can not sleep with hypnosis.trash speed tier has defenses.

Disagree:

Buzzwole to UR
This is not a worse pheromosa. Bulk up sets it apart. The set Bulk up Sub IP/EQ and drain punch has seen usage. It is able to do a lot of work vs unprepared teams or can win late game. great for lando etc. Can run roost for better recovery. Roost,ice punch,drain punch,filler. Helps check things.

Gyarados to A-
I wouldn't really care it it was A- but i don,t think it is A rank worthy. B+ is good I see the reason for saying it should be A-. Sub gyara with leftovers is what i s would use when i use gyarados its not bad but there are other things and it has a mega. You could just run the mega and not mega it when you have to.. It did enjoy Z fly but new stuff like koko was added. Its not bad tho.

Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Slack Off
- Iron Defense/Toxic/Psyshock/Calm Mind/Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Thunder Wave


B+ TO A-
This can beat or check almost every single physical attacker in existence. Ive beaten Sub Mega gyara with this before. It can live a +1 kartana Leaf Blade. Mega Mence Unless Toxic Stall loses easily. Beats Mega blaziken and Blaziken. Beats mamo and lando T. Chomp hates it. It cant be crit. It has reliable recovery. What I personally believe glues this pokemon Is iron defense. Setting up physical threats can be set up on. Besides Iron defense it has a ton of other options. Mega metagross is annoyed by it although it is very risky to switch in to a Electric terrain tpunch from a mega meta. Although on the spd side it has a slight challenge it can still beat things like heatran and more. if you want to You can even run: id cm scald rest oblivious. This pokemon can beat a lot of common threats in the meta and I think it is A- material. It can even be a threat with CM. Toxic is also in its move pool.Great mon. Would love to see it rise

Edit: Hard to switch into because of scald burns and is GREAT AGAINST RAIN. and 0 speed ivs is for tr(bro)

eball tbolt can be used for rain more of an ok thing tho. Even just eball (zam)
 
Last edited:
My opinions on the above suggested changs:


Gyarados from B + to A- -> Disagree
I think Gyara is pretty good, I'd only be running this with z-fly though technically you can run scarf moxie. however I think it is fine where it is at B+, I don't consider regular gyara to be out of place in that tier. My only disagreement is A-, I think the mons up there are on a different level to gyara.

Xurkitree from B- to C / UR -> To C
Yea unfortunately it is a bit of a gimmick. I could see some really cool teams, especially around BP or Screens and Xurk, but it doesn't fit well into standard teams. Z-hypnosis can always work vs. slower teams, but it does rely a lot of the time on that 55% roll, like casinogar but nowhere near as fast or good.

Buzzwole from B- to UR -> Disagree
I'd disagree with this, I'm not sure whether it should be C, but Buzzwole has very good defensive bulk that can be utilised. I like the stall set in particular with roost. I think this buff mosquito shares nothing with the cockroach other than the typing.


Stakataka from B to C / UR -> Disagree
This thing is a threat, underestimate it at your peril. The 150 BP gyro ball is not to be messed with, a banded stakataka can 2HKO a defensive lando-t after intimidate, can also run rockium-z or sash. Scariest mon to be honest that has been discussed above. A lot of the mistake people make with stakataka is running bad EVs. Always lonely + 16 Def IVs to guarantee attack beast boost. It is a shame that mega mawile exists, without it, we'd be seeing a lot more of stakataka.


Alakazam-Mega from B- to B/B+ -> B- -> B
I could see B. This is because I think mega zam is genuinely underrated, it has a fantastic speed tier at modest or timid, the former outspeeding koko by two points at max. Lele + Zam is a fantastic pairing that nukes through the entire metagame, but I think zam has other applications. it is a shame it is so easily KOed by scarfers and priority otherwise this mon would be better. It can be 4 attack or CM 3 attacks, I think these are the best sets.


Entei from B to ? -> To the dump
I haven't seen a single entei in the last six months, 96th by usage. I pretty much agree with what was said above. I'm assuming its irrelevant.
 
Hello everyone again, this is a nomination that I forgot to do in my previous post so I write it here.

PGLArt_Lycanroc_Dusk.png
Lycanroc Dusk from UR to C

Set-Suicide lead
Lycanroc-Dusk @ Focus Sash
Ability: Tough Claws
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Accelerock
- Rock Tomb/Drill Run/Fire Fang/Taunt/Sucker Punch
- Endeavor

It is a great suicide lead, has Stealth Rocks and Taunt as utility movements, Accelerock as a priority movement by stab that can hit threats like Charizard Y and Volcarona in a super effective way, a great skill like Tough Claws accompanied by good stats from attack and speed, Endevor to be able to weaken threats like Hippowdon before dying and movements for coverage such as Drill Run, Fire Fang, Sucker Punch, etc.
Then we have a set of Lycanroc sweeper but do not play too much in BSS to be able to take it into account in the nomination, the only format where I could prove it with intensity was in OU where it gave me good results in everything at the time
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 2)

Top