Resource BSS Viability Rankings

cant say

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I still believe the Mega Blastoise - Mimikyu core I alluded to offers Mega Blastoise its niche in BSS the would warrant some sort of C ranking. Going down the list of Mimikyu's answers; it nets a positive matchup vs most steel types that wall Mimikyu (including the aforementioned Ferrothorn), Lando-T and Hippowdon, Porygon2, Cloyster (who sets up on Mimikyu and breaks the Disguise with Icicle Spear), and Mega Gyarados (Mold Breaker bypasses Disguise). I won't say any more on this for now, but I might build a new team around that once college work dies down and post replays of it. Although I do agree that C-Rank could be expanded.

I would also vouch for Reuniclus to C-Rank.
The thing is, we don't add things to this list based on theory / ideas. Mega Blastoise hasn't shown up in a single one of our tournaments, it floats between 110-120th in usage on the cartridge ladder, and has only been used in 7 high-ranking Japanese blog teams - none of which had a Mimikyu and were all in the SM meta (before USUM changes to the meta). Blastoise is completely unproven so it's not worth adding to the ranks.
 
I do agree with the above are saying to an extent, but I do also think that a lot of the list especially the specific placements of mons consists of proposals from the community and reasoning that are opinions, some more substantiated than others and what we as a community feel to be threats. I've looked over a lot of Japanese teams and perhaps it's my lack of ability as a player, but I think a lot of them are quite difficult to use and perhaps what would apply at that level does not apply to the vast majority of people in the community and whilst should be used as a reference, I think does not necessarily apply at all levels of play.

What I think hampers Mega Blastoise is nothing to do with these stats as it does exceed certain mons in C rank (even B-) when it comes to usage though marginally but rather that it does not have a well defined niche that another bulky water type doesn't fill. I can't personally think of a reason why I would use Mega Blastoise ever over some other mon that would perform the same job better.
 
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I think Vivillon deserves a ranking in the VR list, because having a nearly 100% accurate sleep inducing move + being able to boost its speed and special attack at the same time is really good. A set with Hurricane/Quiver Dance/Sleep Powder/Substitute and Leftovers is effective in combination with Rock Tomb/Icy Wind support (from Landorus-Therian or Gengar, respectively) as it allows Vivillon to outspeed and safely set up on the opponent. It has troube with Electric and Misty Terrain (although it can stall turns with Substitute) and with Steel Types that commonly know the move Substitute (such as Celesteela, Aegislash and Heatran). It also hasn't the best match up versus Blaziken. Stealth Rock on your side of the field limits how often Vivillon can use Substitute (to make use of 2 or 3 turns of sleep) and could bring Vivillon in KO range of strong priority attacks.
For now I'd say it'd fit in B- at least, as it can sweep many unprepaired teams after the use of just one Quiver Dance.

Edit:
Vivillon is much like Glalie: both function well with speed control (Glalie likes Thunder Wave support), both have a defensive weakness to Fire and Rock Types and an offensive weakness to Steel Types and both need some luck to safely get behind a Substitute. In that regard they are almost interchangable on a team.
And I badly need Vivillons with different patterns caught in a premier ball for the sake of my collection so if you're in for a trade just you let me know it.
 
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Psynergy

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There hasn't been a ton of discussion here this past season but before any sort of voting takes place I want to highlight a few Pokemon that definitely will be voted on, in addition to any previous nominations made that weren't addressed in the last vote. Any additional thoughts or nominations will definitely be taken into consideration. These are just nominations and none of these are guaranteed to happen except maybe the first one.

Hippowdon from A to A+

This shouldn't be a surprising one, while its rise in usage was tied largely to the omni-present Koko/Mence/Aegislash/Kartana/Greninja squads, Hippowdon has consistently been high in usage even as these teams become less common. It competes with Landorus-T for the title of best Stealth Rock user and commonly runs Ice Fang to avoid becoming setup bait for Salamence and Landorus-T, so this will definitely be voted on.

Mega Kangaskhan from A to A-
This one is a little more debatable, but I just don't think Mega Kangaskhan is that prominent of a threat anymore. It's still a very powerful threat, but it's quite a bit more dependent on boosts to actually clean teams and struggles to account for everything in 4 slots, forcing it to choose between coverage and the ability to boost. As a general wallbreaker it still does a great job and punishes a lot of fat bulky stuff, but it really has a bad time against a lot of top threats and hates that the top Megas include Salamence, Blaziken, and Metagross.

Primarina from A- to B+
Primarina has already moved down once in USUM a few seasons ago, but after last season I think it should be dropped again. Its usage has continued to take a hit and it's sitting fairly low for something we consider an A tier threat, and I think it's easy to see why. Its niche has always been being a more offensive Tapu Fini, and that niche has become more reliant on Trick Room to really shine lately. It still functions fine as a general bulky Water, but then it has to compete with Tapu Fini which mostly outclasses Primarina otherwise. I honestly don't think I even saw this thing in Team Preview this season.

Rotom-H from B+ to A-
This got some talk last time but I think it's fair to move Rotom-H up now. It offers great defensive utility with a powerful STAB combination notably matching up decently against a unique subset of threats including Aegislash and Mega Salamence. Rotom-H doesn't ever really take down teams by itself, but its flexible typing and coverage lets it patch up a lot of holes on a team.

Magnezone from B+ to B

I like Magnezone, it's a great Pokemon with an excellent defensive typing at the cost of a massive Ground-type weakness, but its niche isn't that flexible. I don't think there's really a lot I can say here, but as useful as it is being a blanket Electric-type check that also deals with Fairy-types, this combination isn't something you really need that often on a team. There's a reason you don't see Magnezone very often.

That's all I've got for now, I think Cloyster should be dropped too but it was voted last round so I'm not going to bring it up for debate unless others also believe we should look at dropping it further. Likewise I'm not against voting on Mega Lopunny again this season since its usage has seen a steady rise. Others that have crossed my mind are Mega Blaziken, Cresselia, Nihilego, Pheromosa, and other assorted B- rank things, but I don't want to be voting on things solely for the sake of moving them so I'll keep this list short for now. That doesn't mean they won't be considered if someone else wants to nominate them though!
 
I would agree with with the Hippowdon, Mega Kangaskhan, and Rotom-H moves basically for the reasons you stated. I don't really have an opinion on the other two since I don't use them or face them often (although Primarina sounds fun to try out sometime).
 
I think Snorlax and Nidoking are sleepers atm.
They are underrated indeed, ironically Snorlax became a sleeper hit because he stopped sleeping. And Nidoking makes a dangerous lead against any slow bulky team, while still working as a cleaner afterwards.

But please, feel free to ignore the opinions of this old (CENSORED) that is currently using Whirlpool Empoleon on the ladder to stack damage with Scald, just because SubDDnite and Ditto weren't already gimmicky and memey enough, and whose only merit to note is holding the absolute record of most consecutive turns paralyzed.
 
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cant say

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I think Vivillon deserves a ranking in the VR list, because having a nearly 100% accurate sleep inducing move + being able to boost its speed and special attack at the same time is really good. A set with Hurricane/Quiver Dance/Sleep Powder/Substitute and Leftovers is effective in combination with Rock Tomb/Icy Wind support (from Landorus-Therian or Gengar, respectively) as it allows Vivillon to outspeed and safely set up on the opponent. It has troube with Electric and Misty Terrain (although it can stall turns with Substitute) and with Steel Types that commonly know the move Substitute (such as Celesteela, Aegislash and Heatran). It also hasn't the best match up versus Blaziken. Stealth Rock on your side of the field limits how often Vivillon can use Substitute (to make use of 2 or 3 turns of sleep) and could bring Vivillon in KO range of strong priority attacks.
For now I'd say it'd fit in B- at least, as it can sweep many unprepaired teams after the use of just one Quiver Dance.

Edit:
Vivillon is much like Glalie: both function well with speed control (Glalie likes Thunder Wave support), both have a defensive weakness to Fire and Rock Types and an offensive weakness to Steel Types and both need some luck to safely get behind a Substitute. In that regard they are almost interchangable on a team.
And I badly need Vivillons with different patterns caught in a premier ball for the sake of my collection so if you're in for a trade just you let me know it.
As a biased Vivillon user I agree it should be ranked, but B- is pushing it. Your comparison to Glalie is not accurate at all. All Glalie needs in terms of support is speed control, then it can just spam SubProtect until it gets enough boosts, most notable is the evasion. Glalie can also luck its way out of bad matchups with clutch Moody boosts, nothing hard counters Glalie at all.

Vivillon on the other hand gets auto-stopped by Koko and Fini, meaning you need specific support to get by these, or just bench Vivillon in these games (so pretty much all of them), or have a backup core to use against these teams. This pretty much means you can't use Vivillon without Bulu / Venu / Gengar.

Glalie has also topped the ladder a heap of times, and there's always a bunch in blogs at the end of each season. Vivillon has been comparatively scarce.

It should really only be C at best considering it needs similar, if not more support than Eevee to function.
 

Psynergy

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Turns out I'm posting this update exactly a year after starting this thread, convenient how that works out.

Changes are kinda light on this update though, I think that's a first here. In cases with a closer vote, the actual arguments given were taken into consideration since not everyone was able to elaborate on their votes, though this ultimately did not shift the vote in most cases. There is one slightly preemptive change I'm making though, namely Kommo-o, since a number of us feel the nominated C rank is actually too low for it. Feel free to nominate it down if you disagree, though try to avoid nominating on other stuff that was just voted on this round unless you have a really good argument for it. Otherwise if I've made a mistake or something looks wrong, feel free to let me know!

We also didn't split the C rank this time because we don't think it's large enough to justify splitting a rank for ultimately niche Pokemon. However, there are some of the VR council who are in agreement for splitting it so if there's enough support for it we'll consider reworking C rank in the next vote.

Hippowdon: A -> A+
cant say: agree. this is basically meta defining atm

chemcoop: Agree, Hippo is a meta game defining mon that forces you to run super effective z-moves or give up a moveslot on something like Thundy-T to taunt lead Hippo. A+

DragonWhale: A+

greilmercenary9: Probably the best dedicated supporter in the entire meta with the bulk to check many different types of attackers depending on the specific spread. It can also choose to give up some utility to run Ice Fang, which makes it more of a wall than a supporter but also means that it can 1v1 more than half of the top 15 mons depending on the set. Easily A+ material. Don't leave home without a Hippo check.

NOVED: this is kinda tough for me. i dont think hippo is really that much better than A rank, but it is a incredibly strong start for offense teams. you need a good plan to deal with this on every team or else you just get tossed around. A+ seems fine.

Psynergy: This was my nomination but I don't think there's anything more I can add to this anyway. This is long overdue, Hippowdon is everywhere and it's just such a reliable Stealth Rock setter in a meta with so many powerful cleaners.

Solerme: Solid answer to high ranked mons such as MMence, MBlazi, CharX. Great support for the team. Yeah A+

Theorymon: Yeah

Mega Kangaskhan: A -> A-
cant say: disagree. i don't know if it's because I use kang-weak teams or I run into kang weak teams when I use it, but I think it's still super strong

chemcoop: Stay A. Kinda blows through balance with a combo of PuP/Return/Fire Punch/EQ. Not as strong as it was in ORAS obviously, but still a strong breaker with solid bulk and coverage. Also provides a great support role for other mons with paralysis options in Secret Power and Rock Tomb for speed control.

DragonWhale: A

greilmercenary9: This might be the toughest call this time IMO. However, I agree with SoLerme that there is a tendency to swing the pendulum a bit too far based on how things have most recently changed, and Kangaskhan, while not being what it was in ORAS, is still a huge threat. The biggest problem Kangaskhan has in USUM is that it no longer has the initial power to be really elite at being both anti-offense and anti-defense at the same time: AoA sets really miss the power that this thing had in 6th gen when focusing on coverage and priority over boosting, while PuP sets can still blast through walls efficiently but are very hard hit by 7th gen's less effective Sucker Punch and base 100 speed continuing to look less impressive, especially when going full speed means not investing in Kangaskhan's solid bulk. Each has 4MSS since Kangaskhan has a solid movepool, too. Despite this, it can still operate effectively in both roles; it can be hard to tell which set the opponent is running in Team Preview, and the coverage is wide enough to tech fairly efficiently to suit your team. PuP sets are probably the most defining and the best set IMO, but looking at the A and A- tiers as currently constructed, I still think Kangaskhan is a bigger threat (especially at Team Preview) than anything in A- and is on par with a lot of stuff in A. I do think the two other A megas (Metagross and Mawile) are better in this meta, but Kangaskhan is no slouch.

NOVED: I havent used or seen enough of this in the current gen to really make a solid call, but that probably says something in itself. i do think mega kang has a lot more potential than ppl give it credit for but A- is probably a fine fit.

Psynergy: Also my nom, I realize I may be underrating Mega Kangaskhan but I'm just not a fan of its current ranking. It's a great mon, I've got no issues with that, but I don't feel it holds up as well for an A rank threat.

Solerme: It needs more support and it's obviously not as broken as it was, but it's still strong and worth a spot in the As imo. I think that there is a bias that makes it seem less strong since it was so strong before, but i don't really feel like putting this mon that has a huge (like really huge) movepool, two priorities, good stats and a fantastic ability (well one and a half if we consider scrappie) with other A- mons.

Theorymon: Sure, A-

Primarina: A- -> B+
cant say: agree. not much reason to use this over fini outside perish song and/or torrent z move + jet

chemcoop: Inferior Fini at this point in the metagame. Still sees usage on TR builds, but otherwise Fini is definitely the better special Water/Fairy. B+

DragonWhale: B+

greilmercenary9: Primarina isn't a bad mon, but Tapu Fini is significantly more versatile/splashable, and as a result Prima is becoming more reliant on TR to stand out (as others have mentioned previously). The rise of Torrent Gren has hurt it as well, since Gren's much higher speed means it's much easier to reliably fire off attacks, especially when in Torrent range. Even Azumarill, which has fallen in usage throughout 7th gen (for good reason), can give it nominal competition for a slot since it is somewhat less predictable and tends to do better against some top threats due to more power on its priority (and is even slower for TR, too). Prima can still be very effective with the proper support, but it doesn't have the self-sufficiency of other A- mons or such devastating power when given TR help (like a Mawile) to make it a juggernaut.

NOVED: ik its usage has fallen off but i dont think this thing is necessarily that much worse in the current meta than it was before. i still think the extra power and better ability at dealing with gliscor is still valuable enough to keep it A-. fini is very often better on a team than this but i think prim will come up in metas that might call for it, especially in a tour environment where can get a feel for what your opp may bring and prims niches can shine more often.

Psynergy: I don't need to reiterate why I'm not a huge fan of Primarina I hope. I have not seen this much lately and I think that's for good reason, its niche just isn't super desirable at the moment.

Solerme: Yeah, Fini has taken over it. I'm good with B+

Theorymon: Sure, B+

Rotom-H: B+ -> A-
cant say: agree. seems to be a great meta call atm

chemcoop: Has nice defensive/offensive typing and can force mind games with the item. Scarf can pick up surprise KOs on things like Greninja, while Firium Z sets can deliver an unexpected finishing blow. Pretty good typing when threats like Fini, Koko, Mence, and Aegi are running rampant. A-

DragonWhale: B+

greilmercenary9: Wonderful check to a lot of common meta threats right now, with a great typing that frustrates some common cores, including the omnipresent Mence-Aegi-Koko-Hippo teams. This is easily the best of the Rotoms right now: great coverage, multiple status options, several different viable items. Volt Switch is also great for a glue/pivot mon to keep momentum.

NOVED: rn i think this is by far the better of the rotom bros. the fire typing makes it really good vs aegi, ferro. and its a great typing to deal with stuff like mence & thund t. and then you can use volt switch to gain back momentum after taking advantage of those mons. very solid, def deserves A-.

Psynergy: My nom again, but I've definitely seen a lot of Rotom-H lately. Electric/Fire with Levitate is a really useful niche with Ground-types being so dangerous, and Overheat hurts. Still has some awkward weaknesses offensively and defensively but it's the most common Rotom for good reason I think.

Solerme: Agree with this. Great offensive and defensive typing for this meta.

Theorymon: Sure, A-

Magnezone: B+ -> B
cant say: abstain

chemcoop: Pretty meh mon imo with the number of Lando-T and Hippo in the metagame. Fills a niche role of walling Koko and trapping stuff like Celesteela/Ferrothorn if running Magnet Pull, but its lack of speed and 4x weakness to Ground makes it inferior to Koko and Thundy-T as an electric. B

DragonWhale: B

greilmercenary9: It certainly has a niche as a trapper of annoying Steel types and has solid typing for most of what it wants to do. But as Psynergy and SoLerme noted, beyond role compression there tend to be better options.

NOVED: B+, i think magnezone is really solid. theres a ton of mons that hate dealing with celesteela & ferro and magnet pull mag is a great partner for them. the typing is also fantastic and allows it switch in on a ton of stuff like koko, lele and p2

Psynergy: I still like Magnezone but I haven't seen this much lately. Steel and Electric are both good things to be, but there's so many good Electric-types and Steel-types that Magnezone kinda falls behind. Good role compression but that's its best niche.

Solerme: Agreed, i've not seen many successful magnezone around. Sturdy or magnet pull are fantastic, and the AV set is a good call for the tapus, while it can also trap Celesteela, but there are way better electric types or checks to the ones i've written before to justify a B+ spot.

Theorymon: Sure, B

Kommo-o: UR -> C
cant say: sure. I think it's a little better than that though, maybe B-. It can function on its own unlike the others in C

chemcoop: Saw this thing in the 1700s a lot, and I think it can be pretty scary with the right team comp. Also forces your opponent to bring their fairy, which makes team preview easier. C is fine, but I'd also be good with B-

DragonWhale: C

greilmercenary9: I agree with cant say and Psynergy that C actually seems a bit low for this. While the omnipresence of Mimikyu and the Tapus certainly hurts it tremendously, the Z-move is a huge threat if teams aren't prepared for it, and Fairy switches into it tend to be predictable. It also poses unique problems for certain cores compared to other Dragons: P2 in particular doesn't like Kommo compared to pretty much any other Dragon type threat. I don't think it deserves to be above B- in a meta that is quite hostile to something 4x weak to Fairy that operates at its best when Clangorous Soulblaze isn't blocked, but I do think it belongs closer to that than to some of the other stuff in C.

NOVED: sure, i havent seen this much but it probably deserves c at least. its def not just worthless. a well played kommo can do work in certain matchups.

Psynergy: I'm also of the opinion that this is probably actually B- but it's not super incredible. Do not sleep on that Z-move though, one wrong move could end you against this thing. Being x4 weak to Fairy-types does not make it bad by any means.

Solerme: This needs a rank, i'd honestly put it in C+ if we had a C+ tier. Z Kommo and Z Belly Drum can make it sweep teams if properly supported, while it can also act as a decent supporter/lead with the combination of stealth rock and rock tomb.

Theorymon: Agree, C

Vivillon: UR -> C/B-
cant say: I already posted about this in the thread, C

chemcoop: Definite C mon. Can sweep unprepared teams or inexperienced players but the Sleep Powder/QD strategy gets shut down by the combination of the omnipresent Electric/Misty Terrains and anything that resists Hurricane.

DragonWhale: C

greilmercenary9: Definitely a threat that must be respected since Sleep Powder + QD is very difficult to stop once it gets started. But getting started is tough in a meta with Tapu Koko and Tapu Fini everywhere, and it doesn't even get a good 1v1 matchup against them like more prominent sleep users do to make up for that. Beyond that, its general frailty means that dedicated support is necessary for it to function well, which hurts it, and the payoff arguably isn't really much better than more powerful and dangerous sweepers. To compare it to the mon just above: Kommo has its own issues with Fairy types but gets a better payoff with its boosts if it gets them, isn't crippled as much by terrain (though Misty Terrain can still be annoying), and has viable coverage moves to hit Fairy-types SE even if the actual power without STAB isn't that great.

NOVED: c seems good, qd + sleep is hard as hell to deal with but its kinda slow before qd and really squishy.

Psynergy: No higher than C, but you definitely need to respect the threat of Vivillon at Team Preview. It's basically a worse Breloom but Quiver Dance Hurricane is no joke. It definitely can destroy teams that aren't well prepped for it but Breloom just does the sleep thing better as a whole.

Solerme: B-. Needs support to get rid of Koko and Fini, that can shut its powder+qd strat, but it can still setup Qds on Fini and can put a lot of pressure at team preview. If you don't have answers you lose. This to me is enough to make it jump out of the C tier, even with Koko and Fini being so popular.

Theorymon: Agree, C

Mega Blastoise: UR -> C
cant say: abstain

chemcoop: If it has to be ranked, C is fine. I personally would be fine with it staying UR, because I have almost never seen this used in 1700s+ and is a waste of a Mega slot when you have other waters like Gren or Fini that provide better speed or utility and don't use that Mega space.

DragonWhale: UR

greilmercenary9: I guess C is fine here but I'm kind of ambivalent on this one. I don't have much to say on this since I haven't seen one in months, and while it isn't terrible I don't see why I'd use it over basically any relevant Water-type.

NOVED: Sure, C

Psynergy: I really don't care where this goes, it's not bad on paper but I don't see a reason to use this over another Mega or bulky Water aside from unique coverage. I say leave it unranked but I won't object to putting it in C if others feel it's worth the rank.

Solerme: Huge fan of it, but sadly can't really call for the B tier. This would've needed more bulk (HP) or some kind of setup move to be a good call. It still deserves a rank, but not a higher one.

Theorymon: Agree, C

Reuniclus: UR -> C
cant say: abstain

chemcoop: Leave it UR imo. Not as good as other TR setters like Mimikyu and P2, and struggles in a metagame where Mimikyu exists.

DragonWhale: UR

greilmercenary9: Similar to M-Blastoise. I know SoLerme has used this well but that's one of the few times I've ever seen it; the Mimikyu infested meta is unkind to it, and TR has both better setting and attacking options.

NOVED: Sure, C

Psynergy: Another thing I can see being usable but I'm not sure it's relevant enough to rank. I feel there was a stronger case for Reuniclus in ORAS but being a TR reliant Psychic-type isn't exactly fantastic in this meta. I can be convinced but for now I'll say keep it unranked.

Solerme: I'm biased here, Reuniclus brought me to the semis in the last invitational with its Z Trick Room and Z Future Sight. Sadly there are way too much good psychic types around and better TR setter such as Mimikyu (i still don't get why this gets TR tho.) to make it climb to the B tier.

Theorymon: Agree, C

Mega Alakazam: B- -> C
cant say: disagree. this has a legit niche as a fast Trace user which allows it to check rain and sand, and is great on Psychic spam

chemcoop: Stays B-. Provides a niches support role on certain Baton Pass teams, and also gets ridiculously strong when paired with Tapu Lele.

DragonWhale: B-

greilmercenary9: B-, An extremely fast Trace user has application in this meta as a check to weather and even to (Mega) Blaze, which is interesting. It also has just enough movepool options to cause certain walls problems with Disable, Encore, Taunt etc., and can boast more power and cover up its weakness to priority on Psychic Spam.

NOVED: probably not, i feel like this has enough potential to be b-. can serve as a nice lead for stuff like glalie and eevee teams. and similar things such as that. its also super fast so it has that going for it.

Psynergy: I think Mega Alakazam has a stronger case for being moved up than moved down right now, being that fast with Trace is always worth consideration. I think it's fine where it is right now though, it dies to a light breeze and hard to rely on as your only Mega since its coverage is awkward.

Solerme: Fast and kind of powerfull. It can act as a decent gimmick most of the times, since you never know what it is going to do between its Disable + Encore / Twave strategies, or if it's going to attack you with a 4 offensive slot. Trace can be nice, specially if you consider that it can outspeed a Blaziken with it, but It doesn't skip out the gimmick tier though, since it's frail and outclassed by better psychic types that aren't even Megas.

Theorymon: Agree, C

Sharpedo: B- -> C
cant say: disagree. sash sets are really good imo

chemcoop: B-. Sash D-Bond is :sogood: and like Blaziken (but to a lesser extent) forces the 'mega or not' mind games in team preview.

DragonWhale: C

greilmercenary9: B-, Similar to M-Zam in being a fast mon that can't usually take a hit. Sash DB is a pain to play against though.

NOVED: yeah its just way to weak.

Psynergy: Also fine where it is, this isn't a super excellent mon but Sash Destiny Bond is always something you should respect. The mindgames between Sash and Mega can also make it annoying to play around if you predict wrong.

Solerme: I agree with Psyg with the fact that the mindgames between Sash and Mega can make it annoying to play around if you predict wrong. As written above on mZam, good gimmick.

Theorymon: Agree, C

Mega Sharpedo: B- -> C
cant say: yeah idk. abstain

chemcoop: Still think this should be B-. Strong Jaw + Ice Fang/Psychic Fangs/Crunch OHKOs a ton of meta relevant threats after SR.

DragonWhale: C

greilmercenary9: B-, Similar to base form but adds some more power at the cost of the Sash, so it has a better chance to do some work against moderately bulky stuff. DB can still be a problem too. Same rank as Zam seems fair.

NOVED: nah b- is good. b- is not even that great a spot and this is a pretty damn solid cleaner sometimes. i wouldnt sleep on this too hard.

Psynergy: Same deal as above, being similar Mega Gyarados is very much not a good thing for it but Strong Jaw can really mess with bulky squads since it actually has the bulk to take a weaker hit. The threat of Destiny Bond also still exists here so I definitely wouldn't sleep on the shark.

Solerme: I've been using it a little. It has a decent movepool, great abilities and nice offensive stats. I'm debating here since B- sounds too much, but C doens't sound fair to me.
Going to keep it low and vote for the C tier for now.

Theorymon: Agree, C

Milotic: B- -> C
cant say: disagree. didn't realise it was even this low, seems like more of a B rank imo. decent bulky water

chemcoop: Outclassed by defensive Fini and Suicune as a bulky Water type, although Mirror Coat and Adrenaline Orb/Competitive memes are kinda neat. C.

DragonWhale: C

greilmercenary9: I agree with SoLerme here; while Flame Orb is interesting, it's hardly a guarantee to even get it since Misty Terrain is everywhere, and beyond the Flame Orb niche to counter certain physical attackers it's just kind of mediocre. Having your wall dropping health each turn in a meta with plenty of residual damage is a bit dubious as well. It's definitely one of the best things that would be in C if it goes there, but I do think it would be fair to drop it.

NOVED: C

Psynergy: As someone who has used Milotic, I am definitely a fan of a bulky Water with reliable recovery. The pseudo immunity to Toxic with Flame Orb Marvel Scale is also really cool and probably the main reason I don't think this is just a meme pick.

Solerme: I agree with what it's been said. The combination of Flame Orb and Icy wind + scald burns can make it a good call for setup sweepers like MMence. It also has a recovery, but again even here it's hard to justify a stop in a such offensive metagame as this one. I'd vote C+, but B- is too high.

Theorymon: Agree, C

Talonflame: B- -> C
cant say: abstain

chemcoop: C. Rip birb. Priority Z-BB is neat, but good luck keeping that Gale Wings intact when Rocks and Sand are everywhere.

DragonWhale: UR

greilmercenary9: Priority Skystrike is nice I guess, but the growing prominence of residual damage, especially SR on Hippo teams, doesn't do this any favors. Without priority Roost or (usually) Brave Bird to use more consistently like in ORAS though this thing really suffers from its subpar non-speed stats, and even then it doesn't outrun stuff like Koko/M-Gar without its ability.

NOVED: C

Psynergy: Honestly yeah, I like Talonflame sometimes but this is just not relevant enough to stay in B- at this point. Priority Skystrike is definitely scary and I'd say makes it worth keeping ranked for now but C rank feels more appropriate.

Solerme: Two words: Rocks / Psychic terrain. With the raise of both i don't really think that this is a good pick.

Theorymon: Agree, C

Buzzwole: B- -> C
cant say: disagree. I still see this popping up on competent teams. being super mence / blaziken / mimikyu weak sucks but apart from those it checks physical attackers really well like non-fly z gyara / lando

chemcoop: B-. Walls Lando-T outside of z-Fly and scares away common fat mons like P2. AV can also live some special hits and pick up a surprise KO on something that expected to KO it.

DragonWhale: B-

greilmercenary9: This can run several different types of sets, although I really think AV and Bulky Roost are the main ones that really make sense compared to Heracross in particular. AV plays the role significantly better than Heracross thanks to significantly better physical bulk, a higher base attack stat, and better coverage, while Bulky Roost can leverage its high defense to check physical attackers that lack SE coverage. Buzzwole has good enough coverage to tech for your team, and it can typically take a hit and then retaliate with force--especially effective against many of the frailer mons around. Depending on moveset and spread you can surprise some stuff that really won't expect you to be able to live an attack and deal heavy damage back. Buzzwole definitely has its drawbacks: it gets trounced by three S-rank mons, is fairly slow, and without Leftovers/general healing other than Leech Life, it does get worn down pretty easily. But on balance I think it does enough good to stay in B- rather than drop.

NOVED: C

Psynergy: I still don't feel strongly about this thing but I don't see what other people see in it. This is a worse Heracross unless it's a bulky Roost set and I'm already not a huge Heracross fan. Think I'll abstain on this one.

Solerme: Good check to popular stuff like sand, Landorus (barring the Z Fly set) and p2. It gets Roost and can deal a lot of damage with its ability boosts. Not a gimmick, B-.

Theorymon: Agree, C

Umbreon: B- -> C
cant say: disagree. good bulky mon and can cheese with Z celebrate

chemcoop: B-. Stupidly bulky and access to Wish/Yawn provides nice team support.

DragonWhale: C

greilmercenary9: B-, Strong supporter with Yawn that also can mess with physical attackers with Foul Play and even BP Z-Celebrate boosts for a different and more offensive approach.

NOVED: C

Psynergy: Nah Umbreon is alright, it's not a common pick but being a hippo with Foul Play is actually a cool niche for offensive teams, especially with Salamence. I've seen this a decent amount and it can be annoying to deal with if you lack Bug-, Fairy-, or Fighting-type STAB.

Solerme: C, Worth a rank, but way too predictable. I used its Z Celebration set a lot, with decent success too, but it remains a gimmick.

Theorymon: Agree, C

Nidoking: B- -> C
cant say: completely disagree. this thing is legit lol

chemcoop: B-. Phenomenal coverage makes this guy a pretty decent anti-lead. It also switches into Koko freely and gets to fire off a huge hit, which can be really clutch. Sash/Scarf/Life Orb sets all have good merit.

DragonWhale: B-

greilmercenary9: B-, Basically having LO power thanks to Sheer Force with insane coverage while still being able to use a different item is nice, and the coverage is good enough that not much wants to take many hits from this, so slower teams can suffer against it (it also doesn't lose its Sash to sand, which can help against stuff like Hippo). Sucker Punch along with Sash can also buy some extra hits.

NOVED: nah i like this as a sash lead. the coverage combined with sheer force power can be hard to deal with for some teams. it almost has something to hit every mon in the meta. and you pretty much need something faster than it to deal with it easily. (which isnt that hard, but its down @ b- for a reason) and if you dont have two mons faster than it then it can get a lot of dmg off if it was able to ohko the fast mon that brought it to sash.

Psynergy: I don't feel strongly on this one but Nidoking is alright, I'm not convinced it needs to drop to C but I'm certainly not against it. Offensive Poison-type is definitely a useful niche but if the Sticky Web squads are falling out of favor I can see this dropping.

Solerme: Nice ability, huge movepool, weak but handy priority. If it gets support or if it's faster than the one who opposes it, it can be devastating. Not a gimmick

Theorymon: Agree, C

Clefable: B- -> C
cant say: disagree. I think it's still okay as a bulky unaware option and can use magic guard well too

chemcoop: C. Don't really like this thing outside of Baton Pass teams, and even then it's an inferior BP recipient compared to Espeon. Minimize sets get shut down by Celesteela and lack of Magic Bounce means that it can just get phazed out by Hippo and other WW/Roar users.

DragonWhale: B-

greilmercenary9: B-, I'm not a fan of Clef but it's probably the best Unaware wall with a solid Fairy typing, and Magic Guard can also be very useful in a meta with increasing residual damage or just as a way to buy an extra turn if your opponent thinks you're running Unaware and tries to Toxic. Also a decent enough BP receiver option for certain teams.

NOVED: yea i agree with this. minimize clef is not what it used to be without daddy thund. i think the existence & popularity of curse mimikyu also hurt the strat a ton as well. to a point where i wouldnt even consider it very viable of a strategy anymore. & i dont really think non minimize clefs are all that strong. the only team id maybe consider this on is eeveepass as a boost receiver.

Psynergy: This thing sucks, I don't like it. It's certainly a threat on the right squads but I don't think this is worth using outside of those obnoxious BP teams. I guess B- fits it but I just don't think it's that good.

Solerme: The Unaware + Kee Berry set can setup vs offensive teams, whereas the Magic Guard one can deal with stall. In the right situation it can close games. It also puts a decent amount of pressure at the team preview. Imo not a gimmick

Theorymon: Agree, C


Changes:
Hippowdon moves from A to A+
Primarina moves from A- to B+
Rotom-H moves from B+ to A-
Magnezone moves from B+ to B
Kommo-o moves from UR to B-
Vivillon moves from UR to C
Milotic moves from B- to C

Talonflame moves from B- to C
 
If I was to suggest two raises, they would be as follows:

Tapu Fini - A -> A+
MegaGross - A -> A+

Fini:

Tapu Fini may be my favourite Tapu currently. I have found it slightly strange that it is not valued currently as much as Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko despite having more usage. The best bulky water in the tier by a way, great ability in misty terrain which not only negates toxic which cripples a lot of bulky mons like P2 but also makes moonblast hit like a truck, harder than a tapu koko t-bolt. Most of S and A+ in my mind have trouble depending on the fini set. The most problematic set in my opinion is the bulky berry set. Bulky berry essentially means Fini is likely to live at least 3 turns against the majority of the tier.

There are very few things that can outright kill a fini. To give one such example, max spa specs tapu koko's thunderbolt has a 0% to kill a fini with 252HP/8SpD EV spread, meanwhile waterium fini always KO's Koko. Just one example of how fat fini is whilst being able to deal out respectable damage. The icy wind, waterium-z set is notable in that it is a mon that simultaneously beats the two most common mons in the format (Mimikyu and Landorus-T) whilst also beating Mega salamence and Mega Blaziken. The funniest thing about Fini is you would think Supereffective moves would shut down Fini. Mega Blaziken loses to Fini even if it has Thunder Punch, Porygon2 can lose to taunt fini even if it has Discharge, it being a 5 Hit KO on bulky berry max HP Fini which can natures madness (or even tapunium-z), brine etc. Fini is literally just that mon. Slots into the vast majority of teams as a general switch in to a lot of the bigger threats in the tier especially as a switch into ice type moves and a pseudo switch-in to earthquake due to its natural bulk and beating the vast majority of mons that run it such as hippo and most lando-t's. Even the mons that beat fini, they take a lot of chip doing so. Specs is also an option, Fini just has so much going for it and puts in work in the vast majority of games and matchups.

Furthermore, Fini I think is underexplored a bit as a defensive mon, mostly used as a defensive check, but there is a lot of potential on the spdef side also, which is kind of taken for granted given the monster 130 spdef. AV Fini for example can take on even Naganadel as +2 sludge wave does not KO AV fini if EV'd correctly whilst ice beam is a 2HKO though perhaps CM + Kebia berry might be better.

MegaGross:

MegaGross in my opinion looks out of place in terms of megas when compared to mega mawile and mega kangaskhan which are also within the A tier. My personal opinion is that it is currently the 4th best mega in BSS, after Mega Salamence, Mega Blaziken and Mega Charizard Y and therefore deserves a place next to similarly strong Megas such as Zard Y and Gyarados (I can respect Zard X being there, but only due to the surprise/mindgame factors). I think a lot of people have always recognised that mega metagross is a particularly strong mon, fast, bulky, great coverage, hits hard without needing boosts. Clear body as regular metagross is also a surprisingly useful ability as intimidators are generally amongst the best switchins, even if generally the two major intimidators Lando-T and Salamence still take tons from ice punch.

MegaGross though I think is one of those mons that works great at the top level as it is one of the most customisable megas out there and can be used to adapt to a multitude of situations dependent on what your team needs. In terms of EV specs, you can EV MegaGross to live any hit from mega Blaziken or char-y's fire blast in sun or specs tapu lele's shadow ball to just give a few examples. In general the AoA set has very few switch-ins to begin with once you manage to get it in, which is relatively easy due to its natural bulk and the great defensive steel typing which means it's one of the few mons that can take hits from tapu lele.

What has changed recently that I think has made it stronger is that people have been starting to experiment with metagross's other capabilities, in particular grass knot and toxic, which limit the switch-ins to metagross even further, interesting sets have been seen especially on top Japanese teams as well as being used in tournament in the most recent bslt, showing off sets asides from iron head, eq, ice punch and thunder punch. Metagross's major pitfall is its lack of good set-up and the four moveslot syndrome. If it was not for these things, I honestly think it might be the best mega in the game.
 
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chemcoop

When in doubt, Rock Slide out!
is a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
If I was to suggest two raises, they would be as follows:

Tapu Fini - A -> A+
MegaGross - A -> A+

Fini:

Tapu Fini may be my favourite Tapu currently. I have found it slightly strange that it is not valued currently as much as Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko despite having more usage. The best bulky water in the tier by a way, great ability in misty terrain which not only negates toxic which cripples a lot of bulky mons like P2 but also makes moonblast hit like a truck, harder than a tapu koko t-bolt. Most of S and A+ in my mind have trouble depending on the fini set. The most problematic set in my opinion is the bulky berry set. Bulky berry essentially means Fini is likely to live at least 3 turns against the majority of the tier.

There are very few things that can outright kill a fini. To give one such example, max spa specs tapu koko's thunderbolt has a 0% to kill a fini with 252HP/8SpD EV spread, meanwhile waterium fini always KO's Koko. Just one example of how fat fini is whilst being able to deal out respectable damage. The icy wind, waterium-z set is notable in that it is a mon that simultaneously beats the two most common mons in the format (Mimikyu and Landorus-T) whilst also beating Mega salamence and Mega Blaziken. The funniest thing about Fini is you would think Supereffective moves would shut down Fini. Mega Blaziken loses to Fini even if it has Thunder Punch, Porygon2 can lose to taunt fini even if it has Discharge, it being a 5 Hit KO on bulky berry max HP Fini which can natures madness (or even tapunium-z), brine etc. Fini is literally just that mon. Slots into the vast majority of teams as a general switch in to a lot of the bigger threats in the tier especially as a switch into ice type moves and a pseudo switch-in to earthquake due to its natural bulk and beating the vast majority of mons that run it such as hippo and most lando-t's. Even the mons that beat fini, they take a lot of chip doing so. Specs is also an option, Fini just has so much going for it and puts in work in the vast majority of games and matchups.

Furthermore, Fini I think is underexplored a bit as a defensive mon, mostly used as a defensive check, but there is a lot of potential on the spdef side also, which is kind of taken for granted given the monster 130 spdef. AV Fini for example can take on even Naganadel as +2 sludge wave does not KO AV fini if EV'd correctly whilst ice beam is a 2HKO though perhaps CM + Kebia berry might be better.

MegaGross:

MegaGross in my opinion looks out of place in terms of megas when compared to mega mawile and mega kangaskhan which are also within the A tier. My personal opinion is that it is currently the 4th best mega in BSS, after Mega Salamence, Mega Blaziken and Mega Charizard Y and therefore deserves a place next to similarly strong Megas such as Zard Y and Gyarados (I can respect Zard X being there, but only due to the surprise/mindgame factors). I think a lot of people have always recognised that mega metagross is a particularly strong mon, fast, bulky, great coverage, hits hard without needing boosts. Clear body as regular metagross is also a surprisingly useful ability as intimidators are generally amongst the best switchins, even if generally the two major intimidators Lando-T and Salamence still take tons from ice punch.

MegaGross though I think is one of those mons that works great at the top level as it is one of the most customisable megas out there and can be used to adapt to a multitude of situations dependent on what your team needs. In terms of EV specs, you can EV MegaGross to live any hit from mega Blaziken or char-y's fire blast in sun or specs tapu lele's shadow ball to just give a few examples. In general the AoA set has very few switch-ins to begin with once you manage to get it in, which is relatively easy due to its natural bulk and the great defensive steel typing which means it's one of the few mons that can take hits from tapu lele.

What has changed recently that I think has made it stronger is that people have been starting to experiment with metagross's other capabilities, in particular grass knot and toxic, which limit the switch-ins to metagross even further, interesting sets have been seen especially on top Japanese teams as well as being used in tournament in the most recent bslt, showing off sets asides from iron head, eq, ice punch and thunder punch. Metagross's major pitfall is its lack of good set-up and the four moveslot syndrome. If it was not for these things, I honestly think it might be the best mega in the game.
Hey Ika, thanks for the post. I definitely agree that these are both good noms and nouthuca usage from S9 seems to agree with you as well. Metagross was the most used mega on top rated teams and Fini was the most used Tapu as well I believe. That being said, there are a few things in your post that I wanted to address.

One, while Misty Terrain is undoubtedly useful for status blocking, it is worth mentioning that it doesn't boost Fairy type moves; it only halves damage from Dragon type attacks that target a grounded Pokémon.

Secondly, while you can EV MegaGross to live Mega Blaze FB, I wouldn't recommend it simply because it takes away from Mega Meta's overall effectiveness significantly, and it's easy enough to just pair Mega Meta with something that doesn't mind switching into FB. There is also no way to EV Mega Meta to take a fire move from Zard Y in sun lol. Don't try staying in with Meta on Zard Y unless you run Rock Tomb.
 
Hey Ika, thanks for the post. I definitely agree that these are both good noms and nouthuca usage from S9 seems to agree with you as well. Metagross was the most used mega on top rated teams and Fini was the most used Tapu as well I believe. That being said, there are a few things in your post that I wanted to address.

One, while Misty Terrain is undoubtedly useful for status blocking, it is worth mentioning that it doesn't boost Fairy type moves; it only halves damage from Dragon type attacks that target a grounded Pokémon.

Secondly, while you can EV MegaGross to live Mega Blaze FB, I wouldn't recommend it simply because it takes away from Mega Meta's overall effectiveness significantly, and it's easy enough to just pair Mega Meta with something that doesn't mind switching into FB. There is also no way to EV Mega Meta to take a fire move from Zard Y in sun lol. Don't try staying in with Meta on Zard Y unless you run Rock Tomb.
Yes I agree with the above, was writing quickly when tired so made some mistakes in my post. Pretty much all chem says above is correct. I did know that Fini was the most used Tapu last season (and this one so far), but surprised that Metagross is the most used mega, I always assumed it to be second after Mega Salamence.

Also of curiosity, I was looking over MegaGross sets and spreads for a team. I agree with you completely that you probably shouldn't be EVing Metagross to live a blaziken FB, but it is something that you can do.

The general bulky benchmark looks to be something like 124 HP/12 Def, which will allow you to live a ghostium-z from Adamant Mimikyu. Between Iron Head flinching and bullet punch, you are likely to get at least a trade off vs. mimikyu.

Surprising amount of Hammer Arm usage, which according to blogs is for specifically when faced against P2 or Snorlax, the latter rising in usage season on season. In general though you are putting four attacks together depending on what your team needs.
 
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Darkinium

the mighty nuaguunibi
is a Pre-Contributor

Mega Metagross from A to A+: Agree

This thing wasn't A+ already? For real though, it's strong, fast, bulky, has wide coverage, little to no guaranteed answers... Its effect on the meta (:psysly:) and on teambuilding is on par if not larger than others in A+ such as Aegislash and Charizard Y. Nothing much to say, this is just way lower than it should be, in my opinion.

Because there haven't been many other nominations (barring Tapu Fini to A+, on which I don't think I have enough knowledge to comment), I'll throw some of my own suggestions into the mix.


Garchomp from A to A-

After some talk in Discord, I'm a bit less certain of this, but I'm still going to nominate this to get some more discussion and council opinion. Essentially, the meta has gotten faster than Garchomp could manage in ORAS, with both mainstays such as Mega Salamence and Greninja to new faces such as Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko, and Naganadel giving it a hard time. The Choice Scarf set also has its own problems, specifically an extreme lack of power. Walls such as Hippowdon, Celesteela, and Porygon2 are also roadblocks for it, as is Mimikyu.

However, I'm being told that its SR + SD Sash set is actually quite good, and moving Garchomp down could also give off the implication that stuff like Mamoswine and Excadrill are better. Another solution suggested to me by jroxas could be to move all of Garchomp, Mamoswine, and Excadrill down to A-, which is something I can see happening and wouldn't be opposed to, but don't have particularly strong feelings on. It'd be great to have some opinions on that possibility as well.


Nihilego from A- to B+

This one is a bit on the shaky side honestly, but I still think it merits consideration. Admittedly this thing is good as a Scarfer, outspeeding the crucial base 100 speed tier and matching up well against stuff like the Tapus, the Zards, etc. However, it has major struggles with omnipresent Pokemon such as AV Landorus-T, Hippowdon, and Steel-types such as Celesteela and Ferrothorn in any shape or form. In my opinion, the complete inability to touch the aforementioned Ground- and Steel-types alone warrants a drop to B+.


Mega Slowbro from B+ to B

The reasoning for this nomination is quite frank: Toxapex exists. Toxapex's immunity to Toxic is just really, really big. Couple that with access Regenerator without having to lose it in exchange for increased bulk, Toxic Spikes, Haze, the ability to hold Black Sludge, and superior typing allowing it to take on threats such as Mimikyu, Mega Gyarados, and Breloom, and Toxapex is really just looking like a better option. Hell, I wouldn't even mind dropping this down to B-, but baby steps.


Mega Altaria, Gastrodon, Pyukumuku, and Mega Sceptile from C to UR

Mega Altaria just faces really big competition as a bulky Dragon-type from Mega Salamence and Mega Latias, a bulky Fairy-type from Mimikyu and Tapu Fini, and a setup sweeper by Dragonite, Garchomp, and, again, Mega Salamence and Mimikyu. The only reason you would ever use this is if you really hate both the Zards and somehow can't afford to use answers to both that are actually good.

Gastrodon just has extremely tight competition with other bulky Water- and Ground-types such as Tapu Fini, Toxapex, Landorus-T, and Hippowdon, all of which have better bulk, recovery, Stealth Rock, more power, utility... Last time this thing dropped the exact same sentiment was echoed by the council, and it was basically unanimously in favor of dropping this. I agree, but think we could do Gastro one better, or, lower.

Pyukumuku is just so awfully passive, slow, exploitable, with poor typing and a poor gimmick that's not worth using over Quagsire or Clefable. Literally anything with Taunt or Substitute annihilates it, and it doesn't offer much, if anything, over the other two. No Scald, Minimize, Calm Mind, nothing.

Like Gastrodon, when Mega Sceptile was voted on by the council it was basically torn to shreds and barely agreed to be ranked. Any sort of Steel-type just walls the hell out of this, and it relies on the exploitable Leaf Storm, the weak Dragon Pulse, and awful coverage moves to do any damage. Lightning Rod would be cool if you didn't drop to Koko's Dazzling Gleam or HP Ice, and if you didn't have to lead and Mega Evolve Sceptile to have Lightning Rod ready for a lead Tapu Koko. Why are you using this over Mega Venusaur again?
 
However, it has major struggles with omnipresent Pokemon such as AV Landorus-T, Hippowdon, and Steel-types such as Celesteela and Ferrothorn in any shape or form. In my opinion, the complete inability to touch the aforementioned Ground- and Steel-types alone warrants a drop to B+.
I think Nihilego deserves the A- spot. It's true that Nihilego struggles against the mentioned Pokemon. However, you could put coverage moves on it (Grass Knot, Hidden Power Fire/Ice, Thunderbolt), so you can at least revenge kill some of them.

In addition to the ones you already mentioned, it's also very good against common Pokemon like Thundurus, Naganadel, Volcarona, and Gengar.

I think the usage of it is just so low because it's more of a counter against Pokemon your team is weak against than one that is good in any situation.
 

Darkinium

the mighty nuaguunibi
is a Pre-Contributor
It's true that Nihilego can run coverage for its answers. However, it still needs to rely on prediction to hit them on the switch, and even if they're right in front of it its coverage isn't picking up any OHKOs; Landorus, Hippowdon, Celesteela, and Ferrothorn can all take a hit and OHKO back or disrupt with Stealth Rock or other utility moves. Most of its moves, STAB or not, are also pretty easy to take advantage of.

I do agree that it has a pretty good matchup against certain common Pokemon (Naganadel is ok, but only if it hasn't set up yet, picked up a kill, and Nihilego is decently healthy.) My main reason for dropping it is its underwhelming matchup against common defensive Pokemon.
 
Incineroar.png
Incineroar from UR to C

The reasons why, in my opinion, Incineroar deserves to be within the vialivity ranking, are the following
- Very good check / counter of pokemon common in the meta such as: Mega Metagross, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, Kartana, Mega Mawile, Cresselia, Aegislash, Porygon 2, Mega Scizor, etc
- Good defensive stats and decent attack
- Great ability as it is intimidate
- Access to U-turn for momentum and Knock Off to remove annoying items like Eviolite from Porygon 2

On the other hand you have a couple of things that I think do not deserve to be higher on the viability list
- Landorus is better defensive pivot
- Existence of stealth rock
- Walls like Hippowdon who treat it too well
- Without access to viable recovery method

Leaving aside Incineroar, a question, why the viability rankings do not count with more ranges such as the family of the C range (C +, C-)?
always ask me why I see other tiers like OU or UU that have more accurate rankings when listing pokemon in their tier
 
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Mega Metagross from A to A+: Agree

This thing wasn't A+ already? For real though, it's strong, fast, bulky, has wide coverage, little to no guaranteed answers... Its effect on the meta (:psysly:) and on teambuilding is on par if not larger than others in A+ such as Aegislash and Charizard Y. Nothing much to say, this is just way lower than it should be, in my opinion.

Because there haven't been many other nominations (barring Tapu Fini to A+, on which I don't think I have enough knowledge to comment), I'll throw some of my own suggestions into the mix.


Garchomp from A to A-

After some talk in Discord, I'm a bit less certain of this, but I'm still going to nominate this to get some more discussion and council opinion. Essentially, the meta has gotten faster than Garchomp could manage in ORAS, with both mainstays such as Mega Salamence and Greninja to new faces such as Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko, and Naganadel giving it a hard time. The Choice Scarf set also has its own problems, specifically an extreme lack of power. Walls such as Hippowdon, Celesteela, and Porygon2 are also roadblocks for it, as is Mimikyu.

However, I'm being told that its SR + SD Sash set is actually quite good, and moving Garchomp down could also give off the implication that stuff like Mamoswine and Excadrill are better. Another solution suggested to me by jroxas could be to move all of Garchomp, Mamoswine, and Excadrill down to A-, which is something I can see happening and wouldn't be opposed to, but don't have particularly strong feelings on. It'd be great to have some opinions on that possibility as well.


Nihilego from A- to B+

This one is a bit on the shaky side honestly, but I still think it merits consideration. Admittedly this thing is good as a Scarfer, outspeeding the crucial base 100 speed tier and matching up well against stuff like the Tapus, the Zards, etc. However, it has major struggles with omnipresent Pokemon such as AV Landorus-T, Hippowdon, and Steel-types such as Celesteela and Ferrothorn in any shape or form. In my opinion, the complete inability to touch the aforementioned Ground- and Steel-types alone warrants a drop to B+.


Mega Slowbro from B+ to B

The reasoning for this nomination is quite frank: Toxapex exists. Toxapex's immunity to Toxic is just really, really big. Couple that with access Regenerator without having to lose it in exchange for increased bulk, Toxic Spikes, Haze, the ability to hold Black Sludge, and superior typing allowing it to take on threats such as Mimikyu, Mega Gyarados, and Breloom, and Toxapex is really just looking like a better option. Hell, I wouldn't even mind dropping this down to B-, but baby steps.


Mega Altaria, Gastrodon, Pyukumuku, and Mega Sceptile from C to UR

Mega Altaria just faces really big competition as a bulky Dragon-type from Mega Salamence and Mega Latias, a bulky Fairy-type from Mimikyu and Tapu Fini, and a setup sweeper by Dragonite, Garchomp, and, again, Mega Salamence and Mimikyu. The only reason you would ever use this is if you really hate both the Zards and somehow can't afford to use answers to both that are actually good.

Gastrodon just has extremely tight competition with other bulky Water- and Ground-types such as Tapu Fini, Toxapex, Landorus-T, and Hippowdon, all of which have better bulk, recovery, Stealth Rock, more power, utility... Last time this thing dropped the exact same sentiment was echoed by the council, and it was basically unanimously in favor of dropping this. I agree, but think we could do Gastro one better, or, lower.

Pyukumuku is just so awfully passive, slow, exploitable, with poor typing and a poor gimmick that's not worth using over Quagsire or Clefable. Literally anything with Taunt or Substitute annihilates it, and it doesn't offer much, if anything, over the other two. No Scald, Minimize, Calm Mind, nothing.

Like Gastrodon, when Mega Sceptile was voted on by the council it was basically torn to shreds and barely agreed to be ranked. Any sort of Steel-type just walls the hell out of this, and it relies on the exploitable Leaf Storm, the weak Dragon Pulse, and awful coverage moves to do any damage. Lightning Rod would be cool if you didn't drop to Koko's Dazzling Gleam or HP Ice, and if you didn't have to lead and Mega Evolve Sceptile to have Lightning Rod ready for a lead Tapu Koko. Why are you using this over Mega Venusaur again?
Pretty much agree with everything said above.

Garchomp in my opinion kind of is underwhelming compared to its heyday in ORAS, a great example of a solid mon that just falls short of what you want it to do in a lot of situations. Having tons of viable Fairys, especially Mimikyu and Lele added in really hurts it. The easiest way to see this is Nouthuca and the comparison between the last full season of ORAS and the most recent season. 19/47 teams in the final full season of ORAS had Garchomp on, making it joint 3rd in popularity with Gengar after Kangaskhan and Cresselia and being agreed upon being an S mon. In Gen 7 Season 9, Chomp is on 23/309 teams. I guess it really depends how you categorise the A tier. I could see mons like Kartana and Rotom-H being better than Garchomp, but the question is whether one believes its an issue of A- mons being undervalued or A tier mons being overvalued. I'd for sure agree with Mamo and Drill being put down into A- if Garchomp was, I think both are worse.

Yes, having Mega Metagross which is one of the best 10 mons in USUM BSS IMO in A is tragic and needs to change.
 
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Metagross must rise. Not being on A+ at LEAST is a crime for the most common of the megas.
I can't even remeber the last time I saw a Chomp. Hippowdon is a better lead and Landorus a better pivot, and Dragonite and Salamence win in the boosting department.
Incineroar ranked... yeah no. There are TONS of better Intimidate users. Heck, even if we had unavailable literally everything that is ranked already with Intimidate, I would rather use Staraptor instead.
I agree with Gastrodon dropping. Heck, even Empoleon is more useful than him.


Wich by the way, I think we should give a shot at Empoleon UR->C
For starters (pun intended), we have access to a literally endless list of support moves, including gems like Roar, Defog, Yawn and Stealth Rock. Decent typing and good special stats allow him to work as a water-type version of Heatran, trading Lava Plume and Earth Power for Scald and Ice Beam.

Has enough bulk and speed to defeat Hippowdon 1v1 even without Shuca Berry or Air Baloon, and you can even try and make him a lovechild of Tapu Fini and Heatran by running a Whirlpool trapper set, with the niche of being able to use Toxic right away on everything, and Roar to prevent being setup bait.

I don't like it, but if necessary, I'll go to the showdown ladder to provide as many replays as you all want. (Cartridge has better animations and less hax).

EDIT: Some replays of my main team, with a... particular anti-lead set of Empoleon.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7battlespotsingles-768169356
 
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Mega Metagross from A to A+: Agree

This thing wasn't A+ already? For real though, it's strong, fast, bulky, has wide coverage, little to no guaranteed answers... Its effect on the meta (:psysly:) and on teambuilding is on par if not larger than others in A+ such as Aegislash and Charizard Y. Nothing much to say, this is just way lower than it should be, in my opinion.

Because there haven't been many other nominations (barring Tapu Fini to A+, on which I don't think I have enough knowledge to comment), I'll throw some of my own suggestions into the mix.


Mega Slowbro from B+ to B

The reasoning for this nomination is quite frank: Toxapex exists. Toxapex's immunity to Toxic is just really, really big. Couple that with access Regenerator without having to lose it in exchange for increased bulk, Toxic Spikes, Haze, the ability to hold Black Sludge, and superior typing allowing it to take on threats such as Mimikyu, Mega Gyarados, and Breloom, and Toxapex is really just looking like a better option. Hell, I wouldn't even mind dropping this down to B-, but baby steps.
I find it slightly controversial you are convinced Metagross is A+ material because 'it has little to no guaranteed answers' while you wouldn't mind dropping Slowbro from B+ to B- because it wouldn't offer anything Toxapex hasn't to offer.
Mega Slowbro happens to be one of the best Metagross switch-ins in the entire game and Toxapex isn't. Even if Metagross has Thunder Punch (35,6% of the time), a Bold Mega Slowbro loses only 28,7-34,6% of its HP. Without Thunder Punch, Metagross deals a maximum of 17,3% damage to Slowbro with Earthquake.
A few reasons to use Slowbro over Toxapex: (1) Slowbro can break nearly all Substitutes thanks to its 130 Sp.Atk, while Toxapex is nearly as passive as Pyukumuku in that regard; (2) it is more versatile, as it can use boosting moves (ranging from Iron Defense to Amnesia to Calm Mind), support moves (Trick Room and Yawn) and has decent coverage moves (most notably Fire Blast and Ice Beam); (3) it has a much better matchup versus Ground Types (Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, Excadrill).
Furthermore, saying Toxapex is great versus Mega Gyarados is unjustified. Either Substitute, Taunt (although Scald can inflict burn) or Earthquake enables Gyarados to blast through or simply take advantage of Toxapex.

In short: I agree Toxapex often is just a good switch-in as Slowbro when it comes down to Pokémon like Blaziken and Lucario. It also fares better versus bulky Pokémon that have Toxic because it is immune to it. However, Slowbro has a better matchup versus Metagross and a number of Steel Types that frequently have Substitute (except for Aegislash). On defensive teams, which often rely on status moves (mainly Toxic) to whittle the opposing team down, having a good matchup versus Steel Types (while not being very passive) is really mandatory.
I'm prone to say Slowbro should stay B+, but feel free to disagree.
 
Gengar may not be the mega with the most usage but blissey is viable, am i blind i dont see it? I know that chansey outclasses it in every way but shed shell but i think it deserves a rank it can do everything chansey can but with less bulk, most people know what it does so no point in really pointing everything out that it does and vs the few teams with gothitelle i think it should be at least C rank BLISSEY TO C imo
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Metagross-Mega to A+, agree. It recived 2 massive buffs this gen.
#1 Speed
#2 Tapus
With auto stats it can outspeed what it needs and hit hard with even better defensive stats. The tapus buffed it with lele and koko providing a stronger zen headbutt and thunder punch. Tapu Bulu removes the ground weakness(Does cost you a weaker eq but you can just run a team not weak to fire types). Tapu finis was not that useful ig it prevents para spore and burns. its coverage with he newer mixed set I have seen is insane coverage hitting of the meta for supereffective hits and outside of that it has other great coverage running all physical moves, IP,TP,ZH(Stab),EQ,MM(Stab),IH(Stab),HA, and much more. it can even run a niche hone claws to raise accuracy and its already impressive attack. Definitely a+ MATERIAL.
 
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Darkinium

the mighty nuaguunibi
is a Pre-Contributor


Incineroar from UR to C: Disagree

This seems ok on paper, but really has no reason to be used over Heatran, who has better bulk, typing, ability to hold Leftovers, and lack of weakness to SR. Intimidate seems nice until you realize it doesn't really help with that much: Mimikyu, Landorus-T, Mega Salamence, Kartana, Mega Charizard X, (Mega) Gyarados... they all still rip through you at +0/+1, and piled on top of SR, Incineroar just can't keep up.


Empoleon from UR to C: Agree

Empoleon finds a niche in the metagame with its unique typing, allowing it to check threats such as Tapu Lele, Naganadel, Greninja, and Heatran. It can choose to run a utility set with stuff like SR and Yawn, or an AV set to help with the aforementioned Pokemon. Overall, I think Empoleon's utility and ability to check key threats is just good enough to land it in C.



Blissey from UR to C: Agree

Blissey separates itself from Chansey with the ability to hold a Shed Shell, allowing it to escape Mega Gengar and go to a trapper. To some stall builds who fall apart without Blissey this is really invaluable. Blissey also has a higher Special Attack, allowing it to utilize coverage moves such as Flamethrower and Ice Beam, bypassing Pokemon such as Naganadel and Ferrothorn. For the same reason it can also act as a wincon with Calm Mind. Definitely on par if not more useful than stuff like Wobbuffet and Talonflame.

Speaking of...

Talonflame from C to UR

OK, I know this just got axed last voting round, but to be frank even C is way too generous. Sand and SR from Hippowdon, Landorus-T, and Tyranitar and Psychic Terrain from Tapu Lele just make it impossible for this to function. If you want to click Flare Blitz, then your priority is just completely dead. The fact that Talonflame has to use up its Z-Crystal to revenge kill something to have any degree of use afterwards is a great annoyance since you can't reserve it for a wall in the back. It's also robbing another, more viable Pokemon of using a Z-Crystal themselves, such as Mimikyu or Thundurus-T. Overall, Talonflame is just way too needy and inconsistent to be worth using over other forms of speed control, crumpling to common roadblocks in nearly every match.
 
Wowee that's quite a few noms so I'll weigh in on them (and draw some great stuff).

:gross:
Mega Metagross from A to A+: Agree. I thought this was in A+ already :\ anyways being able to pick and choose the mons that counter you is an amazing ability for any mon to have, and metagross is one of the best examples of this, so I think it deserves the rise.
Id go chomper here.png

chomper from A to A- : Agree. I don't think anything has changed recently in terms of meta trends, but I think that Chomper might be a little too high in the first place considering that dragon typings seem to have been getting slightly worse as the meta has gone on in general (but still great).
dabhilego.png

Nihilego from A- to B+: Agree. I think that nihilego is the perfect definition of the B tier as it's explained in the rankings because it's walled by steel types which stops it from being very effective, but it's really good at laying rocks and has very good coverage for about half the meta, not to mention the great special bulk.
Mega Flooftaria.png

Mega Altaria from C to UR: Disagree. I like M-Altaria despite the obvious flaws, and I really don't think it should be unranked. Cotton guard is a really nice niche that can render some teams useless resulting in free easy wins (assuming no crits). Obviously it needs a ton of support against most special attackers and random status users (weakness to status can be slightly mitigated because you can use natural cure non-mega in case of random switchins to toxic).
the suckers in bss vr.png

Gastrodon, Pyukumuku, and Mega Sceptile from C to UR: Agree. All this stuff is kinda trash, especially compared to most other stuf in C-Rank
inciniroar kinda.png

Incineroar from UR to C: Disagree. I've never seen Incineroar on a good team in a long time, let alone a meme team, so I'm assuming it's pretty bad. I don't see much of a reason to include this on a team over lando unless you built the team poorly to begin with so that you need to use the incredibly specific niche of a fire type intimidate user that might be able to attack twice because it's so slow.
Empoleon.png

Empoleon UR->C: Agree. I think that the unique typing along with rocks justifies a slot in C rank by itself, but definitely a good support mon.
blissey v2.png

Blissey UR -> C: Agree. I've used Blissey before, not on stall though so I only have it from the angle of the stupid meme set I used, but blissey CAN run attacks other than seismic toss for damage which is another niche over chansey.

I would weigh in on Slowbro, but I've never used it. I'm also not original so I don't have any noms of my own.
 

chemcoop

When in doubt, Rock Slide out!
is a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Re: Nihilego from A- to B+

While both of the posts suggesting that Nihilego should be relegated to B+ due to its inability to hit things like Ferrothorn or Aegislash for meaningful damage outside of HP Fire (lol) are technically correct, I think both posts also miss what Nihilego does well.

As Biber said, you can run coverage moves that can pick off weakened Nihilego "counters" like Celesteela and Hippowdon with Thunderbolt and Grass Knot, and Nihilego's ability to force switches means that you can often get Stealth Rocks for pretty much free. While these are certainly neat and cool tricks, they don't really define Nihilego's true role in the metagame: blasting big-time threats.

Nihilego is probably the only Pokémon outside of maybe Dragonium Garchomp that can beat both Charizard megas in a 1v1. It can also handle boosted Volcarona quite nicely and is one of the few things I can think of that can switch into Thundy-T's Thunderbolt twice without also having to worry about dropping to a coverage move on the predicted switch. The set that I've been using in videos even runs Modest Scarf Psychic to switch into Naganadel on a Dragonium Z and bop it with a surprise OHKO. Looking at the top 30 BSS mons, Nihilego can check or counter both Charizards (#4), Salamence (#5), Tapu Fini (#6), Tapu Lele (#9), Tapu Koko (#10), Gengar (#14), Thundy-T (#18), Volcarona (#21), Naganadel (#22), and Rotom-H (#30). In certain scenarios (aka depending on Nihilego/opposing sets, chip damage, etc.) you can even stop Lando-T (#2), Garchomp (#25), and Greninja (#3). While it can be a bit of a feast-or-famine Pokémon in that sometimes it can easily clean through a team while getting completely walled in other games, it is impossible to deny the valuable niche that this Pokémon has carved out in the current metagame.

As someone who has probably used Nihilego more than anyone else in the BSS community (including on two teams that made 2k+), I am adamantly opposed to dropping it to B+ and think it should remain A-. Definitely feel free to debate more, but I don't think "gets walled by steels lol" is a sufficient knock to justify ignoring all of the common boosted/scarf threats that this thing can stop. In fact, I believe Nihilego is A- only because it can't hit steels and that it probably would be A if it had access to Flamethrower or Earth Power.
 

cant say

twitch.tv/jakecantsay
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being able to pick and choose the mons that counter you is an amazing ability for any mon to have
I think this actually work against Meta. No matter what you choose, it's going to be hardwalled by something which requires extra team support. It's kind of similar to why Volcarona is only A; you'd think being able to run a billion Z moves would make it more viable, but no matter what you choose it's going to lose to something. Both Meta and Volc can either 3-0 a team or be useless in a game. I don't see Meta as being as viable as say the Zards or Gyara, just like Volc isn't a splashable as Gren or Naga.


I was writing something about Nihi today but ended up saving a draft to come back to, but saw chemcoop has since said everything I wanted to. It's a really good mon with a very important role in the meta (ie: one of the best anti-meta mons) and definitely better than B+
 

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