Metagame BW Doubles OU

[Amaranth]

This thread is dedicated to information and discussion about the Generation 5 Doubles Metagame, BW Doubles
​

BW DOUBLES COUNCIL
The council is currently:
Actuarily
Amaranth
DaAwesomeDude1
DaWoblefet
Idyll
SMB
Smudge
yuki
zee

PLAY RESTRICTIONS

• Evasion Clause: Players cannot use the moves Double Team or Minimize.
• Moody Clause: Players cannot use a Pokemon with the Moody ability.
• OHKO Clause: Players cannot use the moves Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill, or Sheer Cold.
• Species Clause: Players cannot use two Pokemon with the same Pokedex number on the same team.
• Sleep Clause: Players cannot put two Pokemon on the opposing team to sleep.

POKEMON RESTRICTIONS
Players cannot use the following Pokemon:

• Mewtwo
• Lugia
• Ho-oh
• Kyogre
• Groudon
• Rayquaza
• Jirachi
• Dialga
• Palkia
• Giratina
• Giratina-Origin
• Arceus
• Reshiram
• Zekrom
• Kyurem-White

MOVE RESTRICTIONS
Players cannot use the following moves:

• Dark Void
• Gravity
• Swagger

ITEM RESTRICTIONS
Players cannot use the following item:

• Soul Dew

NOTABLE MECHANIC CHANGES
The following are key differences between BW Doubles and later generations:

• Steel resists Ghost and Dark
• Gems exist and confer a 1.5x boost
• Knock Off has 20 base power
• Ability-summoned weather conditions are permanent
• Follow Me/Rage Powder have +3 priority (same as Fake Out)
• Standard Singles Sleep Clause is enforced
• Grass Types are affected by powders, Electric Types can be paralyzed
• Sleep Timer resets on switch-out
• Wide Guard / Quick Guard can fail like Protect
• Double Protects work 50% of the time.
• Critical Hits do 2x Damage
• Various Special Attacks have adjusted BP, PP, or Accuracy.
  • List of notable changes:
    • Air Slash has 20 PP instead of 15 PP
    • Assurance has 50 BP instead of 60 BP
    • Aura Sphere has 90 BP instead of 80 BP
    • Blizzard has 120 BP instead of 110 BP
    • Draco Meteor has 140 BP instead of 130 BP
    • Dragon Pulse has 90 BP instead of 85 BP
    • Energy Ball has 80 BP instead of 90 BP
    • Fire Blast has 120 BP instead of 110 BP
    • Flamethrower has 95 BP instead of 90 BP
    • Glare has 90 Accuracy instead of 100 Accuracy
    • Heat Wave has 100 BP instead of 95 BP
    • Hidden Power has variable BP, ranging from 30 BP to 70 BP, instead of a flat 60 BP
    • Hurricane has 120 BP instead of 110 BP
    • Hydro Pump has 120 BP instead of 110 BP
    • Ice Beam has 95 BP instead of 90 BP
    • Knock Off has 20 BP instead of 65 BP
    • Leaf Storm has 140 BP instead of 130 BP
    • Meteor Mash has 100 BP and 85 Accuracy instead of 90 BP and 90 Accuracy
    • Muddy Water has 95 BP instead of 90 BP
    • Overheat has 140 BP instead of 130 BP
    • Surf has 95 BP instead of 90 BP
    • Tailwind has 30 PP instead of 15 PP
    • Technoblast has 85 BP instead of 120 BP
    • Thunder has 120 BP instead of 110 BP
    • Thunderbolt has 95 BP instead of 90 BP
    • Will-O-Wisp has 75 Accuracy instead of 85 Accuracy

 

[Idyll]

BW DOUBLES VIABILITY RANKINGS

This is the Generation 5 Doubles Viability Rankings where Pokemon are ranked based on viability in the metagame. The rankings and tier descriptions have been assigned to better each Pokemon's state within the metagame. These rankings will not be updated as periodically as last generation but may have shifts after big tournaments featuring this generation.​

Tier 1

Pokemon that have a good matchup vs a large portion of the metagame, are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon.

Jellicent
Landorus-T
Latios
Thundurus-I
Tyranitar

Tier 2

Pokemon that are generally strong, but can be dead weight in some matchups, don't have great matchups vs a lot of Tier 1, or are only particularly useful for checking a certain team style.

Amoonguss
Conkeldurr
Cresselia
Excadrill
Heatran
Kingdra
Kyurem-B
Metagross
Politoed

Tier 3

Pokemon which have broad applications on a variety of teams but are simply less effective than the Pokemon in the higher tiers. This also includes Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support but are still stronger than Pokemon in the tiers below.

Ferrothorn
Gastrodon
Genesect
Hitmontop
Scizor
Scrafty
Shaymin-S
Thundurus-T

Tier 4

Pokemon that can only serve a specific role not needed by most teams, but can still perform excellently.

Abomasnow
Breloom
Bisharp
Chansey
Cobalion
Deoxys-Attack
Hydreigon
Latias
Keldeo
Marowak
Rotom-W
Salamence
Suicune
Terrakion
Tornadus-I
Volcarona

 

[Idyll]

BW Doubles OU Sample Teams

These are teams for getting into the BW DOU metagame! The purpose of this is to showcase proven successful DOU teams in order to help aspiring new players jump into the tier and get acclimated to the tier's numerous team playstyles and archetypes.​

Goodstuffs by DaWoblefet


Weatherless Heatran by DaWoblefet


Rain by DaAwesomeDude1


Excadrill Sand by SMB


Choice Band Kyurem-B-centric by DaWoblefet


Choice Band Genesect-centric by DaWoblefet


Full Trick Room by SMB

 

[MajorBowman]

i love shaian

 

[AuraRayquaza]

I'd say move keldeo, tran and definitely scizor to 1.5. I think keldeo was seen once in dpl and for good reason. Loses to torn, thund, latios, cress, amoon and skymin. Its still good because its STABs are qute nice but not tier 1 worthy.

Tran is really good next to cress and overall gives good switchins to a lot of dangerous stuff (steels, latios etc). The sub set is strong af. Like it can just sit on the field forever sometimes. Eruptran under tr is a huge threat too. Loses to a bit too much for tier 1.

From dpl scizor emerged as a huge threat. It actually finds quite a lot of opportunities to set up an sd and just kill stuff without huge amounts of support. Its at least 2hkoing most stuff in the meta and has strong priority to pick off faster stuff. Once again is useless vs some mons so not 1 but its definitely better than tier 3.

I could also see amoong in tier 1 but 1.5 is fine for it.

And one thing that that OP doesnt say is that swagger isnt banned (no idea why) so prepare your anus

 

[Arcticblast]

So shaian and I were messing around with Lando-T EV spreads for like an hour earlier and we came to a couple conclusions (listed below with my personal input):

Hide

- You should be running at least 367 Attack to OHKO Tornadus and offensive Thundurus with Stone Edge. This doesn't lose any major OHKOs to my knowledge, and still keeps the 2HKOs you need. Hitting this number requires 32 Attack EVs with an Adamant nature or 164 EVs with a neutral nature.
- - I honestly like Stone Edge a lot more than Rock Slide for this reason, especially since Tornadus is my personal nightmare on any team that I don't throw a Metagross on.
- Unless you want to run 252 Jolly with a Gem, the best speed benchmark seems to be around the 260-266 range. 260 means you outrun Shaymin-S with Scarf, 266 Aerodactyl. 263 means you'll outrun positive base 70s like Breloom and Politoed without a Scarf.
- - I don't really think any higher is necessary; the only big base 80 I can think of is Mamoswine, and Heatran is almost always Modest. I wonder if there are any good Tailwind benchmarks... nah they're probably all EV'd to outrun Scarf Lando-T LOL
- It's impossible to get super spicy defensive benchmarks along with these important offensive benchmarks. We tried calcing unboosted Tornadus Gem Acrobatics + Scarf TTar Rock Slide and it's just SO many EVs.
- You can EV Lando-T to take on Choice Band Kyurem-B! ...as long as it doesn't click Ice Beam, anyway.

We still need to test our super spicy Lando-T spread so I'm not dropping it here, but I figured Lando-T observations are always good, and I personally love seeing people come up with creative spreads.

I also want to give a quick shoutout to Metagross. This Pokemon is so god damn strong it's ridiculous, you just click Meteor Mash and watch things die. Strong Bullet Punch is super useful for picking things off, and it probably does really big damage to Tyranitar too; Scizor technically does that part better but Scizor doesn't get Meteor Mash >:( Metagross is also super bulky, so you can switch it in on big hits. Add some speed control and holy shit

Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Bullet Punch
- Ice Punch / Hammer Arm

I've just been running Choice Band on a really offensive team, and it does exactly what it says on the box. I think Steel Gem and Lum with a Swagger partner is also super potent; I know AuraRayquaza beat me multiple times with the latter. Metagross is just a fucking monster. I need to find some cool EV spreads for this too.

 

[Bughouse]

132 speed gets you above min speed rotom-w, and CB Zen Headbutt does 70% minimum. I think Steel Gem is better in any case, but if I were running CB, I'd want way more speed to get above that benchmark and probably creep it too.

 

[AuraRayquaza]

Trick is cool for messing with ferro/cress and stuff like latios. Also i guess ill post a team thats actually up to date and very good.

Importable

Metagross @ Lum Berry
Ability: Clear Body
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Protect

Hitmontop @ Fighting Gem
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Wide Guard
- Feint

Latios @ Dragon Gem
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Protect

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 180 HP / 252 Atk / 76 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Rock Slide
- Superpower

Thundurus @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 192 HP / 76 SpA / 220 SpD / 20 Spe
Calm Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Swagger

Gastrodon-East @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 168 HP / 28 Def / 164 SpA / 148 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Muddy Water
- Earth Power
- Icy Wind
- Protect

Just the team i used in dpl finals, has a good matchup against everything except some infernape +torn stuff which you need to play well vs. Swagger thund + gross is good enough to win some games just by leading it and gastro evs live either a dragon gem draco from latios or a fighting gem cc from hitmontop. One of my favorite bw teams

 

[miltankmilk]

Can we actually ban swagger from this format? Realistically there's no difference between swagger here and in XY where it was banned. Nobody actually defends the merits of swagger in this format and it negatively affects the competitiveness of just about every game its in.

edit: I will use this post as a compilation of "holy shit ban this move" replays as evidence for why it has no place in gen5 doubles.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5doublesou-301030
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5doublesou-561897387

 

[MajorBowman]

In light of the recent council vote on Swagger in SM Doubles OU, the council has also decided to organize a vote on Swagger in BW DOU. The move Swagger, while sometimes used in conjunction with a Lum or Persim berry to boost a partner's attack, has primarily become a means of disrupting opponents by forcing unnecessarily luck-based elements into battles. This has been a frequent topic of conversation among the Doubles community, and since action is being taken in SM and was already taken in ORAS, it was decided that it only makes sense to examine Swagger in BW as well.

However, the participants of this vote are not simply the Doubles OU Council. Since most members of the council have less recent experience in BW Doubles than other members of the community, recent tournaments including BW DOU were taken into account. Users were selected if they met at least one of following criteria:

1. At least three (3) games played in the BW DOU tier in DPL 3
2. At least six total (6) points earned in Weeks 3 and 6 (the only two weeks of BW DOU) of Smogon Doubles Tournament

The following users have qualified and will be the only users participating in this vote:
AuraRayquaza
Mizuhime
Pocket
qsns
SableyeMyBae
Stax
Toxigen
Yellow Paint

The vote will occur this week, and the results will be posted by Friday. A supermajority of 60% will be required for Swagger to be banned. This vote WILL affect the remainder of Smogon Doubles Tournament, including Week 9 and Playoffs.

 

[Arcticblast]

Please ban it

 

[mimi]

hehehe

 

[shaian]

huehuehue

 

[Bughouse]

teehee

 

[MajorBowman]

BW Swagger Vote
A. Ban Swagger
B. Do Not Ban Swagger

AuraRayquaza

A. Ban Swagger

I think swagger in BW is an interesting one, slightly different to both SM and ORAS. In ORAS swagger was almost solely used as a cheese strat to save a lost game, and in SM it is pretty much only used for boosting setup partners. In BW you have a mix of both, I have seen a couple of mons use a lum berry in conjunction with DD (gyarados and ttar) to boost up, or just on its own to blow holes (Metagross), but you also have the thundurus emergency button too as shown in the replays in the bw thread. I plan to address both.

The whole sideswag is most definitely not broken. To effectively sideswag, you need to spend your item slot on lum berry so it is not free by any means. Its a shame, because i think sideswagging in BW is a very interesting part of the meta. You can at any time during a battle take a +1/+1 mon and go for game, but you only get one chance rather than being able to spam boosts.

The confusion is the real issue here. With swagger, thundurus can effectively have no checks, as it is a 50% chance to just not move not even factoring in swagger. with most teams, sideswag just becomes an added bonus which in my opinion is dreadfully unhealthy. There is no place for 50/50 get-out-of-jail cards in a competitive meta. In too many games, and some important ones at that, I have seen swagger turn a deservedly lost game into a win, or just give a disadvantage too large to overcome. The potential 'you can just switch out' argument is also flawed since sometimes you dont have that luxury, as in my dpl battle, where ttar was my kyub and thund check but ended up not moving.

Mizuhime

B. Do Not Ban Swagger

This had to be extremely obvious coming from me, but i'll give my reasoning as well.

As someone who's been actively playing BW and Doubles since its inception way back when, i've truly never felt Swagger to be a problem in any generation, even less so in BW. Doubles allows you play around a single Pokemon trying to swagger you with the use of protect, and it being Doubles allows you to use Swagger to boost your own partners attack stat (though not often seen in bw as it was in sm.) Just taking a quick observation at the current stat of BW, weather is obviously the most prominent part of the meta and the only really Swagger users are Thundurus or the extremely rare Liepard.

The conclusions i've always drawn from playing is that Thundurus typically only runs Thunder Wave and would much rather paralyze the Rain Sweepers like Kingdra and Ludicolo than go for Swagger. Against Sand teams Thunudurs typically isn't going to be staying in on Tyranitar or Excadrill as they just kill him. I believe Swagger "got better" and became a "problem" in ORAS when Thundurus got better too. With every team having gems on them in BW more things were able to nuke Thundurus for an OHKO than you ever saw in ORAS. The rise of mega's and fairies also made Pokemon that could deal with Thundurus easier than some Pokemon, worse.

Personally speaking, I think Thunder wave is a much larger problem than swagger ever has been. Paralyzes doesn't ware off, lowers your speed, and has a larger chance to make you not move over the course of the battles than Swagger's confusion does. I never see Swagger decide a game, but Thunder wave does frequently

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Pocket

Abstain

qsns

Swagger: Ban

Swagger is a move with nearly no drawback and allows for poor playing or threat management to be rewarded on a coinflip. Its wide distribution gives it to Pokemon with great bulk or Prankster, making it unparalleled in its ability to cheese out games because of how hard it is to knock out the best users of the move. swagger gives otherwise passive Pokemon like bulky Thundurus and Cresselia ways to generate free turns, the most important resource in DOU, making the move extremely powerful and in my eyes, broken.

SableyeMyBae

Abstain

Stax

A. Ban Swagger

Swagger is an immensely powerful move with virtually no counterplay. It allows players to gain significant momentum with its high chance of succeeding, its immobilty and its ability to stack damage. Though I believe there is some skill in realizing when to use swagger at the correct time, the lack of counterplay makes it overbearing. An opponent must simply hope that they do not get hit by it or try to switch around it but lose momentum. Couple this with the fact that bw dou is generally a more specially based metagame and that the meta has lower damage output compared to other generations means that pokemon like bulky thundurus can abuse swagger even more than in other generations. Thus I am voting to ban swagger.

Toxigen

A. Ban Swagger

I don't really have much knowledge of the BW metagame, but I truly don't see a reason why this move should still be allowed in the tier. I feel it's an unhealthy move for the game in general, self swagger is a pretty solid option, but of course that coinflip chance it's the main problem, you shouldnt have the opportunity to block your opponents pokemon with a coinflip for a turn and potentially more.

Yellow Paint

A. Ban Swagger

Lum meta/sciz are fun and honestly beneficial additions to the tier, but since there's no swag clause option I'm picking ban straight away. Swag just adds more luck into matches, and crucial, game-hinging coinflips at that. Thund is the main culprit, but torn or any other fast mon can use it nearly as well, suggesting the move itself is uncompetitive. An example case is thund swagging a tr setter out of fear/knowledge of mental herb, or just not carrying taunt because it's actually more viable to gain an extra moveslot by relying on swag instead. Anyways, swag flips coins regardless of speed control, and while lum exists on certain mons to protect from other status, there's no real way to "outplay" your eruptran from hitting itself or even reliably switch in. Swag's been here a long time, and it won't be missed.

Final Results: 5 Ban, 1 Do Not Ban, 2 Abstain

Thus Swagger is Banned from BW Doubles OU

 

[mimi]

:(

 

[Arcticblast]

The evil has been defeated

 

[miltankmilk]

 

[miltankmilk]

annual BW doubles BUMP
Im mostly an observer in this meta but I think the VR can use some updating. Not sure who is really in charge here but im gonna bullet point some noms and hopefully we can talk about them as doubles tour starts soon.

Cress 1.5->1 - this mon is almost meta defining at this point. It saw a ton of usage in DPL, great utility and great bulk that fits well in such an offensive meta.
Tyranitar 1->1.5 - I've never really been impressed with tar in BW dubs, the meta is too fast paced and it loses hard to rain shit scizor, conk tr, a whole bunch of things really.
Politoed 1.5-> 1 - Rain is pretty dominant in this meta and politoed itself is actually pretty decent beyond setting rain. Very potent pokemon and has a very important role in the meta rn.
Scizor 3->1.5 - This mon dominated DPL, fits really well on rain teams and weatherless teams. 3 is a pretty criminal rank for scizor so move this thing up.

 

[Biosci]

annual BW doubles BUMP
Im mostly an observer in this meta but I think the VR can use some updating. Not sure who is really in charge here but im gonna bullet point some noms and hopefully we can talk about them as doubles tour starts soon.

Cress 1.5->1 - this mon is almost meta defining at this point. It saw a ton of usage in DPL, great utility and great bulk that fits well in such an offensive meta.
Tyranitar 1->1.5 - I've never really been impressed with tar in BW dubs, the meta is too fast paced and it loses hard to rain shit scizor, conk tr, a whole bunch of things really.
Politoed 1.5-> 1 - Rain is pretty dominant in this meta and politoed itself is actually pretty decent beyond setting rain. Very potent pokemon and has a very important role in the meta rn.
Scizor 3->1.5 - This mon dominated DPL, fits really well on rain teams and weatherless teams. 3 is a pretty criminal rank for scizor so move this thing up.

Scizor at 3 is an absolute sin wtf. I could see it going to 1, but 1.5 makes sense. Its ability to just create an end game with its defenses and swords dances is insane. You almost can't have a team that doesn't have at least 2 ways of keeping this mon in check. More I'm typing this, the more I'm feeling like 1 is the answer....

Keldeo 1 -> 2 Saw almost no usage in DPL. Hard folds to any decent TR team and bodied by genies and cress which are kind of everywhere right now. It does get some nice calcs and typing lets you work around rain and sand MUs nicely, so I can see arguments for 1.5 but no higher

Tyranitar should stay 1. Its still one of the meta defining mons which you can slap on almost any "weatherless" team to better a rain MU, make certain calcs more in your favor, etc

Shaymin-S 1.5 -> 2 Saw almost no usage. Doesn't enjoy facing the genies, can't KO top without a boosting item, and another mon that hates TR while its seeing a rise in usage. Just not a fan of this mon.

Ludicolo 2 -> 3 I never liked ludi in BW. It always saw more usage as a rain "tech" than actually being used on rain itself and even then it doesn't do the job well. Either you faint to a HH Draco Kingdra or you live long enough to see the rest of your team gone around you.

Weavile 2 -> 3 Already doesn't favor the rain and sand MU, doesn't favor the Cress/TR MU much even if you pack a non-Beat Up Dark move considering your best option this gen is Night Slash, and in a meta dominated by Scizor.... Yea I just don't see this mon much any more.

I'll probably post more later but these were ones I noticed while skimming. I agree with the ones I didn't comment on from milk, just saw and thought I'd throw my 2 cents in

 

[Checkmater]

Here's the BW team I built for finals vs Psynergy. I really feel infernape has a lot of untapped potential and I like the team insofar as there's no single mon it struggles against, and there are workarounds for all its hard complex matchups / combinations. Offensive fake out is just so good

http://pokepast.es/fd074d2e517f6c3f

-----

VR noms:

I definitely disagree with Cress-> 1, it's got 0 ability to output offensive pressure, it can't function as a cm set because of all the weather, so it's left to roadside utility moves and easily forseeable coverage. Who's really keeping their landot in on a cress instead of taking the freest uturn of their life? Its bad mu against common tr checks and lack of resists really keep it down despite its bulk.

Echoing Ttar stays 1. It doesn't have a bad rain matchup: on the right team it greatly helps your rain matchup. In addition, it's one of the only tornadus acro switchins,

Scizor in 1 is totally fair

Agree with the rest of Biosci's comments

I think Infernape -> 1.5 or 1 is a good idea: combined with another fast attacker like tornadus or latios, it essentially freezes your opponent's game options from preview. Its ability to punish is a fake out lead, for example, or to just generally win great leads for a team the turn it's out is :sogood:. Scizor matchup is also way better than the other fake outs / fighting types since it resists. In my game infernape basically did 300% even though it got paralyzed midway through and provided a lot of pressure for the team.

I wanna see Thundurus dropped a notch, to 1.5 or 2: losing swagger as a catchall 45% to win a turn hurts significantly, and it doesn't check tr very well since taunt is pretty telegraphed and its matchup vs tr attackers is pretty bad. It's still valuable as a rain check, and tornadus counter, but it's got significant drawbacks imo.

Toed -> 2 since the description of tier 2 matches it better

Kingdra -> tier 1 because rain is really good?

I think top could drop but maybe I just don't like it?

I wanna see Kyube-> tier 1, just because choice bad is so nuts and does so much, its rain matchup isn't bad when you consider that kingdra has to draco instead of water stabbing away, which leads to prediction gimmicks.

Ferro -> 1.5 just as a description that I feel fits better.

 

[Psynergy]

I have only one team in my teambuilder that didn't have Hitmontop and I didn't even make that one myself, there's so much utility on that thing and it fits on basically any team. Fake Out/Intimidate/Wide Guard/Helping Hand/Feint/Sucker Punch gives it so many options to support a team and Fighting is just a great typing. Don't drop the top.

Kyurem-B is broken though, there's a lot of meta threats that mess with it (Tyranitar, Metagross, Hitmontop, Scizor, Kingdra) but CB Kyurem deletes things anyway and Tyranitar is like the only common one that can get around redirection. Sub Kyurem is also great and I don't think that got enough use in the past. I think 1.5 is still arguably a fair place for it because support from stuff like Hitmontop, Cress or Amoonguss is part of what makes it really insane but it's just a terrifying mon that just sit there and destroys things if it isn't immediately threatened.

 

[AuraRayquaza]

So with the bw thread in new ownership i thought I'd post what I think is a more up to date vr that maybe you can take ideas from/discuss.

Rankings

Tier 1
Thundurus I
Tornadus I
Hitmontop
Tyranitar

Tier 1.5
Scizor
Cresselia
Politoed
Kingdra
Kyurem-B
Metagross
Amoonguss
Heatran
Latios

Tier 2
Landorus-T
Keldeo
Shaymin-Sky
Volcarona
Ferrothorn
Gastrodon
Abomasnow
Infernape
Rotom-W
Terrakion
Togekiss
Excadrill
Conkeldurr

Tier 3
Jellicent
Weavile
Suicune
Breloom
Bisharp
Salamence
Deoxys-A
Mamoswine
Gyarados
Rotom-H
Hydreigon
Genesect
Victini

I think its really tough to accurately show rains impact on the metagame through the vr. Clearly it is really good but you wouldnt use toed/kingdra on their own and stuff like ludi is just not worth it for the stuff it gets walled by. Idk if you were able to put toed+kingdra as a pair itd def be tier 1.
You could make a case for Lando T to 1.5 but I dont think its incredible just because it gets chipped really easily and also rain :I
And then just stuff like genesect, deo a etc could go to 2 and exca, toge etc could go to 3 but I just went based on how much Ive actually seen the mons.

 

[Checkmater]

I feel I mostly agree with that list except Kingdra -> 1 and toed -> 2 is more reflective of their respective power and the descriptions match better. Despite the fact that you'd never use one without the other, Kingdra is clearly the more impactful of the pair and the same reasoning is used to differentiate them in the gen 7 VR.

Other than that I honestly feel that tier 3 could be removed completely, as it serves little purpose for someone attempting to get a grasp of the metagame and is just more upkeep to maintain for a metagame that already lacks activity. I could see Goth -> 2 or 3 (assuming it stays) as I've seen Demantoid use it very well, and I've used it and it's a lot of fun, especially good for trapping fires for easy elimination so Ferro can sweep.

 

[megacyber]

hey, can we get some fresh sample squads now that we've got that tournament coming up?