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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

SpecsX said:
What the guy above me said, longevity. You could use Giga Drain, but that depends on your opponent not resisting Grass. You can also get at least 1 more QD if you play your cards right, which could be the game-changer.
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that makes perfect sense, actually. i still prefer giga drain, but i suppose that's just a matter of playstyle and the team i built around my rain volcarona.

i think this discussion has died down a bit. if anyone wants to move on, i'm kind of interested in thoughts on amoonguss. when regenerator was released, the mushroom got all sorts of crazy high usage, but it seems to have died down very quickly. is this due to the prevalence of tornadus-t, the advent of more offensive teams in the metagame, or simply a fluke? have people forgotten about amoonguss, or will it see a rise in usage again once (if?) this extremely offensive metagame calms down? your thoughts.
 
as lavos spawn said, what annoys me about volc is that a) if you run it in rain you obviously have hurricane on it so say goodbye to surprise factor (but damn hurricane really does kick ass on volc... you get walled by heatran anyway unless you run hp ground so w/e) and b) it has an increasing case of 4mss due to having both quiver dance and roost. i really like having roost on volc especially because it reduces your vulnerability to sr but man your coverage just falls so far if you run a second support move. fire is never a good type for 2-move coverage; its super effective coverage can only shine as part of a trio or otherwise it really falls short.

and i'm just gonna take a shot in the dark and say that as more people start thinking about gothitelle, the popularity of the bromoonguss core is gonna really fall. that's gotta be part of it, in any case. gothitelle absolutely slaughters regenerator cores (amoonguss's weakness to psychic does not help in the slightest) for obvious reasons unless you choose to run shed shell on everything... which is doable, but hardly ideal, and a wasted item slot if your opp is not running goth. shed shell is the kind of item that's almost never become an established standard, even in DW where taglure was around (iirc stats for blissey and what not didn't show a dominating percentage using shed shell, at any point in the metagame's development). the only mon i can think of where using shed shell is a regular concern is skarm because zone's been around like forever and usually teams that run skarm don't have any other counters (hard or soft) to physical dragons. shadow taggers on the other hand are relatively rare despite their power (we'll see what happens when taglure shows up lol) and i think that even though shell is nice insurance, it'll remain niche on bromoonguss and so goth will continue to dismantle it with ease.
 
Well i think that there is a reason for the usage to fall. I think it is because Amoonguss is not such a great wall that it can tank hits without noticing. People have overestimated Amoonguss. Now that they found out that it is actually not that strong they are just not using it anymore. I am not saying that amoonguss is bad. It is good! However, people didnt use it correctly. The good players did use it correctly but the less skilled players thought that it could fit at any team. We all know that the main purpose of amoonguss is countering Keldeo and Breloom and some other slow walls by sporing them.
Its usage will definitely rise when the other players understand the main function of amoonguss.

EDIT: And the what the guy above me said
 
Lavos Spawn said:
that makes perfect sense, actually. i still prefer giga drain, but i suppose that's just a matter of playstyle and the team i built around my rain volcarona.

i think this discussion has died down a bit. if anyone wants to move on, i'm kind of interested in thoughts on amoonguss. when regenerator was released, the mushroom got all sorts of crazy high usage, but it seems to have died down very quickly. is this due to the prevalence of tornadus-t, the advent of more offensive teams in the metagame, or simply a fluke? have people forgotten about amoonguss, or will it see a rise in usage again once (if?) this extremely offensive metagame calms down? your thoughts.
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My belief is everyone wanted a hard counter to Keldeo, which didn't live up to what many thought it would have been. It's still a good Pokemon, but players have found other means to extinguish the little horse's gallop down. Also Breloom was released with Tech, seeing as Amoonguss resisted his stabs as well of course it was hugely demanded on teams of those who still in mind-set feared the new powerhouses of BW2
 
Well, I suspect its usage has died down due to its weaknesses to Psychic and Flying, which, due to ST Goth and rain's prevalence, respectively, have become more common. If rain becomes less dominant, its usage will likely increase, but its hard to say whether it will be "officially" OU at that time.
 
@alkinesthetase: that's what i was forgetting, gothitelle...yeah shadow tag is a real pain for bromoonguss cores as a) they can't utilize regen and b) goth demolishes them both, especially the specs variant which is another reason why i'm advocating it over scarf goth.

@emirinho: i don't really know what you're saying here, however i would agree that amoonguss has been overrated in the past. before we knew stuff like tornadus-t was also coming to bw2 and would easily be able to shut amoonguss down, we all assumed amoonguss was going to be the perfect defensive mon. now we get that it has some flaws, but i don't think people are confused as to what it's supposed to do. it comes in, walls stuff, spores stuff, gets back out and regains hp. rinse and repeat.

@Ricky Horror: i think amoonguss is still a great keldeo counter, but i think people are discovering that tornadus-t still ohkos it at +1 sdef and also has like 100 more base speed than amoonguss. spore is really amazing though, and for that reason alone i think amoonguss should have more usage than it currently does. techniloom is super prevalent too, and amoonguss is check #1 to that thing...

@SpecsX: i don't think less rain usage will make amoonguss more prevalent. i think saying less tornadus-t usage would be more accurate, as amoonguss actually functions really well in rain. not only does it get one of its weaknesses eliminated, it's also a great check to a bunch of common rain 'mons, including politoed (always on rain teams :toast:), keldeo, and breloom. you're correct in saying that st goth decreases its usage though. still can't believe i forgot that.

thanks for the solid responses, guys, i appreciate it.
 
amoongus was never that good in the first place. people are just starting to realize it now that the hype is dying down. not only that, but every new poke that comes along seems tailor made to kill it dead. i think it'll see some use here and there, but it will not be making the OU cutoff anytime soon.

@above poster: that's a tough question. i'd say flying type. tornadus-t's scary powerful STAB hurricane has shown how incredible the flying type can be.
close second would be bug. genesect is breathing new life into voltturn with his massively powerful download-boosted u-turn.
 
SpecsX said:
Ok, new topic. Which type is the most advantageous in today's metagame? Not dual-type, just type.
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SteelIC_Big.png
, hands down. with the most prevalent special attacker being tornadus-t (whose hurricane is resisted by steel), followed by latios (whose draco meteor is resisted by steel), there's no question what type is king. take a look at the physical side, too. #1 physical attacker is scizor. both u-turn and bullet punch are resisted by steel. #2 physical attacker? dragonite. oh, steel resists that stab outrage of his? well what a coincidence.

honestly i don't think this is much of a competition. when you're resistant to 11 types and immune to 1, while weak to only 3, you're probably the best type around.
 
I would say steel. Because 90% of teams have a steel pokemon if not more. Nowadays there are many tipes of teams but everyone puts a steel-typed pokemon on his team. Of course for a reason! Steel type has the most resists. It resists toxic,6,75% damage from SR, usually bulky and can take hits. Plus, in the rain one of their weaknesses are neutralized. There are many great steel-typed pokemon as well. That's why in my opinion the Steel types are the most advantageous.

EDIT:I am always too late :D at least we have the same opinion...
 
What about Electric? The Voltturn you mentioned requires Volt Switch. Also, every single one of its resistances is useful. It resists Steel(Iron Head and Bullet Punch), Flying(Hurricane), and Electric(Thunder/Tbolt and Volt Switch).
 
All types have an advatage of theirs even poison (removing TS). However, the steel types are simply dominant because of the above mentioned reasons.
 
SpecsX said:
What about Electric? The Voltturn you mentioned requires Volt Switch. Also, every single one of its resistances is useful. It resists Steel(Iron Head and Bullet Punch), Flying(Hurricane), and Electric(Thunder/Tbolt and Volt Switch).
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electric on its own would be a sick type if ground wasn't completely immune to it. also there's like 0 good pokemon out there that use physical electric attacks (ok maybe victini), meaning that mr. #4 in usage, tyranitar himself, can wall electric types to death, save rotom-w who is a dual type and something else entirely.

it's true that electric has some nice resistances, though. i wouldn't bring up steel because the only pokemon that really use steel-type attacks are magnezone and jirachi, and their flash cannon and iron head, respectively, aren't really meant for coverage purposes (you could argue yes for magnezone, but definitely no for jirachi). resistance to the omnipresent hurricane is sweet though. overall i'd put electric in my top 5 types, not the best one though.
 
It could also be argued that Steel is a hindrance. Admittedly, Magnezone isn't running around everywhere right now, but it's still a threat. If resisting Dragon is your primary argument, then Dragon could indeed be the best type, as it has one type that resists its STAB, a type that comes with a mon designed to take down Steel-types specifically.
 
Here is a topic: What is/are the best lead counter against a rain team. That/these counter(s) has to beat Politoed and all its sets and the classical members of a rain team :Scizor,Tornadus-t,Tentacruel and Ferrothorn.
For me Jirachi and Breloom/Amoonguss :D make a nice counter although Scarftoed beats breloom...

I know one cant be 100% sure he will counter a weather but i want to hear your thoughts about this.

EDIT: Response to the post above. Dragon type would surely be the best type if toxic was not present and if the team preview wasnt there. Because with the team preview you know that there is a magnezone out there. And when you know that there is a magnezone on your opponents team you will be careful and you will try to eliminate him.
 
Focus Sash Dugtrio. It 2HKOs most variants of Politoed, and unless you hit it with Hypnosis or burn it w/ Scald, it's an easy kill. It hits Tenta, Ferrothorn and Tornadus-T hard too.
I use:
Dugtrio@Focus Sash
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Adamant
-EQ
-Stone Edge
-Sucker Punch
-Reversal

EDIT:Thanks for answering. I should have seen Steel coming from a mile away.
 
A lot of words have been said about Sun and Rain sweepers. What about sand? Has it been limited to Landorus,Stoutland, and Acrobat Gliscor. These being the most noteworthy and also among the few. As many other Pokemon do not benefit from boosts, take passive damage, or carry the power upright; meanwhile Rain along with Sun have a more flexible atomosphere for numerous of Pokemon to frolic. In short has Sand been left with a short hand limit of options?
 
There is a simple explanation to that issue. Sun and Rain are much more relaible because much more concentraion and skill is needed to win a battle with a good sand and good hail team than a good sun and good rain team. Also, it is much easier to counter sand than rain and sun.
That's why i asked what do you use to counter rain teams.
 
If you're looking for answers for Rain Teams, running something as simple as Specs Keldeo is enough to apply a lot of offensive pressure on a Rain Team. I've been running a Specs Keldeo / Choice Band Terrakion together, and the two work together by being able to 2HKO every member of common Rain and Sand Teams. Honestly, if you're wanting to beat Rain, then the most simple answer would be to carry your own Rain abusers. Offensive Rain Teams have very little to switch in to something like Keldeo, meaning it has the potential to grab a kill every time it switches in. Of course, don't just limit yourself to Keldeo. Thundurus-T, Tornadus-T, Tornadus-I and Kingdra are all Pokemon that love Rain support and fit on just about any type of team archetype.
 
Ricky Horror said:
A lot of words have been said about Sun and Rain sweepers. What about sand? Has it been limited to Landorus,Stoutland, and Acrobat Gliscor. These being the most noteworthy and also among the few. As many other Pokemon do not benefit from boosts, take passive damage, or carry the power upright; meanwhile Rain along with Sun have a more flexible atomosphere for numerous of Pokemon to frolic. In short has Sand been left with a short hand limit of options?
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nah, not in the slightest. let's not forget that rock-types, namely tyranitar and big boy terrakion, get a 1.5x sdef boost in the sand, which is what makes ttar worth using as a special wall, and also what makes terrakion so deadly - lets it set up on a lot more stuff without fear of getting ohko'd.

there's also landorus, a huge threat even without its ability sand force, giving it an extra 1.3x power boost to its ground stab in sandstorm. the difference in damage should never go ignored - it makes more of an impact than you might assume.

finally, we still have the sand rushers, stoutland and sandslash. while their great mentor excadrill has been banished to the depths of the uber tier (and may he rest in peace), the big doggy is a fantastic choice band user, hitting hard as a truck with 518 speed in sand, while sandslash still makes an excellent swords dance sweeper and rapid spin user, despite its mediocre stats.

no, i don't think sand is out for the count. it's definitely being used less, due to all the new toys rain and sun are getting to play with, but i think when all the tornadus-t madness dies down you'll see that sand is still a balanced and solid playstyle that has plenty of things to abuse.

free excadrill. thank you.

edit @ jimbon: double choiced musketeers is a great offensive core, and just like you said, it puts a great amount of pressure on both rain and sand teams to keep up with the big hits specs keldeo and cb terrakion dish out! and yeah specs kingdra is actually super viable in this metagame due to all the rain offense, a specs stab rain boosted surf 2hkos sdef jirachi who is rain's main special check these days.
 
That is a good idea. I've never tried to use rain abusers because you may know i onlu play with balanced teams. I just hate weather.
I usually use breloom,amoonguss and gastrodon as counters or a Taunt Pokemon. The only problem is when i dont have a grass-typed pokemon on my team i dont have a secure lead against Polited. That, actually, was the only problem, not rain teams as a whole.
 
Ricky Horror said:
A lot of words have been said about Sun and Rain sweepers. What about sand? Has it been limited to Landorus,Stoutland, and Acrobat Gliscor. These being the most noteworthy and also among the few. As many other Pokemon do not benefit from boosts, take passive damage, or carry the power upright; meanwhile Rain along with Sun have a more flexible atomosphere for numerous of Pokemon to frolic. In short has Sand been left with a short hand limit of options?
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In terms of new toys to play with in BW2, you could say that sand teams got shafted a little, although Sand Rush Sandslash is a thing now and works pretty well. The thing is that to function as a sweeper on a sand team, you don't necessarily need an offensive boost from it. Look at Terrakion and Reuniclus for example. Neither of them get anything in the way of offense from sand being up, but are still used fairly commonly on sand offense. This is because neither take sandstorm damage(Terrakion gets a spec. defense boost as well), and that they have good synergy with other pokemon on sand teams. Terrakion is obviously very threatening with it's high attack and deadly STABs, and can be used to form a sort of 1-2 punch with other sweepers such as Landorus. Reuiniclus resists Tyranitar's fighting weakness and can decimate stall.
 
on a slight tangent away from the current discussion, does anybody have thoughts about the use of keldeo on sand teams? keldeo is most often spotted in the rain, as that's where it gets a 1.5x power boost for its primary stab, but it can also function as a fantastic general rain check for sand teams. plus, as jimbon mentioned, it performs excellently together with terrakion.
 
Lavos Spawn said:
nah, not in the slightest. let's not forget that rock-types, namely tyranitar and big boy terrakion, get a 1.5x sdef boost in the sand, which is what makes ttar worth using as a special wall, and also what makes terrakion so deadly - lets it set up on a lot more stuff without fear of getting ohko'd.

there's also landorus, a huge threat even without its ability sand force, giving it an extra 1.3x power boost to its ground stab in sandstorm. the difference in damage should never go ignored - it makes more of an impact than you might assume.

finally, we still have the sand rushers, stoutland and sandslash. while their great mentor excadrill has been banished to the depths of the uber tier (and may he rest in peace), the big doggy is a fantastic choice band user, hitting hard as a truck with 518 speed in sand, while sandslash still makes an excellent swords dance sweeper and rapid spin user, despite its mediocre stats.

no, i don't think sand is out for the count. it's definitely being used less, due to all the new toys rain and sun are getting to play with, but i think when all the tornadus-t madness dies down you'll see that sand is still a balanced and solid playstyle that has plenty of things to abuse.

free excadrill. thank you.

edit @ jimbon: double choiced musketeers is a great offensive core, and just like you said, it puts a great amount of pressure on both rain and sand teams to keep up with the big hits specs keldeo and cb terrakion dish out! and yeah specs kingdra is actually super viable in this metagame due to all the rain offense, a specs stab rain boosted surf 2hkos sdef jirachi who is rain's main special check these days.
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Ah, yes I forgot Terrakion. As for Sandslash it mediocre at best in my eyes.
 
Terrakion,Keldeo along with Reuniclus and maybe skarmory or forretress on a sand team would actually make good combo. As they have a nearly perfect synergy.
We could also add a Stoutland or Landorus and we have a team. LOL
 
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