BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Harlot]

If you're thinking of using a scarf set to check dragons, there are just better choices that don't get outsped by other scarfers with and with better typing (e g Genesect and rotom-W).

scarf terrakion outruns both genesect and rotom-w fyi so this argument is rather invalid

 

[Sewa]

scarf terrakion outruns both genesect and rotom-w fyi so this argument is rather invalid

And also they're both outsped by common +1 dragons, like scarf lati@s, DD or scarf Mence and (when it'll become OU) salac/scarf Chomp. Rotom is even outsped by DD Haxorus and ScarfDreigon

 

[Zacchaeus]

Please name a physical wall that reliably beats Choice Band or SD Rock Gem Terrakion.

Golurk
252 +2 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs 252 HP/0 Def Golurk: 51.05% - 60.47%
252 Atk Golurk (+Atk) Earthquake vs 4 HP/0 Def Terrakion: 117.59% - 138.89%

Nidoqueen
252 +2 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs 252 HP/0 Def Nidoqueen: 57.03% - 67.19%
252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Terrakion: 117.59% - 137.96%

Nidoking
252 +2 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs 4 HP/0 Def Nidoking: 79.61% - 93.75%
252 SpAtk Life Orb Nidoking Earth Power vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Terrakion: 98.15% - 114.81%

Toxicroak
252 +2 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs 252 HP/0 Def Toxicroak: 74.59% - 88.11%
252 Atk Toxicroak (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 4 HP/0 Def Terrakion: 78.7% - 93.52%
252 Atk Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 4 HP/0 Def Terrakion: 13.89% - 16.67%

So 1 on 1, Golurk and Nidoqueen always win. Nidoking should win, and Toxicroak has a chance but I wouldn't count on it, especially in the event that you get 2 low damage rolls and end up against a Justified low health Terrakion. Toxicroak and Nidoking would both probably lose to a +2 Rock Gem Stone Edge

 

[3v3rnoob]

Honestly, Gliscor OU defensive sub beats Terrakion straight out.

This is Gliscor with 252 HP, 184 Def, Impish nature (+Def -SpAtk)
Stone Edge: 159-187 (44.91 - 52.82%)
Close Combat: 26.55 - 31.35%
Sacred Sword: 20.05 - 23.72%
X-Scissor: 11.86 - 14.12%

In other words, Gliscor can switch in whenever it wants and force out Terrakion with EQ.

 

[Bossness]

^nitpicking but Nidoking always wins. You forgot to factor in Sheer Force when doing the calculation.
252Atk Rock Gem +2 Terrakion (Neutral) Stone Edge vs 4HP/0Def Nidoking (Neutral): 99% - 117% (302 - 356 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 96% chance to OHKO.
252SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking (Neutral) Earth Power vs 4HP/0SpDef Terrakion (Neutral): 125% - 148% (408 - 482 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
Scarf Nidoking can outspeed and OHKO
252SpAtk Sheer Force Nidoking (Neutral) Earth Power vs 4HP/0SpDef Terrakion (Neutral): 96% - 114% (314 - 372 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 82% chance to OHKO.

EDIT: Gliscor does not beat SubSD Terrakion. Here is why:
252Atk Rock Gem +2 Terrakion (Neutral) Stone Edge vs 252HP/184Def Leftovers Gliscor (+Def): 88% - 105% (315 - 372 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 31% chance to OHKO.
0Atk Gliscor (Neutral) Earthquake vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Terrakion (Neutral): 69% - 82% (224 - 266 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

So only Golurk, Nidoqueen and Scarf Nidoking beat Terrakion 1vs1.
Edit 2: @PenguinX, the onsite Golurk is eved to avoid the 2hko from CB Earthquake and KO back with Earthquake.
EDIt 2: @ PenguinX again....Golurk is the only counter for real. It actually works. Look at edit 2. It beats every Terrakion set and this isn't a joke. Go check out the analysis maybe? And please only assume SR please. We would actually have to rewrite alot of the checks and counters section if we assumed SR and spikes.
252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (Neutral) Earthquake vs 252HP/176Def Leftovers Golurk (+Def): 38% - 45% (146 - 172 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
252Atk Rock Gem +2 Terrakion (Neutral) Stone Edge vs 252HP/176Def Klutz Golurk (+Def): 56% - 67% (217 - 256 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Leftovers prevents the KO from choice band while in return,
80Atk Iron Fist Golurk (Neutral) Earthquake vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Terrakion (Neutral): 94% - 111% (306 - 360 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 66% chance to OHKO. Guaranteed KO with SR.
http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/golurk/ou
Note that Golurk isnt KOed by +2 Rock Gem Stone Edge even with 3 layers of spikes and SR.

 

[peng]

252 Atk +2 Rock Gem Stone Edge vs 252 HP / 0 Def Adamant Golurk
293-345 (76.7 - 90.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Pocket EDIT: actually Terrakion loses in this match, because Golurk OHKOs with EQ
EDIT 3: Hi Pocket, taking 97% from an attack from terrakion is hardly a reliable counter given its spikes susceptible already but okay, technically Golurk counters Terrakion assuming only SR but in practice you need to be at 96% HP or higher not to get OHKOd; I certainly wouldn't rely on that.

252 Atk Choice Band Earthquake vs 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Nidoqueen
256-302 (66.66 - 78.64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I'm actually pretty sure CB Earthquake 2HKOs Golurk too now that I think about it but I cba to calc now. 1v1 Golurk and Nidoqueen both win, but that doesn't make them counters.

EDIT @ whoever brought up Gliscor

252 Atk +2 Rock Gem Stone Edge vs 252 HP / 184 Def Impish Gliscor (i.e. most defensive Glisc you will ever see)
315-372 (88.98 - 105.08%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, still a decent chance to OHKO when factoring Poison Heal

EDIT 2 @ whoever brought up Nidoking

252 Atk +2 Rock Gem Stone Edge vs 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Nidoking
301-354 (99.33 - 116.83%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Only Choice Scarf "beats" Terrakion because it'll outspeed as it SDs / Stone Edges at +0 but it still loses to EQ on the Choice Band set.

FINAL EDIT: Actually with all these calcs I completely forgot the context of this entire post. I was replying to someone that said CB Terrakion is bad in BW2 OU because it loses to common physical walls. All the "counters" people have used as rebuttal aren't even common anyway so the point still stands. Terrakion only being able to hit Golurk for 90% at +2 doesn't mean Terrakion is bad in OU lol, who even uses Golurk? (also the reason that shit like Golurk isn't common is because even though it beats Terrakion on paper, in practice it just doesn't. If Golurk was a good answer to Terrakion we'd be seeing much much more of it than we currently do.) I'm not trying to put across that Terrakion is overpowered or anything, I just wanted to point out that Terrakion does not lose to common OU walls as 3v3rnoob was claiming.

 

[3v3rnoob]

scarf terrakion outruns both genesect and rotom-w fyi so this argument is rather invalid

:evan:

That's rather silly. Whether scarfers outspeed each other is irrelevant when comparing them. What makes a scarfer good is its ability to check threats, stop sweeps, outspeed other pokemon, provide utility after switching in (usually through type coverage), and switch into things. The actual speed of the scarfer matters, but it's not the only thing. For example, take Rotom-W. It's not terribly fast in the OU metagame, but it can be used with a scarf. Why is that? The answer: Rotom has great type coverage and decent bulk. With a scarf, rotom can revenge kill Tornadus, Landorus, check Thundurus, outspeed Mence and Dragonite, and switch into bulky waters with impunity. Given access to trick, rotom can subsequently wreck those walls as well.

Tl;dr A pokemon's speed alone usually doesn't determine it's effectiveness with a choice scarf.

 

[bubbly]

^Guys are forgetting Claydol as well.

By the way, has anyone else seen a ridiculous number of Hail teams on the ladder lately? It's odd, because they aren't anywhere near as anti-meta as they used to be; it's like people are only just starting to catch on.

 

[Harlot]

:evan:

That's rather silly. Whether scarfers outspeed each other is irrelevant when comparing them. What makes a scarfer good is its ability to check threats, stop sweeps, outspeed other pokemon, provide utility after switching in (usually through type coverage), and switch into things. The actual speed of the scarfer matters, but it's not the only thing. For example, take Rotom-W. It's not terribly fast in the OU metagame, but it can be used with a scarf. Why is that? The answer: Rotom has great type coverage and decent bulk. With a scarf, rotom can revenge kill Tornadus, Landorus, check Thundurus, outspeed Mence and Dragonite, and switch into bulky waters with impunity. Given access to trick, rotom can subsequently wreck those walls as well.

Tl;dr A pokemon's speed alone usually doesn't determine it's effectiveness with a choice scarf.

hahaha oh god what

taken straight from your post:

If you're thinking of using a scarf set to check dragons, there are just better choices that don't get outsped by other scarfers

 

[3v3rnoob]

Well, my apologies then. I forgot what Terrakion's base speed was.

 

[Sewa]

:evan:

That's rather silly. Whether scarfers outspeed each other is irrelevant when comparing them. What makes a scarfer good is its ability to check threats, stop sweeps, outspeed other pokemon, provide utility after switching in (usually through type coverage), and switch into things. The actual speed of the scarfer matters, but it's not the only thing. For example, take Rotom-W. It's not terribly fast in the OU metagame, but it can be used with a scarf. Why is that? The answer: Rotom has great type coverage and decent bulk. With a scarf, rotom can revenge kill Tornadus, Landorus, check Thundurus, outspeed Mence and Dragonite, and switch into bulky waters with impunity. Given access to trick, rotom can subsequently wreck those walls as well.

Tl;dr A pokemon's speed alone usually doesn't determine it's effectiveness with a choice scarf.

The problem stays the same: standard DDmence outspeeds and OHKOes both Rotom-W and Genesect

+1 Outrage vs 4/0 Rotom-W: 285-336 (117.76 - 138.84%)
Fire Blast vs 0/0 Hasty Genesect: 392-464 (138.51 - 163.95%)

 

[magicc]

all of those special checks to Terrakion like Nidoking and such fail out in sand.

 

[Zacchaeus]

EDIT 3: Hi Pocket, taking 97% from an attack from terrakion is hardly a reliable counter given its spikes susceptible already but okay, technically Golurk counters Terrakion assuming only SR but in practice you need to be at 96% HP or higher not to get OHKOd; I certainly wouldn't rely on that.

You asked what can wall Terrakion and beat it, I made the distinction between "beating" Terrakion and "countering" it. The answer would've been completely different if you asked "What viable OU Pokémon can counter Terrakion?"

Terrakion only being able to hit Golurk for 90% at +2 doesn't mean Terrakion is bad in OU lol, who even uses Golurk?

Nobody said Terrakion is bad, and hardly anyone uses Golurk. But a Pokémon being in a lower tier and having low usage rates doesn't mean that you can assume that it isn't a problem. Bronzong can wall a number of sets in OU and people hardly fail to mention that it does, but is Bronzong OU? No, is Bronzong commonly used? No, but it still does the job and it still is possible to use or have used against you.

(also the reason that shit like Golurk isn't common is because even though it beats Terrakion on paper, in practice it just doesn't. If Golurk was a good answer to Terrakion we'd be seeing much much more of it than we currently do.)

It still does in practice without prior damage, but Golurk has very few uses in OU besides countering Terrakion or Jirachi (without Water Pulse) and Golurk definitely won't have much use after a full fight with either Terrakion or Jirachi. So most people would use Gliscor and Scizor and hope to beat SD Terrakion than use Golurk and have dead weight in the event that Terrakion or Jirachi don't show up

 

[tehy]

I find it funny how at the top, a guy asked what physical walls could beat terrakion, and everyone responded with a bunch of offensive pokemon, totally missing the point, being that, generally, no one's going to be using golurk or nidoking on a stall team, generally where walls are found. I guess rainstall might use toxicroak, MIGHT, and nidoqueen's a super-nichey option, but honestly, none of that even matters. Double dance terrakion is a beast, luckily people are using that lulzy subdancer set and my hippowdon just roars away the subs as i wear it down.

Oh yeah, and being able to force out an enemy scarfer with your scarfer/not having your scarfer forced out by theirs is actually kind of important, being the difference between being lategame swept and lategame sweeping. Not to mention that volcarona slaughters those two, a much more commong threat than DDmence these days.

And sandslash, again:The point wasn't that it can be offensively checked, because then we could just bring in stuff that can take a hit and OHKO back, like bandzor. The point was to say, what walls can really beat this. And the answer's nothing, terrakion can only be beaten by prediction-none of those checks can take either two hits on the switchin, or one hit and then an SD'D hit. I guess rain toxicroak is the closest you can get, since it has reliable recovery.

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

Please name a physical wall that reliably beats [...] SD Rock Gem Terrakion.

Not technically a wall but...

Offensive Sandslash comes in as it SD's, outspeeds and OHKOes (sand rush active ofc).

If Terrakion subbed / attacked instead, Slash can take an unboosted CC / SE while breaking the sub.

+0 Close Combat: 180-213 (50.84 - 60.16%)
+0 Stone Edge: 112-132 (31.63 - 37.28%)

 

[dice]

Golurk's spread is 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Def, with an Impish nature, not just 252 HP; therefore, Golurk is definitely a counter versus Terrakion utilizing Rock Gem and Swords Dance.

252Atk Rock Gem +2 Terrakion (Neutral) Stone Edge vs 252HP/176Def Leftovers Golurk (+Def): 56% - 67% (217 - 256 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Even though it lacks reliable recovery, I still do think it is a counter just because of how easily it tanks every attack Terrakion throws at it. The check/counter argument isn't worth having.

 

[peng]

@ Zacchaeus, this is the post I was replying to:

I suppose then that I should rephrase. I don't think that the modern metagame is very hospitable to Terrakion, especially the scarf sets. There are a lot of ghosts and physical walls that can take 2/4 of your moves, which is not good news for scarfed OR banded sets.

He claimed the new metagame wasn't good for CB Terrakion because of Ghost-types and Physical walls, which simply isn't true. I dunno why Golurk popped up; when I asked him to name a counter to Terrakion I was doing it to make a point, I didn't want people to actually scour the depths of UU / RU / NU to find some mediocre mons that can "beat" Terrakion on paper.

I guess I should stop being condescending and asking rhetorical questions, and actually say something about Terrakion then 9.9

Terrakion is still a top OU Pokemon, and deserves far more usage than it is currently getting. BW2 has nerfed it ever so slightly, but it has nothing to do with Ghost-types or Physical walls. Its more the fact that its facing competition from stuff like Breloom and (to an extent) Keldeo. Rain being incredibly popular doesn't really help either, as Terrakion finds next to no oppurtunities to switch-in on stuff like Politoed, Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, Mamoswine, Starmie, Keldeo, Breloom etc. Dugtrio is really popular atm on Sun and Rain alike too, and as soon as you see it in Team Preview you are pretty much restricted to a single KO with Terrakion maximum, unless they sac Dugtrio for whatever reason. In the same vein, Scarf Gothitelle can pretty easily dispatch of Terrakion with Psyshock.

I really thought CB Terrakion usage would rocket after Genesect's release since its one of the very few good offensive checks to it, but that doesn't really seem to have been the case.

And thanks for clearing that up Bri, that spread definitely seems more sensible than 252 HP / 0 Def. I just used that spread for calcs because it was what Zacchaeus had used. I'll agree that Impish Golurk does counter Terrakion, but 0 Def is definitely not reliable. I'd still never use Golurk full stop but w/e

Can we stop talking about Golurk now, its so bad.

 

[ginganinja]

You guys are also prolly forgetting Landorus-T, which is a pretty solid switch in to most Terrakion sets, casually knocking it down -1 switching in, and forcing Terrakion out with Earthquake, while also threatening to set up Stealth Rock, or U-Turn out to preserve momentium if it predicts a switch. I never really did calculations, but Landorus-T always did a fine job at checking Terrakion on my teams, and was an excellent switch in to it in general.

 

[Boondocker]

You guys are also prolly forgetting Landorus-T, which is a pretty solid switch in to most Terrakion sets, casually knocking it down -1 switching in, and forcing Terrakion out with Earthquake, while also threatening to set up Stealth Rock, or U-Turn out to preserve momentium if it predicts a switch. I never really did calculations, but Landorus-T always did a fine job at checking Terrakion on my teams, and was an excellent switch in to it in general.

I use a Life Orb set of CC/Stone Edge/HP Ice/X-Scizor to take advantage of all the Landerous and Gliscors who think they can wall me. It almost always gets the ko against them since so many teams rely on them to counter Terra

 

[Skore]

You guys are also prolly forgetting Landorus-T, which is a pretty solid switch in to most Terrakion sets, casually knocking it down -1 switching in, and forcing Terrakion out with Earthquake, while also threatening to set up Stealth Rock, or U-Turn out to preserve momentium if it predicts a switch. I never really did calculations, but Landorus-T always did a fine job at checking Terrakion on my teams, and was an excellent switch in to it in general.

Which Lando set do you run? I've tried various ones and he's always my go-to guy for Terrakion but unless I invest in physical bulk Terrakion always gets the 2HKO with Stone Edge if it predicts right.

I have had more success checking Terrakion with a scarfed variant that invests in enough speed to outspeed non-scarfed Jolly Terrakion which also makes it much better at tanking Stone Edges if required:

252Atk Life Orb -1 Terrakion (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Landorus Therian (+Def): 31% - 36% (120 - 141 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

The damage taken drops down to 28% if Terrakion is scarfed and a Life Orbed Close Combat does a max 21% at -1

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 56 Spd / 252 Atk / 200 HP
Naughty Nature
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power [Ice]

 

[ginganinja]

Which Lando set do you run?

Offensive Pivot set, which is just nice as a catch all check to most physical sweepers out there, as well as giving me Stealth Rock. Its a fine set, and sorta underrated. Sure, it lacks instant recovery, but I personally havn't had too many problems with that lack of instant recovery, its pretty good enough to check opposing physical threats enough for me to implement my game plan, and set up a sweep or whatever.

EDIT

And yea, HP Ice Terrakion beats it, but we were discussing SD / CB sets, not random sets with HP Ice

 

[PttP]

Which Lando set do you run? I've tried various ones and he's always my go-to guy for Terrakion but unless I invest in physical bulk Terrakion always gets the 2HKO with Stone Edge if it predicts right.

I have had more success checking Terrakion with a scarfed variant that invests in enough speed to outspeed non-scarfed Jolly Terrakion which also makes it much better at tanking Stone Edges if required:

252Atk Life Orb -1 Terrakion (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Landorus Therian (+Def): 31% - 36% (120 - 141 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

The damage taken drops down to 28% if Terrakion is scarfed and a Life Orbed Close Combat does a max 21% at -1

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 56 Spd / 252 Atk / 200 HP
Naughty Nature
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Although i dont really approve of the set in general, you should really invest a bit more speed to outrun latios as firing off strong u-turns will put a major dent in it. i would personally run enough to outspeed tornadus-t since its quite a threat but another useful benchmark is outspeeding starmie. you should at the very least invest to beat latios though, i doubt the bulk loss is noticable while getting outrun will always be noticed

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I use a Life Orb set of CC/Stone Edge/HP Ice/X-Scizor to take advantage of all the Landerous and Gliscors who think they can wall me. It almost always gets the ko against them since so many teams rely on them to counter Terra

Lol, but Hidden Power Ice doesn't OHKO neither Landorus-T nor Gliscor and Terrakion is at risk of being hit by Earthquake.

0 SpAtk Life Orb Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Gliscor: 72,32% - 84,75%
Entry hazards damage: 44
After entry hazards: 300 - 344 (84,75% - 97,18%)
2 hits to KO

0 SpAtk Life Orb Terrakion Hidden Power Ice vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Landorus-T: 63,87% - 75,39%
Entry hazards damage: 47
After entry hazards: 291 - 335 (76,18% - 87,7%)
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

Neither of them are OHKOed even after Stealth Rock. So, these random sets with HP Ice don't work. These calculations assume a Naive nature and no investiment in SpA, since if you are going to invest SpA just to power up HP Ice to KO these things, you are better off using an actual check to Landorus-T and Gliscor.

EDIT: Sure that you can predict them switching and then you can outspeed and KO... Still, you are better off using a Water-type to check them. Relying on prediction is not the wisest thing to do.

 

[Ricky Horror]

I think the reason Terrakion isn't being used is Dugtrio+Genesect. I've been playing with Tyranitar+Terrakion and shit gets destroyed by Genesect, cant afford to Heatran as that will be three liabilities for Dugtrio to take advantage of, hating that pistol loaded bug...

 

[alkinesthetase]

^ shed shell heatran works well on stall, scarf heatran or flame charge works well on balanced for countering sectrio core. i see what you mean though, dugtrio messes a lot of shit up. my chansey lives in fear of it (fffing EQ crits)

as for scarfrak, i don't see why it would be considered a bad scarfer right now. it checks a crapton of things, especially mons that cannot be countered like +1 mence and danced volc (who basically have the coverage to kill anything and can only be checked... by mons like rak). it's not perfect, and there are big competitors (cough genesect cough cough cough oh god my cough stall team why), but rak's good speed tier and stab are great. i mean we've known this to be true since bw1. life gets harder for every mon whenever a challenger appears, but niches don't get smaller as a result, and terrakion has a big enough niche that it can't really be called a niche lol.