BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Myzozoa]

The popularity of Choice Band Terrakion and SD Terrakion has very little bearing on the viability of Scarf Terrakion. Saying "it does not need more speed at base 108" just makes me question if you even know what Scarf Terrakion is meant to do lol

Of course it has a bearing, you can only use one Terrakion on a team. So if CB and SD are being used to the exclusion of Scarf, it indicates something about the strength and utility of those sets.

Terrakion has multiple advantages over Landorus. ExtremeSpeed resistance means its a better answer to DDnite. Fire-type resistance means its better vs Volcarona. The extra speed means it can outspeed Modest Venusaur (admittedly not as relevant anymore), Stoutland, and Scarf Garchomp. It has better coverage with its STABs: Stone Edge and Close Combat are both harder to set-up on than Hidden Power [Ice], which Landorus often relies on for much of its revenge-killing. The loss of U-Turn does suck, but not everyone is using Deoxys-D offense / volt-turn, myzozoa!

You don't get to reject my argument just by saying "LOL myzozoa, ur so one dimensional with your volt-turn shenanigans." Good pokemon have a lot of utility, they give you, the player, more options and more ways to win. If your Scarf pokemon doesn't have Pursuit, U-Turn, or Trick not only is it a sitting duck against stall teams, balanced and offensive teams w/ bulk are just going to laugh at your attempts to revenge kill as they switch out to something that resists the unboosted hit. If you had U-turn, Trick, or Pursuit, you could break down their team rather than losing momentum and giving away advantages.

Terrakion outruns Scarf chomp? Okay dude, it outruns another bad scarfer (and it can't ko it), wtf is your point? Venusaur, cool dude, you can't even come close to a KO. I would say that Landorus is fine against Volcarona, but if it isn't, in the sun Terrakion is also awful against it, same thing goes in the rain against Hurricane Volc. Lastly, since Terrakion is never switching into Dragonite, you still have to lure outrages and then get in and Rockslide, which is exactly what Landorus has to do too (only with hp ice).

I'll tell you a secret, don't tell anyone else though: I wouldn't use Scarf Terrakion or Scarf Landorus on a Volt-turn team. This is because Volt-turn doesn't need any revenge killers other than Scizor.

 

[peng]

Of course it has a bearing, you can only use one Terrakion on a team. So if CB and SD are being used to the exclusion of Scarf, it indicates something about the strength and utility of those sets.

As if anyone has ever been teambuilding and thought "ScarfTerrakion would be so good here but DAMN I already have CBTerrakion!"

You don't get to reject my argument just by saying "LOL myzozoa, ur so one dimensional with your volt-turn shenanigans." Good pokemon have a lot of utility, they give you, the player, more options and more ways to win. If your Scarf pokemon doesn't have Pursuit, U-Turn, or Trick not only is it a sitting duck against stall teams, balanced and offensive teams w/ bulk are just going to laugh at your attempts to revenge kill as they switch out to something that resists the unboosted hit. If you had U-turn, Trick, or Pursuit, you could break down their team rather than losing momentum and giving away advantages.

I largely agree with this, but not to the extent that every Choice scarfer needs U-Turn / Trick / Pursuit to be effective, especially not in a meta where stall is almost non-existant already.

Terrakion outruns Scarf chomp? Okay dude, it outruns another bad scarfer, wtf is your point? Venusaur, cool dude, you can't even come close to a KO. I would say that Landorus is fine against Volcarona, but if it isn't, in the sun Terrakion is also awful against it, same thing goes in the rain against Hurricane Volc. Lastly, since Terrakion is never switching into Dragonite, you still have to lure outrages and then get in and Rockslide, which is exactly what Landorus has to do too (only with hp ice).

Okay, Garchomp is a terrible scarfer because it doesn't have U-Turn, Trick or Pursuit. I get it.

Hitting Venusaur for at least some damage is better than just being outsped.

Terrakion doesn't need to bait Outrages, you can still sac something to a Fire Punch and revenge with Stone Edge. If you sac something to Fire Punch and try to revenge-kill with Landorus you're gonna be taking a lot from +1 ExtremeSpeed.

I'll tell you a secret, don't tell anyone else though: I wouldn't use Scarf Terrakion or Scarf Landorus on a Volt-turn team. This is because Volt-turn doesn't need any revenge killers other than Scizor.

Yes, every Pokemon in the game is clearly weak to Bullet Punch. How foolish of me.
Garchomp, cool dude, you can't even come close to a KO.
Keldeo, cool dude, you can't even come close to a KO.
Genesect, cool dude, you can't even come close to a KO.

 

[dragonuser]

Interesting sets PKGaming. I would agree that Haxorus is good, reason I stated he wouldn't drop into UU or BL2 or anything. I was just saying that out of the top dragons, Haxorus is the most likely to drop in some usage (which is the question I was responding to). Him having higher usage in a chomp meta is rather interesting, however that may of been due to the Scarf Dual Chop set that people were trying to run to better handle Sand Veil Garchomp. I was thinking about a pool of dragons including, Haxorus, Dragonite, Salamence, Latios, Latias, and Hydreigon. Out of these Pokemon I would argue that Garchomp usurps Haxorus the most, as it can also run strong Swords Dance sets. Garchomp can also benefit from weathers, by using Aqua Tail/Fire Fang, much like what Haxorus tries to abuse. Haxorus probably stands apart from the other Dragon-Types in OU because of Superpower, as with a Fight Gem and a +2 boost, he can threaten any variant of Skarmory for the KO. I am really interested to see if Haxorus's raw power will warrant him use over Garchomp's Speed and STABs in this new metagame. Guess only time will tell.

 

[alexwolf]

I'm not sure what you guys are going on about saying that Genesect beats every team with the right set and coverage moves, because Chansey tanks a CB U-Turn and recovers it off... And if you run HP Ground you're either losing U-Turn or a valuable coverage move, so while Heatran no longer beats it something else will. Rotom-H resists everything it commonly uses but Zen Headbutt. Snorlax (not that I am advocating you use it) smacks it with Fire Punch while tanking its attacks. Anything with Substitute and a Fire move either forces your opponent to expose something else to the line of fire or breaks the Substitute and lets Genesect get OHKO'd.

It's annoying, sure, but not hard to beat.

Chansey is a shitty answer to Gensect, because of SR + U-turn. Why bring Chansey in Gensect? To lose 35% health and get forced out? Many strong special attackers can now 2hko a 65% health Chansey, and you did zero things to stop Genesect. The only pokes that are really capable of stopping/countering Gensect are pokes that take almost nothing from U-turn and fear nothing from the other moves. This way even if Genesect spams U-turn, you can simply wear him down with SR, while losing almost no life from U-turn. But what pokes can do this? Amoonguss, Heatran, and Rotom-H. And i am talking about only Scarf Genesect right now, because EB Genesect can fuck up both Amoonguss and Heatran.

You also said that you can't see how a team can be weak to Genesect without already being bad. Being weak to Genesect doesn't mean that every poke in your team gets OHKOed from it, or that nothing can check it. If you don't have a Rotom-H, Heatran or Amoonguss you are potentially weak to Scarf Genesect. Because it is almost sure that Genesect will be able to threaten at least half of your team, and will start U-turning the fuck out. And then starts the volt-turn chain, and good luck stopping it. Yeah it is possible, but it takes too much effort for such a simple minded strategy. Not to mention the strain it puts in teambuilding.

tl;dr Rotom-H save us from the wrath of Genesect!

 

[yee]

I wouldn't say Genesect puts strain in teambuilding, because there's good options for dealing with it. It just limits your options horribly- you can lead with SR Terrakion / Dug-immune Heatran / Tanga Deo-D / Pain Split Rotom-W but not much else I can think of. Rotom-H I wouldn't touch at all unless I had a Hail team and couldn't throw on Latias / Heatran / Terrakion to beat Sun and check Genesect.

Also to clear up Arcticblast's post he meant Chansey vs. Genesect one on one matchup- not switching it in trying to counter it.

 

[StairFall]

I find genesect's best set to be EB, having all that coverage and only spamming u-turn is a huge waste and RP is no good because you absolutely need the fire+ice+electric+Stab combo going on.

Also I recently started running Garchomp and Salamence together on an HO team. They have almost the same checks and counters so chomp roughs up everyone and then mence can come in with scarf+moxie and outrage everything to death. hazards take up off to 50% from some pokemon making the job a lot easier. It makes it really clear that Chomp is an amazing wallbreaker and that Mence is a great cleaner.

 

[Lavos]

I recently started running Garchomp and Salamence together on an HO team. They have almost the same checks and counters so chomp roughs up everyone and then mence can come in with scarf+moxie and outrage everything to death. hazards take up off to 50% from some pokemon making the job a lot easier. It makes it really clear that Chomp is an amazing wallbreaker and that Mence is a great cleaner.

How exactly does Garchomp "rough up" hard defensive walls like Skarmory and Slowbro? And how does ScarfMence come in and "outrage everything to death"? In my opinion, Garchomp and Salamence don't make great partners, they make awful partners. Garchomp is meant to bait Genesect, then kill it after it survives Ice Beam due to Yache Berry. Salamence just outspeeds and OHKOs Genesect. Chomp isn't supposed to break through walls, and neither is ScarfMence. I really don't see any synergy here - and it doesn't help that they're both 4x Ice weak. I'm interested to see how the rest of your team deals with defensive walls such as Skarmory, as well as offensive priority users such as Mamoswine. If you can remove these Pokemon, then sure, I could see Chomp + Mence doing some work, but not until then.

By the way, if Chomp's job is to be a SD user that roughs up walls and threats to Salamence, why not try a SD Haxorus instead? With the brute strength that comes with 147 base Attack and access to much better coverage moves than Garchomp, it would be a good replacement.

 

[MetaGross66]

Uh, he could be using mixchomp to bait Skarmory. It's not completely implausible. Also, EB Gene is just incredible. It almost singlehandedly picks apart stall if you can get rid of hazards/prevent them from getting down.

tbh, I feel like Stall has almost no place in this metagame. I think that's somewhat of an unhealthy sign. :/

 

[Lavos]

Uh, he could be using mixchomp to bait Skarmory. It's not completely implausible. Also, EB Gene is just incredible. It almost singlehandedly picks apart stall if you can get rid of hazards/prevent them from getting down.

MixChomp is really bad, and loses to a ton of other things that SD Chomp doesn't lose to. Ok, it beats Skarmory on a good day. However, since Chomp's SAtk is pretty awful, you need to invest in the stat, meaning you lose Attack power. This means you're still losing to Slowbro, and now you're not even going to be able to break through Politoed, which is laughable.

How does EBelt Genesect "pick apart stall"? Chansey hard walls it...

 

[MetaGross66]

The fact that it's so unpredictable with U-turn and its coverage, and send in lol chansey to have it crippled by Specs/Scarf Gothitelle. It'll definitely be walling Genesect then.

Also, Yache mixchomp doesn't seem that bad. Yeah, its speed isn't up to par this generation, but its bulk more than makes up for it. You'll likely get a kill with it. My point is, there are many ways Garchomp can get around Bronzong and Skarmory. It isn't restricted to one set as you make it seem. For all you know he could be using LO SD Fire Fang... If you say SDchomp is bad, then what Chomp set is good? Also, if it beats skarmory it did its job. That's all that really needs to be said. Doesn't matter if it's "bad".

I'm seriously considering using a bulky rocky helm chomp with SR and Dragon tail just to see how it will fare in this meta. Seems like it could work. Then again, most spinners beat it... :/

 

[alkinesthetase]

i haven't been paying much attention to this thread in the past few days (xcom), but i would definitely agree that ebelt genesect is a bigger problem for stall than scarf. it's true that chansey can take on genesect, but really genesect should be uturning anyway against stall - its special coverage is not strong without the SE hits and you won't often want to be making such a prediction against stall. that means chansey eats the uturn (admittedly not for a ton), and now has to stare down something that can probably go toe to toe with it, because if you're gonna uturn on the chansey, obviously you're gonna switch to something that forces it out. you probably will not have the time to heal in the face of that threat, whatever it is, and you will easily be worn down.

admittedly the above is true regardless of genesect's item

the advantage of ebelt vs stall only becomes apparent against other threats. one of the big things i find when i'm playing against genesect is that sometimes i have to take advantage of the stereotypical genesect's choice lock to beat it, or to gain the advantage i need to win the match as a whole (risk vs reward right? a lot of mons can set up on a choice locked genesect; bulky CMers are common even in stall. sometimes getting that setup is pivotal to victory). if you have a solid heatran (ie one that can take dugtrio on and does not get worn down easily) that's not a big problem since you can just keep switching it in on genesect, but if you switch something in predicting that genesect will be locked, and it's not, you just got surprise KO'd. one mon down in stall right now is often equivalent to all six, unless the match is winding down. either way the surprise KO will open a serious hole, which stall has too many of as it is.

finally as an addendum, i will admit that really, if your stall team is so vulnerable to genesect that you NEED to scout its choice locks to beat it, you probably don't have a very good stall team (if you have to scout choice on genesect and you're playing stall, that means you're genesect-weak >_>), so ebelt is not at a huge advantage over scarf overall. still, the advantage is there.



oh and as for garchomp vs skarmory, you're really only gonna beat skarm with a sun boosted or +2 fire fang. the LO doesn't really make much difference unless there's already a boost behind it, in which case skarm will take about 55% before whirling. obviously skarm will get worn down having to eat the fire fangs and whirl you away, but it's got roost and lefties for that. either way, that's a long-term issue that really has more to do with the teams as a whole than the vacuum matchup of skarm vs genesect. one on one, garchomp will not be breaking skarmory without getting forced out and switching in multiple times.

the exception of course is if garchomp is carrying fire blast, but the problem with that is that you're either running 4 attacks garchomp (not fabulous right now really - if you're running CB, you'd benefit more from fire fang anyway, if you're running scarf, *shrug*, and if you're running non-boosting garchomp, you get walled ultra fucking easily), or you're running SD with fire blast>fire fang, which is also really not that great because yknow you could be using +2 fire fangs instead of a fire blast. the +2 fang will do practically as much to physically defensive skarm but has much better accuracy... and who knows, maybe you'll be able to troll skarm with flinches and kill it, where as fire blast will probably just decide to be an asshole to you, miss, and let skarm whirl you for free. ultimately, the only thing fire blast will beat is skarmory (assuming it hits 8D), while causing the list of things that wall you to go up noticeably.

 

[Lavos]

The fact that it's so unpredictable with U-turn and its coverage, and send in lol chansey to have it crippled by Specs/Scarf Gothitelle. It'll definitely be walling Genesect then.

Also, Yache mixchomp doesn't seem that bad. Yeah, its speed isn't up to par this generation, but its bulk more than makes up for it. You'll likely get a kill with it. My point is, there are many ways Garchomp can get around Bronzong and Skarmory. It isn't restricted to one set as you make it seem. For all you know he could be using LO SD Fire Fang... If you say SDchomp is bad, then what Chomp set is good?

Uh, ok, so you're clarifying that you'd be running EBelt Genesect + Trick Gothitelle? Sure, I agree that beats most stall teams. EBelt Genesect alone doesn't. Glad we're clear on this.

And as far as I'm concerned, Garchomp just isn't a good Pokemon in the current metagame. BW2 is too fast-paced and too hard-hitting for Chomp to get a decent setup opportunity, and ScarfChomp is pretty weak as far as Scarfers go. Besides, it doesn't do anything that Scarf Landorus-I can't do just as well, and it lacks U-Turn, which is a reason to use the aforementioned Landorus-I and/or Genesect over it. The only semi-decent set would be the bulky Rocky Helmet set, it does a good job setting up Stealth Rock and annoys Rapid Spinners, even those that would normally wall it (i.e. Forretress). Landorus-T does the job better, though. Higher Attack, Intimidate, and access to U-Turn outclasses Rough Skin.

 

[MetaGross66]

Well, it's sort of implied since it's running U-turn, and I do recall saying "almost single-handedly" if you'd read closer... :/

idk, I see rough skin as a decent way to punish weak U-turns. Garchomp also has several advantages over it you can't really compare the two. That Dragon STAB/phazing ability is incredibly useful. He also beats forry with Fire Blast unlike Landorus who takes a 2KO (I think) by HP Ice.

 

[Groudon ex]

I think Landorus-I outclasses Garchomp as an offensive pokemon for the most part. It hits a lot harder with earthquake thanks to sand force, is far more versatile (and hence less predictable) thanks to its diverse movepool and the ability to hit hard on both sides of the attacking spectrum, gets u-turn to use on the scarf sets, and also has the incredible useful ground immunity, as well as a fighting resistance. Garchomp has 1 more base speed point and better defences, but tbh its little extra bulk means squat in this meta when everything hits so extremely hard. Chompy is really underwhelming imo, he just cant keep up with the new-found level of offence this gen. He'll stay in OU, but I expect once things have settled down he'll be lingering around ~#30 in the usage (or hell even less potentially as keldeo is only #45...)

 

[McMeghan]

My favorite Garchomp in BW2 so far, I find all the other set underwhelming and worse than something who would do the job better (I prefer scarf Terrakion/Keldeo for example).
It's so bulky it can usually take a hit and fight back, usually nabbing an OHKO, I can't count how much Genesect switched into it thinking it would take whatever I would throw/setup just to get OHKO'd by Earthquake. Rough Skin is also pretty cool to scratch some life from the weak uturn abuser like Celebi and it also -pretty rarely I admit- save a game where some finisher try to clean up like Sailak Terrakion.

 

[StairFall]

How exactly does Garchomp "rough up" hard defensive walls like Skarmory and Slowbro? And how does ScarfMence come in and "outrage everything to death"? In my opinion, Garchomp and Salamence don't make great partners, they make awful partners. Garchomp is meant to bait Genesect, then kill it after it survives Ice Beam due to Yache Berry. Salamence just outspeeds and OHKOs Genesect. Chomp isn't supposed to break through walls, and neither is ScarfMence. I really don't see any synergy here - and it doesn't help that they're both 4x Ice weak. I'm interested to see how the rest of your team deals with defensive walls such as Skarmory, as well as offensive priority users such as Mamoswine. If you can remove these Pokemon, then sure, I could see Chomp + Mence doing some work, but not until then.

By the way, if Chomp's job is to be a SD user that roughs up walls and threats to Salamence, why not try a SD Haxorus instead? With the brute strength that comes with 147 base Attack and access to much better coverage moves than Garchomp, it would be a good replacement.

simply put Chomp's SD set is an amazing wallbreaker. At +2 you 2hko skarm with fire fang if you have life orb. It's similar to the strategy of using salamence+rayquaza in gen4 ubers. They have almost the same check and counters so you let the wall breaker do a huge amount of damage with its versatility then the scarfer can pick up the pieces.

 

[PK Gaming]

My favorite Garchomp in BW2 so far, I find all the other set underwhelming and worse than something who would do the job better (I prefer scarf Terrakion/Keldeo for example).
It's so bulky it can usually take a hit and fight back, usually nabbing an OHKO, I can't count how much Genesect switched into it thinking it would take whatever I would throw/setup just to get OHKO'd by Earthquake. Rough Skin is also pretty cool to scratch some life from the weak uturn abuser like Celebi and it also -pretty rarely I admit- save a game where some finisher try to clean up like Sailak Terrakion.

Yeah i used that set while suspect laddering, and it was awesome. the power behind its attacks are impressive; i used EQ / Outrage / Aqua Tail / Stone Edge on a Rain Dance team. You can actually beat Skarmory if its at like 60% (feasible if you don't give it a chance to heal) which is nice. The key thing about chomp that sets it apart from pretty much every single other physical wall in the tier is its ability to avoid the OHKO +2 Mach Punch from Breloom. I don't have to tell how huge, this is.

favorite chomp set.

 

[Nachos]

I see little to no reason to decrease Garchomp and Haxorus' defense by 20 points just so it can live a Genesect's Ice Beam. Why sacrifice that good defense that is needed to take Scizor's Bullet Punch and Terrakion's Close Combat more nicely (as well as random physical attacks), all for the sake of a single Pokemon? Not only that, but if Genesect comes in and sees that it's got an Attack boost, it knows what you're up to will just U-turn out. Part of why Garchomp is good is because of its bulk, with PK's Breloom reference being a good example.

And yeah, CBChomp is the best. What Garchomp does well is doing a lot of damage to something with its STAB moves and switching out, scarf is too weak and you're too slow to sweep an offensive team with SD.

 

[PK Gaming]

I see little to no reason to decrease Garchomp and Haxorus' defense by 20 points just so it can live a Genesect's Ice Beam. Why sacrifice that good defense that is needed to take Scizor's Bullet Punch and Terrakion's Close Combat more nicely (as well as random physical attacks), all for the sake of a single Pokemon? Not only that, but if Genesect comes in and sees that it's got an Attack boost, it knows what you're up to will just U-turn out. Part of why Garchomp is good is because of its bulk, with PK's Breloom reference being a good example.

And yeah, CBChomp is the best. What Garchomp does well is doing a lot of damage to something with its STAB moves and switching out, scarf is too weak and you're too slow to sweep an offensive team with SD.

With Garchomp, I can sort of see where you're coming from. Really lowering Garchomp's stellar defenses is more of a "trump card" type deal, and with Genesect being downright omnipresent, why not?

but with Haxorus? The loss in bulk is hardly detrimental. Unlike Garchomp, Haxorus is fairly frail by OU standards. 76 / 90 on the physical side are still pretty lame, and even -20 Def (which is a ways better than a -def nature mind you!) You're still getting OHKOed/2HKOed by things that would ordinarily OHKO / 2HKO, with some exceptions that I can't seem to remember atm. I use that particular set because I find it to be more conducive to the current metagame where your likely to be revenge killed by a Genesect (Omnipresent) or strong special attackers as opposed to physical ones. In your Genesect example, it's not that big deal of a if they happen to U-turn out as they're basically guaranteeing that a random member of their team dies (and Genesect eats extra hazard damage, score) and +1 U-turn does a bit more than Ice Beam, but not enough to kill. The point is, no matter what Scarf Genesect does it cannot OHKO Haxorus, which is kind of a big deal imo.

 

[Razza]

on the topic of genesect download, i ran a 25 iv in defense on spdef hippowdon for a few games, you only drop 6 points in defense and genesect gets an attack boost so your taking 45 percent rather than 70 percent from an ice beam, a 30 percent hippowdon is as good as dead most of the time IMO considering it is too slow to slack off back to 80 percent against most things and ends up kod. Genesect lead vs hippo lead is really common and i hate starting off the game with a crippled hippo in return for sr.

 

[Lavos]

on the topic of genesect download, i ran a 25 iv in defense on spdef hippowdon for a few games, you only drop 6 points in defense and genesect gets an attack boost so your taking 45 percent rather than 70 percent from an ice beam, a 30 percent hippowdon is as good as dead most of the time IMO considering it is too slow to slack off back to 80 percent against most things and ends up kod. Genesect lead vs hippo lead is really common and i hate starting off the game with a crippled hippo in return for sr.

I've started to do this as well, it just makes sense because Genesect is such a prominent lead in today's metagame and you don't want it to take 70% off your Hippowdon as you set up rocks. Hippo otherwise makes a pretty good lead, as it's slower than all other weather starters so you get your sand up right away and you can use turn 1 to set up rocks as well. Genesect is really one of the few leads it has trouble with, so I fully support the 25 Defense IVs for SDef Hippo. You don't really miss 6 Defense points anyways, I've never had the lack of Defense actually end up mattering.

 

[alexwolf]

Running 25 Def IVs on SpD Hippo is awesome in this meta. It makes Hippo an amazing lead, as it avoids the 2HKO from Scarf Genesect's Ice Beam, sets up SR, heals up to full health and then you switch out to an appropriate resist.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Seriously that you are starting to lowering defense EVs from Pokémon with amazing/good physical defense but average/mediocre special defense just to make Genesect get an attack boost so that it cannot OHKO/2HKO you?

One of two, either you are seriously desesperate with a deep Genesect weakness on your teams, or Genesect is really broken. I don't want to believe that the second answer is the correct answer.

 

[Shurtugal]

if your team is or isn't weak to genesect, when using Hippo, it's still a good, minor change you can do to make Genesect's life harder. They aren't doing it because its broken or desperate, but because it helps deal with Gene. That would be like saying Blissey is broken because Duggy is forced to cut its mediocre defense / hp IVs to make seismic toss a 3hko rather than a 2hko.

 

[Lavos]

Seriously that you are starting to lowering defense EVs from Pokémon with amazing/good physical defense but average/mediocre special defense just to make Genesect get an attack boost so that it cannot OHKO/2HKO you?

One of two, either you are seriously desesperate with a deep Genesect weakness on your teams, or Genesect is really broken. I don't want to believe that the second answer is the correct answer.

Actually it's neither, the third option is that Genesect is the most common lead in BW2 OU and it's nice to be able to get the jump on it. Like I said before, the lack of 6 defense points doesn't hurt at all, and Hippowdon is still incredibly bulky on both sides of the defensive spectrum even with a lowered Defense IV.