sorry if the word "those" confused you, I meant to one that its supposed to specifically counter and the ones that it counters along the way (ex: salamence and other dragons). All others should have very little difficulty (aka no resistance) to taking it out.
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CAP 10 CAP 10 - Main Typing Discussion
- Thread starter beej
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Just because a wall is what you've come to expect in a Steel-type Pokemon has nothing to do with its potential to be other things. Kitsunoh can switch into some attacks, sure, but it's clearly not a wall nor is it prepared to counter too much of anything reliably on the switch-in. Its job is not the same, and for what its intent was, it did fairly well.Deck Knight said:
I'm not being disillusioned here. (I'm addressing multiple of your points in tandem to avoid quote-raping the thread and ending this in a tl;dr) Steel does trade a boatload of resistances for very common weaknesses. These weaknesses do need to be addressed somehow. How they get addressed is varied, though, between secondary typing and abilities. That's a logical progression, and its end result is no more predictable than what any other type would have to do. The other types suggested offer more neutralities, fewer resistances, and force the CAP to have tremendous bulk to be able to counter anything at all.
The fact is, no matter what type gets chosen, CAP10 will have to be designed to take hits. If there is any competition to that claim by anyone, you will want to re-read the concept until such point that your argument against it has evaporated. Furthermore, I will reiterate that because CAP10 will have to address only certain threats at once, it having a few crucial weaknesses is important. It must be beatable, and giving it few and uncommon weaknesses while making its bulk tremendous enough to survive numerous attacks (potentially with reliable recovery) is problematic. A neutral typing will result in it becoming a wall. If it has those clutch weaknesses, where only some can be addressed at a time, it will do exactly as it needs to - that is, deal with specific threats in as customizable a fashion as having a fixed typing can be.
You should make it successful, but you should make it a goal to have it be broken. You are perfectly intelligent and wise enough to know the difference, please do not play coy.Deck Knight said:
I'm not dense enough to fail to recognize sarcasm. Sarcasm aside, though, it does need the resistances to switch into a myriad of attacks, but it also needs the weaknesses to be beaten by the things it does not prepare itself for.Deck Knight said:
All of these are good points that I agree with (and are founded in fact, so can't really be argued), but regardless, if you wanted to make a sweeping generalization about any type, you could. Furthermore, none of these points matter. Just because a type is common and/or prevalent in a metagame should not impact how we choose the type if it is as fitting for the concept as it is.Deck Knight said:
You make so many assumptions here that it's tough to actually address your point at all - as it's based on so many things that simply do not have to be. This CAP10 may not be an offensive 'Mon, nor does it have to be a defensive 'Mon. What it needs is to be able to address certain threats while plugging up the holes in its weaknesses to the threats it has to address.Deck Knight said:
This Pokemon will have a secondary type if Steel is chosen. The reason for that is as you suggest, to plug up one of the holes it has in its typing. With two weaknesses remaining it can then choose an ability to beat one while being open to the other. In this vein, it may also be tailored in EVs to take hits on one end of the spectrum over the other, since it's target will likely only attack on one side. It could also do a mixed defense build, trying to mitigate both sides evenly for handling mixed Pokemon like Infernape. This sort of tailoring is something that must be promoted to beat certain threats. This Pokemon does not need to abuse the most "overpowered, overrepresented type" like some other OU walls do, it need only use them as a basis upon which to build an effective counter to a specific Pokemon or group of closely functioning Pokemon.
I see the offensive side of this Pokemon shining if it is being designed as a wallbreaker to puncture Skarmory or Blissey or the like. In that case, it will take on an offensive role and have its stats tailored to that. If it needs to beat Lucario or Gyarados or Salamence, however, it will take on a more key defensive role, bulking itself up so that it can take the hits and fire back according to its target. It's really not so crazy, nor is it an impossible task. What makes it the most likely to succeed, however, is having a Steel typing so that it can take the resisted hits casually as it vies to beat its intended target. It's not a finished product for all of these reasons. You're convinced it isn't flexible and that it can't be done, and I am telling you that it can be done.
It will invariably not counter a specific Pokemon when targeting certain Pokemon, since there are similarities between many Pokemon. It will, however, fall prey to other, different types of Pokemon, when it is targeting a specific subset of the metagame. That is exactly what it is supposed to do, and is exactly what Steel sets it up to do.swordmaster117 said:
Furthermore, it may be able to switch into numerous threats because of its typing, but because of how it is designed by the user in EVs, moves, and so forth, it will be incapable of countering many of the Pokemon it can switch into. This, if anything, keeps CAP10 from being dead weight if the target isn't present on the opponent's team. It certainly won't be nearly as effective as it could be if taking on its target, however.
See here.Dominion said:
Now I'm going to the bar, so I'll respond to any of you that respond to this later on.
Dominoin in CAP nobody cares if we make a Fire type with Hydro Pump or a Steel type with Will-o-Wisp or an Electric type with an amazing movepool.
I support Water for its overall durability, and neutrallity. with the lack of Its got two, relitively uncommon weakness (Electric isn't that common compared to Fighting or Rock), and resistences to common attacks (Fire Water and Ice mainly) Plus it has an excellent STAB, that hits the majority of the OU tier neutrally, with only one Pokemon being immune to it. If it is hard to exploit, it is easily able to tailor itself to counter many Pokemon. I also like Normal for the same reason, but Fighting is a lot more common than either Grass or Fighting, and Water is a better STAB than Normal.
I think the best idea is to make the typing as bland as possible, not so it can resist a lot of moves, but be not weak to a lot. The ability to counter multiple threats should come with the derection of the EV spread, ability, and moves.
I support Water for its overall durability, and neutrallity. with the lack of Its got two, relitively uncommon weakness (Electric isn't that common compared to Fighting or Rock), and resistences to common attacks (Fire Water and Ice mainly) Plus it has an excellent STAB, that hits the majority of the OU tier neutrally, with only one Pokemon being immune to it. If it is hard to exploit, it is easily able to tailor itself to counter many Pokemon. I also like Normal for the same reason, but Fighting is a lot more common than either Grass or Fighting, and Water is a better STAB than Normal.
I think the best idea is to make the typing as bland as possible, not so it can resist a lot of moves, but be not weak to a lot. The ability to counter multiple threats should come with the derection of the EV spread, ability, and moves.
So, it would be dead weight if your opponent doesn't carry the mon it counters? That sounds like a rotten deal to me. I would suggest that it be an even match for a rather weakened anything (burned/Paralyzed Tyranitar, Paralyzed fast pokemon, etc).
@rising dusk
you're poll jumping by saying that it will have 2 types if we pick steel. That right there is limiting versatility. Also, and example for you. Say we make this thing mono steel (trying not to poll jump) and give it relatively balanced stats and a good movepool so it can be customized to counter different things. Lets say we want to counter Gyarados because our team has a problem with DD Gyarados. Therefore, we logically place a hefty amount of defense in our poke along with some HP and some special attack. We also give it thunderbolt for a good way to target weakness. If you ask me, this poke looks like it could not only counter Gyarados and other electric-weak water pokemon, but also Salamence, Dragonite, Skarmory, etc. And thats just one attack. 3 more to cover other types and you've just made a mixed tank that has enough resistances to be able to switch in, stay, and possibly sweep a whole team.
you're poll jumping by saying that it will have 2 types if we pick steel. That right there is limiting versatility. Also, and example for you. Say we make this thing mono steel (trying not to poll jump) and give it relatively balanced stats and a good movepool so it can be customized to counter different things. Lets say we want to counter Gyarados because our team has a problem with DD Gyarados. Therefore, we logically place a hefty amount of defense in our poke along with some HP and some special attack. We also give it thunderbolt for a good way to target weakness. If you ask me, this poke looks like it could not only counter Gyarados and other electric-weak water pokemon, but also Salamence, Dragonite, Skarmory, etc. And thats just one attack. 3 more to cover other types and you've just made a mixed tank that has enough resistances to be able to switch in, stay, and possibly sweep a whole team.
But its supposed to be a slot filler, meaning the rest of your pokes should counter most everything else. And thats why this concept is balanced: it can take out a few guys really well, but has trouble with others. The same can actually be said with a lot of pokemon in OU.
... are we still arguing about Steel/ Water/ Fighting/ Poison?
Can we not just call it a day, say "These are the four types we want to put up for voting on!" and move on?
It's just sad now - I mean, I understand where both sides are coming from, I really do. I personally would love to see an Electric Utility Counter - it would be something unexpected and not really bringing many weaknesses with it to the table. But that's just me.
Steel typing has three key weaknesses, a multitude of resistances, are the most utilised typing in the current situation of things, and most importantly, we've explored it's attacking capabilities, and seen it's defensive ones first hand since Kitsunoh appeared. Utility Counter would gain resistances in exchange for common weaknesses, but most importantly - it would fight with other popular Steel-types in CAP for it's spot, especially if the team starts to look Fire/ Ground/ Fighting weak, depending on which of those move-types still does super effective damage.
Water has two key weaknesses, a few key resistances, is considered the most "adaptable" typing in the game, and we again know exactly what it can do, just we know it has had many different roles, more than Steel has had. Again, it would be competing with an old CAP for a spot, and also, unless the stats are high enough in defence to take it's hits, it has similar problems to Steel.
Fighting is unusual - we don't see enough of it to make it appear worthwhile. I see Lucario, Heracross and Infernape - all three brilliant Pkmn, but all use a Fighting move as it's STABs are magnificent. Hell, one of the most popular varient styles in the game is based on Fighting type - SubPunch. It offers the resists we want for our Utility Counter, as well as both Physical and Special Quick Attack. Useful. It does, however, seem to distract with high STAB and attacking strategy, but if we gave it high enough defensive stats (includes HP, not Speed) and a decent movepool, that wouldn't be so much of a problem.
Poison has much the similar concerns of Fighting - whenever you see it in OU, it's a bonus, not a reason. It has horrible STAB as far as the metagame is concerned, Sludge Bomb no longer used on many Pokemon due to the amount of Steel-types in the game. It does however, offer many defensive abilities - resists all our problems, absorbs Toxic and removes Toxic Spikes, so in that regard better than Steel types, and with the right stats, it could be a monster.
But that's the point: we all know the reasoning, so arguing even more is pointless. We need to vote on it: that gives us a better chance to throw around the necessary arguments and gain the support, as then the majority of the choices are taken away.
On a final notice: you do not need crucial weaknesses to make a Pokemon useless, nor do they need taken away to make it useful. This is something that merely happens to majorly appear, not a gospel truth. Can we please stop using this as an argument for/ against Steel typing. It isn't contributing anything new to the conversation, as it had been mentioned by page 3.
Can we not just call it a day, say "These are the four types we want to put up for voting on!" and move on?
It's just sad now - I mean, I understand where both sides are coming from, I really do. I personally would love to see an Electric Utility Counter - it would be something unexpected and not really bringing many weaknesses with it to the table. But that's just me.
Steel typing has three key weaknesses, a multitude of resistances, are the most utilised typing in the current situation of things, and most importantly, we've explored it's attacking capabilities, and seen it's defensive ones first hand since Kitsunoh appeared. Utility Counter would gain resistances in exchange for common weaknesses, but most importantly - it would fight with other popular Steel-types in CAP for it's spot, especially if the team starts to look Fire/ Ground/ Fighting weak, depending on which of those move-types still does super effective damage.
Water has two key weaknesses, a few key resistances, is considered the most "adaptable" typing in the game, and we again know exactly what it can do, just we know it has had many different roles, more than Steel has had. Again, it would be competing with an old CAP for a spot, and also, unless the stats are high enough in defence to take it's hits, it has similar problems to Steel.
Fighting is unusual - we don't see enough of it to make it appear worthwhile. I see Lucario, Heracross and Infernape - all three brilliant Pkmn, but all use a Fighting move as it's STABs are magnificent. Hell, one of the most popular varient styles in the game is based on Fighting type - SubPunch. It offers the resists we want for our Utility Counter, as well as both Physical and Special Quick Attack. Useful. It does, however, seem to distract with high STAB and attacking strategy, but if we gave it high enough defensive stats (includes HP, not Speed) and a decent movepool, that wouldn't be so much of a problem.
Poison has much the similar concerns of Fighting - whenever you see it in OU, it's a bonus, not a reason. It has horrible STAB as far as the metagame is concerned, Sludge Bomb no longer used on many Pokemon due to the amount of Steel-types in the game. It does however, offer many defensive abilities - resists all our problems, absorbs Toxic and removes Toxic Spikes, so in that regard better than Steel types, and with the right stats, it could be a monster.
But that's the point: we all know the reasoning, so arguing even more is pointless. We need to vote on it: that gives us a better chance to throw around the necessary arguments and gain the support, as then the majority of the choices are taken away.
On a final notice: you do not need crucial weaknesses to make a Pokemon useless, nor do they need taken away to make it useful. This is something that merely happens to majorly appear, not a gospel truth. Can we please stop using this as an argument for/ against Steel typing. It isn't contributing anything new to the conversation, as it had been mentioned by page 3.
I'm with DK on this. Steel resists a lot, but the weaknesses are too crippling to warrant being the primary typing for a Pokemon meant to counter anything. By not making Steel the primary type, we don't have to worry about adding any type-negating abilities in the first place. A type that's neutral to many types without being weak to extremely common attacks is much more important, considering that CAP10 needs to switch into virtually any move any Pokemon can throw at it.
By choosing Steel, we essentially cover anything without a Fire, Fighting or Ground move, which is a lot. And in order to cover those weaknesses, we'll need both a second typing and a type-negating ability; a pure Steel has no chance, unless its doing something completely different than what we're envisioning and the ability will be absolutely necessary to create another neutrality/immunity. By gaining these traits, we now counter everything without a Fire move with Flash Fire, everything without a Fighting move with a Ghost/Flying typing, or everything without a Ground move with a Flying typing or Levitate. A Steel + Flying typing would be ideal, with Flash Fire or Motor Drive/Volt Absorb as the abilities, if we wanted to be make CAP10 as efficient as possible. Thus we now counter literally everything without a Fire move or everything without an Electric move (while the opponent has to waste a turn to find out). Oh, and we'll need Taunt or Encore to stop defensive Pokemon, like Blissey and what have you, and now we can stop set-up. Thus, by doing this, we now have completely destroyed the original concept.
With a Fighting or Water typing, this is guaranteed not to happen due to the weaknesses being either uncommon or being poor coverage options. Either the metagame will adapt which will only open more options for CAP10 or we'll have a Pokemon with good options for doing just about anything except sweeping, i.e. a counter to whatever we need. By having a type with many neutralities, many Pokemon can either risk being KOed, or switch and attempt to muscle through with another member, which is exactly what we needed. Steel affords us with either crippling weaknesses or fantastic resistances and immunities to the point of being both ridiculous and completely the opposite of what we wanted; no middle-ground. By having decently distributed defensive and offensive stats, along with a typing that affords useful resistances, many neutralities and few siginficant weaknesses that can be covered efficiently through secondary typing/ability, we'll have a result with which we can do exactly as we envisioned. And even though advocates of Steel obviously want this result as well, the methods with which a Steel-type must achieve this can only end in a preposterously bulky Pokemon with the ability to counter quite literally everything, considering it'll need a massive movepool to do its job.
tl;dr Steel will be disastrous. Fighting or Water would be ideal.
By choosing Steel, we essentially cover anything without a Fire, Fighting or Ground move, which is a lot. And in order to cover those weaknesses, we'll need both a second typing and a type-negating ability; a pure Steel has no chance, unless its doing something completely different than what we're envisioning and the ability will be absolutely necessary to create another neutrality/immunity. By gaining these traits, we now counter everything without a Fire move with Flash Fire, everything without a Fighting move with a Ghost/Flying typing, or everything without a Ground move with a Flying typing or Levitate. A Steel + Flying typing would be ideal, with Flash Fire or Motor Drive/Volt Absorb as the abilities, if we wanted to be make CAP10 as efficient as possible. Thus we now counter literally everything without a Fire move or everything without an Electric move (while the opponent has to waste a turn to find out). Oh, and we'll need Taunt or Encore to stop defensive Pokemon, like Blissey and what have you, and now we can stop set-up. Thus, by doing this, we now have completely destroyed the original concept.
With a Fighting or Water typing, this is guaranteed not to happen due to the weaknesses being either uncommon or being poor coverage options. Either the metagame will adapt which will only open more options for CAP10 or we'll have a Pokemon with good options for doing just about anything except sweeping, i.e. a counter to whatever we need. By having a type with many neutralities, many Pokemon can either risk being KOed, or switch and attempt to muscle through with another member, which is exactly what we needed. Steel affords us with either crippling weaknesses or fantastic resistances and immunities to the point of being both ridiculous and completely the opposite of what we wanted; no middle-ground. By having decently distributed defensive and offensive stats, along with a typing that affords useful resistances, many neutralities and few siginficant weaknesses that can be covered efficiently through secondary typing/ability, we'll have a result with which we can do exactly as we envisioned. And even though advocates of Steel obviously want this result as well, the methods with which a Steel-type must achieve this can only end in a preposterously bulky Pokemon with the ability to counter quite literally everything, considering it'll need a massive movepool to do its job.
tl;dr Steel will be disastrous. Fighting or Water would be ideal.
Considering the minimal support that Normal is getting I think that I am willing to support steel or any other type that has a bad stab. My main point regarding this decision is that I think we need to emphasize the importance of Super Effective moves, and this is how it is done. I want either Poison, Steel, or Normal, as they are terrible coverage stabs and have fairly good resists/manageable weaknesses.
I am curious as to why our Utility Counter should not be able to counter defensive threats should the need arise? I agree with the defense first mind frame, it's logical and fits the concept; however I feel we are ignoring the power of Stall and even Semi-Stall. CAP10 should have a chance to counter something on those teams, like Blissey or Hippowdon or Stall-Gyarados or Rotom-A, etc. Poison, Steel and Normal suck offensively and totally kill any possibility of tailoring CAP10 to fight a specific type of threat.
All your concerns about countering stall can be taken care of in the moveset poll. If we are going to give this Cap the ability to wall-break AND switch in on +1 attacks it will be close to broken. Beside that, reachzero himself said that this CAP shouldn't be offensively potent. Relying on moveset allows us to tailor to weaknesses for sweepers and without a good STAB you still have taunt, toxic, etc to work with. Saying that our CAP can't counter an entire section of the game just because it has a weak STAB is short-sighted. It will just do it differently.
I thought the point here was that CAP10 could counter a few things specifically at one time. Hence, some of Stall OR some other part of Stall OR some sweepers OR some other sweepers OR ... well you get it.
And while reachzero did say we shouldn't be offensively potent, I still don't think we can be offensively inept and hope to fight back against anything, sweepers included. I do agree more of this will come from the moveset, however I feel we should start with a type that we know can at least do well offensively and defensively and then round out the defensive coverage with the second type.
I just feel like a good STAB isn't necessary. We can make it offensively potent enough to pick on weaknesses with its stat distribution without having to worry about it abusing the stat with STAB. I don't think it is better or worse than a good STAB. It will just need to be built a little differently.
By the way, anyone know when the poll is finally going to start? I couldn't agree more with Seizen about that much.
By the way, anyone know when the poll is finally going to start? I couldn't agree more with Seizen about that much.
If the idea is to be defensively potent and less so offensively, then I think that a Levitating Electric-Poison type might do nicely. It would only be weak to the uncommon Psychic attack, while resisting Fighting and Ground, being neutral to Fire, Stealth Rock, and Pursuit, and still possibly having some offensive capabilities thanks to Electric-typing. I can sort of imagine it being like the new Weezing, only OU-capable rather than UU.
The only problem I can think of with this is the possibility of the CAP having a bit of a Spirtomb complex, that is, not being weak to hardly anything, but not resisting much either. =\ It has the important Fighting & Ground resistances, sure, but not too much else. (Flying, which also isn't common, and electric) =0 Apart from that, I think a typing like that would fit the bill pretty well.
...I've said this before and I hate to repeat myself, but it's only because I haven't seen too many (...well, any) responses to it. Any thoughts on this particular typing?
All right, skip it... agreed, let's just get on with the voting. =0
The only problem I can think of with this is the possibility of the CAP having a bit of a Spirtomb complex, that is, not being weak to hardly anything, but not resisting much either. =\ It has the important Fighting & Ground resistances, sure, but not too much else. (Flying, which also isn't common, and electric) =0 Apart from that, I think a typing like that would fit the bill pretty well.
...I've said this before and I hate to repeat myself, but it's only because I haven't seen too many (...well, any) responses to it. Any thoughts on this particular typing?
All right, skip it... agreed, let's just get on with the voting. =0
Also resists bug and steel meaning it's a great typing for countering Scizor.
I still hope that we explore other type-changing options though.
Water has already been explored to death, so chances are we can already see how it would turn out. however, since this concept is something that hasn't been done yet, we may have to do something Water hasn't seen yet (if we choose to use it)
Fighting on the other hand would be very interesting. Fighting at this point has been mainly offensive, yet it's resistances offer good ground to spread into a defencive roll. I think a defence focused Fighting type would be a very cool concept. also, I'm strongly against limiting available moves because of type; however, if it came to that, Fighting is a type that makes sense to have a wide range of status and opponent crippling moves while still having reliable offence if needed.
I just wanted to re-input Ice and point out that the only reason why there aren't more ice type Pokémon in OU is because Gamefreak has yet to make enough of them with decent secondary typings! Ice hits Dragon, Grass, Ground, and Flying Super Effective. A couple of these types are found paired up alot in OU. I'll also point out, while all UU Poké, Froslass, Abamasnow (BL?), and Walrien all see decent OU usage in the form of Hail teams. That being said wouldn't Hail support make this an even more effective counter?
Fire might also be an interesting type to try out as long as we get rid of it's terrible SR weakness. I say this for a few reasons, the first being that Fire resists Bullet Punch, making it a possible Scizor counter. It also resists Fire itself, the second most common attacking type. Heatran has already show some countering potential, so why don't we expand on that?
Fire might also be an interesting type to try out as long as we get rid of it's terrible SR weakness. I say this for a few reasons, the first being that Fire resists Bullet Punch, making it a possible Scizor counter. It also resists Fire itself, the second most common attacking type. Heatran has already show some countering potential, so why don't we expand on that?
Ice type moves hit those types. Ice type moves could easily be given to Pokemon of different types, only problem being lack of STAB.
Not really, no. I don't see how hail would help in ways that Sandstorm couldn't, minus the probably-having-to-use-rock-type part.
1. Ice STAB is only for Ice typed Pokémon, there for making Ice type Pokémon the best users of Ice type moves
2. 3 of the most common types take no damage from sandstorm, Ice is the only type safe from Hail
If you think about it Sandstorm is nearly as common as Stealth Rock, talked about in most thorough damage calcs, yet Hail has more potential because it hits a wider array of pokemon. The things keeping Hail from dominating the metagame are a general lack of OU Ice types and a decent auto-Hail Pokémon.
Great, Hail imunity, because that will definitly play a major role in my "anythingotherthenahilteam"
I don't know why everyone thinks good STAB is neccesary. I'd choose a SE move over a STAB anytime. Sure a STAB might hit th switch in harder then the predicted SE move but who cares, this pokemon isn't supposed to counter switch ins anyways.
Fire and Fighting weakness isn't the best thing, brings only 1 resistance to the table. And i don't expect it tou counter much when at 75% health all the time. This limits further building even more then Steel does, steel have atleast resistances to play around with.
Edit: Shouldn't a poll be up soon, Steel, Poison, Water, Fightingg seems to be the popular choices
First comment:
What is CAP's seeming obsession with Water/Steel/Fighting/Poision? The latter three types were all put fowards for Collosoil, and this isn't the only time Water's been put fowards either. This is part of the reason why I suggested Grass, to get us to think about other types.
Second Comment:
Speaking of 'Other Types' if we're considering Fighting and Poision due to their lack of weaknesses, we should be considering Electric, especially as it's only weakness is a shared Ground weakness with Poision. Not just that, but Electric has a far better STAB than Poision. [And maybe Fighting, hitting bulky waters, as well as Flying types, and hitting Steels for SE are kinda even] In addittion, as seen with Rotom and Zapdos, Levitate and Flying-type both remove the single weakness of the Electric type, giving it nothing but pluses. A secondary type could give use the weaknesses, as well as more resistances.
Third Comment:
I've not seen any real discussion on Dragon either, and, let's face it, if we're thinking of resists, Dragon is something we need to look at. Excellent Neutral coverage also aids in countering threats... but possibly too many. That's where I'll leave Dragon for now.
Fourth Comment:
The voting will probobly be soon. Maybe Beej wants us to narrow down the types a bit more? Or discuss some good ideas that have cropped up once or twice, like Electric.
What is CAP's seeming obsession with Water/Steel/Fighting/Poision? The latter three types were all put fowards for Collosoil, and this isn't the only time Water's been put fowards either. This is part of the reason why I suggested Grass, to get us to think about other types.
Second Comment:
Speaking of 'Other Types' if we're considering Fighting and Poision due to their lack of weaknesses, we should be considering Electric, especially as it's only weakness is a shared Ground weakness with Poision. Not just that, but Electric has a far better STAB than Poision. [And maybe Fighting, hitting bulky waters, as well as Flying types, and hitting Steels for SE are kinda even] In addittion, as seen with Rotom and Zapdos, Levitate and Flying-type both remove the single weakness of the Electric type, giving it nothing but pluses. A secondary type could give use the weaknesses, as well as more resistances.
Third Comment:
I've not seen any real discussion on Dragon either, and, let's face it, if we're thinking of resists, Dragon is something we need to look at. Excellent Neutral coverage also aids in countering threats... but possibly too many. That's where I'll leave Dragon for now.
Fourth Comment:
The voting will probobly be soon. Maybe Beej wants us to narrow down the types a bit more? Or discuss some good ideas that have cropped up once or twice, like Electric.
I wasn't saying it had to be used with Hail or that it should have Snow Warning, I just said it could be nicely paired with Hail in the even it was used on such a team.
Ice hits around 76% of types for at least neutral damage, which is where STAB becomes useful. STAB Blizzard/Ice Beam is going to be doing a lot more to (Pokémon name here) than it would unSTABed. Blizzard becomes a 180 power attack when wielded by an Ice type Pokémon.
I honestly like Grass a lot but as a primary type it leaves a lot to be desired. It has a greater weakness issue than Steel (which I think is surmountable) but offers even less resists even though they are good ones. I think we can do something pretty original without having to settle for a subpar type.
Electric is more practical and should be considered at least as seriously as Poison. Once again, it may be a likely secondary typing depending on the direction we take here.
Bring on the poll!!
We don't want something that can always threaten (insert pokemon here) anyway. We need something that has to specialize to threaten.
Electric is more practical and should be considered at least as seriously as Poison. Once again, it may be a likely secondary typing depending on the direction we take here.
Bring on the poll!!
We don't want something that can always threaten (insert pokemon here) anyway. We need something that has to specialize to threaten.
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