CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 2 - Main Typing Poll 2

[beej]

We're now down to Fighting and Electric. Vote for whichever typing you think will best suit CAP10. Please consider that this Pokemon will be expected to switch into and potentially handle a vast majority of threats depending on what you customize it to address when you make your decision.

Name: Utility Counter
General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.
Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once.
Questions To Be Answered:
--How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
--Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
--How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
--Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?
Explanation: I envision this concept as looking like a more extreme version of Porygon2 or Hariyama; it can be custom designed to handle virtually any threat given the correct selection of EVs, moves, etc. However, in choosing to deal with certain threats almost flawlessly, it leaves itself open to other threats. Multitype would obviously make this concept's job much easier, though I doubt it is absolutely necessary to making it work.

This poll will be closed at 11:20:03 PM EST on March 14.

 

[Shock Trooper]

I'm going for the Fighting type because I feel that we can learn more from it than the Electric type, as stated in the previous thread. Also because of one thing that reachzero himself said:

I envision this concept as looking like a more extreme version of Porygon2 or Hariyama; it can be custom designed to handle virtually any threat given the correct selection of EVs, moves, etc.

 

[Gir!]

Well, with Water dissapearence, I will change sides for Fighting, which might actually be a much better option, people cheering for Electric should understand we shouldnt be looking for lack of weaknesses, but presence of vital Resistances. Fighitng fills that niche nicely, while having good decent STABs(and for those of you who say CC and SP are too bad, theres nothing restricting us to make a new move, we`ve done it before, why not repeating it?)

 

[familyguyman]

I am kind of upset Water is out since it still could have made a run as I feel, due to the defensive nature, Steel voters would have more likely gone to Water.

Oh well, moving on, I was on the fence between Electric and Fighting as both have good pros and cons. However, I think Electric is a slightly more appropriate type, mostly because of the current underrepresentation of Electrics in OU. I think Fighting has been done a lot, even in CAP.

 

[Aura Guardian]

Fighting has more weaknesses, but they are less common. As such, it would more easily counter a portion of the metagame. I forsee Electric being: thunderbolt/thunderpunch, Recover/Rest, HP Ice/Grass, Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse, or some variant thereof. While that is a gross oversimplification, Fighting seems more versatile (See: Machamp/Heracross/Lucario/Medicham differences and abilities)

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

It was a tough decision to make, but after two out of three coin flips I finally decided to with Electric for the primary typing though I wouldn't mind if Fighting wins this poll since both types are great in my opinion. I would make a comment about how Electric has something over Fighting, but that has been argued to death already so it wouldn't matter. I'm somewhat hoping that when the secondary typing poll ends, the end result would be something stellar.

Edit: It seems I need to provide a valid reason onto why I chose Electric over Fighting if I made a comment. Okay, other than the fact it was chosen by coin flip, the reason I chose Electric was because it the least seen type within OU and because it had the fewest weakness of the two typings. I'm aware that Ground is an common attack type in OU, but it's can be so predictable that it can be avoided easily through typing, ability, or simply prediction skills.

 

[Dubulous]

I'm operating under the assumption that CAP10 will have a secondary typing, or rather that the majority of the community will want a secondary typing. I voted Fighting because, while it has more weaknesses than Electric, we can use the secondary typing to cover up these weaknesses. If Electric were to win, we'd have to seriously consider Mono-Electric because adding another type will add more weaknesses (or take away resistances, which is still important).

 

[tennisace]

Just a reminder: you need to provide reasoning if you post in this thread. If you don't, you will be infracted.

 

[P_K]

Crap... I missed the first poll? Well, one vote doesn't really matter I suppose...

I'm voting for the electric type for the reason that it only has one weakness, but that weakness is one of the most common attack types used- about as good as it can get for a counter-almost-everything Pokemon. I almost voted for fighting, but... well, honestly I don't have a good reason for not voting for it. I dunno, fighting and electric... very tough choice. I don't really feel comfortable with either yet... Hopefully some solutions will begin to appear as we delve further into this concept.

Edit: *sigh* I wish I could withdraw my vote... I've reconsidered the typing, and one move came into mind-- Pursuit. If we were to make it the fighting type, it'd have much less to fear from pursuit. Dark is one of the most common types used in attacks.

REAL EDIT: Upon mid-editing this post, it occurred to me that Electric and Fighting both have the same amount of resistances, but Electric has only one weakness. I recant my change of heart to supporting the fighting type, and I shall solidify my statement that Electric is the way to go!

 

[tangramman]

Voted Electric. With a future typing and ability, we can tailor CAP10 to become the Utility Counter is needs to be: weak to Ground or immune/resistant. Considering there's never been an Electric CAP in the style that we're creating now, we're likely to learn more than we did with Arghonaut. As far as I'm concerned, however, either typing would work fine.

 

[lyt_cadorea]

Electric has one weakness, and it just so happens that one weakness doesn't hit a third of OU. Somehow I don't think that if someone's thinking "Gee, my team could really use a counter for threat X," it's because threat X knows Earthquake/Earth Power.

 

[Maci12]

I voted Electric this time around. Both options are similar in that they have few weaknesses and great offensive STAB. However, Electric's sole weakness to Ground can easily be negated. Electric's resistances are not incredible, but that aids the concept; Electric as a type walls very few pokemon. For example, pokemon with Steel moves often carry Earthquake. By using Electric as a base, CAP 10 will not automatically counter most of the top threats, rather it would have to be tailored to beat each threat. My last point is one that has been stated before; we have already used Fighting types many times in CAP. We could learn more about the metagame by using an Electric type to fulfill the concept, as opposed to using a fighting type. Despite my supporting Electric, I believe that either way this poll goes, CAP 10 will be fine, as both types are good matches for the concept.

 

[Tortferngatr]

I'm operating under the assumption that CAP10 will have a secondary typing, or rather that the majority of the community will want a secondary typing. I voted Fighting because, while it has more weaknesses than Electric, we can use the secondary typing to cover up these weaknesses. If Electric were to win, we'd have to seriously consider Mono-Electric because adding another type will add more weaknesses (or take away resistances, which is still important).

Celebi, 600 BST though it may be, refuses to die to ANY of its 6 2x weaknesses and often lives through non-Megahorn variations of its 4x weakness. We can easily give it a Grass or Bug sub-typing to alleviate it of its Ground weakness, and Water is always good for offensive synergy. Besides, it's not like we'll pick something either redundant-in-learning like Dragon (we've already seen Cyclohm...) or Ice as the secondary typing (Ice pretty much screws with your capacity to be defensive.)

Also, think about this: As the CAP metagame has always showed, if there were more Pokemon in the top 10 who were weak to Flying and Psychic, then more Pokemon who could run them viably (but had outclassed moves in OU) WOULD run them. Why exactly is there a thread dedicated to Staraptor in the CAP forum, again, and why exactly is Togekiss prominent on the CAP threat list? Meanwhile, Ground is already such a darn good type with the best move in the game barring Judgement and Draco Meteor, that I doubt much anything that can use EQ or EP viably doesn't tend to already. With Fighting, you play two wildcard weaknesses: Two Top 10 Pokemon have Psychic as a secondary typing (and Jirachi would LOVE to Zen Flinchhax CAP10 if it gets a Fighting type,) and Gyara can run Bounce. With an Electric-type, we know comfortably how people will probably take this guy: They will probably try to kill it with EARTHQUAKE!!!. However, we can easily work around this weakness with Magnet Rise or one of the Ground-resistant secondary typings. You cannot do that to Flying without Gravity (I think), and Psychic...look, unless this becomes Fighting/Dark, we aren't likely removing its Psychic weakness, something even more capable of being taken advantage of than the Flying type. Flying and Psychic are only unused because OU lacks significant, Top 20, Poison, non-neutral Bugs, Fighting-types, and Grass-Types. We see all of these in CAP (Fidgit, Syclant, Arghonaut/Revenankh, and Pyroak, respectively,) and given Jirachi here run Zen Headbutt, and Togekiss runs FAR more often than in OU, we should KNOW how much more prominent Psychic and Flying are when they're given the right metagame. In contrast, EQ and excellent synergy with a variety of types ensures it will always be prominent, and we won't be seeing any real shocker "counter counter" movesets designed to counter this through surprise factor. In short, Electric means the enemy will simply use more predictable ways of handling it: perfect when you just want to counter something without it frying you with surprise factor.

Hence, I voted Electric. It's got a STAB that only works in a synergy which we might not give it (forcing it to rely on unSTABbed coverage moves for countering and leaving it more open to that which it isn't designed to counter,) and it has a predictable weakness that effectively means the metagame won't simply shift around its "team glue" and counter the counter. In other words...Electric will simply produce a more successful Utility Counter than Fighting.

 

[Akusu]

I voted Fighting mainly because it has resistances to everything it can resist that could cause it problems switching in ( U-Turn, Pursuit, Payback, Stealth Rock). I also would much rather work with this type than Electric because Electric will have problems either switching in on a highly common move (Earthquake) to defend a pokemon weak to it.

Since psychic and flying weaknesses are much less prevalent, as well as much-less capitalized on, I believe that a fighting type will allow it to switch in an defend the pokemon it needs to defend that are threatened by the pokemon it's been tailored to defeat. Earthquake is always a risky move due to Levitate and flying types, but it will often be used against i.e Heatran regardless.

As a side note, I'm in no way comfortable giving up an ability slot to Levitate to simply remove a weakness.

 

[heatran1919]

I voted electric, it only has one weakness, though its an exploitable one. Switching into something packing earthquake effectively can be remedied easily, through a secondary typing that resists ground, or levatate, or some other third thing i cant think of off the top of my head. All in all, i think that electric typing will be an interesting path to take, especially in OU. And plus, electric types are immune to parlization, and we need to make sure that that CAP can avoid statuses as effectively as physically possible, as to not hinder it's utility abilities.

 

[Aqueos]

I voted for electric. We could have one if it's abilities be levitate and the other be something else. This gives us the coveted no weaknesses everyone is after. Besides since this is cap we could give it ice beam flame thrower and grass knot without a secondary type.

 

[Lord Jesseus]

Resistance to U-Turn, Pursuit and Stealth Rock is more important than to Brave Bird, Thunderbolt and Bullet Punch imo.
And weakness to ground is a lot worse than weakness to Psychic and Flying.

I see Fighting as a much better option.

 

[Aqueos]

And plus, electric types are immune to parlization

You're incorrect. Thunder wave works on electric types without volt absorb or motor drive. Not to mention stun spore. We could give it volt absorb or motor drive or even limber to avoid this though.

 

[ShravanP]

I once again voted Electric.

There are a few reasons why I felt it was better. First off, as far as its feasibility for the concept goes, it's pretty much on par with Fighting. While its one weakness may be more severe than both of Fighting's weaknesses, it's easily covered up by either typing or ability. Electric also offers very good synergy with a lot of secondary types. Which brings me to my second point.

Electric is a greatly unexplored type in the metagame. It has a plethora of very interesting options open to it, allowing us to really exercise our creativity in the coming weeks. Furthermore, as far as CAP itself is concerned, Fighting has already been done twice (one of them being a decentralizer), while only Cyclohm sports Electric. And its role is nowhere close to what we want to achieve with CAP10, so there will be little to no overlap as far as functionality goes.

Art-wise, Electric just feels more intriguing to me as well. But that last reason is more of a personal preference.

 

[Zari]

Voted Electric, for a few simple reasons:

First and foremost is that we have done fighting before. Both of the other fighting Capmons were incredibly bulky too; so unless we really pull something creative out of our hat, we might end up with yet another similar Fighting type. On the other hand, Electric is largely unexplored territory for Cap. By making yet another Fighting mon, I feel we would overall learn less from Cap 10's concept than if we chose electric as the primary. That's not to say fighting is a bad type however; It has useful resists and a solid, strong STAB.

Secondly, I chose electric because of its resists--most importantly steel; a resistance to the widely used Bullet Punch. Electric, by having a steel resist, makes it easier for Cap10 to not be revenge killed by mons like Scizor or Metagross after it has dealt with the mon it was tailored to counter.

Lastly, in terms of weaknesses, yes Electric does have the glaring ground weakness--but is that so hard to avoid/neutralize? You don't have to resort ot the stereotypical Levitate, just to remove the weakness. 3 different secondary typings are plausible that remove electric's ground weakness. We could even leave the weakness there so Cap10 would have some counters; after all, It is not designed to beat everything all at once.

The other option to consider is that many Earthquake/power users do not have STAB on it, so with some investment in a defensive stat the weakness could be migitated. The thing is, with electric as a typing, if we give this capmon a decent amount of bulk, having it invest in a single defensive stat it could still take on earthquake or earth power users, but not both at once. By having the ground weakness, Cap10 becomes unable to invest in both defensive stats effectively, fulfilling the concept that it shouldn't counter every single mon at once.

 

[Lord Jesseus]

I once again voted Electric.

There are a few reasons why I felt it was better. First off, as far as its feasibility for the concept goes, it's pretty much on par with Fighting. While its one weakness may be more severe than both of Fighting's weaknesses, it's easily covered up by either typing or ability.

My problem with this is that in order to cover up this enormous weakness (Earthquake is the most commonly used move remember) we have to use up our possibilities on other aspects of the CAP just to get rid of it. Sure we can give it levitate, but then we only have one more ability to choose from, which will seriously limit the flexibility of this thing.
We could make it flying, bug or grass but these aren't exactly terrific types. Two present a SR weakness, two give an ice weakness, two give a fire weakness... It's just not good.
Simply put I would prefer to have a secondary type/ability that makes the CAP better rather than just stuffing around fixing it's horrible weakness.

 

[PeanutFlipz]

Staying with Electric, I still think it is slightly more useful in terms of resistances.

 

[Bogmire]

voted electric. I think this pokemon should have as few weaknesses as possible, and ground is easily covered by levitate or secondary typing.

 

[T-major]

Secondly, I chose electric because of its resists--most importantly steel; a resistance to the widely used Bullet Punch. Electric, by having a steel resist, makes it easier for Cap10 to not be revenge killed by mons like Scizor or Metagross after it has dealt with the mon it was tailored to counter.

if it has dealt with the Pokemon it's meant to counter, that means it's served it's purpose and it doesn't matter if it's revenge killed. in fact, thats what we want; a Pokemon that can counter specific threats, but only one at a time. Since only Scizor and Metagross run Bullet Punch, steel resistance is nothing to brag about.

 

[Zari]

if it has dealt with the Pokemon it's meant to counter, that means it's served it's purpose and it doesn't matter if it's revenge killed. in fact, thats what we want; a Pokemon that can counter specific threats, but only one at a time. Since only Scizor and Metagross run Bullet Punch, steel resistance is nothing to brag about.

Yes, only Scizor and Metagross run Bullet Punch. However, the steel resist is more than that; it helps against Scarf Jirachi Iron Head flinchhax, and Flash Cannon from Magnezone. If at any point in the process we decide we need to counter Jirachi, Electric typing will help immensely, as it gets both a resistance to Iron Head, and access to Twave to stop Jirachi from any more flinches.