CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 2 - Main Typing Poll 2

[Tortferngatr]

Ok, so you stated that you think of the ground weakness would help support the concept, and then you explained exactly why it conflicts so horribly with the concept. As you said, the ground weakness would allow a lot of Pokemon to score a solid hit on it, which is exactly why it is so incompatible with the concept. "This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon". That is the concept, not "This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon except for the huge amount of Pokemon that regularly carry a ground move". Keeping the ground weakness would make it extremely difficult if not impossible for this Pokemon to be customizable to counter Pokemon who regularly carry a powerful ground move, and therefore completely defies the concept.

Celebi does not exactly do what is called dying to anything SE, and it has 7 weaknesses.

Also, think about this: Ground is at the front end of the metagame. NOTHING THAT DOESN'T ALREADY RUN IT WILL TRY TO IN ORDER TO BEAT IT SPECIFICALLY. Flying and Psychic are decent types that much of OU can run viably, except the OU metagame has too few threats that are weak to them. Metagross and Jirachi can easily run Zen Headbutt to get rid of their counter, the only reason they don't is because they have difficulty with Infernape anyway and there really isn't much use BESIDES shredding the glass machinegun Ape. If this guy gets fighting, why exactly can't Jirachi just flinchhax CAP10 to death?

 

[Yllnath]

I chose Electric because it would let us have a Pokemon with no weaknesses. A Ground weakness is an easy one to get around with Levitate, which in itself is not a limiting ability since it would let CAP10 switch in on more attacks. Also, CAP10 is supposed to be able to counter everything, but not with one moveset, and if CAP10 has any weaknesses, that keeps it from countering any Pokemon that have powerful STAB attacks for that weakness. Electric also has fewer resistances, which will actually help the concept. If a Pokemon has a resistance to a certain type, then it will almost always be able to counter Pokemon that are heavily based on using that type. This makes CAP10 able to always counter some common threats with any of its movesets, which goes against the unpredictability the concept states CAP10 will have. For example, imagine CAP10 were a counter to all Gengar sets. A player who sees a CAP10 switch in on their Gengar is not going to consider that the particular CAP10 set being used against them is one that is not designed to counter Gengar; instead, that player will switch out their Gengar and not worry about what moveset CAP10 is running. That goes against the concept, because then CAP10 will not always force the opponent to try to determine what moveset CAP10 is using.

Yeah, but now you are already fixing a flaw in the typing by assuming it gets x ability. What if we decide it won't get Levitate since we find 2 other abilities that suits the concept far better. Then we'll still be stuck with a huge ground weakness. So the last option is to carry a resistance berry instead of a large amount of far more useful items? Which also only works once, to boost. Or give it gargantuan defence stat that border on the edge of brokenness. Your typing is based on an assumption about an ability, but if you take that assumption away, the logic for electric seems a lot worse right away.

 

[Seizen]

I wouldn't say Levitate or Flying type needs to be slapped onto an Electric type to make them useable. I mean, Electivire does very well for itself with that annoying EQ weakness which you never really attempt to remove. It's about playing the Pokemon properly - if you fear your opponent is using EQ on the switch-in, then it's your own fault for getting hit by it if CAP 10 switches into EQ.

Honestly, I don't understand this argument. Effectively, we've gone from Steel = Bronzong 2.0 to Electric needs Levitate or Flying, and the Pro. Camp is trying to justify the reasoning why it either doesn't or that it works and is a good thing in general, while the anti. Camp is attempting to point out that it's restricting the Pokemon. So Pro. Steel became Pro. Electric, and AntiSteel became AntiElectric. Not really what we need.

Both typings are good, and just because you don't think it will work doesn't mean you ought to ruin it for everyone else, or attempt to force your opinions onto other people. If you try to, it just shows you're immature and that your opinions and concepts will be taken with some reluctance due to your actions. Let's take this example: I figured that Utility Counter should have lost out to Dragon Counter, but UC won. So I've helped UC along instead. I was among the first few people to have suggested Electric typing, but it doesn't mean I need to stick to it or even want it to win over a better typing for the project.

Besides, if need be, we can add on the other type at Secondary Typing stage, satisfying everyone arguing over the two now.

 

[Tortferngatr]

Yeah, but now you are already fixing a flaw in the typing by assuming it gets x ability. What if we decide it won't get Levitate since we find 2 other abilities that suits the concept far better. Then we'll still be stuck with a huge ground weakness. So the last option is to carry a resistance berry instead of a large amount of far more useful items? Which also only works once, to boost. Or give it gargantuan defence stat that border on the edge of brokenness. Your typing is based on an assumption about an ability, but if you take that assumption away, the logic for electric seems a lot worse right away.

Celebi: 100/100/100 is 100/100/100. Celebi does not exactly die easily. Celebi also has 7 weaknesses. Electric only has 1, which nothing will run simply to bait CAP10, as everything that GETS EQ and can use it well tends to already. See where I'm going with this?

Meanwhile, Fighting gives us two types that we can't really prepare as well for since we don't have any real Psychic- or Flying-weak threats that have defenses greater than or equal to crap in OU (Infernape clause,) while we have several Pokemon that resist them. CAP teaches us Psychic and Flying, if more threats were weak to them, would be much better than now. Why should we be so quick to give it baitable typing?

 

[Yllnath]

I wouldn't say Levitate or Flying type needs to be slapped onto an Electric type to make them useable. I mean, Electivire does very well for itself with that annoying EQ weakness which you never really attempt to remove. It's about playing the Pokemon properly - if you fear your opponent is using EQ on the switch-in, then it's your own fault for getting hit by it if CAP 10 switches into EQ.

Right. Read the concept again. The re-read your line again. It seems odd to me. You know why? What if I want CAP10 to counter a pokemon that is running a set that is highly focused on EQ since my team has an EQ weakness. The concept is that it can always switch in to what it's tailored to counter. The electric vs. EQ thing is completely going against that aspect of the concept. Are you saying that if I made CAP 10 to counter BandMence, stuck on EQ, since none of my other pokemon would enjoy that very much, I would have to sit out on CAP10? Because it just wasn't meant to be?

Celebi: 100/100/100 is 100/100/100. Celebi does not exactly die easily. Celebi also has 7 weaknesses. Electric only has 1, which nothing will run simply to bait CAP10, as everything that GETS EQ and can use it well tends to already. See where I'm going with this?

Meanwhile, Fighting gives us two types that we can't really prepare as well for since we don't have any real Psychic- or Flying-weak threats that have defenses greater than or equal to crap in OU (Infernape clause,) while we have several Pokemon that resist them. CAP teaches us Psychic and Flying, if more threats were weak to them, would be much better than now. Why should we be so quick to give it baitable typing?

As for the first part. EQ is a scary move, often used by scary pokemon, espacially in the very offensive metagame that OU is. If you didn't read my make up damage calc on the previous page where I assumed a 100 def stat, do so now. A non stab boosted, non attack stat boosted EQ does over 700 damage.. Coming from a mence ofcourse, but Im sure that most offenders over 100 attack stat get to OHKO.

As for your second paragraph, I don't understand what you mean. Care to elaborate?

 

[Tortferngatr]

Right. Read the concept again. The re-read your line again. It seems odd to me. You know why? What if I want CAP10 to counter a pokemon that is running a set that is highly focused on EQ since my team has an EQ weakness. The concept is that it can always switch in to what it's tailored to counter. The electric vs. EQ thing is completely going against that aspect of the concept. Are you saying that if I made CAP 10 to counter BandMence, stuck on EQ, since none of my other pokemon would enjoy that very much, I would have to sit out on CAP10? Because it just wasn't meant to be?

Celebi has seven weaknesses and ITS DEFENSES let it get along fine...

And Fighting is just begging for Jirachi and Metagross to bait it.

 

[2gig]

Celebi does not exactly do what is called dying to anything SE, and it has 7 weaknesses.

Also, think about this: Ground is at the front end of the metagame. NOTHING THAT DOESN'T ALREADY RUN IT WILL TRY TO IN ORDER TO BEAT IT SPECIFICALLY. Flying and Psychic are decent types that much of OU can run viably, except the OU metagame has too few threats that are weak to them. Metagross and Jirachi can easily run Zen Headbutt to get rid of their counter, the only reason they don't is because they have difficulty with Infernape anyway and there really isn't much use BESIDES shredding the glass machinegun Ape. If this guy gets fighting, why exactly can't Jirachi just flinchhax CAP10 to death?

Celebi also has a ridiculous BST (I don't even think we're allowed to go that high in CAP, are we?), and a considerable amount of bulk. I don't want to restrict CAP10 to being a Bulky Pokemon.

Also, I never said anything about more Pokemon running earthquake, I said that a lot of Pokemon already do, which would make it difficult for CAP10 to play the role of a specific utility counter if the Pokemon it is looking to counter regular carries earthquake. Ground would be one more thing to worry about from a large majority of Pokemon, and would eat up some of the "customizablity" of CAP10.

Also, there's only so much one can do about a Pokemon running a move that it typically wouldn't in order to beat a very specific threat. After CAP10's introduction and usage surge, the example you mentioned involving metagross and jirachi would likely still not be viable for most teams. If it is viable, oh well, you can't win 'em all, but I still think ground, which is everywhere, is a bigger issue.

 

[Tortferngatr]

Ridiculous BST? Yes.

Is it HYPOTHETICALLY POSSIBLE that we could go there? Yes.

Also, Electric forces us to rely on non-STABs for coverage as long as it isn't Water/Electric, since I doubt either Electric/Dragon OR Electric/Ice will get kudos with most people. This limits the number of Pokemon it can counter at once, hence, the concept is followed. If it can only counter a specific number of EQ-running Pokemon at once, then yes, the concept is being followed.

 

[Str0ngbad]

Right. Read the concept again. The re-read your line again. It seems odd to me. You know why? What if I want CAP10 to counter a pokemon that is running a set that is highly focused on EQ since my team has an EQ weakness. The concept is that it can always switch in to what it's tailored to counter. The electric vs. EQ thing is completely going against that aspect of the concept. Are you saying that if I made CAP 10 to counter BandMence, stuck on EQ, since none of my other pokemon would enjoy that very much, I would have to sit out on CAP10? Because it just wasn't meant to be?

Or... if you couldn't find one viable pokemon in all of OU that was immune to ground attacks to save the team that you absent-mindedly built weak to freaking EQ.... you could give it a type resist berry. Honestly, this is all arguing about abilities. They come later. This is just the type poll and I LOVE how close it is.

P.S. I think we could come close to 600 BST if we had to but I really don't think that is going to be necessary.

 

[DarkSlay]

Just a simple example. A DDmence (+0, no DD in) with LO would do 747 damage when considering 100 def. I have no idea what the actual stats will actually be, and this is not the place to discuss that.

Eh...what? Bold, Max HP/Def potential damages with LO (which could potentially be the case if one wishes to counter Salamence):

369 Atk vs 328 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 210 - 248

Now I have just realized what you did: you gave it a stat of 100. Not BST. That means this calculation is misleading, and is incorrect. It is ridiculous, with all due respect, to bring up an astronomical stat that makes absolutely zero sense. I might be pushing for Electric, but I'm not giving Fighting a 100 SpD stat against LO Gengar's Psychic to prove my point. I understand your concerns with the weakness, but this just seems to make people believe that the Electric weakness is astronomical, when this is just not the case.

Just wanted to point this out. It's nothing personal, but it certainly is misleading.

 

[Xiom]

Right. Read the concept again. The re-read your line again. It seems odd to me. You know why? What if I want CAP10 to counter a pokemon that is running a set that is highly focused on EQ since my team has an EQ weakness. The concept is that it can always switch in to what it's tailored to counter. The electric vs. EQ thing is completely going against that aspect of the concept. Are you saying that if I made CAP 10 to counter BandMence, stuck on EQ, since none of my other pokemon would enjoy that very much, I would have to sit out on CAP10? Because it just wasn't meant to be?

For the love of ..... If you want to counter BandMence stuck on EQ then slaping Levitate to the pokemon is the best idea, doesn't matter that it can use another ability. Levitate will allways work better against BandMence stuck on EQ.

And yeah, lets see your precious Fighting come in on a Speced Togekiss locked to Air Slash.

Each time you say weak to ground I can say weak to Flying and Psychic. The difference is you can't say, An ability will remove all its weaknesess.

I don't care if EQ is common. I don't care if Psychic is rare. Weakness is weakness. This goes to all Fighting suporters.

 

[2gig]

Electric forces us to rely on non-STABs for coverage as long as it isn't Water/Electric, since I doubt either Electric/Dragon OR Electric/Ice will get kudos with most people. This limits the number of Pokemon it can counter at once, hence, the concept is followed. If it can only counter a specific number of EQ-running Pokemon at once, then yes, the concept is being followed.

Electric and Fighting are both STABs with nice coverage, something we actually don't want in CAP10. Fighting case of this flaw is lesser because Fighting lacks "standardized" moves such as Electric's Thunderbolt (not that I'm saying an Electric typing guarantees CAP10 getting Thunderbolt). It wouldn't be crazy for CAP10 to not have Close Combat or for it to even lack Cross Chop. This would cause CAP10 to rely heavily on non-stabbed moves, while something like Brick Break could be utilized for it's Fighting-type, while not being excessively powerful due to stab. As for that last sentence, it's much simpler to just avoid the EQ weakness in the first place so it's a non-issue.

 

[beej]

I have no idea what you're continually going on about in regard to STAB. Having good coverage in general is a massive plus for this CAP, considering it's going to need the tools to respond to a variety of threats situationally. What the hell is wrong with having good STAB? People are only going to be using the moves that are necessary for taking on whatever they want to take on, and if our Pokemon becomes an offensive threat with Thunderbolt or Close Combat, that has to do with us not staying true to the original concept, not that Electric or Fighting absolutely result in offensive prowess.

tl;dr - Having good STAB doesn't compromise the concept. What on Earth are you talking about?

 

[Dominion]

I am astounded that both Fighting and Electric are supported so well, and so equally (115 to 115 at this point).

They would certainly get the job done, that is without a doubt, although I feel that the killing blow will come from Electric. We've done 2 fighting CAPs before and we've explored both an Offensive and Defensive edge on Fighting type. Both Argonaut and Revenankh are bulky, strong physical fighters capable of handling multiple threats. I do not wish for this to become another.

My support for Water shifted to Electric when I realized that Argonaut already did something similar to this CAP. While this cap Isn't Argonaut or Revenankh exactly, I strongly feel that we are very bias towards the "Bulky" spreads that we've seen in many, if not 90% of the CAPs already made.

Due to this, I suggest we start fresh, and go with a type that has seen little CAP time and that hasn't been used in a similar concept; Electric.

 

[Seizen]

@Yllnath: If you have a team which is EQ-weak, and you also desperately want to use this Electric CAP10, then to be honest... you're only making things hard on yourself. While that's a hypothetical situation, if you are Earthquake-weak and given the choice between choosing CAP10 and something which is already recognised to do the job better, like Skarmory, Rotom, Salamence or something similar, then most people will choose the existing Pokemon.
The point I was trying to get across is that we have viable Pokemon who are EQ weak already doing fine. And that Levitate isn't useful if it is decided that something such as Thick Fat or Rough Skin were better on a whole.

@X-I omg: You're correct: Fighting would need to fear Flying and Psychic. And no ability removes all weaknesses, as anything without weaknesses generally ends up with low stats in HP, Defence or Special Defence, or a combination of those. Giving it new weaknesses, just not to SE hits.
The argument is more that EQ is seen to be a popular move and many Pokemon run it, causing the support for the other camp.

 

[2gig]

I have no idea what you're continually going on about in regard to STAB. Having good coverage in general is a massive plus for this CAP, considering it's going to need the tools to respond to a variety of threats situationally. What the hell is wrong with having good STAB? People are only going to be using the moves that are necessary for taking on whatever they want to take on, and if our Pokemon becomes an offensive threat with Thunderbolt or Close Combat, that has to do with us not staying true to the original concept, not that Electric or Fighting absolutely result in offensive prowess.

tl;dr - Having good STAB doesn't compromise the concept. What on Earth are you talking about?

A powerful STAB such as close combat would hit well against too many things, and would be a staple on just about every moveset. We want CAP10 to be able to be customized to counter a few specific pokemon, not to be able to be customized to counter a few specific Pokemon while also hitting a bunch of other stuff really hard with its incredibly powerful STAB.

Edit: Just to be clear, I am a supporter of the Fighting type. The issue I presented is actually easier to fix for the Fighting type than electric type. I only used Fighting as an example because, in Fighting's case, while it is easier to fix, the repercussions of leaving it unchecked would be more devastating.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

117 vs 117

Well isn't that cool. Onto something more serious; Fighting for the most obvious reason: If you need to be able to handle a vast majority of the metagame, you can't have such an exploitable weakness such as Ground. Flying and Psychic attacks are extremely seldom, so Fighting wins here. I don't see any other aspect that makes Electric even close to better imo.

 

[Tortferngatr]

117 vs 117

Well isn't that cool. Onto something more serious; Fighting for the most obvious reason: If you need to be able to handle a vast majority of the metagame, you can't have such an exploitable weakness such as Ground. Flying and Psychic attacks are extremely seldom, so Fighting wins here. I don't see any other aspect that makes Electric even close to better imo.

You can see Ground coming. You can't see Flying or Psychic coming, and much of OU could run Psychic and Flying, but don't normally outside of CAP. Why? There are threats besides the ever-frail Infernape that have a flying or Psychic weakness.

 

[Objection]

From what I've seen in previous metagame alterations (and this project results in a metagame alteration), whenever a new threat emerges, people begin to adjust movesets and EV spreads and even whole teams just to deal with the new threat. Cresselia's addition to UU and the previous CAP Colossoil are two examples of this, and if CAP10's weaknesses are all to types not seen in OU an awful lot, then it's not unreasonable to predict that moves of those types will be used a lot more.

And I think I've argued enough in this thread now. Both Electric and Fighting have their merits, and the valid merits of Fighting are definitely more obvious than those of Electric.

 

[2gig]

From what I've seen in previous metagame alterations (and this project results in a metagame alteration), whenever a new threat emerges, people begin to adjust movesets and EV spreads and even whole teams just to deal with the new threat. Cresselia's addition to UU and the previous CAP Colossoil are two examples of this, and if CAP10's weaknesses are all to types not seen in OU an awful lot, then it's not unreasonable to predict that moves of those types will be used a lot more.

^This. I was too lazy to post it. Also, might I add that as they become used a lot more, they will become predictable, just to finish off Tortferngatr's statement.

 

[Xiom]

@X-I omg: You're correct: Fighting would need to fear Flying and Psychic. And no ability removes all weaknesses, as anything without weaknesses generally ends up with low stats in HP, Defence or Special Defence, or a combination of those. Giving it new weaknesses, just not to SE hits.
The argument is more that EQ is seen to be a popular move and many Pokemon run it, causing the support for the other camp.

Not a very good argument, "anything without weakness usaly ends up with low defenses".

I don't care what weakness lacking pokemon have had this far, we are making this pokemon aren't we? And we decide wheter or not it will have a bad defence. And it doesn't have to be weakness less in the first place.

If the other camp fear EQ so much then they could make sure that this CAP gets levitate. Done, their fear is gone. Also levitate gives the nice pro of not entering 50% health when 3 layers of Spikes, 1 layer T-Spike and 1 layer SR is up.

 

[Chomper The Sharptooth]

I voted fighting but at this point I am feeling more on the side of electric, which is sad in a poll this close. Even with the earthquake weakness it can still be a fine earthquake counter with the right ability or 'customizing' it with the appropriate berry. I was thinking Standard OU before, but to fit into CAP a counter would need not have two types that can easily be put on lure pokemon.

 

[Tortferngatr]

^This. I was too lazy to post it. Also, might I add that as they become used a lot more, they will become predictable, just to finish off Tortferngatr's statement.

But if we design the thing for standard OU, then we are NOT customizing it for the new meta that results.

Hence?

 

[Aura Guardian]

But if we design the thing for standard OU, then we are NOT customizing it for the new meta that results.

Hence?

The new metagame would be because of this, so I don't think we need to customize it for the new metagame until it happens (and it would naturally be able to adapt to the new metagame, hopefully.)

 

[2gig]

If the other camp fear EQ so much then they could make sure that this CAP gets levitate. Done, their fear is gone.

That's just it, levitate is a horrible ability for this CAP's concept, period. Even if Electric wins; I'd rather see it without levitate than with it, despite the ground weakness. The best way to alleviate the issues of levitate or a ground weakness are to simply go with the Fighting type.