CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 5a - Ability Discussion

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beej

beej

everybody walk the dinosaur
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Discuss the possible abilities for CAP10 here. Considering we have already decided upon the typing and the stat poll is up at the moment, there should be plenty to base your discussion on.

reachzero said:
Name: Utility Counter
General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.
Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once.
Questions To Be Answered:
--How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
--Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
--How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
--Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?
Click to expand...


Typing: Water/Electric

Physical Tankiness (PT) - Very Good
Physical Sweepiness (PS) - Good
Special Tankiness (ST) - Very Good
Special Sweepiness (SS) - Good

Rules:


  • No poll jumping. Considering we've got the typing, and you *can* talk about the stat spreads in this discussion thread, you really shouldn't need to poll jump further with the movepool. Keep it to typing + stats.

  • No threadhogging. This is an open discussion and should not devolve into a back-and-forth between two people. This is something that can tend to happen at this point in the project a lot, so watch it.

  • Don't get hung up on the same points. The discussion should remain fresh throughout the course of this thread, and you really shouldn't be posting the same arguments over and over.

  • Don't suggest a custom ability without sufficiently backing it up in your post. Generally speaking, I don't like the idea of creating an ability when we could learn just as much by sticking to in-game abilities, but if you really think of a fantastic idea that you can back up in a long post, go for it. Discussion of custom abilities will be heavily regulated.
Once again, this discussion is coinciding with the stat poll, so it's not poll jumping to base your arguments on the stat spreads that are being decided upon. Please don't muck up this thread. Stats are arguably the most important part of this CAP, but the abilities may prove crucial to pulling our Pokemon together in terms of what it can respond to.

Happy discussing!
 
I'm putting forth the following:
Intimidate and Special Attack Intimidate

These allow CAP10 to further tailor its ability to tech to beat target threats, allowing it to soften blows on one end of the spectrum as it switches in to take the incoming hit. This can also allow it to tailor itself to beating mixed threats effectively as well. With Special Intimidate and a physically bulky EV spread, you can switch into MixMence and not cower under its might. Its Draco Meteors will be reduced and its physical earthquake at +0 won't smash you apart. This is just one example of a Pokemon that can now be soft countered reliably by CAP10 as a result of having these abilities.

Furthermore, it's very important that these abilities only function on switching in. As to soft counter a Pokemon, you generally want to switch into it, this is a good thing. Furthermore, if the enemy switches out, your ability won't turn you into a wall or anything as its boon is lost until it switches out and then back in.
 
As this needs to be generally a one time counter, there are a few abilities I would like to suggest.

Trace: There isn't much to say beyond just the ability. Shown by Porygon2, it turns the opponent's advantage against it. Countering opponents such as Flygon, Salamence, Gyarados, Heatran, Magnezone, Vaporeon, and Jolteon simply by switching in effectively. Porygon2 now sits in NU because of it's terrible typing and stats, but I believe CAP10 can make use of this amazing ability. Unfortunately this would mean CAP10 could potentially counter threats without having invested for them with ease which takes a small part away from the custom feel.

Levitate: There are so many reasons to use this ability it's not funny. Removes CAP10's Ground weakness, dodges Spikes and Toxic Spikes so close OHKO don't tip into an assured KO, being able to escape and counter Dugtrio. Levitate has more than enough merrits to be considered. This does mean CAP10 will have a single weakness though and would be able to wall certain threats without having to invest for it (Gyarados is a potential candidate for this).
 
I am agreeing about Trace as a good ability for CAP10. It essentially shuts down Salamence and Gyarados, allowing CAP10 to come in really easily.

But the main ability I would like to advocate is Download. Download is a super cool ability. It makes CAP10 a bigger threat against stuff like Metagross and Latias, boosting its offenses to more easily take them down. Earth Power and Avalanche are much more threatening with a boost. And with the general defensive vibe of this pokemon so far, it could use a little offensive boost. As a combo, Download and Trace affect different pokemon, and take CAP10 in two seperate directions, so I would very much like to see them together.
 
I don't like that Recycle-esque ability, simply because it does not work.

Type-resist Berries only work on super effective hits, which basically leaves us with a Ground and Grass-resist Berries to choose from. We are not able to utilize Berries like Haban to take Dragon-type attacks easier. It does not work that way.

A cool new way to utilize Focus Sash is worthless because the stat spreads in the polls are all very bulky. It will be pretty difficult for this CAP to not be OHKOed. On top of this, entry hazards are everywhere and it's unlikely for you to always reach maximum health after every Focus Sash.

I don't really see how this Recycle ability will really help this CAP. I believe there are more better ones out there that we should select, such as Intimidate and special Intimidate (I believe that's a great combination).
 
I have to go to bed soon so I'll make it quick.

I also think Trace will be an excellent ability for CAP10. It shuts down a specific Pokemon depending on what you run, such as coming on Blissey's Toxic and using <physical Fighting-type move> to KO and switching out to heal with Natural Cure. Or using Intimidate against Gyarados and slamming it with <electric-type move>. Intimidate and/or Special Intimidate also sounds great for the concept, since if you are trying to shut down something like Porygon-Z, the special Initmidate would be more useful.

One ability I would like th throw out there is Filter. Filter would be extremely useful if your CAP10 needs to switch in on super-effective moves in order to counter a specific Pokemon threatening your team.
 
Word, Special Intimidate and Intimidate is what im rooting for, mainly because it allows us to go more into the concept of picking what you want to counter, either physical threats or special ones better.
 
With all of the spreads I've seen in the poll, I definitely don't think that this poke needs any more defences, it should be able to just survive threats than take them out. I think that the abilities need to limit this pokemon rather than help it, as frankly its stats and typing are quite good, and it will most likely have a killer movepool. I have a few ideas that could use fleshing out:
- Cut the chosen attacking stats in half, then give it Pure Power and a special version, ensuring the poke can't become an expert belt wielding... well... expert
- Hmmmm, a utility counter should only really use one attack very effectively (Fire for Scizor, Electric for Gyara, etc.). Maybe an ability like multitype that only changes which STAB the poke has depending on the plate it holds. (Would also require re-stat-ing). The CaP would keep its defensive typing while limiting its offensive flexibility (once a set is made).

Really, what I think is important is that it sticks to its Utility role, and the ability is probably the best way to do this. Beware of a 252 def, 252hp expert belt spread with thunderbolt, ice beam, flame thrower, and surf (countering gyrados, dragons, scizor, maybe metagross, skarmory, etc, etc. All in one set.)

A lot of the suggested abilities focus on surviving hits (see intimidates, recycle, levitate). But i think that the stat spreads (especially my favourites, Rising Dusk and Deck Knight's) do a pretty damned good job at that. Also, I think that trace is far too situational, and only counters certain threats.
I like download though, its probably a lot better than my pure power idea, but i still think stats would have to be adjusted (It's strong enough already!). I can already see myself messing with it by taking out a def iv from infernape to nerf the surf coming at me.
 
Filter. When running the calcs for my spread, I noticed that,for many Pokemon, needed a just little extra defensive boost when dealing with Ground attacks in order to actually serve as a true counter. Filter nicely provides that boost.

Trace is also an excellent choice. With Trace, CaP10 has the option of being a true Salamence counter, even with SR down. That's something you don't see every day.

I am against Levitate. With Levitate, CaP10 pretty much auto-counters Gyarados, Metagross, and Heatran. That's already 3 Pokemon in the top 10 you can arbitrarily switch into, aside from a possible Explosion. Lower down on the list, Hippowdon, Mamoswine, and Swampert have pretty much nothing on you when you have Levitate. I think it's a bit much.
 
Fuzznip said:
I don't like that Recycle-esque ability, simply because it does not work.

Type-resist Berries only work on super effective hits, which basically leaves us with a Ground and Grass-resist Berries to choose from. We are not able to utilize Berries like Haban to take Dragon-type attacks easier. It does not work that way.

A cool new way to utilize Focus Sash is worthless because the stat spreads in the polls are all very bulky. It will be pretty difficult for this CAP to not be OHKOed. On top of this, entry hazards are everywhere and it's unlikely for you to always reach maximum health after every Focus Sash.

I don't really see how this Recycle ability will really help this CAP. I believe there are more better ones out there that we should select, such as Intimidate and special Intimidate (I believe that's a great combination).
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Yup, I'm an idiot. Oh well. I'm going to agree with Intimidate. It definitely works with the concept and I've heard some good arguments for it while discussing spreads over a PM.
 
petrie911 said:
Filter. When running the calcs for my spread, I noticed that,for many Pokemon, needed a just little extra defensive boost when dealing with Ground attacks in order to actually serve as a true counter. Filter nicely provides that boost.
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With CAP10's only weaknesses being Grass and Ground, Levitate is an arguably more useful ability for CAP10 than Filter. Levitate provides spikes and toxic spikes immunity on top of its ground immunity. Also, presumably, CAP10's weight should be low enough for a base 60 GK or lower.
 
Generally speaking Trace, Intimidate, and/or Shadow Tag are probably the best existing abilities for CAP10.

Intimidate: Would help lessen the damage dealt by physical threats like Salamence, Gyarados, and Lucario which in turn allow CAP10 to better counter those Pokemon. Believe me, Intimidate would make handling Mence, Dos, and Luke a whole lot better for any stat spread being voted on.

Trace: Would generally be used in the same way as Intimidate, but it has a broader range of usefulness.

Shadow Tag: Now I know it's rather extreme ability to suggest it does fit into the concept pretty well. Understand people that while the concept of CAP10 is to counter a certain group threat, most player would simply switch their Pokemon out once they see CAP10 appear, thus trying CAP10 into a simply check. We don't want CAP10 to be just some check for some Pokemon, but with Shadow Tag you can guarantee that whatever Pokemon you're getting ready to counter with CAP10 is countered...for good.

I don't know if this is a good idea to suggest but I'll just throw it out there to see what I get, A Reflect & Light Screen ability. The idea behind came from someone suggesting Filter to help lessen the Ground weakness, but it was quickly dismissed due to how crappy the ability was as a whole. This Auto Reflect/Light Screen ability would lessen the blow relieved from incoming attacks boosted or not and thus allowing CAP to better counter key threats. Would an ability like this take away focus on customization and push it towards more bulky sweeper territory? Probably, but can a Pokemon with like 80 in [special] attack really sweep things?
 
Rising_Dusk said:
With CAP10's only weaknesses being Grass and Ground, Levitate is an arguably more useful ability for CAP10 than Filter. Levitate provides spikes and toxic spikes immunity on top of its ground immunity. Also, presumably, CAP10's weight should be low enough for a base 60 GK or lower.
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...Yes, I know Levitate would be more useful. I believe Levitate would be a bit too useful. That's why I'd prefer Filter. It provides enough defense for the necessary switch-ins, without letting CaP10 act as just a general counter to too many things.
 
I don't like the idea of a Special Intimidate and I believe that there is a reason to why it wasn't created, although the later is not relevant. Most Physical attackers that you will see will have a Stat-Up move, in Swords Dance and Dragon Dance. While most Special Attackers would have only have Calm Mind. With that said, a majority of Special attackers do not rely on a Stat-Up move and by creating an Ability that cuts-off Special Attacks on a already bulky Pokemon... you are effectively creating an overall special wall. While not perfect logic, I do believe that it has merit.

As for an ability, I could agree with Intimidate or personally I like the idea of Water Absorb and Volt Absorb. Giving it longevity so it can complete its job at countering a specific threat.
 
Gothic Togekiss said:
Shadow Tag: Now I know it's rather extreme ability to suggest it does fit into the concept pretty well. Understand people that while the concept of CAP10 is to counter a certain group threat, most player would simply switch their Pokemon out once they see CAP10 appear, thus trying CAP10 into a simply check. We don't want CAP10 to be just some check for some Pokemon, but with Shadow Tag you can guarantee that whatever Pokemon you're getting ready to counter with CAP10 is countered...for good.

I don't know if this is a good idea to suggest but I'll just throw it out there to see what I get, A Reflect & Light Screen ability. The idea behind came from someone suggesting Filter to help lessen the Ground weakness, but it was quickly dismissed due to how crappy the ability was as a whole. This Auto Reflect/Light Screen ability would lessen the blow relieved from incoming attacks boosted or not and thus allowing CAP to better counter key threats. Would an ability like this take away focus on customization and push it towards more bulky sweeper territory? Probably, but can a Pokemon with like 80 in [special] attack really sweep things?
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I thought of this too, but I don't think it is quite necessary. Perhaps something that harms an opponent from switching out or Arena Trap could be more acceptable. I mean it's not like CAP10 could compare to Wobbuffet, but Shadow Tag is a bit much.
 
Although it's definitely less of a useful ability I was going to throw out the idea of Battle Armor/Shell Armor since CAP10's purpose is to counter specific pokemon that presumably the rest of your team can't, and couldn't afford being taken out by a lucky critical hit. I'm not saying I support this but it's something to think about..

I do like the idea of intimidate + special intimidate though. Shadow Tag is too powerful though I think as CAP10 was meant to be a soft counter to force switches more than anything which shadow tag completely prevents.
 
Rhys29 said:
I thought of this too, but I don't think it is quite necessary. Perhaps something that harms an opponent from switching out or Arena Trap could be more acceptable. I mean it's not like CAP10 could compare to Wobbuffet, but Shadow Tag is a bit much.
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I was going to suggest Arena Trap as an alternate, but majority of the bigger threats like Salamence and Latias are either Flying type or Levitaters. I'm going on the assumption that people would want to take those guys down more than than anything else and being able to trap those guys would greatly increase the success of CAP10's goal. I'm well aware of Shadow Tag's power and only suggesting it because it seem to fit the current project's goals nicely.

darkmattr said:
Shadow Tag is too powerful though I think as CAP10 was meant to be a soft counter to force switches more than anything which shadow tag completely prevents.
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I thought the whole purpose of CAP10 was to "hard" counter certain Pokemon. That's kinda the vibe I'm getting from all the discussion during these past days. Shadow Tag/Arena Trap would give it the ability to do just that.
 
I think that the way that this pokemon will operate in the metagame has to be looked at more. First of all, if we can successfully make it a true utility counter, than it would theoretically be only able to take out that one pokemon. Thus it's the perfect pokemon to put onto a team that is decimated by a certain poke (i.e. my most recent team is so rotom-a weak, so I'll put in a CaP 10 packing spdef evs and shadowball.

But wait, there's more! Then the poke could be used to threaten a counter to certain poke, i.e put in your tyranitar counter 'CaP 10' against a scizor (it'll still eat bullet punches for breakfast), scaring his scizor out of play until 'CaP 10' is taken down, allowing your scizor weak poke to set something up (just a quick, and bad, example).

These, in my opinion, should be its only viable roles. The difficulty is in giving the poke extreme adaptability in the Team Builder, but minimal adaptability in battle. As far as I can tell, this will be done by giving it bulk that can go either offensive or defensive, and good move coverage.

The problem here is that good move coverage (necessary to counter many threats while not having huge attacking stats) means that the poke will be able to pack a moveset that doesn't just hit most pokes for neutral damage, but instead for SE damage (effectively doubling most of its attacks). If I'm mistaken, I'd really like to see another way for this pokemon to become a utility counter. But so far this guy looks like an electivire with less attack, but better bulk and speed. And it's not supposed to be a wall breaker, but a counter. Therefore I would like to push harder for an ability that makes it worse than its typing, stats, and movepool. Not better. Thus I shy away from intimidates (which increase its bulk, making it a wall that can wreck tons of pokemon), and stat boosters (unless the original stats decrease, in which case i'm a fan, as it would only be able to hit from one side). Also volt absorb and water absorb are very counter-productive, as a counter should only have the longevity to take on its target, and are only relevant with certain pokemon.

I like battle armor - it doesn't power it up any more than it already is, while also meaning the poke can be a more full-proof counter.
 
For now I'd throw my support behind Filter, but also suggest abilities like Serene Grace and Aftermath; the first makes sweepers balk at risking being hit by a 60%-Para chance STAB Discharge (and with good reason), while the other makes them have to worry about big recoil damage for the sake of taking it out (while this doesn't counter special sweepers, a secondary ability, like a Special Intimidate as suggested, could help in that regard; it would certainly help polarize what the pokemon can deal with at any given time)....

Eh, just random thoughts and suggestions. Sadly, explanations aren't exactly my strong point.
 
Filter/SOLID ROCK: Chosen because it provides the Pokemon with enough defensive boost to withstand several Earthquakes and such, but not too useful like Levitate where you end up autocountering Pokemon like Gyarados and Metagross when your EV focus is not on that etc

New Ability: Reverse Natural Cure.
Heals the Pokemon from status when it switches in, as opposed to natural cure's healing on the switch out. What makes this different from Natural Cure?

Defense against Sleep:When the sleeping Pokemon with this ability switches out, it retains this status, thus keeping Sleep Clause active. When this Pokemon comes back in, it wakes up from the Sleep.
Virtual Toxic Spikes immunity: Since switch in based abilities activate after entry hazards (I think..., but if they aren't that doesn't mean we can't program this to activate after hazards no?), this Pokemon can get poisoned by Toxic Spikes and heal immediately. This is extremely useful in allowing the Pokemon to continue to fulfill its job when Toxic Spikes are up, something that most Natural Cure can not do.

Now, what's the point of this ability?

Whether it may be burn or poison, where the extra chip of health taken can put the opposing moves into kill range, or paralysis, where there is a 25% chance of not moving as well as nullifying the option of using Speed to counter things, status can be a major disturbance to a Pokemon's countering ability. Considering that this CAP is not immune to any status, this ability may be worthy of consideration. Of course, a flaw in this is that it does not consider the possibility that the Pokemon it's trying to counter can status it, but if they spent their turn to catch you on the switch with status, chances are it won't damage you enough to prevent you from scaring away the Pokemon (though burn + if you use physical attacks can be annoying). Of course, sleep puts you out of commission but it does so to ~98% of the Pokemon in the game anyways and at least this can absorb sleep via this ability. The main annoying thing about status is other Pokemon statusing this Pokemon and then letting the actual threat destroy it (an example is using Thunder Wave Kyogre to paralyze Latias so that Mixed Palkia can wipe it out), and this ability solves that

I am HEAVILY against Shadow Tag as it essentially causes a free kill. This may shift the Pokemon's role from utility counter to utility trapper. And although as much as I love Levitate itself, I am against it (as previously mentioned).

I am fairly partial on Intimidate and Special Intimidate.

One nomination I had in mind was Sticky Hold for the sake of blocking Trick, which allows it to counter the likes of Scarfrotom and Latias easier. I decided to hold this one back as it's not particularly useful since there are other ways to absorb trick (and there aren't THAT many Trick users to begin with). However, I'm tossing this one out there
 
Gothic Togekiss said:
Understand people that while the concept of CAP10 is to counter a certain group threat, most player would simply switch their Pokemon out once they see CAP10 appear, thus trying CAP10 into a simply check. We don't want CAP10 to be just some check for some Pokemon, but with Shadow Tag you can guarantee that whatever Pokemon you're getting ready to counter with CAP10 is countered...for good.
Click to expand...

I think you have your definition of counter messed up a bit. A counter is a pokemon that can switch into another pokemon with little to no risk and instantly pose a threat to the opponent, causing it to either switch out or take massive damage if it stays. Therefore, if CAP10 makes the opponent to switch, it already did its purpose, since it succesfully threatened the opponent. That being said, I hate the idea of Shadow Tag completely, not only it makes CAP 10 outstandingly powerful to the point of being a better Wobbuffet, but it also causes it to basically counter every choiced mon that cant hit it for supereffective damage, and in my opinion, thats a big over the top.
 
Cool, I've been waiting for this. I see that a couple of people have already suggested Intimidate/Special Intimidate, and I'd like to also throw in my support for those. In addition, I'd like to propose Poison Heal and a custom ability, Entrench. Poison Heal is pretty self-explanatory, immunity to status and double leftovers recovery is very much appreciated on a Pokemon who needs to be at very high health to do its job and often lives on the knife-edge between ohkos and 2hkos and 2hkos and 3hkos (given most of the spreads so far). Entrench is what I call an ability that, only on the switch in, cuts any damage you take in half. Fearing a Draco Meteor from Mixmence? No problem, just switch that sucker in and take ~35% due to Entrench (given the stat spreads so far). The major advantages this would have over Intimidate/Special Intimidate is that it would work on both sides of the spectrum and it would cut damage in half instead of Intimidate/Special Intimidate's 1.5x...so it grants insurance against Pokemon who you'd like to counter but are afraid to because of the possibility that you'll eat a retardedly powerful attack on the switchin even with your choice of Intimidate (i.e. LO Leaf Storm from Celebi, CB EQ from Metagross, etc) and against Pokemon who run Mixed sets frequently (which High HP/Low Defense spreads, as seem to be common in the other thread, fare poorly against). The major disadvantage is that it only works on the switch in, so if the opposing Mence uses DD as you come in, you're boned. So again, it depends on what you're expecting to counter and it would offer our CAP much more freedom in countering things that its typing might hinder it against normally.
 
I believe that Intimidate could be very, very helpful for this Pokemon, considering that even the most bulky of the potential spreads still take a lot of damage from a +1 Salamence Earthquake. The reason for choosing Intimidate over Trace is pretty simple: Trace doesn't help you at all against Infernape (particularly physical MixApe), Lucario or Tyranitar. On the other hand, the Pokemon that you would want Trace for that are not handled by Intimidate are Heatran, Jolteon and Vaporeon (and I suppose Magnezone and Choiced Dugtrio) are already pretty easy to deal with because of CAP10's typing. I believe that "Special Intimidate" is not really necessary considering CAP10's typing, which is already excellent in terms of tanking special attacks (other than Draco Meteor, anyway...). I would also like to suggest Water Veil, since it would make it a lot easier to deal with Pokemon like Rotom-a that try to beat their counters using Burn.
 
I would agree that Filter/Trace/Download are all great options for CAP10.
I am a going to suggest something which may be slightly controversial, No Guard.
CAP10 is supposed to be a counter, it is supposed to eliminate certain threats while still being unable to take everything on. No Guard is an effective way of accomplishing this I believe; giving CAP10 a guaranteed hit/kill with those moves effective at countering specific pokemon, but giving it an almost definite chance of death if it stays out longer than to defeat said targets. It could be switched in to defeat a pokemon, but would then have to be switched back out for its own survival (which would in all likelihood happen anyway, but just in case somebody is overzealous).
Also sensible choices for CAP10 would be Adaptability (for greater countering power) or Clear Body (to prevent removal of key stats vital to its countering role).
 
I'm going to suggest Mold Breaker for an ability. On paper, It sounds like a good ability.
What It does is make an opponents ability that affects your attack useless (Not really good with explanations, sorry).
This means that Those with Levitate will become vulnerable to ground type moves, Those with Insomnia become vulnerable to sleep, Those with Water Absorb become vulnerable to water type attacks (I think), Those with Hyper Cutter become vulnerable to moves like growl, etc.
How about it? I'm not saying it must have this ability, but I think it will make CAP10's job at Utility Countering easier...
Hope this helps...
 
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