CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 5a - Ability Discussion

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Just so you know, Dynamicpunch's confusion rate is 100% :)


Yes you are correct. I must have been punched by it previous to my post :pirate:
Silly smarty-pants with your smartness. There is no place for that here!

Many secondary effects aren't that damaging to this CAP.

Burn from fire moves will almost never happen because this CAP will not be bombarded by fire moves. Also, due to this CAPs fairly balanced Atk/SAtk stats, this pokemon isn't completely crippled by burn unless the user went a Choice Band route or something similar. Also, Will-O-Wisp would be the prefered move of choice if someone predicted this CAP was coming in on the switch and they really wanted to burn it.

Poison is laughable. Poison Jab and Sludge Bomb are rarely if ever used. Shield Dust doesn't protect against Toxic though :(

Paralysis is a huge problem for this CAP due to it's high speed. Rotom-A's Discharge would really cripple this CAP. But then again, So would Thunderwave. If we're this scared of status why not give it Natural Cure instead? Considering how much this CAP will be switching in and out.

-Stat drops from moves are iffy. Psychic, Shadow Ball, Seed Flare. Alot of these moves hit hard enough anyway. If someone could do a Calc showing that a potential -Sp.Def drop from Shadowball would cause this CAP to go from, say, a 3HKO to a 2HKO then I could see a point. But, why not just get Clear Body or White Smoke? ..or just switch out.

Flinches suck, but only really come from Togekiss.
Confusion sucks, but it's useage is gimmicky at best. Falcon/Dynamic Punch's 100% rate is nice and all, but it's honestly only used on Machamp. Water Pulse isn't a problem for this CAP, heck, Water Pulse isn't even viable.

Shield Dust is nice on paper but it doesn't measure up for this CAP due to this CAP's already impressive flexibility.
 
I still really like the idea of Download for CAP 10. I've edited my previous post regarding Download to include relevant calculations and analysis so people won't have to just say "lol attack increase it's a broken sweeper lol" and we can actually use real information to debate it. I believe Download is the ability option right now that is most in the spirit of the concept and works excellently with this stat spread, and I would like to see it seriously considered instead of instantly discarded.
 
Ugh... I posted THREE times, and not once did it go through... do the servers really hate me that much?

I support Mold Breaker becuase Volt Absorb and Water Absorb could be huge threats to this CAP

Also, remember, if an ability does not fit an artwork, we can re-name the ability, IE Solid Rock/Filter, etc.
 
I hadn't thought Hydro Pump had been that unreasonable, though I see a smaller proportion (~2/3) of Water types get it than I had thought. Still, even if it doesn't get Recover, it will get Rest, and Wish or Heal Bell support isn't too hard to come by.
Hydro Pump is a bit much. And I don't think we should give it an offensive option as such. Its also unreliable, so if we keep the 'reliable counter' mindset no one should be using it anyway. Taking away an alternative option to go offensive is something I would like to avoid.

Rest is fine, I'm game for Rest. Recover with good speed and solid defenses would give it too much staying power in my opinion. It doesn't need it to get the job done. Rest/Sleep Talk is a very viable form of recovery and does extremely well to limit CAP10's offensive options while not making it defensive enough to go very far. I think of Wish as more team support and it's nearly the same as Recover from what I see. The only thing that makes it more appealing is the necessity for two slots to heal reliably.

@Admiral Korski: Good to see people back their arguments. The only problem I have is that your calculations somewhat support what I am against. It 2HKO's. A lot. We say the offensive stats aren't that impressive, but a neutral nature on our CAP yeilds 397 Sp.A which is higher than base 130's. Upon switching in with no item it would become the most dangerous OU Sp.A hitter there is (not counting PoryZ since it's BL) on stats alone. Gengar, Magnezone, and even Heatran if you don't count Flash Fire Fire Blast (debatable, I consider Heatran somewhat more potent) are outclassed. Not to mention Heatran and Magnezone are slow and Gengar is anything but bulky. It can also hit 400 Attack if one chose to go physical, and the stat easily compares to Metagross, Salamence, Dragonite, and Tyranitar. Note that all these threats being outpowered or compared to would have to run a + nature. CAP10 would not. + offense natures hit 440 Attack and 437 Special Attack. A bit much.

There is nothing stopping CAP10 from running a + Speed and - either defense nature since it's already bulky and the Speed is used to outrun about 80% of the metagame. That means it can late game sweep without much issue. It can't be brought down via priority (not easily). It's fast so it outruns a lot of things it can potentially 2HKO and scores it on the switch in (if they switch in, debatable). I simply scanned your calcs, admittantly it is not the most professional thing to do but I don't have the luxury of time at the moment, and saw you didn't list potentially offensive calculations. Life Orb, I'm sure, could change a few of those KO's. You also neglect the second offense as a viable option to break certain walls like Blissey though I doubt something like Brick Break could score a 2HKO. Even if it isn't the main stat that got the boost it is usuable. That's why mix sets work on a lot of low second offense sets, such as Draco Meteor on Flygon and Mix Metagross.

If Download worked on a single opponent and went away I doubt many people would have a quarrel with it. I am one who wouldn't have any issues with it. However you have to see it gives CAP10 the ability to ignore it's mission object and become an offensive threat if someone chose it to be. Sure, that happens with a good chunk of our CAP's. There's Specs Fidget for christ's sake. However this CAP would have no trouble doing it where as the other CAP's are hindered a good amount. I don't think we're looking to go above and beyond with this one. That's why I'm against Download. It's better than a LOT of the other options suggested but it gives CAP10 options outside of being a utility counter.
 
Edit: @Maci12 - I have nothing against most custom abilities, but your Target (Pokemon Name) is going a little far in my opinion. We have to keep the mechanics of the Pokemon games in mind when we're designing CAPs. Smogon-created abilities like Rebound and Persistent would work in-game, but yours runs into problems. How would a player select which Pokemon to trap? Would they open some sort of menu and scroll through 493 choices? And what's the point of a Pokedex, now that this feature can reveal Pokemon that the player has not seen yet?

There is precedence in trapping abilities such as Magnet Pull and Shadow Tag, mapping out mechanics to trap a specific pokemon from there couldn't be too difficult. Thinking about how it would work in game isn't especially relevant; this pokemon isn't in the games. Regardless, in the games I imagine that it would work like you would catch CAP 10 and it would trap a random pokemon specifically. It's like in Team Builder where you can specify your Hidden Power, but you can't do so in the games. I think questioning how the mechanics would work in the game is irrelevant to how it would work competitively. I don't see how this is taking it "too far"; this ability isn't overpowered and it fits the concept of specifically countering one pokemon.

So the Pokemon CAP10 switched into is the targeted Pokemon and stays trapped until that Pokemon faints? Sounds like a Ingrain for your opponent which both sounds cool and down right horrifying at the same time.

I wasn't thinking along the lines of Ingrain, more along the lines of Shadow Tag, but only for a specific pokemon. In this way, the ability cannot be overpowered; it only targets one pokemon. This sticks to the concept, because a counter is something that can switch in and eliminate its target. With this ability, one specific pokemon would be unable to switch out while CAP 10 takes them out. Also, with the bulky stat distribution this CAP is going to get, switching in is easier than it is with other pokemon, so CAP 10 wouldn't be a revenge killer.
 
Sorry for not getting around to this earlier.

Now, first point I'd like to make - I'd like to make it quite clear that I am utterly opposed to any 'offensive' ability - this includes Adaptability, Download, Quick Feet, or any other such unfortunate ability, the reason for this being that I simply cannot see a single reason why we should go that route, especially when we have stormed in the opposite direction from the very first poll. That’s it. Out of the question. The maddening obsession which seems to be surfacing yet again, as it always does in the ability poll, is a dissatisfaction with the supposed offensive ability of the Pokemon, accompanied by a desire to 'seal the deal' in order to ensure that it gets all the necessary OHKOs - the net result being that our CAPmon functions much better as a bulky, offensive Pokemon, again and again and again. This isn't about offensive versatility, it's about defensive versatility, and we aren't going to achieve anything from this project by making a bulkier, faster Lucario.

The concept made it quite clear that what we were looking for is learning more about defensive versatility, yet for some people the message seems to have got across as being "a Pokemon that checks a lot of stuff". This isn't a utility counter, really. If it was we could learn more by studying Scizor, or Registeel in UU. It seems that for some members of the community the only way to get the job done is by increasing the offensive versatility, so that it can 'check' rather than 'counter' a wide variety of Pokemon. Regardless, I feel the original point still stands.

Now that that's out of the way, I feel I should move on to the abilities that seem popular; and like in most other areas of the project, I shall start by reviewing each one in a quantitative way, that is to say, exactly what and how many Pokemon are checked or countered to a greater extent using a specific ability. I believe that this is an extremely crucial stage in the proceedings, since as defensive as Deck Knight’s spread is, it and the Electric/Water typing simply cannot stand up to most of these threats at all. This may be remedied somewhat by the Speed of CAP10, to a certain extent, but we cannot rely solely on what basically amounts to revenge-killing in order to fulfil the concept – this is the easy and much less rewarding way out. So, to provide an apt defensive base, we must choose the abilities that give us maximum scope for dealing with threats.

First, we'll take the 45 Pokemon currently in OU:

Code:
[COLOR=black]Aerodactyl [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Azelf [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Blissey [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Breloom [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Bronzong [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Celebi [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Dragonite [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Dusknoir [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Electivire [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Empoleon [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Flygon [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Forretress [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Gengar [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Gliscor [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Gyarados [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Heatran [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Heracross [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Hippowdon [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Infernape [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Jirachi [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Jolteon [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Kingdra [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Latias [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Lucario [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Machamp [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Magnezone [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Mamoswine [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Metagross [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Ninjask [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Roserade [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Rotom-A[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Salamence [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Scizor [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Skarmory [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Smeargle [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Snorlax [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Starmie [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Suicune [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Swampert [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Tentacruel [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Togekiss [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Tyranitar [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Vaporeon [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Weavile [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Zapdos[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=black]Total: 45[/COLOR]

Now, it seems like a tall order that we can get one Pokemon to even soft counter all of these potential threats, however firstly we can shrink the ‘problem pool’ by a certain amount if we can remove those Pokemon that CAP10, by virtue of its stats and typing, can usually wall almost indefinitely. Thus, the number of Pokemon here shrinks by a considerable amount:

Code:
[COLOR=black]Azelf [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Breloom [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Celebi [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Dragonite [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Electivire [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Flygon [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Gliscor [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Gyarados [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Heatran [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Heracross [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Hippowdon [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Infernape [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Kingdra [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Latias [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Lucario [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Machamp [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Mamoswine [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Metagross [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Roserade [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Rotom-A[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Salamence [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Scizor [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Snorlax [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Swampert [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Tyranitar[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Zapdos[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=black]Total: 26[/COLOR]

Now things begin to look a bit more hopeful. If we examine all abilities under this radar, by which I mean, what pool of Pokemon specifically that they work best on, we can easily determine which ability (or two abilities) provides the best supplement to natural talent. Hence, starting with Trace:

Code:
[B][COLOR=black]TRACE[/COLOR][/B]
 
[COLOR=black]Blissey (Natural Cure)[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Bronzong (Levitate)[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Celebi (Natural Cure)[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Electivire (Motor Drive)[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Flygon (Levitate)[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Gyarados (Intimidate)[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Heatran (Flash Fire)[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Jolteon (Volt Absorb)[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Kingdra (Swift Swim)[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Magnezone (Magnet Pull)[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Salamence (Intimidate)[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Vaporeon (Water Absorb)[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Zapdos (Pressure)[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=black]Total: 13/45[/COLOR]

Looking at this table, I don’t like Trace for a number of reasons. Firstly, of the 13 Pokemon it gives CAP10 an advantage against, 5 of them are dealt with by simply the type combination. There are, however, some things of note in here. Crucially is the fact that you can actually beat Flygon by mimicking its Levitate trait, though equally you could just run Levitate yourself and save the pain. Gyarados, Heatran and Salamence are givens, as with Porygon2. Another plus point is that you can avoid Toxic or Thunder Wave from Blissey and Celebi, though in the latter’s case I’d much rather avoid Grass Knot. You can also get a boost from Electivire’s Motor Drive, but what I find particularly interesting here is that you can mimic Zapdos’s Pressure trait. Deck Knight noted that one of the weak points of his spread was that it was difficult to beat Zapdos, as you would inevitably be drawn into a PP-war that Zapdos had to win, due to Pressure, but Trace allows you to hit an even footing, meaning that with luck you can stall it out of Roosts and kill it (it really depends on the spread you’re running). But is the ability to beat Zapdos a reason to use it? Possibly. However, I much prefer:

Code:
[B][COLOR=black]INTIMIDATE[/COLOR][/B]
 
[COLOR=black]Aerodactyl[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Breloom[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Dragonite[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Electivire[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Flygon[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Gliscor[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Gyarados[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Heracross[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Hippowdon[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Infernape[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Kingdra[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Lucario[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Machamp[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Mamoswine[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Salamence[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Scizor[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Snorlax[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Swampert[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Tyranitar[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=black]Total: 19/45[/COLOR]

Swords Dancers are very, very popular, and Intimidate gives us a reliable way to beat them and other physical sweepers. The only downside, if you can call it that, is that it deals with such a great percentage of the tier, it is almost certainly always going to be the best ability to choose. Oh, and it also happens to be difficult to bluff with. But still, 18 out of 26 Pokemon is a fantastic amount – and allows CAP10 to check a vast amount more than otherwise possible. To this end, there are 19 OU Pokemon countered or checked by CAP10 naturally, and 18 checked with Intimidate, meaning that 37 out of 45 Pokemon in the OU tier are at least partially accounted for. The remainder – those being Azelf, Celebi, Heatran, Latias, Metagross, Roserade, Rotom-A, and Zapdos – are about as diverse as they come, and finding a way to beat them all one way or another is a difficult feat indeed.

Special Intimidate could work on all of them but Metagross, but I feel that, really, this is much the easiest way out. And that isn’t a good thing. I have never quite agreed with the idea of custom abilities (or moves, come to that), so personally I would prefer if alternative methods were looked at before we arrived at so sudden a conclusion.

First, Trace. Of the Pokemon mentioned above, three of them – Celebi, Heatran, and Zapdos – are more easily handled with Trace, but not to an extent where Trace becomes all that viable (although as previously mentioned it has some advantages against Pokemon that Intimidate also covers).

So, looking at another set of viable choice:

Code:
[B][COLOR=black]LEVITATE / FILTER / SOLID ROCK[/COLOR][/B]
 
[COLOR=black]Aerodactyl[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Breloom[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Celebi[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Dragonite[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Electivire[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Flygon[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Gliscor[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Gyarados[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Heatran[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Hippowdon[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Machamp[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Mamoswine[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Metagross[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Roserade[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Salamence[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Snorlax[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Swampert[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Tyranitar[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=black]Total: 18/45[/COLOR]

These three abilities have almost the same stopping power as Intimidate, but cater for a slightly different crowd than that ability.

It is interesting to note, actually, that although everybody seems to feel that Levitate is ‘too good’ from a defensive perspective, it actually covers less threats overall than either Intimidate or Filter, which is quite noteworthy. I would also like to issue an appeal to people to please not let their preconceptions blind them in this most crucial of polls. One thing that I have seen running rampant around the discussion thread is an utter, thriving bias against Levitate. I have absolutely no doubt that, for whatever they may say, some of these people seem influenced only by a desire to remove the stigma of the sceptics at the beginning of the project – that ‘Levitate was a given’ – and on the rebound from that statement simply cannot swallow their pride. There are genuinely good arguments against Levitate, and I would urge that those people who dismiss Earthquake would put these actual reasons (as Beej, for one, has done) in their posts, rather than simply stating “sorry, too good” and moving on. Quite simply, Levitate is a great ability for CAP10, giving us a much easier job switching in, and the ability to do even better against certain threats. I personally think that Intimidate is just as good, if not better, an ability to be used, and Levitate is not the sole antichrist that they would have us believe, and far more suited to the concept – much more so – than Filter or Solid Rock. But that’s just my opinion.

So, in conclusion, either Levitate or Intimidate for the primary ability. They both cover an extremely large amount of Pokemon in tandem with Cap10’s average talents (which are not definite by any means; the EV allocation is just as important for many of these threats, so do not EVER suggest that the ability brings about the Pokemon’s position – this is something I cannot stand), which means we have a much larger base to work on with the secondary ability, and can worry about that in detail later. Unless there isn’t going to be a secondary ability discussion, in which case I’ll have to post again. Could somebody enlighten me?
 
I think an ability similar to Speed Boost could work, but the Speed increase happens when the opponent switches out. If paired with an ability which does not show any signs upon switching in (such as Solid Rock/Filter) it could cause some serious mind games. If you bring it in on Salamence, they would have to choose whether to risk going for the EQ (which would not KO if CAP10 had Filter/Solid Rock) and get knocked out by the following Ice Beam, OR switch out into a counter to CAP10 (risking a speed boost if CAP10 has the proposed new ability).
 
To bugmaniacbob,

Trace isn't exactly helpful against Heatran. It provides an immunity to a type you already resist, boosts the power of moves Heatran is immune to, and provides no protection against Heatran's real threats: Earth Power and Toxic. I'd also question switching into Celebi just for Natural Cure, considering ~75% run grass moves and ~20% run max+ special attack.

Meanwhile, the main difference between Levitate and Filter is that Levitate allows CaP10 to simply wall many Pokemon straight up. What are Gyarados, Swampert, Heatran, Bronzong, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Metagross, or Mamoswine going to do to you when you resist their STABs and are immune to EQ/Earth Power? With Filter, you still need a fair amount of defensive investment to properly counter these Pokemon.
 
I think an ability similar to Speed Boost could work, but the Speed increase happens when the opponent switches out. If paired with an ability which does not show any signs upon switching in (such as Solid Rock/Filter) it could cause some serious mind games. If you bring it in on Salamence, they would have to choose whether to risk going for the EQ (which would not KO if CAP10 had Filter/Solid Rock) and get knocked out by the following Ice Beam, OR switch out into a counter to CAP10 (risking a speed boost if CAP10 has the proposed new ability).

What I really like about this is "does not show any signs upon switching in".

As someone mentioned earlier, part of countering is forcing the opponent to voluntarily switch out. Its all about mind games when you switch in to counter. I like the part that penguinX mentioned about his ability. The idea of two abilities, one that benefits CAP10 if the opponent switches and one that benefits CAP10 if it doesn't, that both do not immediately reveals themselves seems entirely feasible and works well with the concept.
 
Please stop suggesting newly created abilities. This CAP does not need one. There are already various abilities that can be proven useful to this CAP. We don't need any defensive Download ability or whatever else is being discussed.

Intimidate is probably one of the best abilities this CAP could use, and quite possibly most useful. Being able to make Pokemon like Dragon Dance Salamence and Gyarados and Swords Dance Lucario and Scizor lesser of a threat is huge in this physically-based metagame. It makes this CAP able to handle the aforementioned threats much easier, as a +1 Earthquake from Salamence and Gyarados or a +2 Close Combat from Lucario will deal massive damage; they can almost OHKO with a few entry hazards set up. Intimidate is too good to pass up, and so I believe it should most definitely be considered as one of CAP 10's abilities.

Levitate is a certainly interesting ability. I mean, who wouldn't want to be immune to Ground-type attacks and leave our CAP with one weakness that is relatively uncommon? The thing is, I don't see why we can't just use Intimidate. Yeah, we still take damage from Ground-type attacks, but Intimidate helps that well enough. Earthquake is the primary Ground-type attack in the OU metagame, and a lot of threats that use it can be taken out with one of CAP 10's attacks (Salamence + Ice Beam, Gyarados + Thunderbolt, Hippowdon + Surf). Intimidate won't entirely remove the Ground weakness, but it helps it accommodate that weakness to an extent where you don't need to worry too much about Earthquake. The only thing Levitate has that may be pretty useful over Intimidate is the fact that CAP 10 will be immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes (and being immune to Earth Power, but that's only commonly used by Heatran who is threatened by CAP 10 anyway). I'd say that's the only good reason, in fact, to choose Levitate over Intimidate.

All I have to say at the moment. I might post some more opinions later.
 
What I don't like about Intimidate is that it brings up the old hydra of being too good defensively. What it essentially means is that you have the functional equivalent of +1 Defense whenever you switch in to something not named Metagross or Gliscor (Hyper Cutter), so you can spend a lot of EV's in Special Defense and easy mode against attacking threats. It makes the silly canard of the 252/252 Defenses spread more viable.

What I like about Trace is it uses Intimidate on two specific high-ranking threats. Do you really need to Intimidate Lucario when the only thing it can hit you with after a Swords Dance is Extremespeed?

Levitate has other advantages than just the Ground immunity. Immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes are nothing to sneeze at either. You also need to remember that Magnet Rise is a perfectly viable solution to Ground attacks. What does Heatran do to you after you Trace Flash Fire and use Magnet Rise? All it has left is Toxic or Roar, and Toxic is hardly on every set. Roar forces you out but it's risky in the face of Water STAB. Given you have Trace you could later come in on Celebi or Blissey and be rid of it, which is another specific selling point of Trace.

One of the important things about this CAP is not countering everything at once. Intimidate and Levitate both facilitate a more "counter everything at once" approach to CAP10 by eradicating an entire class of threats (Physical attackers and Ground types, respectively) by their existence.

And as another fine point to bolster Trace, remember that its ability exists after you counter something, so for example if you swiped Levitate to finish off Rotom-A or Zong, you'd still have it if Mamoswine were to come in. The one-on-one matchups are very interesting, but Trace offers some dynamism based on your opponents team as well. Given that I made the stats I think they are versatile enough to stand on their own with no ability, but I like how Trace has some dynamic potential among heavy OU threats. It Intimidate's two very dangerous ones but it isn't always a reliable boost to your physical tanking ability. Similarly it provides a Ground Immunity you can use after you counter something, but isn't constantly there adding 10% of OU to your "hard countered" list.
 
Deck Knight said:
What I don't like about Intimidate is that it brings up the old hydra of being too good defensively. What it essentially means is that you have the functional equivalent of +1 Defense whenever you switch in to something not named Metagross or Gliscor (Hyper Cutter), so you can spend a lot of EV's in Special Defense and easy mode against attacking threats. It makes the silly canard of the 252/252 Defenses spread more viable.
Not quite, as it only applies to the threat you switch in against. As soon as they switch out after having been countered, the benefit of Intimidate is lost. Furthermore, you are not too good defensively, as even a -1 EQ from Mamoswine deals upwards of 70% to you with 252/252 defenses, a +0 EQ from Mence does roughly the same, and a +0 EQ from Gyarados does just a bit less as well. Furthermore, you cannot switch into MixMence haphazardly, as that Draco Meteor followed by a -1 EQ - if you're unprepared for it - will obliterate you. Intimidate also doesn't prepare you, as you so mentioned, against Metagross or Baton Pass Gliscor (rare), who proceed to beat you up royally once you come in. Even Lucario at -1 and using CC on the switch can 2HKO if you don't EV specifically to take the hits and avoid the 2HKO after rocks. The list, really, goes on.
Deck Knight said:
Levitate has other advantages than just the Ground immunity. Immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes are nothing to sneeze at either. You also need to remember that Magnet Rise is a perfectly viable solution to Ground attacks. What does Heatran do to you after you Trace Flash Fire and use Magnet Rise? All it has left is Toxic or Roar, and Toxic is hardly on every set. Roar forces you out but it's risky in the face of Water STAB. Given you have Trace you could later come in on Celebi or Blissey and be rid of it, which is another specific selling point of Trace.
I agree with your points against Levitate, although surely you see how silly your case for Trace is. What is Heatran's (even boosted) Fire Blast doing to our excellent defenses anyways - especially when resisted? Not enough to 2HKO, that's for sure. (For the record, it's actually 33.8% - 39.9% from a +1 Heatran Fire Blast against a 252/0 CAP10) And again, as you said, Magnet Rise makes Earth Power fruitless. There's no need for Levitate or Trace against him.
Deck Knight said:
And as another fine point to bolster Trace, remember that its ability exists after you counter something, so for example if you swiped Levitate to finish off Rotom-A or Zong, you'd still have it if Mamoswine were to come in. The one-on-one matchups are very interesting, but Trace offers some dynamism based on your opponents team as well. Given that I made the stats I think they are versatile enough to stand on their own with no ability, but I like how Trace has some dynamic potential among heavy OU threats. It Intimidate's two very dangerous ones but it isn't always a reliable boost to your physical tanking ability. Similarly it provides a Ground Immunity you can use after you counter something, but isn't constantly there adding 10% of OU to your "hard countered" list.
Yes, it does provide some quaint dynamics in some cases, but it is also utterly worthless against a large list of threats that you become complete fodder towards without a reliable Intimidate. Machamp, Lucario, Infernape, Breloom, Heracross, Hippowdon, Physical Jirachi, Kingdra (I'd much rather Intimidate it than get Swift Swim), Mamoswine, Scizor, Snorlax, Swampert, Tyranitar, and Weavile are all not quite countered by Intimidate, but no longer render CAP10 as useless as it would be with Trace.

You're convinced that Intimidate makes it too defensive, and I assure you, do the calculations and you will find that to not be the case. A CAP without Intimidate, however, and instead with Trace, will find itself simply ineffective at switching into the numerous things I listed above and will be far less versatile and useful for its team. I want CAP10 to be a useful and contributing member of the team, even when nothing it is tech'd to counter is on the opponent's team.
 
...allright, I hate to directly contradict what Fuzznip just asked, but... here I go. -.-'

I would like to make an argument for a new ability, called (for theoretical purposes, and because I have no creativity) Auto-Taunt. The idea is to prevent anyone from setting up on CAP-10 simply by switching it in. The Auto-Taunt would prevent any non-attacking move on the turn that CAP-10 switches in, and ONLY on that turn. After CAP-10 has switched in, the foe is free to use non-attacking moves once again. I haven't decided whether or not it should be activated when CAP-10 is the first Pokemon sent out, or if this should be the case when it is sent in after one of its allies is KOed.

Uses of Auto-Taunt:

Anti-SR Lead: As a lead (?) or by switching into an opposing lead, it effectively halts SR setup as it switches in. It can then immediately threaten whatever types of leads it wants to, depending on how much it wants to counter specific leads. One specific usage could be to block and counter the nigh-unstoppable Taunt-SR Aerodactyl lead, which could be ruined by switching in and could immediately threatened with Water STAB.

Anti-Wall: Can be used to counter a wall to an extent in any number of ways. It can stop recovery by switching in on Blissey's Softboiled and threaten with physical moves, switch in on Blissey's T-Wave or Toxic and escape unscathed, or keep Blissey from healing a team with Aromatherapy. I use Blissey as a specific example because I personally always have trouble with Blissey, but it could be used against any number of other walls, statusers, etc. like Celebi, Skarmory, Bronzong, Forretress, Zapdos, and so forth.

Anti-Setup Sweeper: Probably the best reason to use this ability, as it can switch in on the Swords Dances or Dragon Dances of all of the most threatening OU sweepers who use the moves, block their setup on that turn, and immediately threaten their unboosted attack power with its supereffective move of choice. Forcing switches is how so many sweepers often set themselves up, preventing them from doing that WHILE switching is an excellent answer to the problem presented. Lucario, Salamence, Scizor, Gyarados, Kingdra, (as well as CM sweepers like Latias and Suicune if switched in early enough) and any others are all effectively countered by this ability.

Here's a list of OU threats who can be consistently countered with proper prediction when they are running one of their common sets:
Code:
[COLOR=black]Aerodactyl [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Azelf [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Blissey [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Breloom [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Bronzong [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Celebi [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Dragonite [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Dusknoir [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Empoleon [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Forretress [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Gliscor [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Gyarados [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Kingdra [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Latias (non-choice variants only)[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Lucario [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Machamp [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Magnezone [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Ninjask [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Roserade [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Rotom-A[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Salamence [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Scizor [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Skarmory [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Smeargle [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Snorlax [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Suicune [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Swampert [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Tentacruel [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Togekiss [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Vaporeon [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Zapdos[/COLOR] 
[COLOR=black]Total: 33/45[/COLOR]

Pros and Cons of Auto-Taunt

Pros
- stopping sweepers from setting up-- the BIG reason to use an ability like this. Against something like SD Lucario, whose +2 Attack Extremespeed it might normally have a problem with otherwise (assuming no Intimidate), it can switch in, stop the SD, and immediately threaten with STAB or maybe supereffective attacks.
- SR prevention. Don't like Rapid Spin? Now you have an ability that assures you won't need it. CAP-10 can be specifically geared to counter leads with this ability by running offensive moves that counter common SR leads, or else Skarmory / Forretress, etc. In that sense, it has a set that is offensive in nature, but defensive in purpose, still sticking true to CAP-10's concept.
- Countering Walls. Walls that like to heal themselves, like Blissey and Skarmory, instantly become that much less capable of surviving on CAP-10's switchin, due to it being faster. Switch on the healing move when the foe is at low health, and due to CAP-10's superior speed, it can effectively finish them off (or scare them away) with the ability.
- Countering non-physical sweepers. Intimidate, while a great ability, fails to counter special attackers. Although special setup sweepers are less prevalent in OU than physical ones are, this still makes it a valid option against the likes of CM Latias or CM Suicune (providing you switch in before they get one up). Sub-Petaya Agility Empoleon is also screwed by the ability.
- Anti-Status. Can also switch into status-using walls like Rotom and pose a threat, forcing a switch or whatever else. This prevents CAP-10 from being able to pose a threat by being crippled by paralysis, or even something like Trick-- on the turn that it switches in, at least.
- It has cons. The fact that the ability HAS cons is, ironically, a pro in and of itself. It means that it isn't TOO good, unlike an ability such as Shadow Tag.

Cons
- only usable on the first turn of switching in. This means that against someone like Celebi, it can switch in and prevent Celebi from healing itself or its team, Leech Seeding, T-Waving, or using any of the number of support options that Celebi has, but if it fails to directly threaten Celebi, (say for instance, it's built to counter someone like Gyarados, and doesn't have an Ice or Fire move that can OHKO it or anything) Celebi can just as easily continue with its business after CAP-10 has switched in. That is, even though it can mess with a lot of common OU threats, it still fails to effectively counter ALL of them, even WITH the ability. (...okay, I guess this is technically two cons. Either way...)
- useless against Choice users. Against someone like Scarf Flygon or Band Scizor, the ability does absolutely nothing to hinder the Poke CAP-10 switches in on. Even against Scarfers with Trick, it's often extremely difficult to predict when they will do so (often, you don't know that the Pokemon is even running a Scarf at all, as is the case with Scarf Rotom).
- requires lots of prediction. The amount of prediction required varies from Poke to Poke, but the ability is designed such that it can be beaten by having superior prediction than the person using CAP-10. It's a good ability, but it's not so good that anyone can abuse it without fear.
Ex: User1 sends in CAP-10 against a Salamence, expecting Dragon Dance, but... User2 predicts User1's switch and uses Earthquake instead, putting a large dent in CAP-10's health, if not KOing.
- pre-existing made up auto-ability. From an aesthetic standpoint, creating ANOTHER auto-something-on-the-switchin ability is not so great and quite unoriginal, since you guys just did this for Colossoil. =\ (All the same, I think it has a lot of potential for CAP-10's purpose.)

This is my proposal for a possible ability for CAP-10, Auto-Taunt. I would also propose Magic Guard or Intimidate as abilities that could be used in place of or alongside Auto-Taunt.

Please give me your thoughts on this, I want to know if people think it's a good idea, bad idea, or if a custom ability should just be avoided regardless (as is apparently the case with several people, sorry bringing ANOTHER one to the table on that note). =0
 
Maci, I hate to contradict you, but game mechanics should be kept in mind when designing a CAP. It's a matter of principle - if your proposed ability would allow a player to target a Pokemon they haven't even seen yet in game, than who's to say what is out of bounds? We might as well make a Pokemon with five moveslots, or invent a new type. Also, if your idea was adopted, the programmers for the CAP network would have to add a whole new menu to the selection screen for your Pokemon, which would be a ton of work. As to your mention of Hidden Power type selection, you've got a crucial fact wrong. A user selects the type of hidden power he or she would like, and the game generates IVs that would produce it. In any case, a menu containing seventeen types is a lot more manageable than one containing 493 Pokemon, so I'm not sure where you were going with that example.
 
Not quite, as it only applies to the threat you switch in against. As soon as they switch out after having been countered, the benefit of Intimidate is lost. Furthermore, you are not too good defensively, as even a -1 EQ from Mamoswine deals upwards of 70% to you with 252/252 defenses, a +0 EQ from Mence does roughly the same, and a +0 EQ from Gyarados does just a bit less as well. Furthermore, you cannot switch into MixMence haphazardly, as that Draco Meteor followed by a -1 EQ - if you're unprepared for it - will obliterate you. Intimidate also doesn't prepare you, as you so mentioned, against Metagross or Baton Pass Gliscor (rare), who proceed to beat you up royally once you come in. Even Lucario at -1 and using CC on the switch can 2HKO if you don't EV specifically to take the hits and avoid the 2HKO after rocks. The list, really, goes on.

Why would you switch it into any of those things if you weren't EV'd for them? Why would you switch into Mamoswine period, unless you were baiting Ice Shard, given that Intimidate is effectively worthless as you're still comfortably 2HKO'd, or OHKO'd by CB or LO MixSwine? Intimidate makes CAP10 counter a vast portion of the metagame all at once, the physical portion specifically. It's really rather the point of CAP10 that if you haven't EV'd for some specific kinds of threats you won't counter them. Magnet Rise makes Mamo EQ a non-issue.

I agree with your points against Levitate, although surely you see how silly your case for Trace is. What is Heatran's (even boosted) Fire Blast doing to our excellent defenses anyways - especially when resisted? Not enough to 2HKO, that's for sure. (For the record, it's actually 33.8% - 39.9% from a +1 Heatran Fire Blast against a 252/0 CAP10) And again, as you said, Magnet Rise makes Earth Power fruitless. There's no need for Levitate or Trace against him.

You seem to vacillate between calling the defenses excellent and calling them mediocre. What I know is a Heatran Fire Blast does 0% to a CAP10 with Trace, serving as a thorn in Scarftran's side at least. In any case I don't think 252 HP EV's is practical, you probably get a better overall walling effect from 124 in each.

Yes, it does provide some quaint dynamics in some cases, but it is also utterly worthless against a large list of threats that you become complete fodder towards without a reliable Intimidate. Machamp, Lucario, Infernape, Breloom, Heracross, Hippowdon, Physical Jirachi, Kingdra (I'd much rather Intimidate it than get Swift Swim), Mamoswine, Scizor, Snorlax, Swampert, Tyranitar, and Weavile are all not quite countered by Intimidate, but no longer render CAP10 as useless as it would be with Trace.

And what the heck is physical Jirachi doing? Praying for Flinchax on 4x reisted Iron Head? It doesn't even get Earthquake or a physical Grass move. It's the same with Kingdra, in order for DD Kingdra to do damage it's only real option is Outrage, which locks it in and it's not nearly as scary as Salamence. Thunder Wave will cripple it with little difficulty. All Intimidate does is make it far, far too easy to EV and survive these physical threats while still retaining a large degree of special bulk. Of the pokemon you'd actually switch into to counter, half don't want to play the Surf/Magnet Rise game choosing between EQ and Roar, and the other half hate paralysis with a passion. Intimidate is a bit too reliable. It completely shuts down the physical portion of the metagame long enough for you to either Paralyze them or wipe them out with Surf/Waterfall. Does Infernape really want to bet you aren't Scarved after it uses CC?

You're convinced that Intimidate makes it too defensive, and I assure you, do the calculations and you will find that to not be the case. A CAP without Intimidate, however, and instead with Trace, will find itself simply ineffective at switching into the numerous things I listed above and will be far less versatile and useful for its team. I want CAP10 to be a useful and contributing member of the team, even when nothing it is tech'd to counter is on the opponent's team.

You seem to want CAP10 to be a staple on every team, which is not part of the concept. If it's useful to every team because it's a fast, bulky mofo with one of the best defensive abilities in the game, what makes it a Utility Counter rather than the next greatest thing to hit bulky offense?

EDIT: RE: Download: Don't forget that it's a free +1 Boost, but your attack/SpA doesn't stop there. the Doomsday Sweeper might not be running Leftovers, it could be running Choice Band, Choice Specs, or Life Orb. If running Band/Specs and a +Spe Nature, a Defense might be pretty weak but you end up with 600Atk or 595 SpA and 330 Spe. CBGross/Tar or Latias certainly can't claim THAT. If you run a set like Waterfall/Ice Punch/Thunderbolt/Surf, you're basically guaranteed that whatever you happen to be facing is probably in for a world of hurt, even on the attack you didn't invest in.
 
Sorry for not getting around to this earlier.

Code:
[B][COLOR=black]INTIMIDATE[/COLOR][/B]
 
[COLOR=black]Aerodactyl[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Breloom[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Dragonite[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Electivire[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Flygon[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Gliscor[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Gyarados[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Heracross[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Hippowdon[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Infernape[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Kingdra[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Lucario[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Machamp[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Mamoswine[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Salamence[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Scizor[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Snorlax[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Swampert[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Tyranitar[/COLOR]
 
[COLOR=black]Total: 19/45[/COLOR]
Swords Dancers are very, very popular, and Intimidate gives us a reliable way to beat them and other physical sweepers. The only downside, if you can call it that, is that it deals with such a great percentage of the tier, it is almost certainly always going to be the best ability to choose. Oh, and it also happens to be difficult to bluff with. But still, 18 out of 26 Pokemon is a fantastic amount – and allows CAP10 to check a vast amount more than otherwise possible. To this end, there are 19 OU Pokemon countered or checked by CAP10 naturally, and 18 checked with Intimidate, meaning that 37 out of 45 Pokemon in the OU tier are at least partially accounted for. The remainder – those being Azelf, Celebi, Heatran, Latias, Metagross, Roserade, Rotom-A, and Zapdos – are about as diverse as they come, and finding a way to beat them all one way or another is a difficult feat indeed.

I also agree with the combination of special and physical intimidate.
 
Why would you switch it into any of those things if you weren't EV'd for them? Why would you switch into Mamoswine period, unless you were baiting Ice Shard, given that Intimidate is effectively worthless as you're still comfortably 2HKO'd, or OHKO'd by CB or LO MixSwine? Intimidate makes CAP10 counter a vast portion of the metagame all at once, the physical portion specifically. It's really rather the point of CAP10 that if you haven't EV'd for some specific kinds of threats you won't counter them. Magnet Rise makes Mamo EQ a non-issue.



You seem to vacillate between calling the defenses excellent and calling them mediocre. What I know is a Heatran Fire Blast does 0% to a CAP10 with Trace, serving as a thorn in Scarftran's side at least. In any case I don't think 252 HP EV's is practical, you probably get a better overall walling effect from 124 in each.



And what the heck is physical Jirachi doing? Praying for Flinchax on 4x reisted Iron Head? It doesn't even get Earthquake or a physical Grass move. It's the same with Kingdra, in order for DD Kingdra to do damage it's only real option is Outrage, which locks it in and it's not nearly as scary as Salamence. Thunder Wave will cripple it with little difficulty. All Intimidate does is make it far, far too easy to EV and survive these physical threats while still retaining a large degree of special bulk. Of the pokemon you'd actually switch into to counter, half don't want to play the Surf/Magnet Rise game choosing between EQ and Roar, and the other half hate paralysis with a passion. Intimidate is a bit too reliable. It completely shuts down the physical portion of the metagame long enough for you to either Paralyze them or wipe them out with Surf/Waterfall. Does Infernape really want to bet you aren't Scarved after it uses CC?



You seem to want CAP10 to be a staple on every team, which is not part of the concept. If it's useful to every team because it's a fast, bulky mofo with one of the best defensive abilities in the game, what makes it a Utility Counter rather than the next greatest thing to hit bulky offense?

I agree completely with pretty much everything you've said here. A lot of people are very self-contridictory with their ability suggestions, showing how much the ability helps counter the things most threatening to the CaP while ignoring what it does to things only somewhat threatening to the CaP. Between Magnet Rise (which seems like a given) and the options available to this Pokemon (afraid of DD Salamence EQ? Strap on choice scarf. Lucario +2 CC, switch in before it can hit you with that. Mamoswine EQ? Try a resist berry. We seem to be trying to solve everything with the ability, but once you throw items, moves, evs, and natures on top of that, its a whole other story. Besides, any physically defensive CaP shouldn't be able to switch into a Mamoswine EQ. Thats ridiculous, and completely counter concept. Intimidate just means that you can take a lot more hits, hard or soft counter, and come out with a lot more health, meaning you can counter a lot more (Counter Concept!)

I'm still not a huge fan of Trace. I can see where it definitely has merit, but without a Secondary ability that fills a lot of the holes left by Trace, I think that it isn't right for this CaP.
 
I'm still not a huge fan of Trace. I can see where it definitely has merit, but without a Secondary ability that fills a lot of the holes left by Trace, I think that it isn't right for this CaP.
Intimidate seems to be in really high favor at the moment, with most arguments against it being highly ineffective. Intimidate might help it counter a few more things than it was designed to, but considering sets, EVs, and movepools that need to be taken into consideration, CAP10 isn't going to counter the entire metagame with one set and you'll certainly want to preserve it for that one thing it was tailored to countered.

Please give me your thoughts on this, I want to know if people think it's a good idea, bad idea, or if a custom ability should just be avoided regardless (as is apparently the case with several people, sorry bringing ANOTHER one to the table on that note). =0
Sorry buddy, but this is not the project for your idea. Auto-Taunt has no relevance to CAP's primary function as an anti-sweeper and considering the fact that Beej posted earlier saying that he's not really looking for a custom ability (which is why I groan every time you repost this), you have almost no chance of passing this.

If no one's responding by now, we're clearly not interested, and you should probably take that as a sign to stop pushing this idea, and start contributing to the ones already on the table.
 
Intimidate seems to be in really high favor at the moment, with most arguments against it being highly ineffective.
It's a high candidate but Deck Knight and some of the others against it have proven points. I think it's viable but I don't think it's vital. It's definitely better than Download, Filter, or any of the suggested custom abilities. Since this whole concept was chosen Trace has just stuck out. It counters only specific threats. And only if you have the Ev build for it. It also leaves tons of the metagame untouched. There are not many reasons not to use it.
 
This discussion has gone on for long enough. I've decided on the slate, and the poll will be up shortly.
 
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