CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 5c - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Matthew]

I find it silly that we have to make this pokemon immune to everything, even though that does make it fulfill its concept. It should be able to switch-in reliably to threats and then force it out or KO it. Sure it might be cool to have this pokemon safe from everything under the sun, but if it was that big of an issue then we should have thought about these weaknesses during the typing polls. It shouldn't be "well now that we have a Water/Electrice pokemon we should make up for all those statuses that can affect us!". Hardly all of those statuses are damaging to the point where this CAP cannot fulfill its role, except for perhaps Paralysis. Burn damage only deals 12% every turn and cuts your Attack in half, however I doubt that a physical moveset is going to be better than a special one considering its STABes. Freeze damage happens at random intervals, which is something that Shield Dust may stop (along with Confusion from Machamp). Sleep, while destructive on its own, can be countered with Sleep Talk. "But Sleep Talk only makes this CAP effective against whatever the other two moves are" Well no duh, but that's the concept. As for Leech Seed we (or I have anyway) decided that this pokemon is not going to counter a Grass-type pokemon as there is already a perfectly good counter to them with Heatran. I missed poison as I think that poison is probably the most deadly status in the game, and as such we should give it poison heal.

"With Poison Heal and Toxic Orb it gains double leftover recovery" Well yes, that's merely an effect of Poison Heal, and in no situation can I think of is that extra healing going to save you from either KOing a pokemon or just not getting KOed yourself.

 

[Str0ngbad]

I think I understand the concept of it well enough. It may be more the way it was introduced as an 'anti-status ability' that is throwing me off and you know what they say about first impressions. Anyway, it makes sense but I'm still not on board yet. I feel like the best thing about magic guard is its bypass of entry hazards and this new ability doesn't bring that to the table. For now I like the idea a lot better without the leech-seed being thrown in as it still seems out of place by itself among a bunch of status immunities.

This may be too similar to Magic Guard but what if we had an ability that protected from indirect damage except that which was self-inflicted. Similar to Clear Body I guess. That would bring all (almost; Machamp) of the useful things that Magic Guard offers to the table without allowing it a free offensive boost. This is more thinking out loud than an actual suggestion but I think an ability akin to 'anti-status' that manages to mimic Magic Guard to a healthy extent could be great if the community will provide suggestions to make it better.

Genny: You really can't imagine any scenario where 1/8 of your life might be enough to save you from a 2HKO or 1/4 might save you from a 3?

 

[Rising_Dusk]

"With Poison Heal and Toxic Orb it gains double leftover recovery" Well yes, that's merely an effect of Poison Heal, and in no situation can I think of is that extra healing going to save you from either KOing a pokemon or just not getting KOed yourself.

Below are just some examples I could think of offhand. In Metagross' case, you will be 3HKO'd on average with Toxic Orb assuming it's already been activated. You are now 4HKO'd on average by ScarfTar's EQ, and standard Breloom's Seed Bomb even fails to 2HKO you now. If you insist, I can find several more instances where the added healing would benefit CAP10 - I feel - too much.

252/252 Bold Toxic Orb Pokemon 
  
  vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Metagross Earthquake  : 55.7% - 65.6%
  vs. 252 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar Earthquake  : 38.7% - 45.8%
  vs. 252 Adamant Toxic Orb Breloom Seed Bomb  : 50.2% - 59.3%

 

[Anachronism]

I would like to point out that using Modest on CAP 10 is unrealistic, as is using 252 HP/252+ sets for calcs. using Timid or 0/252 is much more likely. If you use 0/252 on those calcs then you will see that those KOs are guaranteed even with Poison Heal.

At the same time I recognize the validity of Rising Dusk's argument. While it isn't as fast as Starmie, it has better typing (that also gives STAB Electric), more bulk and the choice of 2 good abilities (it appears we are leaning toward that), although you do lose out on some power. Recognize that because it doesn't have STAB Thunderbolt Starmie misses out on guaranteed KOs on Suicune and Skarmory, among others.

Regarding the secondary ability, I think we want Intimidate here. We missed out last time but we can still make it happen this time.

I know that custom abilities are unlikely, but I would like to once again bring up "Expert." I think that to beat the things it wants to counter this CAP is going to need a bit of extra power. This is a much more balanced ability than something like download where the power can be used to sweep. On the contrary a set like Water/Electric/Ice/Recovery misses out on hitting a large portion of the metagame super-effectively, so don't expect it to sweep.

I don't support Poison Heal or a custom status immunity ability. What percentage of the top threats use status? Basically, it is only stuff like Cresselia and Celebi that aren't sweeping. I would much rather have an ability that stops stuff like Lucario, Tyranitar, etc.: things that actually force a response. Statusers are more mildly annoying than likely to sweep you clean.

 

[familyguyman]

Let's see what Trace helps us cover in order to derive a complementary ability.

Trace helps take on Jolteon, Salamence, Gyarados, Flygon, Heatran, Vaporeon, Kingdra to an extent, Blissey, Celebi, Magnezone and Bronzong (possibly more).

Major threats we are missing are Scizor, Tyranitar, Rotom, Metagross, Jirachi, Infernape, Lucario, Latias, Gengar, Swampert and Starmie. Status Abusers can be big time annoyances too.

Of those, I see Tyranitar, Rotom, Metagross, Latias and Swampert giving the most trouble. Infernape, Gengar and Lucario would be secondary threats on that list. Starmie and Jirachi won't be too hard to stop other than T-bolt and Grass Knot and Scizor's threat is U-Turn which you can't counter anyway.

While Intimidate does handle Tyranitar, Swampert, Infernape and Lucario (and eases Scizor a bit), CAP10 won't be hurting Tyranitar and Swampert much in return outside of specific moves (Super Power or Grass Knot or whatever). Latias, Rotom and Metagross don't care about Intimidate at all. That being said, it is a good option, but maybe a bit too strong as it overlaps with Trace coverage a lot.

Two interesting choices are Motor Drive and Volt Absorb. The reason being that Thunder Wave and the T-Bolts from Rotom, Starmie occasionally Latias and Gengar can all useful now. That helps cover some status and a few moves here and there.

Levitate is an obvious choice too but, like most here, I feel is too strong when paired with the stats and typing we're using. This would make CAP10 into a big time wall, which is not the goal here.

I don't really like Filter because it doesn't really do all that much. It might save the occasional OHKO or 2HKO but until I see some good calcs, I'm not on board.


I'll also bring up the Custom Ability I suggested way back but, due to incorrect information, my justification was wrong. Now, I feel, it can fit.

The idea would be an ability that copies Recycle at the end of each turn. The point being that now you can basically buy neutrality to Ground or Grass moves with a type resist berry or you can use a Lum berry for status immunity. A Sitrus berry or stat boosting berry can also make for interesting combinations with recovery moves. The goal of this ability is to help us tailor the item to handle some threats to a degree, without going to far, at the cost of Leftovers and the like.

 

[Seizen]

Out of curiousity, why are we considering Status the worst thing to hit CAP10, now that Trace is our Primary Ability? Secondly, and I've never worked this out: are Sleep-immune Pokemon able to run Rest, and if so, how does that work?

 

[familyguyman]

Out of curiousity, why are we considering Status the worst thing to hit CAP10, now that Trace is our Primary Ability? Secondly, and I've never worked this out: are Sleep-immune Pokemon able to run Rest, and if so, how does that work?

No, Vital Spirit style ability Pokemon cannot Rest. Hydration can use Rest in Rain and I assume Leaf Guard can too.

 

[beej]

Alright, I know I specified (though UD) that I was going to be less restrictive as to what would go into the secondary ability poll, but I did NOT mean that this was an opportunity to start presenting every custom ability that comes into your head. I'm going to make my view on custom abilities for this CAP very clear now so that there isn't anymore confusion within this thread.

We do not need a custom ability to create a cohesive Pokemon that fulfills its concept. Custom abilities present a way to cut corners with our creative thinking for the sake of fulfilling the concept in a contrived way.

In CAP, we strive to learn about competitive Pokemon through both the creation AND playtesting of created Pokemon. The ability is a crucial part of the creation process, and by making an ability that fits the concept to a T, we are basically choosing to not explore potential within the existing game mechanics. I don't take this very lightly at all. For this reason, I'm going to ask that people stop submitting all of these custom ability ideas.

I might make a post tonight about potential ability candidates. This is all I really wanted to say for now.

 

[Dominion]

Magic Guard does make this CAP fairly strong in the offensive catagroy. And from what i've heard from people, they would simply do a Life Orb+Magic Guard combo. This CAP will sadly never be able to use Magic Guard defensively due to people alwasy wanting to take advantage of the offensive capabilities. That disheartens me, as it -is- an amazing choice for this CAP.

Shed Skin makes Rest almost too powerful on this CAP, expecially considering it's already high potiential defense.

I support Volt Absorb as there are no abilities that come to mind that not only help this CAP but are as useful as Trace. Trace does what intimidate does to the worst targets. Intimidate is also too general for this CAP. Volt Absorb keeps Paralysis off of this CAP, which is a huge weakness due to this CAP's amazing speed. Also, considering the popularity of Rotom and the "Boltbeam" combo, Paralysis is rather common, or atleast more common than it ought to be.

Volt Absorb also helps this CAP get into the fight without wracking up too much indirect damage from things like Stealth Rock/Spikes without being too easy to manipulate. gaining 25% HP back is still only 12.5% hp back after Stealth Rock. I suggest Volt over Water Absorb because Water Absorb isn't as amazing as it seems. There are few water moves flying around due to few pokemon in the current metagame that are weak to it.

Weak to Water:
Heatran
Infernape
Gliscor
Mamoswine
Hippowdon
Tyranitar
Aerodactyl

Resistant:
Celebi
Breloom
Roserade
Dragonite
Salamence
Kingdra
Gyarados
Starmie
Suicune
Tentacruel
Vaporeon (Immune and Absorbant)

Because of this, Water Absorb isn't very useful as most teams will have a pokemon to absorb water moves anyway, and don't forget many pokemon with Water moves carry either Status or coverage, typically Grass. Trace would be prodominant in this scenario.

Thus, Volt Absorb is much more useful to this CAP and for the metagame.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

If custom abilities are on the table I kind of like the idea of an ability that negates negative priority (I.E. Whirlwind/ Roar)

If not I like Magic Guard a lot. No SR, Spikes, Weather Damage? Seems like a really good ability for something thats going to be switching in a lot.

 

[Scoopapa]

I support Marvel Scale as an option for dealing with status without being too powerful (Magic Guard). On a pokemon with these Defenses, a single defense boost could go a long way. I also strongly support Shed Skin, as it means it will pretty much always win Toxic wars with things that don't have Rest, opening it up to counter threats that would normally stall the crap out of it, while also helping it get rid of other status in other situations. Finally, Hydration could be used for somewhat limited status immunity, since CAP10 also wont mind having it's Surfs boosted, 100% accurate Thunders, and no Sandstorm damage.

 

[Staraptor Call]

If Magic Guard were CAP10's secondary ability, do you think anyone would use Trace? With Magic Guard, you trade an easier time beating a set of for a complete immunity, and in fact a benefit from, a whole class of moves. Trace will give CAP10 an easier time against Jolteon, Gyarados, Flygon, Blissey, Salamence, Heatran, Vaporeon, Celebi, Kingdra, Bronzong and Magnezone. However, that is only 11 Pokemon out of ~45 OUs, and Trace by no means makes CAP10 perfect counters for those Pokemon. But consider how much better Magic Guard is: it makes CAP10 actually benefit from Poison, and, for Special sets, Burn as well. Magic Guard would give CAP10 immunities to Leech Seed and to a whole host of rarely-used passive damage effects. Most importantly, Magic Guard gives a complete immunity to all entry hazards, letting CAP10 switch out as it pleases and making it an excellent Pokemon to use against stall as well as offense. And as the damage calculations on the first page show, a Doomsday Sweeper CAP10 with a Life Orb has huge potential, especially when it can switch in and out without having to deal with Entry Hazards. Magic Guard is so much better than Trace that nobody would use Trace at all.

Marvel Scale would let CAP10 handle status inducers while not being broken like Magic Guard. It would not encourage sweeping sets the way Magic Guard would, but would instead promote a defensive role for CAP10.

 

[Objection]

I find it silly that we have to make this pokemon immune to everything, even though that does make it fulfill its concept.

Actually, no it doesn't. The concept is to counter only a few things at once while having the capability of countering many things. Being immune to everything just helps CAP10 counter loads more at once.

The ability is a crucial part of the creation process, and by making an ability that fits the concept to a T, we are basically choosing to not explore potential within the existing game mechanics.

And by simply choosing an ability that allows us to explore potential within the existing game mechanics, we deviate from the concept. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the idea of making CAP10 a utility counter to see if a utility counter is actually viable in the OU metagame? In which case, shouldn't we be ensuring that CAP10's abilities are relevant to the concept rather than just being generic all-round useful like Intimidate and Levitate and Magic Guard? The problem is, I haven't seen a single post in this thread that suggests a non-custom ability and then explains how it helps CAP10 fit the concept, so I am not convinced that any of the suggested secondary abilities is the right one to pick. Therefore, here's my novel idea: no secondary ability.

 

[Rhys29]

Beej's post

Alright, I know I specified (though UD) that I was going to be less restrictive as to what would go into the secondary ability poll, but I did NOT mean that this was an opportunity to start presenting every custom ability that comes into your head. I'm going to make my view on custom abilities for this CAP very clear now so that there isn't anymore confusion within this thread.

We do not need a custom ability to create a cohesive Pokemon that fulfills its concept. Custom abilities present a way to cut corners with our creative thinking for the sake of fulfilling the concept in a contrived way.

In CAP, we strive to learn about competitive Pokemon through both the creation AND playtesting of created Pokemon. The ability is a crucial part of the creation process, and by making an ability that fits the concept to a T, we are basically choosing to not explore potential within the existing game mechanics. I don't take this very lightly at all. For this reason, I'm going to ask that people stop submitting all of these custom ability ideas.

I might make a post tonight about potential ability candidates. This is all I really wanted to say for now.

This is exactly what I am seeing and I'm glad I didn't have to be the one to say this first. The first poll was good because many of the suggested custom abilities were either generally ignored, talked out of being viable or suggested, and didn't have any effect on the results. So why does everyone feel we need one now?

tl;dr Magic Guard supporting post

Let's take a look at say the top 30 OU threats (random number).

#1. Scizor
#2. Tyranitar
#3. Salamence
#4. Heatran
#5. Latias
- Rotom-a
#6. Gyarados
#7. Jirachi
#8. Metagross
#9. Gengar
#10. Swampert
#11. Lucario
#12. Infernape
#13. Rotom-h
#14. Starmie
#15. Blissey
#16. Gliscor
#17. Azelf
#18. Magnezone
#19. Skarmory
#20. Vaporeon
#21. Suicune
#22. Breloom
#23. Machamp
#24. Flygon
#25. Celebi
#26. Zapdos
#27. Dragonite
#28. Jolteon
#29. Forretress
#30. Kingdra

Now we can remove threats Trace deals with effectively. I will also use asterisks (*) to show which abilities will not directly help CAP10 deal with the threat but can still be beneficial.

#1. Scizor
#2. Tyranitar
#5. Latias*
- Rotom-a*
#7. Jirachi*
#8. Metagross
#9. Gengar*
#10. Swampert*
#11. Lucario
#12. Infernape
#13. Rotom-h*
#14. Starmie*
#16. Gliscor
#17. Azelf*
#19. Skarmory
#21. Suicune
#22. Breloom
#23. Machamp
#25. Celebi*
#26. Zapdos
#27. Dragonite
#29. Forretress

Seeing this, the main threats that need to be dealt with are Scizor, Tyranitar, Metagross, Lucario, Infernape, Gliscor, Suicune, Breloom, Machamp, Zapdos, and Dragonite. I don't consider many defensive threats to be threats CAP10 needs to counter. However I will go over why I did not mention the ones here.

I'm going to compare Status Immunity to Magic Guard as unbias as I can for each threat.

Scizor - Status immunity does nothing. Scizor doesn't carry any status. Magic Guard helps against CB sets who continually switch out with U-Turn by ignoring EH/SS damage.

Tyranitar - Status immunity again doesn't do anything as Tyranitar doesn't carry status. Magic Guard ignores Tyranitar's constant SS damage which helps to stop it from stalling CAP10 down. It also gives a slight advantage against Choice sets who will switch out repeatedly.

Metagross - Neither ability helps much. The only mentionables are Magic Guard can run Life Orb to potentially score a much easier 2HKO while being defensive enough to take a few hits if it can avoid switching into Earthquake. The rare Trick variant can also be countered with Flame Orb. These are very weak points but are still points.

Lucario - Neither ability helps much again. Slight mentionables are LO variants of Magic Guard can simply outrun and OHKO without having to resort to a Choice item.

Infernape - Neither helps much here either. U-Turning around will hinder CAP10 as well as constant switches and the EH immunity provided by Magic Guard is appreciated but nothing beyond that.

Gliscor - Gliscor's Taunt/Toxic set is handled excellently by both abilities. Magic Guard does this ever so slightly better since Gliscor is commonly run on SS teams and the immunity always helps.

Suicune - Neither ability helps beyond ignoring Toxic Spikes.

Breloom - Status immunity handles this better than Magic Guard in one aspect since it doesn't have to waste an item with Toxic/Flame Orb and doesn't have to switch in once before hand to handle Spore. Magic Guard deals with Leech Seed far easier on the other hand (not using Deck Knight's example of status immunity because I just plain find it silly to make a non-Magic Guard Magic Guard while Rising Dusk's is more stable).

Machamp - Status immunity handles Champ much better since it is immune to confusion. Though Magic Guard prevents confusion recoil, it will still waste a turn.

Zapdos - Toxic sits at 13.8% and Thunder Wave at 7.8%. Status immunity handles it better in terms of Thunder Wave though it's lack of use is rather ignorable. Toxic doesn't affect Magic Guard either and Thunder Wave is only a problem to Toxic Orb sets if it hasn't switched in prior to. Magic Guard also has no issue with Roar which is run 13.4% of the time. I'd give the advantage to Magic Guard.

Dragonite - Dragonite carries status on extremely rare cases, both Thunder Wave and Toxic are under Other at 5.2%. 252/252/4 Hp/Def/Sp.A Magic Guard with Life Orb can survive any attack Dragonite throws CAP10's way, even +1 LO Adamant Earthquake, and OHKO back with Ice Beam as long as SR is down (or a turn of LO recoil in the case of Offensive DDNite).

Status Immunity - 1 (Machamp) || Magic Guard - 8 || Undecided - 2 (Breloom, Suicune)

So in short there is no reason to run a custom Status Immunity ability instead of Magic Guard. It's only true advantage is Machamp and even then Magic Guard is hindered only a bit less.

Now at this point I want to make sure Trace isn't being completely outclassed by Magic Guard. I'll go back over the threats Trace can be used effectively against and compare them to Magic Guard.

Salamence - Salamence is very tricky, as both Trace and Magic Guard can survive its most powerful attack aimed at CAP10, +1 LO Earthquake, reliably. However Trace gives a better switch in to MixMence, since it can take Outrage and Earthquake slightly better thanks to Tracing Intimidate. Magic Guard, of course, ignores SR damage which is nice but most would use Trace to handle Salamence securely.

Heatran - Seeing as how Toxic is in the Other section of usage, Trace does a remarkably better job. Taking 0% from a potentially Flash Fire boosted Fire Blast greatly offsets the EH immunity Magic Guard provides.

Gyarados - Trace, hands down, takes Gyarados. The only thing mentionable for Magic Guard is the rare Roar Gyarados who will still get Intimidated twice by Trace.

Blissey - Very torn. Trace has the advantage of being able to take Thunder Wave switching in for the first time and then switch out and lose paralysis. Magic Guard can stall Blissey down even when it fires off Toxic. However, I feel Trace wins this battle. Blissey is key set up bait for most sweepers, and knowing which status it carries immediately without any repercussions will be very helpful. Since Blissey in most cases would end up stalling CAP10 down a ridiculous amount anyways, switching out and losing Toxic is just as useful. This argument can go both ways, but my personal opinion is Trace.

Magnezone - There is no question using Trace to copy Magnet Pull will be incredibly more useful than Magic Guard.

Vaporeon - Another very difficult choice. This is about as undecided as Blissey: Surf is turned into HP with Trace while Toxic is rendered useles from Magic Guard. I once again have to go into personal territory and say Trace is more useful. Though both abilities do not fear Vaporeon, a STAB resisted Surf is more powerful than unSTAB'd HP-Electric. Surf is on 88.8% of sets while Toxic is on 22.8%. This is debatable but I believe Trace comes out on top.

Flygon - Flygon seems tough until you realize Trace immunizes it's main way to deal damage to CAP10. Magic Guard is nice against constant U-Turning thanks to EH immunity, but if a set is made to counter Flygon it shouldn't have any problem switching into Choice Band Earthquake.

Jolteon - Trace is 100% the victor since it turns any of Jolteon's main offensive options against it and Thunder Wave (10% of all sets) also grants Trace extra staying power.

Kingdra - Toxic isn't mentionable on any Kingdra and the advantage of being able to Trace Kingdra's Swift Swim (or even Sniper) will be vital to bringing down this threat.

Trace - 9 || Magic Guard - 0 || Debatable - 2 (Vaporeon, Blissey)

I do not see any other ability which covers all of Trace's weak spots while not contesting the threats handled more effectively than Magic Guard. Those who consider Magic Guard + LO to be offensive, one look at Infernape, Zapdos, Salamence, Starmie, or Latias will show you it is extremely outclassed as an LO sweeper. The immunity to passive damage is great, but the terrible offenses don't help it sweep, it helps it tank. And even the CAP10 has to pool all its resources into offenses in order to be a threat and thus has an immensely difficult time taking hits from any set up sweeper, any tank that can hit SE and take a hit (there are many), and any wall. Who would use CAP10 as a sweeper when you have infinitely better options at hand? Clefable is only considered a sweeper because of Belly Drum and an incredibly powerful recoil STAB attack. I need not remind you CAP10 has neither of these and thus cannot be considered a sweeper in comparison. Oh yeah, and NO ONE RUNS LIFE ORB ON CLEFABLE ANYWAYS. Smart players in UU know Clefable's defensive options outclass its offensive.

However I do see there is potential to counter much more with this ability. Poison Heal is a very viable substitute and those who do not support Magic Guard due to its immunity to passive damage should turn to Poison Heal next.

 

[Typhlosion]

There are three major possibilities i'm supporting right now:

Marvel Scale- I do believe that CAP10 shouldn't be too afraid of status, but giving it something like Magic Guard or and ability that gives it total status immunity makes it a bit OP. If we give it Marvel Scale, than it's still not too worried about status, and gets a minor boost with it as well.

Motor Drive- The way i see it, CAP10 will be switching quite a bit. By giving it Motor Drive, it could come in on it's mark when it is using an electric attack, use the speed boost to take it out, then switch to something better suited for the next situation.

No Secondary Ability- Trace is a perfectly fine ability, and i see no reason to give another option unless it is seen necessary.

 

[Raikaria]

Magic Guard does nothing to combat the threats that Trace fails to cover. [1.] The only advantage Magic Guard has for switching into these threats is that it prevents the loss of life due to entry hazards. [1.] Even despite that, it fails to net any real advantage when switching into Infernape, Lucario, Tyranitar, Machamp, and so forth. [2.] It also doesn't help CAP10 if it is forced to switch into (at some late stage of the game) things like Breloom, Scizor, Mamoswine, Swampert, or what have you. [3.]With CAP10 not having Intimidate, these threats will always be immensely dangerous to CAP10. [4.]

Magic Guard is also dangerous because it can be used so effectively offensively. Thinking ahead without blatantly poll-jumping, many people have been wanting to put Volt Tackle on CAP10. This is completely out of the question if CAP10 gets Magic Guard, because then the recoil damage is nullified, forcing its strongest physical Electric attack to be Thunderpunch. Furthermore, Life Orb becomes immensely useful on CAP10 with Magic Guard because its recoil is nullified. I would always run LO on all CAP10 sets just on principle, even over Leftovers, if Magic Guard is present. This isn't even considering the immense defensive potential Magic Guard carries with immunity to weather effects and all residual damage in general. I don't really support it for these reasons. [5.]

I also recognize that many people do not support the use of custom abilities on CAP10, but Deck and I were discussing the other night (God forbid we agree on something..), and we both think that a custom ability might be valuable on CAP10 if it's of a specific nature. CAP10 doesn't like things like Toxic, Burn, Paralysis, or Sleep. These things are things that will incapacitate CAP10 once they are applied. Furthermore, being immune to one just isn't enough, especially with the diverse roles that CAP10 is being forced to assume. Natural Cure isn't enough to remedy this either, as CAP10 needs to be able to stay in without status in the first place, not simply lose it by fleeing from battle. Finally, Shield Dust simply isn't good enough to stop all status, as all it stops are the 'hax' status effects and not things like Will-O-Wisp, Spore, Toxic, or Thunder Wave.

With this all in mind, I am proposing a custom ability that acts as Status Immunity. CAP10 would be immune to poison, sleep, confusion, paralysis, burn, and freeze. This would allow it a reasonable level of tolerance for threats that serve to beat their counters by inflicting status (Rotom-A, Machamp, Gliscor, Zapdos, Togekiss, Toxic Heatran) and also permits it to be more useful at a later stage in a battle when it is forced to switch into things that rely on status as their primary mode of crippling opponents (Blissey, Breloom, Celebi, Jirachi, Snorlax' Body Slam). It also gives it a much-needed immunity to Toxic Spikes, which would otherwise completely demolish CAP10's ability to soft counter its targets. It also helps a lot to be immune to a stray freeze from Ice Beam, paralysis from Thunderbolt, or burn from Flamethrower/Fire Blast.

I am curious what the rest of you think of this suggestion, so don't hesitate to speak up!

[1.] Explain how Trace counters status users. How does Trace counter anything packing Toxic? How about Burns? [On a special Set] Magic Guard has way more uses than just 'avoiding hazards', even you admit later in your own argument.

Let's bear in mind, if CAP10 dosen't have Magic Guard, it's not exactly trapper material. What it's designed to counter [Because, if you send CAP10 out against something, that will be the idea], will switch out, happily. CAP10 will then face something it is not designed to counter, and have to switch out, only to be ravaged by hazards again, and worn down through attrittion. This is NOT what we want.

[2.]
Invest in Defence, and almost all non-Earthquake physical attacks become 3HKO's. The only ability currently which 'counters' Machamp is Own Tempo. Besides, Magic Guard does net an advantage, allowing you to hit the frail Infernape and Lucario, and the Water-Weak Tyranitar harder, due to Life Orb. Why would a Water/Electric CAP need help with Infernape anyway?

[3.]
Key words in this argument are 'forced to switch into'. This means CAP10 was not designed to switch into these pokemon, and is supposed to struggle. What switches into Breloom safely anyway? Not much. However, give CAP10 a Toxic Orb, and, hey, it counters Breloom's Spore, and can deal decent damage back with Ice Beam, without being OHKO'ed by Seed Bomb if it invests in Defence! Scizor is a threat, when it's slower, and Bullet Punch is x4 Resisted? Mamoswine? Long as you don't come in on EQ, you win. Swampert is the only legitamate threat on that whole list, and Hidden Power Grass ravages it. [Or Energy Ball, if we get it]

[4.] Let's remember this thing has offensive power hardly better than Clefable. Do you see Clefable running around in UU with Life Orb sets? Not often. So what will something with only slightly better offensive stats [Albeit, better STABS], do? Also, even with the LO boost, CAP10's offensive powers are still not sweeper levels, most offensive OU's actually beat them without any boost.

[5.]
Point 5 links with Point 4, and is against the whole second paragraph. STAB Volt Tackle is not much more powerful than STAB Return, especially with similar stats. So, Volt Tackle will not be broken, you don't see Clefable smashing everything with Return. CAP10's Volt Tacklle with Life Orb is weaker than Cyclohm's Thunderbolt, if not unboosted, with a Life Orb itself. Your paragraph here contradicts your previous paragraph, stateing outside of hazards, Magic Guard has no use. Contradicting your own argument only makes it weaker.

With that all said and done, my backing is painfully obvious. Magic Guard pairs well with Trace. Both are abilities that can take on key pokemon. Together with CAP10's flexiable defences, and [hopefully] a good movepool, CAP10 will be tailorable to take on most threats in OU.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Anyways, my case for a custom ability is shot by BEEJ' post, so right now I really don't support anything in particular. Poison Heal is a nice next best thing, but I really don't like the double Leftovers recovery on such a defensive Pokemon, so I'm still not completely behind it. Marvel Scale doesn't interest me because it doesn't prevent any of the status effects, it just makes CAP10 benefit a bit from them while still suffering the paralysis slowing or the burn attack reduction. Magic Guard still doesn't interest me at all anyways.

Explain how Trace counters status users. How does Trace counter anything packing Toxic? How about Burns? [On a special Set] Magic Guard has way more uses than just 'avoiding hazards', even you admit later in your own argument.

Trace doesn't "counter" status users, but neither should CAP10 anyways. The secondary ability should simply lighten the threat of status should CAP10 be forced in against a user of it for whatever reason. Magic Guard still fails to prevent the speed reduction of Paralysis and the attack reduction of Burn. Magic Guard furthermore is currently bugged on Shoddy Battle 1 and also allows the user to be fully Paralyzed, even though it shouldn't.

Also, you're right, Magic Guard is way more useful than that, it's way too useful.

Invest in Defence, and almost all non-Earthquake physical attacks become 3HKO's. The only ability currently which 'counters' Machamp is Own Tempo. Besides, Magic Guard does net an advantage, allowing you to hit the frail Infernape and Lucario, and the Water-Weak Tyranitar harder, due to Life Orb. Why would a Water/Electric CAP need help with Infernape anyway?

You think Life Orb having no recoil on CAP10 is a good thing? Please, consider the power of something with Life Orb, no recoil, no entry hazard damage, no passive weather damage, effective immunity to poison, and considerable natural bulk. It's Starmie from hell. I've already posted the calculations, now back it up with all of the aforementioned immunities. It's just too much.

 

[Banryu]

I changed my mind, CAP-10 doesn't really need a new custom ability in addition to Trace, especially since the one I thought of is pretty much better than it anyway. :\ Wouldn't make sense to pair them.

I'll just support Magic Guard or no ability.

Magic Guard would allow it to have more of a defensive role, allowing it to be used on SS and Hail teams or to counter Toxic-users and, to a certain extent, stall teams... I actually feel like it hasn't gotten enough representation in here, but I don't have the time to argue it at the moment... maybe later...

If all else fails, no ability is perfectly acceptable. Given the way CAP-10 is built, Trace alone is probably enough of a boost for it...

 

[Seizen]

Again, why is status now considered so important? If you wanted status to be rid of, why not suggest it as a primary ability?

Of the suggestions made presently, I personally support Volt Absorb, Marvel Scale and No Ability. Marvel Scale as I cannot be bothered to argue the toss about status being unneccesarily focused on, despite the fact that many CAP have ignored it as a worry. Volt Absorb to add additional reason to switch into Electric moves, specifically Thunderbolt from Rotom-A or Starmie. And No Ability as Trace is good in and of its own right, and it doesn't need to be backed up, despite a wish to potentially do so.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I'd sooner give CAP10 Rough Skin or Frisk or something over giving it No Secondary Ability. Trace does literally nothing to help against a large number of threats that people might be using CAP10 to check, and we definitely need a secondary ability to cover those, or at least do SOMETHING to them.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

And by simply choosing an ability that allows us to explore potential within the existing game mechanics, we deviate from the concept. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the idea of making CAP10 a utility counter to see if a utility counter is actually viable in the OU metagame? In which case, shouldn't we be ensuring that CAP10's abilities are relevant to the concept rather than just being generic all-round useful like Intimidate and Levitate and Magic Guard? The problem is, I haven't seen a single post in this thread that suggests a non-custom ability and then explains how it helps CAP10 fit the concept, so I am not convinced that any of the suggested secondary abilities is the right one to pick. Therefore, here's my novel idea: no secondary ability.

Basically what I was thinking. They're no pre-existing ability that would be in par with Trace. Either they're too good for this concept and would be used way more than the primary ability (Magic Guard and maybe Poison Heal), they're sub-par as best and would have been better off with just Trace (Marvel Scale, Volt Absorb), or just plain old redundant (Intimidate). If custom abilities were allowed then I would have accepted Rising_Dusk/Deck Knight's idea rather quickly, but since they're not due to wanted creativity to flourish (Seriously, isn't creating a Pokemon creative enough?) No ability is the best option.

 

[darkmattr]

I support the idea of shed skin, it doesn't make it immune to everything, but lets it recover from status ailments occasionally. Magic guard as many have said is way too potent for something with the massive bulk and good speed CAP10 has.

 

[Fuzznip]

I think Poison Heal is a bit too much for this CAP. I mean, CAP10 is considerably defensive, and that extra 12% HP recovery (you can even run Leftovers and predict Toxic to heal 18%) is huge. I realize that Toxic can be a major putdown, but that's just something we have to deal with. We can always use clerics or status absorbers on our team, and who knows, maybe CAP10 will have Aromatherapy/Heal Bell in its movepool to rid itself of painful status. No Poison Heal for me, it's too good of an ability in my opinion. I would rather use Immunity if we wanted an ability that kills poison. Also, Trace kind of acts as a status healer through using Trace against Natural Curers like Blissey and Celebi, as well as being able to switch into Will-O-Wisp Heatran and scoring Poison Heal against Breloom, should you be poisoned beforehand.

Magic Guard is a no go for me. It's way, way too good on this Pokemon. Being immune to all forms of status and entry hazards makes it so much more effective. Also, it can use a Life Orb without any drawbacks, making it hit a lot harder and potentially turning it into a sweeper with that Speed. Leech Seed doesn't affect it either, another big bonus. I think Magic Guard is going overkill. Please don't give that to CAP10.

To be completely honest, I don't think we really need another ability, but that's just me. We should probably focus on countering threats that Trace does not help us against, such as Lucario and Metagross, instead of worrying about some other things like status which can be dealt with through team support, moveset, etc.
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[eltica]

I would like to propose a custom ability, Priority Bypass. The name explains the function. It could help CAP 10 deal with Scizor and other priority STABs. So, how would this work help is my question? (I would like to know because I didn't think it over to much.)

 

[hydrolphin]

First, I just want to say, Intimidate is a REALLY, REALLY stupid idea. Two of the pokemon Trace is super awesome against are Salamence and Gyarados-two pokemon that don't like Intimidate either. Intimidate does cover new stuff, but it also covers stuff that we already have... Its kind of like Inner Focus and Steadfast on the same pokemon-they both deal with the same problem.

Actually, I don't see any ability that jumps out at me. I think that No secondary ability is probably the best option here. I don't get why people are worried about CAP10 not being able to check everything with its abilities alone. It already has good typing and stats, and we still can work with the movepool. We could either give it something like Super Luck or Immunity which are just passive abilities that will be filler (like Vital Spirit on Fidgit sorta thing) or we could give it something like Magic Guard that always gets used because its just an awesome ability. Trace is good enough imo.