CAP 10 CAP 10 - Stat Spread Submissions

[Dominion]

So ... Dominion, are you suggesting that the only way to soft counter a pokemon is to outspeed it and OHKO it with a Life Orb/Choice Band/Choice Specs super effective/STAB attack?

No, but you're rarely going to be able to soft counter the base 100's. The only 3 big threats to this CAP in that bracket are Salamence, Gyarados and Celebi.

No pokemon on Earth can wall Salamence. It's impossible. If you switch this CAP into salamence and you aren't faster, your dead.
Turn 1: you switch in while Salamence does either DD, Outrage or Draco Meteor, or Earthquake. then it does it agian because you are slower, effectly killing you.

Since we are limited to rank 6 in defenses, we are not allowed to make this cap able to soft counter mence and partially celebi and gyarados. And other extremely heavy hitters.

If we have lower than 100 speed against mence, heres the scenario:

turn 1--
You switch to CAP 10
Enemy salamence uses DD/EQ/Draco Meteor/Outrage
Salamence hits you for over 50% of your life.
turn 2--
Salamence uses Earthquake or Outrage
Your dead.

You are going to take over 50% on the first hit, if he instead uses Dragon Drance on the first turn then Earthquake will soon follow and kill you. There is -no- arguement here. There is no stat spread thats going to take less than 50% damage from a LO Outrage, DraMet, EQ. Beej said we are limited to Rank 6 defenses. It's not going to happen. So, if this CAP is going to do what we want "Have the ability to counter a broad portion of the meta-game" then it has to have high speed. If it doesn't then it's never going to be able to switch into Mence, Celebi, Gyarados (to a lesser extent), Jirachi without being hit twice or hit by a +1 or possibly a +2 STAB dragon move, or Ground move, or something neutral.

These base 100 pokemon are a huge portion of the metagame, a portion of the metagame that has very powerful and even super effective moves that will be abused against this CAP. and if this CAP doesn't even have a chance to beating them, then this CAP is a failure because now it only has the ability to check the meta-game that has lower than 100 speed.

I've said countless times that 103 is fine. 111 is where it becomes too much. 111 means it always outspeed base 100's. Then this CAP would be too powerful and would be able to check them 100% of the time. 103 forces the CAP to place EVs into speed if it wants to even stand a cahnce against the Base 100's.

The next speed bench mark after 100/101 is 108/109. Thats infernape and I don't care too much about infernape at this moment. Only the 100's.

If we were allowed to have rank 9-10 Defenses, then sure, reduce the speed to 60-70ish. The CAP would be able to switch into these attacks with little problem. But the CAP can't have rank 9-10 Defenses. We also do not know if we're going to give this CAP a recovery move and what ability it'll be. So, why base your stats around recovery moves? or perhaps why say "oh well, it'll have ways around the speed" when you do not know if it'll even be able to boost it's speed?

This CAP will be able to utilize a Choice item and LO. With rank 5 offenses, either the Scarf or the Band/Specs is going to be used more often when this CAP is used in a more offensive manner. With low speed, You've not only stopped it's ability to take out Base 100's. But it's offensive prowess is limited to a Scarf. Meaning, the only Offensive variant will be Scarf. This is due to having massive Attack and Special attack (say 100/120) and moderate speed (70?). With high speed, it can use all 3 choice items. and with 103 speed, it gives this pokemon a huge incentive to use a Scarf. with a Scarf, it'll be able to outspeed and possibly OHKO DDmence, Agiligross, DDdos, Scarfgon, Scarfachi etc. Once agian, a huge portion of the metagame

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Deck Knight, minor nitpick but with 252 Def/40 SA/216 Spe and Timid a +1 LO Naive Mence Earthquake would actually do 93.9% - 110.6% to CAP10. Overall, you stat spread is once again, a true work of art. I'm thinking of pulling out of the stat spread race and just support your instead. I mean, they're nothing I can do in terms of stat spreads that would be unique enough to worth posting.

 

[Str0ngbad]

With high speed, it can use all 3 choice items. and with 103 speed, it gives this pokemon a huge incentive to use a Scarf. with a Scarf, it'll be able to outspeed and possibly OHKO DDmence, Agiligross, DDdos, Scarfgon, Scarfachi etc. Once agian, a huge portion of the metagame

I understand how much we need the speed to challenge Salamence but the above is a bigger failure to in my eyes. As much as he is the embodiment of 'the top threats in the metagame' if we have to change our CAP to the point of being able to counter half of the metagame at once with a scarf, bulk, and great movepool then our concept has failed.

Also there are items like shuca berry that would make countering Salamence without the speed a little more possible than you say. However I agree it is far from an ideal approach. If we end up with one or two problem pokemon/sets we might be able to address it with an ability as we still have that left. I would hate to give up on the original concept at this stage and make CAP10 capable of beating everything just to compete with Salamence. As for Celebi, I think we wrote off countering it when we chose the typing. It is a wonderful typing but any of them have pros and cons. This CAP will not want to take a specs Leaf Storm whether it is fast or not.

EDIT: and there is always priority as an option down the road even though I don't want to resort to them any more than we have to.

 

[Rhys29]

Why is everyone who support's +Speed's only true argument (apart from Deck Knight who actually saw the second threat) Salamence? You don't fucking need a >100 Speed to deal with Salamence and I am absolutely sick of some people saying it is a necessity. Scizor, Cresselia, Hippowdon, Bronzong, and even Blissey (it can switch into Fire Blast or Draco Meteor and have a great chance at surviving the following Outrage though Stealth Rock can stop this) have NEVER needed speed to deal with Salamence.

MixMence is an issue and will not be countered with stats alone. This I completely agree with. We are putting way too much strain on our base stats to do everything the CAP is supposed to do. The ability should be playing just as large a role in countering threats as the stats. This shouldn't change just because of the order we do things in.

I see the merits of having +100 speed but our previous examples of utility counters did not need it. Simply stop stating it as the only way to deal with base 100's, however it can make it somewhat easier to.

 

[Jibaku]

Hmm
I'd like to suggest

156 HP / 87 Atk / 71 Def / 86 SpA / 72 SpD / 98 Spe
BST: 570

PS: 149 Good
PD: 174 Very Good
SS: 149 Good
PD: 174 Very Good
ODB: -4.4 Slightly biased towards Defense
PSB: 0.12 Slightly biased towards Physical
Overall Rating: 361 Excellent

[COMMENTS]
Well as you can see this thing has a mammoth HP, somewhat poor defenses, and middling attack power with decent Speed to outrun up to the base 95.

[High HP & Low Defenses vs Low HP and High Defenses]
The reason I wanted to go for the former is because if you do the latter, the focus of EVing will be in the HP stat, thus inevitably balancing out the defenses, which isn’t exactly what this CAP is aiming for. Having this build allows the Pokemon to choose which defensive stat it wishes to boost, but at the same time restricts it to one option and stops it from being a general wall of sorts.

I also didn't want the HP to be too high while the defenses are too low because then we might end up with a "general wall" issue, because you aren't going to focus on one side when putting HP EVs don't give much of a boost!

As part of maximizing this Pokemon’s effectiveness, I try to set the maximum defenses to a “jump point”. Take its physical defense for instance. 70 Base Defense maxes out at 262, while 71 base Defense maxes out at 265, a 3 point difference as opposed to the difference in maxed 77 vs 78 defenses or whatever.

[Maximizing its Physical Defense]
If you choose to counter Pokemon by this route, keep in mind of these calcs. All calcs are done with this Pokemon having 252 HP / 252 Defense, Bold or Impish natured (depending on which attacks you plan to use to counter), and no ability, because we haven’t decided on that yet.

Adamant +1 Life Orb Salamence’s Earthquake: 83% - 97.7%
Naïve +1 Life Orb Salamence’s Earthquake: 75.6%-89.1%
Adamant +2 Life Orb Lucario’s Close Combat: 85.6%-100%
Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar’s Crunch: 38%- 45%
Naïve Life Orb Physically based Infernape’s Close Combat: 37.8%-44.4%
Adamant +1 Life Orb Gyarados’ Earthquake 77.9%-91.9%
Adamant CB Scizor’s U-turn: 32.8%-38.6%
Adamant Machamp’s Dynamicpunch: 31%-36.6% (Confusion damage will still annoy it though, unless you give it Shield Dust or Own Tempo or something)

As you can see, this Pokemon is capable of surviving all of those attacks after Stealth Rock damage + Leftovers recovery, though Adamant Mence may KO (who uses that anyways!?), and Lucario, whom you’ll have to deal with by using the Speed stat which I will describe later.

But of course, being a utility counter has drawbacks, and its Special Defense stat is left unprotected by doing this. Let’s see some powerful Special Attack calculation shall we? In these calcs, I will assume 4 Special Defense EVs.

Timid Choice Specs Latias’ Draco Meteor: 76.9% - 90.7%
Timid Life Orb Jolteon’s Thunderbolt: 45%-53%
Timid Choice Specs Jolteon’s Thunderbolt: 52.3%-61.6%
Naive Life Orb Salamence’s Draco Meteor: 66.8%-78.6%
Timid Life Orb Heatran’s Earth Power: 64.3%-76.4%
Timid Scarftran’s Earth Power: 49.6%-58.5%

Not too pretty here. Latias can pick you off at mid-healthy percentages, Life Orb Jolteon has a chance to 2HKO with Sandstorm, and SpecsJolt 2HKOes guaranteed. It can’t switch into Salamence’s Draco Meteor either. Even choice scarf Heatran has a pretty good chance to 2HKO.

[Using Speed as a method of Defense]
The Speed stat is quite often the best overall defense, which is something we’re trying to stay away on. However, I choose this Speed stat so that it may be utilized as a form of defense, but not high enough where it becomes the primary focus of its countering prowess. By using Max Speed, we are able to outrun the following Pokemon that we can not by using no Speed.

Jolly Breloom
Jolly Lucario
Timid Suicune
Jolly Gliscor
Jolly Metagross (without a boost) (why don’t people use Jolly Agiligross?)
Jolly Gyarados (without a boost)
Heatran
Neutral Speed base 100s
Jolly Mamoswine
Kingdra
Electivire

Out of these, the significant ones are Breloom, Lucario, Gliscor, and Mamoswine, all which can hit the Pokemon with STAB Super effective moves (barring Lucario who has an absurdly powerful Close Combat). These Pokemon can not be handled easily with the Physically Defensive focus because they’re powerful enough to penetrate through its high bulk. Outrunning neutral base 100s is a decent bonus as well. Heatran is somewhat significant because the Specially Defensive variant may have troubles taking it down when sandstorm is out.

Hide

(Oh and what do you know? Colossoil sits at base 95 Speed as well!)

[Maximizing Special Defense]
Quite the opposite of the Physically Defensive variant, this attempts to take on the extremely powerful Special Attacks in the metagame, but leaves itself open to physical Attacks. The following calcs assumes 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD Calm/Careful

Timid Choice Specs Latias’ Draco Meteor: 52.3%-61.6%
Naïve Life Orb Salamence’s Draco Meteor: 45.3%-53.3%
Timid Life Orb Jolteon’s Thunderbolt: 31% - 36.6%
Timid Choice Specs Jolteon’s Thunderbolt 35.4%-41.8%
Timid Life Orb Heatran’s Earth Power: 43.8%-51.5%
Timid Scarftran’s Earth Power: 33.7%-40%

This Pokemon can now comfortably take on Special hits that once plagued it. Latias fails to 2HKO even with Stealth Rock damage (and even with Sandstorm the chance is miniscule), The classic Mixed Salamence gets countered perfectly, Jolteon doesn’t hurt it well at all, and Scarftran is almost completely walled. Life Orb Heatran does have a shot of passing through, but only in Sand, barring hax.



[The offensive stats]
Here I kept these stats at average so that we may not be tempted to turn it into a Mixed Sweeper, and also detracts from sweeping in general. Attack and Special Attack are about equal in order to provide with the most versatility. Even though the better moves are generally on the Special side, we have to remember that several Pokemon have significantly higher Special Defense than Defense, particularly Latias and Tyranitar (thanks to sand…). Since we might end up giving this Pokemon a huge offensive movepool to handle many different threats, abusing this is not something we want in CAP10.

[Alternate option]
156 HP / 84 Atk / 71 Def / 83 SpA / 72 SpD / 105 Speed
...If you must absolutely outrun the base 100s, but I'm somewhat scared that Speed may become the primary focus since outrunning Salamence is very, very significant. Not to mention it would look almost like a copy of Deck Knight's Spread... But meh I don't know.

 

[jc104]

@ Rhys29

Yeah, come to think of it, all it really needs to counter Mence is Ice Shard and the ability to take 1 attack.

I should add that all of those pokemon you mentioned have superior typing for dealing with mence and/or a much greater defensive rating than we are allowed. (and as Dominion said, still have a chance of losing to Mence)

 

[Dominion]

Well Rhys, I honestly haven't seen any other arguements that have held valid. I'd gladly hear them in a private message but so far, there are no arguements.

If we're going to give this pokemon a specific ability to counter things such as Mence, Celebi, Infernape, etc. Then I'd like to see that one ability that would give this CAP a chance. But since we are not there yet, and we do not know what ability this CAP will have, why pretend like we know for certain this CAP's ability will help it do so.

also, those pokemon dislike Salamence as much as any.

Salamence is simply an example. There are other pokemon in the base 100's that this CAP is thoroughly going to hate due to it's typing and it's limited Rank 6 Defenses.

The Shuca arguement isn't that great. Yes, you absorb a single EQ (Or Earth power), then what? the Salamence/Celebi user is most likely going to switch out, not risking a nasty Icebeam, and will simply switch in again once this CAP is out of the way, not defeated, but not in play. Also, If Shuca berry becomes the only way to counter EQ users, then every time you switch this CAP into an obvious EQ abuser, they know you have Shuca. It's kinda like Yache Garchomp. Everybody knows that Garchomp usually carries Yache, and they tried to play around it.


This is my last post in this topic for awhile, if not today. I'll discuss this further in private messages if you honestly want to continue this arguement.

Also Rhys, calm down :P

 

[petrie911]

Why is everyone who support's +Speed's only true argument (apart from Deck Knight who actually saw the second threat) Salamence? You don't fucking need a >100 Speed to deal with Salamence and I am absolutely sick of some people saying it is a necessity. Scizor, Cresselia, Hippowdon, Bronzong, and even Blissey (it can switch into Fire Blast or Draco Meteor and have a great chance at surviving the following Outrage though Stealth Rock can stop this) have NEVER needed speed to deal with Salamence.

Cresselia can sit there and wall just about anything, which is definitely *NOT* what we want CaP10 doing. Hippowdon can't really take a DM, Blissey can't really take an Outrage and be left with appreciable health (and taking out Blissey is a big deal), and Bronzong is just going to love switching into Fire Blast. Also, Blissey and Hippowdon have massive tankiness, which is not an option for us, and Bronzong has resistances across the board, which is also not an option for us. Scizor only doesn't need speed because he has a ridiculous priority attack, but it's not a particularly good counter because if Mence catches it with Fire Blast, it's toast. I agree that speed is not the only way, but it is a very good one.

Also, who said Mence is the only argument for high speed? I'd actually say (and, in fact, I do in my post) that Latias is the bigger argument for high speed. It takes so much Sdef to not be 2HKO'd by Specs Latias' Draco Meteor, but being faster than it means you only need to dodge the OHKO and Recover. Of course, not a huge number of spreads here have enough speed to consistently outspeed Latias, so perhaps people aren't considering it.

Infernape is also a big deal. Not outspeeding Ape means you'll either be taking a +2 attack from it or possibly 2 CCs. This takes quite a bit of defense, and will be seriously problematic if CaP10 ends up being heavy.

 

[Rhys29]

Also Rhys, calm down :P

Perhaps I did not use the best examples. However using a higher base Speed only forces Salamence out every time. Lower base speeds tempt Salamence to stay in and finish it off. Neither of them deal with Salamence effectively.​

Notice other base 100's are bulky and have a form of recovery. There is basically no way using offensive means only CAP10 will be able to take them out, especially since one has to sacrifice offensive power for speed. Moves like Perish Song and Roar will deal with lower speed opponents who are insanely bulky, so neither side can argue offense there, but now we're giving the CAP issues with tanks. It's almost always going to be running Choice Scarf as well. Why just outrun base 100's when you can outrun basically everything and still take just as much damage from hits? All you're giving up is 6.25% every turn and the amount you save by not taking the second hit will balance it out. You are also giving it the ability to revenge kill which should not be an option for many sets.

EDIT: So you mean an Electric resistance for Zapdos and a Grass resist for Celebi would have been useful for this CAP to function? No way, who could have seen that coming.​

 

[Objection]

Here's a novel idea: Let Salamence stand a chance against an Ice Beam-wielding CAP10 switching in. Not a 100% chance but a chance nonetheless. Make the player have to actually make their CAP10 a specific Mence counter and sacrifice the ability to counter, say, Rotom-A, just like in the damn concept! Likewise, let a CAP10 designed to counter Lucario fail to counter Salamence, just like in the damn concept!

Suppose that CAP10 gets base 105 speed. Considering the defences also being given to CAP10, this means that it will always beat Gyarados and Salamence if it wields a scarf, and even if it doesn't, CAP10 still always beats Lucario, Tyranitar, Rotom-A, Scizor, non-scarf Heatran, Jirachi, Celebi, non-scarf Flygon, Skarmory, Hippowdon and Gliscor with a moveset of Surf, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam and Hidden Power Ghost or Shadow Ball. Utility counter = countering at most five or six different major threats with four moves. Utility counter =/= countering more than ten different major threats with four moves.

EDIT: CAP10 will have a diverse movepool because that is what makes the concept. Therefore, since CAP10 could be running anything, slower targets have no reason to stay in. If CAP10 has higher base speed than Lucario, then Lucario will never stay in. If CAP10 has higher base speed than Salamence, then Salamence will never stay in. If CAP10 has higher base speed than Latias, then Latias will never stay in. In this way, CAP10 soft counters everything it outspeeds. The concept says that CAP10 should counter few pokemon at once, not many pokemon at once. Therefore, high speed goes against the concept.

Besides, if CAP10 has a lower base speed than the threat you want it to counter, slap a Choice Scarf on it, and if that doesn't work, run an ability that will help against the target - assuming that CAP10 gets an ability that helps against the target, which is why we should have been deciding the ability before the stats.

 

[familyguyman]

Here's a novel idea: Let Salamence stand a chance against an Ice Beam-wielding CAP10 switching in. Not a 100% chance but a chance nonetheless. Make the player have to actually make their CAP10 a specific Mence counter and sacrifice the ability to counter, say, Rotom-A, just like in the damn concept! Likewise, let a CAP10 designed to counter Lucario fail to counter Salamence, just like in the damn concept!

Suppose that CAP10 gets base 105 speed. Considering the defences also being given to CAP10, this means that it will always beat Gyarados and Salamence if it wields a scarf, and even if it doesn't, CAP10 still always beats Lucario, Tyranitar, Rotom-A, Scizor, non-scarf Heatran, Jirachi, Celebi, non-scarf Flygon, Skarmory, Hippowdon and Gliscor with a moveset of Surf, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam and Hidden Power Ghost or Shadow Ball. Utility counter = countering at most five or six different major threats with four moves. Utility counter =/= countering more than ten different major threats with four moves.

It's only natural that having 3 or 4 good moves will cover many, many Pokemon, that's just how it is. That being said, if you need a Mence counter, you carry Ice Beam but if CAP10 is a specialized Mence counter, then it should be able to OHKO with Ice Beam. It doesn't mean ALL sets will carry Ice Beam, just the Mence counter sets. If we want CAP10 to feasibly counter MANY threats, it will need MANY moves and throwing together 4 at once will consequently allow you to counter many many Pokemon at once at the expensive of support moves or niche countering moves, which might not be ideal.

Yes, CAP10 could, given the right moves, ALWAYS beat Gyarados, Salamence, T-Tar, etc but it will need the right moves and it only has 4 slots and decent, at best, offensive limits. It's very easy to be able to slap on BoltBeam and OHKO 4 things (Salamence, Gyaradoes, Flygon, Gliscor, etc) because they have 4x weaknesses, that can hardly be helped IMO.

 

[Zystral]

Well first, the most improtant point is switching into a DDmence. Obviously you would switch in as it DDances, but what would you do after that? You would never outspeed a +1 Mence unless you run something such as 175 speed. Otherwise your only other option is to survive the +1 EQ that comes your way and hope to KO it with some attack. And it takes roughly 80 EVs to OHKO a Naive Mence with a Base 80 Ice Beam.

The problem with running an absurdly high base speed (like I have) is that you do end up simply forcing a switch, so you end up only hitting or statusing the switch-in. However, due to the nature of what soft countering actually is, simply by forcing Mence out, we've successfully countered it.

Anything that has a hope of killing you without priority is usually outsped and dealt with in one way or another, usually through status or something. Otherwise anything faster usually lacks sufficient power, and CAP10 has resistances to two common priority attacks. Brilliant.

Whatsmore, by running just enough bulk in terms of HP and defense, you can comfortably adjust your EVs just enough to suvrvive what is necessary while being weak just enough to fear what you haven't prepared against.

But honestly, we are making mountains of spilt milk.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

It take into consideration my thoughts about Speed, but I think the Atk/SpA and Def/SpD should be switched, for more survivability. CAP 10 might rely on Super Effective hits in Ice Beam/Surf/Thunderbolt for kills.

Um, yeah if only I actually could...

I've just put up my own stat spread with the reversed attack/defenses and I got this:

PP: Above Average
PT: Fantastic
SP: Above Average
ST: Amazing

WAY outside the boundaries that Beej asked that we all stay inside. Which reminds me, I gotta do some calcs

 

[Fuzznip]

Here's my spread. I hope you all like it.

130 HP / 81 Atk / 82 Def / 80 SpA / 84 SpD / 120 Spe

Physical Sweepiness: 149 Rank 5: Good
Physical Tankiness: 173 Rank 6: Very Good
Special Sweepiness: 149 Rank 5: Good
Special Tankiness: 174 Rank 6: Very Good
Offensive/Defense Balance: -4.35 Slightly biased towards Defense
Physical/Special Balance: -0.09 Slightly biased towards Special
Overall Rating: 361 Rank 7: Excellent
Base Stat Total: 577

Overview

When coming up with a stat spread for this CAP, I was aiming for a spread that gives us as much versatility as possible. We want this CAP to have a lot of freedom with its EV choices so it can be constructed to whatever is best to the Pokemon you want to counter. This freedom is done by using a base HP stat of 130 and base Speed stat of 120, along with relatively equal offensive and defensive stats. I wanted to make sure that this CAP won’t be used offensively because of the pretty high Speed, so the average offenses help remove that potential idea of being uses offensively. I’m sure you all won’t like to see this CAP using some Life Orb set because it has great Special Attack and Speed; this is not what the concept is meant to do. I want this Pokemon to take hits, hit back with decent power that won’t leave it helpless, and outspeed certain Pokemon that you want without much EV investment.

HP / Def / SpD

130 HP / 82 Def / 84 SpD is my defensive spread of choice. The high HP gives us a lot of room for where we want our EVs to go. We can use minimal HP investment and insert the rest of our EVs in either or all (Special) Defense, (Special) Attack, and Speed. This is probably the most important aspect of this CAP; versatility. I tried to maximize this Pokemon’s defensive abilities but keep them relatively close to each other to avoid any bias when selecting the Pokemon you want to counter. I mean, I don’t want considerably higher Defense than Special Defense because you won’t be able to effectively counter special threats, such as Azelf, Starmie, etc. So, the close, slightly above average defenses paired up with the great HP stat makes it a good defensive Pokemon.

Atk / SpA / Spe

I didn’t want this Pokemon to be used as a potential sweeper, so the offensive stats I gave it kind of steer it away from being held offensively. The offensive stats are just not sweeper material, so the 80-ish range of these stats are acceptable in my opinion. Also, these stats don’t make our Pokemon weak when countering Pokemon, it still has decent enough power to hit stuff back.

About the Speed... This was probably the most difficult stat for me to decide on. I really didn’t want this CAP to be used offensively, but now with those non-sweep-ish offensive stats, I can safely enhance its Speed to higher levels. I was completely against getting higher 110, but now that I think about it, this CAP would really benefit from the Speed. With base 120 Speed, we are able to outspeed dangerous threats with minimal investment (depending on what it is), as well as outspeeding +1 Salamence, one of the threats that this CAP needs to be able to deal with, and a ton of others. With no Speed at all, we sit at 276 Speed, which already outspeeds a large amount of sweepers, such as Gyarados and Tyranitar. Since we have this much Speed, we are able to use a +(Special) Defense nature and still outpace +1 Salamence and the likes. Also, we don’t need to use a lot of Speed in general, because this CAP is unlikely to try and outpace Pokemon like Dugtrio, meaning we can outspeed what we want and we will most likely have more than enough EVs to use in the other stats. So basically, the Speed is not used for offensive purposes, it's used for defensive purposes.

Speed Landmarks

Below is a list of great Speed landmarks to hit with both neutral and positive natures.

[B]Neutral Nature[/B]

12 Speed (279): 252 Timid Heatran
16 Speed (280): 252 Adamant Lucario
20 Speed (281): 188 Timid Rotom-A
24 Speed (282): 220 Mild Electivire
36 Speed (285): 252 Jolly Mamoswine, 252 Jolly Dragonite
48 Speed (288): 252 Jolly Gyarados, 212 Timid Rotom-A
80 Speed (296): 252 Jolly Heracross, 252 Jolly Kingdra
92 Speed (299): 252 Timid Rotom-A
100 Speed (301): 252 Adamant Salamence, 252 Adamant Jirachi, 252 Modest Celebi, 252 Modest Zapdos, 252 Adamant Flygon
124 Speed (307): 252 Timid Roserade, 252 Jolly Lucario
132 Speed (309): 216 Jolly Gliscor
168 Speed (318): 252 Jolly Gliscor, 252 Jolly Electivire
220 Speed (330): 192 Jolly Infernape
224 Speed (331): 252 Adamant +1 Tyranitar
212 Speed (329): 252 Jolly Salamence, 252 Jolly Jirachi, 252 Timid Celebi, 252 Timid Zapdos, 252 Jolly Flygon

[B]Positive Nature[/B]

162 Speed (347): 252 Jolly Infernape
176 Speed (352): 252 Timid Gengar, 252 Timid Latias
180 Speed (353): 216 Timid Azelf
218 Speed (360): 252 Modest Jolteon
212 Speed (361): 252 Timid +1 Magnezone
216 Speed (363): 252 Timid Starmie, 252 Timid Azelf
224 Speed (365): 252 Jolly +1 Tyranitar

[B]Neutral Nature + Choice Scarf[/B]

0 Speed (414): 252 Jolly Weavile, 252 Jolly Aerodactyl, 252 Timid Jolteon, 252 Adamant +1 Kingdra, 252 Adamant +1 Gyarados
12 Speed (417): 252 Timid +1 Heatran
16 Speed (420): 132 Adamant +2 Metagross
40 Speed (429): 232 Modest +2 Empoleon
48 Speed (432): 252 Jolly +1 Gyarados
80 Speed (444): 252 Jolly +1 Kingdra
96 Speed (450): 252 Adamant +1 Flygon, 252 Adamant +1 Jirachi, 252 Adamant +1 Salamence, 252 Modest +1 Zapdos
176 Speed (480): 252 Adamant +2 Metagross, 252 Modest +1 Gengar, 252 Modest +1 Latias
212 Speed (493): 252 Jolly +1 Flygon, 252 Jolly +1 Jirachi, 252 Jolly +1 Salamence, 252 Timid +1 Zapdos
216 Speed (494): 252 Modest +1 Starmie, 252 Modest +1 Azelf

[B]Positive Nature + Choice Scarf[/B]

0 Speed (454): 252 Adamant +1 Flygon, 252 Adamant +1 Jirachi, 252 Adamant +1 Salamence, 252 Modest +1 Zapdos, 252 Jolly +1 Kingdra, 252 Jolly +1 Gyarados
60 Speed (480): 252 Adamant +2 Metagross, 252 Modest +1 Gengar, 252 Modest +1 Latias
96 Speed (495): 252 Jolly +1 Flygon, 252 Jolly +1 Jirachi, 252 Jolly +1 Salamence, 252 Timid +1 Zapdos, 252 Modest +1 Starmie, 252 Modest +1 Azelf
172 Speed (525): 252 Adamant +1 Weavile, 252 Modest +1 Jolteon
176 Speed (528): 252 Timid +1 Latias, 252 Timid +1 Gengar
216 Speed (544): 252 Timid +1 Starmie, 252 Timid +1 Azelf

As you can see, base 120 Speed gives this CAP a huge amount of freedom with what it wants to outpace. Whether you want to outspeed Choice Scarf Tyranitar or Dragon Dance Gyarados, you can build your EVs to fit your needs with great success.

To demonstrate attacks this Pokemon can handle and how much damage it can deal back, below are many defensive and offensive calculations. All of the Pokemon are assuming the highest possible (Special) Attack stat they use (some of them don’t use the highest, so remember this when viewing the calculations).

Defensive Calculations

The following calculations are being done with a spread of 52 HP (414 HP) / 252 Def with a +Defense nature (289 Def) / 124 Spe (307) to outpace Jolly Lucario. The remaining 80 EVs can be placed into any offensive stat or added to HP / Defense / Speed. (You can take out 8 EVs from Special Attack and put them into HP to achieve a Leftovers number at 416).

Adamant Life Orb 252 Atk +1 Gyarados using Waterfall: 27% - 32%
Same Gyarados using Bounce: 28% - 33%
Same Gyarados using Earthquake: 89% - 100%
Same Gyarados using Stone Edge: 45% - 53%

Adamant Life Orb 252 Atk Metagross using Meteor Mash: 12% - 14%
Same Metagross using Earthquake: 63% - 74%
Same Metagross using ThunderPunch: 24% - 28%
Same Metagross using Zen Headbutt: 38% - 45%

Adamant Life Orb 252 Atk +1 Salamence using Outrage: 85% - 100%
Same Salamence using Earthquake: 95% - 100%
Same Salamence using Dragon Claw: 57% - 67%

Adamant Life Orb 252 Atk +2 Lucario using Close Combat: 98% - 100%
Same Lucario using Crunch/ExtremeSpeed: 44% - 51%
Same Lucario using Ice Punch: 21% - 24%
Same Lucario using Stone Edge: 55% - 64%

Adamant Life Orb 252 Atk +2 Infernape using Close Combat: 94% - 100%
Same Infernape using Flare Blitz: 47% - 56%
Same Infernape using ThunderPunch: 39% - 46%

Adamant Choice Band 252 Atk Tyranitar using Crunch: 44% - 51%
Same Tyranitar using Stone Edge: 55% - 64%
Same Tyranitar using Aqua Tail: 16% - 19%
Same Tyranitar using Earthquake: 72% - 86%

Adamant 252 Atk Machamp using DynamicPunch: 36% - 42%
Same Machamp using Ice Punch: 9% - 10%
Same Machamp using Earthquake: 47% - 56%
Same Machamp using Stone Edge: 24% - 28%

Adamant Choice Band 252 Atk Scizor using U-turn: 37% - 44%
Same Scizor using Bullet Punch: 8% - 9%
Same Scizor using Superpower: 43% - 50%

The following calculations are being done with a defensive spread of 80 HP (421 HP) / 252 SpD with a +Special Defense nature (293 SpD) / 96 Spe (300 Spe) to outpace Timid Rotom-A and neutral natured base 100s. The remaining 80 EVs can be placed into any offensive stat or added to HP / Defense / Speed.

Timid Life Orb 252 SpA Heatran using Fire Blast: 24% - 29%
Same Heatran using Earth Power: 49% - 58%
Same Heatran using Dragon Pulse: 24% - 29%
Same Heatran using Hidden Power Grass: 38% - 46%

Modest Life Orb 252 SpA Magnezone using Thunderbolt: 42% - 50%
Same Magnezone using Hidden Power Grass: 42% - 50%
Same Magnezone using Flash Cannon: 9% - 10%

Timid Life Orb 252 SpA Gengar using Shadow Ball: 33% - 39%
Same Gengar using Thunderbolt: 26% - 31%
Same Gengar using Focus Blast: 33% - 38%
Same Gengar using Energy Ball: 43% - 52%

Timid 252 SpA Roserade using Leaf Storm: 86% - 100%

Timid Life Orb 252 SpA Shaymin using Seed Flare: 81% - 96%
Same Shaymin using Earth Power: 41% - 48%

Modest Life Orb 252 SpA +2 Togekiss using Air Slash: 31% - 37%
Same Togekiss using Aura Sphere: 50% - 59%

Modest Choice Specs 252 SpA Salamence using Draco Meteor: 64% - 76%
Same Salamence using Dragon Pulse: 41% - 49%
Same Salamence using Hydro Pump/Fire Blast: 18% - 22%

Timid Choice Specs 252 SpA Jolteon using Thunderbolt: 40% - 47%
Same Jolteon using Shadow Ball: 22% - 26%
Same Jolteon using Hidden Power Grass: 39% - 46%

Timid Life Orb 252 SpA Rotom-A using Shadow Ball: 28% - 33%
Same Rotom-A using Thunderbolt: 33% - 39%
Same Rotom-A using Leaf Storm: 66% - 77%

Timid Life Orb 252 SpA Starmie using Hydro Pump: 20% - 24%
Same Starmie using Thunderbolt: 21% - 25%
Same Starmie using Ice Beam: 11% - 13%
Same Starmie using 100 BP Grass Knot: 46% - 54%

Bold 0 SpA Celebi using 100 BP Grass Knot: 41% - 49%

Offensive Calculations

The following calculations are being done with 80 SpA (216 SpA). I decided to just show the calculations on the special side due to the stronger and greater special attacks it may have access to. I also did not go through every single Pokemon, just enough for you guys to get the idea of the power my spread holds.

[B]Hydro Pump[/B]

248 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Scizor: 42% - 49%
252 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Metagross: 35% - 42%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Gyarados: 18% - 21%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Salamence: 22% - 25%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Lucario: 57% - 67%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Rotom-A: 46% - 55%
252 HP / 0 SpD Relaxed Swampert: 32% - 38%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Flygon: 48% - 56%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Heatran: 69% - 82%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Infernape: 100%
0 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Jirachi: 35% - 41%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Jolteon: 46% - 54%
160 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Tyranitar: 41% - 49%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Gengar: 58% - 68%
252 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Gliscor: 85% - 100%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Starmie: 26% - 31%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Suicune: 13% - 15%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Zapdos: 34% - 40%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Magnezone: 46% - 54%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Latias: 16% - 19%

[B]Surf[/B]

248 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Scizor: 33% - 39%
252 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Metagross: 28% - 33%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Gyarados: 14% - 17%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Salamence: 17% - 20%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Lucario: 45% - 53%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Rotom-A: 37% - 44%
252 HP / 0 SpD Relaxed Swampert: 25% - 30% 
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Flygon: 37% - 44%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Heatran: 56% - 66%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Infernape: 85% - 100%
0 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Jirachi: 28% - 33%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Jolteon: 37% - 43%
160 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Tyranitar: 33% - 39%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Gengar: 35% - 54%
252 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Gliscor: 67% - 80%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Starmie: 21% - 24%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Suicune: 10% - 12%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Zapdos: 27% - 32%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Magnezone: 36% - 43%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Latias: 13% - 15%

[B]Thunderbolt[/B]

248 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Scizor: 33% - 39%
252 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Metagross: 28% - 33%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Gyarados: 100%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Salamence: 34% - 40%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Lucario: 45% - 53%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Rotom-A: 18% - 22%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Heatran: 28% - 33%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Infernape: 42% - 50%
0 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Jirachi: 28% - 33%
160 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Tyranitar: 17% - 21%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Gengar: 35% - 54%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Starmie: 83% - 97%
168 HP / 0 SpD Bold Vaporeon: 45% - 53%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Suicune: 42% - 49%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Zapdos: 27% - 32%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Magnezone: 18% - 21%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Latias: 13% - 15%

[B]Ice Beam[/B]

248 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Scizor: 11% - 13%
252 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Metagross: 9% - 11%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Gyarados: 19% - 23%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Salamence: 91% - 100%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Lucario: 15% - 17%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Rotom-A: 24% - 29%
252 HP / 0 SpD Relaxed Swampert: 17% - 20%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Flygon: 100%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Heatran: 5%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Infernape: 14% - 17%
0 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Jirachi: 9% - 11%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Jolteon: 24% - 29%
160 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Tyranitar: 11% - 13%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Gengar: 30% - 36%
252 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Gliscor: 89% - 100%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Starmie: 14% - 16%
168 HP / 0 SpD Bold Vaporeon: 7% - 9%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Suicune: 7% - 8%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Zapdos: 35% - 42%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Magnezone: 12% - 14%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Latias: 34% - 40%

[B]Fire Blast[/B]

248 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Scizor: 100%
252 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Metagross: 47% - 56%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Gyarados: 12% - 14%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Salamence: 15% - 17%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Lucario: 75% - 89%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Rotom-A: 31% - 37%
252 HP / 0 SpD Relaxed Swampert: 11% - 13%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Flygon: 16% - 19%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Infernape: 18% - 21%
0 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Jirachi: 46% - 55%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Jolteon: 31% - 36%
160 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Tyranitar: 7% - 8%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Gengar: 39% - 46%
252 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Gliscor: 29% - 34%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Starmie: 17% - 20%
168 HP / 0 SpD Bold Vaporeon: 9% - 11%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Suicune: 9% - 10%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Zapdos: 22% - 27%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Magnezone: 61% - 73%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Latias: 10% - 12%

[B]Flamethrower[/B]

248 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Scizor: 87% - 100%
252 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Metagross: 37% - 45%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Gyarados: 9% - 11%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Salamence: 11% - 13%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Lucario: 60% - 70%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Rotom-A: 24% - 29%
252 HP / 0 SpD Relaxed Swampert: 8% - 10%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Flygon: 12% - 15%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Infernape: 14% - 17%
0 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Jirachi: 37% - 44%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Jolteon: 24% - 29%
160 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Tyranitar: 6% - 7%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Gengar: 30% - 36%
252 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Gliscor: 22% - 27%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Starmie: 14% - 16%
168 HP / 0 SpD Bold Vaporeon: 7% - 9%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Suicune: 7% - 8%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Zapdos: 18% - 21%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Magnezone: 48% - 58%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Latias: 8% - 10%

Thank you for reading and I hope you consider my spread for CAP 10. :)

 

[Deck Knight]

Here's a novel idea: Let Salamence stand a chance against an Ice Beam-wielding CAP10 switching in. Not a 100% chance but a chance nonetheless. Make the player have to actually make their CAP10 a specific Mence counter and sacrifice the ability to counter, say, Rotom-A, just like in the damn concept! Likewise, let a CAP10 designed to counter Lucario fail to counter Salamence, just like in the damn concept!

You cannot make it so that any given Pokemon can't take out a pokemon with a common 4x weakness and a pokemon with paperish defenses and common weaknesses. Lucario's best STAB lowers its defenses to abysmal levels. Lucario is its own worst enemy provided you can survive its attacks. Salamence of all things doesn't need any coddling. Any spread that counters a pokemon by being faster than it necessarily threatens a pokemon slower than the original threat.

Suppose that CAP10 gets base 105 speed. Considering the defences also being given to CAP10, this means that it will always beat Gyarados and Salamence if it wields a scarf, and even if it doesn't, CAP10 still always beats Lucario, Tyranitar, Rotom-A, Scizor, non-scarf Heatran, Jirachi, Celebi, non-scarf Flygon, Skarmory, Hippowdon and Gliscor with a moveset of Surf, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam and Hidden Power Ghost or Shadow Ball. Utility counter = countering at most five or six different major threats with four moves. Utility counter =/= countering more than ten different major threats with four moves.

Oh no! It theoretically beats pokemon with paper defenses and also pokemon weak to it's STABs and coverage moves! I'm LOLing at Jirachi though. Jirachi just CM's on a pokemon with 212 Special Attack as is provided in my Mence counter scenario. Even then, the Max SA you can run with 105 Base Speed is 293. That's Max with Modest. I don't know where you're getting your arguments from but it's a pretty weak brew.

Or is yours a special kind of CAP10 that holds Choice Scarf, Leftovers, and Life Orb at the same time, in addition to being Modest, Bold, Timid, and Calm simultaneously? And it has 252 EVs in HP, Defense, Spe, SpA, and SpD, assuredly.

I don't know why you get yourself worked up like this Objection. Not to mention if you're throwing Scarf on this pokemon, so it gets locked in to one of those moves. Special Defensive Tyranitar is going to eat your lunch even if you are using Surf.

EDIT: CAP10 will have a diverse movepool because that is what makes the concept. Therefore, since CAP10 could be running anything, slower targets have no reason to stay in. If CAP10 has higher base speed than Lucario, then Lucario will never stay in. If CAP10 has higher base speed than Salamence, then Salamence will never stay in. If CAP10 has higher base speed than Latias, then Latias will never stay in. In this way, CAP10 soft counters everything it outspeeds. The concept says that CAP10 should counter few pokemon at once, not many pokemon at once. Therefore, high speed goes against the concept.

Lucario has apparently lost Extremespeed, Mence Dragon Dance, and Latias the ability to CM in your face if you try an UnSTAB Ice Beam on it. I don't know where you come up with the idea that the prospect of being hit by a faster opponent always makes your opponent switch to avoid a hit. One of their pokemon is taking a hit anyway if they switch.

Besides, if CAP10 has a lower base speed than the threat you want it to counter, slap a Choice Scarf on it, and if that doesn't work, run an ability that will help against the target - assuming that CAP10 gets an ability that helps against the target.

"Slap a Choice Scarf on it." Yeah, because Choice Scarf has no weak. If you are slower than DDMence and you use Choice Scarf guess what, "Slap a Choice Scarf on it" failed. You will still take a hit, and you'd better hope you can survive in your current state because you have no protection from hazards or weather.

I don't want to give Salamence "a chance" to counter any variant of CAP10 because of poor speed. Salamence has more than enough "chances" to do that to pokemon in OU already. Giving Salamence "a chance" is more commonly known as "allowing your opponent to set up a sweep."

 

[tennisace]

Just a general thing, don't quote the entire spread. What you should do is just put the stat numbers in the quote so we know what you're talking about when you critique it. For a good example of a critique, look at this one.

 

[beej]

Some of you guys really need to pay attention to the other spreads in this thread to make sure that you aren't making something too similar. There are a lot of them that are basically this gigantic HP and fast Speed, attack stats in the 80s models that are really not all that different. Deck Knight's is like the only one that posted calcs out of those types of spreads too. With that said, some of the spreads with high HP and high Speed do have some interesting quirks that set them apart from Deck's spread, and so this doesn't apply to all of you.

I think that some of the spreads in here are very interesting, and it should be known that when it comes to making my slate, I am probably going to aim for as much diversity as possible in regard to what goes on there. From briefly scanning the thread, examples of quality spreads that I think are either significantly different from each other overall, or have defining characteristics that set them apart from each other include, but are not limited to, Deck Knight's (a lot of spreads are similar to his, not the other way around), reachzero's and ZystraL's. These exemplify a level of diversity that I am aiming for, though they're not the only good ones here.

I will be back to survey the thread later. Keep up the good work!

 

[Anachronism]

Okay, my top 6 right now is Rising Dusk, Dominion, Vaz, Deck Knight, petrie911, and toshimelonhead in no particular order.

I slowly narrowed down the list based on my preferences, outlined below.

greater than 100 base speed to deal with Salamence and other faster threats more effectively. As Jibaku said, speed is a form of defense, and it is fairly impossible to come into Mence if you have less speed than it (with this typing).

high HP (I would say at least over 110) to force specific defensive investment is clearly to our advantage if we want this to take out a discreet set of threats.

Attacking stats lower than base 90: This cap will most likely end up using similar coverage to Starmie (Electric, Water, Ice) simply because it gets good coverage and uses both stabs effectively. If we give this thing too much attack, we can expect it to be a better sweeper than Starmie considering the bulk and speed we are looking at and the fact that it gets stab on Electric, and sweeping is clearly not what we are aiming for with this CAP. My specified level of attack gives it enough power to hit things for 1-2hkos with the right attacks, but keeps it from being able to OHKO things too easily.

A BST between 550-570 is optimal for what we want to do. Giving a combination of stats much higher than this makes a pokemon of this typing too good, and any lower than my minimum starts to make CAP 10 a bit too underpowered. In my opinion this range is just right for what we want to accomplish here, which is make CAP 10 an effective counter without giving it the stats to become a credible sweeper.

These are all of the spreads submitted so far

Yllnath: 180/50/50/60/60/100=500
Squitle: 144/60/82/50/92/112=540
hailflameblast: 104/84/97/83/99/105=572
Rising Dusk: 125/84/85/83/86/102=565
reachzero: 115/95/90/85/90/90=565
Scoopapa: 90/100/125/65/95/85=530
Dominion: 112/80/90/80/90/103=555
Admiral Korski: 75/130/120/130/105/40=600
Dr. Attack: 130/75/70/80/75/110=540
ZystraL: 100/80/100/80/100/100=570
Defyin: 104/83/95/83/95/105=565
Vaz: 143/85/75/85/75/102=565
toshimelonhead: 143/87/77/84/78/101=570
Maci12: 135/104/70/103/71/82=565
Gothic Togekiss: 150/95/73/94/74/87=573
tawp64: 60/65/120/105/130/75=555
Shock Trooper: 96/101/103/99/105/85=589
Deck Knight: 151/84/73/83/74/105=570
Mountain Dewgong: 115/90/90/90/90/90=565
hydrolphin: 85/79/96/82/113/110
petrie911: 145/81/71/81/72/115=565
Admiral Stalfos19: 130/105/82/124/78/61=580
Rhys29: 168/95/66/78/66/87=560
MurrMurr: 105/84/94/83/97/102=575
Zari: 108/82/95/80/96/104=565
ferron: 172/90/65/90/65/91=573
lati0s: 249/84/45/83/46/101=608
Jibaku: 156/87/71/86/72/98=570
Fuzznip: 130/81/82/80/84/120=577

I then started narrowing down the list

More than 100 Speed:
Squitle
hailflameblast
rising dusk
dominion
dr. attack
defyin
Vaz
toshimelonhead
Deck Knight
hydrolphin
petrie911
MurrMurr
Zari
lati0s
Fuzznip

Less than 600 BST:
Squitle
hailflameblast
rising dusk
dominion
dr. attack
defyin
Vaz
toshimelonhead
Deck Knight
hydrolphin
petrie911
MurrMurr
Zari
Fuzznip

More than 550 BST:
hailflameblast
rising dusk
dominion
defyin
Vaz
toshimelonhead
Deck Knight
hydrolphin
petrie911
MurrMurr
Zari
Fuzznip

Over 100 HP:
hailflameblast
Rising Dusk
Dominion
Defyin
Vaz
toshimelonhead
Deck Knight
petrie911
MurrMurr
Zari
Fuzznip

570 or less BST:
Rising Dusk
Dominion
Defyin
Vaz
toshimelonhead
Deck Knight
petrie911
Zari

More than 110 HP:
Rising Dusk: 125/84/85/83/86/102=565
Dominion: 112/80/90/80/90/103=555
Vaz: 143/85/75/85/75/102=565
toshimelonhead: 143/87/77/84/78/101=570
Deck Knight: 151/84/73/83/74/105=570
petrie911: 145/81/71/81/72/115=565

I hope that this post can serve as a checklist for things that I am fairly sure a good portion of the community agrees with.

 

[Rhys29]

Lucario's best STAB lowers its defenses to abysmal levels. Lucario is its own worst enemy provided you can survive its attacks. Salamence of all things doesn't need any coddling. Any spread that counters a pokemon by being faster than it necessarily threatens a pokemon slower than the original threat.

A lot of somewhat jumbled words but I think I understand what you're saying. However the point about Lucario is supporting low speeds. You know your current base 84 Attack fails to OHKO Lucario reliably.

+ Nature base 84 Attack's Earthquake vs. standard Lucario: 238 - 282 (84.40% - 100.00%)

This supports using a lower base Speed to use Lucario's Def drop against it. It would then be open to a Crunch/Extremespeed followed by Close Combat to prevent CAP10's first attack from dealing enough damage, however then you can increase your base Attack to a level in which you can OHKO. This is one of the reasons we supporters of <100 base speed ask: do we need to give CAP10 an advantage it doesn't need?

Jirachi just CM's on a pokemon with 212 Special Attack as is provided in my Mence counter scenario. Even then, the Max SA you can run with 105 Base Speed is 293. That's Max with Modest... Special Defensive Tyranitar is going to eat your lunch even if you are using Surf... and Latias the ability to CM in your face if you try an UnSTAB Ice Beam on it.

This is a great point. Using one offensive side isn't too hard to take. Anything setting up on that side, such as Curse Snorlax and CM Latias, will be able to wall you in due time no matter your Speed. However, offenses should not be the only thing to stop these threats. I use the term offenses lightly. I think some people need to make sure they understand this. The only spreads capable of taking down Snorlax with offenses alone are spreads with massive Att stats, such as Admiral Stalfos19's. And even his will struggle.

This doesn't help the argument either way but it is good to note the offenses will only go so far.

Lucario has apparently lost Extremespeed, Mence Dragon Dance, I don't know where you come up with the idea that the prospect of being hit by a faster opponent always makes your opponent switch to avoid a hit. One of their pokemon is taking a hit anyway if they switch.

This isn't a great argument, even without the example. You clearly point out the offenses will only go so far with prediction and switching, but then say threats will be hesitant to switch out of a looming OHKO attack before they can really do anything (which is what this CAP will do with higher speeds). I don't see many people make the logical choice of staying in against Vaporeon with Gyarados even after it's set up DD just to score a hit when it know's it will be OHKO'd regardless. And even then the good players who do use Vaporeon as a leeway to their next offensive sweeper most of the time.

Salamence doesn't stay in on Weavile unless it's locked into Outrage. It's simply stupid of the player. Running higher base speeds will force more switches. This will help against opponents like Salamence, but what about other threats who aren't weak to entry hazards like Stealth Rock? Not to mention most sets can survive any attack even an Adamant DD Mence can dish out and in turn OHKO. This is once again where we <100 guys ask: do we need to give CAP10 an advantage it doesn't need?

"Slap a Choice Scarf on it." Yeah, because Choice Scarf has no weak. If you are slower than DDMence and you use Choice Scarf guess what, "Slap a Choice Scarf on it" failed. You will still take a hit, and you'd better hope you can survive in your current state because you have no protection from hazards or weather.

This supports the "cannot counter everything" statement. If a Choice Scarf was thrown on CAP10 with lower than base 100 Speed, its target should not be specifically countering Dragon Dance Salamence. If there was any Salamence set it was designed to bring down, it would be the MixSweeper. It tempts Salamence to stay in and finish off the CAP who will be taking a lethal hit. This means it can counter a specific mixsweeper (not MixMence, but I feel close enough), but it cannot effectively bring down a set up sweeper with the same set. I think this supports the mission statement.

I don't want to give Salamence "a chance" to counter any variant of CAP10 because of poor speed. Salamence has more than enough "chances" to do that to pokemon in OU already. Giving Salamence "a chance" is more commonly known as "allowing your opponent to set up a sweep."

As I say in my spread, Salamence will be a big issue for CAP10. It can do basically everything but be a Special Set Up (it is still a Special Sweeper threat with Choice Specs, it just cannot set up) sweeper in terms of offense. I personally believe if a set is meant to deal with MixMence (good luck with that regardless of your speed but none-the-less) it shouldn't be able to deal with DD Mence. Using a Choice Scarf on a >100 base speed poke and provided it can take atleast one hit from MixMence, it can counter both.

I see a lot of merits with being able to counter both sets of Salamence. I would 100% support your cause, Salamence was the reason I stopped playing, if I didn't feel it went against the statement. I think we each need to specify what we get out of the statement if we wish to discuss something like this (this doesn't mean 'post your opinion and nothing else'). You could see a specific threat as a single Pokemon: Salamence. I see the specific sets as specific threats: MixMence and DDMence. And with my previous reasoning, I don't want to give CAP10 something that would, from my perspective, break the mission objective.

If I were to support >100 Speed, Rising Dusk would get my first vote, but Dominion and Deck Knight provide other great spreads, though they are all very similar. Rising Dusk's barely over 100 speed and decent offenses make me simply like the concept more but it only works slightly more towards my liking than the others.

For <100, I would of course support my own, ReachZero's, and Admiral Stalfos' spread. ReachZero's spread is all around what I'm basically looking for (except the HP/Def could use an adjustment to improve damage resistance) and does what it needs to without giving CAP10 something it doesn't need at this stage. The bare minimum is what I see as the most useful in spreads. Admiral Stalfos managed to do what no one else really pulled off: an original spread. I am extremely iffy about 124 Sp.A as it is incredibly incredibly potent and I feel it would simply garner a slow Specs CAP that will just smash everything with bulky defenses, I suppose functioning somewhat similarily to Specs Heatran. If that was tweaked I would have no issues with it.

 

[Dominion]

I'm starting to like the idea of, lets call it "Snorlax-HP" style spreads.

Base HP in the 140-150 range is HUGE. Thats over 500 with EVs. Consider Rest and other recovery moves on this pokemon, thats scary. I point out Rest particularily because, well, to say this CAP won't have rest is like saying Magikarp won't have splash in it's movepool.

While Snorlax-HP is fine, I fear it'll cripple it's defenses to an extreme I'm not willing to go. High HP is something I vote for, but does this cap really need 150ish? I'm not against it but there are some key differences between 150/70/70 and 110/90/90.

With 150/70/70 Rest becomes extremely powerful as well as doing a 0/252/252 HP/Def/SDF spread. As, we all know, The higher your base is, the less effective each EV becomes in proportionate to the Total stat.

With 110/90/90 Quicker recovery options become a tad more useful than, say, Rest. Also, this spread isn't fearful of Moves that take off a percentage of HP, such as Stealth Rock, Poison, Spikes, etc.

For example:
Snorlax (Base 160) takes 68 points of damage on the switch-in if Stealth Rocks are in play.
Lickilicky (base 110) takes 56 points of damage on the switch-in if Stealth Rocks are on play

So, It's a fair tradeoff. Hgiher base HP means recovery moves are much more effective, but the CAP becomes more vulnerable to moves such as Stealth Rock, Toxic, Spikes, etc.

 

[lati0s]

Higher base HP does not change the effectiveness of recovery moves. recovery moves work based on percentages and percentages are all that really matter except against seismic toss.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Considering how Rhys was constantly arguing over how high speed isn't going to help this creature, I decided to "support" his beliefs and make a spread using Rhys' magic Speed number. I really was scrapping the bottom of the barrel to make this work, but then again I was doing that with my first stat spread and I got to actually go back and put support material within it. Is it similar to some of the other stat spread shown? Yes probably but then they're only so many ways you can make a stat spread with Rank 6 in offense and Rank 7 in defense.

150 / 95 / 73 / 94 / 74 / 87
Total: 573

PS: 149 Good
PD: 174 Very Good
SS: 149 Good
PD: 174 Very Good
ODB: -4.29 Slightly biased towards Defense
PSB: 0.09 Slightly biased towards Physical
Overall Rating: 359 Excellent

150/73/74 HP, Defense, Special Defense:
I know what you're going to say, "Not another High HP/Low Defense Pokemon" but sadly enough it's seems that it provides a more stable defense than those with Low HP and High Def. 150/73/74 is within the same level of sturdiness as Celebi's who has 100/100/100 in HP/Def/SpD.

Physical Defensive calculations Assuming 252/252 HP/Def Bold or Impish CAP10

Adamant Life Orb 252 Atk +1 Gyarados using Waterfall: 23.6% - 28%
Same Gyarados using Bounce: 25.2% - 29.8%
Same Gyarados using Earthquake: 79% - 93.3%
Same Gyarados using Stone Edge: 39.5% - 46.6%

Adamant Life Orb 252 Atk Metagross using Meteor Mash: 10.3% - 12.3%
Same Metagross using Earthquake: 56% - 65.9%
Same Metagross using ThunderPunch: 20.6% - 24.6%
Same Metagross using Zen Headbutt: 33.5% - 39.5%

Naive Life Orb 252 Atk +1 Salamence using Outrage: 67.3% - 79.4%
Same Salamence using Earthquake: 75% - 88.5%
Same Salamence using Dragon Claw: 45.2% - 53.2%

Adamant Life Orb 252 Atk +2 Lucario using Close Combat: 86.5% - 102%
Same Lucario using Crunch/ExtremeSpeed: 38.3% - 45.2%
Same Lucario using Ice Punch: 17.9% - 21.2%
Same Lucario using Stone Edge: 48.2% - 56.7%

Jolly Life Orb 252 Atk +2 Infernape using Close Combat: 75.8% - 89.5%
Same Infernape using Flare Blitz: 37.9% - 44.6%
Same Infernape using ThunderPunch: 31.3% - 37.3%
Same Infernape using Stone Edge: 42.1% - 49.6%

Adamant Choice Band 252 Atk Tyranitar using Crunch: 38.3% - 45.2%
Same Tyranitar using Stone Edge: 47.8% - 56.5%
Same Tyranitar using Aqua Tail: 14.3% - 16.9%
Same Tyranitar using Earthquake: 63.9% - 75.4%

Adamant 252 Atk Machamp using DynamicPunch: 31.5% - 37.1%
Same Machamp using Ice Punch: 7.7% - 9.3%
Same Machamp using Earthquake: 42.1% - 49.6%
Same Machamp using Stone Edge: 21% - 24.8%
Same Machamp using Close Combat: 37.5% - 44.2%

Adamant Choice Band 252 Atk Scizor using U-turn: 32.9% - 38.9%
Same Scizor using Bullet Punch: 6.9% - 8.3%
Same Scizor using Superpower: 37.5% - 44.2%

Special Defensive calculations Assuming 252/252 HP/Def Calm or Careful CAP10

Timid Life Orb 252 SpA Heatran using Fire Blast: 22% - 26%
Same Heatran using Earth Power: 44.4% - 52.4%
Same Heatran using Hidden Power Grass: 34.1% - 40.5%

Modest Life Orb 252 SpA Magnezone using Thunderbolt: 38.5% - 45.2%
Same Magnezone using Hidden Power Grass: 38.1% - 44.8%
Same Magnezone using Flash Cannon: 7.9% - 9.5%

Timid Life Orb 252 SpA Gengar using Shadow Ball: 29.8% - 35.1%
Same Gengar using Thunderbolt: 23.4% - 27.4%
Same Gengar using Focus Blast: 29.4% - 34.7%
Same Gengar using Energy Ball: 39.7% - 46.8%

Timid 252 SpA Roserade using Leaf Storm: 77.4% - 90.9%

Timid Life Orb 252 SpA Shaymin using Seed Flare: 73.8% - 86.9%
Same Shaymin using Earth Power: 36.9% - 43.7%

Modest 252 SpA +2 Togekiss using Air Slash: 10.1% - 12.1%
Same Togekiss using Aura Sphere: 32.5% - 38.5%

Modest Choice Specs 252 SpA Salamence using Draco Meteor: 57.7% - 68.1%
Same Salamence using Dragon Pulse: 37.1% - 44%
Same Salamence using Hydro Pump/Fire Blast: 16.5% - 19.4%

Timid Choice Specs 252 SpA Jolteon using Thunderbolt: 35.7% - 42.1%
Same Jolteon using Shadow Ball: 20.2% - 23.8%
Same Jolteon using Hidden Power Grass: 35.3% - 41.7%

Timid Life Orb 252 SpA Rotom-A using Shadow Ball: 25.2% - 30%
Same Rotom-A using Thunderbolt: 29.8% - 35.3%
Same Rotom-A using Leaf Storm: 59.1% - 69.8%

Timid Life Orb 252 SpA Starmie using Hydro Pump: 18.5% - 21.6%
Same Starmie using Thunderbolt: 19.4% - 23%
Same Starmie using Ice Beam: 9.7% - 11.5%
Same Starmie using 100 BP Grass Knot: 40.9% - 48.4%

Bold 0 SpA Celebi using 100 BP Grass Knot: 37.3% - 44.4%

95/94 Attack & Special Attack: Provides it with enough power to threaten things it's specifically suppose to counter, but not enough to become an offensive threat itself.

87 Speed: Not too fast but not too slow. It's sit within a perfect parameters for CAP10 needs because at maximum it beats neutral base 100 Pokemon without actually breaking base 100. It make it so that CAP10 requires Choice Scarf to beat certain threats like Salamence.

 

[Dr. Attack]

In defense of my own stat spread I feel that a lower BST of 540 would really force complete stat optimization to take down a specific threat. Once you start hitting the 570-600ish totals you start becoming more than a utility counter.

 

[Seizen]

@Rhys29 & Deck Knight: Though I've been reading this argument through, I'm not sure I follow - is it still "x<100 vs. 100<x" or is it "Can Salamence be countered without high-speed?"
To be honest, you both need to just agree to disagree and stop arguing - it's not helping any and we got your respective views on it within these three pages...

@lati0s: If you have higher HP, then while both Pokemon gain the same percentage, one will have gained more HP. I think that's the point Dominion is trying to make.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, it's true we need to factor in the ability, but the submissions should be made without that. Yes, if the build that wins was built to survive EQ and then outspeed non-priority users next turn then gains Levitate, it's initial build design becomes flawed, but it still survives other physical attacks, all potentially very lethal. So it doesn't loose anything, just then it has a back-up if Gravity gets pulled.

Build-wise, I'm supporting Deck Knight's, on the basis he's using fairly different and has thoroughly explained his reasoning for it. If I can see where it's coming from, it's going to get more support.

 

[toshimelonhead]

I have decided to rework my stat spread. My new submission is:

HP: 133
Attack: 84
Defense: 81
Special Attack:83
Special Defense: 82
Speed: 105
Total BST: 568

I realized that my previous submission was almost the same as Vaz's, so I modified my defensive stats a little bit. I finally learned how to modify base stats on the Smogon damage calculator, so I wanted to know with 298 Base Stat "points" how I could utilize them to minimize damage on two of the strongest attacks in the game: +1 Outrage from DD Mence and Draco Meteor from CS Latias. Anything lower than this will go out of the Rank 7 base stat ratings. These calculations are with no EV investment.

HP Def SDef Salamence positive nature Latias positive nature
151 73 74 298 112.3-131.4 102.7-120.8 96.8-114 88-103.8
149 74 75 298
147 75 76 298 113.1-133.1 103-121.4 96.6-113.8 87.8-103.7
145 76 77 298
143 77 78 298 112.3-132.8 102.6-120.8 96.3-113.3 87.4-103.3
141 78 79 298
139 79 80 298 112.3-132.3 102.2-120.7 96.2-113.4 87.6-103.3
137 80 81 298
135 81 82 298 111.9-132.1 102.4-120.7 95.9-113.1 87.1-102.9
133 82 83 298
131 83 84 298 112.4-132.5 102-120.1 96.1-113.2 87.3-103
129 84 85 298
127 85 86 298 112.4-132.4 102.5-120.8 95.9-113.2 87.5-103.3
125 86 87 298
123 87 88 298 112.7-132.8 102.6-120.9 96.4-113.4 87.6-103.1
121 88 89 298
119 89 90 298 112.7-133 102.9-121.1 96-113.5 87.7-103.4
117 90 91 298
115 91 92 298 113.2-133.4 103-121.6 96.5-114 87.9-103.7
113 92 93 298
111 93 94 298 113.2-133.3 103.3-121.8 97-114.3 88.4-104.1

This chart indicates optimal defenses with 135 HP, 81 Defense, 82 Special Defense.

Then I realized that I had to work with rank 5 and rank 6 instead of rank 6 and rank 7. The max attack/special attack allowed then was 84/83. I redid the Salamence DD Outrage calculation to optimize minimal damage:

HP Def SDef Salamence positive nature
151 73 74 298 112.3-131.4 102.7-120.8 (Deck Knight's spread)
147 74 75 296
145 75 76 296 114.2-134.3 103.9-122.5
143 76 77 296
141 77 78 296 113.7-134 103.5-122
139 78 79 296
137 79 80 296 113.5-133.7 103.6-122.2
135 80 81 296
133 81 82 296 113-133.4 103.4-121.9 (My spread)
131 82 83 296 113.9-134 103.4-121.9
129 83 84 296 113.5-133.8 103-121.3
127 84 85 296
125 85 86 296 113.6-133.8 103.6-122
123 86 87 296
121 87 88 296 113.8-134.2 103.7-122.2
119 88 89 296

Since that is still a OHKO, I did the calculations with max HP/defenses and a positive nature:
151 73 74 298 113.3-136.6 103.6-121.9 67% - 79.1%--Deck
133 81 82 296 113-133.4 103.4-122.9 67.7-79.8--Mine
131 82 83 296 113.9-134 103.4-121.9 67.8-80
129 83 84 296 113.5-133.8 103-121.3 68.2-80.5

Deck's spread actually does better with HP/Defense investment, while mine does better without any investment.

I changed the speed from 101 to 105 because I had extra bst and it was the maximum allowed without changing my sweepiness ranks. This also allows it to outspeed Jolly Lucario with a Neutral nature. I'll also provide alternative spreads because I am not sold on 100+ speed to outspeed DDMence. If it DDs when you switch it in, more speed won't help unless you scarf it. Base 91 allows CAP 10 to outspeed Jolly Lucario, base 82 allows it to outspeed Specstran, Jolly Mamoswine, Offensive CM Suicune, Jolly DD Gyara, and Adamant Lucario. Here would be the modified spreads:

133/91/81/90/82/91
133/101/81/91/82/82

101 attack is what I had on my first spread before I edited it to fit the requirements, as STAB Volt Tackle can do 54.5% - 64.4% to standard WishBliss. The OU metagame does not have a physical Electric type except for Electivire.

Here's the check for the main spread:
Does it fit Beej's parameters of rank 5 attack, rank 6 defenses? Yes
Does it fit all of Anachronism's requirements? Yes

Is it "unique" from any other stat submission that also fits these parameters? It is similar to Deck Knight's, but I optimized the defensive stats. Whether or not that is enough is questionable at best. Deck's is actually a little bit better defensive wise because he snuck in 298 BST "points" while mine only has 296 without breaking any other guidelines.