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CAP 10 CAP 10 - Stat Spread Submissions
- Thread starter beej
- Start date
- Status
I said this at the very beginning. My original spread said something on the lines of this and I still believe this to be true. Anything above, say, base 130 HP starts gaining some useful perks but also some nasty weaknesses. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the higher a stat is, the less beneficial EV's become to that stat due to proportionalism. Once agian, we can use Blissey as an example; It's base hp is so high that EVs put into it's HP stat are next to useless. Thus, you just cram EVs into it's defenses to synergize with it's massive health.
Percentile moves are very effective against/for high base HP pokemon. Like I said, recovery moves are much more effective, Toxic is evil, Deck pointed out the facts of Life Orb (One I forgot but would hurt this CAP's sweepiness due to it's higher hp), Stealth Rock and other percentile moves become much stronger.
Remember, Celebi is already a threat to this CAP and many Celebi still use Leech Seed. Something that could really hurt this CAP.
So, I still support my spread alittle more. It has the high HP and Speed like many support. But it doesn't take it to an extreme and levels out defenses fairly well.
112/80/90/80/90/103
Btw, I like Fuzznip's speed calcs, I still like my 103, as any more speed would force me to move some points from Attack/S.Attack, and 80 is already fairly low.
My problem with massive HP stats and pitiful defensive stats is that an EV spread of 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD is arguably the best for that type of Pokemon to cover as many threats as possible. With its already gigantic HP stat, it gains virtually nothing from investing 252 EVs into HP. Here, let me show you with your own stat spread; Lucario is a good example:
The difference is less than 5%. Meanwhile, investing those 252 EVs into SpD instead of HP does the following for you (assuming the exact same 'mon with the same nature):
That is a difference of a whopping 25% damage. Now, that takes the Draco Meteor from having a chance at OHKOing you after SR to being able to manage a 2HKO at best under similar conditions.
In this light, there is an optimal EV spread for your high HP Pokemon, one that is vastly superior to all other spreads that lets it successfully wall a large portion of the metagame at once. That means that you won't, if you want the optimal version of your CAP10, specifically design your EVs to certain threats. You will simply use the best set and then go from there. That is the difference between being a utility counter, which your stat distribution fails to be, and being a wall, which is what your stat distribution ends up becoming.
Code:
4/252 Bold Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Lucario Close Combat : 44.3% - 52.2%
252/252 Bold Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Lucario Close Combat : 40.4% - 47.6%
Code:
252/4 Bold Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Timid Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor : 79.4% - 93.5%
4/252 Bold Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Timid Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor : 58.6% - 68.9%In this light, there is an optimal EV spread for your high HP Pokemon, one that is vastly superior to all other spreads that lets it successfully wall a large portion of the metagame at once. That means that you won't, if you want the optimal version of your CAP10, specifically design your EVs to certain threats. You will simply use the best set and then go from there. That is the difference between being a utility counter, which your stat distribution fails to be, and being a wall, which is what your stat distribution ends up becoming.
I'm going to take the time to evaluate some of the individual spreads, or at least the common builds, that have been posted here, so that you can see my opinions of them early on and fix them up accordingly. The ones shown here are a combination of really well-presented spreads that I favor, and ones that I think are interesting but need to present more detail through presentation somehow. I understand that the parameters I set are somewhat limiting, but the variety of good submissions in this thread prove that it's very possible to differentiate yourself.
It should be noted that if your post is thin with only a spread, no calculations and a few words, I will tend to pass over it. This also goes for spreads that are really similar to others, yet aren't presented as well. You should be presenting the merits of your spread very clearly. If you think it's a good, NEW spread, it shouldn't be hard to prove why it is.
This spread was very well-presented overall, as all of the stats in correspondence to each other were justified, and in addition to posting calcs, they were posted with specific threats/spreads in mind for individual occasions. In addition to the lower HP and higher defenses, what sets this spread apart from others is the ability to outrun stuff like Gengar and Latias and hit them first. This set has a considerable amount of bulk, but having that kind of Speed lessons the need to be able to take more than one attack in a row after switching in. This is currently one of my favorites.
This is the most high-profile large HP, somewhat small defenses spread here, primarily as a result of the extensive calculations, both offensive and defensive, and the analyses/justifications written up for the stats that were chosen in this spread. The thing about having large HP and low defenses is that you can effectively boost one of your defenses a lot higher than the other, which means that your ability to customize your defensiveness is increased quite a bit. The main purpose of 105 is outrunning Mence, which is a fair benchmark.
One thing that immediately jumped out at me when I first saw this spread is that the defenses are not balanced. There is a considerable amount more SpD than Defense on this one. While I think that the extra SpD can be quite invaluable for switching into Draco Meteors and whatnot, and the 110 Speed allows you to outrun many threats and hit them before they finish you off, I really don't understand how you can expect to respond to many of the dangerous physical threats in the game with 85/96 physical Defense. Lucario, in particular, is somewhat troublesome. We can't really expect any spread that we come up with to be able to take two Close Combats, so that would make the goal surviving a single CC and being able to take an Extremespeed while hitting back with some move, which you admitted might be a problem. So I would like to see what sorts of merits your spread has that may make up for this problem.
This is another significantly different spread. Rather than focusing on increased Speed, this spread lowers it down to 61 for the purpose of gaining more offense. The defensive stats are still quite good in a way that's reflected by other large HP/low Defense stats. For these reasons, this spread grabbed my attention over some of the others that were well-presented, but were extremely similar to other spreads. However, I find the calculations kind of confusing in the post, because it doesn't specify the sets that are being used by CAP10 in the various scenarios presented, and I would really like to know what this Pokemon can do when customized to respond to individual sets. So I would ask you to post the sets that are being used in the calcs, Stalfos.
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This doesn't represent the only spreads that I've paid attention to. I will make another one of these posts tomorrow.
It should be noted that if your post is thin with only a spread, no calculations and a few words, I will tend to pass over it. This also goes for spreads that are really similar to others, yet aren't presented as well. You should be presenting the merits of your spread very clearly. If you think it's a good, NEW spread, it shouldn't be hard to prove why it is.
Gothic_Togekiss said:
This spread was very well-presented overall, as all of the stats in correspondence to each other were justified, and in addition to posting calcs, they were posted with specific threats/spreads in mind for individual occasions. In addition to the lower HP and higher defenses, what sets this spread apart from others is the ability to outrun stuff like Gengar and Latias and hit them first. This set has a considerable amount of bulk, but having that kind of Speed lessons the need to be able to take more than one attack in a row after switching in. This is currently one of my favorites.
Deck Knight said:
This is the most high-profile large HP, somewhat small defenses spread here, primarily as a result of the extensive calculations, both offensive and defensive, and the analyses/justifications written up for the stats that were chosen in this spread. The thing about having large HP and low defenses is that you can effectively boost one of your defenses a lot higher than the other, which means that your ability to customize your defensiveness is increased quite a bit. The main purpose of 105 is outrunning Mence, which is a fair benchmark.
hydrolphin said:
One thing that immediately jumped out at me when I first saw this spread is that the defenses are not balanced. There is a considerable amount more SpD than Defense on this one. While I think that the extra SpD can be quite invaluable for switching into Draco Meteors and whatnot, and the 110 Speed allows you to outrun many threats and hit them before they finish you off, I really don't understand how you can expect to respond to many of the dangerous physical threats in the game with 85/96 physical Defense. Lucario, in particular, is somewhat troublesome. We can't really expect any spread that we come up with to be able to take two Close Combats, so that would make the goal surviving a single CC and being able to take an Extremespeed while hitting back with some move, which you admitted might be a problem. So I would like to see what sorts of merits your spread has that may make up for this problem.
Admiral_Stalfos19 said:
This is another significantly different spread. Rather than focusing on increased Speed, this spread lowers it down to 61 for the purpose of gaining more offense. The defensive stats are still quite good in a way that's reflected by other large HP/low Defense stats. For these reasons, this spread grabbed my attention over some of the others that were well-presented, but were extremely similar to other spreads. However, I find the calculations kind of confusing in the post, because it doesn't specify the sets that are being used by CAP10 in the various scenarios presented, and I would really like to know what this Pokemon can do when customized to respond to individual sets. So I would ask you to post the sets that are being used in the calcs, Stalfos.
Mountain Dewgong said:
These two spreads posted by MD and reachzero represent another type of build, different from the rest, that has emerged. Both of you guys have given general justifications for the numbers that you've chosen, but there aren't any calculations of any sort that can display how these spreads perform. I am particularly interested in seeing you edit in calculations and further expand upon your spreads, on the basis that they are interesting and I want to know more about them so that I can render a decision.reachzero said:
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This doesn't represent the only spreads that I've paid attention to. I will make another one of these posts tomorrow.
I luckily don't have to respond to the percentage misconception anymore, Rhys already perfectly described that.
However, I do like to respond to the above. In particular the line I underlined. You make it sound like cramming EV's into def is a bad thing. But in reality, for this concept, it's best possible choice. I know many would love cookie cutter builds where they can just throw 252 EV's in HP and be done with defences and get better overall defence, but in the case of CAP10, specializing to one side of the spectrum to take hits their very well and hits on the other side far worse is preferred. This, because of the concept where you should deal with one pokemon efficiently but with others, you shouldn't.
To see which EV's would be most optimal placed for your own spread mentioned, assuming you only want to spend around half your EV's on defences and the other half on offenses, it's 228 HP EV's, 16 Def EV's and 8 SpDef EV's. Which will probably turn out to be a stat spread where most people will just put around 252 EV's in HP to maximize their defences.
I'll link back once again to X-Act's maximizing defences article and calculator which show exactly the above.
Article + Calculator
I already linked these two in my first post, and if you agree on the specializing defences part, I think you should really keep this calculator in mind for the defensive parts of your spread.
Seriously? Since this seems to be a response against high HP pokemon and you seem to want lower HP pokemon, which I just explained will just go a 252 HP route for optimal defences, you arguement makes no sense. If you want optimal defences with a high HP pokemon, you need to spend 504 points! Since most people want to strike back too, I don't think anyone would ever spend 252 in both def and 252 in sdef. It's more likely they just beef up either of the two, which leaves a gaping hole on the other defence.
That'd be great if I didn't have shit offense to use as well and terrible speed. You list Lucario which the current offenses can't OHKO without the Def drop from CC and I've explained Luke vs. my spread too many times. I also lack to power to OHKO Latias and Modest CS DM can 2HKO if I don't 252/252. It's also massive set up bait for anything that isn't x4 weak to my chosen attacks.
I don't see where the terrible weakness is here. Higher base HP compared to higher base Defenses still provide better overall damage resistance. And instead of just maxing HP to help with both sides, you need to invest into Def a huge amount in order for it to start showing. This causes centralization of Ev's so it's harder for CAP10 to invest into taking down other threats.
Never have and never will be. % or fraction based damage ruins Shuckle as much as they ruin Blissey. The only reason Blissey is done in by Toxic is because it doesn't have the means to retaliate with attacks and thus must stall or use some other method (and is constantly healing). Let's test if this would actually affect anything, testing Shuckle against my base 254 HP.
711 HP is KO'd in: 6 turns of Toxic, 11 turns of LO recoil, and 9 switches into SR.
243 HP is KO'd in: 6 turns of Toxic, 11 turns of LO recoil, and 9 switches into SR.
% or fraction based damage doesn't change anything. Admittantly Shuckle isn't the best example (both are taken to the extreme in this case), but base 100 HP will die just as fast as base 130 HP to any of the aformentioned examples.
To make sure we don't keep discussing this I'll just list the pros and cons. The moves that negatively affect high HP are Pain Split, Endeaver, and any Leech/Draining move (ex: Leech Seed, Drain Punch). Moves that positively affect high HP are any move with set damage (ex: Seismic Toss), any move with recoil (ex: Flare Blitz), Counter, Mirror Coat, and Substitute. The only moves with advantages against high HP pokes are moves that are made advantageous for something with low HP to hit something with high HP. This of course goes both ways with moves like Wood Hammer and Counter.
Having low defenses also means anything that boosts these stats will give a massive boost to damage resistance. Substitute was mentioned because of the technique Sub Passing.
One minor weakness compared to Leaf Storm and Grass Knot. I've already mentioned several ways for CAP10 to get around Leech Seed besides the obvious switching.
The high HP/low Def spreads gain some new advantages and lose some that lower base HP's have in the form of the listed moves. However it still stands that Lati0s and my own spread take far less damage when made purely defensive. Nothing else needs to be said about the matter.
You seriously underestimate the difference in walling capacity for a Pokemon with 254 HP and 44 defenses next to one of 125 HP and 85 defenses. CAP10 is intended to be a utility counter, not a wall, we can all agree on that. For this reason, we need to choose a stat distribution that both discourages using the Pokemon as a wall and encourages users to choose one defense over the other. Let us consider the following, because I believe in backing my claims with calculations and not fighting my fights on mere opinion:
I simply chose some functional examples to make my point. The best case defenses for a middle-ranged spread results in you being annihilated when you attempt to wall many different Pokemon at once with Deck or my stat distributions. You're solidly 2HKO'd by SpecsLatias after SR, OHKO'd by a +1 Mence EQ, and smashed apart by the two-attack bait combo of a Lucario. This result forces users to specifically design their defensive stats for their given target. Meanwhile, the high-HP one (Rhys') is rewarded by its distribution of stats and can actually survive way too many of these threats just on its walling capacity alone.
The fact alone that you can survive a Leaf Storm from Roserade is testament enough to its walling abilities. Note that these are many of the highest-powered assaults it'll be seeing. You don't want to see how badly something like SDScizor or Heatran gets walled by the 254 HP, 44 Def, 45 SpD stat distribution. (Hint: It doesn't even have a chance to 2HKO with Earth Power and does 75% at best with Explosion)
Anyways, you get arguably better at walling the higher your base HP stat is. As we want to discourage using CAP10 as a wall as opposed to as a utility counter, we want a lower base HP stat (by a lot) than 254 to achieve this.
Code:
X-Act's calculator confirms that for a 254 HP, 44 Def, 45 SpD stat
distribution, 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD is the optimal EV spread. It also
lists that for a 125 HP, 85 Def, 86 SpD stat distribution, 252 HP,
168 Def, 88 SpD is the optimal EV distribution. Let's look at how this
optimal distribution rewards functioning as a wall for both stat
distributions. I also did this with Deck's spread to show how between
his and my stat distributions, there is negligible difference in capacity
to wall.
[B]254 HP, 44 Def, 45 SpD[/B] (Rhys)
4/252/252 Careful Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Timid Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor : 53.5% - 62.9%
vs. 252 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar Earthquake : 43.4% - 51.1%
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Lucario Close Combat : 48.2% - 56.9%
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Lucario ExtremeSpeed : 21.5% - 25.4%
vs. 252 Timid Focus Sash Roserade Leaf Storm : 78.5% - 92.3%
vs. 232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Earthquake : 83.7% - 98.8%
[B]151 HP, 73 Def, 74 SpD[/B] (Deck)
104/220/184 Careful Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Timid Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor : 60.8% - 71.6%
vs. 252 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar Earthquake : 47.8% - 56.3%
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Lucario Close Combat : 52.7% - 62.3%
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Lucario ExtremeSpeed : 23.7% - 27.9%
vs. 252 Timid Focus Sash Roserade Leaf Storm : 88.7% - 104.9%
vs. 232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Earthquake : 91.7% - 107.9%
[B]125 HP, 85 Def, 86 SpD[/B] (Dusk)
252/168/88 Careful Leftovers Pokemon
vs. 252 Timid Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor : 62.8% - 74%
vs. 252 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar Earthquake : 47.1% - 55.5%
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Lucario Close Combat : 52.2% - 61.7%
vs. 252 Adamant Life Orb Lucario ExtremeSpeed : 23.1% - 27.3%
vs. 252 Timid Focus Sash Roserade Leaf Storm : 91.6% - 108.4%
vs. 232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Earthquake : 89.9% - 106.2%The fact alone that you can survive a Leaf Storm from Roserade is testament enough to its walling abilities. Note that these are many of the highest-powered assaults it'll be seeing. You don't want to see how badly something like SDScizor or Heatran gets walled by the 254 HP, 44 Def, 45 SpD stat distribution. (Hint: It doesn't even have a chance to 2HKO with Earth Power and does 75% at best with Explosion)
Anyways, you get arguably better at walling the higher your base HP stat is. As we want to discourage using CAP10 as a wall as opposed to as a utility counter, we want a lower base HP stat (by a lot) than 254 to achieve this.
For the record, I also did this little test with Deck's spread too, as you'll see above. Mine takes physical hits marginally better (~1-3%), while his takes special hits better (~1-3%). Ultimately the difference is negligible between Deck's spread and mine in this regard, as you can see that neither promote being used as a wall. The difference really comes in arguments based on Leech Seed, Pain Split, Seismic Toss, etc.
Of course a 254 HP stat is rediculous, and I don't think those will ever pass.
However, what my real issue is with how you try to make your point, is that in both posts, you're assuming all EV's to be placed defensively. To me, that seems like a really illogical decision. We are giving CAP10 pretty low offenses, so I'm pretty sure we'll be spending at least 252 EV's in some offense stat/speed.
Now if you assume only 252 (or 256) points to be spend over the 3 defensive stats, the results are a lot different. A lower HP/higher def pokemon can do a lot more on overall defence with just 252 points by just putting all of it in HP.
A higher HP/lower def pokemon has no use for the EV's in HP since it barely does anything. So it's either going to 128/128... which is highly unlikely, since that doesn't do very much. Unless you want to counter a mix sweeper. Or the player is going to have to choose. Hmm, I want to counter physical luke, let's put 252 in def. That means that the sdef side is largely unprotected.
Edit: And when only applying 256 EV's to your spread, RD, to maximize it's defences, it's EV spread is 192 HP, 56 Def, 8 SDef. That still a serious investment in HP that will only mean your are raising it's overall tankiness, and thus not specializing it to suit the target.
However, on DK's spread, it will never tell me to put EV's into HP when assuming 256 EV's to spend, unless you put the slider to 100% def or sdef, which means 4 HP since you have nowhere else to put those 4.
So even though your two spreads seem to net the same results with 510 EV's spent on defences, there is major difference in EV spending when only considering ~256 EV's to spend on defences. Your spread actually gives more overall tankiness while DK's spread is more specialized to suit a specific target and also has a larger weakness on the other defensive stat.
However, what my real issue is with how you try to make your point, is that in both posts, you're assuming all EV's to be placed defensively. To me, that seems like a really illogical decision. We are giving CAP10 pretty low offenses, so I'm pretty sure we'll be spending at least 252 EV's in some offense stat/speed.
Now if you assume only 252 (or 256) points to be spend over the 3 defensive stats, the results are a lot different. A lower HP/higher def pokemon can do a lot more on overall defence with just 252 points by just putting all of it in HP.
A higher HP/lower def pokemon has no use for the EV's in HP since it barely does anything. So it's either going to 128/128... which is highly unlikely, since that doesn't do very much. Unless you want to counter a mix sweeper. Or the player is going to have to choose. Hmm, I want to counter physical luke, let's put 252 in def. That means that the sdef side is largely unprotected.
Edit: And when only applying 256 EV's to your spread, RD, to maximize it's defences, it's EV spread is 192 HP, 56 Def, 8 SDef. That still a serious investment in HP that will only mean your are raising it's overall tankiness, and thus not specializing it to suit the target.
However, on DK's spread, it will never tell me to put EV's into HP when assuming 256 EV's to spend, unless you put the slider to 100% def or sdef, which means 4 HP since you have nowhere else to put those 4.
So even though your two spreads seem to net the same results with 510 EV's spent on defences, there is major difference in EV spending when only considering ~256 EV's to spend on defences. Your spread actually gives more overall tankiness while DK's spread is more specialized to suit a specific target and also has a larger weakness on the other defensive stat.
Maybe you failed to realize that all three of the spreads I am comparing have virtually the same offensive stats - therefore the necessary investment between them all for the OHKOs and such are roughly the same. My argument was purely defensive - "Why you don't/do want to use this CAP as a wall." You're much more able to do it with higher base HP stats than middle-range ones.Yllnath said:
If you want to factor in offensive calculations to the mix, it becomes a much greater mess to deal with - and impossible to compare quantitatively as each threat requires different investment. If we're going to compare anything about these sets to decide which is superior for the concept in what ways, a level of uniformity is crucial.
Anyways, I have made my point clear as I can. Accept it if you will, but I refuse to clutter this thread with posts.
I've edited in a multitude of Offensive Calculations and slightly modified my spread. Still working on defensive calculations, but so far in comparison to Deck's spread it hits much harder, moreso on the special side and is more bulky on the special side. Though to what extent, I still need to figure out. Even with no EVs, in comparison to his EV'd calculations, my CAP10 spread is only taking hits on the physical side slightly worse (<10%).
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2532433&postcount=32
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2532433&postcount=32
Yes, because apparantly, it's only possible to compare spreads with only one standard, one that seems to suit your stat spread more.. It's also possible to actually be realistic, realize that it's very likely you will not have 510 EV's left to spend in defences but actually a number around 256 is more likely, and then base your so called level of uniformity on that amount of EV's to spend and compare the spreads.
I know you'd rather compare the defensive side of all the stat spread assuming 510 EV's since indeed, I fully get your point, high HP builds get more bang for buck that way and become more all round tanks. However, the case is completely turned around with lower EV investments where suddenly, your spread becomes a more general tank.
So yes, I accept your point about a possible scenario where spending all 510 EVs into defences might make a high HP spread more of a tank. But no, I don't accept your point that to compare all spread equally, you somehow have to assume 510 defensive EV's. You're still comparing equally if you assume 256 EV's too. And I think that's a far more realistic comparison to make as well.
And now I made my point as well, no need to further clutter up the thread, assuming you don't throw in new arguments which I feel require rebuttal.
I know you'd rather compare the defensive side of all the stat spread assuming 510 EV's since indeed, I fully get your point, high HP builds get more bang for buck that way and become more all round tanks. However, the case is completely turned around with lower EV investments where suddenly, your spread becomes a more general tank.
So yes, I accept your point about a possible scenario where spending all 510 EVs into defences might make a high HP spread more of a tank. But no, I don't accept your point that to compare all spread equally, you somehow have to assume 510 defensive EV's. You're still comparing equally if you assume 256 EV's too. And I think that's a far more realistic comparison to make as well.
And now I made my point as well, no need to further clutter up the thread, assuming you don't throw in new arguments which I feel require rebuttal.
One thing you are forgetting Rising Dusk is that the spreads being presented also have considerable speed, and I believe that most people would rather invest in the speed stat rather than the secondary defending stat unless they wanted to wall something that was faster or something mixed. However, investing in speed is generally more attractive, especially if you want to have a chance against Lucario or Salamence.
To beat Adamant Lucario, here are the EVs and natures you need with various speed stats proposed:
For Adamant Lucario: 279 Speed
80: 236 EVs Positive Nature
90: 156 EVs Positive Nature
102: 160 EVs Neutral Nature or 60 EVs Positive Nature
103: 152 EVs Neutral Nature or 52 EVs Positive Nature
105: 136 EVs Neutral Nature or 36 EVs Positive Nature
110: 96 EVs Neutral Nature or 0 EVs Positive Nature
115: 56 EVs Neutral Nature or 0 EVs Positive Nature
120: 16 EVs Neutral Nature or 0 EVs Positive Nature
If you look at those spreads you can see that you will need a fairly good amount of EVs to beat Adamant Lucario, let alone Jolly Lucario, Neutral Speed Salamence, or Positive Speed Salamence.
For Jolly Lucario: 306 Speed
80 and 90 base obviously can't be EVd to always outspeed
102: 160 EVs Positive Nature
103: 152 EVs Positive Nature
105: 244 EVs Neutral Nature or 136 EVs Positive Nature
110: 204 EVs Neutral Nature or 96 EVs Positive Nature
115: 168 EVs Neutral Nature or 56 EVs Positive Nature
120: 128 EVs Neutral Nature or 16 EVs Positive Nature
For Neutral Salamence: 299 Speed
102: 240 EVs Neutral Nature or 132 EVs Positive Nature
103: 232 EVs Neutral Nature or 124 EVs Positive Nature
105: 212 EVs Neutral Nature or 108 EVs Positive Nature
110: 172 EVs Neutral Nature or 68 EVs Positive Nature
115: 132 EVs Neutral Nature or 28 EVs Positive Nature
120: 92 EVs Neutral Nature or 0 EVs Positive Nature
For Positive Salamence: 328
102: 240 EVs Positive Nature
103: 232 EVs Positive Nature
105: 216 EVs Positive Nature
110: 176 EVs Positive Nature
115: 252 EVs Neutral Nature or 136 EVs Positive Nature
120: 212 EVs Neutral Nature or 96 EVs Positive Nature
Clearly it will take quite a bit of speed investments to hit these, so expect CAP 10 to invest heavily more often than not. I think it is fair to say that it will attempt to beat Lucario at the very least simply because it takes only a little more investment than it takes to beat Heatran, and you want to be faster than both of these guys.
To beat Adamant Lucario, here are the EVs and natures you need with various speed stats proposed:
For Adamant Lucario: 279 Speed
80: 236 EVs Positive Nature
90: 156 EVs Positive Nature
102: 160 EVs Neutral Nature or 60 EVs Positive Nature
103: 152 EVs Neutral Nature or 52 EVs Positive Nature
105: 136 EVs Neutral Nature or 36 EVs Positive Nature
110: 96 EVs Neutral Nature or 0 EVs Positive Nature
115: 56 EVs Neutral Nature or 0 EVs Positive Nature
120: 16 EVs Neutral Nature or 0 EVs Positive Nature
If you look at those spreads you can see that you will need a fairly good amount of EVs to beat Adamant Lucario, let alone Jolly Lucario, Neutral Speed Salamence, or Positive Speed Salamence.
For Jolly Lucario: 306 Speed
80 and 90 base obviously can't be EVd to always outspeed
102: 160 EVs Positive Nature
103: 152 EVs Positive Nature
105: 244 EVs Neutral Nature or 136 EVs Positive Nature
110: 204 EVs Neutral Nature or 96 EVs Positive Nature
115: 168 EVs Neutral Nature or 56 EVs Positive Nature
120: 128 EVs Neutral Nature or 16 EVs Positive Nature
For Neutral Salamence: 299 Speed
102: 240 EVs Neutral Nature or 132 EVs Positive Nature
103: 232 EVs Neutral Nature or 124 EVs Positive Nature
105: 212 EVs Neutral Nature or 108 EVs Positive Nature
110: 172 EVs Neutral Nature or 68 EVs Positive Nature
115: 132 EVs Neutral Nature or 28 EVs Positive Nature
120: 92 EVs Neutral Nature or 0 EVs Positive Nature
For Positive Salamence: 328
102: 240 EVs Positive Nature
103: 232 EVs Positive Nature
105: 216 EVs Positive Nature
110: 176 EVs Positive Nature
115: 252 EVs Neutral Nature or 136 EVs Positive Nature
120: 212 EVs Neutral Nature or 96 EVs Positive Nature
Clearly it will take quite a bit of speed investments to hit these, so expect CAP 10 to invest heavily more often than not. I think it is fair to say that it will attempt to beat Lucario at the very least simply because it takes only a little more investment than it takes to beat Heatran, and you want to be faster than both of these guys.
I'm sorry for not coming out with this sooner, but I'd just like to address some of the concerns that have been lurking about me for a while now; or rather, expunge them into the midst. What is troubling me at the moment is that, although almost all of the spreads I've seen are verging on the very limits of the 'Very Good' area defensively - this area simply does not seem to be high enough to take some of the more powerful attacks from the nastier sweepers in the tier.
I'll use a spread similar to (NOT the same as) Deck Knight's as an example.
So CAP10, when at maximum defensive investment to take a single move, can thus hard counter almost any set from the following (OU) Pokemon:
Aerodactyl
Empoleon
Gengar
Jirachi
Jolteon
Rotom-A
Weavile
Starmie
Suicune
Tentacruel
And soft counters the following (OU):
Azelf
Electivire
Heatran
Kingdra
Latias
Magnezone
Scizor
Snorlax
Togekiss
Zapdos
Quite a lot of this being able to actually switch in on a Pokemon has a lot of sideroads and quirks to it, however. For quite a lot of these soft-countered Pokemon, CAP10 has to be at absolutely or close to full health, no Stealth Rock, Spikes, etc. - and in some cases to come in on the correct move, which is always a difficulty. What seems to stand out for me is that - apart from the more defensive Pokemon such as Blissey and Forretress (who without significant offensive stats and investment you aren't really threatening regardless, and are more likely to carry Toxic or similar weapons) or support-orientated Pokemon such as Jolteon and Ninjask, CAP10 can't really take that many hits from the significant offensive Pokemon in the tier. Which is a real shame, as it means that CAP10 can't really 'counter' - in the sense of being able to present an absolute dead stop to that particular Pokemon - at all.
But I'll be fair, and look to the abilities for guidance. Levitate extends the counter list to many more Pokemon, including hard-countering Gyarados, Donphan etc, but does not help much with many of the more hard-hitting Pokemon at the top of the tier such as Salamence and Lucario. With these more powerful threats, all they really need is one boost and Stealth Rock support, plus the tiniest amount of residual damage, to ensure an OHKO. Trace removes Salamence and Gyarados as threats to a partial extent - but it doesn't help with much else, and both are still capable of crippling. But then again, neither of these abilities are guaranteed, so banking on them at this stage seems a foolish procedure.
So if we can't stop a Pokemon by taking its assaults, what then? I have the most horrible feeling that what the community really wants from CAP10 is to give it very high offensive ability, with the collective mindset of 'the best defence is attack'. Awkward, considering that this may well translate into yet another Tyranitar/Flygon/whatever, especially if great type coverage is pushed for. Admittedly this is a good way of ensuring that it cannot take on more than a select group of Pokemon at a time, but this is not 'defensive versatility' - this is offensive versatility given a nice shiny new label and branding, and cannot really distinguish itself from what we already have made, tested, and know about the metagame.
I don't want to dwell on this any longer, but still, food for thought.
Still, within these parameters is required a usable Stat Spread. Although my first draft turned out almost identical to Deck Knight's, I feel that after editing it to reflect different circumstances it is sufficiently unique to warrant its own submission:
Stats: 200 / 88 / 53 / 90 / 54 / 85
Physical Sweepiness: 130 Rank 5 (Good)
Special Sweepiness: 136 Rank 5 (Good)
Physical Tankiness: 165 Rank 6 (Very Good)
Special Tankiness: 165 Rank 6 (Very Good)
BST: 570
Reasoning to follow:
Defensive: A high HP stat is, I feel, an absolute necessity. This is not simply because of practical reasons (as it is more economical, with regards to BST, for high HP and low defensive stats) but also due to the way that CAP10 will be played. In the concept assessment thread, I addressed this problem to a certain extent, by grouping the certain threats in the OU metagame and then grouping them, with the likely EV combinations necessary to act as a reliable check to each group. Thusly, the user of CAP10 has to choose the combination of Defence, Speed etc. that most benefits it for the foes it is likely to be called upon to defeat. Hence, Heracross requires a lot of Speed, plus Defence, in order to act as a decisive counter - I may not like the fact that I actually have to run Speed in order to make it a counter, but with what's been given, this cannot be helped.
Offensive: More offence and slightly lower Speed than most people here - this is more a personal thing than what is competitively more viable, as I am adamant that this Pokemon should not turn out a bulky sweeper of any description, which seems to be a real danger given the high defensive stats, almost guaranteed large movepool, and excellent dual STABs. I believe that lowering Speed is the best way to do this, however I would much rather they were both lower, but I can't really do that without compromising the legal barriers.
I'm going to update with further reasoning later, as well as *possibly* calcs.
I'll use a spread similar to (NOT the same as) Deck Knight's as an example.
Code:
Assuming 150/80/70/80/70/90
Defender has 252/252 EVs in defensive stat
Attacker has 252 EVs and no boosts unless otherwise stated
Aerodactyl
Jolly Unboosted Earthquake: 33.7% - 40.1%
Alakazam
Timid Choice Specs Psychic: 40.5% - 47.8%
Azelf
Timid +2 Life Orb Psychic: 66.3% - 78.2%
Breloom
Adamant Unboosted Seed Bomb: 50.4% - 59.5%
Adamant +2 Life Orb Seed Bomb: 129.8% - 152.8%
Celebi
0 SpA Bold Unboosted Leaf Storm: 52.4% - 61.9%
Modest Choice Specs Leaf Storm: 108.3% - 127.8%
Donphan
Adamant Unboosted Earthquake: 59.5% - 70.2%
Adamant Choice Band Earthquake: 88.5% - 104.8%
Dragonite
Rash Life Orb Draco Meteor: 51.8% - 60.9%
Adamant +1 Life Orb Earthquake: 82.9% - 98%
Adamant +1 Life Orb Outrage: 74.6% - 88.1%
Dugtrio
Jolly Life Orb Earthquake: 80.2% - 94.4%
Adamant Choice Band Earthquake: 101.2% - 119.4%
Electivire
Mild Life Orb Thunderbolt: 31% - 36.5%
Adamant Life Orb Earthquake: 52.4% - 61.9%
Empoleon
Modest +1 Torrent Hydro Pump: 52.4% - 61.9%
Flygon
Jolly Choice Scarf Earthquake: 47.6% - 56.3%
Adamant Choice Band Earthquake: 77.8% - 92.1%
Gengar
Timid Life Orb Shadow Ball: 29.8% - 35.1%
Modest Life Orb Energy Ball: 42.9% - 50.8%
Gliscor
0 Atk Impish Unboosted Earthquake: 30.2% - 35.7%
Jolly +2 Life Orb Earthquake: 102.8% - 121.4%
Gyarados
Adamant +1 Life Orb Earthquake: 79% - 93.3%
Heatran
Timid Life Orb Earth Power: 48.4% - 57.1%
Heracross
Adamant Unboosted Close Combat: 36.5% - 43.1%
Adamant Choice Band Close Combat: 54.8% - 64.5%
Adamant +2 Guts Close Combat: 109.1% - 128.6%
Hippowdon
0 Atk Impish Unboosted Earthquake: 41.7% - 49.2%
Adamant Unboosted Earthquake: 56.3% - 66.7%
Infernape
Naïve +2 Life Orb Grass Knot (80 Power): 73.8% - 86.9%
Jolly +2 Life Orb Close Combat: 75.8% - 89.5%
Jirachi
Timid Unboosted Grass Knot (80 Power): 27.8% - 32.9%
Jolteon
Timid Choice Specs Thunderbolt: 35.7% - 42.1%
Kingdra
Adamant +1 Outrage: 49.6% - 58.5%
Timid Choice Specs Draco Meteor: 47.6% - 56.2%
Latias
Timid Choice Specs Draco Meteor: 52.6% - 62.1%
Lucario
Adamant +2 Life Orb Close Combat: 95.2% - 112.1%
Machamp
Adamant Unboosted DynamicPunch: 34.5% - 40.7%
Adamant Choice Band Earthquake: 68.7% - 81%
Magnezone
Modest Unboosted Thunderbolt: 29.8% - 34.9%
Modest Choice Specs Thunderbolt: 44% - 52.4%
Mamoswine
Jolly Choice Band Earthquake: 94% - 110.7%
Metagross
Adamant Choice Band Earthquake: 69.8% - 82.5%
Porygon-Z
Timid +2 Life Orb Tri Attack: 81% - 95.2%
Modest Choice Specs Hyper Beam: 95.6% - 112.7%
Rhyperior
Adamant Unboosted Earthquake: 71.8% - 84.9%
Adamant Choice Band Earthquake: 108.3% - 127.8%
Rotom-A
0 SpA Bold Unboosted Thunderbolt: 18.3% - 21.8%
Modest Choice Specs Thunderbolt: 38.1% - 44.8%
Salamence
Naïve +1 Life Orb Earthquake: 82.5% - 97.2%
Naïve +1 Life Orb Outrage: 74% - 87.1%
Rash Life Orb Draco Meteor: 50% - 58.9%
Scizor
Adamant Choice Band U-turn: 46.4% - 54.8%
Adamant +2 Technician Life Orb Bug Bite: 80.4% - 94.6%
Snorlax
Adamant Choice Band Return: 46.6% - 55%
Starmie
Timid Choice Specs Psychic: 31.7% - 37.5%
Swampert
Relaxed Unboosted Earthquake: 56% - 65.9%
Togekiss
Modest +2 Tri Attack: 43.7% - 51.4%
Tyranitar
Jolly Unboosted Stone Edge: 31.7% - 37.7%
Adamant Choice Band Earthquake: 63.9% - 75.4%
Weavile
Jolly +2 Night Slash: 49% - 57.9%
Zapdos
Timid Life Orb Thunderbolt: 36.9% - 44%So CAP10, when at maximum defensive investment to take a single move, can thus hard counter almost any set from the following (OU) Pokemon:
Aerodactyl
Empoleon
Gengar
Jirachi
Jolteon
Rotom-A
Weavile
Starmie
Suicune
Tentacruel
And soft counters the following (OU):
Azelf
Electivire
Heatran
Kingdra
Latias
Magnezone
Scizor
Snorlax
Togekiss
Zapdos
Quite a lot of this being able to actually switch in on a Pokemon has a lot of sideroads and quirks to it, however. For quite a lot of these soft-countered Pokemon, CAP10 has to be at absolutely or close to full health, no Stealth Rock, Spikes, etc. - and in some cases to come in on the correct move, which is always a difficulty. What seems to stand out for me is that - apart from the more defensive Pokemon such as Blissey and Forretress (who without significant offensive stats and investment you aren't really threatening regardless, and are more likely to carry Toxic or similar weapons) or support-orientated Pokemon such as Jolteon and Ninjask, CAP10 can't really take that many hits from the significant offensive Pokemon in the tier. Which is a real shame, as it means that CAP10 can't really 'counter' - in the sense of being able to present an absolute dead stop to that particular Pokemon - at all.
But I'll be fair, and look to the abilities for guidance. Levitate extends the counter list to many more Pokemon, including hard-countering Gyarados, Donphan etc, but does not help much with many of the more hard-hitting Pokemon at the top of the tier such as Salamence and Lucario. With these more powerful threats, all they really need is one boost and Stealth Rock support, plus the tiniest amount of residual damage, to ensure an OHKO. Trace removes Salamence and Gyarados as threats to a partial extent - but it doesn't help with much else, and both are still capable of crippling. But then again, neither of these abilities are guaranteed, so banking on them at this stage seems a foolish procedure.
So if we can't stop a Pokemon by taking its assaults, what then? I have the most horrible feeling that what the community really wants from CAP10 is to give it very high offensive ability, with the collective mindset of 'the best defence is attack'. Awkward, considering that this may well translate into yet another Tyranitar/Flygon/whatever, especially if great type coverage is pushed for. Admittedly this is a good way of ensuring that it cannot take on more than a select group of Pokemon at a time, but this is not 'defensive versatility' - this is offensive versatility given a nice shiny new label and branding, and cannot really distinguish itself from what we already have made, tested, and know about the metagame.
I don't want to dwell on this any longer, but still, food for thought.
Still, within these parameters is required a usable Stat Spread. Although my first draft turned out almost identical to Deck Knight's, I feel that after editing it to reflect different circumstances it is sufficiently unique to warrant its own submission:
Stats: 200 / 88 / 53 / 90 / 54 / 85
Physical Sweepiness: 130 Rank 5 (Good)
Special Sweepiness: 136 Rank 5 (Good)
Physical Tankiness: 165 Rank 6 (Very Good)
Special Tankiness: 165 Rank 6 (Very Good)
BST: 570
Reasoning to follow:
Defensive: A high HP stat is, I feel, an absolute necessity. This is not simply because of practical reasons (as it is more economical, with regards to BST, for high HP and low defensive stats) but also due to the way that CAP10 will be played. In the concept assessment thread, I addressed this problem to a certain extent, by grouping the certain threats in the OU metagame and then grouping them, with the likely EV combinations necessary to act as a reliable check to each group. Thusly, the user of CAP10 has to choose the combination of Defence, Speed etc. that most benefits it for the foes it is likely to be called upon to defeat. Hence, Heracross requires a lot of Speed, plus Defence, in order to act as a decisive counter - I may not like the fact that I actually have to run Speed in order to make it a counter, but with what's been given, this cannot be helped.
Offensive: More offence and slightly lower Speed than most people here - this is more a personal thing than what is competitively more viable, as I am adamant that this Pokemon should not turn out a bulky sweeper of any description, which seems to be a real danger given the high defensive stats, almost guaranteed large movepool, and excellent dual STABs. I believe that lowering Speed is the best way to do this, however I would much rather they were both lower, but I can't really do that without compromising the legal barriers.
I'm going to update with further reasoning later, as well as *possibly* calcs.
Okay I've finalized my submission that no one knows about because it's way back on page 1, so I'll alert the community regarding its awesomeness. It's a full revamp, so enjoy all the blocks of text and endless calcs!
How much time left before the stat poll begins? Don't want to slap a "Done" stamp on my stat spread if they're some time left to add/revise something.
At the time of that post it was Thunderbolt doing only 31.7% - 37.5% to BulkyDos, but then I realized I was reading it wrong. It was talking about BulkyNite not BulkyDos. Your calculations are actually correct, and I'm sorry for saying such false things.
This thread has been open long enough. I unfortunately didn't find enough time to make another in-depth post today, with school and homework among other issues. However, I feel that my posts about the similarity of spreads combined with what I said in my previous analytical post reflect my overall decision when it came to picking my slate.
Closed, and the poll will be open soon.
Closed, and the poll will be open soon.
- Status