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CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 2 - Main Typing Poll
- Thread starter Fuzznip
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And Electric type doesn't?
I feel like off all of togekiss' weaknesses, one of the most important ones to account for fighting, because toge can ignore the rest of them by roosting, but fighting deals neutral or super effective damage... I also think that either steel or fighting is very important for the SR resistance... Finally, I think that grass could be a very beneficial type because it would take care of toge's problem with grounded pokemon that can't be twaved... in general I didn't like any of these as the primary type... but I voted fighting
After having read through the previous points and having spoken to Rising_Dusk and others on #cap, I realize that Fighting is definitely a bad idea. I cannot change my vote, but I agree that both Electric and Ground have way more going for them than Fighting. When I initially supported Fighting, I was giving Blissey a little too much importance over Rotom-A and Zapdos, which was where I went wrong.
I am still somewhat uncomfortable regarding Ground's inability to hit Rotom-A and Zapdos with STAB and its Ice weakness (and, more importantly, Starmie weakness), but there are many ways to fix that at a later stage. As of now, I completely switch sides and also implore you to vote either Ground or Electric, not Fighting!
I am still somewhat uncomfortable regarding Ground's inability to hit Rotom-A and Zapdos with STAB and its Ice weakness (and, more importantly, Starmie weakness), but there are many ways to fix that at a later stage. As of now, I completely switch sides and also implore you to vote either Ground or Electric, not Fighting!
Jolteon has Volt Absorb, which stops any STAB attacks from an Electric CAP 11. STAB EQ on the other hand would destroy said Jolteon. And, once they see that Ground CAP 11, they switch out to something that resists EQ, not predicting the switch into Togekiss who then uses Air Slash or Aura Sphere on the Pokemon that switches in from Togekiss for, hopefully, neutral damage.
For the last time, Togekiss is not weak to Fighting at all. It just can't switch into any of OU's Fighters directly because they're either too fast, too strong, or have a way to get around it. It's going to be important for CAP 11 not to be weak to Fighting, or else the core will be too easy to dismantle.
^ I agree with this user. ^ Fighting-type's traits benefit Togekiss more specifically than Ground does, as it lacks a complete immunity to Electric-type attacks Gyarados and the like crave.
I went for electric, but that would still have vast problems with Tyranitar, Rotom etc unless we somehow found a way to cure them. Does nothing for the most important rock weakness.
Ground I don't like because of the basic bulky water situation. Togekiss can beat things like Swampert, but Suicune can often take it down. Guess its not bad really>
Fighting I think is pretty decent, but people need to remember Zapdos and Rotom. If it ends up that way we need the CAP to really beat these two.
Ground I don't like because of the basic bulky water situation. Togekiss can beat things like Swampert, but Suicune can often take it down. Guess its not bad really>
Fighting I think is pretty decent, but people need to remember Zapdos and Rotom. If it ends up that way we need the CAP to really beat these two.
We don't have to use STAB to take out Electric types. Ground may stop Electric in its tracks, but Jolteon can't hit an Electric type hard either with only Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball at its disposal. Basing on our secondary typing, an Electric CAP is just as capable of combating Jolteon as a Ground type is.
I still don't understand at all why it's so bad that other Flying types might be able to benefit from a Ground-type CAP 11. Is Togekiss really so inferior to the other Flying types that we can't make an optimal partner tailored to it? Is the situation such that we have to go against the very concept of Perfect Mate to convince people to pair Togekiss with CAP 11? If so, then why are we bothering with it at all?
It's interesting how Fighting overtook Ground here considering all the good arguments for Ground over it from the concept's point of view (including a couple of high-profile users who condemned Fighting entirely).
It's interesting how Fighting overtook Ground here considering all the good arguments for Ground over it from the concept's point of view (including a couple of high-profile users who condemned Fighting entirely).
Yet Electric is only effective against the semi-rare Flying and Waters barring Swampert and Ground is effective in forcing Steels, Rocks and Electrics to switch while also being immune to TWave on the switch-in. Try to imagine this:Togekiss is out. Opponent sends out Jolteon. You send out CAP 11 to take the TBolt. Ground CAP 11 takes no damage. Jolteon can either overpredict and stay and you can STAB EQ or Jolteon can switch into something effective against CAP 11 and you switch to Togekiss. The sent out Poke switches out into Jolteon to take the expected Air Slash and takes a Aura Sphere to the face. You then switch back into CAP 11 if Jolteon doesn't die and take another TBolt or stay in predicting the switch.
Shouldn't we think about how there should be SOME counters? Getting the CAP to truly be "perfect" when paired with togekiss is asking for too much, we want a good combo but not and extremely perfect typing.
I voted for Ground because of the type synergy it has with Togekiss. Ice is it's main flaw, but ice usually isn't a problem. Ground is usually a sponge to fighting moves which usually threaten kiss because of raw power. But ground is defensive, which should scare off all the fighting powerhouses out there.
Electric could also be a good choice, doing almost the same thing as ground, but most electrics aren't very physically defensive. Steel is just not really gonna work with kiss if you think about it, it's a good typing but what else?
Fighting is the only typing I don't understand at all. It may be able to muscle through Blissey and what not but as I said earlier, there must be SOME flaw to the two pokes. Also, it just wouldn't do much other than do physical damage.
I voted for Ground because of the type synergy it has with Togekiss. Ice is it's main flaw, but ice usually isn't a problem. Ground is usually a sponge to fighting moves which usually threaten kiss because of raw power. But ground is defensive, which should scare off all the fighting powerhouses out there.
Electric could also be a good choice, doing almost the same thing as ground, but most electrics aren't very physically defensive. Steel is just not really gonna work with kiss if you think about it, it's a good typing but what else?
Fighting is the only typing I don't understand at all. It may be able to muscle through Blissey and what not but as I said earlier, there must be SOME flaw to the two pokes. Also, it just wouldn't do much other than do physical damage.
I picked Fighting. The rock resist is incredibly useful against Stealth Rock and the STAB is useful against the Rock and Ice types that Togekiss isn't a fan of. The offensive combo of Fighting and Flying as well as defensive is pleasing and hopefully the secondary type, which I hope to be either electric or rock, will only compliment the offensive and defense capabilities of the duo.
Also within the inherent move pool of fighting types are many useful utility moves that can be taken advantage of such as Brick Break to cancel out screens and Low Kick to take down walls, especially Blissey. Not to mention, while bleak, the special capabilities of Fighting-types is impressive with Focus Blast for pure damage and Vacuum Wave for priority are great options that go greatly with Togekiss's NP while the final result of CAP 11 can definately carry boosts of it's own to expand the utility and multiple other options.
On the other hand, Electric doesn't stand by itself quite as well for a primary type as the best secondary I could think of for it would, in the end, be fighting. Ground is plain unattractive to me seeing as Ice-type moves were already used frequently to counter Dragons and Weavile can trap with Pursuit or hit hard with stab Ice Punch or Ice Shard while Tyranittar can carry Aqua Tail for CAP11 and Stone Edge for Togekiss while trapping as well. Making CAP 11 a Steel-type wouldn't only be saying "Herp-derp! You can make anything synergize with Steel-type", but it would provide a type with low Togekiss synergy that would rely on a secondary type INSTEAD of the secondary relying on the primary type. The main type has to be a type that is needed no matter what, and a type that resists Rock while not being weak to fighting or any other Togekiss weakness is absolutely essential. The rest of what the typing needs can be found in the secondary type.
/end noobish rant
Also within the inherent move pool of fighting types are many useful utility moves that can be taken advantage of such as Brick Break to cancel out screens and Low Kick to take down walls, especially Blissey. Not to mention, while bleak, the special capabilities of Fighting-types is impressive with Focus Blast for pure damage and Vacuum Wave for priority are great options that go greatly with Togekiss's NP while the final result of CAP 11 can definately carry boosts of it's own to expand the utility and multiple other options.
On the other hand, Electric doesn't stand by itself quite as well for a primary type as the best secondary I could think of for it would, in the end, be fighting. Ground is plain unattractive to me seeing as Ice-type moves were already used frequently to counter Dragons and Weavile can trap with Pursuit or hit hard with stab Ice Punch or Ice Shard while Tyranittar can carry Aqua Tail for CAP11 and Stone Edge for Togekiss while trapping as well. Making CAP 11 a Steel-type wouldn't only be saying "Herp-derp! You can make anything synergize with Steel-type", but it would provide a type with low Togekiss synergy that would rely on a secondary type INSTEAD of the secondary relying on the primary type. The main type has to be a type that is needed no matter what, and a type that resists Rock while not being weak to fighting or any other Togekiss weakness is absolutely essential. The rest of what the typing needs can be found in the secondary type.
/end noobish rant
Ground also resists Rock and hits it for SE damage. As for hitting Ices, when was the last time you went up against an actual Ice type in OU? The point about Fighting/Flying everyone's saying might be good, except, oh wait, most Togekiss carry Aura Sphere!
The fact is that Togekiss doesn't really mind Ice moves. While yes, Weavile can kill it, Weavile isn't exactly common enough to be a major problem. And anyway, if you switch a Fighter in on an Ice Punch it'll still take quite a bit. And EVEN if Weavile becomes more common due to this CAP, then that's what the rest of the team is for. We aren't trying to counter every little single thing. Oh, and about Tyranitar, Scarftar deals around 1/3 HP with Aqua Tail to Kiss, and Togekiss scares most Tars with Aura Sphere. If it isn't Scarftar, then it's not going to outspeed an Aura Sphere either. If the CAP is Ground, it can also threaten Tyranitar with EQuake(required move), and can switch in on it's Stone Edges.
But now, Togekiss doesn't have to carry Aura Sphere and can instead use another coverage move.
What other coverage move would 'kiss use that's better than 90 BP that never misses?
The whole point of Aura Sphere/Air Slash is that it enables kiss to hit basically anything not named Rotom for at least neutral damage. If you have to spend a turn switching to use a Fighting move, then not only does Togekiss have to take another switch in into what's likely SR, but it you also give the opponent time to switch to a resist/attack and severely weaken your Fighting type. Even worse, any NP boost you may of gained from the thing is basically never usable by Togekiss again unless they both have Baton Pass, and even then you're still setting yourself up for extra damage.
Also, don't say Flamethrower, it has one use and one use only.
I suppose you could use Shadow Ball.
Ever hear of the 4 slot syndrome? Having that Aura Sphere slot freed up thanks to a fighting type partner is a huge benefit to Togekiss. As for ice types in OU, last time I saw them was a long time ago, but the better a ground type CAP11 does the more likely Ice type moves which a myriad of pokemon have and Ice type pokemon will appear. I'd rather go with the option that won't make it a problem in the long run.
Also, the main problem people have with the Fighting type is Rotom-A, but an ability exists in Pokemon called Scrappy which takes care of that, though with a move like sucker punch on CAP11 to use against offensive varients and with the slot previously used for Aura Sphere freed up Togekiss can use Shadow Ball for the resttalk variety which won't outspeed.
A fighting type will be far from "trying to counter every little thing". Pokemon like Jirachi and Zapdos still cause problems for a fighting CAP11 and Togekiss, but a Ground CAP would also have it's short comings. I just feel that when we get to the later stages of creating this pokemon that Fighting as a primary type will give us alot more open possibilities seeing as it has diversity while the ground type is a one trick pony, EQ or EP.
I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but I'll stick by my opinion until the results and the votes prove me wrong.
I have to say I'm disappointed in the choices laid out here, as well as the lack of Rock. But the typing slate is out of my hands here.
I prefer Fighting and Electric as the lesser evil here. They doesn't get as much SE STAB on Toge counters as Rock, my preferred choice, but they have better defensive typing IMO.
I cannot accept Ground as a decision. Ground helps other Flyers more than Togekiss. Paralysis absorption is acceptable, but Electric-type absorption is not IMO. It is simply too easy for other Flyers to capitalise on. Gyarados LOVES this almost as much as it loves the Rock resist.
I prefer Fighting and Electric as the lesser evil here. They doesn't get as much SE STAB on Toge counters as Rock, my preferred choice, but they have better defensive typing IMO.
I cannot accept Ground as a decision. Ground helps other Flyers more than Togekiss. Paralysis absorption is acceptable, but Electric-type absorption is not IMO. It is simply too easy for other Flyers to capitalise on. Gyarados LOVES this almost as much as it loves the Rock resist.
I don't mean to pick on you, but this is a response to a lot of points being made or presumptions people seem to have with regards to Fighting over Ground.
Furthermore, Blissey and Tyranitar are not major threats. I've used Togekiss a lot in my laddering. Certain sets can easily take care of Blissey, CAP11 should only make that easier. Tyranitar also can't stop Togekiss easily thanks to Thunder Wave + Aura Sphere. Togekiss can handle either with relative ease but can't really do both together. All CAP11 needs to really do is handle the other one and both Ground and Fighting can do this. Also, I'll reiterate, my post on why Gyarados does not love Ground partners. It's GyaraJolt not GyaraPert or GyaraDon. In fact, the only Ground types who appear as common partners on the June stats list are Swampert at 14th and Flygon at 19th. Both Jolteon and Electivire are ahead of them. The key is hitting bulky Waters and Starmie who can stop Gyarados from sweeping. It's not just a simple immunity game.
Like I said, I probably have no idea what I'm talking about.
Wow, guys, do we really need another Fighting CAP? Really? It won't help us vs Rotom-A, Zapdos, Jirachi, Jolteon, or any of the other shit that loves to switch in on Togekiss. We don't need to make it Fighting type to beat Blissey and Tyranitar because last I checked, a decently strong Pokemon with basically any Fighting move is enough to put those two out of commission.
Well, I'm sure there are those who voted for Fighting who realized they made a mistake but cannot switch to Ground. Oh, and last I checked, Aura Sphere was a Fighting-type move, people. Imagine what a few NPs could make it do to Blissey.
And there will be another poll, hopefully.
Edit: Typos, you gotta hate em. They sure hate me.
And there will be another poll, hopefully.
Edit: Typos, you gotta hate em. They sure hate me.
Since Steel appears to be out of the running, my support has moved to Fighting for this reason. On top of the Rock resistance, it's more specific to Togekiss that Ground is. We absolutely don't need something meant to absorb TBolts, we need something meant to be a good partner to Kiss. As for arguments that we don't need another Fighting CAP, that's kind of irrelevant to what would make the best Perfect Mate to Togekiss, and it doesn't necessarily have to fail at hitting Ghosts or Electrics. Payback or Pursuit and Earthquake would be sufficient unSTABed.
One day Togekiss and CAP 11 will be skipping in the park holding hands and shit like best buds until Jolteon comes up in that mug and starts firing off Specs Tbolts. What, is your Fighting type gonna have like 255 base HP and 135 Sp. Def with Natural Cure and recovery? If Ground isn't at least somewhere on this CAP's typing, we've fucked up, and badly.
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