CAP 24 CAP 24 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

[Drapionswing]

Poison-types: I have to agree with David0895, dealing with Heatran and being checked by things like Mollux and Plasmanta is kinda contradictory, as they require similar coverage.

I just want to point out that Heatran is capable of being hit by fighting coverage, and while this doesn't pair well with blacephalon in the coverage department Blacephalon takes a crap ton from a moonblast coming of sizeable power + stealth rock. As well as this Plasmanta can still be seen as a check, as plasmanta can come in on Cap24's stabs and pressure us out if we are slower(given environmental scenarios).

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

I just want to point out that Heatran is capable of being hit by fighting coverage, and while this doesn't pair well with blacephalon in the coverage department Blacephalon takes a crap ton from a moonblast coming of sizeable power + stealth rock. As well as this Plasmanta can still be seen as a check, as plasmanta can come in on Cap24's stabs and pressure us out if we are slower(given environmental scenarios).

I completely agree with Plasmanta staying as a check regardless of Ground coverage or not, since it has a fairly decent speed tier that can be use to revenge kill out of weather, further surmounted by its stab and possibility of Choice Scarf.

I'm also surprised that Crucibelle and its mega don't have a spot as a check. While it is frail, that great speed tier and the threat of Gunk Shot should not be ignored at all in terms of check territories, and Scarf Crucibelle could be a massive annoyance. It doesn't have to particularly switch in by itself, hence being a Poison type check, and can actually U-turn out safely to create mindgames. I think thats a pretty large annoyance. Perhaps add to checks?

 

[Hys]

Just because no one has talked about this yet, what are people's thoughts on Mega Alakazam checking/countering/being checked? due to how Trace works as an ability, it has a favorable matchup vs weather speed sweepers such as Swampert and Excadrill in OU. What should be its role vs CAP24?

 

[Professor Mesquite]

I find M-Alakazam as an incredibly interesting check to CAP24, as CAP24 is inherently a weather pokemon, and M-Alakazam's ability to steal any weather interactions outside of moves from CAP24 would make it incredibly powerful. For non-weather matchups however, I don't think it should have any inherent checking/countering interactions with M-Alakazam specifically.

I'd like to note to everyone that Chansey just slid by as a counter to CAP24, which isn't the best idea as far as I see. CAP24 listed one of its functions as stall/wall breaker, and being countered by Chansey undoes that. Chansey is already dangerous to offensive teams, and as weather is inherently time-limited, if we don't make CAP24 an answer to Chansey, both Sand and Sun will continue to struggle against it. I've also noted a lack of discussion on the second bulkiest wall, Arghonaut. While CAP24 possesses favorable type matchup against it, it still warrants discussion due to being so relevant to the metagame.

 

[david0895]

I just want to point out that Heatran is capable of being hit by fighting coverage, and while this doesn't pair well with blacephalon in the coverage department Blacephalon takes a crap ton from a moonblast coming of sizeable power + stealth rock. As well as this Plasmanta can still be seen as a check, as plasmanta can come in on Cap24's stabs and pressure us out if we are slower(given environmental scenarios).

Fighting coverage probably will not be enough to check it (especially the utility set), allowing Heatran to KO CAP24 with Magma Storm.
I agree with Plasmanta and (mega) Crucibelle of being capable to check it.
Mega Alakazam seems to be a fine option in case of CAP24 will have a speed boosting ability: a perfect case could be Chlorophyll traced with a sun boosted HP Fire

 

[reachzero]

I think it's unrealistic to expect CAP 24 to save Sun or Sand from Pokemon like Mega Alakazam that slice through all very fast, +speed Ability dependent teams, so I'm totally fine with leaving Mega Alakazam unaddressed as a powerful check.

Blacephalon is being really overrated as a factor. Right now, Blacephalon is excellent because Tyranitar is a non-factor in the metagame; if Sand rises significantly in viability, Blacephalon will go from very good to almost unviable in the blink of an eye.

Mega Scizor is a completely acceptable check, since it should never pose an existential threat to a Sand or Sun team by itself--Sand teams already have to have answers for Volkraken and Lele, and will virtually always cover Mega Scizor with something like Toxapex or Celesteela in the process. Sun teams should virtually always have one or both of Heatran and Volkraken. There is no excuse for being weak to Mega Scizor.

I agree with DrapionSwing that Fighting coverage would be acceptable to deal with Heatran while preserving Poison counters/checks. That would also encourage CAP 24 to run its Grass STAB to better hit Toxapex/Crucibelle.

Finally, Chansey will almost certainly be a check at worst unless we have a boosting move or truly insane Attack (or Sleep). I think that is acceptable, particularly for Sun, which has a bunch of excellent stall-breaking options. Sand has it a little tougher, so it's worth considering what anti-stall measures a Sand-specific set could use against Chansey.

Edit: non-STAB Z Focus Blast guarantees an OHKO on max HP Heatran from a 353 SpA stat, which is neutral nature base 127 or +SpA nature base 111. With Stealth Rock up, you can guarantee OHKOing Heatran at 305, which is neutral nature base 104. Fighting attacks are a completely acceptable way to beat Heatran.

 

[TKGriffiths]

Finally, Chansey will almost certainly be a check at worst unless we have a boosting move or truly insane Attack (or Sleep). I think that is acceptable, particularly for Sun, which has a bunch of excellent stall-breaking options. Sand has it a little tougher, so it's worth considering what anti-stall measures a Sand-specific set could use against Chansey.

Being a grass type potentially opens up SubSeed as a way to answer fat blobs. That requires 2 moveslots though, and given the typing's already poor coverage that's not something to consider lightly.

Also I disagree with a non-STAB fighting move being an acceptable answer to Heatran. It almost certainly won't be powerful enough to OHKO, maybe not even 2HKO if it's something like Superpower. Meaning Heatran would force CAP out, which is the opposite of the outcome we want.

 

[Drapionswing]

I will now be concluding the threat discussion, using the great input I was able to gather from this thread so far. I'm really happy with this list and how it has turned out.

Pokemon we want to beat:

Sun:
Heatran, Blacephalon, Crawdaunt, Mega Latios, Pajantom, Zygarde,

Sand:
Heatran, Landorus-T, Tapu Bulu, Tomohawk


Pokemon we want to pressure/threaten:
Mega Mawille, Mega Charizard X, Cawmodore, Ash Greninja, Kartana, Marowak-Alola, Celesteela

Pokemon we want to check Cap24:
Fire-Types: Mega Charizard Y, Volcarona, Marowak-Alola, Pyroak(Sand)
Steel Types: Mega Scizor, Excadrill, Magearna
Poison Types: Plasmanta, Fidgit, Mollux, Crucibelle, Mega Crucibelle
Priority Users: Kitsunoh, Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Syclant, Cawmodore
Other: Mega Alakazam
Special Wall: Chansey

Pokemon we want to counter Cap24:
Mega Venusaur
Pyroak(Sun)
Toxapex