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CAP 24 CAP 24 - Part 9 - Moveset Discussion

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Re: Recovery Moves

I think Shore Up is pretty much imperative. Not just so we have a way to abuse sand directly, but also because CAP24 is acting as a huge pain for Greninja-Ash on Sand teams for Trace sets. We could just give it Recover and avoid any potential optics issues, but I think at this point it'd be more worrisome if it seems like CAP24 doesn't really do much under Sand. CAP24 could probably function just fine with Shore Up under Sun as well. Synthesis has half the PP but recovers more per turn. I think both are definitely fine.

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Name: Sun Hazard Remover
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower / Focus Blast
Move 3: Rapid Spin Defog
Move 4: Synthesis
Ability: Drought
Item: Heat Rock / Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Name: Sand Hazard Remover
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower
Move 3: Rapid Spin Defog
Move 4: Shore Up
Ability: Trace
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 20 SpA / 92 SpD / 144 Spe
Nature: Timid

So earlier in the thread I commented that Rapid Spin would be better for CAP24. However, I'm thinking more that Defog would be a better choice. It means that you have to be more careful with setting your own hazards. Rapid Spin makes it really easy for CAP24 to just remove hazards; I feel like it'd be a little too easy. I definitely think hazard control is an ok option for CAP24, but Defog means you can't, say, reliably Spike-stack and remove Rocks from your side of the field.

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Name: Stun Spore Savagery
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower
Move 3: Stun Spore
Move 4: Shore Up
Ability: Trace/Drought
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP/4 SpA/252 Spe

Stun Spore raises red flags for me. We have few defensive checks and not too many consistent offensive checks. I like the idea behind paralysis, but I'm afraid it'll be too overwhelming, even if there is a pretty steep opportunity cost to running it. Even when you drop Focus Blast, you can still hit Heatran on the switch-in and cripple it for the rest of the match. While that might seem positive, it also affects Mega Crucibelle, Syclant, Greninja, etc. Suddenly checks are just slower, and then CAP24 can just pick the right move. I get that's what paralysis is for, but I'm still hesistant about it.

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Name: Terrain Adjuster
Move 1: Electric Terrain / Misty Terrain / Psychic Terrain
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Flamethrower / Focus Blast / Sludge Wave / Nature Power
Move 4: Flamethrower / Focus Blast / Sludge Wave / Nature Power
Ability: Trace / Drought
Item: Life Orb / Terrain Extender / Normalium-Z / Electrium-Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Nature: Timid

Is very interesting, yes. But Sludge Wave hits Pyroak really hard:

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pyroak: 283-335 (63.8 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Flamethrower does a significant amount of damage to Tapu Bulu, even while not under Sun, while the best Tapu Bulu can hit us with Nature's Madness.

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As a general note, here is a list of best of moves that have been generally discussed for CAP24 so far:

Moonblast
Solar Beam / Leaf Storm / Giga Drain
Flamethrower / Weather Ball
Focus Blast
Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Ground

Synthesis / Shore Up
Defog (or Rapid Spin, but imo Defog will be a better fit)
Healing Wish
Stun Spore

CAP24's projected movepool is pretty strong, despite being on the slightly smaller side. I still think Stun Spore should be discussed a lot more before we reach a verdict, but I think we can make plenty of movesets out of these moves alone. I'm definitely not trying to close off discussion, but I think it's important to take a step back and look at what CAP24 is projected to get. I don't think we really should go too much farther than this.

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EDIT:

Moveset Submission

Name: Grassium Z
Move 1: Solar Beam
Move 2: Flamethrower / Moonblast
Move 3: Focus Blast / Moonblast
Move 4: Synthesis
Ability: Drought
Item: Grassium Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Nature: Modest

Grassium Z forces Sun sets to build a little differently, but Z-Solar Beam is really cool:

252+ SpA Tapu Bulu Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 118-139 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 186-219 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

With some prior damage (like entry hazards), you can go Solar Beam -> Bloom Doom and KO Toxapex, which is pretty useful for Sun Teams.

252+ SpA Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 228 SpD Pelipper: 333-393 (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 746-882 (177.6 - 210%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 440-518 (121.8 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 374-444 (97.6 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

The other weather setters get nuked by Bloom Doom. If sand is up, Hippowdon can Slack Off any move CAP24 can throw at it barring Energy Ball / Giga Drain, so being able to get past it is really nice. Tyranitar gets hit really hard by Focus Blast, but in case you wanted Moonblast instead, you can remove still Tyranitar if Tyranitar switches into Flamethrower as:

252+ SpA Tapu Bulu Flamethrower vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 35-41 (9.6 - 11.3%) -- possible 9HKO
252+ SpA Tapu Bulu Moonblast vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 218-260 (60.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Modest is needed for the extra boost, but it's worth it if you can clear out these pesky mons that give Sun cores trouble.
 
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I was just thinking Shadowball could be an alternative to focus blast. I remember that people were worried what growth plus blast would do to Chaney since we want it to be a CAP24 counter. Haven't really run any calcs since I'm out for the day, but thought it would be good to share now.
 
I think recovery is an important part of CAP 24's potential use going forward. As what snake said, not having Shore Up makes it that much harder to justify CAP 24's Sand usage, and recovery in and of itself allows CAP 24 to consistently set sun, something that Sun lacks (and rain has), while also having the ability to not be consistently worn down in Sand (sand actually makes CAP 24's job of checking what it nees to much harder). Sy thesis may seem powerful, but one must remember its low PP and disadvantages if another weather is brought up.

I'd like to touch upon something that I'd expect to be thoroughly discussed at this state in the game, and which has been brought up several times throughout CAP 24's construction - set up.

Moveset Submission

Name: Le Growth Sweeper
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower / Weather Ball / Solar Beam
Move 3: Focus Blast / Earthquake / Solar Beam
Move 4: Growth
Ability: Drought
Item: Life Orb / Fightinium Z / Fairium Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Nature: Hasty

Let's talk about Growth. Growth has the potential to make CAP 24 a potent threat to face, but does it push it over the edge? Boosting makes CAP 24 significantly harder to wall, and turns a few solid counters into mincemeat.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pyroak in Sun: 400-472 (90.2 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak in Sun: 286-337 (64.5 - 76%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak in Sun: 317-374 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Solar Beam vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 312-368 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Focus Blast vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 416-491 (59.2 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 506-596 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 177-209 (59.5 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 173-204 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Tapu Bulu Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 245-288 (82.4 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The fact that it can bust past all of its sun counters at +2 (even without Z-Moves) shows that set up (Growth in particular) can be a very touchy move to dance around. Rototiller is a softer version of Growth, which is basically Work Up for Grass Types, but +1 is still a worthy notable power buff. I'd like to see much more discussion on it.

Some sand sets

Name: Sand Specs
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower
Move 3: Focus Blast / Weather Ball
Move 4: Energy Ball / Leaf Storm
Ability: Trace
Item: Choice Specs
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest

What CAP 24 was originally conceived to be at the Concept Assessment. Sand needs a special wallbreaker, and Specs makes CAP 24 that much harder for CAP 24 to be switched into. Fairy STAB + two coverage moves is very solid, hitting all of the important targets hard. Leaf Storm is a notable move that lacks discussion that I believe should get some discussion, especially on Sand sets. It gives a very powerful STAB attack that punches holes into alot of stuff. Can't bring up calcs atm, but its really nice.
 
G-Luke said:
Move 4: Growth
Click to expand...
Absolutely not. This move allows CAP24 to break through Pyroak, Chansey and even the slower Poison checks:

+2 252 SpA Tapu Bulu Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mollux: 356-420 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 346-408 (114.1 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ SpA Tapu Bulu Inferno Overdrive (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 276-326 (76 - 89.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (not a OHKO, but that's a really heavy damage)

Also for Chansey, CAP24 can even sacrifice a turn to get a second boost and easily OHKO it:

+4 252 SpA Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 758-894 (107.9 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
david0895 said:
Absolutely not. This move allows CAP24 to break through Pyroak, Chansey and even the slower Poison checks:

+2 252 SpA Tapu Bulu Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mollux: 356-420 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 346-408 (114.1 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ SpA Tapu Bulu Inferno Overdrive (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 276-326 (76 - 89.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (not a OHKO, but that's a really heavy damage)

Also for Chansey, CAP24 can even sacrifice a turn to get a second boost and easily OHKO it:

+4 252 SpA Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 758-894 (107.9 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Click to expand...

Toxapex has already been shown to be a mon that people are not against CAP 24 beating, and the Sun is missing from the Venusaur calc. That's actually important, as if sun is not present, Growth will only boost stats by one stage. The chances of CAP 24 getting to +2 in the absence of sun and with Mega Venusaur present on the team is next to nil.

Not saying that I support Growth, in fact I am very much against it - but I had to point out that important fact.
 
Moveset Submission

Name: Tailwind Speed Control for Sun
Move 1: Tailwind*
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Weather Ball / Flamethrower / Focus Blast
Move 4: Synthesis / Solar Beam / Focus Blast
Ability: Drought
Item: Leftovers / Heat Rock / Fightinium-Z
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe
Nature: Modest

  • Tailwind provides CAP with a speed control option Sun teams are looking for that is not as permanent as paralysis.
  • Moonblast provides powerful Fairy STAB to ward off Dragons like Latios.
  • Weather Ball or Flamethrower utilizes Drought for a powerful fire coverage move, while Focus Blast allows CAP to neutralize Heatran.
  • Synthesis provides powerful healing in sun, while Solar Beam provides a secondary STAB or Focus Blast in the last slot for Heatran.
  • Speed EVs allow CAP to outrun Choice Scarf 110 Pokemon like Latios and Kitsunoh under Tailwind
  • Item Choice reflects whether you want to opt for passive healing, better sun support, or the Z-nuke on Heatran.

A long time ago in a discussion far away, we discussed Sun teams needing a form a Speed Control. Stun Spore has been suggested and Sticky Web has been banned. I present another option, Tailwind, which works with CAP's role as a bulky pivot, it's offensive coverage threatening Pokemon that give sun trouble like Latios, and works well with the nature of sun teams to set up multiple times.

Moveset Submission

Name: Sand Cleric
Move 1: Healing Wish* / Aromatherapy*
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Shore Up
Move 4: Heat Wave / Flamethrower / Weather Ball
Ability: Trace
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SpA
Nature: Modest

  • Healing Wish or Aromatherapy allow CAP to give Sand teams the clerical support they are usually lacking, either as a broad status healing pivot or a one-time rejuvenation of an Excadrill sweep.
  • Moonblast is a primary STAB option which can OHKO Tomohawk after SR with a minimum roll.
  • Shore Up provides reliable recovery for this clerical set in Sand.
  • Heat Wave + Moonblast OHKOs Ferrothorn on overage with the slight buff in power, but Flamethrower is more accurate, or use Weather Ball for circumstantial Sand coverage.

The ubiquitous nature of Tomohawk and Landorus-T make a more defensive CAP clerical set a good option for a Sand team, and this set delivers clerical support in the form of a bulky healer with good gap coverage. CAP's high base Special Attack gives it more flexibility to run Leftovers on a set like this to negate sand plink, and to compound that with additional healing from Shore Up in sand.

Moveset Submission

Name: Manual Sandstorm
Move 1: Sandstorm*
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Weather Ball
Move 4: Shore Up
Ability: Drought / Trace
Item: Rockium-Z / Smoothe Rock
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Nature: Jolly
  • Z-Sandstorm allows CAP to set Sand and get a one-time +1 Speed boost, which works with 96 Base Spe to outrun all Scarved Base 95 Pokemon.
  • Moonblast provides necessary coverage to defeat Tomohawk, a major threat to Sand teams.
  • Weather Ball makes the most use of Sandstorm's change to the Rock-type to provide coverage CAP doesn't normally have access to.
  • Shore Up directly benefits from Sandstorm to increase its recovery, however it's still perfectly acceptable recovery in Sun and works well in helping CAP further sponge Water moves.
  • Either Drought or Trace actually work well, initially. Drought makes Weather Ball an immediately powerful Fire move that CAP can circumstantially change to rock type later (with or without Z-Crystal use), Trace forces CAP to rely on Moonblast or recovery before utilizing Sandstorm to access Rock weather ball, but Trace can net a better initial circumstance
  • Smoothe Rock makes sand last longer, but it's difficult to overlook the +1 Spe benefit of Z-Sandstorm.

This set is probably the strangest (and the last I will propose), but I feel like it encapsulates what we might look for in a Sand set. As a manual setter for Sand, CAP has a ton of interesting characteristics brought on by Drought, starting with the fact it can benefit other Sand Pokemon by reducing the power of Water moves if CAP doesn't opt to immediately set Sand. It also makes Weather Ball relevant before Sand setting.

RE: Assault Vest and Recovery Moves
Since it was asked, I think in the presence of competition with Recovery Moves and possibly non-attacking Speed Control or Hazard Control, Assault Vest will not be a particularly good set. Since Fiery Dance has also been banned it it basically not viable relative to other sets. The best Regenerators in CAP all have types and moves that make CAP hesitant to switch in and stay in, so bouncing Regen off Trace is not viable.

On Recovery Moves specifically I think they are an inevitability for the direction we want to take CAP, which is a Sun and Sand bulky pivoting mon with specific options to help those two playstyles. Longevity is necessary to those roles and that's what recovery moves provide.

RE: Stun Spore
Stun Spore also seems like a balanced speed control option because of how limited its targets are (can't para Grass or Elec, questionable Acc, doesn't work on already statused mons like Soil/Navi, etc.), and using moves like Scary Face or Cotton Spore for speed control is almost pointless. Stun Spore is a perfectly acceptable as the slot it takes up requires a significant sacrifice.
 
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Name: Le Growth Sweeper Rototiller Tree
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower / Weather Ball / Solar Beam
Move 3: Focus Blast / Earthquake / Solar Beam
Move 4: Growth Rototiller
Ability: Drought / Trace
Item: Life Orb / Fightinium Z / Fairium Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Nature: Hasty / Timid
Click to expand...

I'm going to rather rudely hop onto this one ^^;

Rototiller is a substantially more balanced boosting option in light of what our Counters offer.

First, Rototiller makes MVenu and Pyroak really good mons to switch in, since they would become +1/+1 threats, rather than us becoming a +2/+2 threat against them.

As an example of why +1 Pyroak is bad for this CAP?

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Shiinotic Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pyroak in Sun: 302-355 (68.1 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Pyroak Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Shiinotic in Sun: 360-426 (110.4 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

We don't OHKO it, it OHKOs us. Pyroak becomes a very reliable switch in.

+3 252 SpA Life Orb Shiinotic Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega in Sun: 317-374 (87.3 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Shiinotic Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega in Sun: 190-226 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Venusaur switches in on the Rototiller, and CAP24 is forced out.

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In addition, Rototiller leaves us far less likely to not be overwhelming Chansey

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Shiinotic Focus Blast vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 312-369 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Shiinotic All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 380-448 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Shiinotic Focus Blast vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 240-284 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Whilst it can 2HKO, when you factor in accuracy Chansey becomes a much more reliable response, able to sponge away Focus Blast

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Boosting does present a minor problem for our slower checks (Mollux, Toxapex), but a check not being able to tackle us after we've set up is not something I consider a massive end-of-the-world condition.
 
My question for Rototiller is: why?
Is it really necessary to have this move? Against who?
Outside of Celesteela all that we need to beat are directly OHKOed by our moves
 
I think that we have a clear consensus on the necessity of Recovery moves, therefore, Shore Up and Synthesis are now added to the list of required moves.

Moving on:

G-Luke said:
Name: Le Growth Sweeper
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Flamethrower / Weather Ball / Solar Beam
Move 3: Focus Blast / Earthquake / Solar Beam
Move 4: Growth
Ability: Drought
Item: Life Orb / Fightinium Z / Fairium Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Nature: Hasty
Click to expand...

Even before this thread started, it was apparent that Growth was going to be a very problematic move, thanks to its ability to plow past any of our checks and counters, and after looking at the calculations provided, I think that is clear that Growth (and by extension Tail Glow and Nasty Plot) are too much for CAP 24 and therefore, are now banned from discussion. On a side note, I'd like to remind you all that ALL Ground coverage is banned from discussion (This also applies to all other banned types), as while very situational, Earthquake could allow LO sets to OHKO Mollux after SR damage (0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Bulu Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux: 302-359 (76.6 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock) , while providing no real advantage over HP Ground or Focus Blast against Heatran (252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 317-374 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery | 0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Bulu Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 244-291 (63.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)

With that out of the way, It is time I address some of the most important issues in this thread, starting with Fire coverage. I think that most of us would agree that having sort of Fire move (Even if it is only Weather Ball) is vital to reliably deal with Celesteela, one of the most notable threats that we are supposed to beat. However people seem split between supporting Heat Wave or Flamethrower. People that favor the first argue that CAP doesn't need Flamethrower, and that despite the lower accuracy, Heat Wave is enough. I personally don't find this very important, but I'd like to note that having only Heat Wave means that Trace sets are stuck with a sub-par Fire move, while Drought gets to enjoy having a arguably more reliable one with Weather Ball. To try to solve this topic, here are two questions for everybody:

-Which Fire move would be the more appropiate one for CAP 24, Heat Wave or Flamethrower?
-What consequences, both positive and negative could this choice have?

There were also a few other moves that caught my eye, and I'd like to hear more about:

-Defog/Rapid Spin: While certainly a very powerful tool for CAP 24. I'd like to hear more people thoughts on these moves, why would they be needed, and why do they prefer one or the other.

-Leaf Storm: As G-Luke said this move certainly needs more discussion. It can provide Trace sets with a much more powerful Grass STAB, and it can even be used with Drought as a less weather dependent choice, as it would allow us to hit opposing weather setters when they try to switch in, something that Solar Beam is unable to do. However I'd like to see more calculations to show that is really needed, and not just power for the sake of power.

-Rototiller: I must admit, I don't really get this one. Moves that only raise your attack one stage, such as Work Up or Meditate are almost never used competitively, and I seriously doubt that CAP 24 will be able to pull off a successful Rototiller set, unless something else goes horribly wrong. However this goes both ways, and while I don't really like it, I also see no reason to disallow a move that I see as barely usable. If you think this move should be either required or disallowed, you should post your reasoning for it, and clearly explain why this usually useless move could be relevant for CAP 24.
 
Which Fire move would be the more appropriate one for CAP 24, Heat Wave or Flamethrower?

Between Flamethrower and Heat Wave, like you mention, it's really affecting the Sand sets here. If Drought CAP24 has to choose between Weather Ball and Heat Wave, I see little reason to ever go with a 90% accurate move over a 100% accurate move, even if Weather Ball is affected by opposing weathers. The other weather setters, barring Hippowdon get hit really hard by Moonblast, so it doesn't take much to make Sun the dominant weather on the field. Past that, having lower accuracy as a "debuff" is a really weak debuff. 10% of the time Heat Wave isn't doing the job that Flamethrower is. I'm not even sure if that's even a relevant enough difference, more than an annoyance. The counterplay to CAP24 remains the same - it's just that there's a low chance that the counterplay /might/ survive. That doesn't make it any more favorable for the counterplay. I'm not saying Heat Wave should be barred from the movepool, but I think it's silly to think that Heat Wave is a significant downgrade from Flamethrower, especially when it really hurts the weaker weather on CAP24.

Defog vs Rapid Spin

As I've said before, Defog would be better for CAP24 in terms of balance. Defogging away hazards on CAP24's side of the field means that you're also defogging away the hazards on the opposing team's field, so that makes the player think twice before clicking Defog. As for hazard removal in particular, it gives CAP24 good role compression for Sun teams. Let's not forget the drawbacks of running the move. If you give up Focus Blast, Heatran is a large threat to any Sun team. If you give up Weather Ball, you're not taking full advantage of the Sun. If you give up a STAB move, you lose out on a lot of general power. If you give up recovery, CAP24 has a lot less longevity. I think it's a healthy move to provide so that both CAP24 teams with Sun cores can see a little more variety. What's also nice about Defog is that it doesn't completely screw over the threatlist like paralysis or Tailwind would.

Rototiller (or, Boosting)

While we have mentioned that CAP24 can crack open Toxapex without boosting, boosting makes it significantly easier. Take the Grassium Z set I submitted at the top of the page. Yes, it /can/ crack open Toxapex, but Toxapex has to switch in and stay in against the Z move. Otherwise, it's still a solid answer to CAP24 and Recovers off damage until Sun goes away. While Rototiller is certainly no Growth, I just think we shouldn't touch boosting in general.

Will edit in opinions on Leaf Storm soon
 
-Which Fire move would be the more appropiate one for CAP 24, Heat Wave or Flamethrower?
-What consequences, both positive and negative could this choice have?

Since the power is pratically the same, Flamethrower is the best chioce, because the chance of missing with Heat Wave is not compensated

-Defog/Rapid Spin: Hazard removal is important because both of the weather teams suffer from the hazards: Volkraken and Char-Y are weak to the rocks, Tyranitar and Excadrill are chipped from Spikes. Also while the latter can remove them with Rapid Spin, most of the time it has to take the damage from the them and then from the Life Orb that holds

-Leaf Storm: i can't see any particular broken side on this move, also it helps CAP24 to wallbreak stuff even for the Sand team, so why not?
 
-Defog/Rapid Spin: Zephias already made a good point about this. CAP is a bad candidate for role compression due to its limited moveslots. It needs 3 attacks to have competent offensive coverage against what we want it to hit. Leaving only one moveslot to play around with, which in most cases should be a recovery move. This is why most sets with 2 attacks and offensive investment seem very questionable for me, the sets are walled by far too many things. The reason you put these utility moves on offensive pokemon is to use in the free turns they generate with their offensive pressure - but this CAP can't generate offensive pressure with only 2 moves, in fact it will generate free switching opportunities for the opponent.

Also these moves don't fulfill the concept at all. We're supposed to abuse weather, but nearly every kind of team uses hazard removal indiscriminately.

-Leaf Storm: I think this move is totally fine. Grass STAB is inherently bad, especially so in the context of the 3 move coverage problem I outlined above. It bridges the gap between Trace and Drought sets' viability a bit (since Drought already has Solarbeam), so I'm all for this. I don't think the arguments about this move should be about whether it's 'needed' - it's not. The best coverage for this CAP is achieved by Fairy, Fire, and Ground/Fighting. Grass is just an alternate attacking option, with far worse coverage but stronger base power. So I think Leaf Storm is ideal for this.

-Rototiller: I see this as little more than a joke or flavor move. I also think we banned the other boosting move prematurely. This next paragraph applies to that move and also Calm Mind. While I don't support Calm Mind because I don't think it's relevant to the concept, I certainly don't think it's overpowered.

The whole point of boosting moves are to power through defensive checks, so to ban them on that basis seems absurd. This CAP especially would need 3 move coverage on any kind of realistic offensive set. So Boosting Move + Sub or Boosting Move + Recovery sets seem ridiculous to me; they're only brought up in discussion to show that this one 2 attack Fightinium Z set can beat Chansey or whatever, ignoring that such a set performs drastically worse overall and is in fact conceived ONLY for the purpose of beating Chansey at the expense of every other matchup.

If you look at the calcs that were provided - they use 5 different offensive moves (given Moonblast is a staple on all sets). The majority of them also use Z-Moves. I would question, are these realistic sets? Or are they extremely niche sets designed entirely for the purpose of demonstrating a set that can be made that beats one specific counter?

It's true that boosting moves allow CAP to pick its counters - but at the cost of performing drastically worse against everything except the specific counter you choose to beat. I think that's a trade off with a steep opportunity cost.


snake_rattler said:
I'm not even sure if that's even a relevant enough difference, more than an annoyance.

I think it's silly to think that Heat Wave is a significant downgrade from Flamethrower, especially when it really hurts the weaker weather on CAP24.
Click to expand...

In this post you argue that Heat Wave is almost indistinguishable from Flamethrower in practice (which is the whole point of why I suggested it), then you go on to say that having Heat Wave over Flamethrower 'really hurts'. Which is it?
 
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TKGriffiths said:
-Rototiller: I see this as little more than a joke or flavor move. I also think we banned the other boosting move prematurely. This next paragraph applies to that move and also Calm Mind. While I don't support Calm Mind because I don't think it's relevant to the concept, I certainly don't think it's overpowered.

The whole point of boosting moves are to power through defensive checks, so to ban them on basis seems absurd. This CAP especially would need 3 move coverage on any kind of realistic offensive set. So Boosting Move + Sub or Boosting Move + Recovery sets seem ridiculous to me; they're only brought up in discussion to show that this one 2 attack Fightinium Z set can beat Chansey or whatever, ignoring that such a set performs drastically worse overall and is in fact conceived ONLY for the purpose of beating Chansey at the expense of every other matchup.

If you look at the calcs that were provided - they use 5 different offensive moves (given Moonblast is a staple on all sets). The majority of them also use Z-Moves. I would question, are these realistic sets? Or are they extremely niche sets designed entirely for the purpose of demonstrating a set that can be made that beats one specific counter?

It's true that boosting moves allow CAP to pick its counters - but at the cost of performing drastically worse against everything except the specific counter you choose to beat. I think that's a trade off with a steep opportunity cost.
Click to expand...
Thats not true at all. How does hitting twice as hard make you drastically worse in ANY regard? Growth allows you to turn 2HKOs into OHKOs and 3HKOs into 2HKOs. That is more than worth giving up a coverage move. And my calc showed just how powerful it is, since it doesnt need Fighting coverage to beat Chansey if it has a boosting move. It Idealy runs Growth + Moonblast + Fire Coverage + Fighting Coverage/Grass STAB, which makes it either walled by Heatran or walled my Toxapex. In fact, if someone decided they want Physically defensive Toxapex on their team (which is still quite viable) then this hapens.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 143-169 (47 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Don't say set up makes you worse. Set up, at the cost of one coverage move, allows you to steamroll EVERYTHING that is hit by your three attacks. And everyone knows that Fairy + Fighting + Fire coverage is extremely potent, so most of the metagame straight up dies.
 
Want to cover a few things now that the thread is focused somewhere on the specific moves discussion.

Fire Coverage:

I would be entirely comfortable with Overheat and Weather Ball as the two primary fire moves. Overheat outdamages Flamethrower but cannot be spammed, and gives CAP a highly competent legetimate Firium-Z nuke. Weather Ball in turn is a great, consistent option for Drought sets with a significant power increase from Flamethrower in exchange for less consistency in extremely long matches where your sun fades and CAP is the last Pokemon.

I really think the Flamethrower vs Heat Wave question is a false dichotomy. They are not dissimilar enough where one is much more powerful, and I say this having submitted a set which doesn't maximize Special Attack where the Heat Wave power increase does actually make a marginal difference in calculations. The real question is do we want a consistent, spammable, relatively powerful non-weather reliant Fire move, and what move should that be?

Fire Pledge in contrast to the above dichotomy *is* dissimilar in that it doesn't have a burn effect and is less powerful. Part of me would almost rather see Fire Pledge / Overheat / Weather Ball than [Flamethrower/Heat Wave] / Weather Ball.

Leaf Storm:
Leaf Storm's utility is much the same as Overheat, but it's specific to Sand because Drought sets can rely on Solar Beam for most of their needs. Leaf Storm's primary competition comes from Giga Drain and Energy Ball. Giga Drain offsets Sand plink, whereas Energy Ball is your Flamethrower equivalent for grass moves. It makes a Grassium-Z set for Sand much more attractive, and since we have worries about Sand's ability to compete with Sun, I would say Leaf Storm is well within the bounds of something we should consider.

Stat-Ups:
SpA Stat-ups along with Focus Blast provide CAP a means to get around Chansey. Fire + Fighting + Fairy coverage hits large portions of the metagame, Mollux and Toxapex are the most reliable switch-in,s and you could substitute out Hidden Power Ground against Mollux and rely of Focus Blast + Moonblast to be your mainstays. Toxapex is probably the best blocker to anything that isn't stat-up + Grassium, but Grass over Fire makes the coverage threat of the sets significantly worse. Basically with stat-ups, pick your Poison because one of Mollux or Toxapex is going to wall it hard.

I think Rototiller is the stat-up most in line with maintaining our counters list, and I'd prefer Tailwind to permanent +2 speed boosters like Rock Polish/Agility. When it comes to CAP sets though, I really don't think stat booster sets get the most out of CAP's concept to be considered abuse of two weathers in different ways, it's just a sort of extra set we don't really need to encourage. Tailwind is different because it's also speed control support and not a direct speed boost. I'd rather see Tailwind as the only sort of stat-boosting related option.

Light Screen:
I have not brought it up in a set because Pokemon that only set one screen are fairly rare and I don't want CAP to be a dual screener, however Light Screen does provide a bulkwark against Ash-Greninja for every sort of team, and I'd like to see it specifically allowed even if it's not required. It can fit in on any of the utility oriented sets as the primary support move.
 
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G-Luke said:
Don't say set up makes you worse. Set up, at the cost of one coverage move, allows you to steamroll EVERYTHING that is hit by your three attacks. And everyone knows that Fairy + Fighting + Fire coverage is extremely potent, so most of the metagame straight up dies.
Click to expand...

That was in the context of the rest of the post - in that sets with 2 attacking moves or a specific z-crystal perform better against the specific check/counter it's meant to beat but drastically worse against everything else.

Also I think the scaremongering around growth is ridiculous. Keep in mind it's actually just a worse Swords Dance/Nasty Plot on a pokemon with a middling speed tier. This won't be sweeping anytime soon. The Pex calc - it can just switch in, click haze, and heal up. That calc doesn't break it at all.
 
Reminder: Growth is banned, please refrain from discussing here. If anyone has any objections to this, feel free to contact me, but do not post in thread.
 
TKGriffiths said:
-Defog/Rapid Spin:In this post you argue that Heat Wave is almost indistinguishable from Flamethrower in practice (which is the whole point of why I suggested it), then you go on to say that having Heat Wave over Flamethrower 'really hurts'. Which is it?
Click to expand...
Er...that's not what I said. If you read a couple sentences earlier, I said that the difference was a 10% form of accuracy and then go on to say that the counterplay against Heat Wave doesn't change because the move is still largely in favor of hitting. Mega Charizard Y commonly wants a move with more than 8 PP (Fire Blast), so it generally goes for Flamethrower. Now, say that the alternative is not Flamethrower, but Heat Wave (even though Heat Wave as less PP than Flamethrower). Does the counterplay against Mega Charizard Y change all that much....at all? Unless the miss is your only out to winning the match, do you think, "Ok, I can switch in my Mega Pinsir to beat Mega Charizard Y because Heat Wave has a 10% chance to miss." Most of the time you aren't going to do that; 90% is still a 90% chance to hit. Maybe late-game you can get that clutch miss and don't have a better play, but my point is, the miss chance does not make the counterplay to Heat Wave change at all. When you teambuild and play matches, you don't assume moves are going to miss. You assume that they hit, especially if it's 90% accuracy.

Then, going back to what you've misconstrued from my post, you think I said the choice "really hurts" the Sand sets that are dependent on this choice of Fire-type move. What I was referring to was at the top of my post, when I said that the Heat Wave vs Flamethrower thing is really sitting over the Sand-based sets. Again, Weather Ball vs Heat Wave isn't really a question when CAP24 sets it's own Sun. So when I said that it "really hurts" the Sand-based sets, I meant that this so-called downgrade is really only affecting the Sand sets, the sets that are inherently weaker at the moment. Is that what we want?

TKGriffiths said:
-Defog/Rapid Spin: Zephias already made a good point about this. CAP is a bad candidate for role compression due to its limited moveslots. It needs 3 attacks to have competent offensive coverage against what we want it to hit. Leaving only one moveslot to play around with, which in most cases should be a recovery move. This is why most sets with 2 attacks and offensive investment seem very questionable for me, the sets are walled by far too many things. The reason you put these utility moves on offensive pokemon is to use in the free turns they generate with their offensive pressure - but this CAP can't generate offensive pressure with only 2 moves, in fact it will generate free switching opportunities for the opponent.
Click to expand...
Alright so you have a set like Moonblast + Fire-type move + Defog + Synthesis. What switches in? Our counters still switch in. Heatran now walls us :( Mollux and Victini still wall us. Mega Crucibelle and Volkraken can now easily switch in. Sure, that's a few Pokemon, but isn't this how teambuilding works? If you need a defogger and all of your mons need to have "competent coverage," I don't always tank the loss of hazard control and then proceed to die to hazards. Let's look at Zapdos. Zapdos needs perfect coverage in Discharge + Heat Wave + Hidden Power Ice. Then it needs Roost to stay healthy. "Darn, there aren't enough moveslots for Defog. I guess Zapdos can't be a good user of Defog. It'll lose out on coverage." Or you could remove Hidden Power Ice and run teammates that actually deal with the loss of coverage. Does Zapdos now have a harder time against Zygarde, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Colossoil, Latios-Mega, etc. because it can't hit them with Hidden Power Ice for sufficient chip or the ability to 1v1 them? Yeah, that much is obvious. But now Zapdos has the utility of running Defog. Another Defog user: Tornadus-Therian. Tornadus-Therian would want to have Hurricane + Superpower + U-turn + Knock Off for "perfect coverage," but in this case it likes the massive utility from U-turn and Knock Off. Is there not enough room for Defog if you remove one of the moves? Of course there is; you'll just need a teammate that can properly OHKO Tyranitar. I know these aren't perfect examples, but I'm trying to work with the offensive Defog users in OU. However, I cite many other Defog users in lower tiers that go through th exact same process of dropping a move for Defog, losing coverage, and then relying on teammates to fix it's problems.

Returning to CAP24, I've acknowledged CAP24 loses out on coverage if it runs Defog and consequently loses to a handful of Pokemon. But Fairy- + Fire-type coverage is really scary two-move coverage. So is Fairy + Fighting. If CAP24 wants to run Defog, it can have some teammates like Colossoil that deal with the extra switch-ins. We don't have to beat everything on the threatlist in all sets.

Deck Knight said:
Want to cover a few things now that the thread is focused somewhere on the specific moves discussion.

Fire Coverage:

I would be entirely comfortable with Overheat and Weather Ball as the two primary fire moves. Overheat outdamages Flamethrower but cannot be spammed, and gives CAP a highly competent legetimate Firium-Z nuke. Weather Ball in turn is a great, consistent option for Drought sets with a significant power increase from Flamethrower in exchange for less consistency in extremely long matches where your sun fades and CAP is the last Pokemon.

I really think the Flamethrower vs Heat Wave question is a false dichotomy. They are not dissimilar enough where one is much more powerful, and I say this having submitted a set which doesn't maximize Special Attack where the Heat Wave power increase does actually make a marginal difference in calculations. The real question is do we want a consistent, spammable, relatively powerful non-weather reliant Fire move, and what move should that be?

Fire Pledge in contrast to the above dichotomy *is* dissimilar in that it doesn't have a burn effect and is less powerful. Part of me would almost rather see Fire Pledge / Overheat / Weather Ball than [Flamethrower/Heat Wave] / Weather Ball.
Click to expand...
I do see your point about Fire Pledge; the drop in Base Power makes it objectively far worse than Flamethrower. However, I'm confused about Overheat. We've been saying that Flamethrower is really strong...isn't Overheat just stronger? As you say, Overheat outdamages Flamethrower, which I think is saying how Overheat's decreasing base power over two turns (130 + 65 = 195) exceeds Flamethrower's consistent base power over two turns (90 + 90 = 180). Isn't that the reason why many Dragon-types tend to run Draco Meteor over Dragon Pulse? You don't really see the Overheat vs Flamethrower choice often because Fire Blast sits in the way most of the time. I'll have to do calcs to see why Overheat is being proposed, but on first glance, it seems odd to me.
 
snake_rattler said:
I say that the counterplay against Heat Wave doesn't change because the move is still largely in favor of hitting.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what being 'indistinguishable in practice' means. Unless you want to argue that the base power difference of Heat Wave makes a significant difference? I thought the fact it's so small as to be dwarfed by even damage roll variance precludes this.

And yes, weakening the sand set is apparently exactly what we want since we're not giving it Fire Blast. We clearly have no problem with lowering TraceCAP's offensive ceiling, why should we default to the next most efficient move that still does the job rather than the least efficient? The answer given is 'this further increases the gulf in viability between TraceCAP and DroughtCAP because DroughtCAP has Weather Ball'. True, but is this not an argument against Weather Ball, rather than against Heat Wave? Is Weather Ball even necessary, given we've already established the weaker Flamethrower does enough? Or are we again defaulting to giving CAP the best possible moves (surplus to what's actually required).

This last bit directed at everyone in general: I want to emphasize that I don't consider 'because Flamethrower is better' to be a valid answer to the question of Flamethrower vs Heat Wave. We're not here to give CAP the best moves possible (see Fire Blast), we're here to give it moves with the power level required to perform specific tasks, and no more. Flamethrower is adequate for these tasks, so is Heat Wave. There's absolutely no reason to default to the better one (other than what we covered above, which I see as an argument against Weather Ball, not Heat Wave).

snake_rattler said:
Zapdos
Click to expand...

My post refers to utility moves on offensive sets. Zapdos doesn't use offensive sets. Tornadus-T doesn't need perfect coverage because it can apply offensive pressure with Knock-Off and U-Turn, moves CAP will presumably lack.

In terms of Defog/Rapid Spin I'd like to hear more discussion about why these moves are actually necessary. I feel again we're defaulting to giving it options 'just because' rather than any concept related reason. You could argue that these moves also benefit DroughtCAP more than TraceCAP; given sand already has Rapid Spin Excadrill for hazard removal, which has far less competition for its moveslots than CAP presumably will.
 
Re: Rototiller

I do not see why we should be worried about this move. Besides from the potential doubles use which doesn't compute into this discussion, it's a sub-par boosting option that takes one of our precious move slots (which, as mentioned before, are extremely valuable due to Baocap's game plan and role) and still allows a boosting option which while niche, is also usable. I like that, it gives variety without breaking things the way Growth would have.

It's also full of flavour and goodness so I like it /shot

Re: Overheat

Unless the need is Z-Fires being blasted in sun, I think Overheat is a trap. -2 Special means that we'll give an in to things that we would normally deal with after using it, turning neutrals into losing matchups and potentially favourable ones into neutrals or even losing ones. To reset to a neutral position, we'd need to switch. That's essentially giving up momentum and field position to your opponent for the sake of a little extra damage when I feel that Flamethrower/Heat Wave/Weather Ball/Lava Plume already does the job quite well.

Re: Fire Pledge

When would this ever be ran over Weather Ball or Flamethrower.

Re: Leaf Storm

Now, people are about to say "but Zeph, if Overheat's -Special is too much, surely Leaf Storm's -Special would also cause problems?" And you'd be right, except Grass-type STAB is significantly less common as a spam attack for Baocap looking at our target list. As such, killing that one thing that really needs to die to Grass (which isn't even Ash-Gren since IIRC it dies to Moonblast) is more than worth the stat drops. It also offers an alternative to Giga Drain outside of Sun, trading punching power for healing.

I don't really expect it to have a presence in sun, though. Not when Baocap has Drought and potentially solarbeam.
 
TKGriffiths said:
That's exactly what being 'indistinguishable in practice' means. Unless you want to argue that the base power difference of Heat Wave makes a significant difference? I thought the fact it's so small as to be dwarfed by even damage roll variance precludes this.

And yes, weakening the sand set is apparently exactly what we want since we're not giving it Fire Blast. We clearly have no problem with lowering TraceCAP's offensive ceiling, why should we default to the next most efficient move that still does the job rather than the least efficient? The answer given is 'this further increases the gulf in viability between TraceCAP and DroughtCAP because DroughtCAP has Weather Ball'. True, but is this not an argument against Weather Ball, rather than against Heat Wave? Is Weather Ball even necessary, given we've already established the weaker Flamethrower does enough? Or are we again defaulting to giving CAP the best possible moves (surplus to what's actually required).

This last bit directed at everyone in general: I want to emphasize that I don't consider 'because Flamethrower is better' to be a valid answer to the question of Flamethrower vs Heat Wave. We're not here to give CAP the best moves possible (see Fire Blast), we're here to give it moves with the power level required to perform specific tasks, and no more. Flamethrower is adequate for these tasks, so is Heat Wave. There's absolutely no reason to default to the better one (other than what we covered above, which I see as an argument against Weather Ball, not Heat Wave).
Click to expand...

Alright, if they're indistinguishable in practice, then it means that it's really down to weather people think having a 90% accurate move will be any more balanced than a 100% accurate one. I just don't really see the point in arguing this further if they're that similar. I'd like a 100% accurate move because having a chance to miss is just frustrating; you'd like a 90% accurate one because you think it's more balanced, even though it doesn't change anything. That's just personal preference.

TKGriffiths said:
In terms of Defog/Rapid Spin I'd like to hear more discussion about why these moves are actually necessary. I feel again we're defaulting to giving it options 'just because' rather than any concept related reason. You could argue that these moves also benefit DroughtCAP more than TraceCAP; given sand already has Rapid Spin Excadrill for hazard removal, which has far less competition for its moveslots than CAP presumably will.
Click to expand...

Excadrill would drop Rapid Spin so fast if it had a viable teammate that could remove hazards:

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Rapid Spin / Swords Dance

Swords Dance is slashed there, and Excadrill just wants to break more stuff with it but generally has to run Rapid Spin because most other spinners don't fit on Sand teams. Excadrill might not have as much competition for moveslots than CAP24 based on number, but dropping Swords Dance for Rapid Spin is one factor of Excadrill's viability has dropped. So really, Defog helps Excadrill out too for Sand teams.

TKGriffiths said:
My post refers to utility moves on offensive sets.
Click to expand...
It seems like you like definitions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you think "offensive" means invested in an offensive stat, maybe a boosting item. So why are the submitted movesets in mxmt's post #49 with Defog or Rapid Spin have 252 HP and not 252 SpA? It seems like people have acknowledged that Defog should be run on bulkier sets that still have an offensive presence.

I still think Defog could fit on CAP24's offensive sets though, even if the coverage isn't as good. Quite a few Defoggers go through this process. Since you didn't like my OU examples, I'll cite some examples from UU, just so show that these mons go through the same process that CAP24 goes through of picking between coverage or utility.
Hydreigon runs Defog over Fire Blast shown by its 3rd and 5th sets on its uploaded analysis. Removing the extraneous Flash Cannon slashes, the sets are:

Life Orb Attacker
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Roost
- Fire Blast

Offensive Defog
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Defog
- Draco Meteor
- Roost
- Dark Pulse / Fire Blast

Look at this offensive Pokemon dropping a moveslot usually dedicated to an offensive move (Dark Pulse or Fire Blast) for Defog.
Life Orb Attacker
Latias @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic / Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Fire / Defog
- Recover / Healing Wish / Defog

Look at this offensive Pokemon having Defog slashed with a coverage move or a recovery move or Healing Wish, just like CAP24.
Specially Biased Attacker
Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake / Defog / Heal Bell
- Roost

Look at this offensive Pokemon having Defog slashed with a coverage move. And if it's running it with Fairy + Fire-type coverage too :thinking:
I'm not saying that Defog is the best option and that 3 move coverage isn't important. I'm saying that it's definitely possible to have Defog on offensive sets, even if the set loses out of some of its effectiveness. Your opponent doesn't know whether or not you're running Defog until you show it, so Heatran might even be a little wary of switching into CAP24 because of the threat of Focus Blast when, really, CAP24 doesn't have it at all.
 
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There has been a lot of discussion on CAP24 regarding its sets and functionality however I feel like something has been missed which I think is pretty vital for CAP24. Trace sets function on sand teams is very questionable at the moment as it lacks offensively in comparison to drought sets. Realistically all arguments to make Trace compete with Drought are just not plausible as offensively Drought is the better option. I think we should be focusing more on defensive potential given our role on sand, this would allow us to potentially support pokemon that need it like Tyranitar, or Excadrill.

The question that leaves, is what moves will be able to accomplish this? Well, we've had the suggestions of Healing Wish and Heal Bell, both of which are able to compliment Sand teams at an effective rate, however I feel like Wish is also something we should consider to also support sand teams. TTar for one lacks longevity, which makes it struggle with being a effective stealth rocker while also being unable to pressure common hazard removers.

There has been a lot of mention of hazard removal, however I don't fully support it. While hazard removal is nice for a partner such as Volkraken, I don't think it benefits it's "partners" that much. This is down to Cap24's role being so splashable as this makes it capable of so much independence outside of partners that we're aiming for.
 
I would like to argue that Overheat, and only Overheat, is the native (i.e. not Weather Ball) Fire coverage CAP 24 should receive.

I see two different concerns playing out over Fire coverage in this thread, following lines of discussion we've seen on the Discord server. Each side is attempting to make CAP 24 as effective as possible within certain limits, but the two concerns diverge on the question of how high the standard for these limits should be. Several users, notably snake_rattler, have argued for Flamethrower on the basis of it being the most efficient Fire move ordinarily available. It has good base power and flawless accuracy, making it very reliable, to the point of being "spammable"--there is rarely any downside to clicking Flamethrower, as it allows CAP 24 to consistently threaten out Steel types like Ferrothorn without the need to switch out. A set with Moonblast/Flamethrower/HP Ground/Shore Up would threaten every Steel type in the metagame, and be an absolute terror to deal with round after round. In other words, I am not contesting that Flamethrower is the most efficient Fire move for CAP 24 to use. I am stating that I dislike how efficient this makes CAP 24 overall, and how little counterplay it allows for. I propose Overheat as a sort of trade-off: it possesses nearly 50% more initial power than Flamethrower, and 30% more than Weather Ball in Sun, but at the cost of allowing far more counterplay in practice. This counterplay comes via the SpA drop that is the key mechanic of Overheat: one would not normally think of Mega Tyranitar as a check for a Grass/Fairy type, for instance, but it beat CAP 24 one-on-one (and so forces it out) if it comes in on Overheat and has Fire or Ice Punch.

There are situations where the added power of Overheat is an advantage, of course: it does more chip damage to the things that resist Fire than Flamethrower does, and Z Overheat + Overheat is one of the strongest two-turn Fire sequences CAP 24 can use. The difference for two-round burst sequences is not quite as pronounced as one would think, though: SpD Pyroak takes (58.6 - 69.3%) from Modest Drought Z Overheat and (39.2 - 46.2%) from Modest Drought Overheat, meaning it has a small chance to be 2HKOed even without Stealth Rock damage. Timid does (53.7 - 63.2%) and (35.6 - 42.2%), which cuts the likelihood of 2HKOing (without Stealth Rock) substantially. This sounds like a dealbreaker, except that Modest Drought Z Flamethrower does (53 - 62.5%) to SpD Pyroak, and a Modest Drought Flamethrower does (27.5 - 32.5%)! Timid does (48.3 - 56.8%) (24.8 - 29.3%), which confirms that while Z Overheat can beat Pyroak in Sun and has better odds to do so than Z Flamethrower, both beat Pyroak with Stealth Rock up, and neither consistently beats it without Stealth Rock up. This means that the difference in power gained in matchups such as SpD Pyroak is more than offset by the power lost in two move sequences like Flamethrower + Moonblast against Krilowatt as opposed to Overheat + Moonblast against Krilowatt.

The Trace set needing to threaten Celesteela without giving the Drought set a means of outright beating Charizard-Y essentially mandates that we have a Fire attack of some kind that is not Weather Ball. Overheat is the best and most balanced option in that it grants more initial power than Flamethrower, while giving the opponent more counterplay in the form of switches to Pokemon that win an Overheat + Moonblast sequence, which would otherwise lose a Flamethrower + Moonblast sequence.
 
WIP: Weather Ball, Do we need it?

Initially I like everyone else thought that this move was guaranteed because of how perfectly it seems to fit the concept. I've changed my mind, and I'll explain why.

After some discord discussion, we thrashed out the reasons in favor of having Weather Ball in the movepool. I've boiled them down to three.

(1) Flavor
(2) Weather Ball + Drought gives CAP fire coverage, while also allowing CAP to abuse the Sun weather condition as per the concept.
(3) Weather Ball + Sand gives CAP rock coverage, while also allowing CAP to abuse Sand weather condition as per the concept.

So to debunk each reason in turn.

1) Flavor is totally irrelevant at this stage of movepool discussion. We're distributing moves at this point based only on competitive merit. Competitive merit meaning either moves that enable CAP to perform the roles we've decided it should be perform (while at the same time not enabling CAP to perform roles we DON'T want it to perform, such as beating its checks), or moves relating to the concept of CAP abusing Sun/Sand.

2) I think it's obvious that CAP is certainly getting either Flamethrower or Heat Wave (I'll refer only to Flamethrower from here on for brevity. Some argue that Fire Blast or Overheat are alternatives as well). CAP is required to beat Celesteela. Celesteela only has two weaknesses, and we cannot have strong electric coverage because Toxapex and Charizard-Y need to be preserved as checks/counters. This leaves strong fire coverage as the only option, specifically fire coverage with base power of 90 or higher in order to threaten a 2HKO without Sun. 'Without Sun' being important because CAP must perform this function even on Sand teams, on which it is thought to be using Trace as its ability rather than Drought.

That alone removes the first part of reason (2) - CAP already has suitable fire coverage in the form of Flamethrower, so we don't need Weather Ball for that. That leaves only the idea that Weather Ball supposedly fits the concept better than Flamethrower.

So lets recap, the concept is for CAP to abuse the weather conditions of Sun and Sand. I'll ignore the Sand part for now, since that will be addressed under reason (3). So consider only Sun. Does Weather Ball allow CAP to abuse Sun any more than Flamethrower? Lets see. When Sun is shining, Weather Ball and Flamethrower as fire-type moves gain 50% more power. That's an identical benefit, so we can see that here both moves allow CAP to abuse Sun to the same extent. The fact that Weather Ball is always Fire-type in Sun is not a unique selling point - Flamethrower is also always Fire-type in Sun. The only difference comes outside Sun, where Weather Ball becomes a 50 BP normal-type move. Is this a a property of Weather Ball that allows CAP to abuse Sun? I think not, since it happens only when Sun isn't shining.

3) Coming soon, this post took longer than I thought.
 
Ok, I think the time has came for me to (at least partially) approve some complete sets. Here's the list of Movesets that have clearly reached an ICC:

Name: Drought Abuser
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: [Fire Coverage]
Move 3: Focus Blast
Move 4: Synthesis / Healing Wish
Ability: Drought
Item: Fightinium Z / Life Orb / Heat Rock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Name: Grassium Z
Move 1: Solar Beam
Move 2: [Fire Coverage] / Moonblast
Move 3: Focus Blast / Moonblast
Move 4: Synthesis
Ability: Drought
Item: Grassium Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Nature: Modest

Name: Sun Scarf
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: [Fire Coverage]
Move 3: Focus Blast
Move 4: Solar Beam
Ability: Drought
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest

Name: Utility
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: [Fire Coverage] / Focus Blast
Move 3: Healing Wish
Move 4: Shore up / Synthesis
Ability: Trace / Drought
Item: Leftovers / Heat Rock / Fightium-Z
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

I had to make a few edits to remove some controversial moves (Rapid Spin and Fire coverage, to be more specific)
Moonblast
Focus Blast
Solar Beam
Healing Wish

On a more particular note, I've been quite underwhelmed by the responses about Leaf Storm so far, as they seem to simply state that this move helps Sand by allowing CAP 24 to use a powerful Grass STAB there, but always fail to provide exact examples where this helps us to achieve our goals. I'd really like to hear a more detailed explanation on how this move would benefit CAP 24, showing relevant calculations to prove it.

I think that we've come pretty far onto this discussion, so I think it's time we start wrapping up. As I'd like to finish this stage on Thursday, This a ~72 hour waning.

Issues that need more discussion:

Main points (Things that will undoubtebly have a great impact on this project)
  • Leaf Storm
  • Fire coverage
  • Weather Ball
  • Hazard Removal
  • Stun Spore

Minor Points (More niche options, that might have some healthy/unhealthy consequences, but are likely to have barely any competitive implications)
  • Terrain moves
  • Tailwind
  • Light Screen
 
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Fire coverage
We absolutely need fire coverage. With setup basically being canned (aside from Rototiller memes lmao), we need this to beat Celesteela. I think that the ideal way to go about it is Flamethrower + Weather Ball. Heat Wave as our native move seems weird. The difference in accuracy is an unneeded annoyance that hurts Sand sets for absolutely no reason. Heat Wave is cool flavor, but has absolutely no good reason to be picked over Flamethrower.

Weather Ball
While I completely understand that it may not be needed, Weather Ball causes no harm. After thinking about it, while Weather Ball isn’t in practice worth running aside from Rock Ball (tm) in Sand, I see no reason to ban it. At this point, we should just require Flamethrower and leave Weather Ball up to the people who submit flavor movepools.

Hazard Control
Honestly, Defog is what I’m liking. While I’m certain CAP could live without Defog, I think the benefit it provides to Sun teams (and non-weather teams, which is something we wanted to do in concept assesment) is big enough to where it would be significant enough to warrant giving Defog. CAP at the moment has very little utility overall, and I feel that that fact could harm our viability out of weather teams. As such, Defog is useful in weather and out of it, and I sincerely hope we get Defog.

Terrain Moves
I honestly don’t think we need these, and it doesn’t do much to help, unlike Defog. I don’t care what happens to these.
 
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