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Hazard Control
I think it might adds too much role comprension to CAP24, or it might adds a 4MSS to CAP24. The one concerns me the most is Rapid Spin, because that opens a space for Sun and Sand teams to use hazard stacking in a more efficient way, and that's specially dangerous for Sun teams because we're making Volkraken even harder to switch into. Defog on the other hand, if it indeed creates more role compresion for Sun teams, it doesn't allow hazard stacking so easily so it's a more reasonable choice. I think Defog is an alright tool for CAP24, but it shouldn't have Rapid Spin.
Terrain Moves
Removing Grassy Terrain for Sand teams is actually useful, I'd say the best choice is Misty Terrain because it'd make Pokemon like Tyranitar or Excadrill to not being crippled by status so easily. I think we should consider at least one of those terrains, even if it'd be a niche option at the end of the day.
Light Screen
That makes easier to check Ash-Greninja, specially for Sand teams, which is actually something can be exploited. I think is a good idea to add it.
Tailwind
If it's certainly true Sun teams need Speed control tools, this can be achieved using Pokemon like Scarf Greninja or Scarf Kartana, that'd be probably be too much, specially if we consider (again) Specs Volkraken would become even more dangerous. I'd say it's probably not a good idea.
On the other hand, I'm not sure if CAP24 would have space to use Tailwind in Sun teams sets, and it'd probably be a bit redundant for Sand teams considering Sand Rush Excadrill would be a thing. I'm leaning toward not adding Tailwind to CAP24.
I'm concerned about the threatlist with relation to these moves. While yes, you have to drop a STAB move to run these, clicking one of these moves really strains the threatlist in the wrong way. For example, instead of predicting and clicking a Fire-type coverage move on a Kitsunoh switch-in, the less risky solution is to click one of these moves and ease that prediction. In doing so, these moves make CAP24 significantly easier to play with, as you can simply sacrifice coverage against some Pokemon to have an easy, sure-fire win against others. Not only this, Stun Spore permanently cripples Kitsunoh in this example, and Tailwind means basically any one of CAP24's teammates can switch-in and beat Kitsunoh without necessarily being fast. The defensive counterplay is already a little thin with CAP24, so I think leaving offensive counterplay some room to breathe is warranted.
Terrain Moves
I'm not too confident that these moves will be used often, but I think all of them really have a very niche use. Misty Terrain blocks status like burn on common Sand abusers, Electric Terrain gives CAP24 some useful coverage with Nature Power, and Psychic Terrain is even more of a "screw-you" to Ash-Greninja for Excadrill, so it's really down to flavor which one CAP24 gets imo.
Light Screen
I do like the utility move. Considering that it makes it easier to stomach hits from Tomohawk and Mega Latios, which we were having a little bit of trouble doing otherwise.
0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 176-210 (45.3 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu through Light Screen: 88-105 (22.6 - 27%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Latios-Mega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu through Light Screen: 83-98 (21.3 - 25.2%) -- 99.2% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Latios-Mega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 166-196 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It sounds fun to pair with Mega Tyranitar, who already has a lot of special bulk.
Leaf Storm
One notable thing about Leaf Storm is that it's the most powerful move that hits Landorus-T besides Hidden Power Ice, which for Sand-based sets is pretty nice:
0 SpA Tapu Bulu Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 204-240 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tapu Bulu Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 306-361 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- not a KO
0 SpA Tapu Bulu Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 148-175 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It gets more defensively inclined Sand sets some more immediate power, but in terms of damage, Moonblast is still pretty hefty. What I'm interested in is if people would use Solar Beam or Leaf Storm on Sun-based sets. Solar Beam is pretty unique for this concept, given that we have good Special Attack and Drought. For one, the Grassium Z set doesn't work as intended with Leaf Storm for Toxapex, because the lure is hitting with the base move, then KOing it with the Z move. It does enable Sun sets to have a significantly easier time beating Hippowdon though, as none of the moves that CAP24 will presumably have access to will defeat Hippowdon, except for Grass-type STAB moves not named Solar Beam.
What's hard for me to find is a really good reason to want to run Leaf Storm, and maybe this is where other people are struggling as well, but with Moonblast, Leaf Storm just isn't that useful. Anything that gets socked by Grass-type moves generally gets socked by Moonblast as well, with a few exceptions like Toxapex, Arghonaut (if CAP24 is not invested in SpA because of Unaware), Unaware Clefable (also because of Unaware), and Volkraken.
0 SpA Tapu Bulu Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 276-325 (70 - 82.4%) -- not a KO
0 SpA Tapu Bulu Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- 40.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Bulu Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 335-397 (85 - 100.7%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tapu Bulu Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arghonaut: 364-434 (87.9 - 104.8%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Tapu Bulu Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arghonaut: 180-212 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Bulu Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arghonaut: 446-526 (107.7 - 127%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
0 SpA Tapu Bulu Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volkraken: 169-199 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Bulu Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volkraken: 75-89 (21.9 - 26%) -- 4.3% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Tapu Bulu Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volkraken: 205-243 (59.9 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
More than anything it generally just gets outclassed by Moonblast, but in some circumstances it does things Solar Beam cannot. I'm honestly not sure what to think about this move.
Fire-type Coverage / Weather Ball / Hazard Control
I feel like I've been pretty vocal about what I think on these subjects, but I do like reach's analysis on Overheat vs. Flamethrower. The counterplay to CAP24 was feeling quite limited, and despite an increase in power, it's a bit of a downgrade. Two-move coverage is significantly harder to run when Overheat and Focus Blast are your other options for coverage alongside Moonblast because they aren't very consistent moves. Weather Ball fixes this for Sun though, which reach excluded from his post. I definitely think whether or not we want a consistent two-move utility set for sand is something to consider before we start picking moves based on power. I'm not saying Moonblast / Overheat is impossible to run, but is it still a viable set, especially with lowered Special Attack investment?
As for hazard control, I'm interested in what other people think about it. Not too many people have really discussed it, but it seems like something for everyone to pitch in about, given that we still haven't come to a conclusion about it.
Somewhere along the line Healing Wish got dropped from Choice Scarf, but that's where I think Healing Wish will be the best. Also, Modest Scarf won't work because you can't outspeed Scarf Tapu Lele and Scarf Volkraken.
This is probably where Light Screen would fit best, just to get an idea of where it would fit in on an actual moveset.
Other notes:
Honestly not sure where Leaf Storm would fit in. Maybe it needs a new set to fit somewhere correctly?
Defog would slot into Move 3 of the Utility set and maybe slashed somewhere on the Drought set.
I could not find a small Special Attack benchmark that would make a difference on Overheat's damage output for the Utility Set, but I will continue looking.
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EDIT: I'm beginning to be a bit worried with how many things we can hit with our coverage, considering that we have high base power moves like Solar Beam, Moonblast, Focus Blast, Overheat, and Weather Ball (with Drought) being discussed. I'm thinking it might just be better to work off of Hidden Power Fire so that CAP24 doesn't screw the entire metagame into non-existence. It's just CAP24 is so strong that in a vacuum it might look managable, but considering that it sets Sun for 5 other teammates, CAP24 is doing a lot.
Light Screen seems like a good utility tool to give to CAP. It doesn’t mess with checks too much, as with a good portion of our checks, either they use Poison moves, are passive or are Physical. It would also allow more power investment while having bulk on a set like this:
A set like this could be a very interesting set for CAP to run. While I am uncertain as to the power of such a set, I believe it shows a good example as to why Light Screen could be a good idea.
The Trace set needing to threaten Celesteela without giving the Drought set a means of outright beating Charizard-Y essentially mandates that we have a Fire attack of some kind that is not Weather Ball. Overheat is the best and most balanced option in that it grants more initial power than Flamethrower, while giving the opponent more counterplay in the form of switches to Pokemon that win an Overheat + Moonblast sequence, which would otherwise lose a Flamethrower + Moonblast sequence.
I don't understand this at all. How does Weather Ball give CAP 24 a means of beating Mega Charizard Y? Especially in context to the Drought set as you stated? With the allowed coverage and moves, CAP 24 cannot beat Mega Charizard, with SR up unless it uses a Z-Move. Weather Ball will always be Fire typed, and unless we are running Bulky Sandstorm sets on Drought based sets, there is no way it can be Mega Charizard Y with Weather Ball.
I don't understand this at all. How does Weather Ball give CAP 24 a means of beating Mega Charizard Y? Especially in context to the Drought set as you stated? With the allowed coverage and moves, CAP 24 cannot beat Mega Charizard, with SR up unless it uses a Z-Move. Weather Ball will always be Fire typed, and unless we are running Bulky Sandstorm sets on Drought based sets, there is no way it can be Mega Charizard Y with Weather Ball.
My sentence was alluding to the fact that Electric coverage is untenable because Charizard-Y must remain a counter, especially for Drought. Sand Weather Ball could snipe Charizard-Y before it transforms, but Drought doesn't have that luxury. Since Electric coverage can't happen, Fire coverage is a necessity.
I honestly don't see the arguments about weather ball. Flavour may not be part of movepool, but Concept is and there is very little argument on how Weather Ball does not abuse a weather when it uses it to get a big boost to BP and change types. Therefore, it's an extremely relevant move in consideration which fulfills everything we need from a fire move and is extremely thematically fitting/concept appropriate.
It also gives a form of Rock-type coverage through Rockball (Rev, I made that up in discord. I'm disappointed at that tm), and since Rock-type coverage was considered relevant enough to get a blanket coverage ban, it's certainly been deemed relevant enough by the community.
Furthermore, the fact that CAP will certainly have another fire option besides Weather Ball, be it Flamethrower or Overheat, means that the disparity that TK seems to fear Weather Ball will create is actually not that relevant. Weather Ball and Flamethrower aren't too different in terms of power (in my opinion) since Flamethrower carries a burn chance to make up for the lower BP. Both get boosted in sun so really the comparison with or without Weather Ball remains equally uneven whether we have Weather Ball or not. And if we have Overheat, then Sandtree has a higher-firepower option to close the gap with boosted Weather Ball in terms of Droughtree's output.
It's a theme and concept-fitting move that does everything we need from a fire option, gives an additional niche coverage option, and does not upset the balance of power between the sets in any major way. There's no reason to be questioning whether we need it because it's not about whether we need it or not, it's about weather ball fulfilling being a very usable/slashable move in any Drought moveset while also being incredibly concept-friendly.
So yeah, I believe it should be required. Give the sets whatever other fire move you want alongside it, but it fits CAP24 too well to not have it.
I'm not sure about Overheat, but I can't see harm in putting it in. It gives sand a higher output option at a tradeoff. I'm not sure about not having flamethrower, though admittedly the presence of such a bread-and-butter fire move could push CAP24 over the line. However, the lack of flamethrower would hurt Sandtree enough that I think it warrants keeping it to smooth down the balance of power between sets.
Is Spore something to be considered? We are already countered pretty hard or at least resisted by the relevant Grass types outside of Malanconda. Between saying no priority, and no boosting, and the Sleep Clause I do not think it would be too overpowering: especially with being further walled by most Poison and Steel types.
It allows us that catch all way of managing any of Celesteela, Heatran, Ash Greninja (when Scarf) et al, allowing safe switches elsehwere. It would support a Trace Set very well without needing raw power from its moves.
Leaf Storm: about our threatlist only Landorus-T is directly affected by this movewith a direct OHKO even without the rocks, outside of this, there are other walls that will suffer even more this move:
252 SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 228 SpD Pelipper: 229-270 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 228 SpD Pelipper: 312-367 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 44+ SpD Tapu Fini: 252-296 (73.4 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 44+ SpD Tapu Fini: 432-510 (125.9 - 148.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arghonaut: 324-384 (78.2 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arghonaut: 444-524 (107.2 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Colossoil: 392-464 (83.4 - 98.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Colossoil: 540-636 (114.8 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volkraken: 178-210 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volkraken: 307-363 (89.7 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Naviathan: 438-516 (106.8 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (you can avoid to use Focus Blast that can miss)
Fire coverage: without this, all the Steel types that we need to threat (bar Heatran) will be able to deal with us more easily
Weather Ball: the only problem with this move is that, with Z-Sandstorm can beat on the switch Char-Y and Pyroak, but this combo is so niche since it can be done only once and needs that they will enter exactly in that moment
Hazard removal: as revi said, it will be very useful for its teammates that suffer hazards, especially Volkraken and Char-Y
Stun Spore: this will permanently cripple Char-Y and Toxapex, so we should avoid this
Terrain moves: wasting a moveslot and a turn to remove a problem for Excadrill seems fine. Also in case of multiple switches, Bulu can reset it instantly
Tailwind: I'm against it because this move will make the Sun breakers very hard to check forcing the opponent to use specific walls or 110+ speed scarfers
Light Screen: I don't see particular problems with this, most of CAP24 checks use brute force with high SpA or 4x Poison moves, or are physical attacker
Fire coverage
We absolutely need fire coverage. With setup basically being canned (aside from Rototiller memes lmao), we need this to beat Celesteela. I think that the ideal way to go about it is Flamethrower + Weather Ball. Heat Wave as our native move seems weird. The difference in accuracy is an unneeded annoyance that hurts Sand sets for absolutely no reason. Heat Wave is cool flavor, but has absolutely no good reason to be picked over Flamethrower.
Weather Ball
While I completely understand that it may not be needed, Weather Ball causes no harm. After thinking about it, while Weather Ball isn’t in practice worth running aside from Rock Ball (tm) in Sand, I see no reason to ban it. At this point, we should just require Flamethrower and leave Weather Ball up to the people who submit flavor movepools.
Hazard Control
Honestly, Defog is what I’m liking. While I’m certain CAP could live without Defog, I think the benefit it provides to Sun teams (and non-weather teams, which is something we wanted to do in concept assesment) is big enough to where it would be significant enough to warrant giving Defog. CAP at the moment has very little utility overall, and I feel that that fact could harm our viability out of weather teams. As such, Defog is useful in weather and out of it, and I sincerely hope we get Defog.
Terrain Moves
I honestly don’t think we need these, and it doesn’t do much to help, unlike Defog. I don’t care what happens to these.
While Heat Wave isn't a priority for CAP 24, I feel like it should be included anyway just in case it could be useful for Doubles.
On the other hand, having Fire Pledge doesn't offer too much benefit for CAP 24, even in Doubles. Definitely something that should be skipped over.
CAP 24 definitely would have benefit from having Light Screen as most Fire-type and Ice-type moves are special while supporting its teammate with it.
As for terrain moves, I will say that Grassy Terrain and Misty Terrain aren't crucial for CAP 24. For the former, there's Tapu Bulu. For the latter, Safeguard can accomplish the status prevention role with the added benefit of not restricting to just grounded Pokemon and the power reduction from Dragon-type attack isn't important.
On Hazard Removal and A Screen (Whatever it may be, this thing doesn't have the movepool freedom to run double screens):
I was talking with Reach and Snake yesterday and we were fairly worried about CAP24 becoming an incredible glue 'mon for any team if it has easy access to hazard removal. It's already going to command incredible offensive pressure through STAB Moonblast and Drought fire coverage alone, and the addition of something like Defog/Spin would give it fantastic role compression as well. The screen is more in a "Wow, this tree is suddenly very hard to deal with" fashion, and Trace can also create some very interesting match-ups for CAP to abuse. There's some fear of it potentially causing a ReflectHawk situation.
On Hazard Removal and A Screen (Whatever it may be, this thing doesn't have the movepool freedom to run double screens):
I was talking with Reach and Snake yesterday and we were fairly worried about CAP24 becoming an incredible glue 'mon for any team if it has easy access to hazard removal. It's already going to command incredible offensive pressure through STAB Moonblast and Drought fire coverage alone, and the addition of something like Defog/Spin would give it fantastic role compression as well. The screen is more in a "Wow, this tree is suddenly very hard to deal with" fashion, and Trace can also create some very interesting match-ups for CAP to abuse. There's some fear of it potentially causing a ReflectHawk situation.
ReflectHawk was an issue because Roost had priority. Anything faster than CAP can overcome it, and if the strategy to re-make ReflectHawk is switching into Tomo for the Trace you're already braving Air Slash for it. Though I suppose at that point you do actually win. I don't believe we've ever complained about a mon that reduces Tomohawk's viability, though. Especially since in this case it's turning the tables on Hawk in a pretty poetic fashion.
I've already said my piece about everything in this thread. I like Overheat + Weather Ball as our Fire coverage option (though I do like Fire Pledge too to round it out but it's been panned. I don't think it should be disallowed but it's almost impossible to discuss it with Flamethrower in consideration)
Stun Spore is the most balanced form of Speed Control available. I brought up Tailwind initially but if I had to choose one, it would be Stun Spore. Light Screen is cool, and the kind of team support both Sand and Sun could use.
I've waffled a bit on Hazard Control.
On the one hand, Excadrill would really like to be able to drop Rapid Spin to always run Swords Dance. In that regard I would greatly prefer CAP get Rapid Spin as Rapid Spin can be blocked, Kitsunoh is a good blocker of the Sand Set, and Kitsunoh loses to Excadrill and Tyranitar but sometimes burns them in the process. Defog seems too reliable a hazard remover to me and none of CAPs Sand or Sun teammates really want their own hazards removed.
Rapid Spin also frees up a slot on sun for Malaconda to always be able to run both Glare and Knock Off on its more durable Harvest set, so Rapid Spin really is the most fitting option for our weather partners. Basically, Rapid Spin absolves Excadrill on Sand and Malaconda on Sun of that role, allowing them to run the sets they really want to run.
Leaf Storm I haven't weighed in on, but it doesn't beat anything much more than Giga Drain or Moonblast already did, and it gives Sand CAP a n immediately powerful Grass STAB that can match Solar Beam so I'm leaning to support.
Terrain Moves: I don't think they're viable enough to compete on a utility set, that said Misty Terrain is probably the best because it can erase the Grassy Terrain that weakens Excadrill's Earthquake, it sets up a Safeguard effect for Sand and parts of Sun, and also stops Koko and Lele from utilizing boosted Electric or Psychic Terrain.
As long as we're mentioning terrain, I think Nature Power should not be allowed after thinking about it because it incentivizes use with Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele a little too heavily, and doesn't need an option to nail Flying or Poison counters with different partners than Sun or Sand would use. It's too bad because Nature Power is a pretty nifty flavor addition given our CAP's design and concept, but competitive concerns take precedent.
I don't mean remake ReflectHawk. I was more using it as an example of a Pokemon that becomes considerably more powerful through a screen since said screen allows it to resist a lot more damage than expected. It could even get a similar system going through the use of Giga Drain.
Regardless of that fact, though, I feel like Screens on CAP24 may be the result of too much focus in role compression that may cause CAP24 to be bloated with choices and be too effective as a swiss army tree that fits in every team. We don't want to slap Tomo by making another Tomo.
I'd like to address some moves that are controversial for one reason or another.
Hazard Removal
The CAP metagame is in really good shape in terms of hazard removal; Tomohawk, Colossoil, Landorus-Therian, Tornadus-Therian, even Tapu Koko all provide acceptable hazard removal already. I don't think hazard removal is really needed on CAP 24, though giving it hazard removal would put its role compression over the moon. I don't think it needs to be disallowed, but it definitely should not be required.
Light Screen
I'm a little hesitant to include this because there just aren't that many Pokemon with both Light Screen and reliable recovery; with Light Sceen up, CAP 24 survives all sorts of crazy things--with just max HP, Plasmanta needs a boosting item to OHKO it with Sludge Wave! That being said, running Light Screen would be not running any of a number of other killer options, and as others have noted, CAP 24 is not fast enough to pull off shenanigans to the degree that Reflect Tomohawk could. I think this would not be unacceptable.
Sleep moves
Electric Terrain nerfs this hard, but if Tapu Koko isn't in play, having a Sleep move turns our counter list on its head big time, and no new candidates emerge. I am very much against this.
Moonblast is our standard, spammable STAB. Overheat is our Fire coverage of choice, for reasons I explained in an earlier post.
Wish is the centerpiece of the set, allowing CAP 24 to be an absolute godsend to Tyranitar and Excadrill by giving them rather substantial Wishes. Retains considerable offensive presence, unlike many other Wish passers which tend toward being rather passive.
Shore Up is what CAP 24 uses to heal itself, playing its usual tanky function.
Wish is my #1 my desired move for Sand--Tyranitar has a lot of defensive utility, but is limited by its lack of recovery, which makes it an imperfect solution to Pokemon such as Lati@s and Heatran--CAP 24 solves this issue by feeding it Wishes against the likes of Charizard-Y and Plasmanta. Likewise, it can pass Wish to Excadrill to take an attack from Mega Crucibelle. Wish is incredibly useful for Sand in particular, and Wish has little chance of breaking CAP 24 in any way.
Ever since mxmts removed explicit Fire-type coverage from the movesets I took a step back and started to wonder what actually switches in and beats CAP24. I'm all for following a threatlist, but when we have Pokemon who has 66% recovery moves, Healing Wish, Moonblast, Focus Blast, and Solar Beam...I'm not sure if powerful Fire-type coverage is healthy at this point. I'm saying Flamethrower, Weather Ball, and Overheat.
This is pretty much a reversal of my previous arguments, but I'm taking a hard stance for metagame balance. Pun definitely intended when I say that discussion has been running too hot. Is CAP24 manageable on it's own with powerful Fire-type coverage? I'd say certainly. The problem is when you add in Drought. When CAP24 has 5 other teammates, also with boosted Fire-type coverage, that's when I'm starting to think "whoa...CAP24 actually is doing way too much for the metagame's good." We have a few counters, but they're just not that good at being counters. Chansey obviously counters CAP24, but do we really expect everything to run Chansey for the sake of countering this one Pokemon? Then there are Pyroak and Mega Venusaur, who definitely wall CAP24 in a perfect scenario, but start to fall apart when they just take damage over the fight:
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak in Sun: 143-169 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
That looks nice, and they have reliable recovery, but they get worn down during a match. If Pyroak gets worn down to a mere 83.1% damage, it'll Stealth Rock damage (25%), take Flamethrower damage upon switch-in, heal with leftovers, and then get outsped for more Flamethrower damage. Assuming min rolls:
83.1% - 25% - 32.2% + 6.25% - 32.2% = 0% -> It's easy to knock Pyroak down to 83% just over a battle. Then it wants to switch into CAP24 and it's roasted away.
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega in Sun: 127-151 (34.9 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Venusaur seems like it has it a bit easier than Pyroak, but it doesn't have Leftovers recovery.
82.3% - 12.5% - 34.9% - 34.9% = 0% -> the same scenario with Pyroak. Knock it down to 82% and it can't reliably switch in.
Mega Charizard Y is a bit of silly counter too. For one it takes 50% damage from Stealth Rock. For two, how many Mega Charizard Y will be run when you have Drought CAP24? Consider if Stealth Rock is up:
Turn 1:
Zard Y sits at 51% at this point.
CAP24's turn: 252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 87-103 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Now Zard Y is at 21% maximum, maybe 15% depending on the rolls.
Turn 2a:
Assume CAP24 is forced out and Mega Charizard Y has a free turn to heal with Roost.
Zard Y is at 65% - 71%
Whatever switches into Mega Charizard Y should pretty much force out Charizard Y, and now Mega Charizard Y dies to the Turn 1 scenario.
Turn 2b:
Assume CAP24 is forced out but Mega Charizard Y uses its free turn to use a Fire-type attack.
Now Mega Charizard Y will die to the next round of rocks damage.
I'm not saying it's impossible for Mega Charizard Y's teammates to get rid of Stealth Rock, but it's not a very good counter.
Basically, with Flamethrower, Pyroak and Mega Venusaur are not reliable counters at all, Mega Charizard Y is not reliable at all either, and Chansey is just Chansey, which doesn't fit on every team archetype. However, Flamethrower just rocks everything else in the metagame in combination with the coverage we already have. Also, Weather Ball and Overheat are more powerful than Flamethrower, which means that even though they might be slightly less consistent than Flamethrower, in the grand scheme of things, they still cause problems just by hitting other Pokemon in the metagame really hard.
I want to propose Flame Burst as our new Fire-type move of choice. That might seem odd that I'm going past Fire Pledge, but I'm also going to propose that AV Magearna should at least soft-check CAP24 in Sun. It's one of the best special pivots in the metagame; I think that's fair. Let's look at the damage:
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Sun: 164-195 (45.1 - 53.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Fire Pledge vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Sun: 146-174 (40.2 - 47.9%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Flame Burst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Sun: 127-151 (34.9 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Sun: 112-133 (30.8 - 36.6%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (for reference)
I think Flame Burst is a nice place to hit for those who want Fire-type coverage on CAP24 without being overwhelming to the metagame as a whole. Dropping down to Hidden Power Fire is also an option if Flame Burst is deemed too powerful.
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Flame Burst vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega in Sun: 101-120 (27.8 - 33%) -- 84.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Flame Burst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak in Sun: 112-133 (25.2 - 30%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The other side of the coin is that we need Fire-type coverage for Celesteela on non-Drought sets, but if breaking everything in the metagame is the cost of breaking through Celesteela, I don't want to go near that solution.
0 SpA Tapu Bulu Flame Burst vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 104-124 (26.1 - 31.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Tapu Bulu Flame Burst vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 138-164 (34.7 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
At least with Flame Burst you're doing solid chip damage to Celesteela, while you can stomach its hits and heal them off with Shore Up.
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Of course, this means Flamethrower, Weather Ball, and Overheat have to be axed, but in the interest of CAP24 not murdering everything in the metagame, I think it's fair. Additionally, we were scared of basic utility options because CAP24 would be having really powerful attacking options, but I believe it might be easier to consider those options if we scale back the Fire-type coverage. I know this is a radical change to CAP24's movesets, but I believe this will end with a more successful project. We learn more from projects that are more balanced, and scaling back Fire-type coverage is imperative to pulling CAP24 towards a balanced state.
edit: I'm just editing this post to state, quite clearly, that I support a general ban on Flamethrower, Overheat, Weather Ball, and Heat Wave, after reading Snake's post above.
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If we decide to opt against Big Fire Moves(tm), then I'd like to propose Mystical Fire as the move of choice on that front, rather than Flame Burst. At very least, so we don't automatically lock ourselves back too far, whilst providing utility that is very valuable, in particular to the Sand sets.
First of all, it fits the metric that justifies Flame Burst over Fire Pledge: Letting AV Magearna Check us.
252 SpA Life Orb Shiinotic Mystical Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Sun: 138-164 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
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Secondly, it improves the matchup with Celesteela. Flame Burst can never 2HKO after Steela after it heals from Lefties behind a Protect (6 HP left minimum), leaving us tanking a pair of Celesteela Flamethrowers, which is something that Mystical Fire isn't troubled by. Mystical Fire also improves our general bulk in the matchup;
0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Shiinotic: 134-158 (41.1 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Shiinotic: 90-106 (27.6 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
41.1-48.4% is going to have us using Shore Up / Synthesis an awful lot whilst it recovers through it's Leftovers, especially on sets using Life Orb. This doesn't quite feel like a matchup where we Pressure/Threaten Celesteela otherwise - Flame Burst just feels like it's going to be a smidgen under for our Trace sets.
252 SpA Life Orb Shiinotic Flame Burst vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 164-195 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Shiinotic Mystical Fire vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 177-208 (44.5 - 52.3%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Shiinotic Mystical Fire vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 136-160 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (40.5% without Rocks)
252 SpA Shiinotic Flame Burst vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 126-150 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 93.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (0.3% without Rocks)
4 SpA Shiinotic Mystical Fire vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 112-132 (28.2 - 33.2%) -- 90.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Shiinotic Flame Burst vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 104-124 (26.1 - 31.2%) -- 12.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
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Thirdly, it's not a move that lets us break counters (as slightly disruptive as it is). Chansey naturally doesn't care, but as for the other three:
Charizard-Y:
-1 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Shiinotic in Sun: 336-396 (103 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Even if it swithes into Mystical Fire, it's going to OHKO us.
Venusaur-Mega:
-1 0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Shiinotic: 300-352 (92 - 107.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
-2 0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Shiinotic: 228-268 (69.9 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-3 0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Shiinotic: 180-216 (55.2 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If it switches into something like Moonblast, then we're forced out. If it switches into MF, then it's still a very clean 2HKO.
Our strongest option is Drought Mystical Fire, doing an overwhelming...
252 SpA Life Orb Shiinotic Mystical Fire vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega in Sun: 107-127 (29.4 - 34.9%) -- 14% chance to 3HKO
... occasional 3HKO, not exactly breakin' backs. Out of sun, that's scoring a 5HKO.
Pyroak:
Pyroak becomes a slightly... weird matchup, but one that it beats us in for the Drought Matchup (or, at very least, forces us out by sponging all the Sun turns).
252 SpA Life Orb Shiinotic Mystical Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak in Sun: 120-142 (27 - 32%) -- 44.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Shiinotic Flame Burst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak in Sun: 112-133 (25.2 - 30%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mystical Fire is not particularly capable of breaking through Pyroak - whilst previous chip damage makes Pyroak a slightly shaky counter, the same can be said for pretty much any Fire Type coverage (Or the fear inducing HIDDEN POWER ROCK), and Pyroak can easily heal off damage dealt to us. It can then force us out, either by virtue of Sun running out, or by virtue of landing a critical hit with Lava Plume (which OHKOs in Sun), or use us to get Rocks up. Either way, CAP24 becomes locked into doing something that it would rather not be.
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Beyond that, Mystical Fire doesn't mess with our checks hugely. A substantial number of our checks are just faster than us, with Mollux being the notable slower check, usually OHKOing us at -1 (Assuming that it's not scarfed to beat us anyway)
-1 0 SpA Mollux Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Shiinotic: 316-376 (96.9 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Giving our Fire Option the ability to be useful beyond "nabbing weird KOs" I think is something genuinely useful. For instance, it can help 252 HP sets deal with offensive Tomohawk, preventing them from KOing through Hurricane;
4 SpA Shiinotic Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Shiinotic Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 79-93 (22.5 - 26.4%) -- 18.8% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Tomohawk Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shiinotic: 455-538 (117.2 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ SpA Life Orb Tomohawk Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shiinotic: 304-359 (78.3 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So yeah. I might add to this tomorrow when it's not 2:30 Am and I'm not addled on painkillers, but I think immediately hopping to Flame Burst is something that we should question (at least a little bit).
I disagree with the calcs that purport to show that Flamethrower is too powerful. It does not 2HKO Pyroak or Mega Venusaur. All you're showing is that Flamethrower 2HKOs Pyroak if it happens to be at 58% health. I think you'll find a lot of moves 2HKO a lot of things if you make such a drastic asssumption that the enemy is switching directly into your most effective move against it, while having 58% health. Under these conditions Focus Blast 2HKOs Chansey, for example.
I'd be a little more prepared to accept such arguments regarding sand teams because those actually have chip damage incarnate on the team in the form of Pursuit + Sand Stream Tyranitar. The Flamethrower calcs use Drought, however.
I wholeheartedly agree with Dogfish about having Mystical Fire as our coverage option. The only Pokemon I could see having an iffy effect with is Volcarona, but even then, it can just Quiver Dance and get SpDef boosts.
-1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 240-284 (73.8 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 99-117 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO
Mystical Fire still OHKOs Cawmodore, a Pokemon we want to threaten.
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Mystical Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore: 263-309 (108.6 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If Mega Mawile comes in on any attacking move, it will always die to Mystical Fire, therefore being "threatened", but with perfect prediction it could come in and KO with Iron Head
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Mystical Fire vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 216-255 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 510-600 (156.9 - 184.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Blacephelon can't OHKO us coming in on a Mystical Fire with its Choice Scarf set unless Mind Blown, and Choice specs still destroys us. However, we can't really hit it back unless it's taken a lot of chip damage
-1 252 SpA Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 260-308 (80 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Bulu Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Blacephalon: 118-140 (47.7 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO
I'm sure between Dogfish and my calculations that you can see that mystical fire doesn't mess with our checks/counters that much, while still dealing with stuff we want to counter
Well, there are only a few hours left before the end of discussion, and it seems that we are still not quite sure of what kind of Fire coverage should CAP 24 get. The discussion has been quite fluctuating, and it seems that no option will be able to reach a consensus, for this reason I am heavily considering sending this to a poll. Personally I don't see Fire coverage as something that this project needs, even if this means worsening our match-up against Celesteela, as it should not be able to 2HKO us, so with Shore Up, we should still be able to win in the long run. On the other hand, Sun teams never had any problems with Steela, so having Drought sets lose 1v1 against it is not a huge loss. Now for a more detailed list of our candidates:
Weather Ball/Flamethrower/Heat Wave: At first this seemed like a very well received move, but lately its support has started to fade, and its flaws have become more obvious. For starters, while being a weather-dependent move makes it somewhat unreliable at times, it also heavily favors Sun over, the one weather that we agreed at the start of the thread that needed the most help, as there, this move turns into Rock-type, making it much less useful. While Flamethrower/Heat Wave don't have this problem, they still gives us a massive (and arguably unnecessary) power boost, by letting us have a powerful spammable Fire move, which would nail most Steel types that usually deal with other Fairy-Types. It is important to remember that the call for Fire coverage originally came from our need to beat Celesteela, which is not really a relevant threat to Sun teams. Overall, I'm quite skeptical of our need for such strong coverage. However, because of the huge support they gathered, specially earlier in the discussion, I'm hesitant to ban them, at least for now. If you think you have arguments in favor of this moves this would be a great time to post them.
Overheat: This was proposed as a much more high risk/high reward alternative to other powerful coverage , that has the advantage of having a much more clear counterplay as one would not be able to freely spam it without consequences. However, I don't really buy that this is really much of a downgrade from Flamethrower. While it is true that almost no Fire mon uses this move, this is not because they prefer Flamethrower, it is because they have access to Fire Blast. Not only that, but as snake has said, over two turns, Overheat is more powerful that Flamethrower, and for this same reason Dragon types usually prefer Draco Meteor instead of Dragon Pulse. This doesn't even account for Z-Moves, which would allow CAP 24 to have access to a 195 BP Nuke, while being able to avoid the SpA drop for one crucial turn. All in all, I think that if played correctly this would be clearly the most powerful choice, and I find the idea of using this as a "downgrade" from Flamethrower to be just not true in practice.
Flame Burst: The most recent proposal, I think that this move seems like one of the better choices, as it provides an alternative to HP Fire, while still giving our counters much more breathing room than Flamethrower. However, given that this move sits at a mere 70 BP, I think that we should also seriously ask, is it really worth it over HP Fire? In its post in favor of this move, snake_rattler posted a lot of great calcs, but I noted that while he may have explained how Flame Burst makes Pyroak and M-Venusaur much more consistent answers to CAP 24, he failed to show when this move would make the difference against relevant threats. It is also important to note that other Hidden Power types have been almost completely absent from most sets discussed so far, so having to run HP Fire would not be a huge loss.
Mystical Fire/Fire Pledge: These moves try to give us a middle ground between Flamethrower and Flame Burst. However I don't really find this idea very attractive, because again, we don't really need that much power to beat Celesteela with Trace sets, as those should be running more bulky EVs, which means that they should be able to tank its attacks more comfortably than what Dogfish calcs suggest, so even with only HP Fire, CAP 24 should be able to 1v1 Steela. Not only that, but there no reason to give CAP 24 a move like Mystical Fire that could cause it to be significantly harder to deal with. If we are nerfing its coverage, we should always try to default to the weakest moves available, and this moves looks gratuitous to me.
I will post more stuff about other issues like Defog later.
EDIT: And we're back
And we're back:
-Defog: After all this talk about Fire coverage, I feel that we lost sight of what utility options should CAP 24 have at its disposal. I must admit, I really don't see this move as a necessity for us to have, but it can provide us with some useful role compression, and it is certainly not going to break CAP 24. At this moment, I'm considering sending Defog to a poll.
-Light Screen: Mostly a niche option, some people have objected that this could being like Reflect Tomohawk. However, as other have pointed out, we don't have access to Prankster, making this move significantly less powerful that when used by Tomo. As most people have not raised any other objections to this, I'm considering adding it to the required move list
-Tailwind/Stun Spore: While originally we were supposed to provide speed control for Sun Team, I think that ship sailed the moment we gave CAP 24, making this playstyle no longer dependent on a mediocre setter like Malaconda. Therefore, at this moment I'm inclining towards banning these moves.
-Leaf Storm: While I'm not a huge fan of this move, I think that there is a clear ICC in favor of it, so I'm inclining toward adding it to the list of required moves.
Now, here's one last move that I forgot to discuss:
Nature Power: Thanks to the Surge abilities, this move has gained a lot of viability in Gen 7, as it allows its users to have access to moves they wouldn't be able to use normally. In CAP case the most notable moves we could use would be Thunderbolt when paired with Tapu Koko and Psychic, when paired with Tapu Lele. I think that the latter could be seen as an issue, as it would let us break the Poison-Types that are supposed to check us. Personally, I don't see this as a problem, as I believe it will usually be outclassed by other more reliable options like Focus Blast and whatever Fire coverage we end up having. However, I'd like to ask everyone what do they think about this move, so we can safely address it before the end of this thread.
There are 24 hours left for discussion, if for some reason you think you need some more, feel free to ask for an extension.
I think if we give it Defog and/or Light Screen we risk it having far too much utility, even if we go with Flame Burst (imo, the guaranteed -1 from Mystical Flame makes it too detrimental to its counters in the long run to consider). I would rather err on the side of caution rather than make BaoCAP an Extreme Role Compression 'mon.
I’m torn on Nature Power. On the one hand, it’s rather unreliable due to requiring a Tapu to work and with how popular they are, it could be changed in an instant. However, it breaks through checks and counters like Toxapex and Mollux. Also, while Nature Power requires coming in, the bulk we have makes that pretty easy. Also, Koko has pivoting anyway, making it even easier to come in. As such, I think it would be better to play it safe and ban Nature Power.
Mid/low power Fire coverage: While i could understand your fears of overwhelm our counters, we still need of a decent amount of power to pressure Steel types on bulkier sets for the Sand team and since Mawile can shoot a powerful Play Rough and Celesteela can stall out the sand turns with Protect.
I prefer Fire Pledge since it stands perfectly in the middle, but I don't think we can allow this, since only the Fire types (and Smeargle), can use this
Overheat: This move denies, with rocks or enough chip damage, most of our counters:
252 SpA Abomasnow Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak in Sun: 238-280 (53.7 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Abomasnow Overheat vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak in Sun: 158-187 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Abomasnow Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 136-161 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO (this will force it to use Roost, allowing us to safely switch into something else)
252+ SpA Abomasnow Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 154-182 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Abomasnow Overheat vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 102-122 (28 - 33.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO (add rocks and some chip and you're done)
Nature Power: With the right Tapu, we can beat Char-Y and Venusaur in Sand:
252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Nature Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Electric Terrain: 330-390 (111.1 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Abomasnow Nature Power vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 162-192 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Also, Lele negates priority that should be a way to stop CAP24, especially Bullet Punch that deals heavy damage to most of the sand abusers (Tyranitar and CAP24 itself)
Fire Coverage:
While Weather Ball would be cool, and fit very well into CAP 24's concept, I think I'll have to agree with the consensus that we don't need it, and it would just buff Sun. I would vote to ban Weather Ball.
Similarly, while fire coverage would be icing on the CAP 24 cake, it already has powerful coverage options, reliable instant recovery and great speed and SpA. It's enough to handle everything we would like it to and adding more threatens to push past our checks and counters. The discussion over Flamethrower v. Heat Wave v. Overheat seems really silly. At the beginning of this discussion I was totally in favor of requiring Flamethrower, I now don't see a need for any fire moves at all - barring HP Fire - given how many things CAP 24 has going for it.
Leaf Storm should be added, if only for continuity. Grass STAB isn't all that good for the purposes of Sun and Sand, and CAP24 has better options. Leaf Storm won't rock the boat.
Nature Power is less reliable coverage, but offers coverage that we've already considered to be OP - Psychic coverage, Electric coverage. We don't need these. Even though it's more niche, it gives players options that break the threat list and heavily incentivize pairing with Tapus (which already has a lot of advantages). I think Nature Power should be banned.
Light Screen would be nice. It would add some extra (temporary) bulk. But given CAP24's 4MSS now, i don't see how it would fit without sacrificing vital coverage or recovery. It's a nice option, I guess.
edit: removed Secret Power; not viable or worth discussing
Nature Power/Secret Power (lumping together because they're closely related) are less reliable coverage, but both offer various effects that we've already considered to be OP - reliable sleep, Psychic coverage, Electric coverage. We don't need these. Even though very niche, it gives options and gives players options that break the threat list and heavily incentivize pairing with Tapus (which already has a lot of advantages. I think they should be banned.
Secret Power is not the same as Nature Power. Secret Power changes its effect depending on the terrain but it always retains its Normal-type. Furthermore, it is a physical move whereas the moves called by Nature Power are all special moves.
Secret Power is not the same as Nature Power. Secret Power changes its effect depending on the terrain but it always retains its Normal-type. Furthermore, it is a physical move whereas the moves called by Nature Power are all special moves.
I realize they aren't the same - that why I said they're related. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. They both have differing effects in terrain, and could be used on a set to be paired with a Tapu to gain some new tricks - coverage for Nature Power, crippling status for Secret Power.
edit: ignore me; I did some more research and it's not even niche viable. I'll remove it.
