CAP 24 CAP 24 - Part 9 - Moveset Discussion

[Dogfish44]

Nature Power is perfectly fine if we decide to just lock in Misty Terrain. "Can counter with a niche set whilst having a given teammate" roughly translates, in my mind, to "not actually countering anything", especially when you can disrupt such a set by switching in Tapu Fini, Bulu, or Lele (I think Koko is a smidgen lacking in bulk, but probably sufficient as well). The same would honestly apply, in my mind, if we do carry through the other terrains - "Counters after patently obvious setup" translates roughly to "Doesn't counter". I'd like it generally approved, at any rate.

Light Screen is good support. Speed Control negates our faster checks, which at the moment I feel is something to avoid (throwback to when Sun was going to be the speed control mon). Leaf Storm doesn't feel like it particularly adds anything, but I don't think it takes away from anything and Sand appreciates having the double-nuke option available.

Defog I think becomes something we should have if we don't have the strong Fire coverage, as to work well in conjunction with the Sun Core we will be supporting.

Mystical Fire I'm going to re-iterate my support for.

Since it was raised, let's quickly look at a bulkier Trace set - 252 HP 4 SpA 252 Spe Timid seems to be a reasonable one.

0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shiinotic: 134-158 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- 51.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

We still end up a point where, whilst we heal off the damage Celesteela is doing to us, we aren't able to adequately respond beyond that. Indeed, if we end up going bulkier, that usually comes at the expense of our SpA;

4 SpA Shiinotic Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 90-106 (22.6 - 26.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Shiinotic Flame Burst vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 104-124 (26.1 - 31.2%) -- 12.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

I don't think these options provide Bulky CAP24 enough power to threaten Celesteela out (instead I think it provides the point where we stall through Shore Up's 16 PP).

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Edit (on phone at 2 AM): It’s kind of worth noting that I really don’t think that -1 SpA is *that* big a deal, especially to our check list, even if it’s very useful utility at the right power level that helps us find switches. And if it was, then we kind of need to realise that Moonblast (which i suspect will be the go to move to spam, not MF) has a 30% chance of the same effect - that’s the same chance as a scald burn (I’m pretty sure that if we ever built a mon that had a lot of physical counters we would never see Scald because of that 30%).

 

[koista12]

Overheat should definitely be a no go - Z Overheat in the sun absolutely nukes our counters and imo is far superior to flamethrower which in itself might be too much. CAP can easily throw out a Moonblast followed by either Z or regular Overheat into it's counters and doesn't lose much, as even if the opponent pivots out, both Pyroak and Msaur don't like taking the residual damage in combination with rocks.

I also like Mystical Fire - it's sufficiently powerful to deal with Celesteela on sand while also offering a less powerful Z move than Fire Pledge (and more flavorful). It's already been shown that with rocks up a SpA drop on CAPs checks don't affect it's matchups.

I support both Misty Terrain and Light Screen - I agree that Defog is likely a little much as far as role compression on sun, and in the abscence of Defog these moves offer support options in status protection and padding against stuff like Ash Greninja.

 

[Yay61]

I do like Mystical Fire for the way that it simplifies the celesteela matchup, but I think it gives a bit too much momentum to cap. The types we are weak to (fire flying ice poison) are mostly special attacking types, and with the ability to fire off special attack drops against these foes and switch out makes it a bit too easy to gather momentum for the team. For example: Volkraken switches in to cap on a mystical fire, and due to the special attack drop, cap can easily switchin to a pokemon to eat it easily and end up still coming out on top despite skill and counterplay from the opponent.

-1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volkraken Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 220 SpD Assault Vest Colossoil in Sun: 134-162 (32.9 - 39.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

(Not that relevant of an example, but this is an insult the lord Volkraken.)
This problem is magnified when you realise the same thing happens with mons like zardy and other special breakers that become momentum sinks for their own team after mystical fire.

 

[cbrevan]

From what I've read, support for Defog has been for it's ability to give CAP 24 great role compression. Role compression in general is a important aspect of any Pokemon, as it helps justify the use a teamslot, and allow a Pokemon to work on a greater number of team archetypes. However, I don't think role compression will be an issue for CAP 24. At the moment, CAP 24 already has a great deal of role compression by virtue of the number of Pokemon it can check reliably. Tapu Bulu is similiar in many respects to CAP 24 in what it can check, and is an amazing Pokemon in the metagame right now because of how well it compresses roles. Using Tapu Bulu as an example of an already splashable mon, and given the similarities between CAP 24 and Bulu, I doubt CAP 24 has a need for even great role compression.

This then leads to the other consideration for Defog- do Sun and Sand teams need hazard removal? Sand most likely does not, since one of the main cores of any Sand team would have the ability to run hazard removal on Excadrill. Excadrill aside, hazard remover isn't at such a premium in the metagame that I would say Sand needs CAP 24 as a defogger. Sun would have greater needs of hazard removal, but just like Sand, there are a number of hazard removers available to Sun. Furthermore, Sun will have a viable alternaive to setter aside from Charizhard Y, so assuming that Sun will be heavily pressured by Stealth Rock isn't an accurate assumption.

I think Defog on CAP 24 would drastically increase how splashable and role efficient the CAP would be, which combined with the slough of other favorable characteristics of the CAP, leads me to believe the move would be too much.

Nature Power seems like a pretty simple ban to me. It isn't hard to put Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele on a team, and that's all the support this move needs. Terrains already see use as a means to allow Pokemon to reach important 2HKOs and OHKOs, as well as enabling Terrain Seeds on Hawlucha. Tomohawk uses Nature Power in combination with a Tapu to allow it to revenge kill Pokemon such as Crucibelle, Greninjas, and Volkraken. What I'm getting at is that there is already precedence for terrain combos, and assuming Nature Power would be unreliable due to a dependence on terrain just isn't realistic. Running Scarf Lele or any Tapu Koko set with CAP 24 would be a straightforward way to completely cheese our counters.

252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Psychic vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 252-299 (69.4 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Nature Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Electric Terrain: 330-390 (111.1 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Nature Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 211-250 (69.6 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Don't forget that Terrains also boost the power of whatever move Nature Power turns in to, so even if we gave the CAP access to Thunderbolt and Psychic through regular mean, it wouldn't be far fetched to abuse the coverage with terrains.

Leaf Storm is pretty straightforward. It's worse than Solar Beam in the sun, has the same base power Bloom Doom, and also gives CAP 24 the option of a high powered Grass move outside of Drought. Most importantly, it allows CAP 24 to battle against other weathers more effectively, which is important for sun, especially versus Rain.

252 SpA Whimsicott Bloom Doom (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 228 SpD Pelipper: 312-367 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 228 SpD Pelipper: 270-320 (83.5 - 99%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 228 SpD Pelipper: 199-234 (61.6 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Having the option to OHKO Pelipper on the switch in would help CAP 24 deny an additional chance for Pelipper to set rain up, provide it isn't sacked.

Now onto the fire coverage options:

Overheat shouldn't be allowed, Z crystal sets allow Sun CAP to bypass some of it's counters and defensive switchins.

252 SpA Whimsicott Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Pyroak: 225-265 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Overheat vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Pyroak: 195-230 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Defensive Pyroak is no longer able to check CAP 24 safely, forcing Pyroak to run sets heavily EV'd for Special Defense, further limiting what effectively checks CAP 24.

252 SpA Whimsicott Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 136-161 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Whimsicott Twinkle Tackle (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 123-144 (41.4 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Ideally Mega Char Y wouldn't be coming in with Stealth Rocks up and this wouldn't be a problem, but limiting what would otherwise be a safe switch-in, even if rocks were up, isn't ideal.

252 SpA Whimsicott Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Sun: 272-320 (74.9 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Overheat vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Sun: 237-281 (65.2 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Overheat vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 159-187 (43.8 - 51.5%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Whimsicott Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 180-214 (49.5 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Whimsicott Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona in Sun: 295-348 (94.8 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Whimsicott Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Blacephalon in Sun: 186-219 (75.3 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

These calcs further demonstrate how Overheat in the sun limits the viable switch-ins to CAP 24. Take careful note of the damage LO and Inferno Overdrive does to AV Magearna without the sun up; CAP 24 does enough with Overheat that AV Mag can't switch in safely once.

As for the other fire types moves, I present less of a calcs based argument, and one centered around balance and counter play. Fairy, Grass, Fighting, and Fire-type coverage on a single set is able to hit the majority of the metagame for super effective or neutral damage. Compounding this is Drought which drastically boosts the power output of Fire coverage. I believe that Fire coverage, particularly Flamethrower and more powerful moves, will drastically limit the viable counter play to the CAP. Pryoak, Mega Venusaur, Chary, and Chansey are not splashable Pokemon by any standard, which means that for a lot of teams, offensive pressure and reliable checks will be how they handle CAP 24. Now, Fire coverage starts to throw this out of the window by restricting what can actually switch into and pressure CAP 24. AV Magearna in particular is an important Pokemon in the metagame for the number of Pokemon it can blanket check, so having a negative matchup with it would go a long ways to keeping CAP 24 reasonable. Flamethrower hits a hard enough that it has a fair chance to 3HKO Magearna outside of sun, and 2HKO with sun. In comparison, Flame Burst can only 4HKO without sun, and 3HKO with it.

Flamethrower is probably more powerful than we need for CAP 24. Pressuring Celesteela is nice, but heavily pressuring AV Magerna isn't.

Mystical Fire really has no business on this CAP. The guaranteed Special Attack drop is way too powerful for the oppurtunity cost attached to it. Lowering the Special Attack of potential checks such as Blace, Volcorona, Volkraken, and Magearna on the switchin is not something this CAP needs. We shouldn't give CAP 24 a way to neuter what should be effective ways to force it out.

Incinerate is also undesirable due to presence of 50% pinch berries. There is just no need to remove an Aguav or Iapapa berry, and would be a strictly unneeded buff. HP Fire or even Fire Pledge would be an acceptable alternative that doesn't mess with the opponent for zero reason.

 

[Mx]

Finally, we arrive at the end of the discussion. Here's the list of all the approved movesets:

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Name: Offensive Drought Setter
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: [Fire Coverage] / Hidden Power Ground / Focus Blast
Move 3: [Fire Coverage] / Hidden Power Ground / Focus Blast
Move 4: Synthesis / Healing Wish
Ability: Drought
Item: Fightinium Z / Life Orb / Heat Rock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Name: Grassium Z
Move 1: Solar Beam / Leaf Storm
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: [Fire Coverage] / Hidden Power Ground / Focus Blast
Move 4: Synthesis / Shore Up
Ability: Drought / Trace
Item: Grassium Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Nature: Modest

Name: Choice Scarf
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: [Fire Coverage] / Hidden Power Ground / Focus Blast
Move 3: [Fire Coverage] / Hidden Power Ground / Focus Blast
Move 4: Solar Beam / Leaf Storm
Ability: Drought / Trace
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Name: Utility
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: [Fire Coverage] / Hidden Power Ground / Focus Blast
Move 3: Wish / Healing Wish / Light Screen
Move 4: Shore up / Synthesis
Ability: Trace / Drought
Item: Leftovers / Heat Rock / Fightinium-Z
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Name: Choice Specs
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: [Fire Coverage] / Hidden Power Ground / Focus Blast
Move 3: [Fire Coverage] / Hidden Power Ground / Focus Blast
Move 4: Solar Beam / Energy Ball / Leaf Storm
Ability: Drought / Trace
Item: Choice Specs
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest

And with more movesets, of course there are a few new required moves!

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-Wish: While this move hasn't garnered much discussion, it is usually less powerful than Shore Up, and it allows CAP 24 to make teammates like Tyranitar and Excadrill much harder to wear down. For this reasons, I believe that this move will be a fine addition to our final movepool

-Light Screen: Another niche option, I think that this will make support sets have another valuable option, while still always leaving us vulnerable against physical attackers like M-Crucibelle, making it not particularly powerful.

-Leaf Storm/Energy Ball: Two great Grass STABs, these moves incredibly useful for Trace sets. Leaf Storm in particular should be noted as our strongest weapon against Landorus-T.

On the other hand, I've decided to ban a few more moves before moving on:

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-Nature Power: I think that most people have agreed that while situational, this move can potentially screw with some of our checks and counters for no good reason.

-All Fire-type moves except for Flame Burst: After all this debate, I have come to the conclusion that strong Fire coverage would be too much for CAP 24 to have, as even our counter can be easily taken down after just a bit of additional damage. Not only that, but as I explained on my last post, the only real reason to have these kind of moves would be to beat Celesteela, and I believe we already do a good enough job at that thanks to our stats, so most Fire moves will have no place in CAP 24 movepool. The only exception to this will be Flame Burst, which will go to a poll.

-Weather Ball: Basically a Fire-type move thanks to Drought, it would not make sense to allow this after banning them.

-Stun Spore / Tailwind: While not particularly overwhelming, I think that in this case, the benefits of providing speed control for Sun teams are clearly overshadowed by the risks of permanently crippling most of our switch-ins, and allowing any other powerful abuser like Heatran or Volkraken to outspeed the entire metagame.

-Rapid Spin: While Defog has some decent support, I think that almost everyone agrees that Rapid Spin's ability to remove the opposite teams's hazard while keeping yours in the field would be too dangerous to allow.

-Reflect: While Light Screen has been well received, no one has mentioned the possibility of a Dual Screens set. As this option had no support, Reflect will be disallowed.

Finally, two moves will go to a poll:

-Defog: On one hand it is clear that this provides some incredibly valuable role compression for our teams, and it is certainly not a move that would make or break CAP 24. On the other hand, its detractors point out that this move is not really necessary, and only gives us more options, to the point were CAP 24 might be able to fit into any team much more easily than it should be. I don't really think neither side has a clear consensus for me to be able to make a clear decision here, and for this reason, I will send this move to a poll.

-Flame Burst: As I said earlier, I don't find Fire coverage to be something that CAP 24 particularly needs. The main reason why this move will go to a poll is to decide whether or not we should have an alternative to Hidden Power Fire, as with this move, we would be able to run Fire coverage alongside another HP type (Ground being the most attractive type available). It is important to note that this will be only Fire-Type move that CAP 24 could potentially get, and therefore, if you vote against this option, CAP 24 will have to depend on Hidden Power as its only Fire move, and will not be able to have access to Inferno Overdrive.

 

[Drapionswing]

As the Moveset discussion closes, I feel as if the last few posts have encapsulated my thoughts very well. Without rehashing any of the earlier sentiments, I'd like to just say that the real difference between us getting Flame Burst, and us not getting Flame Burst is our ability to beat Mollux and a Fire-Type Z move, both of which I don't think are necessary.

So with that being said, onto the polls!