CAP 25 - Part 1 - Framework Submissions

[Reiga]

• Name: Gourgeist Formes 2.0
• Description - This Pokemon has the same size-related form mechanic Gourgeist has, coming in Small, Average, Large and Super sizes.
• Explanation - Gourgeist was a Pokemon that came in generation 6 without a lot of fanfare, with bad overall capabilities for the meta leading to any potential it had with its various forms to be wasted. Alongside any of the rare weight related hi jinx, the main appeal of the different sizes is the different stats they bring to the table, allowing variations on sets without occupying an item or ability slot like other form-changing mechanics. Additionally, we can for example have Abilities that are only on certain forms, like how only Average and Super Gourgeist get their HA, allowing interesting niches to be filled by all formes.

 

[jas61292]

I don't want to just reiterate what has been said by reachzero and others regarding how these frameworks should be different from a concept, though I do totally agree with what has been said on that topic. However, I do want to touch on how I feel that some of these frameworks are being a bit too vague. As reach said, legendary exclusive moves are something not allowed within the rules normally, so if we want to use those, we absolutely need to do so at this stage. That said, I am a bit worried about a few frameworks that are specific about what part of the process would be altered, but not very specific on how.

An example of this would be gibygiby's framework Banned Move CAP. This is very specific on how the process is changed. We use a move that is banned. However, this leaves things super open. While in some sense, openness is a good thing, I feel like being this open with a framework doesn't really provide a strong basis for a project. It gives no specific direction for concept makers to take into account, and ultimately could end up as a project where the special element just feels tacked on, as literally any project could work so long as we throw in a legendary move when we get to that stage. While in theory, this would allow for concepts to specific more things, I don't think it is a great idea to leave that part up to concepts. This is the stage where we want to be defining how the project will be special, and putting it off seems like it would just make things difficult.

Contrast this framework with something like sunMYSER's Special Huge Power, where not only is the stage being altered defined, but the way in which it is altered is also defined. Because of this, we don't need to worry about deciding what is special later down the line. This also allows concepts to take the framework into account, without having to further define it. At the same time, since it is already defined, concepts can choose to not take it into account at all, if they prefer, simply knowing that because the process is being altered and the ability is predefined, it will certainly be a special attacker. I think this will overall make things easier for us.

 

[Brodaha]

• Name - "Bad" Steel Counter
• Description - This pokemon counters steel types while having a large disadvantage against them.
• Explanation - Steel Types are very powerful™. This pokemon would be dedicated to removing them or forcing them to switch so that teammates bothered by Steel types could be more useful, but in an unexpected style. This could be done with a typing weak to steel, but a custom move similar to Freeze-Dry to threaten the steel. It could also be handled with a custom ability that somehow made it useful against steel types despite it's shortcomings. It could even have stats designed to directly counter viable steel types in the meta, even with it's weakness.
• Possible questions-

-What makes Steel types so good?
-What could prevent Steel types from being good?
-What pokemon should be bad against steel types, but aren't?

 

[Arieth]

I agree with reachzero in that Frameworks shouldn't look much like a Concept at all. Crucibelle is the perfect example of what a Celebration CAP should be -- we decided as a community which rule we wanted to break (having a Mega Evolution) and went on making the project from there. Framework Submissions are simply the offshoot of that. I think the Frameworks that are simplistic and easily understood are the best ones. Mascot Legendary Duo, 255 Speed, Wonder Guard, and Starter Trio all stand out to me as successful frameworks.

My general advice for all is to find a Framework that fits the CAP Process. I am not interested in Frameworks where we need to have a Framework Discussion after voting to decide which direction we should take your vague Framework. Pipotchi, I know you don't agree with me, but I think your Framework would be stronger if you picked the item that would forme change. The item used in the forme change doesn't really matter, but I know I personally would be a lot more behind your concept if I knew what the item was upfront.

In a way, I feel Framework Submissions are better when they leave less to the imagination, the opposite of Concept Submissions!

gibygiby, I am glad you included a list of banned moves, but I think your scope is too broad. I think you will find more success if you focused in on a few moves (OR ALL MOVES) and worked from there. Wendig0, in a similar manner, I would pick how exactly you want to boost this Pokemon and submit that. Origin0, this is super vague; just pick a method of forme changing and go with it. Arieth and faithviolet, I feel bad for not posting this in the OP (we're all learning here!), but we won't ever make a CAP that riffs on an existing Pokemon. Should GameFreak ever change that Pokemon later on, we could get burned, badly. Sabbio, change that horrible name or you will not be slated, lol. 2MN, I really like your Framework, but I again feel you're being too vague. Why not making it outright something like: only moves under 60 BP allowed?

That's all I've got for now. Keep the submissions AND the discussions going!

Welp, at this point I'll just vote and try a submit a Concept. There are lots of interesting frameworks posted already anyway.

My favourite has to be Protypetrainer's 3+ Competitive abilities. I think it would be fun to see a mon with so many sets.

 

[Airwind]

• Name: Todo Terreno
• Description: A pokemon that can be used in the 4 terrains with different sets
• Explanation: Terrains are a huge thing in the metagame even change it how to use some cores like the important job that grassy terrain in TR teams or even making nature power user like tomohawk run more versatile with having 3 z-moves that can be used in different terrains, the usage of pokemon that are weak to priority moves like Mega alkazam and this will make the metagame a lot more fun to build and play thanks to what terrain can be used and make it more hype.

 

[Mx]

Name: Move-Based Form Change.

Description: This Pokemon is able to change between two forms in-battle by using a signature move.

Explanation: Game Freak has made a few attempts at creating a mon with in-battle form changes in the past, with the most notable examples being Aegislash, which has been banned from OU since last gen, and Meloetta, which almost never chooses to use its form change capacities. However, I believe that these two barely scratch the surface of the possibilities this mechanic is capable of, and this framework would allows to explore a ton of combinations that we would otherwise never be able to accomplish. I specifically choose a signature move as the trigger for the form change, instead of an ability, because this frees the ability slot for other competitive abilities, and I think that Meloetta is a clear precedent for a form change based on a move, without any signature ability involved.

 

[Project_Mars]

• Name: Todo Terreno
• Description: A pokemon that can be used in the 4 terrains with different sets
• Explanation: Terrains are a huge thing in the metagame even change it how to use some cores like the important job that grassy terrain in TR teams or even making nature power user like tomohawk run more versatile with having 3 z-moves that can be used in different terrains, the usage of pokemon that are weak to priority moves like Mega alkazam and this will make the metagame a lot more fun to build and play thanks to what terrain can be used and make it more hype.

This reads a lot more like a concept than a framework though.

 

[Hardrocknerd]

Name: Prism Armor-User
Description: a Pokémon with the ability Prism Armor
Explanation: I think one of the most interesting things to "break" with this CAP is to give it one of the normally forbidden sigature abilities because these, even more so than signature moves, can really impact the playstyle of a mon as they usually have to be played or are at least one of only 2 to 3 choices rather than one of 60 to 70. Now i considered just making my Framework "Use a signature ability", but after reading the multiple comments on such FWs being too vague I tried to find one of these abilities that could really be a significant or even defining asset of a mon while not already limiting Concepts too harshly. Prism Armor imo leaves a lot of concepts open from a Very hard to break-Wall to an offensive mon with less-than-expected checks, but most of these concepts can use the ability as a core part of themselves so it won't just feel "tacked on". It's only non-Uber user so far also isn't viable in OU/CAP at all, so this FW would introduce a completely new thing to the metagame.

Now this is the first time I've submitted anything to a CAP so criticism and help are very welcome even though there isn't much time left. I know I'm late!

 

[11bug]

Name: Auto-Gravity Ability

Description: This Pokemon has an ability where Gravity is automatically set when they are switched in, similar to the weather or terrain abilities seen by other Pokemon.

Explanation: Gravity is one of those mechanics that sees very little use. It’s difficult to keep active and can have some adverse effects on the user. However I think we could have a fantastic time exploring this concept. CAP in particular gives some interesting use cases for Gravity because of all the additional Pokemon who are effected by the grounding effect and removal of Flying type moves. Tomohawk and Cawmodore in particular come to mind. I think this could lead to some great teambuilding exercises.

 

[snake]

Name: Prism Armor-User
Description: a Pokémon with the ability Prism Armor
Explanation: I think one of the most interesting things to "break" with this CAP is to give it one of the normally forbidden sigature abilities because these, even more so than signature moves, can really impact the playstyle of a mon as they usually have to be played or are at least one of only 2 to 3 choices rather than one of 60 to 70. Now i considered just making my Framework "Use a signature ability", but after reading the multiple comments on such FWs being too vague I tried to find one of these abilities that could really be a significant or even defining asset of a mon while not already limiting Concepts too harshly. Prism Armor imo leaves a lot of concepts open from a Very hard to break-Wall to an offensive mon with less-than-expected checks, but most of these concepts can use the ability as a core part of themselves so it won't just feel "tacked on". It's only non-Uber user so far also isn't viable in OU/CAP at all, so this FW would introduce a completely new thing to the metagame.

Now this is the first time I've submitted anything to a CAP so criticism and help are very welcome even though there isn't much time left. I know I'm late!

My only concern about this ability is that it’s basically a reskin of Filter (which is allowed and has been discussed in previous projects), except that Mold Breaker doesn’t affect Prism Armor. Given that, I’m not sure how unique exploring this FW would be, but if there’s more to it than I’d like to know

Name: Auto-Gravity Ability

Description: This Pokemon has an ability where Gravity is automatically set when they are switched in, similar to the weather or terrain abilities seen by other Pokemon.

Explanation: Gravity is one of those mechanics that sees very little use. It’s difficult to keep active and can have some adverse effects on the user. However I think we could have a fantastic time exploring this concept. CAP in particular gives some interesting use cases for Gravity because of all the additional Pokemon who are effected by the grounding effect and removal of Flying type moves. Tomohawk and Cawmodore in particular come to mind. I think this could lead to some great teambuilding exercises.

Gravity doesn’t prevent Flying-type moves - it picks a select few moves to cancel, and the only 3 notable ones are Fly, Bounce, and High Jump Kick. Other than that, the two notable effects of Gravity are the 1.6x multiplier to accuracy and grounding Flying-types, which are admittedly useful. But, Cawmodore and Tomohawk will still be able to use Acrobatics and Roost.

 

[Rifou88]

Name: mega of an existing pokemon

Description: this CAP would be the mega evolution of a pokemon (official or CAP) that already exist.

Explanation: giving a mega evolution of an existing pokemon could have many interests. Firstly, it could give to a pokemon which has a good movepool but which isn't viable the ability to use that movepool thanks new stats, new typing and/or new ability.
On the other side, if the pokemon chosen is already viable, making CAP25 the mega evolution of that pokemon would mean that the original pokemon and CAP25 would not be allowed in the same team, that the opponent won't know from the team preview if the pokemon can mega evolve and that the user of CAP25 would be able to choose when he turn his old pokemon in CAP25 (the best example of all those points is gyarados, because it is not always easy to know if it is a Z-fly or the mega and because you don't want to mega evolve turn one, to keep the flying type and the ability of the normal gyarados).
Furthermore, I think that most important thing to break for this cap is mega evolution since the cap metagame is (at least in my opinion) lacking of mega. Indeed, in the usage database, we can see that in the top 50 used pokemons in the CAP meta game, only 5 are mega, while in the OU metagame, they are 13 mega in the top 50 used pokemons.

 

[Luckyboy123]

Name: A new fairy mythical

Description: A Pokémon that has the base stats of 100/100/100/100/100/100 such as Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, etc. The typing by the same name has nothing to do with it, though it could be interesting to use.

Explanation: though this trend of stat distribution was discontinued after victini I’d like to see a Pokémon that utilizes this stat combination. As with most of these Pokémon it should have a varied movepool and maybe a signature move like victini, shaymin and manaphy. For typing it would be cool to have a new typing, though having a psychic typing would keep it consistent with all of the other past mythicals except manaphy and shaymin. A signature ability like victini’s would be nice, though most other fairy mythicals don’t share this.

Questions: What could we do to avoid making this pokemon a jack of all trades but a master of none due to its stats?

What type combination is a good fit for it? A new one or a psychic based one?

If a signature move or ability is approved what would it do and how viable would it be?

 

[faithviolet]

The ones I like so far are the following. Not sure how the ratings work, but I like all the ones I mention.

Prism Armor-User: This is specific in what it breaks, and I like the way it messes with the defensive strengths of the types. ★★★

Auto-Gravity Ability: Isn't Fidgit kind of in this vein? Anyway, gravity is underpowered, and auto-setting abilities mean the effect doesn't need to be traded off against as hard. ★★★

Type-clone move CAP: Changing the type of an effect can make surprisingly big changes, and signature moves are a way to make this CAP more celebratory. I actually like leaving some of this open to voting in the future, so there can be more discussion to ensure the move chosen is an interesting concept. ★★

Altered Type Effectiveness: Another way to mess with the strengths of a type. I prefer Prism Armor to this one because the defense of a type feels like it matters more than offense because of coverage moves, but this is also decently fun, and signature moves are celebratory. ★

Low Base Power: This is a really cool way to try to bring the effects of weak moves into the foreground. I'm not as sure it would work out in practice, but I'd like to see us try. ★★★★

Regional Form: I'm not sure whether I'm allowed to comment on this, so I won't. ★★★★

Starter Trio CAPs: This is my favorite. The choice of starter is one of the most fun in the Pokemon games, and so this would be a great celebration. It also breaks the rules in a very specific way, but with room for concepts. ★★★★★

3+ Competitive abilities CAP: This is very targeted, a great challenge, and can be pulled in a lot of ways depending on concept or type. It's less exciting, but still if we can pull it off, that would definitely merit a celebration. ★★

Judgement User: Powerful flexibility of build seems fun to me in general, and the different kinds of Arceus in Ubers shows this well. This is also very specific about the change made. ★★

 

[Hardrocknerd]

snake_rattler Damn i forgot filter's existence. That of course makes my FW a lot less exciting. Still, it being immune to Mold Breaker (and Kyurem-Bs Teravolt) gives it a slight niche; also there isn't a viable Filter user in CAP yet, so it would still introduce something new to the metagame.

 

[hawk1113]

Personally I feel like Regional Form, Wonder Guard, and -Ate user are all great but I thought of one last night just in the interest of, well, interest...

Name: Galewing 2.0 (Priority Typing)

Description: At least one of this Pokemon's ability is an ability that works like Galewing (i.e., all moves of a certain type gain priority), possibly with the current "as long as it's at full health" nerf and possibly not.

Explanation: Speed is king in competition, and we all remember the terror of the Talonflame in Gen 6, firing off priority brave birds with impunity. Obviously Talonflame was unfun enough that Galewing got nerfed TO THE GROUND for Gen 7, and with it so did Talonflame's usability. I think the ability has merit and challenge, however, as the idea of a pokemon that can ignore its speed stat for certain moves is a spicy one and one that could lead to some interesting frameworks in an attempt to balance it. This impacts the process in one obvious way (it locks in the ability), but may change it in more subtle ways. For example, do we "game" things with an abysmal speed stat, or keep a modest to high speed? Does this Pokemon get a "Galewing-esque" ability for its STAB, or does it only get it for coverage/utility moves? Imagine a Normal type with "Swift Poison" that gave Poison moves priority, for example, thus letting it gain priority with Acid, Toxic, etc). Overall I think this is an exciting ability to explore that still leaves our idea of concepting wide open.

Questions to be Considered:
- Is it possible to create a balanced pokemon with an unnerfed version of this ability?
- Is this ability best used for fast STABs or for fast coverage and utility?
- What implications does it have if a Pokemon had this ability and an awful speed, thus meaning only its enhanced moves would ever go first?
- Is this ability inherently more or less powerful with different typings?

 

[snake]

I'd just like to give my opinion on these frameworks. The ones that I particularly like are most of the forme-changing ones, the Ultra Beast one, custom Z-move, type-clone move, and the Gourgeist formes. I especially like the Gourgeist concept because we can really explore how tweaking base stats in small increments changes how a Pokemon operates - this one makes stats stage really dynamic and leaves the concept wide-open. Type-clone move is also one of my favorites due to some moves having cool mechanics (Future Sight, Sucker Punch, Pursuit, draining moves, etc.) that either have poor distribution or would be interesting just to explore. Also leaves concepts wide berth for discussion. Custom Z-move is also cool, but we'll need to be careful about how complex it becomes. Ultra Beast is really topical for Gen 7 - everyone knows what an Ultra Beast is, so it'd be easy to jump into process. Finally, the forme-changing ones really break apart process, allowing us to explore what GF tried to with Minior, Meloetta, Aegislash, etc. - Pokemon that either went too far or flopped. I'll edit in any others that I find interesting, but these are the ones I personally would like to see.

 

[Pipotchi]

in usual fashion im just going to copy paste parts of snake_rattlers comment and agree with them, i think gourgeist concept is veeery exciting and relevant as a framework and doesnt affect concept at all. i really love the idea of exploring how very small stat changes will create a spectrum of solutions to a concept that can be catered to beat/be beaten by different things. this is what i enjoy about the static form changes in general and thats why im going to be voting for all of those (the ones that dont occur in battle).
one thing we often do with cap is struggle to cover too many things at once, and this is literally the perfect solution for our own problems as we get to spread these strengths across a range of mons instead of stuffing them all into one.

 

[Mintly]

Name: Type Thief CAP
Description: A Pokemon that steals the foe's typing to use itself.
Explanation: Typing is a large part of Pokemon. great typings allow Pokemon to flourish, while poor ones weigh down the Pokemon. by nabbing the foe's type, it can use said type to fill roles it couldn't have with its original typing. By stealing types like Bug/Steel, it can serve a defensive role while having only 1 weakness. by stealing an offensive typing like Dark/Ice, it can defeat many foes with STAB while being weak defensively. It's possible this pokemon could get a move like Revelation Dance, so it may have it's own reliable STAB.

 

[EpicUmbreon29]

Name - Imposter / Second Ability CAP

Description - This Pokemon has Imposter as one of its competitive abilities, with a second competitive ability being required in addition.

Explanation - Imposter, a usually illegal ability, will be unbanned and compulsory on this CAP. On its own, this idea would lead to a bit of a bland process. The interesting part comes in with the addition of the second ability. While this CAP will be designed to be fully viable using either ability, its true power comes from its unpredictability; simply having it on your team makes it dangerous for your opponent to attempt to set up unless its ability has been revealed to not be Imposter. In essence, with Imposter this would be a better Ditto, while freedom is retained with the second competitive ability to build a Pokemon which can take advantage of its own non-HP stats and movepool, allowing this Pokemon to fit on different kinds of teams if desired. This also grants greater freedom in the Concept Submissions stage.

Although the unpredictability aspect of this framework may sound similar to Aurumoth from the days of old (aka "oh no, I thought that was a real Colossoil so now I just lost the entire match"), this framework makes use of a much more healthy form of unpredictability. The problem with Aurumoth traditionally was that you could never be sure if it was on the field or not until it was too late; with Imposter, it is made explicitly clear when the Pokemon enters the field, and the uncertainty is entirely about which set the Pokemon will run.

Given that Ditto, the only mon that can currently make use of Imposter, is in PU due to the way that this ability's effectiveness varies based on team matchup, there should not be too much worry about Imposter itself being an overpowered ability. Even Mew, with much better HP than Ditto, still only uses Transform in very niche situations. However, these two Pokemon display that transformation can be a very viable strategy. For example, Ditto can revenge kill many glass cannons and take over sweeps, and Imposter is also greatly helpful for scouting and anti-leading.