CAP 25 - Part 9 - CAP 25f Full Movepool Submissions

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#51
iFeedback You have my favorite movepool right now for Smokomodo. I love all the small flavor aspects thrown in and the decision to emphasize certain flavor themes such as trapping. I also really appreciate the Maria de Penha event, as she is someone who really deserves to be honored and not enough people know her story. One small nitpick is that there should be an "no" after pneumo in the condition you mentioned. Definitely my top choice so far though.
 
#53
I know Final Submissions are open, but I think people are still editing so I wanted to take some time to give my thoughts on a few of my favorites.

G-Luke, I like Bone Rush and I think it makes your movepool a bit of a standout, although I would like to see some flavor justification for it given this stage of the CAP process. I like many of your other flavor justifications, such as your inclusion of Flame Burst and your exclusion of Low Sweep, so I think it's possible. Your inclusion of Iron Tail as a level 0 move is a bit of a head scratcher. Looking at Decidueye, Primarina, and Incineroar, they learn Peck, Disarming Voice, and Lick as their "flavor" level 0 move, all of which are appropriately weak and also learned by level-up. Iron Tail is powerful and seems a bit out of place. Perhaps Metal Claw would fit better? Honestly I think you could just put Lick or Smog as the 4th level 0 move, since they are already in the LU movepool and it better fits the pattern established by other starters.

Dogfish44, first I'd like to say that I love your flavor descriptions, and I also like some of the more "realistic" elements such as your inclusion of a noncompetitive egg move with Metal Claw. My biggest issue is that I think Metronome as an event move is a bit unnecessary. I understand your reasoning but it doesn't look like the majority of submitters are following in that example and it may end up just looking out of place if one of your submissions wins. Maybe replace Metronome with flavorful egg moves that could be viable on an omniboosting set?

Deck Knight, I have only a couple of critiques. I think Iron Tail is a bit underwhelming as a capstone move (although Primarina gets Misty Terrain so I don't know anymore...), but my bigger problem is Payday. I'm really against it given that it's Meowth's signature move. While your justification for its inclusion as an event move is certainly fun, I don't think it's strong enough to warrant Payday being included in Smoky's final movepool.

iFeedback, I know I've already given a lot of feedback on your movepool, but I did notice that you feature Lava Plume as both a level-up move and an Evolution move. The Sun/Moon starters have their Evolution moves as Heart Scale moves, but they don't normally learn them via level-up. Wouldn't it be kind of weird for Smoky's preevo to try to learn Lava Plume at level 29 and then try to learn it again upon evolving? Maybe instead make Lava Plume a Heart Scale move and perhaps use it to replace Eruption? Having Eruption as a HS move seems to detract from it being a capstone move anyway.

pokehimon, I really like your Heart Scale move selection, and for the most part your level-up moves seem appropriate and they bring some unique flavor (I like Quick Attack and I think it has cute synergy with Technician). Defog as a level-up move seems a bit strange, however, as Smoky doesn't have wings like most defoggers. It also seems like a Pokemon that is more interested in dirtying up the air than cleaning it, so that's an odd flavor choice in my opinion.
 
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cbrevan

spin, spin, spin
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
#54
Yo. Its been several days since my last post and I think we're at the point where we can put the 48 hour warning up for thread closure. Once that time is up I'll compile a slate consisting of every legal entry, and once our TL stamps it we'll move onto polling the submissions.

To have a legal entry a submittor must follow all the rules stated in the OP. This means that total move count cannot exceed 85, all mandatory moves must be included, and all banned moves must be omitted from the submission. In addition, each submittor must have Final Submission at the top of a single submission. The next part isn't exactly a rule, but I will be looking for some reasoning behind movepool choices and I know voters will be too.

I'll be spending my free time during the next 48 hours doing legality checks for final submissions so that this thread closes in a timely manner. This means I might not be able to post legality checks in all three threads until after the deadline is up, so do yourself a favor and check your submissions.

Tagging every submittor who hasn't posted a final sub yet: wadusher Wugus Gale Wings Golurk Granny Pie Frostbiyt Reiga

MaahirMomtaz12 as of the my previous post one of Celebrate, Happy Hour, and Hold Hands is mandatory, so please add one of them to your movepool via an event. Dragon Claw and Dragon Tail were also banned as per my last post, so remove those please.
 

G-Luke

We Eat Losers
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
#55
I know Final Submissions are open, but I think people are still editing so I wanted to take some time to give my thoughts on a few of my favorites.

G-Luke, I like Bone Rush and I think it makes your movepool a bit of a standout, although I would like to see some flavor justification for it given this stage of the CAP process. I like many of your other flavor justifications, such as your inclusion of Flame Burst and your exclusion of Low Sweep, so I think it's possible. Your inclusion of Iron Tail as a level 0 move is a bit of a head scratcher. Looking at Decidueye, Primarina, and Incineroar, they learn Peck, Disarming Voice, and Lick as their "flavor" level 0 move, all of which are appropriately weak and also learned by level-up. Iron Tail is powerful and seems a bit out of place. Perhaps Metal Claw would fit better? Honestly I think you could just put Lick or Smog as the 4th level 0 move, since they are already in the LU movepool and it better fits the pattern established by other starters.
Thank you for the feedback! I was always skeptical of Iron Tail after I initially added it, but I couldnt think of a replacement. Metal Claw basically slides v.well here.

Also yh, I'll add some flavour reasoning for the GOAT Bone Rush. I am just glad you and hopefully others can understand why its cool to add Bone Rush.
 
#56
pokehimon, I really like your Heart Scale move selection, and for the most part your level-up moves seem appropriate and they bring some unique flavor (I like Quick Attack and I think it has cute synergy with Technician). Defog as a level-up move seems a bit strange, however, as Smoky doesn't have wings like most defoggers. It also seems like a Pokemon that is more interested in dirtying up the air than cleaning it, so that's an odd flavor choice in my opinion.
Thanks that's kind of you to say! I chose Defog since for that slot since it was a stat-dropper and it was a required move. It could be a breeding move from Seedot (requires a Gen IV Shiftry, Empoleon or something since nothing can currently pass it by level-up), but it's already a pretty stacked Breeding Pool and replacing it with something like Scary Face or Screech just makes its overall movepool larger without much benefit. I justified Defog since it could theoretically blast the fog away with normal air currents /shrug

EDIT: Have since been reminded that Defog is a Tutor Move in Gen 7 so I think I will amend that.
 
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Granny Pie

Mafia Champion
#57
Final Submission

Bold = required moves
Italics = repeated moves

1 Poison Fang
1 Fire Fang
1 Slash
1 Lava Plume
1 Scratch
1 Growl
1 Ember
1 Smokescreen
Evo Lava Plume
4 Growl
6 Ember
11 Smokescreen

14 Fire Spin
18 Sand Tomb
22 Flame Wheel

25 Magnitude
28 Poison Fang
31 Fire Fang
38 Slash

45 Mud Bomb
51 Belch
57 Earthquake
62 Flare Blitz
69 Gunk Shot

74 Eruption
82 Fissure

Smokomodo's Level Up sequence was based off of a combination of Delphox and Incineroar's patterns, with Delphox's levels and STAB and non-STAB patterns and Incineroar's more attacking moveset. I wanted Smokomodo to resemble a komodo dragon early in its movepool, with basic Fire-type moves and several bite attacks and scratch, most notably Poison Fang, as the komodo dragon has one of the most venomous bites in the entire animal kingdom. But as Smokomodo's levels increase, he begins to take an earth-shaking moveset starting with a volcano's typical mudslide as the eruption begins. Flames roar inside of the stomach of the volcano, and toxic gasses belch out of its mouth. The eruption sets off an earthquake, spewing more toxic gunk into the atmosphere, until the final eruption happens, splitting the ground with the force of its tremors. All-in-all, I see Smokomodo as less of an intelligent and crafty fighter than a monster wielding the raw power and rage of the primordial earth itself. Basically, as it becomes more powerful, it becomes more like a volcano, and less like a lizard. Sure, it has staple moves to stealthily and efficiently hunt prey with, such as its powerful and incredibly venomous bite, but Smokomodo is going to be winning big fights in the wild through sheer overwhelming rage and power alone. Smokomodo is so powerful, even his weaker attacks pack more of a punch than another Pokemon would. A volcano doesn't wait for the perfect moment to strike. It explodes and destroys everything in its path whenever it damn well pleases, and every little effect it has will be devastating.

CAP25F-1 Mud Slap
CAP25F-2 Mud Shot
CAP25F-1 Poison Gas
CAP25F-2 Clear Smog

Bulldoze is CAP25F-1's weaker version of CAP25F-2's Magnitude. Mud Slap is the lower step to Mud Shot, which itself is the lower step to Mud Bomb. Similarly, Poison Gas is the lower step to Clear Smog, and both would replace Belch, as the weaker volcanoes of CAP25F-1 and 2 release less toxins less violently.

Acid (Arbok)
Acid Spray (Arbok)
Bullet Punch (Pangoro)
Circle Throw (Pangoro)
Force Palm (Lucario)
Incinerate (Darmanitan)
Mach Punch (Infernape)
Morning Sun (Espeon)
Storm Throw (Pangoro(through chain-breeding from Throh))

Burn Up (Typhlosion)
Bone Rush (Lucario)
Inferno (Charizard)
Surf (Feraligatr)

Field is the typical egg group of Fire starters, while Monster is chosen to attach Smokomodo to Charizard and other lizard Pokemon, and because I see Smokomodo as more of a monster than a dragon, despite its komodo dragon namesake. I also don't like the idea of a Dragon Egg Group Pokemon not having a single Dragon type move, as giving it Dragon Claw is no good, and I don't want to give a Pokemon whose claws are one of its biggest features Dragon-type moves without Dragon Claw. Anyways, Smokomodo has inherited a lot of Poison type moves from its lizard brethren to reflect its komodo dragon heritage, and Surf because Game Freak seems to have a tendency to give many non-Water-type lizards in the Monster egg group Surf. And yes, komodo dragons can swim. And it's terrifying. Smokomodo also has some odd moves in his moveset, including things like Mach Punch and Bullet Punch, Circle Throw, Storm Throw, and Force Palm. The flavor I attributed to it was that Smokomodo is the apprentice at the beginning of a journey: Powerful and with limitless potential, but when taught and raised to hone his powers in an environment outside of the one he's used to, that power can be focused slightly more.

CAP 25 Celebration

Smokomodo @ Bottle Cap
Level 50
Ability: Technician
Nature: Random
OT: Doug
ID: 478414
Met: 2018 Celebration CAP (fateful encounter)
Ribbon: Souvenir Ribbon
- Celebrate
- Eruption
- Belch
- Fissure


International Volcano Awareness Day (The Anniversary of Pompeii's Destruction)

Smokomodo @ Relic Crown
Level 79
Ability: Blaze
Nature: Rash
OT: Vesuvius
ID: 082479
Met: Pompeii (fateful encounter)
Ribbon: Special Ribbon
- Eruption
-
Dig
- Earthquake
- Belch


The two events I have for Smokomodo are the typical CAP25 Celebration event, holding a Silver Bottle Cap in appreciation of CAP's silver anniversary, and a volcanic eruption event oriented around the anniversary of Pompeii's destruction at the hands of Vesuvius, a day known in modernity as Volcano Awareness Day.

Defog
Snore

Low Kick
Iron Tail
Stealth Rock
Fire Punch
Earth Power
Gunk Shot
Heat Wave
Superpower

Blast Burn
Fire Pledge

TM01 Work Up
TM05 Roar
TM06 Toxic
TM08 Bulk Up
TM09 Venoshock
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM12 Taunt
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solar Beam

TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM35 Flamethrower
TM36 Sludge Bomb
TM37 Sandstorm
TM38 Fire Blast
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM50 Overheat

TM54 False Swipe
TM61 Will-O-Wisp
TM64 Explosion
TM68 Giga Impact
TM78 Bulldoze

TM84 Poison Jab
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM90 Substitute
TM100 Confide


Poison coverage continues in the TMs, as well as some other flavorful grass and and normal coverage, but also several things illustrating Smokomodo's hunting nature with some violent fighting-type coverage and moves like Torment and Roar. I also included Explosion cuz volcanoes explode and that's cool. :>


82 total moves

Smokomodo is a very violent Pokemon, both like its lizard namesake, the komodo dragon, and its design namesake, an active volcano. I wanted Smokomodo to be as visceral as possible with its moveset, using Technician to power up its weak moves not through smart technique, but through sheer and raw power and violence. It has many tearing and biting moves, referencing its sharp teeth and claws, such as Fire Fang and Poison Fang, referencing the komodo dragon's horrifically toxic bite, as well as Scratch, Slash, and Poison Jab, and several moves referencing its lizard heritage, with prey-hunting and prey-overcoming moves such as Fire Spin, Sand Tomb, Acid, Acid Spray, and Surf, allowing it to follow and incapacitate what it's hunting. But Smokomodo is more than just a predator, it is also an unparalleled fighter, with overpowering STAB and fighting techniques meant to overpower and break its competition. Aside from Smokomodo's cataclysmic movepool referencing volcanoes, being Lava Plume, Belch belching toxins out of his craters, Earthquake, Gunk Shot, Eruption, Fissure, Poison Gas and Clear Smog, Earth Power, Inferno, Overheat, and Explosion, Smokomodo also has an extensive and strong physical fighting movepool, with Storm Throw, Force Palm, Brick Break, Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, and Circle Throw .
All-in-all, Smokomodo is clearly the most violent of the the starters, combining a powerful predator with a world-ending cataclysm in an erupting volcano, and his movepool should reflect such horrific violence and power.
 
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#58
Granny Pie minor stuff, but your justification and explanation refers to Bite which you've since removed since it got banned. I like your set-up a lot, but for the masses you may want to avoid confusion and remove all mention of Bite from your text.
 
#59
The chief stand out is by far Bone Rush. Bone Rush is a rather controversial attack, with people claiming to call it uncompetitive. Bone Rush hits 3 times an average of 66% of the time, a 10% chance to miss, a 1/6 chance of hitting at a weak base power and a combined 30% chance of pushing to a higher BP. Just like Blizzard, roughly 70% of the time it does what is intended.
Lemme get the correct probabilities before we continue. For the sake of this post, we'll assume no crits as that would make the math much more complex.
2/20(10%) - Miss - 0BP
6/20(30%) - 2 Hits - 75BP
6/20(30%) - 3 Hits - 112.5BP
3/20(15%) - 4 Hits - 150 BP
3/20(15%) - 5 Hits - 187.5BP
Average: 106.875BP
The miss chance is easy since it has nothing to do with number of hits, so it is
1/10
Without factoring in accuracy, the odds for 2, 3, 4, or 5 hits are
1/3 - 2 Hits
1/3 - 3 Hits
1/6 - 4 Hits
1/6 - 5 Hits
Each of these probabilities only occur after the 9/10 chance of hitting, so we need to multiply each of those probabilities by 9/10
9/30 - 2 Hits
9/30 - 3 Hits
9/60 - 4 Hits
9/60 - 5 Hits
In order for these figures to be easily comparable, the denominators need to be converted to the same number
1/10 * 2/2 = 2/20
9/30 * 2/2 = 18/60 | (18/60) / (3/3) = 6/20
(9/60) / (3/3) = 3/20
And just to double check the math was right, the numerators should add up to the shared denominator of 20
2+6+6+3+3 = 20
The average BP came from multiplying the probability by the BP of each event and then adding them together
This average may not look too impressive compared to Earthquake's 100BP, but compare Fire Blast and Flamethrower(93.5 vs 90) or Focus Blast vs Aura Sphere(84 vs 80) and you can see that it would not be at all unreasonable to use Bone Rush over Earthquake. It outperforms EQ 60% of the time and does some, albeit less damage 30% of the time.


Bone Rush has a considerable chance of screwing over the user, either not being strong enough to do considerable damage or straight up missing. It also has a considerable chance to gain BP and break through things it may not be able to with other Ground attacks. I believe uncompetitive strats allow the user to rely on RNG to win rather than skil, forcing unviable strategies to counter. Bone Rush to me, while it does have an RNG factor, is not to the point in which it makes users rely on luck to win.... In addition, the chance to fail and not be at an effective BP isn't a meaningless value, and can be severely punished for doing so thanks to Smokomodo's fraility. I think people that are against Bone Rush just do not want to lose to cheese, and use the uncompetitive argument as a shield.
Here is where we get to the difference between Bone Rush and attacks like Focus Blast or Fire Blast. Those attacks are easy to prepare against. They either hit and do 110/120BP worth of damage, or they do nothing. When calcing for them, you assume they hit, but with Bone Rush how many hits do you calc for? 3? 4? All 5? You could base your calcs on it doing 3 hits, but then you'll be beaten 30% of the time. Once we get to 4 or 5 hits we reach or exceed the power of Bonemerang, so if you want to be sure your mon will be a consistent answer to Bone Rush Smokomodo, you need to assume it will do 5 hits. That puts a large restriction on teambuilding if you need a check for Smokomodo.

As an example, Earthquake is a guaranteed 3HKO on Sub DD Zygarde, so Zygarde could switch in and then either OHKO it with Thousand Arrows or Dragon Dance, then hit it with Thousand Arrows
252 Atk Earth Plate Numel Earthquake vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 154-183 (38.1 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
140+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Numel: 338-398 (106.6 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So with just EQ, this Zygarde set can switch in and KO/force out Smokomodo every time, barring crits(even then it would need two crits to 2HKO). But if Smokomodo is carrying Bone Rush, it will take 7 or 8 hits total to KO depending on rolls. The probability of this happening is somewhere between 18% and 36%(the damage calc doesn't make this easy, idk what the exact percentage is but it is within that range) So this set, which would've been a guaranteed switch in now has between about a one in five and a one in three chance of losing just because of RNG. This is both uncompetitive and unfun

This is just one example, but you will get similar results with almost any other grounded defensive check.

It doesn't take unviable strats to counter Bone Rush either (most common ways to deal with Ground type attacks still apply for Bone Rush)... The fact that this phenomenon actually exists in standard play (Bullet Seed Breloom) and has not been banned nor deemed uncompetitive in nature further proves my point.
Bone Rush does force people to run one of a small set of defensive Pokemon if they want a consistent answer for Smokomodo. I'd like to point out that Breloom is slow with 70 base speed, frail with 60/80/60 Defenses, has a 4x weakness to the common Flying type, and has to use the mediocre offensive type of Grass to deal out significant damage. Despite all of this, it got banned in UU. To be fair, Tech Bullet Seed was not the only reason it got banned, Spore was another big part in that and its ability to also run a Sub Poison Heal set, but it was still a big factor in its banning.

Hax is something that is common place in Pokemon and is something we will always have to deal with, as annoying as being fully paralyzed three turns in a row is.
Terrible point. Just because stuff like this already happens means that we should actively add more RNG? Is this a competitive project or not?

That rant out of the way, we gotta justify Bone Rush, which actually is not hard. Komodo Dragons, while voracious predators, are also notorious scavengers. And what is more associated with carrion than anything else? Bones. Bone Rush being granted to a Pokemon due to having some connections to scavenging is not even new, as Mandibuzz also gets the move.
Mandibuzz has a bone in its design, it doesn't just get it because it is a scavenger. Rattata, Raticate, Teddiursa, Ursaring, Poochyena, Mightyena, Wingull, and many othjers I'm sure are all based on animals that are primarily or occasionally scavengers, but they don't get Bone Rush.

The only Pokemon that gets Bone Rush but doesn't have a bone in its design is Lucario, which is based on the Egyptian god Anubis. Its primary roles in Egyptian mythology were the guider of souls to the afterlife, an embalmer, the weighing of a person's heart to determine if they went to the afterlife, and as the protector of graves, cemeteries, and tombs. That last one I think being the most important part of why it gets Bone Rush. As far as I am aware no other Pokemon is as directly connected to the dead in a supernatural way as Lucario is. Before you bring up Yveltal, it doesn't deal at all with the dead, it causes death. It is more akin to a Dementor or an atomic bomb than to something like Anubis.
 
#60
As far as I am aware no other Pokemon is as directly connected to the dead in a supernatural way as Lucario is. Before you bring up Yveltal, it doesn't deal at all with the dead, it causes death. It is more akin to a Dementor or an atomic bomb than to something like Anubis.
I was going to say Dusknoir, personally. Though it does deal a lot more with spirits than with corpses.
 
#61
Final Submission

Bold: Required
Italic: duplicates

hs Incinerate
hs Sand Tomb
hs Fissure
hs Acid Spray
- Ember
- Smokescreen
- Scratch
- Leer

evo Blaze kick
1 Scratch
1 Leer
6 Ember
8 Smokescreen
9 Mud Shot
12 Fire fang
15 Force Palm
18 Metal Claw
21 Flame Wheel
24 Magnitude
27 Camouflage
31 Slash
34 Dig
40 Storm Throw
44 Comet Punch
49 Lava plume
55 Flare Blitz
60 Eruption
66 Fissure
This Smokomodo behaves like a martial artist with a dormant volcano attached to its back. This volcano is the main source of its raw brute force, but unfortunately for Smokey, it remains dormant for the majority of its movepool, giving very minimal amounts of fire to fight with until its ready to erupt.

I followed the overall trends set by Incineroar about as loosely as my Snaelstrom movepool follows Primarina. Much like Incineroar the STAB moves come in clusters, and the latter half of the movepool copies the cluster of flavorful normal moves following a cluster of STABs, albeit with different ones and not as many normal moves as Incineroar gets at that point. I put camouflage right before that to make it easier for Smokey to take advantage of those incoming normal moves. Also because its obligatory on a chameleon like Smokey.

I made sure to keep most of the level-up pool consisting of punches and kicks. The use of Blaze Kick is especially important here, as it combines the volcano and the fighter sides of Smokey, making a good representation of the movepool as a whole. This makes for a solid evo move given that evo moves are typically a preview for the whole movepool.

Fire Spin
Horn Attack

Mach Punch (Infernape)
Bullet Punch (Pangoro)
Clear Smog (Torkoal)
Circle Throw (Pangoro)
Morning Sun (Espeon)
Quick guard (Lucario, Meowstic, Lycanroc-Midday, etc)
Detect (Zangoose, Absol, Lucario, etc)
Poison fang (Mawile, Tyrunt)
Stealth Rock (Tyrunt)
All the competitive stuff I didn't have room for went here, as well as Quick Guard. I was thinking of what Smokey would only want in doubles, only to realize it'd most likely run 3 attacks protect (or in this case Detect), typically using the same attacks it can use in singles. All I could think of afterwards was Quick Guard. Lots of fast and smart pokemon get it so it fits nicely here.

TM01 Work Up
TM05 Roar
TM08 Bulk Up
TM11 Sunny Day
TM12 Taunt
TM22 Solar Beam
TM26 Earthquake
TM35 Flamethrower

TM37 Sandstorm
TM38 Fire Blast
TM47 Low Sweep
TM50 Overheat
TM54 False Swipe
TM56 Fling
TM60 Quash
TM61 Will-O-Wisp
TM67 Smart Strike
TM78 Bulldoze
TM84 Poison Jab

TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power
TM15 Hyper beam
TM17 Protect
TM21 Return
TM27 Frustration
TM32 Double team
TM41 Torment
TM42 Façade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM68 Giga impact
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep talk
TM90 Substitute
TM100 Confide


Universal TMs are listed separately from the rest of the TMs to shift focus to the ones I added.
The most controversial move here is probably Fling. Technically you get a 100bp coverage option out of it with a fossil or a Z move, but this is one time use, and a waste of an item slot which requires residual damage to OHKO mega Latios, and doesn't even come close to OHKOing mega latias. More importantly it forces you to give up your item for a fossil, meaning it won't see use. It's also on basically everything with arms, so Smokey not having access to it is rather silly.

I'm not sure why I put Roar here, but I suppose Smokey can be intimidating enough to make it work.
Quash, like Snatch, is another move that is present among tricksters, but it also happens to be on things with a sense of superiority, which I can imagine Smokey having loads of.

Sunny Day and Sandstorm are obligatory given our typing. Gunk shot without Poison Jab is infuriating, especially for those who prefer accuracy over power, so not including it seemed like a bad idea. Who doesn't love potentially Technician boosted False Swipe when you're catching pokemon for your in-game team?
Smart Strike is performed using a horn, and Smokey has quite the prominent horn, so it fits perfectly.

Stealth Rock
Gunk Shot
Defog
Snore
Earth Power

Iron tail
Stomping Tantrum
Heat wave
Snatch
Super fang
Low kick
Laser focus
Fire Punch

Blast Burn
Fire Pledge
This ended up just being coverage. Iron Tail gives Smokey something to do with its rather large tail. Stomping Tantrum allows it to not hit its teammate with Earthquake/Bulldoze in Doubles. Flavor wise, it's reminiscent of Ash's struggle to train his Charmeleon in the anime. Snatch is on all sorts of sneaky, underhanded types of pokemon, so it fits Smoky well enough. Super fang's a bit of a last minute addition that came about as I was informed of the much stronger biting tendencies of komodo dragons than I expected.

Celebration CAP
Smokomodo @ Quick Claw
Level 50
Ability: Blaze
Nature: Random
OT: Yours
ID: Yours
Met: 2018 Celebration CAP (fateful encounter)
Ribbon: Classic Ribbon
- Celebrate
- Mach Punch
- Morning Sun
- Blast Burn

Pokebank Distribution
Smokomodo @ Bottle Cap
Level 50
Ability: Technician
Nature: Random
OT: Yours
ID: Yours
Met: Fateful encounter
Ribbon: Classic Ribbon
- Celebrate
- Mach Punch
- Morning Sun
- Blast Burn
I was originally going to have baby Smoky receive Celebrate but apparently that's a no go, so I just went with having both be lv50 final evos. The pokebank event mirrors Intimidate Incineroar's distribution, while the other one's kept fairly generic. I don't really know if Z-celebrate sets even need egg moves, but morning sun and mach punch are the ones on my list that I think work best with it.


Total moves: 81
 
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G-Luke

We Eat Losers
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
#62
Lemme get the correct probabilities before we continue. For the sake of this post, we'll assume no crits as that would make the math much more complex.
2/20(10%) - Miss - 0BP
6/20(30%) - 2 Hits - 75BP
6/20(30%) - 3 Hits - 112.5BP
3/20(15%) - 4 Hits - 150 BP
3/20(15%) - 5 Hits - 187.5BP
Average: 106.875BP
The miss chance is easy since it has nothing to do with number of hits, so it is
1/10
Without factoring in accuracy, the odds for 2, 3, 4, or 5 hits are
1/3 - 2 Hits
1/3 - 3 Hits
1/6 - 4 Hits
1/6 - 5 Hits
Each of these probabilities only occur after the 9/10 chance of hitting, so we need to multiply each of those probabilities by 9/10
9/30 - 2 Hits
9/30 - 3 Hits
9/60 - 4 Hits
9/60 - 5 Hits
In order for these figures to be easily comparable, the denominators need to be converted to the same number
1/10 * 2/2 = 2/20
9/30 * 2/2 = 18/60 | (18/60) / (3/3) = 6/20
(9/60) / (3/3) = 3/20
And just to double check the math was right, the numerators should add up to the shared denominator of 20
2+6+6+3+3 = 20
The average BP came from multiplying the probability by the BP of each event and then adding them together
This average may not look too impressive compared to Earthquake's 100BP, but compare Fire Blast and Flamethrower(93.5 vs 90) or Focus Blast vs Aura Sphere(84 vs 80) and you can see that it would not be at all unreasonable to use Bone Rush over Earthquake. It outperforms EQ 60% of the time and does some, albeit less damage 30% of the time.
Thansk for whipping the correct math, as now I can use more accurate math to argue for my points.


Here is where we get to the difference between Bone Rush and attacks like Focus Blast or Fire Blast. Those attacks are easy to prepare against. They either hit and do 110/120BP worth of damage, or they do nothing. When calcing for them, you assume they hit, but with Bone Rush how many hits do you calc for? 3? 4? All 5? You could base your calcs on it doing 3 hits, but then you'll be beaten 30% of the time. Once we get to 4 or 5 hits we reach or exceed the power of Bonemerang, so if you want to be sure your mon will be a consistent answer to Bone Rush Smokomodo, you need to assume it will do 5 hits. That puts a large restriction on teambuilding if you need a check for Smokomodo.

As an example, Earthquake is a guaranteed 3HKO on Sub DD Zygarde, so Zygarde could switch in and then either OHKO it with Thousand Arrows or Dragon Dance, then hit it with Thousand Arrows
252 Atk Earth Plate Numel Earthquake vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 154-183 (38.1 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
140+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Numel: 338-398 (106.6 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So with just EQ, this Zygarde set can switch in and KO/force out Smokomodo every time, barring crits(even then it would need two crits to 2HKO). But if Smokomodo is carrying Bone Rush, it will take 7 or 8 hits total to KO depending on rolls. The probability of this happening is somewhere between 18% and 36%(the damage calc doesn't make this easy, idk what the exact percentage is but it is within that range) So this set, which would've been a guaranteed switch in now has between about a one in five and a one in three chance of losing just because of RNG. This is both uncompetitive and unfun

This is just one example, but you will get similar results with almost any other grounded defensive check.
Yes. You do check with 3 hits in mind, as that is the most reasonable amount that will happen. Most Pokemon that would be consistent answers for Smokomodo are not majorly pressured by the addition of Bone Rush (save for Arghonaut, which relies on favourable rolls and not being Toxic'd to even do so.) Especially since Smoko has a nice array of coverage options. Also why are pretending that Zygarde is a sound threat that can be considered a solid switch in when calcs like this exist

4 SpA Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 248-292 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 322-380 (79.7 - 94%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

You can't even argue that Hidden Power Ice is fringe coverage that may or may not be ran - HP Ice will be as standard as standard can be, and wrecklessly switching in a Zygarde in hopes of setting up or forcing it out is a fool's errand. So I consider that argument null and void. Other Pokemon that can be brought that BR potentially screws over is also laughed at by, while probably less prominent, but still very much viable coverage options (Pyroak and Clef are eliminated by Gunk Shot and Storm Throw laughs at Chansey).

Bone Rush does force people to run one of a small set of defensive Pokemon if they want a consistent answer for Smokomodo. I'd like to point out that Breloom is slow with 70 base speed, frail with 60/80/60 Defenses, has a 4x weakness to the common Flying type, and has to use the mediocre offensive type of Grass to deal out significant damage. Despite all of this, it got banned in UU. To be fair, Tech Bullet Seed was not the only reason it got banned, Spore was another big part in that and its ability to also run a Sub Poison Heal set, but it was still a big factor in its banning.
You overstate the roll that Bullet Seed's "uncompetitiveness" had in the banning of Breloom. Biggest parts of the discussion is just how hard Breloom hit, the fact that it could easily SD and remove even more of its "switchins", just how broken perfectly accurate Sleep was and the fact that it could run a very different set that required very different counterplay. Smoko most likely won't have such vastly different sets that require different approaches to beating it, it will most likely have a few trade offs thanks to its wide coverage. Many solid checks like Mega Latios, Tomohawk and Fat Zapdos can still be ran to handle Smokomodo, and Bteloom also had zero oppurtunity cost to just click Bullet Seed, as it was strong enough to grant reasonable chip to even resists and had no other negative drawbacks. Bone Rush's immunity, coupled with its chance to miss, makes it a lot riskier to just blindly click.
Terrible point. Just because stuff like this already happens means that we should actively add more RNG? Is this a competitive project or not?
Its not about actively adding RNG, its primarily about giving Smokomodo a strong but not broken attack to utilize well with Technician. You haven't really put forward a an argument to soundly say for sure that Bone Rush is broken, and I can show that Smoko's "counters" that are placed under more pressure with BR are pressured just as much if not more with its multiple coverage options.

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 221-260 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 156-186 (35.2 - 41.9%) -- approx. 90% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (4 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 208-248 (46.9 - 55.9%) -- approx. 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(Needs 5 fits to actually outdamage Gunk Shot and actually 2hko it)
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 260-310 (58.6 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Storm Throw vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 471-554 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (3 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 291-342 (41.4 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (4 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 388-456 (55.2 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 485-570 (69 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 278-328 (70.5 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- approx. 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (4 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Camerupt Bone Rush vs. Tomohawk: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

Camerupt Bone Rush vs. Levitate Latios-Mega: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

Camerupt Bone Rush vs. Zapdos: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
Yeet

The only pokemon that are listed for switching in on Smokomodo and can actually do it matchups are not affected in any way by Bone Rush, because for the most part, they are immune to Ground attacks.


Mandibuzz has a bone in its design, it doesn't just get it because it is a scavenger. Rattata, Raticate, Teddiursa, Ursaring, Poochyena, Mightyena, Wingull, and many othjers I'm sure are all based on animals that are primarily or occasionally scavengers, but they don't get Bone Rush.

The only Pokemon that gets Bone Rush but doesn't have a bone in its design is Lucario, which is based on the Egyptian god Anubis. Its primary roles in Egyptian mythology were the guider of souls to the afterlife, an embalmer, the weighing of a person's heart to determine if they went to the afterlife, and as the protector of graves, cemeteries, and tombs. That last one I think being the most important part of why it gets Bone Rush. As far as I am aware no other Pokemon is as directly connected to the dead in a supernatural way as Lucario is. Before you bring up Yveltal, it doesn't deal at all with the dead, it causes death. It is more akin to a Dementor or an atomic bomb than to something like Anubis.
Flavour is subjective, but I do admit that the flavour reasoning for Smokomodo getting Bone Rush is sketchy. As I said, the addition was mainly for competitive reasons (Do not worry, cbrevan said it was ok to add it if I so choose). But to shine light on the stuff about said "scavengers" you listed, Bears, rats and seagulls are not known to actively scavenge carcasses at all, and will eat the carcass as common as any predator might stumble across it. Hyenas are a bit more precarious, but it is known that the thought that Hyenas are just scavengers is a myth, since they are apex predators who actively hunt and source most of their food in this manner, even having higher hunt success rates than lions. Komodos on the other hand are well documented on their scavenging, as while they are ambush hunters, scavenging is a very big part of their diet.
 
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#63
Yes. You do check with 3 hits in mind, as that is the most reasonable amount that will happen.
I disagree that that is reasonable. It's reasonable to disregard crits in most circumstances, but that's because there is only a ~4.167% chance of getting a crit. But the chance of getting 4 or 5 hits is 30%, that is a very significant likelihood even if it isn't more likely to happen than it is to not happen and you'd be shooting yourself in the foot if you didn't take that into consideration.

Most Pokemon that would be consistent answers for Smokomodo are not majorly pressured by the addition of Bone Rush (save for Arghonaut, which relies on favourable rolls and not being Toxic'd to even do so.) Especially since Smoko has a nice array of coverage options. Also why are pretending that Zygarde is a sound threat that can be considered a solid switch in when calcs like this exist

4 SpA Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 248-292 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 322-380 (79.7 - 94%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

You can't even argue that Hidden Power Ice is fringe coverage that may or may not be ran - HP Ice will be as standard as standard can be, and wrecklessly switching in a Zygarde in hopes of setting up or forcing it out is a fool's errand. So I consider that argument null and void. Other Pokemon that can be brought that BR potentially screws over is also laughed at by, while probably less prominent, but still very much viable coverage options (Pyroak and Clef are eliminated by Gunk Shot and Storm Throw laughs at Chansey).
To be honest, I wasn't thinking of HP Ice while I was doing those calcs, but my argument doesn't really stand on that matchup in particular, it's just an example of a situation that could happen and I couldn't really be bothered to do more than one because of the extra math involved in working out the probabilities. My point is that there are Pokemon that would hypothetically be able to switch into and survive an EQ, either survive a second or outspeed Smokomodo, then KO it. That wouldn't be guaranteed to be able to do that if it was carrying Bone Rush. So I'll find another example I guess.

So Pajantom is faster than Smokomodo and would force it out if it switched in:
252 Atk Pajantom Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Numel: 438-516 (138.1 - 162.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pajantom Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Numel: 369-435 (116.4 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pajantom Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Numel: 308-364 (97.1 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

In addition, if needed, Pajantom could switch directly into an Earthquake from Smokomodo and live in a pinch:
252 Atk Earth Plate Numel Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 240-283 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even if it's holding a LO, though Pajantom has to be at full health to be guaranteed to live:
252 Atk Life Orb Numel Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 261-308 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This becomes much riskier if Smokomodo has Bone Rush instead:
252 Atk Earth Plate Technician Numel Tackle vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 91-108 (29.3 - 34.8%) -- 8.3% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Numel Tackle vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 97-114 (31.2 - 36.7%) -- 71.5% chance to 3HKO
The risk of that first calc can be rounded off to 4 hits, which is a 30% Chance while the second one is roughly a 50% chance. (Tackle was given the ground type and 25BP in the damage calc to show the individual number of hits required to KO)

This example in particular may be unlikely, but scenarios like it happen all the time in matches. When you can't sack any of your Pokemon and need to switch in something that can deal with it, you want to know that doing so won't throw away the match. It's bad enough when you have to do this and then get crit, this is way more likely than a crit.

You overstate the roll that Bullet Seed's "uncompetitiveness" had in the banning of Breloom. Biggest parts of the discussion is just how hard Breloom hit, the fact that it could easily SD and remove even more of its "switchins", just how broken perfectly accurate Sleep was and the fact that it could run a very different set that required very different counterplay. Smoko most likely won't have such vastly different sets that require different approaches to beating it, it will most likely have a few trade offs thanks to its wide coverage. Many solid checks like Mega Latios, Tomohawk and Fat Zapdos can still be ran to handle Smokomodo, and Bteloom also had zero oppurtunity cost to just click Bullet Seed, as it was strong enough to grant reasonable chip to even resists and had no other negative drawbacks. Bone Rush's immunity, coupled with its chance to miss, makes it a lot riskier to just blindly click.
I don't think I overstated Bullet Seed's role in Brelooms banning. The reasoning given for the suspect test was:
A big part of the equation is Spore, which makes switching into Breloom always a risky endeavor. Furthermore, Breloom's damage potential is extremely high: a LO 5-hit Technician Bullet Seed, while rare, hits even harder than CB Victini's V-Create or Medicham-Mega's High Jump Kick. The threat of Spore or a high roll Bullet Seed can make Breloom extremely hard to reliably counter. Breloom also has access to some underutilized sets that can help punish some of its usual answers, most notably Poison Heal Facade.
Multiple people echoed similar sentiments in the thread. It may not have been the only or even the most significant factor, but it was still one of the most significant factors in its banning. Also, I thought it was strongly implied in my post that Breloom is not a great comparison anyways due to the multiple differences between the two Pokemon.

Its not about actively adding RNG, its primarily about giving Smokomodo a strong but not broken attack to utilize well with Technician. You haven't really put forward a an argument to soundly say for sure that Bone Rush is broken, and I can show that Smoko's "counters" that are placed under more pressure with BR are pressured just as much if not more than its multiple coverage options.

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 221-260 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 156-186 (35.2 - 41.9%) -- approx. 90% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (4 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 208-248 (46.9 - 55.9%) -- approx. 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(Needs 5 fits to actually outdamage Gunk Shot and actually 2hko it)
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 260-310 (58.6 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I never said and I don't believe it is broken. Uncompetitive does not mean broken. Just because it still has defensive answers doesn't mean it is competitive. Critical hits are uncompetitive, but there are still plenty of defensive mons that can survive multiple critical hits from the Pokemon they are able to counter. Almost any RNG is uncompetitive in nature (aside from stall situations where the extremely high number of turns makes luck less significant), but Bone Rush is particularly egregious because of its wide amount of and likelihood of variance. Also, we shouldn't add moves on a whim for the sake of fitting the concept, especially when this mon is already balanced on a knife's edge.
Flavour is subjective, but I do admit that the flavour reasoning for Smokomodo getting Bone Rush is sketchy. As I said, the addition was mainly for competitive reasons (Do not worry, cbrevan said it was ok to add it if I so choose). But to shine light on the stuff about said "scavengers" you listed, Bears, rats and seagulls are not known to actively scavenge carcasses at all, and will eat the carcass as common as any predator might stumble across it. Hyenas are a bit more precarious, but it is known that the thought that Hyenas are just scavengers is a myth, since they are apex predators who actively hunt and source most of their food in this manner, even having higher hunt success rates than lions. Komodos on the other hand are well documented on their scavenging, as while they are ambush hunters, scavenging is a very big part of their diet.
Fair point on the list of scavengers, it forced me to do a bit more research which led me to finding this:
Note that the only obligate vertebrate scavengers just so happen to be vultures, the design inspiration for Mandibuzz. So yes, those Pokemon I listed aren't creatures that rely on scavenging to survive, but neither does the komodo dragon. They are all opportunistic hunters. I don't think this distinction is why Mandibuzz gets bone rush though, I think it is purely based on the fact that it has a bone in its design. Of course the reason it has the bone in its design is because it is a scavenger, but there isn't a direct link from scavenger to the move Bone Rush. So since there is no bone in Smokomodo's design and it also has no mystical connection to the afterlife, I'll have to agree that the flavor reasoning is sketchy at best and conclude that it is not a good flavor move.
 

cbrevan

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#64
First off, I'd like to thank everyone who's been involved with this thread. I'm extremely pleased with the number and quality of the submissions we've had, its clear that everyone put in a lot of work to make Smokomodo as realistic as possible.

Getting onto business, our final slate consists of:
Deck Knight
Dogfish44
Frostbiyt
G-Luke
Granny Pie
HeatEdgeSword
iFeedback
Madsi6
pokehimon
wadusher


Every submission that lacked Final Submission at the top of their post was disqualified. MaahirMomtaz12's submission was disqualified because of a lack of reasoning behind their submission.

Once our TL reachzero gives his approval for this slate we'll move onto polling.
 
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