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CAP 25 - Part 9 - CAP 25f Moveset Discussion

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What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen offensive direction?

Given that 25f's amazing neutral coverage frees it from having much 4-moveslot syndrome (especially if we aren't going to give it Rock Tomb), I would like to bring up the potential for 25f as an offensive hazard setter. I think it'd be healthy for the metagame because 25f will have poor match-ups against some of the utility mons that are supposed to provide hazard control, especially Fidgit, defensive Tomohawk, defog Latios/as, and tanky Colossoil sets. A Fire/Ground type being a threatening Stealth Rock or Spikes setter might help with Fidgit's viability and bring diversity to some of the defensive cores in the meta. 25f will also have decent match-ups vs Sticky Web setters like Necturna and Ribombee, making it a fun and potentially unique lead for balance and offense teams. The interaction of Flame Charge being able to simultaneously break opposing Focus Sash and then enable 25f to outspeed other leads could create healthy prediction-based matchups. I think it's at least worth considering and debating.

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Technician?

On another hopefully not-too-contradictory note, I do support giving 25f Rock Tomb. I think that is one of the main coverage moves that is appealing given 25g's typing and ability, which is supposed to have amazing synergy with its movepool. A 75 base power Flame Charge and a 90 base power Bulldoze are not exactly fulfilling the expectations of this concept in my opinion. After all, Moxie Gyarados is a sweeper, not a defensive counter, and it still lives a Life Orb and Technician-boosted Rock Tomb. Defensive Pelipper lives the same attack even after rocks and OHKOs with an uninvested Scald. And 25f is going to have a terrible match-up against any team with Pelipper anyway. Given the opportunity cost of running Rock Tomb, since it can't fit on a set with Flame Charge/Fire move/Ground move/Hidden Power, being able to take out weakened versions of Gyarados and Pelipper is hardly going to break the metagame.

Frankly, 25f will face a lot of counters that can live a neutral hit and outdamage it in return. Arghonaut, Pyroak, Tomohawk, Mega Latias, and Rotom-W will pretty much stop this attacker in its tracks. And offensive teams will have Stratagem, Latios, powerful priority users such as Battle Bond Greninja, and common scarfers that will outspeed 25f even at +1. So we shouldn't be afraid to give 25f a good Technician-boosted Rock move. That's part of the nature of Technician as an ability: it powers up weaker utility and coverage moves. So Rock Tomb is a healthy and pro-concept way to enable 25f to occasionally sweep.
 
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We've gotten a good number of suggestions on potential moves and roles for us to pursue with CAP 25wf. From our discussion, I feel comfortable going forward with moveset submissions knowing the general directions we can pursue. I'll include a short summary of moves that have been brought up to help kickstart moveset discussion and provide a general reference point for our opening discussion.

Multi-hit moves, primarily Bone Rush and Bonemerang: Technician procs with each hit, so the base damage of these moves are drastically increased. Several posters seem skeptical of relying on a luck based STAB move in Bone Rush, while support for Bonemerang seems split as people either think it enables wallbreaking or overpowers our defensive checks.

Speed control (Bulldoze, Rock Tomb, Flame Charge): Speed control has been brought up because all three work with Technician, and are the some of the most impactful moves Technician affects. I'm most interested to see a breakdown of how movesets with these moves will affect our threatlist.

Hidden Power: Hidden Power has been noted for giving CAP 25f a way to get past would be checks and counters, specifically HP Ice reliably beating Landorus-t and Zygarde.

Flame Wheel, Flare Blitz: Flame Wheel has been presented as a reliable Fire STAB that makes use of Technician. Flare Blitz has been referenced and has been challenged as to whether or not it should be assumed on CAP 25f.

Priority moves: Brought up as an option to utilize Technician. Ice Shard and Accelrock have been disupted for disrupting our threatlist.

Keep in mind that this is just a quick summary of the last three days of discussion, and that this list will have no bearing on what movesets are accept and moves disallowed. This is just to give people an idea of what to experiment with.

Now, onto moveset submissions. Moveset submissions are now open. Read the rest of this post before you make them. A large range of moves have been brought up, now its our job to see how they perform in a moveset. We will examine each moveset based on concept fulfillment, how it interacts with our threatlist, general balance, and if it is true to our chosen direction. By doing so, we'll be able to evaluate what movesets work, which do not, and what moves should be disallowed. To go over these factors further:

Concept will be one of our primary focuses, as it is important that we have main sets that synergize with our ability in order for us to explore our concept. The bulk of discussion up till now has been on how to achieve this.

We also need to keep in mind our decision to make CAP 25f an offensive Pokemon. Please keep this in mind when considering moveset submissions that include utility options.

Our third and fourth considerations will be our threatlist and overall balance. I mention these two together because they are closely related to eachother. I'll define balance for this stage as having counterplay and an appropriate number of checks and counters. If a moveset allows this CAP to run over the existing metagame, I cannot allow it. We're going to be stuck with our creations until the end of the CAP metagame, so I'll be giving overall balance an equal priority as concept fulfillment. Moreover, this definition works well because it allows us to use our threatlist as a measuring stick in deciding if a moveset puts too much of a strain on the balance of this CAP. Make sure you provide relevant damage calcs for every moveset submitted. Damage calculations are some of the best pieces of evidence you can provide when theorymonning, so don't neglect them.

On a related note, Quanyails has done us a great favor and is hosting a test server for all three CAPs at http://quanyails.asuscomm.com.psim.us
This means that for CAP 25, we'll be able to do more than blatant theorymon every moveset. I encourage everyone to get onto the server when they have time and test out any movesets submitted or planned. This server will also save replays as long as you hit the "Download Replay" button. I'm excited to see how people make use of this opportunity.
 
Moveset Submission

Name: Offensive Anti-Lead
Move 1: Stealth Rock
Move 2: Flame Charge
Move 3: Bulldoze
Move 4: HP Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Focus Sash
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Hasty
  • Stealth Rock allows 25f to set up important hazards to benefit its team with chip damage and breaking enemy Focus Sash and Sturdy.
  • Flame Charge hits opposing leads weak to Fire-type moves, such as Necturna and Kitsunoh, for good damage. It can also be used against faster opposing leads like scarf Landorus to simultaneously chip the foe and boost Speed, allowing 25f to use Stealth Rock or another attacking move on the second turn.
  • Bulldoze is a more powerful STAB option that has excellent neutral coverage alongside Flame Charge and can cripple faster leads or offensive switch-ins, giving 25f a speed advantage.
  • Hidden Power Ice is an ideal coverage move to take on Landorus, and to a lesser extent Zygarde.
  • Technician would boost all three of the attacking moves on this set, each of which brings a combination of damage and utility that could be critical for various match-ups with opposing leads.
  • Focus Sash guarantees at least one turn to set up Stealth Rock and can give 25f a chance to win additional turns thanks to its speed control options.
  • Jolly is the preferred nature to outspeed and threaten to OHKO common Pokemon like Volkraken, Naviathan, and Jumbao. Hasty is an option for more mixed damage if we are running HP Ice, although Flame Charge into Hidden Power would always 2HKO offensive Landorus anyway.
  • Offensive Lead 25f would probably fit best on balance and bulky offense teams that appreciate its ability to immediately pressure hyper offense. A teammate with Rapid Spin would be invaluable since this 25f lacks a reliable way to prevent opposing hazards.
  • This set would perform best against hyper offense teams that rely on effective suicide leads to function. These teams may also lack a way to reliably eliminate Stealth Rock. This set may struggle against bulkier teams due to its lack of a powerful Fire-type STAB move.
Instead of a sweeper or wallbreaker, I decided to submit a potentially unorthodox set to introduce some debate about a possible fun and viable off-build. I appreciate everyone's patience as this is my first moveset submission and I know it's a little wordy. So thanks for reading! :]

Edit: removed Rock Tomb due to feedback.

Edit 2: removed Bone Rush because I don't think we need the added raw power... Bone Rush allows us to 2HKO a lot of things, like Arghonaut, that should be able to switch in on us. Added Bulldoze because it has great coverage with Flame Charge and can also function as solid speed control.
 
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Moveset Submission

Name: Broken All Out Attacker 1
Move 1: Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Rock Tomb
Move 4: HP Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 212 Atk / 44 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty
  • Flame Wheel with a Life Orb does almost as much as Flare Blitz with no boost
  • Earthquake is all but guaranteed and 25f's most powerful STAB move on this set
  • Rock Tomb offers speed control as well as good coverage
  • HP Ice hits common Pokemon such as Landorus-T and Zygarde
  • 44 SpA with a neutral nature ensures an OHKO on defensive Lando

The most contentious part of this moveset will be Rock Tomb for two reasons. One: it messes with our checks and counters, and two: it offers speed control. I'm gonna try to make a post on speed control at some point, but first I'm just going to examine how this move affects our checks and counters, especially when paired with HP Ice.

Landorus-Therian
Choice Scarf
44 SpA Life Orb Technician 25f Hidden Power Ice vs. 80 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-Therian: 426-504 (125.6 - 148.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
148 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP 25F: 510-602 (157.8 - 186.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Cannot switch in on either HP Ice or Rock Tomb safely(because of the speed drop), but does revenge kill 25f

Defensive
44 SpA Life Orb Technician 25f Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 385-458 (100.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP 25F: 458-540 (141.7 - 167.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

25f can't switch into this set, but otherwise does beat it

Z/Suicide Lead
44 SpA Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 385-458 (120.6 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP 25F: 546-644 (169 - 199.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Again, 25f can't safely switch in, but it does otherwise beat this set unless it has a focus sash
These calcs primarily show the power of HP Ice and that it removes Lando as a counter

Mega Latios
Mega Mixed Attacker
44 SpA Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 151-179 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212 Atk Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 114-135 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Latios-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP 25F: 280-330 (86.6 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Latios-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP 25F: 306-360 (96.5 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

(50.1 - 59.4%) + (37.8 - 44.8%) = (87.9 - 104.2%) That is a guaranteed KO after Rocks if M-Latios switches in on a Rock Tomb
Rock Tomb makes it possible for 25f to take no damage from M-Latios, which would not be the case with just HP Ice

Mega Latias
Mega Calm Mind
44 SpA Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 114-135 (31.3 - 37%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
212 Atk Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 97-116 (26.6 - 31.8%) -- 52.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0 SpA Latias-Mega Stored Power (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP 25F: 160-189 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Latias-Mega Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP 25F: 354-417 (111.6 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In a 1v1, this depends on the rolls of Rock Tomb. If M-Latias can get one Calm Mind and two Stored Power's, then it will win, but since Rock Tomb has a chance to 3HKO after Rocks and lowers speed, 25f may be able to KO it before Latias gets the last hit off. Neither can safely switch into the other though, as Latias getting a CM off on the switch or 25f hitting it with Rock Tomb or HP ice on the switch swings the matchup. The one thing I didn't bring into this is Recover which would probably swing the matchup towards Latias in most cases.

Roost + 3 Attacks
44 SpA Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 114-135 (31.3 - 37%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
212 Atk Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 97-116 (26.6 - 31.8%) -- 52.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Latias-Mega Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP 25F: 428-504 (135 - 158.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This one Latias wins
Our best(only) counter so far, but Rock Tomb might still cause problems with this matchup

Gyarados
Dragon Dance Sweeper
212 Atk Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 278-330 (83.9 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP 25F: 328-386 (101.5 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gyarados can't switch in safely, loses 1v1 if it has SR damage, but wins at full health, and prevents 25f from switching in as EQ, Waterfall, and SSSS all KO

Mega Dragon Dance
-1 212 Atk Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 187-221 (56.4 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 212 Atk Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados-Mega: 71-84 (21.4 - 25.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 212 Atk Life Orb CAP 25F Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados-Mega: 118-140 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(56.4 - 66.7%) + (35.6 - 42.2%) = (92 - 108.9%) Gyarados cannot safely switch in, but because of the uncertainty of the mega evolution, 25f is not guaranteed to win even if it hits it with rock tomb on the switch. In a 1v1 though, Gyarados wins and 25f can't switch in.
Another mon that cannot safely switch in because of Rock Tomb

Pelipper
Defensive
212 Atk Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 36+ Def Pelipper: 203-239 (62.8 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Pelipper Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP 25F in Rain: 612-724 (189.4 - 224.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Pelipper beats 25f in a 1v1 but cannot safely switch in

Choice Specs
212 Atk Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pelipper: 229-270 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP 25F in Rain: 1756-2068 (543.6 - 640.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

25f can't switch in, but it does beat Pelipper otherwise
Rock Tomb removes what would be 25f's best counter

Tomohawk
Defensive Support
44 SpA Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 190-226 (45.8 - 54.5%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP 25F: 112-133 (34.6 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Tomohawk Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP 25F: 165-195 (51 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rock Tomb isn't really relevant to this calc, but HP Ice does threaten Tomohawk, but it should still be able to spam Roost to let Life Orb damage take out 25f

Offensive Support
44 SpA Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tomohawk: 192-229 (54.5 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Tomohawk Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP 25F: 265-312 (82 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tomohawk Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP 25F: 286-339 (88.5 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tomohawk Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP 25F: 340-402 (105.2 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This Tomo set is a bit frailer, but still could use the same roost spam strategy as defensive if it switches into HP Ice
With HP Ice, Tomo isn't a great counter, although Prankster Roost does help the matchup since it removes Tomo's flying type for the turn

Pyroak
Defensive
212 Atk Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 161-190 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pyroak Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP 25F: 152-180 (47 - 55.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Pyroak will have trouble coming in multiple times in a match especially with hazards up, but it can threaten 25f with Earth Power and can heal damage with Synthesis
Not that great of a check, but it can sometimes force 25f out or spam Synthesis

Arghonaut
Support
212 Atk Life Orb CAP 25F Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Arghonaut: 175-207 (42.2 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Arghonaut Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP 25F: 240-284 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Better than Pyroak, but still has a hard time if it takes a lot of chip damage throughout the match
Rock Tomb and HP Ice don't affect this matchup

Pajantom
Z Crystal Nuke
212 Atk Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Rock Tomb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 152-179 (49 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
212 Atk Life Orb CAP 25F Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 253-298 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pajantom Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP 25F: 342-404 (105.8 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not a defensive check as it can't reliably switch in to EQ or Rock Tomb, but it does force 25f out with EQ or any of its Z Moves

Rat With Wings Special
212 Atk Life Orb CAP 25F Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 253-298 (68 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Pajantom Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP 25F: 169-201 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

25f can't switch in safely, but beats this set otherwise
Pajantom is only an offensive threat to 25f

Mega Aerodactyl
All Out Attacker
212 Atk Life Orb Technician CAP 25F Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 263-309 (87.3 - 102.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP 25F: 346-408 (107.1 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even if Rocks aren't up, Aerodactyl can't switch in to Rock Tomb as it does bring it below 25f's speed
Just like Pajantom, offensive check only

Mega Swampert
Rain Sweeper
212 Atk Life Orb CAP 25F Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 175-207 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0- Def CAP 25F: 984-1164 (304.6 - 360.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

HP Ice and Rock Tomb don't affect this matchup. Pert can switch in once and beat 25f in the rain, otherwise switching in is risky
Not as frail as Pajantom or Aerodactyl, but still primarily an offensive threat

Chansey
212 Atk Life Orb CAP 25F Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 253-298 (36 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP CAP 25F: 100-100 (30.9 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Not much to say for this matchup, not a great counter, but not bad either

With Ground/Fire/Rock/Ice attacks, we are left with few counters and most are only able to counter because they have recovery which they basically have to spam in order to beat this set. I think Rock Tomb would be far too powerful for 25f to have

I also put together an importable for 25f's checks and counters so that you can import them into the damage calc, select "Only show imported sets", then you no longer have to search for the sets or manually enter them. https://pokepast.es/a2705fe1f052f39f
Some sets were combined to make calcing easier and some mons have move combos that they normally wouldn't so that multiple sets didn't need to be added to cover all of them.
 
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Moveset Submission

Name: First Uber CAP
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Bulldoze
Move 3: Powder Snow
Move 4: Hidden Power [Electric]
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Flare Blitz gives slightly more damage than Flame Wheel. Also has recoil, which I think is good in order to balance out CAP25f. It makes it "limited" to a certain number of uses.
  • Bulldoze is CAP25f's other STAB. This was chosen as the speed control move for a simple reason: it affects the opponent. Flame Charge can potentially mess with our checks, as the speed boost will be mantained, what doesn't happen with Bulldoze if the opponent faints.
  • Technician-boosted Powder Snow has the same base power of a non-Technician boosted Hidden Power [Ice]. It provides CAP25f the possibility of running an extra Hidden Power type and still 2HKOes defensive Landorus-T and Choice Band Zygarde after Stealth Rock.
  • HP Electric hits Pelipper and Gyarados.

Some damage calculations:

0- SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Powder Snow vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 192-229 (53.6 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0- SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Powder Snow vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 218-260 (57 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0- SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Powder Snow vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 88-104 (29.2 - 34.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0- SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 270-322 (81.5 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

0- SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 228 SpD Pelipper: 276-328 (85.4 - 101.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

This moveset is tricky. But I'd like to advocate for it. All previous moveset submissions have been using Rock-type coverage moves like Rock Tomb, which will mess with Pelipper and Gyarados as counters for CAP25f. So I decided to add Hidden Power [Electric] and Powder Snow to give CAP25f a wider coverage.
Being able to hit the whole metagame super-effectively is a job that has been done by other pokemon in the past and is being done right now. Mawile-mega, Hoopa-Unbound and Kyurem-Black, for example, have no reliable switch-ins, as the whole metagame is threatened by their wide coverage - so they mostly rely on checks. CAP25f could join these pokemon in this role of wallbreaker with wide coverage.
 
Moveset Submission (WIP)

Name: Hidden Power Lead
Move 1: Stealth Rock
Move 2: Fire Blast / Incinerate
Move 3: Mud Shot
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Electric
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA/ 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest

It may seem insane to take a 'mon with 116 attack and make a special-attacking set, but hear me out! As one of the few 'mons in the game with access to Technician Hidden Power and a usable 88 Special Attack stat, 25f has the incredible ability to be an extremely unpredictable and hard to counter lead.

SET DETAILS:
  • Stealth Rock allows 25f to capitalize on its unpredictability and offensive presence and set up an important hazard.
  • Fire Blast is the preferred Fire STAB, crucial for earning the OHKO on a variety of Ground neutral or resistant 'mons such as Skarmory, Celesteela, M-Scizor, Cawmodore, and Ferrothorn. Incinerate is an alternative option with greater accuracy and PP as well as occasional fringe utility in destroying berries, but the drop in power is noticeable and loses the guaranteed OHKO against SR Jirachi and Celesteela while also worsening our match-up against Zapdos and Clefable (who we may fail to 2HKO).
  • Mud Shot's base 55 power may seem underwhelming, but with Technician it still nets the key OHKOs against much of what we want to hit that we can't hit with a fire move - it will easily OHKO the many 4x weak Pokemon we want to threaten such as Heatran, Plasmanta, M-Crucibelle, Magnezone, and Mollux and with our investment and LO, we also OHKO all Tapu Koko sets and have a 75% chance to OHKO Fidgit. The speed drop is also occasionally useful in altering some match-ups and it makes the move fairly spammable since many 'mons switching into it will be outsped and KOd on a second hit (such as any Tapu Fini, Greninja not running Water Shuriken and Kerfluffle).
  • Hidden Power is the real star of the set, and the choice of Hidden Power is crucial. Either option helps us immensely in pressuring Tomohawk, Tornadus-T, and M-Aerodactyl, so the choice is a matter of what counters you'd like 25f to beat. Hidden Power Ice is generally preferred, as it allows us to absolutely demolish Landorus-T and Zygarde (two EXTREMELY common counters in the meta) as well as Gliscor. It also improves our Zapdos matchup, allowing us to kill it with our HP and save our Fire Blasts for more pressing concerns, and allows us to lure and kill Salamence which otherwise kills us. Finally, while we still die to the Lati@s, it does allow us to heavily cripple them and then switch out, which is a powerful option. Hidden Power Electric is also perfectly valid, however, allowing us to nuke Pelipper and Gyarados (which would otherwise be hard counters to us). It also allows us to beat Defensive Tapu Fini and heavily punish Azumarill. Given the heavy neutral damage we can deal to Zygarde and Landorus-T, it is certainly correct to run HP: Electric to beat our true counters. The joy of the set is the unpredictability, forcing opponents to play around both options until they know which you are running.
  • A modest nature was chosen to maximize nuking power. A timid nature outspeeds Zapdos to prevent chip damage, but doesn't otherwise alter any matchups enough to make a difference.
CHECKS AND COUNTERS:
  • Very little truly counters us, as we heavily maim even things that can kill us, thus warding off switch-ins. For example, Landorus-T is immune to Mud Shot and HP: Electric but is super OHKOd by HP Ice, and still takes 75% from a Fire Blast on the switch and is outsped by us. Zygarde has a 54% to be 2HKO'd by Mud Shot if rocks are already up, and certainly doesn't appreciate the heavy damage and -2 speed.
  • That being said, of course our choice of HP influences this. We can maim but not outright beat Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Zygarde if we don't pack HP: Ice, and we just straight up lose to Pelipper and Gyarados without HP: Electric. We are OHKOd by M-Latios regardless of our choices and can't OHKO it back even with HP Ice.
  • We do have some real counters though. Arghonaut is a true counter, laughing off even HP Electric and clean OHKOing with Aqua Jet.
  • Gastrodon effortlessly beats us, and M-Swampert can beat us in the rain as it outspeeds us even at -1 from a Mud Shot on the switch.
  • As a special attacking set, we have no hope against pink blobs such as Chansey and Blissey.
  • We also have no way to muscle past Pyroak or Slowking, who often carry the coverage to clean OHKO us.
  • Assault Vest Colossoil can tank any hit we dish out, even multiple HP: Ice, and OHKO us with Earthquake.
  • Finally, Levitate Stratagem only takes 52% at maximum from our attacks and OHKOs us with Earth Power and its blistering speed.
  • In terms of checks, anything with a speed greater than 293 and water or ground coverage scares us away, specifically Scarf Volkraken, Salamence, and Greninja. We also lose to anything that commonly carries water-based priority (Greninja again, but also Azumarill).

OTHER OPTIONS:
  • We can run any Hidden Power we want, but most other options aren't relevant. HP: Poison does more reliably OHKO Jumbao and wear down Clefable, but not in a way that makes it worth utilizing. HP: Grass can be a great way to sucker-punch and kill Gastrodon and M-Swampert, but is not worth the sacrifices in other match-ups. HP: Rock preserves many of the match-ups while also netting a OHKO on M-Charizard and Volcarona, but Volc takes heavy damage from Fire Blast and Charizard takes heavy damage from HP: Electric which carries other, more important benefits besides.
=======================
I wanted to see if Hidden Power was as scary as they say. Draw your own conclusions. Calcs in spoilers, more to come:
252+ SpA Life Orb Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 238-281 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 520-614 (136.1 - 160.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Mud Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 645-764 (228.7 - 270.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Mud Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 374-439 (133 - 156.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Mud Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Fidgit: 354-421 (89.8 - 106.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Mud Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 562-660 (173.9 - 204.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Mud Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Plasmanta: 598-707 (228.2 - 269.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Mud Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 118-140 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Mud Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 195-230 (68.4 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Mud Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kerfluffle: 164-192 (53 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Mud Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham-Mega: 168-199 (64.3 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
Moveset submission

Name: Z-move wallbreaker
Move 1: Flare blitz
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Substitute
Move 4: Swords dance / Fire punch
Ability: Blaze
Item: Firium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

This may be a meme but here goes...
  • Flare blitz is the cornerstone of this set, providing the strongest STAB move available to it and reducing the number of substitutes needed to get into blaze range through recoil.
  • Earthquake is the obvious choice for a ground STAB.
  • Substitute eases prediction vs offense, giving situational switch-ins like Mega Crucibelle a hard time vs this set, while blocking Sucker Punch from the likes of Mega Mawile and Colossoil as well as various status moves. Its also the most consistent way of dropping this set's HP into blaze range.
  • Swords dance, while contentious, is 25F's best shot at wallbreaking with or without blaze. If we miss out on it, it may be replaced with Fire Punch.
  • Firium Z allows for a one time recoil-free nuke in Inferno Overdrive, which plows through nearly everything that does not resist it, and even some that do after rocks like levitate Stratagem and Gyarados
  • Blaze offers a boost at 33% HP that notably cannot be hazed by the likes of Tomohawk, and can be set up on targets where a swords dance would be unsafe, such as Glare Zygarde.

I'd like to advocate for this set as I believe 25f is the only one of the starter trio that can viably run its pinch ability, simply because technician is only slightly better than blaze, not orders of magnitude better like Galvanize and Poison heal on their respective starters, which gives Blaze a niche. While swords dance may understandably be a bit much, the rest of the set should still be allowed to exist as a niche option.
+1 252 Atk Camerupt Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 334-394 (87.4 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Camerupt Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Araquanid-Totem: 385-454 (99.7 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Blaze Camerupt Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 376-444 (95.4 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Blaze Camerupt Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 304-358 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Camerupt Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 399-469 (90 - 105.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Camerupt Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 757-892 (107.8 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Blaze Camerupt Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 261-307 (78.8 - 92.7%)
 
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Pelipper and Gyarados are one of our few actual "counters", and preserving their interaction with CAPf is vital. Also, Flyinium Z Gyarados does not run Intimidate, which is the Gyarados that should be countering CAPf.

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 286-338 (86.4 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Pelipper: 208-247 (64.3 - 76.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Nice counters mate

I clearly said checks. Those are also not the most common spreads in CAP according to usage statistics for Gyarados and Pelipper. Though, Gyarados is near 50/50 on offensive and bulky-ish sets, and should be supported with hazard control regardless imo.

This thing can always run HP Electric anyway. "Nice counters mate" just illustrates flaws in the checks and counters process when we think 2 mons with a Stealth Rock weakness and a 4x weakness (and ability to be KO'd after rocks by a LO 180 BP move) should be counters and not checks (which they are even with Rock Tomb).

The checks and counters list does not specify whether or not these two should be checks or counters. They are also not established as switch ins. So I really fail to see how Rock Tomb messes with Gyarados and Pelipper as checks, especially when we are giving it Technician HP Electric anyways.

The lines we are drawing seem really arbitrary at this point.
 
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I clearly said checks. Those are also not the most common spreads in CAP according to usage statistics for Gyarados and Pelipper. Though, Gyarados is near 50/50 on offensive and bulky-ish sets, and should be supported with hazard control regardless imo.

This thing can always run HP Electric anyway. "Nice counters mate" just illustrates flaws in the checks and counters process when we think 2 mons with a Stealth Rock weakness and a 4x weakness (and ability to be KO'd after rocks by a LO 180 BP move) should be counters and not checks (which they are even with Rock Tomb).

The checks and counters list does not specify whether or not these two should be checks or counters. They are also not established as switch ins. So I really fail to see how Rock Tomb messes with Gyarados and Pelipper as checks, especially when we are giving it Technician HP Electric anyways.

The lines we are drawing seem really arbitrary at this point.
Please look at the calcs in my previous post and tell me how Rock Tomb is not broken. Also, the fact that 25f can run HP Electric to defeat Peli and Gyara doesn't mean rock coverage is OK, because in that case 25f has to give up HP ice in order to run that. With Rock Tomb, it can run both it and HP Ice.
 
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I clearly said checks. Those are also not the most common spreads in CAP according to usage statistics for Gyarados and Pelipper. Though, Gyarados is near 50/50 on offensive and bulky-ish sets, and should be supported with hazard control regardless imo.

This thing can always run HP Electric anyway. "Nice counters mate" just illustrates flaws in the checks and counters process when we think 2 mons with a Stealth Rock weakness and a 4x weakness (and ability to be KO'd after rocks by a LO 180 BP move) should be counters and not checks (which they are even with Rock Tomb).

The checks and counters list does not specify whether or not these two should be checks or counters. They are also not established as switch ins. So I really fail to see how Rock Tomb messes with Gyarados and Pelipper as checks, especially when we are giving it Technician HP Electric anyways.

The lines we are drawing seem really arbitrary at this point.

You dropping a move that neuters the few natural counters this Pokemon has and then justifying that you said they are supposed to be checks is just pure bullshit. Just because a mon can run a lure, which cripples its match ups against a lot of other mons doesn't mean we should give it coverage that that just removes them from the equation. Based on your logic, its fair to give this Frost Breath, since it can run HP Ice right?

Plasmanta and Cawmordore has higher usage statistics than both of those Pokemon, and they are both kinda trash, so using ladder usage to justify anything is bad.
 
Moveset submission

Name: Z-move wallbreaker
Move 1: Flare blitz
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Substitute
Move 4: Swords dance / Fire punch
Ability: Blaze
Item: Firium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

This may be a meme but here goes...
  • Flare blitz is the cornerstone of this set, providing the strongest STAB move available to it and reducing the number of substitutes needed to get into blaze range through recoil.
  • Earthquake is the obvious choice for a ground STAB.
  • Substitute eases prediction vs offense, giving situational switch-ins like Mega Crucibelle a hard time vs this set, while blocking Sucker Punch from the likes of Mega Mawile and Colossoil as well as various status moves. Its also the most consistent way of dropping this set's HP into blaze range.
  • Swords dance, while contentious, is 25F's best shot at wallbreaking with or without blaze. If we miss out on it, it may be replaced with Fire Punch.
  • Firium Z allows for a one time recoil-free nuke in Inferno Overdrive, which plows through nearly everything that does not resist it, and even some that do after rocks like levitate Stratagem and Gyarados
  • Blaze offers a boost at 33% HP that notably cannot be hazed by the likes of Tomohawk, and can be set up on targets where a swords dance would be unsafe, such as Glare Zygarde.

I'd like to advocate for this set as I believe 25f is the only one of the starter trio that can viably run its pinch ability, simply because technician is only slightly better than blaze, not orders of magnitude better like Galvanize and Poison heal on their respective starters, which gives Blaze a niche. While swords dance may understandably be a bit much, the rest of the set should still be allowed to exist as a niche option.
+1 252 Atk Camerupt Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 334-394 (87.4 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Camerupt Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Araquanid-Totem: 385-454 (99.7 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Blaze Camerupt Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 376-444 (95.4 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Blaze Camerupt Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 304-358 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Camerupt Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 399-469 (90 - 105.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Camerupt Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 757-892 (107.8 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Blaze Camerupt Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 261-307 (78.8 - 92.7%)

This is exactly why Flare Blitz and Earthquake need to be disallowed. Which move on this set takes advantage of Technician? None of them. This is as anti-concept as it gets.

If we have these moves, we will run these moves. And then we have no reason to care at all about Technician, which is the ENTIRE FREAKING POINT of this project.

Please please consider this as we move forward, y’all.
 
This is exactly why Flare Blitz and Earthquake need to be disallowed. Which move on this set takes advantage of Technician? None of them. This is as anti-concept as it gets.

If we have these moves, we will run these moves. And then we have no reason to care at all about Technician, which is the ENTIRE FREAKING POINT of this project.

Please please consider this as we move forward, y’all.
Earthquake I'll give to you (that's why you include that as an option with either bone move, wink wink notch notch), but I see no issue with Flare Blitz, given Flame Wheel will only get us up to base 90. I'm on the wallbreaker train for this mon personally, and Flare Blitz from what I've seen thus far does not single handedly break this mon. What could is how much coverage we give it outside of HP.
 
This is exactly why Flare Blitz and Earthquake need to be disallowed. Which move on this set takes advantage of Technician? None of them. This is as anti-concept as it gets.

If we have these moves, we will run these moves. And then we have no reason to care at all about Technician, which is the ENTIRE FREAKING POINT of this project.

Please please consider this as we move forward, y’all.
I'm not saying we shouldn't care about technician, I'm saying technician's existence is no reason to throw blaze under the bus. I don't see anything wrong or anti-concept with a technician set running flare blitz next to, say bulldoze and HP Ice, or indeed the bone moves. Also, just because I posted a blaze set doesn't mean its anti-concept - I already talked about how there's nothing stopping our concept from encompassing both abilities. Earthquake is also completely neutral towards the concept - even at 10 less BP bulldoze is far superior and more likely to be used, making it a non-issue.
 
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This is exactly why Flare Blitz and Earthquake need to be disallowed. Which move on this set takes advantage of Technician? None of them. This is as anti-concept as it gets.

If we have these moves, we will run these moves. And then we have no reason to care at all about Technician, which is the ENTIRE FREAKING POINT of this project.

Please please consider this as we move forward, y’all.

We got plenty of reasons to run Bulldoze and what bone move we get over Earthquake. And a Ground type lacking Earthquake? I understand you want to fully abuse Technician, but optics wise that looks ridiculous.

Also Flare Blitz. This Pokemon will NEVER get by on its strongest Fire STAB being 90 BP. That also kills any Firium Z sets that would be wanted to be ran. Having a weaker, yet recoil free alternative is great. Having the weak recoil free attack as your only option is very bad
 
Also Flare Blitz. This Pokemon will NEVER get by on its strongest Fire STAB being 90 BP. That also kills any Firium Z sets that would be wanted to be ran. Having a weaker, yet recoil free alternative is great. Having the weak recoil free attack as your only option is very bad

I'm honestly so confused about 25f and how powerful everyone seems to think it is. Earlier today everyone on Discord was telling me this mon will be absolutely broken if it gets Rock Tomb, and several people were saying we should even deny it Flame Charge because it is just going to be too powerful. I can't wrap my head around 25f breaking the metagame with Rock Tomb or Flame Charge but being absolutely useless if it doesn't get Flare Blitz. Those things can't simultaneously be true. To be frank, CAP balance is not on that sharp of a knife's edge. And if we are to have one or the other, why wouldn't we pursue the pro-concept option? AKA the moves boosted by Technician.

I agree that Earthquake should be an option, because Technician-boosted Bulldoze and Bone Rush will be able to compete for a slot. But denying Flare Blitz seems like a perfectly valid suggestion to shave some power off a mon that everyone keeps assuring me is in danger of being busted. There are several Fire-type mixed attackers that don't get Flare Blitz, such as Camerupt, Houndoom, Torkoal, and Entei, so there is plenty of precedent.

To be clear, I'm not saying I'm in favor of denying Flare Blitz. I'm just saying people need to stop being so hyperbolic about 25f's balance.
 
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I'm honestly so confused about 25f and how powerful everyone seems to think it is. Earlier today everyone on Discord was telling me this mon will be absolutely broken if it gets Rock Tomb, and several people were saying we should even deny it Flame Charge because it is just going to be too powerful. I can't wrap my head around 25f breaking the metagame with Rock Tomb or Flame Charge but being absolutely useless if it doesn't get Flare Blitz. Those things can't simultaneously be true. To be frank, CAP balance is not on that sharp of a knife's edge. And if we are to have one or the other, why wouldn't we pursue the pro-concept option? AKA the moves boosted by Technician.

I agree that Earthquake should be an option, because Technician-boosted Bulldoze and Bone Rush will be able to compete for a slot. But denying Flare Blitz seems like a perfectly valid suggestion to shave some power off a mon that everyone keeps assuring me is in danger of being busted. There are several Fire-type mixed attackers that don't get Flare Blitz, such as Camerupt, Houndoom, Torkoal, and Entei, so there is plenty of precedent.

To be clear, I'm not saying I'm in favor of denying Flare Blitz. I'm just saying people need to stop being so hyperbolic about 25f's balance.

I agree that people are overestimating 25f's power, but Rock Tomb can't be compared to Flare Blitz - Rock Tomb could be unbalanced because it adds coverage to our STAB that might mess with our C&C's. Fire STAB is already assumed to exist on this mon, and Flare Blitz is just that - strong Fire STAB. Flame Charge I personally don't think of as broken, but the concerns about using a decent STAB to get a +1 speed on way a switch from a steel type are at least somewhat justified.

I agree with G-Luke, if we don't have Flare Blitz we won't be viable. A 90 BP STAB coming off a likely neutral natured 116 Atk is disgustingly weak, and no STAB combo is gonna make up for that when we don't have naturally fast speed, meaning we must use another move to rectify that before using the 90 BP STAB move.
 
Moveset submission

Name: Sweeper
Move 1: Flare blitz
Move 2: Bonemerang
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Electric
Move 4: Flame Charge
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty
  • Flare blitz is strongest Fire STAB that 25f can use
  • Thanks to the Technician boost, Bonemerang reach a final BP of 150, that makes it very stronger than Earthquake
  • Hidden Power Ice wrecks offensive Zygarde and Landorus-T
  • Hidden Power Electric wrecks Pelipper and Gyarados that will otherwise stop 25f
  • Flame Charge boosts the Speed of 25f allowing it to bypass some of its checks like Scarf Volkraken, Greninja or Kerfluffle
The point of this set is to show that Bonemerang could be too much for 25f:
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 152-179 (36.7 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 228-272 (55 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Tomohawk can't restore its health properly, failing to stop 25f

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Arghonaut: 236-280 (57 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Arghonaut: 157-187 (37.9 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Arghonaut has not time to use Recover, failing to counter 25f

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 392-462 (55.8 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 261-308 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 206-244 (46.5 - 55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 138-164 (31.1 - 37%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
As you can see Bonemerang allows 25f to 2HKO its counters, making 25f too strong for them
 
I'm honestly so confused about 25f and how powerful everyone seems to think it is. Earlier today everyone on Discord was telling me this mon will be absolutely broken if it gets Rock Tomb, and several people were saying we should even deny it Flame Charge because it is just going to be too powerful. I can't wrap my head around 25f breaking the metagame with Rock Tomb or Flame Charge but being absolutely useless if it doesn't get Flare Blitz. Those things can't simultaneously be true. To be frank, CAP balance is not on that sharp of a knife's edge. And if we are to have one or the other, why wouldn't we pursue the pro-concept option? AKA the moves boosted by Technician.

I agree that Earthquake should be an option, because Technician-boosted Bulldoze and Bone Rush will be able to compete for a slot. But denying Flare Blitz seems like a perfectly valid suggestion to shave some power off a mon that everyone keeps assuring me is in danger of being busted. There are several Fire-type mixed attackers that don't get Flare Blitz, such as Camerupt, Houndoom, Torkoal, and Entei, so there is plenty of precedent.

To be clear, I'm not saying I'm in favor of denying Flare Blitz. I'm just saying people need to stop being so hyperbolic about 25f's balance.

Its not raw power why Rock Tomb and Flame Charge are being thrown on the chopping block. Rock Tomb handles a kot of the checks and counters that can handle us on virtue of STAB alone, and is then compounded by the fact that plenty of said checks rely on Speed to beat us as well.

Flame Charge I still personally disagree with power scale wise, but I understand why people think it can push it out of balance. Its not all about power at all. Its about the speed boost allowing it to potentially run through ofeense lacking priority (which is a real concern, but in my opinion, grossly overhyped)

And those Pokemon you listed as "mixed" attackers are all specially biased, and GF has set a precedent on specially geared Fire types lacking Flare Blitz (also Torkoal? Who uses it as a mixed attacker?). Also Entei isn't a mixed attacker in the slightest degree, what the hell? And Entei does learn Flare Blitz.

I do not see exactly why are people pursuing this one or the other mindset, if we lack Flare Blitz we are not gonna be viable, and just because we lack Flare Blitz, does not mean more broken moves like Bonemerang would be on the table. Its like people WANT this Pokemon to either be centralising or near worthless and its infuriating.
 
I'm honestly so confused about 25f and how powerful everyone seems to think it is. Earlier today everyone on Discord was telling me this mon will be absolutely broken if it gets Rock Tomb, and several people were saying we should even deny it Flame Charge because it is just going to be too powerful.
Hi, I'm one of those people on discord. Lets talk about Rock Tomb, Flame Charge and dropping Flare Blitz.

First of all, Rock Tomb. The main problem with this move comes from Checks and Counters instead of raw power. When I think about 25f I primarily think of 4 mons that can stop it; Pelipper, Gyarados, Mega Latios, and Mega Latias (as well as non-mega lati@s to a lesser extent.) The first two of these are weak to rock, and Rock Tomb allows us to break past them almost for free. Mega Latios can be 2hkod by Rock Tomb + Technician HP Ice or just two Rock Tombs. Mega Latias is the least affected by Rock Tomb of these 4 as it can comfortably live two but if at any point in the match it gets weakened by another pokemon and is unable to recover then it can still be 2hko by a combination of Rock Tomb + HP Ice/a second Rock Tomb. The main problem with this move comes not from the sheer power of it, but from the interactions it has with the meta and 25f Checks and Counters.

Next, lets talk about Flame Charge. Unlike Rock Tomb, the problems with this move stem entirely from its raw power. While a move that reaches 75BP after Technician might not sound insane, the +1 speed alongside our decent base speed of 97 allows us to run past most of the meta as well as several common scarf pokemon (Landorus-T, Volkraken, Tapu Lele.) Due to the potency of our STABs, most offensive pokemon can not afford to take even one hit from 25f over the course of the match. Giving this pokemon Flame Charge would make it overcentralizing in the metagame. Every single Balance or generally Bulky build would be required to run Mega Latias, Tomohawk or another pokemon that can generally deal with it, and they would also have to play with it extremely carefully, not allowing it to take too much damage or else it could be beat by 25f anyway. Offensive builds would either have to sacrifice a normally offensive mon for something that could defensively check 25f, add Ash or Scarf Greninja to every single team, or play around 25f perfectly to avoid it doing anything. For example, in a recent game I played using a sample team, I was forced to never click Fire Blast with Volkraken. Should I click Fire Blast and get a kill, 25f would be able to come in for free, tank a Fire Blast and Flame Charge. At that point it would outspeed everything on the team, and even if I managed to get enough Intimidates off to where it wasn't able to ohko something I would have likely lost over half my team. This scenario is not uncommon for offensive teams, it can apply to Volkraken, Tapu Koko, Choiced Tapu Lele and . On test realm I have seen games where Tapu Koko gets a kill, which allows 25f to come in for free, Flame Charge and kill 3+ Pokemon. While some people might claim that the meta would adapt to this pokemon with Flame Charge, if every single team is forced to run a dedicated counter to 25f, I fail to see how that is different than two pokemon that have been suspect tested and banned in the past; Aegislash and Mega Metagross.

Aegislash and Mega Metagross both warped the metagame around them, they single-handedly made certain pokemon unviable and brought up lower tier pokemon solely to stop them. Aegislash required everyone to play around its signature move King's Shield and created 50/50s. Flame Charge would not be unlike this. Flame Charge creates 50/50s on whether or not your opponent will click Flame Charge or a normal attack, get it right and you might kill 25f, but if you get it wrong you are at best losing the pokemon that is currently out and at worst losing your entire team. Aegislash brought pokemon like Mandibuzz to higher viability in the metagame, and forced every single team to have a plan to deal with it. Mega Metagross, a more recent example did something similar. Due to the sheer strength of this Pokemon, teams changed what they were running. Mandibuzz once again appeared in the meta to attempt to deal with it, and Bronzong also appeared in OU. While Bronzong also checked meta threats such as Z move Landorus-T, its ability to defensively check Mega Metagross made it appear in OU. Flame Charge would be similar, while it may not bring lower tier mons to CAP, it would force teams to resort to pokemon they do not normally use in order to check it.

Lastly, removing Flare Blitz would make the pokemon significantly worse. While it does not change much for a Flame Charge set, it makes 25f's matchup against bulkier teams worse than it should be. Due to our typing, 25f should thrive against bulkier teams. For an example of this, Mega Camerupt had niche use in OU when Clefable/Celesteela/Toxapex teams were common due to its ability to switch in on Celesteela and Clef and break the defensive core. If we deny 25f Flare Blitz we make this matchup much worse, without giving it any significant return. Also, the removal of Flare Blitz does not justify the inclusion of either of the above moves or significantly powerful moves such as Bonemerang. The loss of Flare Blitz does very little to the Flame Charge set as fire stab is mostly only be clicked against pokemon it is SE against. The loss of Flare Blitz also frees up LO on a Flame Charge set as you no longer have to worry about your sweep being interrupted by a premature death at the hands of Flare Blitz recoil + LO recoil. It also does not justify Rock Tomb as the above issues with it beating C+C still stand.

With this being said, I'd like to submit my own moveset:

cap25f @ Expert Belt / Life Orb / Earth Plate
Ability: Technician
EVs: 192 Atk / 64 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
- Earthquake / Bulldoze / Bone Rush
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Toxic / Flame Wheel

  • Flare Blitz is the strongest STAB move for 25f, no other fire move really competes. While we should not deny it Flare Blitz, Flame Wheel is a low power alternative that would allow for LO to be more comfortably used.
  • Earthquake is a consistent STAB move that can be used to hit most pokemon without recoil. Bulldoze can be used if you feel that the speed drop is worth the loss in power (most calcs end up being a 7-8% difference when SE.) Bone Rush is a far more inconsistent option that can be used for a chance at extra power.
  • Hidden Power Ice is the primary reason you use technician, allowing you to hit Landorus-T and Zygarde extremely hard.
  • Toxic is a general purpose move, allowing you to hit checks and counters on the switch and weaken them for your team.
  • Flame Wheel can also be ran over Toxic, as a fire move that does not have recoil.
  • Expert Belt allows HP Ice to OHKO defensive Landorus-T after rocks
  • 64 SpA evs allow 25f to have a chance to ohko uninvested Zygarde after rocks, and a 100% chance to ohko after two rocks switch ins.
  • Life Orb gives a stronger boost for all attacks instead of just Super Effective attacks.
  • Earth Plate can be used as a consistent boost for just the ground STAB, bumping up the power to the same level as Flare Blitz.
 
Due to our typing, 25f should thrive against bulkier teams.

I'd argue that due to our ability, we should thrive against offense. The nature of Technician is that it powers up mostly utility moves and coverage moves. Utility moves like Bulldoze and Flame Charge excel vs. offense because they give critical speed advantages over enemy sweepers, and coverage moves obviously excel vs. offense because they allow us to take out specific would-be checks.

Our concept is Astoundingly Actualized Abilities. So instead of trying to make a "Fast Mega Camerupt" that wallbreaks defensive teams with EQ and Flare Blitz, why don't we embrace the nature of our ability and make a tricky Technician attacker that relies on speed control and specific coverage to make up for what it lacks in raw power? Besides being more unique (and fun to use), it also sounds way more in line with the concept we voted on.

Moveset Submission

Name: Speed-Boosting Sweeper
Move 1: Flame Charge
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: HP Ice
Move 4: Flame Wheel / Stealth Rock / Toxic
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb / Groundium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Hasty
  • Flame Charge allows us to set up on mons that we can threaten to OHKO or 2HKO after oustpeeding, such as Jumbao, Necturna, Kitsunoh, etc.
  • Earthquake is a reliable and hard-hitting STAB move. Bulldoze is a weaker Technician-boosted option that allows us to cripple faster switch-ins like scarfers in the 100+ speed tier.
  • HP Ice hits Latios/as and Zapdos for good damage and OKHOs offensive Landorus after rocks, even with a Jolly Nature.
  • Flame Wheel is a more powerful Fire STAB that hits things like Strategem, Charizard Y, Rotom-Wash, and Gyarados harder than anything else 25f has to offer. Since this is a rather small pool of mons, Stealth Rock or Toxic can be run instead for more utility.
  • Technician importantly gives some punch to Flame Charge, as well as turning Bulldoze, HP Ice, and Flame Wheel into threatening options.
  • Life Orb gives more power to all of our attacks, allowing us to net some crucial OHKOs and prevent counter attack. Since we have no other way to boost our damage output, this is usually the best item. Groundium Z is another option that can be paired with Earthquake to give 25f more power against bulky teams, hitting things like Chansey, Mega Venusaur, and defensive Arghonaut for incredible damage.
  • Jolly is preferred to live more priority attacks, but a Hasty nature can be run if we want to OHKO defensive Landorus and Gliscor, as well as deal more damage to Zygarde.
I'm leaving off Rock Tomb, Bone Rush, and Flare Blitz because I'm ride-or-die for Flame Charge. It's the reason I get excited about this mon.
 
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I'd argue that due to our ability, we should thrive against offense. The nature of Technician is that it powers up mostly utility moves and coverage moves. Utility moves like Bulldoze and Flame Charge excel vs. offense because they give critical speed advantages over enemy sweepers, and coverage moves obviously excel vs. offense because they allow us to take out specific would-be checks.
I suppose i worded that poorly. Due to our typing, 25f thrives against bulkier teams. The removal of Flare Blitz simply hurts that identity and can make it slightly harder for it to do this goal - the loss of 30bp on its fire stab and inability to use Firium Z may make it harder for it to break certain pokemon (like Clefable) but it still does the job. The argument that we should also make it thrive against offense is tantamount to saying that we should make this pokemon thrive against everything in the metagame. You point out that Flame Charge and Bulldoze excel against offense due to their speed control, and in the context of Flame Charge; Why is this a good thing? I understand the interest in Bulldoze for 25f to make things slower than it - recently Low Sweep Mega Medicham has been used for similar purposes. However, this temporary -1 Speed is entirely different from a permanent +1 Speed. If 25f was slower - for all means go for Flame Charge, theres enough counterplay due to the plethora of scarfers that can outspeed it. However because we got 97 base speed giving it Flame Charge is nothing but irresponsible.
  • Flame Charge allows us to set up on mons that we can threaten to OHKO or 2HKO after oustpeeding, such as Jumbao, Necturna, Kitsunoh, etc.
Let me expand upon this point:

Flame Charge allows us to set up on pokemon that we threaten to OHKO (when switching out) such as:

Landorus-T, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Jumbao, Magearna, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Volkraken, Zygarde, Aurumoth, Celesteela, Kartana, Necturna, Pinsir-Mega, (offensive) Tornadus-T, Magnezone, Mawile-Mega, Scizor-Mega, Tapu Bulu, Volcarona, Alakazam-Mega, Cawmodore, Diancie-Mega, Kitsunoh, Marowak-Alola, Naviathan, Tangrowth, Tyranitar, Weavile.

It also allows us to beat the following pokemon when they switch in on a Flame Charge:

Landorus-T, Crucibelle-Mega, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Jumbao, Magearna, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Volkraken, Zygarde, Aurumoth, Celesteela, Kartana, Krilowatt, Medicham-Mega, Necturna, Pinsir-Mega, Syclant, (offensive) Tornadus-T, Magnezone, Mawile-Mega, Medicham-Mega, Scizor-Mega, Tapu Bulu, Volcarona, Alakazam-Mega, Cawmodore, Diancie-Mega, Kitsunoh, Marowak-Alola, Naviathan, Tangrowth, SpDef Toxapex, Tyranitar, Weavile.

The above list includes any pokemon that can be found at B+ or higher on the CAP Viability Rankings. All of these pokemon are either 2hko'd on the switch in by Flame Charge + another move, or are threatened out because we ohko it and can be Flame Charged on during the switch.
 
Hi, I'm one of those people on discord. Lets talk about Rock Tomb, Flame Charge and dropping Flare Blitz.

First of all, Rock Tomb. The main problem with this move comes from Checks and Counters instead of raw power. When I think about 25f I primarily think of 4 mons that can stop it; Pelipper, Gyarados, Mega Latios, and Mega Latias (as well as non-mega lati@s to a lesser extent.) The first two of these are weak to rock, and Rock Tomb allows us to break past them almost for free. Mega Latios can be 2hkod by Rock Tomb + Technician HP Ice or just two Rock Tombs. Mega Latias is the least affected by Rock Tomb of these 4 as it can comfortably live two but if at any point in the match it gets weakened by another pokemon and is unable to recover then it can still be 2hko by a combination of Rock Tomb + HP Ice/a second Rock Tomb. The main problem with this move comes not from the sheer power of it, but from the interactions it has with the meta and 25f Checks and Counters.

Next, lets talk about Flame Charge. Unlike Rock Tomb, the problems with this move stem entirely from its raw power. While a move that reaches 75BP after Technician might not sound insane, the +1 speed alongside our decent base speed of 97 allows us to run past most of the meta as well as several common scarf pokemon (Landorus-T, Volkraken, Tapu Lele.) Due to the potency of our STABs, most offensive pokemon can not afford to take even one hit from 25f over the course of the match. Giving this pokemon Flame Charge would make it overcentralizing in the metagame. Every single Balance or generally Bulky build would be required to run Mega Latias, Tomohawk or another pokemon that can generally deal with it, and they would also have to play with it extremely carefully, not allowing it to take too much damage or else it could be beat by 25f anyway. Offensive builds would either have to sacrifice a normally offensive mon for something that could defensively check 25f, add Ash or Scarf Greninja to every single team, or play around 25f perfectly to avoid it doing anything. For example, in a recent game I played using a sample team, I was forced to never click Fire Blast with Volkraken. Should I click Fire Blast and get a kill, 25f would be able to come in for free, tank a Fire Blast and Flame Charge. At that point it would outspeed everything on the team, and even if I managed to get enough Intimidates off to where it wasn't able to ohko something I would have likely lost over half my team. This scenario is not uncommon for offensive teams, it can apply to Volkraken, Tapu Koko, Choiced Tapu Lele and . On test realm I have seen games where Tapu Koko gets a kill, which allows 25f to come in for free, Flame Charge and kill 3+ Pokemon. While some people might claim that the meta would adapt to this pokemon with Flame Charge, if every single team is forced to run a dedicated counter to 25f, I fail to see how that is different than two pokemon that have been suspect tested and banned in the past; Aegislash and Mega Metagross.

Aegislash and Mega Metagross both warped the metagame around them, they single-handedly made certain pokemon unviable and brought up lower tier pokemon solely to stop them. Aegislash required everyone to play around its signature move King's Shield and created 50/50s. Flame Charge would not be unlike this. Flame Charge creates 50/50s on whether or not your opponent will click Flame Charge or a normal attack, get it right and you might kill 25f, but if you get it wrong you are at best losing the pokemon that is currently out and at worst losing your entire team. Aegislash brought pokemon like Mandibuzz to higher viability in the metagame, and forced every single team to have a plan to deal with it. Mega Metagross, a more recent example did something similar. Due to the sheer strength of this Pokemon, teams changed what they were running. Mandibuzz once again appeared in the meta to attempt to deal with it, and Bronzong also appeared in OU. While Bronzong also checked meta threats such as Z move Landorus-T, its ability to defensively check Mega Metagross made it appear in OU. Flame Charge would be similar, while it may not bring lower tier mons to CAP, it would force teams to resort to pokemon they do not normally use in order to check it.

Lastly, removing Flare Blitz would make the pokemon significantly worse. While it does not change much for a Flame Charge set, it makes 25f's matchup against bulkier teams worse than it should be. Due to our typing, 25f should thrive against bulkier teams. For an example of this, Mega Camerupt had niche use in OU when Clefable/Celesteela/Toxapex teams were common due to its ability to switch in on Celesteela and Clef and break the defensive core. If we deny 25f Flare Blitz we make this matchup much worse, without giving it any significant return. Also, the removal of Flare Blitz does not justify the inclusion of either of the above moves or significantly powerful moves such as Bonemerang. The loss of Flare Blitz does very little to the Flame Charge set as fire stab is mostly only be clicked against pokemon it is SE against. The loss of Flare Blitz also frees up LO on a Flame Charge set as you no longer have to worry about your sweep being interrupted by a premature death at the hands of Flare Blitz recoil + LO recoil. It also does not justify Rock Tomb as the above issues with it beating C+C still stand.

With this being said, I'd like to submit my own moveset:

cap25f @ Expert Belt / Life Orb / Earth Plate
Ability: Technician
EVs: 192 Atk / 64 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
- Earthquake / Bulldoze / Bone Rush
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Toxic / Flame Wheel

  • Flare Blitz is the strongest STAB move for 25f, no other fire move really competes. While we should not deny it Flare Blitz, Flame Wheel is a low power alternative that would allow for LO to be more comfortably used.
  • Earthquake is a consistent STAB move that can be used to hit most pokemon without recoil. Bulldoze can be used if you feel that the speed drop is worth the loss in power (most calcs end up being a 7-8% difference when SE.) Bone Rush is a far more inconsistent option that can be used for a chance at extra power.
  • Hidden Power Ice is the primary reason you use technician, allowing you to hit Landorus-T and Zygarde extremely hard.
  • Toxic is a general purpose move, allowing you to hit checks and counters on the switch and weaken them for your team.
  • Flame Wheel can also be ran over Toxic, as a fire move that does not have recoil.
  • Expert Belt allows HP Ice to OHKO defensive Landorus-T after rocks
  • 64 SpA evs allow 25f to have a chance to ohko uninvested Zygarde after rocks, and a 100% chance to ohko after two rocks switch ins.
  • Life Orb gives a stronger boost for all attacks instead of just Super Effective attacks.
  • Earth Plate can be used as a consistent boost for just the ground STAB, bumping up the power to the same level as Flare Blitz.
Good grief. Dude, these claims are way too far reaching. First off, do you seriously think Mega Latios is hopeless against 25f? Because it's 2KO'd by the combination of Rock Tomb and HP Ice? I think it can hit more than hard enough back, given 88/67/78 bulk is not impressive. You have a strong STAB Psychic, not to mention people run Draco at times as well. I think you're severely overstating how badly Rock Tomb affects that match up.

Flame Charge, you're looking at a base 75 move that so happens to get speed up to +1. Do you intend on running both that and Flare Blitz or Flame Wheel (also very underwhelming, may I add)? Because coming off of neutral base 116 attack, not that strong bud, I highly doubt that alone alongside EQ will allow you to sweep. Not to mention, if 3+ mons are getting killed before it's revenge killed, chances are it's due to bad plays. If you have the replays of the matchups against Tapu Koko, that would at least help your case a little. Base 88 SpA, neutral especially, is nothing crazy, it's meant to be just enough to secure our intended KO's with HP Ice. I think you're also forgetting that Flare Blitz gives recoil, so it's longevity is also weakened.

You're not the only one guilty of this, not to single you out here mate, but I agree with G-Luke 100% that we're screaming here, when I think in reality we're hyperbolizing 25f's power way too much, and frankly, it's getting aggravating.
 
Moveset Submission

Name: Bad Moves Breaker
Move 1: Flame Charge
Move 2: Flame Wheel
Move 3: Bonemerang
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature

The entire point of this set is to point out moves that I don't think should be on CAPf, although there are some legitimate submissions for moves mixed in.

  • Flame Charge allows us to hit even a resisted switch-in and gain a speed boost, allowing us to outspeed a number of our checks quite easily, which can easily shake our threats list out of whack. Quite similar to Rock Tomb in a way, as it can hit practically every mon (Heatran won't switch into us because ground stab) and it has speed control, but its also contains the fact that you are the one to gain the boost, meaning it can't be easily removed by switching out.
  • Flame Wheel with Life Orb has similar power to Flare Blitz with the draw of significantly less recoil, allowing us to use the STAB move fairly consistently against Fire weak mons like Magearna, Jumbao, Celesteela, Tapu Bulu and Ferrothorn with much less drawback than the other possibilities.
  • Bonemerang is a scary 150 BP STAB move that hits anything that doesn't resist shockingly hard, and is able to break through some great Defensive mons on our checklist like Clefable and Arghonaut. Grass-types are not safe into it because of the presence of our other STAB, so the only way to be safe against a CAPf with this is to go into a Flying-type.
  • Hidden Power Ice is a 90 BP coverage move that allows us to actually fight Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Lando-T, Mega Latios and Latias, and Zygarde effectively. Can also be subbed for Hidden Power Electric for Pelipper and Gyarados, but 90% will run HP Ice.
  • Rock Tomb is also an option to utterly destroy most of our checks if worked with Hidden Power Ice, allowing us to slow them down and KO them before they can sufficiently act.
As you can probably tell, I am very much against the idea of Flame Charge. It may not have the coverage that Rock Tomb has by itself, but when combined with either Hidden Power Ice or Hidden Power Electric, it can invalidate a lot of our checklist that wins by outspeeding by just a Flame Charge on a switch. I think if we were to invest into speed control, I think Bulldoze is the much safer route considering it doesn't mess with our checklist and instead helps generate us free momentum by switches instead. Speaking of...

Name: Stealth Rawks (Offensive Utility)
Move 1: Stealth Rock
Move 2: Flame Wheel
Move 3: Bulldoze
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Toxic
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature

  • Stealth Rock lets us set hazards while still keeping offensive momentum, and synchronizes quite well with Bulldoze's effect.
  • Flame Wheel is pretty much powerful Fire STAB, letting us hit Steel-types like Cawmodore and Celesteela, as well as Grass-types like Jumbao, Kartana, and Ferrothorn.
  • Bulldoze is a 90BP Ground STAB, allowing CAPf to slow down Pokemon such as Kerfluffle and Greninja, allowing us to either set up Stealth Rock or straight up KO them.
  • Hidden Power Ice is a coverage move to hit Landorus-T, Zygarde, and Salamence super-effectively, which otherwise resist our STABs.
  • Toxic instead can be used to cripple these among other defensive Pokemon such as Pyroak, Zapdos, and Arghonaut.
Thought behind this is to use Bulldoze to pressure Pokemon who can be KO'd by CAPf, causing them to switch and allowing CAP to set up Stealth Rock. Its typing also can cause a lot of switches, also allowing it to set up Stealth Rock safely.
 
I'd like to start out this post by talking a bit more about our role. I mentioned in my earlier post what I think we should be aiming for, but I feel like some people here have a desire to try and squeeze us into a role that we just don't fit into, and trying to do so would place big restrictions on our movepool. What I'm getting at here is that, as we are right now, CAP 25f is set up to be a sweeper. Not a wallbreaker. Everything about it is made for sweeping.

Its typing is fantastic offensively, though that, of course, helps all attacking roles.

Its ability, Technician, is absolutely a sweeping ability. It is not simply an ability that adds coverage, nor is it one that grants power, the two things a wallbreaker would be looking for. Anything, coverage or power wise, that you can do with Technician, you can do with movepool without the need for a specialized ability. Rather, what Technician does is grant access to good, but not great, power moves that have other interesting effects to them. Hidden Power has gotten a lot of talk because of its universal nature, but it is the outlier here. Every other use of Technician is about mitigating the expense of going for utility over power. But, no matter what it does, no Tech option will ever be the pure power option. This is far more suited to the general offensive abilities of sweepers than for smashing through walls.

Our stats, on the other hand, were straight up designed with speed control offense in mind. We are sitting at the speed tier we are because of what it will allow us to do at one effective speed level up above our opponent. At the same time though, that very nice speed comes at the expense of power. 116 is not that strong in this metagame, and we do not have something like Sheer Force that will be boosting our strong moves. The way to stop a pokemon like this is to throw a wall in front of it. Tomohawk, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mega Latias, and CAP25w even, among others, can all take it on fairly easily (especially if we forgo Flare Blitz).

And, if you actually look to our checks and counters list, these are the very Pokemon that appear there. Bulky things that don't fear our STABs. How someone can see what is supposed to counter us and decide we should be wallbreaking is beyond me. That is the exact opposite of what we want. What we should be going for is something that threatens offensive mons as well as things weak to its STABs. And the only way for something with a middling 97 speed to do so is to have a way to boost its relative speed. And I think the best way to do that is with a set like this:

Moveset Submission

Move 1: Flame Charge
Move 2: Bulldoze / Earthquake
Move 3: Hidden Power (Ice) / Hidden Power (Electric)
Move 4: Rock Slide / Flame Wheel / Overheat
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpS / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature

  • This set utilizes its good super effective coverage to force switches with the hope of either boosting its own speed, or lowing an opponents speed to give it better matchups. Flame Charge is obviously the crux of this, giving the straight up speed boost in addition to being a 75 power STAB move. It is not always something you can just click on, as you are relying on your speed for a number of things you want to force out, and they can KO right back if they stay in instead. Combined with its relatively low power, it provides fantastic utility without being overwhelming.
  • Bulldoze is used in the second slot as your secondary STAB move. It also lowers the opponents speed if it hit. This is certainly not as potent as raising your own speed, but it lets you get a similar result in the short term while potentially using a more useful, and more powerful attack, depending on the opponent.
  • Earthquake is also slashed here for those who prefer more straight up power, but I have not yet seen any specific important situations where the 10 extra power makes a significant difference for me to want to give up the utility of Bulldoze. Either one is definitely a viable option though.
  • Third slot is for Hidden Power. Ice will usually be the preferred option here for hitting Landorus and company. It will score some key KOs on Pokemon weak to it, but is never going to be strong enough without investment to really break down defensive mons that lack a double weakness. Electric is listed here as a secondary option for hitting guys like Pelipper or Gyarados, but it is definitely a secondary choice, as Ice just gives such better coverage in general.
  • Finally, the last slot is for whatever final option you want. My primary slash here is Rock Slide as it is probably the best physical coverage move that I would be comfortable giving. The main targets here are the same ones that HP Electric would be going after, as well as a few other things. It would not get used a ton, but it would get key hits when it is. While I considered Rock Tomb, I don't love the greater power on the coverage, and I feel like the speed control should be restricted to STABs, as having it on nearly every attack makes prediction so much less important.
  • My secondary option here is Flame Wheel. I decided not to make this the primary slash because, assuming that it is the strongest Physical fire move we have, I'm not convinced that the extra 15 power makes it worth doubling up on fire moves on this set. Flame Charge's 75 power is not a ton, but I think it may be good enough for our purposes when paired with great coverage and a solid secondary STAB. That said, having the more powerful move is always an option.
  • Another possible move here would be Overheat, which can land a solid hit on anything that far more physically bulky. Mawile, for example, can come in with Intimidate and potentially survive our physical moves (especially if it is on a TR team or otherwise has a set with higher bulk), but is roasted in one hit by Overheat.
  • Alternatively, there are a number of other moves that could fit in the last slot, such as Toxic or Wisp. Really, the meat of the set is the first three slots. The last is for customization.

Overall, I think a set like this perfectly plays to the niche we have established for this CAP, without being too overwhelming. It puts high pressure on offensive teams, but does not pack enough punch to fully sweep through teams that have not been weakened, and is still vulnerable to faster scarfers and priority moves, especially with its weak defensive and propensity towards running a Hasty Nature. It is also thoroughly stopped by a number of walls, but has enough of its core movepool in three moves to at least allow it to pack one thing to do in situations that are not to its advantage.

Finally, I just want to comment a bit more on Flare Blitz. I really think that we should avoid giving this move to our Pokemon for three main reasons.

1) It is overly powerful for our purposes. The core of what makes a speed boosting Pokemon like this balanced is that it actually needs to have its team soften up the opponent and eliminate counters before it can finish things off. Flare Blitz both helps ease the need to soften up the opponents bulky offensive mons, and eliminates some of its better defensive checks, such as Clefable.

2) Recoil sucks. We are already very frail and vulnerable to priority. Using Flare Blitz as our main attack makes it very difficult to stick around. KOing a Ferrothorn, for example is going to cost us nearly half our health.

3) Its just completely unneeded. Sets like what I provided above should be more than enough to find a place in the metagame. Flare Blitz is not a universal move for fire types, or even fire starters. The kinda thing people have tried to do to show precedent involves making up arbitrary limitations and ignoring the exceptions (Such as Ho-Oh), while simultaneously counting outliers like Entei and its event only nature locked access. If I felt like it, I could provide better precedent for something like Scald. Furthermore, by having Flare Blitz, we would be overshadowing more concept relevant moves like Flame Wheel.
 
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jas61292's post is apiece with my own about 25f - we are a sweeper and a sniper, not a wallbreaker, and our fire move should be one of finesse and, um, Technique if possible. But in the interest of science, I decided to run some calcs: Is there any matchup in which Flame Wheel fails to net a KO against a key target for us, where Flare Blitz would do the job? For all calcs I am assuming Neutral Natured Life Orb 25f with no Stealth Rocks up, in other words no support and the most meager of calcs. I then calced every one of the 'mons we want to switch in on or pressure that is Weak to Fire or Immune/Resistant to Ground:

All Magnezone:
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Scarf Magnezone: 315-374 (111.7 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

3 Attacks + Roost Zapdos
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Defensive Zapdos: 200-238 (52.2 - 62.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Shift Gear and Double Dance Magearna
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 315-374 (104.6 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

All M-Scizor
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 248 HP / 124 Def Scizor-Mega: 484-577 (141.1 - 168.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Scarf Jirachi
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 354-421 (103.8 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

All Skarmory
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 203-242 (60.9 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 268-320 (80.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

All Amoongus
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Amoonguss: 445-525 (103.2 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

All Ferrothorn
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 536-640 (152.2 - 181.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

All Syclant
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Syclant: 1061-1248 (377.5 - 444.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

3-Attack Jumbao
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jumbao: 361-429 (110.7 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO



Defensive Zapdos
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 142-169 (37 - 44.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 191-226 (49.8 - 59%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

AV and TR Magearna
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 315-374 (86.7 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
vs
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 416-494 (114.6 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rocks Jirachi
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 471-556 (116.8 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Celesteela
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Celesteela: 283-338 (71.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Celesteela: 377-447 (94.9 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

Tornadus-T:
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 212-251 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 285-335 (95.3 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Levitate Stratagem:
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 125-148 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
vs
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 166-196 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

All Gliscors
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 146-173 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
vs
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 195-230 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

Wish Jumbao
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Jumbao: 307-367 (79.1 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Jumbao: 413-486 (106.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

TL;DR:
- Celesteela is the most relevant 'mon that we suffer against if we do not have access to anything better than a 90 BP Physical Fire move; it's on our list as something we want to switch-in on and while it wouldn't theaten us we fail to OHKO with just Flame Wheel allowing it time to do stuff.

- We also will have more trouble against extremely defensive builds of certain 'mons, such as Defensive Zapdos, Trick Room Magearna, and Utility Jirachi.

- In general though, Flame Wheel is enough for most of our list of targets especially their most common sets.

- Also one thing the calcs don't show is the recoil from Flare Blitz. Consider that Celesteela is only going to deal maximum 28% to us with Heavy Slam if we let it live long enough to do something, but we're going to take 41% HP damage trying to OHKO it with Flare Blitz. Sure we "net" a OHKO, but we actually took MORE damage than we would have if we had 2HKO'd with Flame Wheel to do it. It's a similar deal with Defensive Zapdos - we'll take at worst 56% from three Heat Waves, but we'd take at least 58% if we Flare Blitz twice and eat only one Heat Wave. So the only matchup where it really saves us HP is against TR Magearna.

- And of course, all that recoil is even worse against everyone on the list Flame Wheel would have been fine on; like jas said we take near 50% KOing Ferrothorn, and we'd be taking as much as 66% trying to KO Skarmory!

- It messes with our Pressure list more, as without Flare Blitz we don't really "pressure" Tornadus-T, Levitate Stratagem, Wish Jumbao, or Gliscor. This isn't as bad as it seems at first glance though - it's important to remember that we would likely be running HP to defeat Torn and Gliscor, that we would still die to Stratagem with Flare Blitz (we just hit it harder), and that Wish Jumbao gets to Wish Pass but doesn't actually pose a threat to us since we resist its primary attack.

- Overall, I think being able to muscle past Celesteela is a fine thing but Flare Blitz gives up too much in longevity to do it for our frail 'mon.
 
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