CAP 25 - Part 9 - CAP 25f Moveset Discussion

[Deck Knight]

Moveset Submission

Name: Chip Pressure Attacker
Move 1: Fake Out
Move 2: Bulldoze
Move 3: Flame Wheel / Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Morning Sun
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant / Lonely

• Fake Out is a great move on any Pokemon with Technician and a decent attack stat, getting free chip damage.
• At 293 Spe, 25f outspeeds every unboosted Pokemon up to Base 150 Spe Maxed at -1, making Bulldoze an excellent pressure option against offensive switchins that aren't immune to Ground.
• Flame Wheel utilizes 25f's other STAB and nabs KOs on opponents brought into range with Fake Out. Hidden Power Ice is an alternative that hits foes like Landorus-T and Zygarde hard.
• Because Fake Out, Bulldoze, and either Ground/Fire or Ground/Ice coverage threaten so much, Morning Sun can punish skittish switchins and give 25f more HP to fuel its Life Orb boosted attacks. SR neutrality and Volt-turn resistance also aids in being able to pull off this high-risk high-reward hit-and-run strategy.
• Adamant nature for pure physical, use Lonely for mixed as you can usually only recover on resisted special attacks anyway.

Some of the close call calcs in hawk1113 's post caused me to speculate about getting that chip to make up the gap and still support the concept, and this set was born. It's one of many that doesn't need Flame Charge to be effective at all, and does more things with the typing and ability than direct STAB offense.

Some Fake Out Calcs:

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 120-142 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Syclant: 117-138 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- 78.1% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 104-123 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 104-123 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 74-88 (20.3 - 24.1%) -- 74.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

3HKO's or even 2HKO's with stacked hazards (and appropriate hit-and-run play) are pretty annoying for frailer checks. It pressures them pretty well actually, and both Gren and Syclant are on the Pressure list. Fake Out is definitely viable. Bulkier checks and counters just don't care though.

 

[Dogfish44]

Moveset Submission

Name: Shuca Avalanche
Move 1: Flame Charge
Move 2: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 3: Bone Rush / Earthquake
Move 4: Avalanche
Ability: Technician
Item: Shuca Berry
EVs: 252 Atk / 48 Def / 208 Speed
Nature: Jolly

• EVs allow 25f to survive Stealth Rock + 1x Landorus EQ, whilst still outspeeding Scarf Lando at +1. Which I know is weird on an Avalanche set, but is relevant in a mix of situations.
• Flame Charge isn't actually needed for this set to function, but the +1 is incredibly useful for us.
• Flare Blitz secures certain KOs, Flame Wheel doesn't take recoil, there's not exactly a small argument ongoing here...
• Bone Rush can get some lovely spike damage, Earthquake is consistent as all hell.
• Avalanche allows us to take on Ground types when we have Shuca Berry available to tank the hit.

Relevant Calculations

Landorus-T
Okay, so there's two distinct scenarios I'm gonna look at: Landorus-T Switching In against us (We can assume Flame Charge here), and us taking a free switch in against Lando-T (Say, as a revenge kill).

Lando Switches In against Flame Charge
-1 252 Atk Technician Camerupt Avalanche (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 264-312 (82.7 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Camerupt Avalanche (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 352-416 (110.3 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 82-97 (25.7 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252 Atk Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 132-156 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

-1 252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 58-70 (15.1 - 18.3%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Camerupt Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 252-300 (65.9 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 48 Def Shuca Berry Camerupt: 229-271 (72.2 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 48 Def Shuca Berry Camerupt: 193-228 (60.8 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Lando switches into us, then we never OHKO it (Calcs done on Scarf Lando) - ensuring that Lando has at least a chance to deal significant damage to us, even if it's no longer a check. This even holds true if we Flame Charge - Flare Blitz doesn't OHKO beyond a crit, even when we outspeed, whilst Avalanche's negative priority works well here.

vs Defensive Lando, we still need SR support to counter-act Leftovers, but something along the lines of Flame Charge --> Avalanche --> Flare Blitz is usually sufficient there, whilst we abuse our higher speed.

We Switch into Lando for free
252 Atk Camerupt Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 380-448 (99.4 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 88-105 (23 - 27.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 142-168 (37.1 - 43.9%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 124-147 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 196-232 (61.4 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Big thing here is that Defensive gets absolutely smashed by Avalanche, whilst Scarf is always 2HKOd by Charge into Blitz

Zygarde
252 Atk Camerupt Avalanche (120 BP) vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 412-488 (101.9 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Technician Camerupt Avalanche (60 BP) vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 312-368 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (2 hits) vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 98-116 (24.2 - 28.7%) -- approx. 99.4% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Camerupt Earthquake vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 129-153 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 91.1% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (3 hits) vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 147-174 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

140+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 48 Def Shuca Berry Camerupt: 159-187 (50.1 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
140+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 48 Def Camerupt: 318-374 (100.3 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zygarde gets far less attention, as there's far less juggling of Speed Tiers here. Avalanche guarentees the relevant KO from EQ or any Bone Rush but 2 Hit, note the importance of Shuca Berry

Mega Latias
252 Atk Technician Camerupt Avalanche (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Camerupt Avalanche (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 206-244 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 48-57 (13.1 - 15.6%) -- possible 7HKO
252 Atk Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 77-91 (21.1 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

0 SpA Latias-Mega Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 107-126 (33.7 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 0 SpA Latias-Mega Stored Power (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 160-189 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Latias-Mega Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 354-417 (111.6 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Avalanche damage can be stalled out anyhow, forcing a stalemate. Meanwhile, 25f can't switch in against us as long as we're at +1/+1 or above.

Mega Latios
252 Atk Camerupt Avalanche (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Latios-Mega: 270-318 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Latios-Mega Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 211-249 (66.5 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Latios-Mega Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 564-664 (177.9 - 209.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega Latios can't actually stomach an Avalanche (0/0- Defenses for ya), but Surf is perfectly sound at scoring OHKOs.

So, I was thinking...

... okay, that's everyone running away now...

...What circumstances should we allow 25f to break it's C+C List with regards to Landorus-T (and the generally implied Zygarde)?

I really don't like Hidden Power, since that move gives us the answer of "at all times". But I think that if we actively prepare for Landorus-T, such as by using up our Item Slot, then beating it isn't as much of a big deal.

Avalanche is pretty key to this set functioning - letting us dedicate a set towards targeting specific threats. It is also a generally decent move via Technician, but not overwhelming due to the more physical nature of key C+Cs, which means you do need to go Shuca to realistically use it.

 

[Deck Knight]

My chief problem with Shuca Avalanche is that you wouldn't use Shuca, you'd use Icium-Z. Sure it's only 120 BP, but it's off physical stat and hits for weakness with normal priority. Z-Crystals in general make non-Hidden Power substitutes for HP fall by the wayside because even the weakest of them offer at least a one-time breakthrough.

What I wanted to discuss though in this post is Flare Blitz and why I'm leaning towards opposing it.

Flare Blitz is of course an incredible move, one of the best in the game. It brings with it not only its own power but an incredible 190 BP Physical Firium-Z nuke. jas61292 's latest post though has convinced me that the C+C we should be striving to retain are exactly the strong walls in the CAP Metagame and not the myriad offense and bulky offense Pokemon CAP 25f outspeeds or can KO with Technician Hidden Power. This gives 25f a distinct and powerful role while also allowing specific forms of counterplay. Flare Blitz is unhealthy to this end, and if 25f wants a Firium nuke, I think Blaze Kick (Z-BP 160) is a suitable alternative. It's slightly weaker than Technician Flame Wheel in its regular use, but has a stronger Z-move.

Let's not forget as a starter 25f will always have access to the special Z-nuke Z-Blast Burn at 200 BP, and for a less... troublesome regular set move Z-Overheat clocks in at 195 BP. Earthquake will provide 25f a sufficient Ground type physical nuke, and as a whole host of checks are immune to or resist ground, that seems perfectly balanced. If anything, physical Ground and special Fire tend to be the most effective against their respective targets anyway.

Finally, because discussion of coverage is inevitable at some point, I think a Choice Band set is the best illustration.

Moveset Submission:

Name: Choice Band Utility Trapper
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Bulldoze
Move 3: Twineedle
Move 4: Pursuit
Ability: Technician
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 236 Atk / 32 Def / 240 Speed
Nature: Adamant

• Flare Blitz's raw power in exchange for recoil damage is a classic element of most CB Flare Blitz sets,
• Bulldoze outspeeds all unboosted Pokemon at or below 145 Base Speed if it strikes them and delivers a -1 Speed.
• Twineedle is an interesting option that is usually panned because Pin Missile is superior. Its net Base Power is 75, but it also has a 20% chance to inflict Poison for each of its hits. This is a safe weardown option against a lot of potential targets, and only removes Latios from C+C on a predicted hit. Also in case you wanted to know, the first hit will break a -1 Nectura's Sub and the second hit does between 34-40% damage. Add Poison and Necturna trades a 1for1 if you catch it on the Smash turn.
• Pursuit gets the Tech boost if an opponent does not withdraw and goes up to 80 BP if they do. It does not OHKO Latis, but Latios cannot switch out of it without getting KO'd (Latias survives, but barely).
• EV's let you always survive Necturna Power Whip if you face one behind a Sub. Pursuit OHKOs it 81.3% if the time if it doesn't switch, 100% if it does. Speed outruns Adamant Zygarde.

The EVs might be overly specific rather than a max/max, but I wanted to illustrate the utility of having Pursuit and an unorthodox multi-hit move on the Choice Band set. It still has many of the same tricks 25f usually employs, but gives it more utility. 25f has the capacity to be a very unique and balanced offensive force.

I also did some Aerial Ace calcs on Max Atk+ just to check. Aerial Ace crushes counters, that's why it's not on here:

Aerial Ace SMASH

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Camerupt Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def 25W: 202-238 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Camerupt Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 230-272 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Camerupt Aerial Ace vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 208-246 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Camerupt Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 224-264 (54.1 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah, Aerial Ace (or Acrobatics) are way too much for 25F. Plows right through even max defense counters.

 

[Frostbiyt]

Moveset Submission

Name: Broken Sweeper 1
Move 1: Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: HP Ice
Move 4: Flame Charge
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty (+Spe -Def)

• LO Flame Wheel does plenty of damage
• Earthquake is our strongest STAB attack that is pretty much guaranteed for this mon
• HP Ice is great coverage that is Technician boosted
• Flame Charge boosts our speed by one stage while still doing a decent amount of damage

Calcs (WIP)

Will add some soon

Here is a more serious suggestion:

Moveset Submission

Name: All Out Attacker
Move 1: Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: HP Ice
Move 4: Coverage (discussed below)
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty (+Spe -Def)

• Flame Wheel and Earthquake are solid STAB attacks
• HP Ice offers good coverage
• In my first post in this thread, I discussed possible attack types 25f could use as coverage without massively breaking its C&C, these were Fighting, Steel, and Poison
• Fighting has some of the best options for 25f and would help it with its matchups against Colossoil, Chansey, and Kyurem Black
• Storm Throw is a 60 BP attack that always crits, making it an effective 135BP coverage attack
• Circle throw is a 60 BP phazing move that is useful outside of the few matchups listed above
• Force Palm is 60 BP and has a 30% chance to paralyze
• Steel attacks are able to hit Pokemon like Tapu Lele and Clefable for extra damage
• Gear Grind is a 50 BP 2 hit attack, similar to Bonemerang that can offer a lot of damage
• Bullet Punch is a 40 BP priority attack that could be useful for finishing off a weakened opponent
• Poison can deal out a bit more damage to Jumbao, Tapu Lele, Clefable, and Pyroak
• Poison Fang is 50 BP and has a 50% chance of Toxicing the opponent

Most of the possible coverage types don't offer a lot of extra damage to many Pokemon, so I chose the attacks that I thought had good enough effects to possibly see some usage. The main goal of this moveset is to get some discussion on things other than just speed control since that is not the only way to abuse technician.

 

[S. Court]

• Steel attacks are able to hit Pokemon like Tapu Lele and Clefable for extra damage
• Gear Grind is a 50 BP 2 hit attack, similar to Bonemerang that can offer a lot of damage
• Bullet Punch is a 40 BP priority attack that could be useful for finishing off a weakened opponent

I don't have a strong opinion about if we should use Steel-type coverage or not, but if we decide going with this route, Magnet Bomb is also an option, it's a physical 60 BP move that can't miss

 

[Frostbiyt]

I don't have a strong opinion about if we should use Steel-type coverage or not, but if we decide going with this route, Magnet Bomb is also an option, it's a physical 60 BP move that can't miss

I considered that, but it doesn't seem worth it to run a 60 BP steel attack since it benefits so few matchups and the bypassing accuracy check is next to useless in the metagame. I see 0 reasons to not just run toxic instead.

 

[S. Court]

I considered that, but it doesn't seem worth it to run a 60 BP steel attack since it benefits so few matchups and the bypassing accuracy check is next to useless in the metagame. I see 0 reasons to not just run toxic instead.

Well, it can check Clefable better than Bullet Punch (and considering it has Magic Guard as an ability, Toxic would not work) and it's an option if we arrive to the conclusion that Gear Grind is too strong for what we want, it's just a middle point between those moves just in case

 

[Frostbiyt]

Well, it can check Clefable better than Bullet Punch (and considering it has Magic Guard as an ability, Toxic would not work) and it's an option if we arrive to the conclusion that Gear Grind is too strong for what we want, it's just a middle point between those moves just in case

It does let us 2HKO clef, but I dont think it has much use outside of that
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Numel Magnet Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 208-247 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Frostbiyt]

There were some people on discord who weren't convinced of the power of 25f's STAb Combo, so I made this so that you can visualize how good it is. Mons in red are hit for SE by STAB attacks alone

 

[Mythlore]

There were some people on discord who weren't convinced of the power of 25f's STAb Combo, so I made this so that you can visualize how good it is

Also just to add to this, Landorus-T and Zygarde are threatened by Technician HP Ice (Defensive Landorus only has a chance to live after rocks, while Zygarde can usually live one if they are running any hp/spdef,) Tapu Lele is OHKO'd after rocks, Offensive Pajantom has a chance to be OHKO'd after rocks, and Offensive Tornadus-T dies to Flare Blitz after rocks and has a chance to die to Flame Wheel as well.

Calcs

0- SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 328-390 (85.8 - 102%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 286-338 (80.1 - 94.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 250-294 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 261-308 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 212-251 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[pastafari]

Also just to add to this, Landorus-T and Zygarde are threatened by Technician HP Ice (Defensive Landorus only has a chance to live after rocks, while Zygarde can usually live one if they are running any hp/spdef,) Tapu Lele is OHKO'd after rocks, Offensive Pajantom has a chance to be OHKO'd after rocks, and Offensive Tornadus-T dies to Flare Blitz after rocks and has a chance to die to Flame Wheel as well.

Calcs

0- SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 328-390 (85.8 - 102%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 286-338 (80.1 - 94.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 250-294 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 261-308 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 212-251 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The thing is, if you count the mons from that pic that resist both STABS, you only encouter 8 mons: Lati@s, Gyara, Pelipper, CharY, Salamence, Rotom-W and Stratagem if Levitate. The rest will be hit, at least neutrally, just with our STAB. You pick Rock-coverage (kind of a given for every Game Freak ground type), and you can choose your hidden power to pick your Check.

 

[Deck Knight]

It'd be wonderful if the people who keep tossing around the word broken would provide something more substantive than fear mongering and coverage charts.

Electivire had a kickass SE coverage chart too. So does Heatran / Pyroak because they too use Fire/Ground as their main coverage combo.

Here's a less colorful list of Pokemon taken from the scary coverage chart that initially outspeed 25f and can OHKO it without doing things like changing to HP Water (and thereby 2HKOing insteas of OHKOing Lando):

Crucibelle (Mega) [Head Smash]
Krilowatt [Scald]
Fidgit [Earthquake/ Earth Power]
Kitsunoh [Band EQ]
Pinsir (Mega) [Earthquake/Aerilate Return]
Charizard (Mega X) [Earthquake / Outrage]

To which the natural response might be "but at +1." Well, yes. Sweepers that have had a turn to set up are scarier than those that have not. What makes f unique is it doesn't have to sacrifice significant damage potential to get to a boost level that makes it more difficult to manage. That's an awesome niche, but it's also one invoking 75/90 Base Power moves that have no potential to be effective Z-nukes, at least not against the defensive Pokemon that make up the backbone of 25f's C+C list.

The C+C list does provide very good reasoning to avoid Rock Tomb and Aerial Ace because they invalidate too many counters via speed control and/or brute type advantage. But offensive mons having few switchins and being threatening once set up are not new, those two qualities are basic requirements of being effective offensive Pokemon. Effective Offensive Pokemon also inspire counterplay, often in the form of Scarf Pokemon, and Cap25f has both a 4x weakness that can also hit Lando-T if a Hidden Power slot is used, and for a lot of Pokemon Water Pulse is a move they can use that won't require changing Hidden Power typing. The other weakness is to Earthquake/ Earth Power which are also common moves.

As far as coverage, Storm Throw seems a bit too much as drawback-free Fighting coverage that fits on nearly any set, Force Palm's paralysis makes it similar to other speed control moves. Magnet Bomb seems mostly harmless because Flare Blitz would hit Clefable just as hard and has a huge Z-nuke. Double Kick and Rolling Kick seem like good options that hit a middle ground and are still Tech boosted.

 

[Roland le preaux]

Having put a lot of extra thought into it, I've concluded that we should deny Flare Blitz and Bonemerang/Bone Rush in favor of Flame Charge. I think it would be interesting to introduce a sweeper that has reliable set up and great coverage but lacks the raw power needed to get through physically defensive mons that it can only hit neutrally. I think that would be the healthiest and most unique version of 25f.

I have removed Bonemerang and Bone Rush from my Moveset Submissions. I will never remove Flame Charge because I'm intent on making a speed-boosting 25f viable and I would not have voted for Technician had I thought that we would deny that move. For those who think Flame Charge is overpowered and Bone Rush or Flare Blitz is necessary, we've discussed this enough that we'll just have to agree to disagree until voting.

I also support Pursuit because I believe it will add diversity to 25f sets without being overpowered and reward skillful plays like double-switching into a predicted Necturna.

 

[Wenderz]

I'm really starting to worry about ruining CAP 25f by keeping it from having powerful moves like Bonemerang and Flare Blitz, because I think it would fall in the category of offensive Mon that have an excellent offensive typing, but can't break through bulky things that it cannot hit super effectively.

Here's a C&C list for a CAP 25f WITH Bonemerang AND Flare Blitz:

Hide

Water-Types : CAP 25W, Rotom-W, Pelipper, Mantine, Gyarados
Dragon-Types : Latias-Mega, Latios-Mega, Hydreigon
Other Ground immunities: Tomohawk, Stratagem, Aerodactyl-Mega, Moltres
Priorities: Colossoil, Revenankh, Ash-Greninja, Azumarill
Faster mons and especially faster Scarfers : Greninja, Crucibelle-Mega, Pajantom, Kartana, Syclant, Kitsunoh...

If we decide to deny Bonemerang and Flare Blitz, then we would add Arghonaut, Pyroak, Tornadus-T and a bunch of physically bulky Mon into this list. However, I think that the addition of these two moves doesn't really discourage the use of Flame Charge because the standard set would probably be : Bonemerang / Flare Blitz / HP Ice or maybe HP Elec / Filler (one of Flame Charge , SR or Toxic), granted we don't add another valuable coverage move. I think that running two Fire STAB is perfectly fine when you don't need the power of Flare Blitz, as you will boost your Speed and avoid the additionnal recoil. Some might say that all of these could make our CAP broken, but on the contrary I'm very skeptical that a Sweeper with limited fire power which relies on SE moves to kill bulky things and that can boost its offensive stats and its speed significantly with one move would be really effective. Besides, even though my C&C list includes some niche Mon (Hydreigon and Aero-Mega don't fall in this category though), it's not like it was almost empty either and it proves that CAP 25f wouldn't just roll into some playstyles, we're not on the same wallbreaking level than, say, Hoopa-U.

 

[G-Luke]

I said I would never post a set in this....sigh

Big Disclaimer: Its noted in the post, but already people have been overlooking it. I am neither anti Flare Blitz nor anti Flame Charge. This post is suppose to show that if we forgo strong Fire STAB, that Bonemerang shouldn't be off the table. Hence why I specifically calc'd ground immunities, as they would not be threatened by Bonenerang, and would check us easier if we go the route ppl are pushing.

Hey guys. As of recent, a large anti Flare Blitz stance, and an anti Flame Charge stance has established itself. Its time for me to be the Devil's advocate, and in line of both of those stuff potentially getting the banhammer, I am going to show why I support........for Bonemerang.

Moveset Submission

Name: Bonemerang Boi (Utility Attacker)
Move 1: Bonemerang
Move 2: Flame Wheel
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Morning Sun
Move 4: Spikes
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe or 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Jolly

• Bonemerang is a powerful STAB option that, after Technician, reaches 150 BP, allowing it to nuke threats on the opposing team.
• Flame Wheel is a reliable secondary STAB option that reaches a respectable 90 BP after Technician.
• Hidden Power Ice operates as a pseudo-Ice Beam, allowing to threaten Landorus-T and Zygarde, two very potent Pokemon in the metagame. Its also its best attack against Tomohawk.
• Morning Sun on the other hand allows CAPf to heal off hazards, resisted hits and LO recoil, moat notably used on the myriad of switches it can force.
• Spikes provides CAPf with utility options that can be used to wear down its checks for later in the battle
• Toxic can also be used in the last slot to wear down mons such as Zapdos and Tomohawk.

CAPf is a very political Pokemon. I've seen it fuel discussion that can upset the very fabric of how CAP currently operates. With such a controversial Pokemon being created, arguments are bound to pursue. The most recent controversy surrounding it is the moves that this Pokemon can potentially receive, specifically the STAB attacks. One set of contributors are anti Flare Blitz-pro Flame Charge. Another side is anti Flame Charge (with no unanimous stance on Flare Blitz). With so little support for the move, I can expect it is very likely for Flare Blitz to get the ban. On the flip side, Flame Charge also has very potent arguments on the ban side, discussing how this mon potentially destroys the Scarf strategies that are already in flux trying to adjust to SS Necturna, and that after a +1 offense has very little counterplay to a LO boosted attack. While pro Chargers arguments that I have seen boil down to "we want this Pokemon to be a sweeper, it supports the concept and Flame Charge + Flare Blitz is broken so ban Flare Blitz!" Personally, I don't see the need to ban either of these attacks, and if I were forced to choose, I'd ban Charge, as meta stability > fulfilling concept in my opinion. Now with that out of the way, to the meat of the matter. I am not pushing for Bonemerang to just be allowed willy nilly with no further argument. What I am doing, is highlighting just how potent Bonemerang actually is in the hypothetical future that both of the controversial Fire STABs get banned (which is not that hard to see tbh). To take a quick look at C&C we specifically push out around three Pokemon (Clefable added to C&C was very stupid in my opinion and just needlessly adds very hard pressure to submit moves around and cripples the mon) - Pyroak, Chansey, Arghonaut.

Calcs

No Bonemerang calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 261-308 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 286-337 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Arghonaut: 181-214 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Arghonaut: 199-234 (48 - 56.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 152-179 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

With Bonemerang
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 226-268 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 206-244 (46.5 - 55%) -- approx. 7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Arghonaut: 272-322 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Arghonaut: 199-234 (48 - 56.5%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 428-506 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 392-462 (55.8 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You might be saying, if the point is just to highlight a couple counters this loses to, then what's the point? Its the absence of Fire STAB more powerful than Tech Wheel. With that as our strongest Fire attack, a lot more Pokemon can apply pressure on us without risking Blitz death. Which is important, as lacking a high power Fire STAB allows us greater flexibility on Ground STAB (see Bonemerang)

Calcs

Strategem

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 125-148 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 166-196 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With Flare Blitz gone, Strategem can actually switch in once and procede to threaten us out with its most common set atm (Paleo / FBlast / Dazzling), instead of either actually losing the matchup if it comes in on Blitz, or losing a high amount of health in the process if it comes in on a Ground attack.

Tomohawk
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 136-161 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- 9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 183-216 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Its not hard to see how much the matchup dramatically changes if Flare Blitz is dropped. Its important to note that while Blitz could have busted open Hawk, recoil, LO damage and potential Helmet damage (not shown here) would have killed it anyways. Its notable that HP sets can apply serious pressure on the hawk, 3HKOing it, but thats another can of worms altogether.

Tornados-T

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 212-251 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 285-335 (95.3 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 212-251 (58.5 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 282-333 (77.9 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tornadus-T is trickier due to its crippling weakness to Rocks and Hurricane's ludicrous accuracy, but even it can put CAPf in a tricky spot once its on if it lacks Blitz.

Another list of Pokemon that could check us if we go the high power Ground - low power Fire route include CAPw (actually allowed to beat us), Zapdos (especially fatter versions), Mega Venusaur carrying Earthquake, Snorlax in the way's ideal TR setters, all those crappy C rank mons on the C&C (looking at you Mega Aerodactyl). And since this hypothetical Bonemerang meta includes a Flame Charge ban, all of those lovely classic offensive checks that everyone is clamouring for can get the job done!

So yes, as I said earlier, this is not an explicit, let's jump on the Bonemerang train - this is to hopefully show the same people that are pushing for both of these bans that yh, if we both succeed, hopefully Bonemerang is not off the table. I also could not find a calc that is not present on the C&C in switch a mutual match up that beats Bone Rush, Earthquake and Bulldoze that loses to Bonemerang, but if you do find it, please bring it to my attention.

 

[snake]

Alright, let's get some key things out of the way.

1. Due to the nature of CAP25f's typing, CAP25f has to function as a wallbreaker, despite what its stats may read. Simply put, it beats out so many defensive cores that if we make it capable against offense, the metagame will crumble to it. There aren't enough sturdy Water-type priority users that can afford to run Aqua Jet to make it a stable, metagame threat. Therefore, there's one move that we absolutely cannot have, and that is Flame Charge.

2. Flame Charge causes many problems for the metagame. Consider the following moveset:

Name: Flame Charge?
Move 1: Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Flame Charge / Toxic
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Naive

Now, why is Flame Charge slashed with Toxic? Simple. You need a Fire-type STAB, a Ground-type STAB, and Hidden Power Ice to hit basically everything in the metagame. Does this coverage miss out on some pokemon? Absolutely. Does that mean it's healthy? Not exactly. If defensive teams have to run Pyroak, Tomohawk, Pelipper, Gyarados, etc. (which get hit by Hidden Power Electric or Toxic) then balance teams are really hard pressed to tackle CAP25f AND the multitude of other wallbreakers in the metagame. So how should balance teams circumvent this issue? Well, they can check it offensively, with a Pokemon that's faster than CAP25f. However, with Flame Charge...now you're making it a 50/50 whether you can actually switch in that offensive Pokemon. Because if Flame Charge connects, now CAP25f, with its really good 3 move coverage, just beats your offensive switch-in. This is especially true because due to CAP25f's Speed stat, it outspeeds common scarfers.

3. Now, what is this "offensive switch-in?" CAP25f with Flame Charge really doesn't care what the offensive switch-in is - just that if it connects the Flame Charge, then it can freely choose the correct move. If CAP25f does not have Flame Charge, then CAP25f has to predict - this is natural for a wallbreaker and much easier for balance teams to handle. Now, here's why I'm concerned for these offensive switch-ins...because there aren't any reliable ones, even with weaker STAB moves.

Calcs vs. "Offensive Switch-ins" using Flame Wheel + Earthquake + Hidden Power Ice + Flame Charge

Relevant Scarfers:

4 SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 369-437 (108.8 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 250-294 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock or Flame Charge damage on the switch
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 187-222 (66.5 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 471-556 (137.7 - 162.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumbao: 361-429 (111 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Non-Scarfers:

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crucibelle-Mega: 998-1175 (281.9 - 331.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Krilowatt: 507-601 (114.1 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 468-551 (180 - 211.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 270-320 (94.7 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 224-265 (85.8 - 101.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 261-308 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 212-251 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock or Flame Charge damage on the switch

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir-Mega: 252-299 (92.9 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 329-387 (131 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Basically...there's no really safe offensive switch-in to CAP25f except for Mega Latios, which is ok if CAP25f has to predict to make the KOs, but if you make it extremely easy to pick the correct move, i.e. allowing CAP25f to click Flame Charge, it places an unhealthy amount of stress on the opponent who's trying to make that switch-in.

4. Now, you might be thinking, why not tone down the power behind CAP25g's STAB moves (i.e. force CAP25 to use Flame Wheel and Earthquake, rather than Flare Blitz, Bonemerang, and Bone Rush) so that it can viably use Flame Charge? Well first, I showed that the weaker STAB moves still mess up our offensive counterplay, but CAP25f can still viably break down defensive cores with the same weaker STAB moves:

Calcs vs. Defensive Pokemon using Flame Wheel + Earthquake + Hidden Power Ice

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Celesteela: 283-338 (71.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 369-437 (96.5 - 114.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 322-380 (89.9 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 351-413 (96.6 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Jumbao: 307-367 (79.1 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 749-889 (194 - 230.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Gastrodon: 265-313 (62.3 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Arghonaut: 181-214 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 173-204 (43.9 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 166-198 (43.3 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(not how that Argho, Zapdos, and Clefable can be 2HKOed if it's chipped just a little bit)

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 273-322 (90 - 106.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 252-299 (60 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Scizor-Mega: 406-484 (118.3 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In short, Pyroak and Tomohawk are CAP25f's reliable defensive answers, and Clefable, Zapdos Arghonaut have to stay extremely healthy not to be 2HKOed by Earthquake. Then you have Pelipper and Gyarados trying to check it defensively but surprise Hidden Power Electric knocks those out. So, it's not exactly fair to say that we can increase the defensive counterplay to CAP25f by disallowing Flare Blitz and Bonemerang - defensive cores will still be dismantled very easily by CAP25f, especially with team support.

5. To conclude, CAP25f must be a wallbreaker due to its typing. Its stats, for better or worse, force Flame Charge to be disallowed, because there's no reasonable way to balance CAP25f against balance cores, so we MUST leave offensive counterplay as a solution for CAP25f. Otherwise, it will be a huge straining force on the metagame, where it's unreliable to check offensively and defensively. By disallowing Flame Charge, we open up the possibility of allowing stronger STAB moves that focus on breaking down defensive cores WHILE leaving good offensive counterplay to CAP25f, resulting in a healthier addition to the metagame.

 

[Mx]

I disagree with snake's post, I think that Flame Charge will not be broken on CAP 25f, especially if we don't allow Flare Blitz, and it's most likely the best way to fulfill our concept.

While it might be true that at +1 Speed the offensive counterplay to CAP 25f is limited, there will still be many ways in which those teams will be able to play around it. For example, most offensive teams already use fast Scarfers, like Greninja and Kitsunoh, as they are necessary to check SS Necturna, and will be able to revenge kill us (252 Atk Kitsunoh Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 258-304 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). On top of that, using Flame Charge against these kind of teams is already pretty difficult as nearly all of their common members are faster than us and can threaten to deal severe damage. Even Tapu Koko, a mon that is unable to deal any significant damage with its usual moves, can still simply pivot out with U-Turn onto something else. Against slower targets on the other hand, trying to use Flame Charge is a 50/50 situation too, as the damage dealt to neutral targets is not really impressive, so a bad prediction will cripple CAP 25f severely.

Something else about snake calcs that I find unrealistic is adding Life Orb. I really don't think that particular item is ideal for CAP 25f, as the recoil it deals, in addition to Spikes/Rocks damage, makes us a lot more susceptible to priority, another way in which offense could deal with CAP 25f, so if you choose that item, after a few turns, you won't be able to avoid being revenge killed by these moves. Of course, without the power that LO gives you, then you suddenly are unable to score crucial KOs on neutral targets like Tornadus-T and Tapu Lele, which then would be able to serve as emergency stops too. There are a lot of other items to consider, but Z-moves are one-time use and can be played around, Expert Belt only affect Super Effective hits, making it useless against neutral targets, and Charcoal/Soft Sand will only boost one of our moves.

Relevant priority moves

204+ Atk Colossoil Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 160-190 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 200-236 (63 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 166-196 (52.3 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Syclant Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 127-150 (40 - 47.3%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 126-148 (39.7 - 46.6%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 216-264 (68.1 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Finally, it's not like this kind of power is unprecedented on the metagame, Naviathan has a similar speed tier to CAP 25 f, even more powerful moves like Facade, Icicle Crash and Heavy Slam, an arguably better defensive typing that allows it to set up on non-Low Kick Mega Crucibelle, Tornadus-T and Choice locked Tapu Lele, can further boost its power with Dragon Dance, and yet it is currently ranked B+. This facts alone makes me skeptical that Flame Charge is too powerful for us, at least by itself.

Now, changing the subject, I strongly oppose to Twinneedle, or any other Bug-type coverage. Both Mega Latis are easily our best offensive checks, so I believe that picking a move that can deals significant damage to them is a terrible idea. I also dislike the idea of being able to guarantee damage on mons that we force out, so I oppose Pursuit too.

On the topic of Flare Blitz, I still don't think it would be overpowered, even alongside Flame Charge, because its power comes at the price of having significant recoil, making it risky to use. Additionally, including it could serve as a test of how good Technician Flame Wheel truly is, as some sets might prefer one over the other, letting us observe where this Technician boosted move truly shines, and where its simply not as useful as the usual physical Fire STAB. However after reading jas's post, I think that it would be better if we simply focus on abusing Flame Charge, and Flare Blitz could be a distraction, so I think that it would be safer if it was disallowed.

 

[SHSP]

While it might be true that at +1 Speed the offensive counterplay to CAP 25f is limited, there will still be many ways in which those teams will be able to play around it. For example, most offensive teams already use fast Scarfers, like Greninja and Kitsunoh, as they are necessary to check SS Necturna, and will be able to revenge kill us (252 Atk Kitsunoh Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 258-304 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). On top of that, using Flame Charge against these kind of teams is already pretty difficult as nearly all of their common members are faster than us and can threaten to deal severe damage. Even Tapu Koko, a mon that is unable to deal any significant damage with its usual moves, can still simply pivot out with U-Turn onto something else. Against slower targets on the other hand, trying to use Flame Charge is a 50/50 situation too, as the damage dealt to neutral targets is not really impressive, so a bad prediction will cripple CAP 25f severely.

I'd like to chime in on this part of the argument for flame charge's inclusion from my own experience. We're not clicking it against fatter, slower teams; it's the unused fourth moveslot behind Other Fire Stab/Ground Stab/HP Ice. What flame charge does is kick offense's ass totally. The hardest part with a flame charge 25f vs offense is getting it in on something like a Koko Tbolt; from there we can click flame charge on the switch and mangle whatever really wants to check us. Yes, there are often going to be 50/50 double switch situations, but losing one does not cost you your 25f, just tempo and momentum, which happens to be what 25f with charge excels at getting once it gets in. Offensive teams often lack the bulk to punish weaker fire stab a la charge, cause they often cannot outspeed and get beaten by charge+the next turns move. Looking at the current VR (will follow up with a post on VR changes if prompted to, since I know that'll be soon), the common "fast scarfers" that are able to beat us at +1 are Greninja (A), Kartana (A, with scarf being in contention/outclassed by Z-move and Band sets), and Kit (B+, on a mon that is already struggling from 4mss and is forced to run EQ to reliably beat 25f without chip). The offensive counterplay to this is frankly not strong enough, even with Blitz recoil pushing it into priority range and the fact a handful of modern scarfers beat it, and offensive teams can't rely often on eating a flame charge and another hit with moderate bulk.

On the topic of Blitz: I don't really see what the point or the reason to remove Blitz is. I'm heavily anti-flame charge- I can't agree more with what Snake posted and from personal experience think it's the absolute worst thing we could give 25f- but even considering that it seems like Blitz is healthier to have. If this gets Charge and Wheel only, Flame Wheel is still going to hurt offensive teams quite a bit cause they still need to eat two hits on a mon. Wheel is a move that's more dangerous for offensive teams at least hypothetically cause 25f won't kill itself into priority range/weaker scarf attacks with recoil. Removing Flare Blitz just to enforce the use of Flame Wheel when with both in a movepool, sets aiming for longevity will still choose Flame Wheel seems like a way to force the concept to happen regardless of the situation of the mon we're making. We detract from both the best role of this mon has been in practice and on paper, wallbreaking/hitting bulky shit for a ton, and offensive counterplay by removing recoil. I don't see harm in having both Wheel and Blitz.

25F is not going to be a broken Pokemon. As it stands, it's very matchup dependent- Quite a bit stronger into defensive teams that need to play and pivot carefully around it's strong STAB combo and give it more chances to come in, but weaker into offensive squads that give it a hard time getting into the game in the first place and force it into 50/50s. Flame Charge can weaken our MU into the former slightly, as we're giving up a utility slot that could be spikes, toxic, or the like, but it completely removes a major balancing weakness into offensive teams and has serious strength. The argument that the metagame will adapt is valid, yes, but to that I have two counterpoints:

1- SS Z-Ghost Necturna was a set that forced a lot of metagame adaptation when it was introduced/created. Arghonaut's moveslots got further limited, often/always forced to run Knock Off or Ice Punch to prevent it from Subbing up. Scarf Kitsunoh saw a rebirth as it's able to revenge Nect at +2 speed. Necturna is a big reason for the rise of pursuit trapping of Weavile, and the newer Band Syclant set that revenges with Ice Shard. The metagame, down to team composition that now often gives Necturna fits as it needs the one-use Z move for multiple threats, has adapted. Necturna is still borderline S rank, and in discussion for moving there this VR cycle. The metagame adapted quite seriously to this new, extremely powerful sweeper, and it remained in top ranked discussion. It maintained a high winrate and modest usage through the back end of CAPTT when teams were beginning to figure it out. Metagame adaptation cannot be counted on as a balancing factor.

2- We build for the current metagame. No one is arguing the metagame won't adapt to three new competitive mons being added to it, and for all we know we could stack these mons full of every option and in a meta shift they'll be garbage. Until that meta shift happens, however, we're just theorymonning; suggesting what might happen or should happen is not definite. Perhaps we talk up new counterplay creation the entire process, the mon is released, and none of what we predicted to happen works and the mon is insane. In addition, CAP builds for the current competitive metagame. It says it in the mission statement, outdated as it may be ("The CAP project inspires various interesting discussions about Pokémon, the spirit and mechanics of the game, and most importantly, in-depth analysis of the current competitive metagame."), and this, combined with my earlier point about metagame adaptation being vastly overstated, is my issue with assuming that we can do X Y Z things to any of these CAPs and assume they'll be fine or future-proof.

 

[Deck Knight]

.

Moveset Submission

Name: Resist Berry "Double Dance"
Move 1: Bulk Up
Move 2: Flame Charge
Move 3: Earthquake
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Electric
Ability: Technician
Item: Shuca Berry / Passho Berry
EVs: 192 Atk / 48 Def / 16 SpA / 252 Speed
Nature: Naive

• EVs allow 25f to survive Stealth Rock + 1x Landorus EQ, whilst still outspeeding Scarf Lando at +1 and OHKO with HP Ice after SR, or OHKO Defensive Pelipper with HP Electric after SR.
• Bulk Up provides 25f a boosting move that patches up its weaker physical defense while also increasing its offensive pressure. On the Passho set it allows +1 Def CAP to survive Gyarados Waterfall and 2HKO with HP Electric.
• Flame Charge's +1 Speed boost allows this set to outrun 95 Speed Scarf Pokemon like Volkraken, Colossoil, Tapu Lele, and Landorus-T to threaten them with Earthquake or HP-Ice.
• Earthquake's consistent high damage on this set is preferable to Bulldoze's speed control on opponents.
• Hidden Power Ice deters Landorus-Therian, Zygarde, and Garchomp from switching in and hard countering, while Hidden Power Electric serves the same purpose for Gyarados and Pelipper
• Naive nature is unfortunate for some special defensive calculations, however Shuca is still effective against Earth Power whereas Hasty would undermine Earthquake, Waterfall, and general physical bulk calculations.

I modified Dogfish44's set because it was the closest set around to utilizing resist berries. With only two weaknesses and an ability to hit some of the major threats that attack with STAB on those weaknesses, 25f can put together a great Resist Berry set that allows it to use its decent speed tier, strong STABs, and Hidden Power coverage to apply a lot of offensive pressure. Having a "Double Dance" set with Bulk Up and Flame Charge as boosters is a unique take on the archetype, and CAP 25f is uniquely suited to pull it off.

 

[snake]

I disagree with snake's post, I think that Flame Charge will not be broken on CAP 25f, especially if we don't allow Flare Blitz, and it's most likely the best way to fulfill our concept.

While it might be true that at +1 Speed the offensive counterplay to CAP 25f is limited, there will still be many ways in which those teams will be able to play around it. For example, most offensive teams already use fast Scarfers, like Greninja and Kitsunoh, as they are necessary to check SS Necturna, and will be able to revenge kill us (252 Atk Kitsunoh Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 258-304 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). On top of that, using Flame Charge against these kind of teams is already pretty difficult as nearly all of their common members are faster than us and can threaten to deal severe damage. Even Tapu Koko, a mon that is unable to deal any significant damage with its usual moves, can still simply pivot out with U-Turn onto something else. Against slower targets on the other hand, trying to use Flame Charge is a 50/50 situation too, as the damage dealt to neutral targets is not really impressive, so a bad prediction will cripple CAP 25f severely.

Something else about snake calcs that I find unrealistic is adding Life Orb. I really don't think that particular item is ideal for CAP 25f, as the recoil it deals, in addition to Spikes/Rocks damage, makes us a lot more susceptible to priority, another way in which offense could deal with CAP 25f, so if you choose that item, after a few turns, you won't be able to avoid being revenge killed by these moves. Of course, without the power that LO gives you, then you suddenly are unable to score crucial KOs on neutral targets like Tornadus-T and Tapu Lele, which then would be able to serve as emergency stops too. There are a lot of other items to consider, but Z-moves are one-time use and can be played around, Expert Belt only affect Super Effective hits, making it useless against neutral targets, and Charcoal/Soft Sand will only boost one of our moves.

Relevant priority moves

204+ Atk Colossoil Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 160-190 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 200-236 (63 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 166-196 (52.3 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Syclant Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 127-150 (40 - 47.3%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 126-148 (39.7 - 46.6%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 216-264 (68.1 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Finally, it's not like this kind of power is unprecedented on the metagame, Naviathan has a similar speed tier to CAP 25 f, even more powerful moves like Facade, Icicle Crash and Heavy Slam, an arguably better defensive typing that allows it to set up on non-Low Kick Mega Crucibelle, Tornadus-T and Choice locked Tapu Lele, can further boost its power with Dragon Dance, and yet it is currently ranked B+. This facts alone makes me skeptical that Flame Charge is too powerful for us, at least by itself.

Now, changing the subject, I strongly oppose to Twinneedle, or any other Bug-type coverage. Both Mega Latis are easily our best offensive checks, so I believe that picking a move that can deals significant damage to them is a terrible idea. I also dislike the idea of being able to guarantee damage on mons that we force out, so I oppose Pursuit too.

On the topic of Flare Blitz, I still don't think it would be overpowered, even alongside Flame Charge, because its power comes at the price of having significant recoil, making it risky to use. Additionally, including it could serve as a test of how good Technician Flame Wheel truly is, as some sets might prefer one over the other, letting us observe where this Technician boosted move truly shines, and where its simply not as useful as the usual physical Fire STAB. However after reading jas's post, I think that it would be better if we simply focus on abusing Flame Charge, and Flare Blitz could be a distraction, so I think that it would be safer if it was disallowed.

If Tornadus-T and Tapu Lele are "emergency stops" and not "consistent offensive checks," idk what we're trying to work with here. The fact is that if you recalc all of the defensive Pokemon with Soft Sand Earthquake or whichever boosting item you prefer, you really only gain Zapdos as a defensive check since things still get 2HKOed or OHKOed (especially when factoring in Flare Blitz), but by the threatlist, we're supposed to force out Zapdos, not the other way around. If we can't break Zapdos, then it'll Roost and wear us down with Hidden Power Ice, so that just seems like a loss on our part.

Generally speaking, most offensive switch-ins, even without Life Orb, still die to Flame Charge damage + whichever-move-is-best-that-you-get-to-pick-because-you-outspeed. Because we have a stat spread of 97 and outspeed most of the current scarfers, the offensive counterplay is, again, extremely limited. CAP25f fully has the capability to gain free Flame Charge boosts against the opponent. If you ever use Fire Blast with Scarf Volkraken, CAP25f can easily setup Flame Charge and Scarf Volkraken suddenly doesn't check it anymore. Tapu Koko literally cannot click Thunderbolt as long as CAP25f is alive or else CAP25f will get another free Flame Charge boost. Celesteela gets scared out by a stronger Fire-type STAB move, switches to Volkraken, and CAP25f uses Flame Charge instead. The 50/50 there shouldn't be a potential win condition being met for CAP25f, where it beats Volkraken or forces it out. The 50/50 in favor of CAP25f should be risking the Ground-type STAB, given its good coverage and power.

You assume that Life Orb is necessary for CAP25f to achieve the power to reach relevant 2HKOs and OHKOs but...Soft Sand works just fine.

The same calcs against "offensive switch-ins" CAP25f @Soft Sand with EQ, Flame Wheel, Hidden Power Ice, and Flame Charge

Relevant Scarfers:

4 SpA Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 284-336 (89 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 58-70 (15.1 - 18.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Easy OHKO after rocks or Flame Charge damage

252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 144-171 (51.2 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Straight up 2HKO with Flame Charge

252 Atk Soft Sand Camerupt Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 438-516 (128 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Still OHKOs

252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumbao: 234-276 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Straight up 2HKOs with Flame Charge

Non-Scarfers:

252 Atk Soft Sand Camerupt Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crucibelle-Mega: 916-1084 (258.7 - 306.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Still OHKOs

252 Atk Soft Sand Camerupt Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Krilowatt: 470-554 (105.8 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Still OHKOs

252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 360-424 (138.4 - 163%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Still OHKOs

252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 78-93 (27.3 - 32.6%) -- 79.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Soft Sand Camerupt Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 252-297 (88.4 - 104.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
OHKO after Stealth Rock or Flame Charge

252 Atk Soft Sand Camerupt Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 207-244 (79.3 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 129-153 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
2HKOs with Flame Charge

252 Atk Soft Sand Camerupt Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 240-283 (77.6 - 91.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 75-89 (24.2 - 28.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
Pajantom dies to Flame Charge + Earthquake

252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 163-193 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 136-162 (45.4 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Tornadus-T actually gets 2HKOed with 2 low rolls, as it has 299 HP

252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir-Mega: 194-230 (71.5 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
2HKOed by Flame Charge, and Quick Attack...
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Camerupt: 135-159 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Soft Sand Camerupt Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 255-301 (101.5 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Still OHKOs

The same calcs against defensive switch-ins CAP25f @Soft Sand with EQ, Flame Wheel, and Hidden Power Ice

252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Celesteela: 218-260 (54.9 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 284-336 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
then you tap it with another move and it falls over

4 SpA Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 248-292 (69.2 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
you have to be more careful with Zygarde without LO, but it's not hard to chip Zygarde that much

252 Atk Soft Sand Camerupt Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 320-380 (88.1 - 104.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
oh good, it could survive. what's it doing back, at worst?
8 SpA Magearna Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Camerupt: 112-132 (37.2 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumbao: 278-330 (85.5 - 101.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
wow, a whole 20% chance of survival, what's it doing back?
0 SpA Jumbao Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Camerupt: 144-170 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Soft Sand Camerupt Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 688-816 (178.2 - 211.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Still OHKOs

252 Atk Soft Sand Camerupt Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Gastrodon: 246-289 (57.8 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Still 2HKOs

252 Atk Soft Sand Camerupt Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Arghonaut: 166-196 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Again...Argho has to play extremely carefully not to fall below ~80%.

252 Atk Soft Sand Camerupt Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 160-189 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Same here with Clef

4 SpA Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 128-152 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Defensive counterplay has reclaimed Zapdos!...which is something we wanted to beat with CAP25f...

252 Atk Soft Sand Camerupt Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 252-296 (83.1 - 97.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
In the event that Toxapex does survive an EQ, which would mean it got a free switch-in against a non-damaging attack and also didn't get poked by Spikes, it could do this back,
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Camerupt: 288-340 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
But...most of the time it's dying.

252 Atk Soft Sand Camerupt Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 234-276 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Still a 2HKO

252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Wheel vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Scizor-Mega: 312-372 (90.9 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
What's the worst it could do back? Toxic probably, but in terms of damage,
0 Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Camerupt: 69-81 (22.9 - 26.9%) -- 43.9% chance to 4HKO

So through all of that, what did we learn? Most offensive switch-ins either get 2HKOed by unboosted Flame Charge or some combination of Flame Charge + another move. If that other move OHKOs the offensive mon, Flame Charge + the other move OHKOs. On the defensive side, with Soft Sand Earthquake, Argho and Clefable get a slightly greater margin of error before they're then 2HKOed again, most other things have a great chance of being OHKOed, especially factoring in chip damage, and the only thing defensive counterplay gains back is Zapdos, which we said speciifcally in threats we wanted to beat. Literally the one mon that should have stayed on this list would be considered a defensive check. Basically, your assumption that Life Orb is necessary to make CAP25 gain the necessary power it needs to crumple teams over just doesn't hold - you still get crumpled by unboosted Fire-type moves and Soft Sand Earthquake. Sure, you're a little more reliant on chip damage, but the grand majority of the time, CAP25f is in the advantageous position. And then CAP25f can still run Life Orb is it really wants to, or other items to vary the benchmarks. Bottom-line is that Life Orb's power, while useful for a mixed Pokemon, isn't what makes CAP25f good against the metagame. It's the combination of CAP25's typing, coverage, and Base Speed stat that makes CAP25f able to crunch up the metagame with Flame Charge.

252 SpA Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 114-134 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I'm trying to keep an open mind here...but no one's provided a real reason that there's consistent, viable counterplay to Flame Charge CAP25f. This is mostly due to CAP25f outspeeding common Scarfers at Base 97 Speed. If we were at a lower speed, then I'd be more open to Flame Charge due to more expansive counterplay in the current metagame (as SHSP pointed out, we build for the current metagame, not a metagame where there are suddenly scarfers pop up to beat CAP25f). However, since a spread with such high base speed was voted in, I can't support a move that'll make a Pokemon that already pressures defensive teams pretty well threaten offensive and balance archetypes as well. There are other ways to fulfill concept, namely Flame Wheel, Bonemerang, Bone Rush, and Hidden Power Ice. The only common Technician user in CAP, Mega Scizor, runs 1 Technician move - Bullet Punch. Stratagem runs Levitate over Technician now, but if it run Technician, it'd be running at most two: Ancient Power and Hidden Power. We don't need to spam a moveset of 4 Technician moves to fulfill concept, nor do we need to make a Pokemon that mauls over all archetypes with STAB Fire- and Ground-type coverage with Technician boosted Hidden Power Ice mixed in.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Oh, are we arguing about Flame Charge? Someone get me a pen and paper.

I think snake has pretty much taken the words out of my mouth with the Flame Charge response. Thanks to surpassing that crowded base 95, heck, base 90 speed tier, CAP25f can easily Flame Charge any incoming switchins to get the free +1 Speed, allowing us to outspeed pretty much all relevant Scarf users like Jumbao, Lele, Landorus-T, and Volkraken. There are some that we don't immediately outspeed with one boost, but I'll get to those in a minute. Combine this with CAP25f's absurd coverage movepool, and we get an offensive Pokemon that can outspeed and KO most of our offensive checks, while still applying heavy pressure to the defensive ones. But because of how well snake_rattler did, I'll instead be replying to objections.

I disagree with snake's post, I think that Flame Charge will not be broken on CAP 25f, especially if we don't allow Flare Blitz, and it's most likely the best way to fulfill our concept.

This is purely subjective. We have gotten a whole bunch of submissions utilizing multiple different moves with great move interaction, such as Bonemerang, Hidden Power, Storm Throw, Magnet Bomb, and Flame Wheel, which are all pro-concept and add great competitive elements towards viability. Even Bulldoze shares the same power and focus on speed control that Flame Charge does, but it doesn't mess with our checks like the latter. Furthermore, Flare Blitz has gotten quite popular in the discussion and can be seen in a lot of different sets, and can offer a strong alternative set if combined with Blaze, meaning that it is quite unlikely to actually be cut.

While it might be true that at +1 Speed the offensive counterplay to CAP 25f is limited, there will still be many ways in which those teams will be able to play around it. For example, most offensive teams already use fast Scarfers, like Greninja and Kitsunoh, as they are necessary to check SS Necturna, and will be able to revenge kill us (252 Atk Kitsunoh Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 258-304 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). On top of that, using Flame Charge against these kind of teams is already pretty difficult as nearly all of their common members are faster than us and can threaten to deal severe damage. Even Tapu Koko, a mon that is unable to deal any significant damage with its usual moves, can still simply pivot out with U-Turn onto something else. Against slower targets on the other hand, trying to use Flame Charge is a 50/50 situation too, as the damage dealt to neutral targets is not really impressive, so a bad prediction will cripple CAP 25f severely.

I have multiple issues with this paragraph. First, the offensive checks you offer (Scarf Kit and Gren) are hardly able to switch into us safely, if at all, thanks to CAP25f's natural coverage abilities and power.

• 252 Atk Camerupt Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kitsunoh: 312-368 (103.6 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252 Atk Camerupt Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 189-223 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock worse with any decent attack boosting item, and Greninja needs Hydro Pump to kill it. It gets exactly one chance to switch in, and if it gets screwed up its no longer a good check.

A lot of the "faster mons" you say make it hard to click Flame Charge cannot switch into us safely at all thanks once again to our natural coverage, as stuff like Krillowatt and Mega Crucibelle is sniped by Earthquake, especially if we go an attack boosting item, Kartana dies to Fire-type moves, and Pajantom is weaker on the defensive side allowing for the 2HKO from Earthquake, meaning it can't switch in consistently. Your Tapu Koko example is particularly terrible, as any decent player sees the U-turn or hard switch and will predict the incoming Pokemon and use the correct move accordingly.

Something else about snake calcs that I find unrealistic is adding Life Orb. I really don't think that particular item is ideal for CAP 25f, as the recoil it deals, in addition to Spikes/Rocks damage, makes us a lot more susceptible to priority, another way in which offense could deal with CAP 25f, so if you choose that item, after a few turns, you won't be able to avoid being revenge killed by these moves. Of course, without the power that LO gives you, then you suddenly are unable to score crucial KOs on neutral targets like Tornadus-T and Tapu Lele, which then would be able to serve as emergency stops too. There are a lot of other items to consider, but Z-moves are one-time use and can be played around, Expert Belt only affect Super Effective hits, making it useless against neutral targets, and Charcoal/Soft Sand will only boost one of our moves.

Considering how terrible you make the other items sound and how many moveset submissions actually utilize Life Orb, I'd say at least for now that Life Orb is the optimal item for CAP25f, so I think it is fair for snake to use that as a base of calculation. Also considering as long as Flare Blitz isn't inherently part of that set, the damage isn't abhorently terrible and can still be dealt with using correct play. And snake already debunked the item problem, so refer to above. On a further note, the way you state Lele and Torn-T as "emergency checks" already shows that these Pokemon will not be reliable ways to defeat it.

On the note of priority users, I will give you Colossoil and Zygarde (and maaaybe Gren too), but the others still aren't safe on the switch in, and two examples in particular practically die to Flame Charge.

 

[Deck Knight]

I edited this into my last post but realized at this point is was better as a standalone post:

Regarding Flame Charge generally, I think the case for its power is overstated, or at least rather what it's supposed to do. What Technician Flame Charge does is take what most other Pokemon would get out of Fire Punch and add +1 Speed as the effect instead of burn. Interestingly enough, Mega Charizard X also has boosted Flame Charge (though Tech is stronger than Tough Claws) and it still prefers Dragon Dance as its speed boosting move. MegaZard X also has a Double Dance set with SD/Flame Charge that someone created although I haven't seen any replays to determine viability or not. Suffice to say Flame Charge in this instance provides two moves in one action, and the follow-up move is key. The Pokemon has to care little about Fire moves, and then be able to deal with Ground + Ice coverage, where Ice coverage really only matters if it's 4x effective.

While we may discuss things in the current meta, we can't spend all of out time talking about how CAP can adapt to the meta without mentioning other options available to meta threats. Any Pokemon using HP Ice primarily for Lando-T instead of Grass types can switch their Hidden Power type to Water and still get the 2x hit on Lando in exchange for wiping out 25f. Water Pulse has a fairly wide distribution and won't use up an HP slot for the mons who have both. Scarf Plasmanta for example has Water Pulse and it's a OHKO on uninvested 25f (barring the Passho set I just posted) that doesn't require changing Hidden Power.

Finally, as far as what the stats are intended to do, they were intended to respond to the bulky offensive nature of CAP's most prominent Scarf Pokemon, which shared as a general rule 91-95 Speed and a fairly large amount of bulk on one side or the other. Landorus-T has 90/89/80 Bulk with Intimidate, Volkraken has 100/80/100 Bulk (you aren't reading that wrong), Colossoil has 133/72/72 (who made that thing's stats? wtf.), Jumbao has 92/97/104, and Tapu Lele has 70/75/115. Viable CAP Scarfers keep getting fatter, and fatter, and fatter. What CAP 25f does is create a Pokemon that pressures those Pokemon, even Scarfed, if it gets to +1 Speed but is much, much frailer at 88/67/78. Does 25f fall in a single hit? Not generally, it's approximately as bulky as Tapu Koko physically (Koko's better defense) and Tapu Bulu on the special side (Bulu's better defense). But it doesn't come near approaching the Pokemon described above in bulk.

In short, 25f was not built to take huge STAB hits to mighty walls (though 116 Atk is no slouch offensively and the second highest attack stat submitted anyway). It was intended to rebalance offensive threats so that faster, frailer Pokemon could regain prominence against the large (relatively) bulk of major offensive threats. By having a relatively frail Pokemon they can't just switch in on and add to their already large list of blanket checked Pokemon, the opportunity for different threats arise. Not only is 25f frailer, it has an exploitable 4x weakness that can be hit by priority on both sides and shares the common Ground weakness many CAPs introduced into the meta also possess. It has pretty good type defense but its still missing those Grass and Ice resistances that were traded away for SR neutrality and Electric immunity.

So I'd say keep the walls as the primary checks and counters, and embrace 25f for the one role it excels in, high pressure one-turn setup focused around speed control. Is Flame Charge too much for putting the speed boost on your side? It might be. Rock Tomb probably is because it doesn't have anything immune to it and is fantastic general coverage. But Bulldoze and Mud Shot are perfectly acceptable options, and maybe even Electroweb because it too is speed control that has an immunity to it that can be exploited by opponents. It does allow for both Ice and Elec coverage on the same spread, but BoltBeam off of 88 SpA seems kind of underwhelming. Force Palm is generally inferior to Bulldoze damage-wise and Dragon Breath is strictly inferior to HP Ice, but their paralysis also introduces Speed Control onto 25f, though more severe and at a 30% rather than 100% chance.

 

[Mx]

by the threatlist, we're supposed to force out Zapdos, not the other way around. If we can't break Zapdos, then it'll Roost and wear us down with Hidden Power Ice, so that just seems like a loss on our part.

The threat list is a just a guideline. We have Technician, an above average SpA, and judging by the discussion so far, we'll probably get Hidden Power, meaning that Zygarde and Landorus-T are not going to be reliable checks. If we do remove Flare Blitz, then yes, Clefable and Zapdos will become more or less decent answers to CAP 25f, and can compensate for the loss of the latter two as counters, and there is nothing inherently wrong with that.

I'm trying to keep an open mind here...but no one's provided a real reason that there's consistent, viable counterplay to Flame Charge CAP25f. This is mostly due to CAP25f outspeeding common Scarfers at Base 97 Speed. If we were at a lower speed, then I'd be more open to Flame Charge due to more expansive counterplay in the current metagame (as SHSP pointed out, we build for the current metagame, not a metagame where there are suddenly scarfers pop up to beat CAP25f). However, since a spread with such high base speed was voted in, I can't support a move that'll make a Pokemon that already pressures defensive teams pretty well threaten offensive and balance archetypes as well. There are other ways to fulfill concept, namely Flame Wheel, Bonemerang, Bone Rush, and Hidden Power Ice. The only common Technician user in CAP, Mega Scizor, runs 1 Technician move - Bullet Punch. Stratagem runs Levitate over Technician now, but if it run Technician, it'd be running at most two: Ancient Power and Hidden Power. We don't need to spam a moveset of 4 Technician moves to fulfill concept, nor do we need to make a Pokemon that mauls over all archetypes with STAB Fire- and Ground-type coverage with Technician boosted Hidden Power Ice mixed in.

As someone who mostly plays balance, I feel pretty safe saying: CAP 25f is not scary for that playstyle, at all. Most decent balance team already pack one of Tomohawk, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mega Latios, Latias, Zapdos, Revenankh or Clefable, all of which will stop most CAP 25f sets. True, some of them can be beaten after some previous damage, or with proper team support, but that can be said of almost any offensive mon. Its offensive counterplay is admittedly more limited, but it is still there, for starters, not many offensive mons give you a free turn to set-up, I think that Tapu Koko is probably is probably the only one that does this consistently Heatran, Jumbao, Tapu Lele and Landorus-T do this to a lesser extent, but can also deal severe damage or outright KO us with the right prediction, so setting on them is a 50/50. Mega Latios still beats any set unless we give it coverage, Fast scarfers can still revenge kill us a +1, Priority can finish us off at low health. And again, this kind of counterplay is not even unprecedented, Naviathan with DD/Facade/Waterfall/Icicle Crash has significantly less offensive counterplay, and it is still clearly balanced.

So, overall, there are many ways in which you can have offensive counterplay to CAP 25f:

-Fast Scarfers (Kitsunoh, Greninja, Kartana) And again, offensive teams in the current metagame, are already heavily pressured to include one of these, as it helps to revenge kill SS Necturna, so I don't think they'll even have to change that much.
-Mega Latios. Unless we screw up on this stage, this mon will be a solid offensive counter.
-Ash Greninja. It might not be the best Greninja form currently, but it is still a very viable and dangerous mon, and Water Shuriken will virtually always KO.
-Gyarados/Pelipper. These two might not be too common, but they can still check CAP 25f, unless it runs HP Electric, which would leave you without anything against Zygarde and Landorus-T
-Emergency checks/neutral targets. Because of the overall poor damage output that CAP 25f has without using Life Orb, it will fail to KO healthy targets, ending its sweep unless the opposing team has been weakened beforehand. I mentioned Tapu Lele and Tornadus-T on my previous post, and these mons are pretty frail. There are many other bulkier mons that would also stop us, even on offensive teams. Colossoil can take an Soft Sand-boosted EQ (252 Atk Soft Sand Camerupt Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Colossoil: 237-280 (58.2 - 68.7%), offensive Zygarde is not OHKO'ed by non-Life Orb HP Ice without some investment, offensive Tomohawk can deal a ton of damage with any of its moves, Kyurem-B can also take a hit and Hawlucha takes 60% maximum, even without using any Seed.
-Offensive pressure: Again, not many mons will actually let us set up, and this means that at best, CAP 25f will have to rely heavily on prediction, and even if we can successfully set up, the opponent doesn't need to deal much damage to make us fall into the range of priority like Colossoil's Sucker Punch.

2- We build for the current metagame. No one is arguing the metagame won't adapt to three new competitive mons being added to it, and for all we know we could stack these mons full of every option and in a meta shift they'll be garbage. Until that meta shift happens, however, we're just theorymonning; suggesting what might happen or should happen is not definite. Perhaps we talk up new counterplay creation the entire process, the mon is released, and none of what we predicted to happen works and the mon is insane. In addition, CAP builds for the current competitive metagame. It says it in the mission statement, outdated as it may be ("The CAP project inspires various interesting discussions about Pokémon, the spirit and mechanics of the game, and most importantly, in-depth analysis of the current competitive metagame."), and this, combined with my earlier point about metagame adaptation being vastly overstated, is my issue with assuming that we can do X Y Z things to any of these CAPs and assume they'll be fine or future-proof.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure if I understand your point. Yes, we build for the current metagame. Yes, even if we made the 3 most disgustingly broken starters they might become garbage next generation. However, we are introducing a (or in this case 3) new threats, and the metagame will have to adapt to them. That is simply the way it is, and we shouldn't fear this change. When Pajantom was released, I had to throw away many of my teams, because they were to vulnerable to it. When Jumbao came in, many Rain teams became suddenly unviable, because it was specifically made to counter them. When CAP 25 releases, of course a lot of teams we made will lose against it, especially if they are the archetype that this CAP thrives against with Flame Charge, offense. If someone wanted to make a product that won't require any adaptation on the meta, the end result will have to be unviable by design, as it can't have too many good match-ups against any particular playstyles, otherwise, they would actually need to change, and so, why would you ever use it in the first place?

Also, LucarioOfLegends, of course the Scarfers I mentioned can be KO'ed with the right move. They are supposed to serve as revenge killers, getting on a free switch. And of course that "emergency answers" are not reliable, they should only be used as a last resource if you main answers fail, but still add to the list of possible ways to play around CAP 25f.

 

[escarlata]

If consensus is that Rock Tomb may be a bit too much, and if we don't want to drop physical Rock coverage entirely, our weakest options in terms of power will be Rock Slide and Smack Down at 75 BP.

Considering that 75BP is the lowest we can go with physical Rock coverage, the thing is that unless we are forgoing giving 25f physical Rock coverage altogether, being able to beat Gyarados is inevitable.

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 239-283 (72.2 - 85.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock​

252 Atk Camerupt Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 184-218 (55.5 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock​

​

Having said that, I realise that Smack Down is something that we have not discussed at all in this thread. It is one of those moves that definitely messes with our threatlist, but it may be sufficiently weak enough on its own that it may not necessarily be too much to handle.

 

[Sabbio]

I'd like to advocate for CAP 25f access to Flare Blitz. With a mon susceptible to all kind of hazards and therefore very prone to getting worn down, unable to switch into unresisted attacks due to decent but far from solid bulk, the sheer power Flare Blitz may offer would be balanced out by a very low staying power. Our HP number isn't very high either, therefore 25f wouldn't really be able to throw out many fblitzes against fatter targets before being snuffed out. While it's true that Wish exists and that Jumbao is imho a really good partner for it, the fact that it's not that difficult to force it out due to Flare Blitz recoil, less than fantastic bulk (which gets even lover if running hp ice or some kind of mixed set) which makes it both susceptible to every common scarfer both unreliable at checking by switching in consistently what is supposed to balances out the pros of having the move.
While 116 Atk it's not low by any means, as Incineroar has 115 and every VGC or NU player knows how much Adamant Incineroar hurts with flare blitz / knock off, it's not really up to OU standards either. Life Orb would make it pack a real punch, but if 25f would be running that it'd be able to throw out a couple of flare blitzes at most and then die. 116 it's not even that different to Infernape's 104 and people often complained how little damage it dealt back when it saw very little OU usage back in SM. Heck people complained even about Terrak's 129 attack not being able to deal enough damage to OU mons without a boosting item or at +2.
To be as exhaustive as possible, this is our check list:

Clefable calcs

252 Atk Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 160-189 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Meanwhile, with Bonemerang:
252 Atk Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 200-236 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- approx. 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Lando-T calcs

Gets bopped by hp ice on the switch but:
-1 252 Atk Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 94-112 (24.6 - 29.3%) -- 81% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery which is nothing

-1 252 Atk Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 132-156 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Mega Latis calcs

252 Atk Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 77-91 (21.1 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

252 Atk Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 90-107 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 28.6% chance to 3HKO

to be fair though:

252 Atk Life Orb Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 117-139 (38.8 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 151-179 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Tomohawk calcs

252 Atk Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 141-166 (34 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 162-192 (39.1 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 211-250 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Pyroak calcs

252 Atk Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 127-150 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 158-188 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- approx. 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

offensive Pajantom calcs

252 Atk Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 302-356 (97.7 - 115.2%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

Chansey calcs

252 Atk Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 302-356 (43 - 50.7%) -- approx. 1.2% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 240-283 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO [24.9 - 29.4% recoil damage] which is laughable

Arghonaut calcs

252 Atk Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 236-282 (58.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 94-111 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Gyarados

Pelipper

Mega Aerodactyl still takes nothing

Mega Swampert (and many other lesser used Rain sweepers) bops us whichever the set

My point is that this mon should absolutely get Flare Blitz. Bonemerang should be its main source of damage with Flare Blitz being its secondary, immune-less but at the cost of significant recoil option, which cuts even more in our bulk, even more so if running life orb. Flare Blitz does not mess up with our c+c list in the slightest.
I think that Bonemerang should be the crux of whichever its sets and should be balanced around it. I think it has some interesting capabilities as a stealth rocker as, similarly to how Nidoking works in UU, it's able to threaten a large number of mons with its STAB combination and scare them out to get them up.
I agree with snake_rattler regarding flame charge too.
I think that a common set would be:

Moveset Submission

Name: Soft Sand Stealth Rocks
Move 1: Stealth Rocks
Move 2: Bonemerang
Move 3: Flare Blitz
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Soft Sand
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Naive