CAP 25 - Part 9 - CAP 25f Moveset Discussion

[SHSP]

I don't quite understand why we're throwing around stuff like Beat Up and Twinneedle that seem to exist just to beat (mega) Lati@s. They're one of our splashable checks on Offense, we hit for 40~ with HP Ice regardless, and they don't do much of anything else. They don't help us beat some of the big targets we want to address now like bigger walls, most of whom resist. (mega) Lati@s are some of our better checks for archetypes that can very much struggle into us, namely BO, as they often will have to go to 50/50s on our stabs. The amount of stuff that I'd want to hit with either dark or bug type coverage over a stab move is very small; it really reads as an attempt to beat our some of our strongest offensive checks (that, again, we hit well with HP ice regardless on the switch, so they are checks and are forced to roost or take a lot to threaten a kill).

252 Atk Technician Camerupt Twineedle (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 152-180 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm unsold on Bullet Seed as of right now, really don't know where I stand. It seems less than useful outside of fat waters, with a lot of overlap with stabs, but I'm not sure if that's healthy to just remove waters from the C&C. I need to give it more thought, but at first it seems sketchy to me- I'm tentative on it.

Bone Rush calcs make my head hurt, trying to wrap my head around odds with miss+2-5 hits. At first glance it seems slightly stronger than EQ, but weaker than Rang, which seems like a happy median for everyone preaching we need to be even stronger. (please correct me if I'm wrong) Needs more thought as well cause quite honestly I'm a bit lost.

 

[Catalisador]

Moveset Submission

Set Name: special lure (balance breaker)
Move 1: Overheat / Fire Blast / Incinerate
Move 2: Earth Power / Mud Shot
Move 3: Acid Spray
Move 4: Magical Leaf / Hidden Power: Ice
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Item: Groundium Z / Firium Z / Shuca Berry

• Overheat was chosen as an option for a Fire-Z nuke. It provides a potent move that makes up for 25f's mediocre Special Attack stat;
• Fire Blast is an alternative to mantain a nice offensive presence without Special Attack drops;
• Incinerate is another pick that provides a 100% accurate Fire-type STAB option that also gets rid of pinch and resist berries.
• Earth Power is the most reliable special Ground-type STAB;
• Mud Shot is an alternative to provide 25f speed control without being overwhelming;
• Acid Spray is the main MVP of this set. It greatly increases 25f's matchup vs common balance builds while being very pro-concept;
• Magical Leaf allows 25f to hit bulky Water-types like Arghonaut harder;
• Hidden Power [Ice] is an option to hit Lati@s-mega for the 2HKO and Landorus/Zygarde harder.

I've chosen this set to be an alternative to the main physical set of 25f. It's 88 base Special Attack might seem lackluster, but it gives similar results as the physical variant to our Switch In list and Pressure list, while providing a better matchup against common balance builds and popular answers to 25f's physical variant.
I don't think posting the calcs for all the Switch In and Pressure list is relevant, since I already calced and it really doesn't have much difference from the physical to the special variant, so I'll focus on the things we are luring. If anyone has any questions about these lists, I will gladly send the calculations and explanation.

252 SpA Technician Numel Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios-Mega: 130-154 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Technician Numel Hidden Power Ice vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 212-250 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Technician Numel Acid Spray vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 110-130 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- 83.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Numel Fire Blast vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 301-355 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Numel Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 265-313 (67.2 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Numel Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 123-145 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Technician Numel Magical Leaf vs. -2 252 HP / 132+ SpD Arghonaut: 242-286 (58.4 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Technician Numel Magical Leaf vs. -2 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 151-178 (45.6 - 53.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This set provides better results against common balance builds by luring Clefable and Arghonaut, common answers for the physical variants of 25f and either forcing them out or KOing them.
I chose this submission because of the general lack of synergy between the physical variants of 25f and the ability Technician. I wanted to abuse the Technician ability as much as possible while keeping 25f's offensive presence. This set is a very healthy alternative that is pro-concept and fits 25f very well.
If anyone has any questions, I will gladly answer them.

 

[Deck Knight]

Moveset Submission

Set Name: special lure (balance breaker)
Move 1: Overheat / Fire Blast / Incinerate
Move 2: Mud Shot / Earth Power / Acid Spray
Move 3: Solar Beam / Acid Spray / Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Fire Spin / Sand Tomb Magical Leaf / Hidden Power: Ice
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Item: Grassium Z / Groundium Z / Firium Z / Shuca Berry

• Overheat was chosen as an option for a Fire-Z nuke. It provides a potent move that makes up for 25f's mediocre Special Attack stat;
• Fire Blast is an alternative to mantain a nice offensive presence without Special Attack drops;
• Incinerate is another pick that provides a 100% accurate Fire-type STAB option that also gets rid of pinch and resist berries.
• Earth Power is the most reliable special Ground-type STAB;
• Mud Shot is an alternative to provide 25f speed control without being overwhelming;
• Acid Spray is the main MVP of this set. It greatly increases 25f's matchup vs common balance builds while being very pro-concept;
• Magical Leaf allows 25f to hit bulky Water-types like Arghonaut harder; Solar Beam is a devastating nuke with Grassium that hits Water-types like Arghonaut for incredible damage. 25f also benefits in Sun from Water's damage reduction.
• Hidden Power [Ice] is an option to hit Lati@s-mega for the 2HKO and Landorus/Zygarde harder.
• Fire Spin or Sand Tomb turns the set into a true lure set that operates much like trap-Tran. Once the opponent comes in and gets trapped by Spin/ST, it's too late for them to get back out. Fire Spin/ST also gets a Tech boost, but the damage boost isn't the main draw.

I've chosen this set to be an alternative to the main physical set of 25f. It's 88 base Special Attack might seem lackluster, but it gives similar results as the physical variant to our Switch In list and Pressure list, while providing a better matchup against common balance builds and popular answers to 25f's physical variant.
I don't think posting the calcs for all the Switch In and Pressure list is relevant, since I already calced and it really doesn't have much difference from the physical to the special variant, so I'll focus on the things we are luring. If anyone has any questions about these lists, I will gladly send the calculations and explanation.

252 SpA Technician Numel Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios-Mega: 130-154 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Technician Numel Hidden Power Ice vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 212-250 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Technician Numel Acid Spray vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 110-130 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- 83.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Numel Fire Blast vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 301-355 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Numel Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 265-313 (67.2 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Numel Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 123-145 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Technician Numel Magical Leaf vs. -2 252 HP / 132+ SpD Arghonaut: 242-286 (58.4 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Technician Numel Magical Leaf vs. -2 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 151-178 (45.6 - 53.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This set provides better results against common balance builds by luring Clefable and Arghonaut, common answers for the physical variants of 25f and either forcing them out or KOing them.
I chose this submission because of the general lack of synergy between the physical variants of 25f and the ability Technician. I wanted to abuse the Technician ability as much as possible while keeping 25f's offensive presence. This set is a very healthy alternative that is pro-concept and fits 25f very well.
If anyone has any questions, I will gladly answer them.

With apologies to iFeedback for cannibalizing his set pretty heavily, The first move is your Fire STAB, the second move is going to be either your stat drop or pressure move (or Earth Power for Groundinium), your third slot for coverage on the Pokemon you want to lure most, and 4th slot goes to Fire Spin or Sand Tomb which locks the opponent in so they cannot escape the lure - they will tend to be expecting physical 25f. Fire Spin obviously hits more targets, but Sand Tomb works off the higher natural stat and hits a lot more potential targets for 4x damage if you opted for, say, Acid Spray instead of a Special Ground move.

As to Magical Leaf, while it's not a horrible idea I really don't like potential "Hidden Power expats" in too much of 25f's movepool. Magical Leaf may not hit Gyara or Peli SE, but it does hit most other Grass types hard and has no appreciable drawback. I'd rather use Solar Beam (which has been a staple on FE Fire types for a while now [random fact: Solar Beam gets the Tech Boost in Rain/Sand/Hail]) which is a little harder to use without a Z-Crystal even with Jumbao and Mala around. I think the trapping moves provide the same isolation and balance breaking potential as more coverage, but do so in a more straightforward way. That they also get the Tech boost is a cool aside.

 

[Catalisador]

With apologies to iFeedback for cannibalizing his set pretty heavily, The first move is your Fire STAB, the second move is going to be either your stat drop or pressure move (or Earth Power for Groundinium), your third slot for coverage on the Pokemon you want to lure most, and 4th slot goes to Fire Spin or Sand Tomb which locks the opponent in so they cannot escape the lure - they will tend to be expecting physical 25f. Fire Spin obviously hits more targets, but Sand Tomb works off the higher natural stat and hits a lot more potential targets for 4x damage if you opted for, say, Acid Spray instead of a Special Ground move.

I completely agree with Deck Knight's changes. I think trapping moves are the perfect way to fulfill this moveset's purpose. I agree that Z-Solar Beam is an amazing coverage option as well.
I have to mention that I still think Magical Leaf should be considered on non-Grassium Z sets to deal with bulky Water-types like Arghonaut a bit better.

 

[Warren685]

I think Acid Spray is a interesting option, basically no steel types would want to switch onto 25f so you can just use the move whenever you expect a switch such as a incoming check. Acid spray can let us hit hard or switch out to a special setup sweeper and basically force the opponent out or be mauled. The best way to play around Acid Spray might be a Sash set to tank a check and then after having them at -2 knock em out with Hidden Power or any either special moves such as Earth Power or Incinerate. Acid spray on predicted switch -> hp is going to do huge amounts of damages

 

[Deck Knight]

One last set because something was brought up:

Moveset Submission:

Name: Priority Attacker
Move 1: Fake Out
Move 2: Bullet Punch / Feint
Move 3: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 4: Bone Rush / Earthquake / Bulldoze
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Fake Out gets quick unanswerable chip damage to wear opponents down.
• Bullet Punch hits a select few Pokemon in the metagame that can give 25f trouble, notably Mega Crucibelle, Syclant, and Stratagem but also Kerfluffle. Fake Out + Bullet Punch makes a neat Sash Breaking and chip combo. It also lets you get the drop on Mega Gardevoir if that ever becomes popular again.
• Feint doesn't get any SE boost, but after Technician it's slightly stronger than Quick Attack and its +2 priority, non-contact, and Protect breaking distinguish it. While Bullet Punch is probably better in most circumstances, Feint can run through attempts to Protect Stall for recovery and can't be punished by Iron Barbs / Rough Skin / Rocky Helmet.
• Flare Blitz does immense damage but has a ton of recoil, especially with Life Orb. Flame Wheel is a less powerful option without the drawback.
• Bone Rush has immense damage potential, Earthquake is consistent, Bulldoze lets you slow down other switchins with priority and beat them to the (Bullet) Punch.

A pretty basic chip set with dual STAB. Bad against Lando-T, but super focused on quick unanswered damage. Technician makes this set incredibly dangerous against weakened teams, with Fake Out + Bullet Punch having a combined 120 BP priority despite lackluster offensive typing. Feint is a weaker 105 total, but it's boosted priority all the way and Feint has a few interesting properties.

 

[cbrevan]

Yo.

Bonemerang will be disallowed. Both camps arguing for and against Bonemerang put forth good arguments; however, Bonemerang simply puts too much pressure on our threatlist. The spike in power level between Bonemerang and Earthquake is great enough that access to Bonemerang would allow 25f to exert pressure on most grounded Pokemon in the metagame. While this would mean 25f is guaranteed to find success as a wallbreaker, it would also mean we've disregarded the threatlist we have been trying to abide to.

Competitively viable physical Rock-type coverage will also be disallowed. Unlike in other threads, its difficult to assign a BP cut off due to the boosting power of Technician, and I would prefer to not list out every Rock-type move disallowed. For clarity sake, I think we should consider anything with an effective base power, including after a Technician boost, of 75 or greater as competitively viable. Rock-type coverage is disallowed to make sure Flying-types such as Mega Aerodactyl can afford to switch into 25f.

Physical Bug-type coverage will also be disallowed. This is to prevent 25f from blowing past Mega Latios and Mega Latias.

Now onto our one approved set.

Name: 3 Attacks Breaker
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Toxic / Stealth Rock
Ability: Technician
Item: Soft Sand / Groundium Z / Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

This is a basic offensive set based off the three move coverage that was established earlier in the thread.

I'm sure some have noticed that I've only approved one set out of the entire thread. This is because there are moves on virtually every other set that I would like us to discuss further, or include moves that have been disallowed such as Bonemerang. These moves include potential coverage options such as Bullet Seed, status moves such as Will-o-Wisp, and set up options including Swords Dance, Work Up, and Bulk Up. Other sets to discuss are those with priority, such as the one Deck Knight posted above, as well as the special lure set posted earlier.

It would also be beneficial if people continue to post their thoughts on Bone Rush, specifically, if disallowing Bonemerang means we should disallow Bone Rush, a move that with favorable rolls can hit for the same amount of power (with a greater potential to crit no less). However, I want to stress that we need to be exploring other options outside of our STAB moves at this point if we want to have 25f do anything more than the above set.

 

[Warren685]

Competitively viable physical Rock-type coverage will also be disallowed. Unlike in other threads, its difficult to assign a BP cut off due to the boosting power of Technician, and I would prefer to not list out every Rock-type move disallowed. For clarity sake, I think we should consider anything with an effective base power, including after a Technician boost, of 75 or greater as competitively viable. Rock-type coverage is disallowed to make sure Flying-types such as Mega Aerodactyl can afford to switch into 25f.

Well, what about the rock move Accelerock? It's 60 BP after tech boost so it won't pack a punch compare to rock slide, but it would have priority to back it up.

 

[Sabbio]

As it was proposed for CAP25g I'd like to propose Brick Break for 25f too. Doesn't mess up with any of our counters nor checks bar Chansey with +2 Z Fight if we decide to give it Swords Dance, which I'm seconding to patch up Bone Rush relatively low reliancy. Brick break would allow us to break koko's screens and make us an all around counter to everyone of its sets.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw no discussion about Gravity, which could be an option to let us click Bone Rush more freely at the opportunity cost of running hazards (give us Spikes pls) / coverage move / boosting move. Work Up could be really interesting too if we decide to give 25f a couple of interesting special moves like Clear Smog and Acid Spray. I personally think these are pretty gimmicky but they are options nonetheless.
I'd like to see what do you think about Rock Polish too as it gives 25f a pretty nice way to pull off a late game sweep given its key resistances. Given our vulnerability to recoil, hazard damage and any form of priority I think the potency of the set would be balanced out and outplayed with decent teambuilding.
Wisp could be a really nice option on more defensive inclined sets, expecially if we are blessed with any kind of recovery move like Morning Sun. For example:

Name: SpDef
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Will-O-Wisp
Move 3: Morning Sun
Move 4: Stealth Rocks / Taunt / Earthquake
Ability: Blaze
Item: Leftovers / Iapapa berry
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

(The speed investiment could be tweaked to invest some more in spdef)
This set lets us take on stuff like Clef, non-Z Mage, Jumbao, Koko, Scizor very comfortably while also acting as a very nice bait to stuff like Gyara, Aero, Swampert, Pajantom, Latios, Gliscor and Zygarde just to name a few. Taunt lets us exploit our speed tier and stop fat mons from recovering up.
If we end up not getting Morning Sun dual stab is also a very acceptable option, as its coverage is godly plus Wish support is not unheard of in CAP. Another set I'd like to submit, probably quite gimmicky is:

Name: Sash Lead
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Endeavor
Move 4: Spikes
Ability: Blaze
Item: Focus Sash
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Very straightforward set, it's like Sash Lead Infernape but with spikes instead.

 

[Frostbiyt]

Moveset Submission

Name: All Out Attacker
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: HP Ice / HP Electric
Move 4: Bullet Punch / Force Palm / Poison Fang
Ability: Technician
Item: Z Crystal / Expert Belt / Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty (+Spe -Def)

• Flare Blitz is the strongest physical Fire attack available
• Flame Wheel is an alternative to Flare Blitz than can be run with Life Orb
• Earthquake is the strongest physical Ground attack available
• Bulldoze provides speed control for a small reduction in power
• Hidden Power Ice hits Pokemon such as Landorus-T and Zygarde
• Hidden Power Electric can be used to lure would be counters like Gyarados and Pelipper
• Bullet Punch provides priority that does minimal damage to our checks and counters list
• Force Palm can hit a couple Pokemon such as Colossoil a bit harder and provides additional speed control with paralysis
• Poison Fang can spread Toxic while also doing damage itself which could discourage certain pokemon from switching in such as Pyroak, Arghonaut, and Tomohawk

Moveset Submission

Name: Phazer
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: Circle Throw
Move 4: Stealth Rock / Spikes / Toxic Spikes / Moonlight
Ability: Technician
Item: Shuca Berry / Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly (+Spe -SpA)

• Flare Blitz, Flame Wheel, Earthquake, and Bulldoze are all strong STAB attacks that threaten many Pokemon
• Circle Throw allows 25f to phaze the opposing Pokemon and get chip damage on them from hazards
• Stealth Rock, Spikes, and T Spikes give 25f the hazards needed to phaze effectively
• Moonlight or other recovery may be used if it has hazard support from the rest of the team and would prefer more sustainability
• The EV spread isn't thoroughly thought out and is likely not optimal, but this set would likely want some extra bulk to live hits as it Circle Throws and high speed so it can still threaten many Pokemon with its STAB combo

 

[Roland le preaux]

I support Poison Fang as I think it generally has good coverage and nice utility with the Toxic chance. Like Clear Smog, I doubt it will be popular but I think it should be at least an option.

I would actually support disallowing Accelerock, because I think Syclant is an important member of our Pressure list and we shouldn't be able to OHKO it with such a good priority attack before it even has a chance to move. I do support Shadow Sneak and Quick Attack as healthier priority options. Mach Punch and Bullet Punch I'm less sure of, but neither can straight up OHKO Syclant or Strategem so I think they are still much healthier than Accelerock. I like Power-Up Punch because I think it provides threatening chip against defensive teams and Low Kick because it nails Chansey with a 90 BP Fighting type move thanks to Technician.

Anyway, here is a set where I tried to make use of Assault Vest to augment 25f's decent HP stat and good defensive typing. I'm not sure this set would be viable, but I think it could be a niche check to Tapu Koko, Magearna, Magnezone, and other special attackers whose dual STABs we resist.

Moveset Submission

Name: Niche Pivot
Move 1: Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: Poison Fang / Shadow Sneak Quick Attack
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty

• Flame Wheel is chosen over Flare Blitz to preserve health as much as possible
• Earthquake and Bulldoze provide Ground STAB that has amazing coverage along with Flame Wheel
• Poison Fang allows us to threaten status on defensive walls like Pyroak, Tomohawk, and Mega Latias.
• Shadow Sneak helps us take out weakened sweepers that outspeed us such as Necturna, Aurumoth, and Latios.
• Quick Attack helps us take our weakened sweepers that outspeed us, such as Syclant, Volcarona, and Latios.
• Hidden Power Ice prevents Landorus and Zygarde from switching in and threatening us with their Ground moves.
• Technician boosts the power of many of the moves on this set.
• Assault Vest helps us more reliably switch-in on special attackers like Tapu Koko, Magnezone, Magearna, Volcarona, Jumbao, Clefable, and Plasmanta sets lacking a Water move.
• A Hasty nature is preferred to take advantage of our strong speed tier, especially by outspeeding Timid Jumbao and Jolly Landorus.

Edit: removed Shadow Sneak in favor of Quick Attack, because I think Shadow Sneak needs more discussion.

 

[Warren685]

I would actually support disallowing Accelerock, because I think Syclant is an important member of our Pressure list and we shouldn't be able to OHKO it with such a good priority attack before it even has a chance to move. I do support Shadow Sneak and Quick Attack as healthier priority options. Mach Punch and Bullet Punch I'm less sure of, but neither can straight up OHKO Syclant or Strategem so I think they are still much healthier than Accelerock. I like Power-Up Punch because I think it provides threatening chip against defensive teams and Low Kick because it nails Chansey with a 90 BP Fighting type move thanks to Technician.

I fail to see how you think Syclant is 25f's most important pressure when something like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Crucibelle and Volkraken specially Choice Scarf Volk are better pressures on 25f also even if Syclant can't live a Accelerock the other pressures like Mega- Crucibelle and Mega-Aero can tank a hit and do massive amount of damage back for a trade or have Choice Scarf Volk possibly forcing it out that turn or killing 25f, the loss of Syclant isn't that big of deal compare to the other checks I mention. Also I don't know what you're talking about but Accelerock can't even OHKO Strategem.

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Accelerock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 123-146 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

One last set because something was brought up:

Moveset Submission:

Name: Priority Attacker
Move 1: Fake Out
Move 2: Bullet Punch / Feint / Accelerock / Quick Attack
Move 3: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 4: Bone Rush / Earthquake / Bulldoze
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
.

Just doing some minor adjustments to fit in Accelerock and Quick Attack to Deck's priority build. Btw Deck, Quick Attack is also stronger then Feint before and after Technician boost, nevertheless the options for each priority attack is still there handling different coverage, either by handling fairies like Mega Gardevoir or Jumbao with Bullet Punch or Feint to bypass protect Stalls.

 

[Deck Knight]

I'll make a longer post later, but specifically on priority I only support four moves: Fake Out, Feint, Bullet Punch, and Vacuum Wave.

Those four attacks have a specific purpose and balance to them.

Each of these moves has a purpose in a set to address some of the Pokemon we are supposed to pressure and / or threaten.

Fake Out is an excellent chipping tool and makes 25f better in the early game by allowing you to lead with it or come out of normally unfavorable double switches or pivots with more momentum (say a resisted U-turn pivot into Greninja. Smack it with Fake Out and run away after.)

Bullet Punch has a specific effectiveness profile that weakens it against Water and Fire(/Flying) types that check 25f, while Electric and Steel types struggle with 25f naturally. Super-effective hits against Fairy, Ice, and Rock help 25f with very specific pressure threats like Syclant, Stratagem, and Crucibelle.

Feint expands the ability to hit beyond Fake Out with priority, but not by too much. This is important to maintain checks like Greninja, Latios, and other low defense checks. It's ability to defuse Protect moves helps against Wish + Protect combination walls, and non-contact makes it less punishable.

Vacuum Wave works pretty much exclusively with Acid Spray special sets and is a bit weak otherwise. Mud Shot on the switch lets you outspeed Shuriken, HP Ice can KO Latis at -2 SpD. It's a beautiful little niche tool.

Problems with Quick Attack / Mach Punch / Shadow Sneak: Primarily its nuetral coverage and the ability to pile on 120 BP worth of priority damage. This is the same as STAB Extreme Spees in two phases and unhealthy in my view. Bullet Punch evades this by having such targeted resistances and weaknesses. Crucially, Bullet Punch is resisted by Greninja and Latios can bear it alright, whereas Shadow Sneak hits Latios too hard and Mach Punch hits Greninja too hard. One could argue Quick Attack is the most balanced of these but I'd prefer not to have a decent Silk Scarf priority set. Feint keeps that in check somewhat if you want to avoid LO recoil.

Problems with Accelerock / Aqua Jet / Ice Shard / Sucker Punch: All of the above, but they also deliberately mess with even more checks. Ironically, Aqua Jet is probably the least offensive of these. I know Sucker Punch isn't Tech boosted but it's the same concept.

 

[Roland le preaux]

I fail to see how you think Syclant is 25f's most important pressure when something like Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Crucibelle and Volkraken specially Choice Scarf Volk are better pressures on 25f also even if Syclant can't live a Accelerock the other pressures like Mega- Crucibelle and Mega-Aero can tank a hit and do massive amount of damage back for a trade or have Choice Scarf Volk possibly forcing it out that turn or killing 25f, the loss of Syclant isn't that big of deal compare to the other checks I mention. Also I don't know what you're talking about but Accelerock can't even OHKO Strategem.

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Accelerock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 123-146 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I didn't say Syclant was our "most important pressure" and I'm not sure that's even possible given that pressure is supposed to be an in-between definition. Anyway, I was saying that Mach and Bullet Punch don't OHKO Stratagem the way Accelerock OHKOs Syclant, since they aren't x4 effective. I'm sorry I made it a bit unclear.

Problems with Quick Attack / Mach Punch / Shadow Sneak: Primarily its nuetral coverage and the ability to pile on 120 BP worth of priority damage. This is the same as STAB Extreme Spees in two phases and unhealthy in my view. Bullet Punch evades this by having such targeted resistances and weaknesses. Crucially, Bullet Punch is resisted by Greninja and Latios can bear it alright, whereas Shadow Sneak hits Latios too hard and Mach Punch hits Greninja too hard. One could argue Quick Attack is the most balanced of these but I'd prefer not to have a decent Silk Scarf priority set. Feint keeps that in check somewhat if you want to avoid LO recoil.

I hardly think Silk Scarf + Fake Out + Quick Attack is a set that needs to be kept in check... Persian runs that in PU and it hits harder than 25f's would.
252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Camerupt Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 88-104 (29.2 - 34.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Persian Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 94-112 (31.2 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Also, that set isn't even really viable when Persian does it.

 

[Deck Knight]

I didn't say Syclant was our "most important pressure" and I'm not sure that's even possible given that pressure is supposed to be an in-between definition. Anyway, I was saying that Mach and Bullet Punch don't OHKO Stratagem the way Accelerock OHKOs Syclant, since they aren't x4 effective. I'm sorry I made it a bit unclear.



I hardly think Silk Scarf + Fake Out + Quick Attack is a set that needs to be kept in check... Persian runs that in PU and it hits harder than 25f's would.
252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Camerupt Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 88-104 (29.2 - 34.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Silk Scarf Technician Persian Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 94-112 (31.2 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Also, that set isn't even really viable when Persian does it.

Persian runs it in PU because it doesn't have, say, a competitive non-Tech attack stat and Fire/Ground dual STAB.

But please, continue the analogy of a mon with STAB Tech being marginally more powerful on those specific moves than a mon without STAB.

 

[faithviolet]

I support the all-out-attacker set posted by jas. Bullet seed is a powerful choice against particular sets, but doubles up on the ability for dragon-types and flying-types to switch in. Running Bullet Seed means that we don't get to Toxic defensive pokemon, and since our STAB is great offensively, we don't gain as much from coverage. This suggests to me that it is unlikely to be overpowered, and at the same time is feasible to run on a set, and is a way we can coordinate our movepool with our ability.

I also want to suggest the following sets:

Moveset Submission
Name: Mixed Attacker
Move 1: Burn Up / Overheat / Fire Blast
Move 2: Bone Rush / Earthquake
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Mud Shot
Ability: Technician
4 Atk / 252 Spa / 252 Spe
Item: Life Orb / Firium Z

Moveset Submission
Name: Choice Band Damage-dealer
Move 1: Earthquake / Bone Rush
Move 2: Flare Blitz
Move 3: Bullet Punch
Move 4: Bullet Seed / Storm Throw / HP Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Choice Band

The first is a way to play to the strengths of our STAB+Ice. Burn Up is a reliable fire-type STAB that can deal with many of our intended switch-ins, without requiring the extra power of Flare Blitz. It also deals with Pokemon that switch in with off-type ground-type such as Choice Scarf Kitsunoh or HP Ground Tornadus-T, removing the ground-weakness, while Grass-types are too scared of Fire STAB to switch in. Mud Shot is, like Bulldoze, good at preventing offensive switchins, and does enough damage to KO the Pokemon that are 4x weak to it that we can switch in on. (Plasmanta, Heatran) Hidden Power Ice is able to OHKO Landorus-T, and its increase in power due to SpA investment makes it less of a free switch-in.

The second is a Band set able to threaten to OHKO much of the metagame with its stab, and do massive damage if predicting correctly with its coverage move Bullet Seed, Storm Throw, or HP Ice. Priority in Bullet Punch lets it do like-STAB damage while still doing little damage against our checks. (having the possibility to threaten Mega-Crucibelle even when it switches in on us makes it more of an even matchup instead of it simply using the threat of head smash to force us out)

 

[Deck Knight]

So we're getting to that weird endphase, and cbrevan actually gave us a number of things to discuss by proxy by approving so few sets.

I've already made my case for Fake Out. Fake Out is an outstanding tool that lets you play 25f at different times than you otherwise would. It's pro-concept, by its nature it can't really 2HKO anything, but it is great built-in chip for 25f's great offensive typing.

For the remainder of moves, I'm mostly thinking of moves that could be useful as Z-Moves.

The coverage I'm really liking to maintain our threats list is Steel and minor Poison moves. Poison Fang is not as reliable for inflicting Toxic as Toxic itself, but it's a Tech-boosted attack for the 4th slot. Iron Tail gives 25f a means to break through Fairies quickly, especially with Hone Claws. That said, Z-Sets have a lot more incentive to run Blaze if they're a vanilla booster.

There was a list posted in g that was somewhat instructive, here's whats on my mind for competitive F:

Competitive Overview

Flare Blitz
Flame Wheel
Bone Rush
Earthquake
Bulldoze

Overheat
Fire Blast
Incinerate
Lava Plume
Fire Spin
Earth Power
Mud Shot
Sand Tomb

Hidden Power
Fake Out
Feint
Bullet Seed
Solar Beam
Bullet Punch
Iron Tail
Poison Fang
Acid Spray
Vacuum Wave

Bulk Up
Hone Claws
Work Up

Gastro Acid (Invalidates Levitate / Flash Fire vs STABs, see below)
Morning Sun
Stealth Rock
Toxic
Will-O-Wisp

I think this competitive list keeps us on track with the concept, promotes a variety of sets, and allows 25f to be an effective offensive toolbox. Some might even say this is a bit too large an array of options, but I thought it would be useful to put them all in one place for discussion. Your main sorts of sets are All-Out Attacker, Priority Attacker, Boosting Attacker, 3 Attacks + Recovery/Utility, and Lure sets. That's a broad array of different sets perfect for an offensive Pokemon with a good offensive type combination, and some of these may prove much more effective than others.

To that end, I submit one last set.

Moveset Submission

Name: Ability Remover
Move 1: Gastro Acid
Move 2: Bone Rush / Earthquake
Move 3: Fire Spin / Flare Blitz
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Focus Sash / Groundinium-Z / Firium-Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty (+Spe -Def)

• So many of CAP 25f's switchins rely on Levitate for Ground immunity that it seems like a natural choice to have a way to invalidate those abilities. Gastro Acid does this very effectively, and also invalidates 25g's Galvanize (which is probably bad for f specifically but not overall) and 25w's Poison Heal (which will force it out in short order).
• Bone Rush to go for big damage on newly-non-levitating targets or Earthquake with the Groundinium nuke to dispatch them.
• Fire Spin can trap anything once Flash Fire is removed from opponents like Heatran, and the passive damage can build on opponents that otherwise rely on Regenerator, or use Flare Blitz for a powerful damaging option.
• Hidden Power Ice provides good coverage with Ground attacks and is a good go-to coverage option.

So many Pokemon in CAP are Ability reliant that Gastro Acid can be quite effective against them, and why not when you have a STAB that a lot of threats try to answer with Levitate Pokemon?

 

[Mx]

I still don't like Bone Rush at all. Besides the fact that it is an luck based move that has a decent chance of being even more powerful than the banned Bonemerang, I really don't understand why this move is needed. It doesn't really help to break any relevant targets, and just add a chance of breaking walls that we were not supposed to, particularly Pyroak and Arghonaut. This just seems like a case of adding a move just because it theoretically fits with this concept, despite the fact that it doesn't add anything new or interesting, it's just screws with our designated checks.

 

[Deck Knight]

I still don't like Bone Rush at all. Besides the fact that it is an luck based move that has a decent chance of being even more powerful than the banned Bonemerang, I really don't understand why this move is needed. It doesn't really help to break any relevant targets, and just add a chance of breaking walls that we were not supposed to, particularly Pyroak and Arghonaut. This just seems like a case of adding a move just because it theoretically fits with this concept, despite the fact that it doesn't add anything new or interesting, it's just screws with our designated checks.

I have an entire post with calculations demonstrating none of these claims are the case. By your logic any move with some element of RNG is a "luck-based move." Ice Beam can also break or incapacitate a check or counter based on luck.

The fact of the matter is multi-hit moves have a variable range of damage greater than most moves, but if a 2-hit Bone Rush would finish an opponent it is no-longer "luck-based." Given even at its lowest possible value (75 BP) it still falls in the range of competitive moves, and it has a higher likelihood of being superior to Earthquake over successive uses, and claims especially regarding Pyroak are refuted. Bone Rush breaks through Chansey, Earthquake doesn't. Bone Rush pressures against Recovery Stall, Earthquake doesn't. That is two elements that are new or interesting.

Furthermore the chance of being better than Bonemerang is not decent, it is 16.67% The chance of being equal or better is 33.3% (or around Scald burn). The chance of it being worse is 66.67% Likewise its chance of being better than Earthquake is the same 66.7%. It is numerically the middle ground between the two moves.

Multi-Hit moves and their variability is a factor of the game not unlike accuracy and low effect chances. But even the lowest outcome of Bone Rush fits within competitive parameters. Uncompetitiveness is not a valid criticism of Tech Bone Rush.

 

[Mx]

I have an entire post with calculations demonstrating none of these claims are the case. By your logic any move with some element of RNG is a "luck-based move." Ice Beam can also break or incapacitate a check or counter based on luck.

The fact of the matter is multi-hit moves have a variable range of damage greater than most moves, but if a 2-hit Bone Rush would finish an opponent it is no-longer "luck-based." Given even at its lowest possible value (75 BP) it still falls in the range of competitive moves, and it has a higher likelihood of being superior to Earthquake over successive uses, and claims especially regarding Pyroak are refuted. Bone Rush breaks through Chansey, Earthquake doesn't. Bone Rush pressures against Recovery Stall, Earthquake doesn't. That is two elements that are new or interesting.

Furthermore the chance of being better than Bonemerang is not decent, it is 16.67% The chance of being equal or better is 33.3% (or around Scald burn). The chance of it being worse is 66.67% Likewise its chance of being better than Earthquake is the same 66.7%. It is numerically the middle ground between the two moves.

Multi-Hit moves and their variability is a factor of the game not unlike accuracy and low effect chances. But even the lowest outcome of Bone Rush fits within competitive parameters. Uncompetitiveness is not a valid criticism of Tech Bone Rush.

Just because something is a part of the game doesn't mean that we have to accept it, especially if there are already more consistent alternatives. On the examples you mentioned on your earlier post, Bone Rush has a really good chance to break both Arghonaut and Pyroak, two of our best checks, especially if you considering that we already have access to SR to wear them down more easily. Chansey and M-Sableye only walls us on paper, because on practice, both of them can be easily chip down due to their lack of leftovers recovery, so CAP 25f only needs a bit of prior damage for them to be unable to switch into Earthquake. Zapdos already has a hard time switching in because we pressure it with SR and Flare Blitz. Clefable is harder to take down, but has problems tanking Flare Blitz if we are running a boosting item or a Z-Crystal. Suicune and Tapu Fini don't have reliable recovery and neither of them runs max defense in the current meta. Hippowdon, Fini and Alomomola are very niche options, and shouldn't be considered, because if you have to run them in order to check CAP 25f, something already went wrong. Earthquake+Flare Blitz+Stealth Rock is already good enough to break though our intended targets, and Bone Rush fails to add anything good for us.

 

[Gale Wings Golurk]

I have to wonder if we're all considering the limitations of option coverage when we say bone rush is too consistently powerful, never mind bulldoze's unimpressive target list. you have to roll pass the 10% miss rate before rolling for # of hits, which drops the numbers everybody's been using in their bone rush arguments. The probabilities of not whiffing and getting a certain number of hits combine as follows:

2/3 hits: 29%
4/5 hits: 15%
Stronger than EQ: 59%

These are the percentages that factor in misses, and I'm sure there are some who don't want to risk gimping their damage vs earthquake 41% of the time, not to mention that one would have to get this roll twice to get 2hkoes on Argo and pyroak where EQ wouldn't.

2 x (%chance of an attack stronger than earthquake) = 0.3481

All that being said, I believe 59% to be fair if we have more and better ways around 25f's ground stab, given that our C&C is mostly airborne. Earlier in this thread, there was some talk of disallowing flare blitz or not, but that conversation died without conclusion or fanfare. If we did this, it would be easier for flying types, leviators (and 25w) to keep 25f in check like bulky tornadus and rotom while also keeping banded (a set that can't switch off bulldoze and runs EQ and Flare blitz is pretty anti-concept anyway) and Z (140 BP) sets from getting out of control. Bone rushing tomohawk on the roost has been mentioned, but that'll happen less often with flame wheel over FB, and hopefully I've demonstrated how dodgy bone rush gets. Plus, I doubt pressuring an S tier to run a slightly less fantastic ability to roost "more" safely is too damaging. Our C&C doesnt have to be set in stone, and I like the utility of sashbusting. I think the ground power boost is healthy given its inconsistency, and you're not at a complete loss if you hit weaker than EQ.

Edit:fixed spell check and clarified wording

 

[Zetalz]

there was some talk of disallowing flare blitz or not, but that conversation died without conclusion or fanfare

cbrevan posted several movesets for discussion including flare blitz earlier in the thread, and on this same page approved the first moveset of the thread and that has flare blitz listed, so I don't know where you're getting the whole no conclusion thing from.

 

[Roland le preaux]

Gastro Acid seems a bit farfetch'd in terms of viability. The main Leviatate mons that we would want hit, Latios and Strategem, outspeed us and pretty much OHKO us with Life Orb Draco Meteor and Earth Power, respectively. So even if we caught them with on the switch with Gastro Acid (which would be a terrible mid-ground play that would give up a free turn if we mispredict), we still couldn't really capitalize on them losing their Ground immunity.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 339-399 (106.9 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 312-367 (98.4 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Latios-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 304-358 (95.8 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Stratagem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 294-348 (92.7 - 109.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Warren685]

Gastro Acid seems a bit farfetch'd in terms of viability. The main Leviatate mons that we would want hit, Latios and Strategem, outspeed us and pretty much OHKO us with Life Orb Draco Meteor and Earth Power, respectively. So even if we caught them with on the switch with Gastro Acid (which would be a terrible mid-ground play that would give up a free turn if we mispredict), we still couldn't really capitalize on them losing their Ground immunity.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 339-399 (106.9 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 312-367 (98.4 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Latios-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 304-358 (95.8 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Stratagem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 294-348 (92.7 - 109.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

You know Deck posted the set with Focus Sash right so 25f could capitalize on it, also Gastro Acid could catch more then just levitate Pokemons, we could also catch ability dependent counters too like Tomohawk's Prankster, Poison heal 25w and Gliscor, Chansey's Natural Cure, etc

 

[Gale Wings Golurk]

cbrevan posted several movesets for discussion including flare blitz earlier in the thread, and on this same page approved the first moveset of the thread and that has flare blitz listed, so I don't know where you're getting the whole no conclusion thing from.

Ah, I simply missed or forgot those. I haven't checked approved sets in a while since 25f's movepool is coming along more slowly than the other than the other two. I have other reservations with banning bone rush, so I don't think it would be broken with or without FB.

Just so this isn't a post of me saying 'oops' I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on the opportunity costs of acid spray on special sets. It lets us blow through pyroak, and arghonaut barely survives from full health after acid spray.

252 SpA Life Orb Camerupt Earth Power vs. -2 200 HP / 88 SpD Arghonaut: 269-317 (67 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

At the same time, you're an 88 Spatk mon with middling speed vs the rest of the meta, and there's no room for speed control moves. I imagine many would want/need overheat's power to make effective use of acid spray vs defensive switches predicting physical sets, but if a double switch is made, you're suddenly at -2. Faster switchins laugh off acid spray and kill us. So the question is, do we want arghonaut and pyroak to be checks, or counters? If the latter, then we should probably ban acid spray. Personally, I don't think people would like using a mon whose viability is so directly tied to just one factor (the use of two tanks). Just look at talonflame and darkrai. This mon needs versatility and a dynamic list of C&C.