CAP 25 - Part 9 - CAP 25f Moveset Discussion

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Gross Sweep

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I'm not the biggest fan of Gastro Acid as a move on 25F, as I'm not really convinced it would be a good addition. It should also just be looked at as invalidating Levitate since no one should be using Heatran against 25F aside from nuking as it comes in, taking advantage of a scarf set, or the Tran itself is scarfed wanting to catch 25F by surprise (so getting rid of Flash Fire wont have any real effect in the tier). And with that I don't live the idea of trying to circumnavigate Levitate mons. People have been freaking out a bit about 25F's lack of checks and counters, so trying to get rid of the most over talked about checks in M-Lati by way of removing the Ground immunity isn't an amazing idea to me. Roland posted some good calcs showing how Draco M-Lati still breaks through, but I'd still rather not see (Psychic / Ice Beam / EQ / Recover) M-Lati forced out. I just disagree with the type of mons the Gastro Acid set goes after like M-Lati + 25W (two of the few mons who switch into us).

I see 25F as something that will carve a niche very similarly to M-Medi and M-Maw who have an extremely limited number of switchins, but are fairly easy for things like offense to pressure keeping them in check. Meaning I don't really feel like adding the ability to focus on removing more soft defensive checks by way of Gastro Acid.

I'm also not the biggest fan of priority being widely spread on 25F. I do think Accelarock, Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, Sucker Punch, Shadow Sneak, and Mach Punch should be disallowed as they're just to strong/useful to keep 25F healthy in the metagame. I'm pretty much on the same page as Deck Knight when it comes to priority, except I'm ok with Quick Attack making its way onto the set. The reason being is that if someone wants to run a Silk Scarf Fake Out + Quick Attack set they're choosing 2 of: Fire Stab / Ground Stab / HP Ice coverage to go along with it. I frankly see Fake Out being used a lot without QA, and don't really see a strong argument to remove it from our options (Since I don't see QA as a great 4th moveslot option if Fake Out is dropped, which is big for me). Oh also not a fan of Bullet Punch, while I agree with supporters that it does some cool stuff for us I feel to much flexible priority starts to wear on our offensive checks, which is the opposite of what we want. Since right now our lizard is an offensive force with great stab and cool coverage in HP Ice, but the second we start giving it the ability to go fast removing more and more of its offensive checks is when it really starts to get out of hand. The only reason I'm ok with Fake Out is since it can become overly predictable providing some decent chance at counter play + only having a shot at late game cleaning with several sacks in the back. To Summarize I'm pretty much against any decent priority that can serve as a spammable 4th option on a AOA set as I feel it has the potential to improve our match up vs offense to much.
 
Since the beginning of the thread, there's been a lot of discussion about how overwhelming and oppresive 25f's STAB combination can be. I agree, Fire/Ground is an amazing coverage combination, having few to no safe switch-ins. In theory, the STAB combination by itself is enough to give 25f a niche as a strong wallbreaker in the CAP metagame. However, we have to consider these four facts:
  1. We already denied CAP25f potent wallbreaking, setupping and coverage options such as Bonemerang and Flame Charge;
  2. CAP25f's offensive presence is very underwhelming for a wallbreaker with a base of 116 Attack and 88 Special Attack. In a tier with strong wallbreaking choices like Jumbao, Heatran, Greninja-Ash, Mawile-mega and Pajantom, 116 Attack seems really low for a wallbreaker with little to no tools on it's disposal;
  3. CAP25f's bulk is extremely mediocre. 88/67/78 makes it really easy to check and chip away and also severely compromises it's longevity;
  4. CAP25's base speed of 97 is in a decent at best.
With these things in mind, I am a bit worried about how good 25f will be in the metagame. It has subpar stats all around, it's Technician-boosted options are non-existent (only Hidden Power, which is an universal TM, Bulldoze and a few other ones), it's wallbreaking potential doesn't look particularly appealing, etc.
I think we might be overestimating Fire/Ground coverage potential. There's been plenty of pokemon whose STABs combination had little to no counterplay that ended up being extremely underwhelming because of their poor stats distribution/lack of strong movepool. I think it's important that we have as many tools as possible in our disposal for this pokemon.

That being said, I would like to make one last submission for CAP25f.

Moveset Submission

Name: Omniboosting lizard
Move 1: Happy Hour
Move 2: Bulldoze / Earthquake
Move 3: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 4: Shadow Sneak / Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Electric]
Ability: Technician / Blaze
Item: Normalium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Happy Hour provides an omniboosting Z-move for 25f, boosting it's subpar stats to great levels all around.
  • Bulldoze is a 90 BP Ground-type STAB move that also provides speed control, which can allow 25f to provide utility before late-game cleaning with the Z-boosts. Earthquake is a more powerful option to get KOs more easily;
  • Flare Blitz is a 120 BP Fire-type STAB move that provides great damage output. Flame Wheel is a less powerful alternative that gives 25f more longevity;
  • Shadow Sneak provides non-STAB priority. It can be extremely good, breaking Necturna's Substitute, picking up KOs on weakened foes, etc. Hidden Power [Ice] is an option for coverage that hits Landorus-T and Zygarde harder. Hidden Power [Electric] is an option to hit Gyarados and Pelipper.
This set is a potent option, similar to how Z-Celebrate Kerfluffle works, with nearly unresisted coverage moves and decent offensive presence. It would give 25f a great role as a late-game cleaner or early-game breaker.
It isn't as powerful as a Flame Charge option, as some might argue, as it provides a single boost to speed, allowing it to still be revenge killable by scarfers.
Also, this set doesn't mess too much with our threatlist. Here are the calcs:

Versus Clefable
252 Atk Numel Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 160-189 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Numel Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 237-280 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Technician Numel Flame Wheel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 120-142 (30.4 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Technician Numel Flame Wheel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Numel Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 133-157 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- 27.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Numel Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It is able to take hits from a Flare Blitz 25f prior to boosting extremely well. After the boost, not so much. Flame Charge doesn't break through it.
However, keep in mind Clefable can't actually do any significant damage to 25f with it's standard sets, anyway.

Versus Landorus-Therian
0- SpA Technician Numel Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 252-300 (65.9 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 0- SpA Technician Numel Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 376-444 (98.4 - 116.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Versus Latios-mega
252 Atk Technician Numel Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 122-144 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Technician Numel Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 180-214 (59.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0- SpA Technician Numel Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 100-118 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0- SpA Technician Numel Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 148-176 (49.1 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Versus Latias-mega
252 Atk Technician Numel Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 104-124 (28.5 - 34%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Technician Numel Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0- SpA Technician Numel Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 74-88 (20.3 - 24.1%) -- 63.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 0- SpA Technician Numel Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 112-132 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Against the Lati@s, Shadow Sneak can be overwhelming. I'd like to hear you guys' thoughts on it. Hidden Power [Ice] doesn't do as good as Shadow Sneak.

Versus Tomohawk
252 Atk Numel Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 141-166 (34 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Numel Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 210-247 (50.7 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It is able to come in on a boosted 25f's Flare Blitz without Stealth Rock, use Haze and take the next hit, then roost back the health. It checks it greatly.

Versus Pyroak
252 Atk Numel Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 127-150 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Numel Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 189-223 (42.6 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Numel Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 189-223 (42.6 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Pyroak can 1v1 Flare Blitz 25f at +1 if Stealth Rock isn't on the field. I will not be posting Flame Wheel calculations, as it is evident how it wouldn't be able to break through Pyroak, since even Flare Blitz can struggle to do so. If you guys want to see them, I will gladly post them.

Versus Arghonaut
Do I really need to? (unaware lol)

Versus Pajantom
252 Atk Numel Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 201-237 (65 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Numel Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 300-354 (97 - 114.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Pajantom already doesn't take 25f's hits very well. The boost allows it to pick up the KO.

Versus Chansey
Frankly, I have no idea why a (mainly) special wall is supposed to go against a physical wallbreaker. Just remove this from the counters and checks list, please.

Versus Slowking
252 Atk Numel Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Slowking: 180-213 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Numel Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Slowking: 180-213 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Numel Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Slowking: 270-318 (68.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Same as Pajantom.

Versus Pelipper
0- SpA Technician Numel Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pelipper: 188-224 (58.2 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Technician Numel Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pelipper: 188-224 (58.2 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 0- SpA Technician Numel Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pelipper: 284-336 (87.9 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 0- SpA Technician Numel Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pelipper: 284-336 (87.9 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

When using Hidden Power [Electric] (which, in my opinion, doesn't provide as much utility as the other two options for this slot), it can beat Pelipper 1v1.

These were the calculations I thought were the most relevant. If anyone has any questions/wants to see other calcs, I will gladly answer/send them.
It is a potent omniboosting attacker with nearly unresisted coverage options like Kerfluffle, Jirachi and Victini. It still has it's checks and counters depending on the moveset and is a great option for 25f.


Edit: snake_rattler reminded me of Z-Celebrate, that does virtually the same as Happy Hour, but as this is a celebration CAP, it would be a nicer move to give it.
 
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Edit: snake_rattler reminded me of Z-Celebrate, that does virtually the same as Happy Hour, but as this is a celebration CAP, it would be a nicer move to give it.
Cap 25 being a celebration cap I could see all 3 of our starters utilizing it for fun sake, aside from that 25f would benefit from the Omni boost without it over powering out checks. Problems would lie in if Tomohawk is present on the enemy team since it could mean you potentially wasted a good sweeping opportunity, but it does mean that Tomo needs to come in if it hasn't so it might take a Flare blitz to the face and then has to choose to either roost or haze the next turn. (Also that calc is a bit wrong since Tomo doesn't usually leftovers, they use Coba Berries or Rocky Helmet)
 
You know Deck posted the set with Focus Sash right so 25f could capitalize on it, also Gastro Acid could catch more then just levitate Pokemons, we could also catch ability dependent counters too like Tomohawk's Prankster, Poison heal 25w and Gliscor, Chansey's Natural Cure, etc
I know Focus Sash was one of three slashed items and I know Focus Sash is pretty unviable on any non-lead that has zero hazard immunities. I think that Gastro Acid is not at all a feasible way to keep status on Chansey and that the turn you spend using it on Tomohawk or Gliscor you will lose half your health to an uninvested Air Slash or all your health to an Earthquake. Assuming you catch them on the switch (and once again that is a risky play with no mid-ground benefit), you have removed their ability at the cost of giving them a free switch in. Also, why would you want to use Gastro Acid on Gliscor when you are running Technician-boosted HP Ice?

Since the beginning of the thread, there's been a lot of discussion about how overwhelming and oppresive 25f's STAB combination can be. I agree, Fire/Ground is an amazing coverage combination, having few to no safe switch-ins. In theory, the STAB combination by itself is enough to give 25f a niche as a strong wallbreaker in the CAP metagame. However, we have to consider these four facts:
  1. We already denied CAP25f potent wallbreaking, setupping and coverage options such as Bonemerang and Flame Charge;
  2. CAP25f's offensive presence is very underwhelming for a wallbreaker with a base of 116 Attack and 88 Special Attack. In a tier with strong wallbreaking choices like Jumbao, Heatran, Greninja-Ash, Mawile-mega and Pajantom, 116 Attack seems really low for a wallbreaker with little to no tools on it's disposal;
  3. CAP25f's bulk is extremely mediocre. 88/67/78 makes it really easy to check and chip away and also severely compromises it's longevity;
  4. CAP25's base speed of 97 is in a decent at best.
With these things in mind, I am a bit worried about how good 25f will be in the metagame. It has subpar stats all around, it's Technician-boosted options are non-existent (only Hidden Power, which is an universal TM, Bulldoze and a few other ones), it's wallbreaking potential doesn't look particularly appealing, etc.
I think we might be overestimating Fire/Ground coverage potential. There's been plenty of pokemon whose STABs combination had little to no counterplay that ended up being extremely underwhelming because of their poor stats distribution/lack of strong movepool. I think it's important that we have as many tools as possible in our disposal for this pokemon.
I agree with the sentiments expressed in this post. I strongly support Shadow Sneak and I don't think it would be oppressive against Latios, as it cannot prevent it from revenge killing 25f (252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 190-226 (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock). I also think the metagame currently needs more answers to Necturna and a Technician-boosted Shadow Sneak on a Fire-type is a healthy way to realize that goal. Necturna may not be on our switch in list, but that doesn't mean we can't aim to be a decent revenge killer.

If the consensus is ultimately that Shadow Sneak is too powerful, I think Quick Attack could be a decent compromise in terms of power. My only concern is that it is useless against Necturna and it does pitiful damage to Mega Crucibelle and Aurumoth. However, I recognize that Shadow Sneak probably needs more discussion and I have updated my last moveset submission to use Quick Attack instead (with the hopeful goal of getting a another moveset approved sometime soon).
 
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Sorry for the quasi one-liner, but as gen 7 starters each got a signature move, couldn't we give at least CAP25f a signature two-hit Ground move to abuse Technician but not as strong as Bonemerang? A 40 BP two-hit move or so would still pack quite some punch to make it a relevant wallbreaker while not messing with our C+C like Bone Rush does if we get 5 hits on them.
This is a celebration CAP after all.
 
Sorry for the quasi one-liner, but as gen 7 starters each got a signature move, couldn't we give at least CAP25f a signature two-hit Ground move to abuse Technician but not as strong as Bonemerang? A 40 BP two-hit move or so would still pack quite some punch to make it a relevant wallbreaker while not messing with our C+C like Bone Rush does if we get 5 hits on them.
This is a celebration CAP after all.
As much as I wouldn't oppose this idea in concept in execution it would probably go over terribly. I haven't been into CAP for very long but I believe there's a reason they shyed away from creating custom moves and abilities over the years. There could be long debates over what is and what isn't acceptable for custom additions. I mean the fact we're taking a good bit working 3 CAPs at once, adding that into the mix will only take more time and it isn't necessary for the project. Also it's not exactly a tradition that needs to be followed, not every starter set has gained signature moves, hell all of them besides the alola starters have actually lost the exclusivity on their moves (cept decid if you count spirit shackle on pajantom).
 
As much as I wouldn't oppose this idea in concept in execution it would probably go over terribly. I haven't been into CAP for very long but I believe there's a reason they shyed away from creating custom moves and abilities over the years. There could be long debates over what is and what isn't acceptable for custom additions. I mean the fact we're taking a good bit working 3 CAPs at once, adding that into the mix will only take more time and it isn't necessary for the project. Also it's not exactly a tradition that needs to be followed, not every starter set has gained signature moves, hell all of them besides the alola starters have actually lost the exclusivity on their moves (cept decid if you count spirit shackle on pajantom).
The problem is as iFeedback, Jas and myself CAP25f is looking to be the far worse of the trio. It's supposed to be a hard hitter but really doesn't hit that hard, it's not nor speedy enough and its bulk is pretty mediocre. Right now the tier is filled with wallbreakers and hard hitters in general like LOKB, Mawile, Medi, Crucibelle, Hoopa-U and Volkraken for example, Koko, Lele and many others, and, in my opinion, CAP25f is going to struggle a lot to find a relevant niche in the tier over time.
 

Deck Knight

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I wanted to give Frostbiyt 's phazer set some support. There aren't a whole lot of offensive Pokemon that utilize phazing because the most widespread move is Dragon Tail and Dragons attract Fairies like the plague, whereas Circle Throw has really poor distribution. These moves really need STAB or something similar (Tech Boost) to makethe shuffle damage significant. Fighting is a better offensive type than Dragon, and Paj is the only CAP Ghost with much interest in switching into 25f (and it hates Bulldoze Spe drop.) I think it would be an interesting experiment which doesn't mess with C+C any.

Discord has also been discussing Scarf 25f, and right now there really isn't a "4th move." There's dual STAB and then it kind of drops off. To that end:

Moveset Submission

Name: Choice Scarf
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: Gunk Shot
Move 4: Bullet Punch / Will-O-Wisp / Defog / Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Hasty

  • Flare Blitz is high power, high acc STAB damage that a Scarf set needs.
  • Earthquake is reliable high damage, Bulldoze is less powerful but Speed drop can help teammates or invalidate grounded opposing Scarfers.
  • Gunk Shot provides a strong neutral hit and a poison chance that is fairly accurate and doesn't mess with C+C, save the sort of frailer checks that check other sets. This makes it an ideal 3rd move.
  • 4th move is a utility. Bullet Punch for priority, Will-o-Wisp for burns, Defog for a different typed Scarf Kartana kind of purpose, or mixed with HP Ice for coverage.
  • In theory you could use a non-tech boosted utility and run Earthquake with Blaze, but manuevering into the one time Flare Blitz boost probably isn't worth the overall hassle.

My thought process here is that while you can't futureproof and maybe we shouldn't try, if Scarf 25f is going to be contemplated we ought at least flesh out what that set would look like. This is my thought process on it.
 
Apologies to Deck Knight for messing so much with his set. But I think there are a few options that could improve it.

Discord has also been discussing Scarf 25f, and right now there really isn't a "4th move." There's dual STAB and then it kind of drops off. To that end:

Moveset Submission

Name: Choice Scarf
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: Gunk Shot / Healing Wish / Defog
Move 4: Move 4: Bullet Punch / Will-O-Wisp / Defog / Hidden Power Ice / Shadow Sneak / Dragon Tail / Toxic
Ability: Technician / Blaze
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Hasty

  • Flare Blitz is high power, high acc STAB damage that a Scarf set needs.
  • Earthquake is reliable high damage, Bulldoze is less powerful but Speed drop can help teammates or invalidate grounded opposing Scarfers.
  • Gunk Shot provides a strong neutral hit and a poison chance that is fairly accurate and doesn't mess with C+C, save the sort of frailer checks that check other sets. This makes it an ideal 3rd move, while also having a great matchup vs common bulky, potential switch ins such as Tapu Fini and Clefable. Healing Wish provides utility for teammates by completely recovering their HP and removing status conditions. It's a perfect option for a choice-locked pokemon with a free fourth slot. Alternatively, Defog provides hazard removal, which is great on a pokemon that naturally forces switches with it's STABs combination.
  • 4th move is a utility. Bullet Punch for priority, Will-o-Wisp for burns, Defog for a different typed Scarf Kartana kind of purpose, or mixed with HP Ice for coverage. Dragon Tail is a last option to catch Lati@s-mega or other walls on the switch-in and phaze them out. Shadow sneak is for priority, picking up weakened foes, breaking Necturna's Substitute and checking Weak Armor-boosted Aurumoth - since 25f fails to outspeed them after their speed boost even with Choice Scarf. Toxic is one last alternative to cripple walls like Arghonaut that might come in on 25f.

Here are a few explanations about the set:
  1. As I said before, 116 Atk and 88 SpA isn't impressive for a wallbreaker that has little no to tools on it's disposal. Making it hard to effective abuse a Choice Scarf without failing on getting a few KOs;
  2. It's speed also leaves it vulnerable to opposing Choice Scarf users;
  3. 25f's free fourth and, arguably, third moveslots give it potential to run some utility/coverage moves.
This set runs 25f's great STABs combination, which hits nearly everything for neutral or super-effective damage and utility options for it's teammates.
I will leave a few calculations about Dragon Tail and Shadow Sneak, which might seem a bit controversial.

Versus Latios-mega
252 Atk Technician Numel Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 182-216 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Technician Numel Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 122-144 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Numel Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 122-144 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Versus Latias-mega
252 Atk Technician Numel Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Numel Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 104-124 (28.5 - 34%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Numel Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 104-124 (28.5 - 34%) -- 1.4% chance to 3HKO

Bullet Punch and Shadow Sneak comparison (Versus Necturna's Substitute)
252 Atk Technician Numel Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necturna: 61-72 (22.6 - 26.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Numel Bullet Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Necturna: 91-108 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Technician Numel Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necturna: 122-144 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Numel Shadow Sneak vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Necturna: 182-216 (67.6 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Bullet Punch might fail to break Necturna's Substitute prior to a boost, which can be bad if we are locked on this move. I recognize it is a very specific situation, but Shadow Sneak provides better coverage overall in the metagame, in my oppinion, and also versus 25f's threatlist.
While Dragon Tail might seem too strong, but it's actually a risky, prediction-based play that can help only specifically against the matchup Lati@s-mega, dealing better damage to them (it still allows them to check 25f very well), although phazing defensive walls is also pretty good. Alternatively, if Dragon Tail is considered to mess too much with the counters list, Circle Throw is a healthier option to phaze walls.
 
I'd prefer to keep 25f's relevant coverage moves as Technician-focused as possible, in order to realize the concept the best we can. It's not that I'm against Gunk Shot, but it would completely overshadow the Technician-boosted Poison options Clear Smog and Poison Fang. Really I think that other than HP Ice and potentially HP Electric, 25f's best Technician moves will have to be priority. One of the ways we can achieve some pro-concept decision-making for movesets is with multiple, competing priority options. A movepool with both Shadow Sneak to deal with Latios, Necturna, Aurumoth and Bullet Punch to deal with Stratagem, Syclant, and Mega Aerodactyl could create interesting choices for the 25f player. I think each move has just the right amount of coverage to compete with the other without one being substantially better. So I support having both moves.
 
Moveset Submission

Name: Sun Sweeper
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: Solar Blade / Sunny Day
Move 4: HP Ice
Ability: Technician / Blaze
Item: Firium Z / Grassium Z / Groundium Z / Life Orb
  • 25f will be a fantastic partner for Drought Bao as they cover each other's weaknesses well and Bao boosts 25f's fire STAB
  • Solar Blade gives a powerful coverage move that doesn't screw our C&C much as Arghonaut is the only notable check lost on a pretty niche set
  • Firium Z is a powerful nuke under the sun and the other Z moves could be used as alternatives
  • Life Orb can be ran for that bit of extra power for both its physical and special moves
  • Z Sunny Day is a gimmicky option to get both +1 Spe and set up sun but is likely unviable
I think the possibility of a Grassium Z lure set for Argho isn't that big of a deal since 25f would want to run pretty much anything else if it's not in the sun(and maybe even if it's in the sun tbh) since you basically have 3 moveslots once you've used up Grassium Z and 25f would much rather have Rocks in most cases.

-----

A movepool with both Shadow Sneak to deal with Latios, Necturna, Aurumoth and Bullet Punch to deal with Stratagem, Syclant, and Mega Aerodactyl could create interesting choices for the 25f player.
This was discussed on discord, but for those that missed it:
0 SpA Life Orb Technician Numel Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios-Mega: 133-156 (44.1 - 51.8%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Numel Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 159-187 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nearly guaranteed to KO without any chip if you hit latios with HP Ice on the switch.
 

G-Luke

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I'd prefer to keep 25f's relevant coverage moves as Technician-focused as possible, in order to realize the concept the best we can. It's not that I'm against Gunk Shot, but it would completely overshadow the Technician-boosted Poison options Clear Smog and Poison Fang. Really I think that other than HP Ice and potentially HP Electric, 25f's best Technician moves will have to be priority. One of the ways we can achieve some pro-concept decision-making for movesets is with multiple, competing priority options. A movepool with both Shadow Sneak to deal with Latios, Necturna, Aurumoth and Bullet Punch to deal with Stratagem, Syclant, and Mega Aerodactyl could create interesting choices for the 25f player. I think each move has just the right amount of coverage to compete with the other without one being substantially better. So I support having both moves.
Bullet Punch is a cool option and I very much support it the most out of any of the priority moves, but Poison Fang and Clear Smog would be used purely for their utility aspects (Clear Smog's stat boost removal and Poison Fang's 50% Toxic chance.). I very much love and support Gunk Shot tho.
 
Before I go on, I would like to support Bullet Punch instead of Shadow Sneak. Shadow Sneak breaks MLatis, Aurumoth and Necturna. Considering the first two are rather prominent in the meta and as checks to us (at least after Auru sets up), I wouldn’t like to mess with that. Also, Necturna is one of the most dangerous Pokémon in the Metagame and due to this, should imo be preserved as a pressure mon. While BP hurts Syclant, Stratagem and Maero, the latter two are currently irrelevant in the meta.

Moveset Submission

Name: Shuca Offensive Utility
Move 1: Morning Sun
Move 2: Bulldoze
Move 3: Flame Wheel / Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Stealth Rock / Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Shuca Berry
EVs: 192 Atk / 48 Def / 16 SpA / 252 Speed
Nature: Naive
  • Morning Sun provides 25f with much-needed longevity that it would like to have when coming in on neutral attacks that otherwise force it out.
  • Bulldoze is the major offensive move, slowing down foes, increasing breathing room for 25f to recover.
  • Flame Wheel is a reliable Fire-type STAB, but it can be switched for Hidden Power Ice if you wish to both set rocks and nail 4x weak Pokemon like Gliscor and Landorus-Therian.
  • Stealth Rock provides offensive pressure and discourages Flying-types like Tomohawk and Zapdos from switching in, providing even further breathing room. It can be switched for HP Ice if you want both STABs as well as HP Ice.
  • Shuca Berry with this set lets 25f to come in on Defensive Landorus-Therian. While the same cannot be said for Scarf Landorus-Therian, 25f can survive an Earthquake if 25f came in first and retaliate with HP Ice, even if Rocks are up.
  • EVs allow 25f to outspeed as much as possible while OHKOing Defensive Landorus-Therian with HP Ice and living Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian's Earthquake after Rocks if Shuca Berry has yet to be activated.
  • Naive nature is chosen to ensure the OHKO of HP Ice against Defensive Landorus-Therian.
 

G-Luke

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Before I go on, I would like to support Bullet Punch instead of Shadow Sneak. Shadow Sneak breaks MLatis, Aurumoth and Necturna. Considering the first two are rather prominent in the meta and as checks to us (at least after Auru sets up), I wouldn’t like to mess with that. Also, Necturna is one of the most dangerous Pokémon in the Metagame and due to this, should imo be preserved as a pressure mon. While BP hurts Syclant, Stratagem and Maero, the latter two are currently irrelevant in the meta.

Moveset Submission

Name: Shuca Offensive Utility
Move 1: Morning Sun
Move 2: Bulldoze
Move 3: Flame Wheel / Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Stealth Rock / Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Shuca Berry
EVs: 192 Atk / 48 Def / 16 SpA / 252 Speed
Nature: Naive
  • Morning Sun provides 25f with much-needed longevity that it would like to have when coming in on neutral attacks that otherwise force it out.
  • Bulldoze is the major offensive move, slowing down foes, increasing breathing room for 25f to recover.
  • Flame Wheel is a reliable Fire-type STAB, but it can be switched for Hidden Power Ice if you wish to both set rocks and nail 4x weak Pokemon like Gliscor and Landorus-Therian.
  • Stealth Rock provides offensive pressure and discourages Flying-types like Tomohawk and Zapdos from switching in, providing even further breathing room. It can be switched for HP Ice if you want both STABs as well as HP Ice.
  • Shuca Berry with this set lets 25f to come in on Defensive Landorus-Therian. While the same cannot be said for Scarf Landorus-Therian, 25f can survive an Earthquake if 25f came in first and retaliate with HP Ice, even if Rocks are up.
  • EVs allow 25f to outspeed as much as possible while OHKOing Defensive Landorus-Therian with HP Ice and living Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian's Earthquake after Rocks if Shuca Berry has yet to be activated.
  • Naive nature is chosen to ensure the OHKO of HP Ice against Defensive Landorus-Therian.

I agree with Shadow Sneak over Bullet Punch, but just to preserve MLati@s. Aurumoth isnt a check to us in the slightest degree (idk where that came from) and pressuring one of THE best set up sweepers in the meta would actually be very welcome.
 

cbrevan

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Discussion has died down a ton over the last couple of days, so this will be our 48 hour warning before we wrap this thread up. 48 hours was chosen as the cut off time to allow people to get responses into all three threads if they desire. Use this time to make any final suggestions, may they be edits of existing movesets, comments on approved movesets, or new movesets. Do keep in mind that discussion is closing, so focus on discussing what has already brought up since we most likely not have the time to look at new moves/movesets in depth.

25f as of now is primarily centered around its Fire- and Ground-type STAB moves and Technician boosted Hidden Power Ice. Flame Charge was banned earlier for allowing 25f to put undue pressure on the offense matchup, and Bonemerang was banned for allowing 25f to break through most grounded Pokemon. A number of movesets are exploring possible fourth moveslots and coverage options. Utility moves such as recovery, status, Stealth Rocks, and Defog have also been brought up.

Last time I posted we also decided to disallow competitively viable Rock-type coverage, which was defined as any move with an effective BP of 75 or greater. I plan to amend this to include both Accelerock and Smack Down. Accelerock has been brought up and objected to on the basis of putting too much pressure on potential checks such as Mega Aerodactyl and Pokemon such as Tornadus-t that could switch into 25f's ground moves. Smack Down, while being undiscussed, is being disallowed as a protective measure to ensure that Pokemon such as Mega Latis and Tomohawk can remain as checks. No decision is being made on Gravity right now due to lack of discussion and its inability to serve as a coverage move, unlike Smack Down.

Picking up from Accelerock, I've also decided to disallow certain priority moves that are generically good (Extreme Speed, Sucker Punch) or have a typing that impacts our potential checks (Ice Shard, Shadow Sneak). Sucker Punch body bags Mega Latis and Extreme Speed is unneccessary for how good it is against both the Mega Latis, Ash Greninja, and most other fast Pokemon. Both Ice Shard and Shadow Sneak help in the Mega Latis matchups.

Moving onto moveset comments:
Name: All Out Attacker
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: HP Ice / HP Electric
Move 4: Bullet Punch / Force Palm / Poison Fang
Ability: Technician
Item: Z Crystal / Expert Belt / Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty (+Spe -Def)
This set is approved, basic all out attacking set with stabs and HP coverage option. Bullet Punch does impact Syclant, Mega Crucibelle, Stratagem, and Mega Aerodactyl matchups, but poor coverage of Ground/Fire/Steel has lead several posters to support the move. Force Palm helps hit Colossoil harder and Stratagem on the switch while potentially spreading Paralysis. Poison Fang is an alternative to Toxic that avoids Taunt.

Name: Phazer
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: Circle Throw
Move 4: Stealth Rock / Spikes / Toxic Spikes / Moonlight
Ability: Technician
Item: Shuca Berry / Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly (+Spe -SpA)
This set is unapproved but I like the idea of it. Circle Throw is an interesting choice to punish switch ins while not threating our check list. Spikes and Toxic Spikes are why this set are unapproved, I don't believe either move has seen sufficient discussion for me to approve them. Since Stealth Rock was approved, I'm unwary of simply allowing 25f access to nearly every form of entry hazard. Further discussion on Spikes and Toxic Spikes would be needed, otherwise I'll remove them and approve the set without them.

Name: Ability Remover
Move 1: Gastro Acid
Move 2: Bone Rush / Earthquake
Move 3: Fire Spin / Flare Blitz
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Focus Sash / Groundinium-Z / Firium-Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty (+Spe -Def)
I'll be honest, I don't see 25f ever running a viable Fire Spin set. Heatran was cited as an example of a Pokemon who would suffer from Gastro Acid + Fire Spin, but why would we ever not KO it with our Ground STAB?

Gastro Acid is an interesting option, it mainly targets Levitators such as Rotom-w and Mega Latis. Seeing how we want to have Mega Latis check us, I think it would be prudent to disallow Gasto Acid. The move is unnecessary for the CAP and the proposed set doesn't seem viable, which leads me to believe it would be best to play it conservative and disallow it.

Name: Choice Scarf
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: Gunk Shot
Move 4: Bullet Punch / Will-O-Wisp / Defog / Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Hasty
This set is unapproved. I'm unsure of Gunk Shot since I've seen some posts throw support for it but no one has explained why we want to give 25f a way to pressure Pryoak while also allowing 25f a high BP neutral option against Pokemon such as Mega Latis and Pelipper. I'm not ruling it out as of now, but I'd just like to see a better explanation for it.

Will-O-Wisp I'm undecided on, on one hand we're a Fire-type that has STAB moves that have a chance to Burn, on the other hand it does make some switchins noticeably worse, such as Gyarados.

Name: SpDef
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Will-O-Wisp
Move 3: Morning Sun
Move 4: Stealth Rocks / Taunt / Earthquake
Ability: Blaze
Item: Leftovers / Iapapa berry
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Unapproved for now. Main move in question is Taunt. I recognize that the move would be good on 25f, for example you could keep Clefable from getting Stealth Rock up while also beating it in a damage race. It also messes with Tomohawk and a couple of our defensive answers. I'd like to see some more discussion on Taunt in regards to what it impacts and if we need it.
 
Name: SpDef
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Will-O-Wisp
Move 3: Morning Sun
Move 4: Stealth Rocks / Taunt / Earthquake
Ability: Blaze
Item: Leftovers / Iapapa berry
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Unapproved for now. Main move in question is Taunt. I recognize that the move would be good on 25f, for example you could keep Clefable from getting Stealth Rock up while also beating it in a damage race. It also messes with Tomohawk and a couple of our defensive answers. I'd like to see some more discussion on Taunt in regards to what it impacts and if we need it.
I personally don't feel like Taunt would punish Tomo too much. In a 1vs1 setting even versus an offensive set it'll be able to Roost regardless thanks to Prankster's priority. Earth Power on the predicted Taunt punishes us heavily too since every bit of damage on 25f is important considering Life Orb and Flare Blitz recoil. HP Ice doesn't do too too much either.
Our other defensive checks are Pyroak, Gastro (Phys def) and Argho.
Argho takes a good chunk from Life Orb Earthquake but it's able to revenge kill us pretty easily with Aqua Jet at any percentage we are at. It does alleviate the Pyroak match up but even a lo boosted eq does very little to it and it's able to 1vs1 us with somewhat ease or chip us consistently, which is pretty important considering that we are chipping ourself considerably when clicking Flare Blitz on more meaty targets..
In general I think it'd be a good fourth move both for a stallbreaker and a more defensive inclined set that abused 25f's usable typing focused more on supporting its allies rather than straight up wallbreaking. Wisp is pretty cool in this sense as it cripples a lot of offensive answers like Gyara, Paj, Lando, Pert and Argho. Overall I think Taunt to be necessary to cement its role as wallbreaker and its useful to not be a total deadweight in some match ups. I can see a set with Taunt + SR/Spikes/TSpikes + STABs too to keep the hazards up vs stuff like Zap or Mew.
I would like to see discussed Gravity too, as well as TSpikes and Spikes. I think they would be good moves on this mon for the same reason as Stealth Rock, as our typing is very good offensively (and some times defensively) and creates a lot of switches that eases 25f to set up spikes. On the other hand, our bulk is so little that a wrong prediction would lead us to be either significanlty dented, so much that we wouldn't be able to click Flare Blitz after, or stright up dead.
Gravity on the other hand is a replacement to Smack Down that would ease prediction against teams that plan to switch around to wear us down without messing with our c+c.
 
I personally don't feel like Taunt would punish Tomo too much. In a 1vs1 setting even versus an offensive set it'll be able to Roost regardless thanks to Prankster's priority. Earth Power on the predicted Taunt punishes us heavily too since every bit of damage on 25f is important considering Life Orb and Flare Blitz recoil. HP Ice doesn't do too too much either.
Our other defensive checks are Pyroak, Gastro (Phys def) and Argho.
Argho takes a good chunk from Life Orb Earthquake but it's able to revenge kill us pretty easily with Aqua Jet at any percentage we are at. It does alleviate the Pyroak match up but even a lo boosted eq does very little to it and it's able to 1vs1 us with somewhat ease or chip us consistently, which is pretty important considering that we are chipping ourself considerably when clicking Flare Blitz on more meaty targets..
In general I think it'd be a good fourth move both for a stallbreaker and a more defensive inclined set that abused 25f's usable typing focused more on supporting its allies rather than straight up wallbreaking. Wisp is pretty cool in this sense as it cripples a lot of offensive answers like Gyara, Paj, Lando, Pert and Argho. Overall I think Taunt to be necessary to cement its role as wallbreaker and its useful to not be a total deadweight in some match ups. I can see a set with Taunt + SR/Spikes/TSpikes + STABs too to keep the hazards up vs stuff like Zap or Mew.
I would like to see discussed Gravity too, as well as TSpikes and Spikes. I think they would be good moves on this mon for the same reason as Stealth Rock, as our typing is very good offensively (and some times defensively) and creates a lot of switches that eases 25f to set up spikes. On the other hand, our bulk is so little that a wrong prediction would lead us to be either significanlty dented, so much that we wouldn't be able to click Flare Blitz after, or stright up dead.
Gravity on the other hand is a replacement to Smack Down that would ease prediction against teams that plan to switch around to wear us down without messing with our c+c.
You do realize Earth Power Tomo and Aqua Jet Argh is irrelevant in the meta right now.
 

G-Luke

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.

Name: SpDef
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Will-O-Wisp
Move 3: Morning Sun
Move 4: Stealth Rocks / Taunt / Earthquake
Ability: Blaze
Item: Leftovers / Iapapa berry
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Unapproved for now. Main move in question is Taunt. I recognize that the move would be good on 25f, for example you could keep Clefable from getting Stealth Rock up while also beating it in a damage race. It also messes with Tomohawk and a couple of our defensive answers. I'd like to see some more discussion on Taunt in regards to what it impacts and if we need it.
Taunt really just allows us to stallbreak more efficiently, and truly does not mess up our matchups with our C&C in a massive way.

Clefable is a literal paradox of sorts, and has always been a questionable match up against us. For the most part, it does nothing to us, since it is a switchin for us, and we dont hit hard enough to consistently break it, since its simultaneously a c&c (dumb stuff tbh). What Clef can do is use the uncommon CM set and set up on us. CAPf, has no such tool to beat Clef. I believe Taunt is that key. Thanks to the weird placement of Clef, we are not really breaking rules here.

Tomohawk is weirder, but thats due to how Taunt works. If Tomo uses a utility move before getting Taunted, it gets taunted for four turns. If not it gets taunted for three. That set suggested, however, just can't beat standard Tomohawk

0 Atk Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 115-136 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- 83.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 111-132 (29.2 - 34.7%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Taunt will most likely wear off and Tomo can Roost before death. Offensive variants might have a better chance of beating it, but recoil + Rocky Helmet + potential LO recoil racks up pretty high damage, especially since Tomohawk has a notably higher HP stat in comparison.
 

Gross Sweep

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Not a lot to add, but I'd like to touch on the utility options of Wisp, Spikes, and Tspikes.

I'm ok with allowing Wisp, you mention Gyarados, which while I agree it neuters overall it does however still check 25F easily:

252 Atk burned Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 354-416 (111.6 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker burned Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Camerupt: 414-488 (130.5 - 153.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If anything 25F being able to throw up rocks will be more troublesome to a non mega evolved gyara since it's gonna be taking 25% each time it comes in. I'm going to support Wisp since I feel the sacrifice of an offensive move slot for a status move like wisp isn't to concerning when it comes to what 25F is able to take down.

However, I am strongly against Spikes and Tspikes, the stacking ability of spikes + the potential to poison 4 mons over the haul of a game with one turns work outstretches what I'd like to see 25F able to do. (I say 4 since you have at least 1 ground immunity and a steel on like every team). Also the fact 25F does force switches makes me uncomfortable with it being able to throw up spikes on that forced switch in a similar fashion to Greninja. All in all I just don't love giving this thing a smorgasbord of hazards, feel like it's a dimension of options 25F does not need. Sorry this is so unclear having a hard time wording it, might come back and fix later.

Finally, I have no complaints with Taunt. Oh also Force Palm sounds dumb broken, and I cannot wait to abuse that.
 
So there's a few moves I really want to go over, plus a new set that I just want to hazard as we're winding down:

Moveset Submission:

Name: Agility + 3 Attacks Cleaner
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 3: Bone Rush / Earthquake
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Electric
Ability: Technician
Item: Z Crystal / Expert Belt / Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty (+Spe, -Def)
  • Agility allows 25f a manual option to increase its speed two stages, allowing it to assert much more offensive pressure.
  • Flare Blitz for a very powerful STAB and Firium platform that causes recoil. Flame Wheel is weaker but doesn't have any recoil.
  • Bone Rush or Earthquake as a solid Ground STAB.
  • Hidden Power Ice for maximum three move coverage, Hidden Power Electric for a cleat KO on Scarf Pelipper and other Electric-weak Scarfers slower than +2Spe 25f.

Given the huge discussion on Flame Charge, speed has always been a contention point on 25f. However, I think Agility is a balanced option for several reasons. The first is 25f's massive weakness to Water priority (and strong neutral priority in general) which makes the speed setup irrelevant. Additional speed also doesn't help 25f against walls which are already slower than it. The reason Flame Charge caused such controversy is you could nab a KO and boost speed simultaneously. Here your options are gain speed or get a KO, and Bulldoze on many sets fulfills the same Flame Charge-esque function of lowering incoming speed and doing damage. What the Agility set does let 25f do is become a reliable cleaner as long as you can get the speed boost up late game. It also serves as a 25f-specific countermeasure to Webs and Tailwind teams. Agility vs Rock Polish is a flavor discussion, assume it means either.

On Gunk Shot: I think Pyroak is already effectively pressured given it doesn't actually resist either of our STABs and is very susceptible to Toxic. It also doesn't hit us effectively with any of its attacks except for Earth Power, seeing as we resist Lava Plume and can't be burned, and Giga Drain can stall us out but can't actually outdamage Morning Sun healing which has been discussed on other sets. Basically, Pyroak only checks us if it has Earth Power (Shuca sets lack enough power to overwhelm it directly, although Bulk Up + Shuca 2HKOs at +1 with Flare Blitz after Rocks). It can Leech Seed to stall us out and will do so more commonly, but it's not particularly effective against 25f. Pyroak is already pressured by sets like Bulk Up, the approved set with Toxic and SR, and will be pressured by any set with recovery.

Which leads to interactions with Latis on this set: Here's the calcs for Gunk Shot, Hidden Power Ice, and Return with Scarf:
Gunk Shot:
Latias (OU Mega Calm Mind) Gunk Shot 35.9 - 42.5% guaranteed 3HKO
Latias (OU Offensive Support) Gunk Shot 43.5 - 51.4% 8.2% chance to 2HKO
Latias-Mega (OU Mega Calm Mind) Gunk Shot 28.2 - 33.5% 0.1% chance to 3HKO
Latios (OU Choice Scarf) Gunk Shot 48.5 - 57.1% 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Latios (OU Choice Specs) Gunk Shot 48.5 - 57.1% 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Latios (OU Mega Mixed Attacker) Gunk Shot 48.5 - 57.1% 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Latios (OU Offensive) Gunk Shot 48.5 - 57.1% 91.8% chance to 2HKO
Latios-Mega (OU Mega Mixed Attacker) Gunk Shot 40.1 - 47.5% guaranteed 3HKO

Hidden Power Ice:
Latias (OU Mega Calm Mind) HP Ice 37.3 - 43.9% guaranteed 3HKO
Latias (OU Offensive Support) HP Ice 45.1 - 53.1% 28.1% chance to 2HKO
Latias-Mega (OU Mega Calm Mind) HP Ice 32.9 - 39% 99.8% chance to 3HKO
Latios (OU Choice Scarf) HP Ice 51.8 - 61.1% guaranteed 2HKO
Latios (OU Choice Specs) HP Ice 51.8 - 61.1% guaranteed 2HKO
Latios (OU Mega Mixed Attacker) HP Ice 57.8 - 68.4% guaranteed 2HKO
Latios (OU Offensive) HP Ice 51.8 - 61.1% guaranteed 2HKO
Latios-Mega (OU Mega Mixed Attacker) HP Ice 53.8 - 63.7% guaranteed 2HKO

Return:
Latias (OU Mega Calm Mind) Return 30.7 - 36.2% 55.3% chance to 3HKO
Latias (OU Offensive Support) Return 37.2 - 43.8% guaranteed 3HKO
Latias-Mega (OU Mega Calm Mind) Return 24.1 - 28.5% 97.9% chance to 4HKO
Latios (OU Choice Scarf) Return 41.1 - 48.5% guaranteed 3HKO
Latios (OU Choice Specs) Return 41.1 - 48.5% guaranteed 3HKO
Latios (OU Mega Mixed Attacker) Return 41.1 - 48.5% guaranteed 3HKO
Latios (OU Offensive) Return 41.1 - 48.5% guaranteed 3HKO
Latios-Mega (OU Mega Mixed Attacker) Return 34.2 - 40.5% guaranteed 3HKO


Compared with HP Ice, Gunk Shot does less damage and has less accuracy but has the Poison chance going for it. It's a roughly equivalent move. Return is wholly inadequate as a 4th move, and Double-Edge would hit the same numbers as Gunk Shot but you would destroy yourself with recoil. So why Gunk Shot? Because it replicates offensive pressure on several Pokemon threatened by STABs, but is otherwise offensively ineffective.

Ex: Scarf 25g vs Tapu Koko: Earthquake and Gunk Shot both OHKO, but Gunk Shot lets you hedge against a switch.
Ex. Scarf 25f vs Jumbao: Flare Blitz and Gunk Shot both OHKO, but Gunk Shot lets you hedge against a switch.

Crucially, Gunk Shot is balanced because when Choice-locked, it locks you into a fairly bad offensive type with an immunity. Predict Gunk Shot wrong and any Steel type comes in and either sets up hazards (Ferrothorn) or threatens you out (Heateran, Kartana). Ground types and Rock types come in without much concern. When it isn't Choice-locked, it struggles to find a place on a set because as demonstrated, even its strongest neutral hits are weaker than Hidden Power on a relevant target. It's almost exclusively a move you'd use on Choice Scarf because of its hedging properties. It doesn't even hit checks for the most damage, it's just the move you use when it would be effective against the existing target and passable against potential switchins. I support Gunk Shot.

On Hazards: Stealth Rock has already been approved, so let's just take that as done. 25f is a pretty solid offensive mon already, I don't like the idea of trying to speed multiple turns Spikestacking. I Oppose Spikes / Toxic Spikes.

On Taunt: Taunt is really interesting as a hedge against defensive switchins and set-up sweeping checks. It disables their recovery and support (or alternatively boosting) options at the cost of a moveslot. It hurts Tomohawk most on the switch, but we don't have a really effective way to break Tomohawk. Even a set as clunky as Flare Blitz/Bulk Up/Taunt/Morning Sun which could overwhelm Tomohawk in theory is just not a good set in general. It's probably more threatening against Pyroak because it shuts down all its support options and if it doesn't run Earth Power it's losing against 25f in the long run. Taunt is good to preserve the status of the game, but I don't think it gives 25f an option to overwhelm in general. Even against Ferrothorn, Clefable, or Chansey you're almost always better off attacking than using Taunt if they're already in front of you. I Support Taunt.

On Wisp: Wisp is useful for all the usual reasons, and its drawback is the same, it takes up a slot and doesn't do damage. Wisp has never broken anything, it's not going to negatively impact CAP. Arguably our checks hate Toxic more than Wisp, even Gyarados. I Support Will-O-Wisp.
 
What are you guys thoughts on Thunder Wave, Sub, Double Kick over Force Palm and about a possible Z Giga Impact Blaze set to break through a lot of out defensive checks even with just a +1, besides Argho?
 
I would really like 25f to have more than one priority option for moveset diversity, especially given that priority is one of the few pro-concept options that has been deemed healthy for the metagame. Since Shadow Sneak has been disallowed, I think the best competition for Bullet Punch is Fake Out. It can finish off mons like Ash Greninja and it gets good chip against bulky mons like AV Tangrowth, helping ensure a KO from Life Orb Flare Blitz. Therefore I would like to submit a fairly simple edit to Deck Knight's Priority Attacker set, to see if it can be approved. I eliminated Feint and Bone Rush, which I feel may need more discussion, and added HP Ice because I think it may be invaluable.

Moveset Submission:

Name: Priority Attacker
Move 1: Fake Out / Bullet Punch
Move 2: Hidden Power Ice / Bullet Punch
Move 3: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 4: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive / Jolly
 
Last edited:

Gross Sweep

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Given the huge discussion on Flame Charge, speed has always been a contention point on 25f. However, I think Agility is a balanced option for several reasons. The first is 25f's massive weakness to Water priority (and strong neutral priority in general) which makes the speed setup irrelevant. Additional speed also doesn't help 25f against walls which are already slower than it. The reason Flame Charge caused such controversy is you could nab a KO and boost speed simultaneously. Here your options are gain speed or get a KO, and Bulldoze on many sets fulfills the same Flame Charge-esque function of lowering incoming speed and doing damage. What the Agility set does let 25f do is become a reliable cleaner as long as you can get the speed boost up late game. It also serves as a 25f-specific countermeasure to Webs and Tailwind teams. Agility vs Rock Polish is a flavor discussion, assume it means either.
I've got a few things to say about this, so I guess I'll just start from the top and work my way down. Firstly I really don't see strong water priority existing in the meta as a truly passable reason to allow Agility. Greninja, Crawdaunt (who you never really see), Arghonaut (who doesn't like to run Aqua Jet), and 25W (yet to be seen if Aqua Jet becomes standard) are the abusers, and aside from Greninja I'm not overly worried about running into water priority from any of these games if I'm 25F. Just not a big enough check to cancel out the speed boost. I'll give you the point about already out speeding slower walls, but that's just a given. 25F has a solid match up against slower mons as it is a breaker, the worrying fact about a speed increase is improving the match up vs offense. Everyone knows 25F is going to have a good match up vs fat, but the issue comes with giving it the ability to suddenly tear through offense. Also with regards to Flame Rush people had a big issue with the lasting effects of speed boosts along with the chip damage of Flame Charge. No one was really expecting Flame Charge to get a ton of KOs, that's why it was run in combination with Flare Blitz on a lot of sets. The fear grew from faster mons like M-Crucibelle no longer being able to revenge 25F after it got off the Flame Charge. The reason Bulldoze is different is because it effects one opponent, and then something comes in at full speed and powers through 25F. However, with Agility or Flame Rush 25F boosts its own speed and then proceeds to power through the opposition with its increase in speed. The fear was 25F becoming a cleaner with a reliable turn of set up; not 25F killing a mon + getting a boost since no one was really counting on Flame Charge to be a reliable way to kill anything - and Agility helps make that fear real. To summarize: I'm against Agility.
 
Moveset Submission:

Name: Special priority
Move 1: Incinerate / Fire Blast
Move 2: Mud Shot
Move 3: Vacuum Wave
Move 4: Acid Spray / Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Nature: Modest (+SpA, -Atk)
  • Incinerate/Fire Blast and Mud Shot Flare Blitz are powerful special STAB options. Fire Blast can be taken for raw damage. Incinerate can be taken for accuracy and the potential to scout and eliminate berries.
  • Technician boosted special priority is an option uniquely useful to 25f (yes strategem gets it but doesn’t use out of it) physically bulky opponents thinking they’re safe from a bullet punch or shadow sneak are vulnerable to an unexpected special move instead
  • Acid Spray is great for catching switch outs and softening incoming pokemon, giving 25f the oppurtunity to inflict more potent damage on them with fire blast or beat them out with the priority from vaccuum wave.
  • Hidden Power Ice is for standard coverage
Although physical options for 25f work better in general, I think some of his special options are worth exploring. Acid spray and incinerate are nice utility moves, supported further by the coverage possibilities of hidden power and priority in the form of vacuum wave. Switching out can become risky against 25f, being under threat of two debuffing moves and a berry remover. Using both acid spray, vaccuum wave and both of it’s STAB moves do give it a bad case of 4mss, limiting it’s ability to run HP Ice. This set can be categorized as a mix-up set to cach an opponent off guard, as most of the time players are going to be opting for pure physical or mixed sets. These special moves are probably better in mixed sets rather than one that commits purely to special attack, this set primarily exists to explore the use of special technician boosted options for 25f.
 
I'll just give a quick opinion on some of the moves that have been discussed until now.

Hazards: Stealth Rock has already been approved. I like also like the idea of Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Being able to choose from a wide variety of hazards to setup is a gift given to few pokemon like Greninja and would give 25f's great utility options for the last moveslot. I'm in favor of Spikes and Toxic Spikes.

Gunk Shot: I'll be quick with this one - I think it is a fantastic neutral hit that doesn't mess much with our threatlist besides Clefable and Pyroak, so I'm in favor of Gunk Shot.

Taunt: I think it is an interesting option to deal better with walls like not so common Calm Mind Clefable, disallowing it to setup Calm Mind, and Arghonaut, by disallowing it to setup free layers of Spikes. I'm in favor of Taunt.

Will-o-Wisp: again, an interesting utility option for 25f. Many Fire-type pokemon get it, so I don't see any reason to disallow this move. It does punish a few countes like Gyarados by crippling them with a burn, but overall it isn't problematic. I'm in favor of Will-o-Wisp.

Morning Sun: the option I'm most excited about. Being able to give 25f utility and longevity. I think it synergizes brilliantly with 25f's movepool options like Flare Blitz - by compensating the recoil - and Stealth Rock - by giving it more longevity. I'm 100% in favor of Morning Sun.

I'd also like to advocate for Celebrate: given that this is a celebration CAP, I think it would be nice to give all three of them access to Celebrate. 25f, in particular, can abuse a Z-Celebrate set to it's full potential. I already explained my thoughts on this set before, so I won't be extending the conversation about it. But I'm in favor of Celebrate.

Priority: after some discussion on Discord, I realized that Shadow Sneak is too strong for this pokemon. Being able to 2HKO one of our best counters (Mega Latios) with ease. Fake Out, Quick Attack and Bullet Punch, however, are solid picks that don't interfere with our counters and checks list that much. I'm against Shadow Sneak and in favor of Fake Out, Quick Attack and Bullet Punch.

Defog: again, a great utility option for 25f. Being able to reliably get rid of hazards without worrying about the plethora of spin blockers in the tier is amazing. In conjunction with Morning Sun or Taunt, this can be a fantastic option for a utility set. I'm totally in favor of Defog.

Phazing: not much to say, just that I'm in favor of Circle Throw and Dragon Tail, although the later might be controversial to some of you guys.

Agility: I'm not sure about this one. I'll have to think a bit more about it. For now, I'm against it.
 
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