CAP 25 - Part 9 - CAP 25f Moveset Discussion

[Quanyails]

NEW: This is a Celebration CAP, meaning that we are going out of our way to break some rules. We'll be creating a set of three Pokemon this time around, a set of Fire, Water, and Grass-type starters! You can read exactly which rules we'll be breaking here and the logic behind Celebration CAPs here. Give these a read-through to get some context.

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CAP 25 Grass-type moveset discussion: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-25-part-9-cap-25g-moveset-discussion.3641726/
CAP 25 Fire-type moveset discussion: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-25-part-9-cap-25f-moveset-discussion.3641727/
CAP 25 Water-type moveset discussion: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-25-part-9-cap-25w-moveset-discussion.3641728/

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In this stage, we are determining the required and disallowed competitive moves by creating a list of approved movesets. The movesets will be decided based on the competitive needs and limitations of this project. We are not submitting full movepools at this time. There will be a later stage for movepool submissions (level-up sets, egg moves, etc) once the required and disallowed moves have been determined via the accepted movesets.

Moveset Discussion Rules & Guidelines

There should be four kinds of posts in the thread:

• Moveset Submissions
• Moveset Edits/Option Submissions
• General Commentary
• Section Leader/Topic Leader Announcements/Updates

This means that no moves can be suggested or commented on unless they are part of a full competitive moveset submission or suggested as a additional option for one or more previous movesets. Any recommendations to disallow certain moves should only be in reference to moves contained in previously posted movesets.

The general flow of this thread should go like this:

1. People post moveset submissions in a prescribed format (see below)
2. Other people suggest to add/remove moves or other options to previously posted movesets (see below)
3. Other people propose edits to the descriptive information with previously posted movesets
4. Other people comment on the competitive pros and cons of previously posted movesets, additions/removals, and proposed edits
5. Continuously over the course of the thread, the movepool leader updates the first post in the thread with the "currently accepted" movesets and other information related to the status of the intelligent community consensus (see below)

By the end of this discussion thread, we should have the following outputs:

• The top post in the thread (maintained by the Movepool Leader) will contain a list of all edited, approved movesets
• The top post will list controversial movesets and/or optional moves that need to be voted on by the community

Prohibited Moves:
Legendary Signature Moves are banned from discussion unless one (or more) is specifically allowed by the combined consensus of the TL and the Movepool Leader. The following moves are considered Legendary Signatures:

Legendary Signature Moves

Aeroblast
Blue Flare
Bolt Strike
Crush Grip
Core Enforcer
Dark Void
Diamond Storm
Doom Desire
Dragon Ascent
Fleur Cannon
Freeze Shock
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Geomancy
Glaciate
Heart Swap
Hyperspace Fury
Hyperspace Hole
Ice Burn
Judgement
Land's Wrath
Light of Ruin
Lunar Dance
Luster Purge
Magma Storm
Mist Ball
Moongeist Beam
Oblivion Wing
Origin Pulse
Photon Geyser
Plasma Fists
Precipice Blades
Prismatic Laser
Psycho Boost
Psystrike
Relic Song
Roar of Time
Sacred Fire
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Force
Spacial Rend
Spectral Thief
Steam Eruption
Sunsteel Strike
Techno Blast
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
V-Create

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Moveset Submissions

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Earth Power / Energy Ball
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest / Timid

• Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
• Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut very hard.
• Ice Beam complements Thunderbolt very well, allowing it to hit Ground-types like Zygarde.
• Earth Power lets CAP X hit Heatran and Mollux very hard, while Energy Ball lets it hit Gastrodon and Mega Swampert harder.
• Sheer Force powers up CAP X's main moves.
• Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
• Modest is preferred for more power, but Timid can be used to outspeed base 81s like Gyarados and Necturna before boosting.

Copyable template

[B]Moveset Submission[/B]

Name:
Move 1:
Move 2:
Move 3:
Move 4:
Ability: (optional)
Item: (optional)
EVs: (optional)
Nature: (optional)
[LIST]
[*]
[*]
[*]
[/LIST]

Please keep to the above format so the movepool leader can easily see which posts in the thread are proposing new moveset submissions, and can easily locate the information when updating the top post in the thread.

Ability, Item, EVs, and Nature are optional. All that is required are four moves, a name, and some descriptive information (in bullet form).

Any suggested moveset posted without any reasonable description will be deleted by the moderators. People should not spam movesets, post without checking the movesets already submitted, or post movesets without thinking them through.

Although we are not posting movesets in the full C&C analysis format, you should generally adhere to C&C standards where it makes sense. While there will not be excessively strict moderation on this, use common sense. Don't get too slash-happy with moves, no stupid names, use proper spelling and grammar, etc. These movesets will be put on the CAP subsite immediately at the end of the CAP for the playtest.

If you are unsure of the optimal ability, item, EVs, or nature -- you can leave it out and it can be edited in later over the course of the thread. By the end of the thread, every accepted moveset should be filled in completely. That doesn't mean we need to be 100% sure of every aspect of the moveset. It's fine if we go with our best guess and leave it to the playtest to optimize it.


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Moveset Edits/Option Submissions

Edits/options should be made by copying the most recent version of the moveset and description into an unattributed quote tags ([ QUOTE][ /QUOTE]). Then make any edits, additions, or replacements in bold text, removals should be in strike-through text. The most recent copy should taken from the top post or from the original submission post, depending on whichever one is most current.

Posters can and should comment on the reasoning and background for any proposed edits outside of Quote tags. Simple wording or spelling corrections do not need any explanation or commentary.

Additional move proposals must be made in the context of one or more movesets. The user cannot simply post "I suggest we add Taunt as an option to all non-choiced movesets", for example.


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Movepool Leader/Topic Leader Posts

The first post under the OP is reserved by the Movepool Leader, and will serve as the reference post for the current status of the discussion.

When the Movepool Leader determines that a moveset, option, or edit is accepted by intelligent community consensus, they will add/update a list of "Approved Movesets" in the first post. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add every submission to the first post automatically, simply because it was posted in the thread. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add a submission to the first post if it was not actively accepted by intelligent community consensus. "Lack of any response" is not the same as "acceptance". As with all CAP discussion threads, the leader should always use their best judgement.

If a proposal has received significant intelligent feedback (positive or negative), but it has not yet reached consensus, the Movepool leader should add it to an "Under Consideration" list in the first post. If the thread ends with controversial items that can't reach consensus, they will go to a community poll. In most cases, the "Under Consideration" list should be comprised of full movesets or additional option proposals. Edits to the description of most movesets, probably will not require extensive discussion or polling.

As the Movepool Leader makes updates to the first post, they should also post announcements in the thread indicating what they have added or updated. This will allow active discussion participants to easily track the progress of the thread. The Topic Leader should also post regular feedback in the thread, like every other competitive discussion.

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CAP 25 so far:

Topic Leader: reachzero

Topic Leadership Team:
EpicUmbreon29 - Typing
snake_rattler - Ability
jas61292 - Stats
cbrevan - Movepool

Name: Starter Trio CAPs

Description: This CAP is not one Pokemon, but three seperate Pokemon, based off of a Grass/Water/Fire starter trio.

Explanation: There is rarely such thing as a competitively viable starter Pokemon in the OU metagame, rare exceptions being Serperior, Greninja, and Blaziken for their insanely powerful abilities, and Infernape for his speed and movepool. Running three seperate CAP Processes with different Concepts can be loads of fun, and a nice way to celebrate CAP with our own starter trio! I'd love to see what the artists can come up with, and what pre-evos will be made alongside this trio, as well.
I've spoken to Birkal about this framework, and I've decided that this framework would definitely limit the Typing stage of each CAP, but not necessarily limit the Abilities stages, as Overgrow, Torrent, and Blaze aren't very competitively viable, and not necessarily limit the Stats stages, as starter trios tend not to share the same BSTs, giving us flexibility with where and how we want to place stats, especially with each "starter" most likely having a different concept from the others.

Possible Questions:
Is it possible to create a fully competitively viable Grass/Water/Fire trio?
What can be learned from a trio of Pokemon that will mostly likely check, if not counter, each other in a Rock Paper Scissors manner?
Exactly what does it take to create a fully competitively viable starter trio, something unprecedented in all of official, competitive Pokemon?

Of course, feedback is all but begged for as we work to flesh out this framework!

Starter Fact Sheet

Final Submission

• Name - Astounding Ability Actualization (Triple A)
• Description - These Pokemon each maximize the potential of their given, separate abilities by coordinating their movepools and that ability's competitive effect.
• Justification - This is an Actualization concept much like Cyclohm's original "Neglected Ability." In my research on what made Pokemon with "Starter Level" stats effective, the common denominator was they all had abilities they used to full effect with their other competitive aspects. This framework gives us a unique opportunity to A-B test some fairly powerful abilities we usually shy away from and bring out an effective competitive starter trio.
• Questions To Be Answered -
  • Which Abilities are best suited to a full, comprehensive exploration of their specific mechanics?
  • Why does Ability seem to be the common factor in taking "starter-esque" Pokemon into prominence (e.g. Protean and Battle Bond Greninja, Contrary Serperior, Speed Boost Blaziken to Ubers, etc.)
  • What is the threshold where maximizing an ability goes toi far, such as Blaziken's combination of Swords Dance, strong attack and mid-grade speed, and high BP STABS with Speed Boost or Protean Greninja's huge speed and just-varied enough movepool in prior Generations?
  • How will introducing three specialized Pokemon into the metagame at once impact it overall?
  • Which type combinations along with the starter types are best suited to maximizing the potential of a specific ability, and why?
• Explanation - Competitive Pokemon has suffered from a massive power creep for a long time. In order for a Pokemon to be effective, not only does it have to be fairly good generally, it also can't be directly outclassed. Considering our Framework, our Pokemon are already competing against Heatran/Volcarona, Toxapex/Keldeo/Greninja, and Ferrothorn/Kartana for offensive or defensive roles. However, each of those Pokemon have their own flaws that give our FWG CAP Trio space to explore if we are focused on a key niche for each of them.
  
  Let's take Grass for example, and Tough Claws. Tough Claws boosts one of the most incredibly CAP-relevant moves, Grass Knot, because it is a special contact attack. Only Mega Metagross ever even came close to utilizing this combination, and Mega-Meta was banned (for other reasons, of course). Grass could also use it's huge number of healing options with Triage, including priority Strength Sap that even outruns Bullet Punch. Nearly every Fire attack has a secondary effect chance perfect for Serene Grace or Sheer Force. Water has a few specific moves that would also love Serene Grace, but would also appreciate breaking through Gastrodon and Mollux with Mold Breaker. Suffice it to say, this concept gives us an ability to meet our Framework demands and think through a huge combination of synergistic types and abilities in a single project.

CAP 25g

Typing: Grass/Electric
Threats and Counters: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7875516
Abilities: Overgrow/Galvanize
Stats: 84 HP / 106 Atk / 82 Def / 77 SpA / 80 SpD / 106 Spe


CAP 25f

Typing: Fire/Ground
Threats and Counters: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7870058
Abilities: Blaze/Technician
Stats: 88 HP / 116 Atk / 67 Def / 88 SpA / 78 SpD / 97 Spe


CAP 25w

Typing: Water/Bug
Threats and Counters: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7872739
Abilities: Torrent/Poison Heal
Stats: 91 HP / 94 Atk / 110 Def / 80 SpA / 97 SpD / 63 Spe

 

[cbrevan]

Approved Movesets

Name: 3 Attacks Breaker
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Toxic / Stealth Rock
Ability: Technician
Item: Soft Sand / Groundium Z / Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Name: All Out Attacker
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: HP Ice / HP Electric
Move 4: Bullet Punch / Force Palm / Poison Fang
Ability: Technician
Item: Z Crystal / Expert Belt / Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty (+Spe -Def)

Name: Choice Scarf
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: Gunk Shot
Move 4: Bullet Punch / Will-O-Wisp / Defog / Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Hasty

Name: SpDef
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Will-O-Wisp
Move 3: Morning Sun
Move 4: Stealth Rocks / Taunt / Earthquake
Ability: Blaze
Item: Leftovers / Iapapa berry
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Name: Phazer
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: Circle Throw
Move 4: Stealth Rock / Morning Sun
Ability: Technician
Item: Shuca Berry / Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly (+Spe -SpA)

Name: Banded
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: Storm Throw
Move 4: Bullet Punch / Mach Punch
Ability: Technician
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Set Name: special lure (balance breaker)
Move 1: Overheat / Fire Blast / Incinerate
Move 2: Mud Shot / Earth Power
Move 3: Solar Beam / Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Acid Spray / Fire Spin / Sand Tomb
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Item: Grassium Z / Groundium Z / Firium Z / Shuca Berry

Name: Omniboosting lizard
Move 1: Celebration
Move 2: Bulldoze / Earthquake
Move 3: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 4: Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Electric]
Ability: Technician / Blaze
Item: Normalium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Under Consideration

None!

Disallowed Moves: Flame Charge, Bonemerang, Physical Bug-type moves, Physical Rock-type moves BP of 75 or greater (factoring Technician if applicable), Accelerock, Smack Down, Extreme Speed, Sucker Punch, Ice Shard, Shadow Sneak, Gastro Acid, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Agility, Rock Polish, Physical Grass-type coverage at or above 90 BP (factoring Technician if applicable), Bullet Seed

 

[cbrevan]

Hello everyone. As the final competitive stage for this CAP, we will be deciding on what moves are and are not appropriate for CAP 25f based on our starter framework, our concept, and our already determined factors such as typing, ability, and base stats. This will be done through carefully considering different movesets in regards to our concept and threatlist.

As per our concept, we will have two main goals to work with. Our first goal is to identify potential movesets that will best take advantage of our chosen ability, Technician. Our second goal, as decided in concept assessment, is to tailor our moveset so that CAP 25f is a primarily offensive Pokemon.

Our third consideration will be our threatlist, which should serve as a general guideline in what Pokemon to target with our movesets. Pay extra attention to this list when considering what Pokemon to calc for when building your proposed moveset.

Now, before I open the gates and allow moveset submissions, I would like us to spend one to two days with a general discussion concerning how our chosen ability Technician may affect our movesets. Considering how heavily this concept depends on ability and moves interactions, I think the discussion is warranted to better flesh out our expectations and desires for this stage. This will also give us an opportunity to explore how our framework may influence this stage.

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Technician. Are there ways to effectively utilize Technician in our movesets other than direct move interaction (moves with 60 BP and less)?

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen offensive direction?

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

Once I feel like these questions have been sufficiently explored, I'll open the thread up to moveset submissions and we'll proceed as outlined in the OP. At that time, I will post my expectations for moveset submissions. Until then, please refrain from posting moveset submissions. I'd like us to focus on these questions before we jump into the meat of the thread.

 

[Dogfish44]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Technician. Are there ways to effectively utilize Technician in our movesets other than direct move interaction (moves with 60 BP and less)?

I think we have a pretty concise pool of moves to consider here. Speed Control moves fall within what we can look at here - Bulldoze and Flame Charge being perhaps the most noteworthy for being STAB options. I think given our stat bias, we can also add on Power-Up Punch as an option here.

The other category of moves that's empowered by Technician are the Multi-Hit Moves. This is likewise obvious, but Bone Rush/Bonemerang are within STAB, and there may be room for other moves such as Gear Grind or Dual Chop (C+C Pending).

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen offensive direction?

Can I say that I don't know? Because... I genuinely don't know. Until a couple of days ago I can't think of anyone that would've said anything but "Slow Bulky Wallbreaker", but we are statlined at a bizarre Scarfing speed which won't tank hits for toffee.

Realistically, we're going to play the same: Come in on something we can force a switch from (Tapu Koko's a particularly good example), use the forced switch to smash something over the head, then either finish smashing, or maybe be forced out by offensive pressure?

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

First off, we shouldn't be bound by them particularly. Frostybiyt has made a spreadsheet for this, which I have taken the liberty of rehosting to Google Sheets Here. For Fire, our 100% "precedent" moves are listed in the Hide Tag.

Hide

Attract
Blast Burn
Confide
Double Team
Ember
Facade
Fire Blast
Fire Pledge
Fire Punch
Flame Charge
Flamethrower
Frustration
Giga Impact
Heat Wave
Hidden Power
Hyper Beam
Overheat
Protect
Rest
Return
Round
Sleep Talk
Snore
Substitute
Sunny Day
Swagger
Thunder Punch
Toxic
Will-O-Wisp
Work Up

Of these moves, I think we definitely need to be willing to talk about Flame Charge and Hidden Power without assuming them as guarenteed, since both have large competitive impacts.

And yes, I really am saying that I think that we shouldn't assume Hidden Power. Whilst it is able to use Technician, it gatekeeps a lot of other options - responses like Mega Lati@s, Landorus, and Zygarde all become shaky at best, and probably leaves us in a position where we can't tap into Speed Control options, which I feel on balance would harm our ability to explore concept beyond "yes having 90 BAP Coverage on every type is good".

edit: Deck: Lemme rephrase - I don't recall anyone prior to stat biases advocating for anything other than a slow bulky wallbreaker, and I would at the time have assumed that at least 90% of people would have said that, if anything, for 25f's role. I had problems with the stat biases, as I think a few other people did, but even then there is a comparative bulk difference between 102 PT and 125 PT.

Oh, and since I forgot: Yeah, Thunder Punch shouldn't be assumed, this is why we don't do CAP posts until at least our third coffee.

 

[Deck Knight]

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen offensive direction?

Can I say that I don't know? Because... I genuinely don't know. Until a couple of days ago I can't think of anyone that would've said anything but "Slow Bulky Wallbreaker", but we are statlined at a bizarre Scarfing speed which won't tank hits for toffee.

I just want to point out the maximum possible legal statline for defenses was 89/82/90 Defenses (and most other submissions got close to some variant of it), If that's any sort of definition of Bulky when you consider those would be almost entirely uninvested in favor of offenses, well, we just have different ideas of bulky. This is kind of like a reversed Lando-T distribution, but unlike Lando we don't have an effective +1 on our better defense on switchin.

As it stands the spread is bulkier than Talonflame which had a few interesting sets with Bulk Up and even a weird SpD one. Fire/Ground is like Fire/Flying in that it has a lot of built-in type resistance. Out limits were very much about pivoting bulk and come on DF, you know full well a bunch of people that would have said differently than "Slow Bulky Wallbreaker."

Additionally with STAB Speed control 25f could pull off a pretty cool Assault Vest set to capitalize on its decent SpD that doesn't get immediately dunked on by 95 Spe Scarfers. There are plenty of Scarf Pokemon that still outspeed this and can even OHKO through Assault Vest with Surf (but not much else). In short, I don't think Speed Control is overpowered, I think it perfectly suits 25f's role and offensive direction.

Realistically, we're going to play the same: Come in on something we can force a switch from (Tapu Koko's a particularly good example), use the forced switch to smash something over the head, then either finish smashing, or maybe be forced out by offensive pressure?

This always seemed to me to be the direction. People just had different ideas on how to execute it, and which Pokemon should supply that offensive pressure. At 97 Spe that pressure list excludes Scarf Landorus (assuming Hidden Power Ice) and Scarf Volkraken when 25f is at +1. It includes a number of faster scarfers who can capitalize on the lower defenses.

"Offensive Pivot" is an excellent general description of what 25f is capable of pursuing as a role. It has good type defense, a good speed tier to dissuade common Pokemon from coming in after the U-turn if it takes that instead of blocking Volt Switch, and it has a very threatening STAB combination. It's nearly perfect as an offensive core Pokemon and limited recovery like Morning Sun might make it even better in that role.

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Technician. Are there ways to effectively utilize Technician in our movesets other than direct move interaction (moves with 60 BP and less)?

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

Kind of answering these together.

Technician is very straightforward in what it does, but there is something that intrigues me as a competitive choice. In absence of Hidden Power (which is really Hidden Power Ice, Electric, or Grass as omni-coverage), Technician boosts a lot of moves that are useful depending on situation but don't have the universal utility of Hidden Power. Secondary effect moves like Circle Throw, Dragon Breath, Dragon Tail, Force Palm, Snarl, Struggle Bug, and probably a few others address different parts of C&C that could be explored in the absence of combination with just "any non-Fairy 90 BAP coverage."

When it comes to STABs, Flame Charge, Bone Rush, Bulldoze, and Mud Shot all come to mind immediately as moves that go from a strange situational speed control boost to something you can rely on without giving up a slot that would otherwise be for non-STAB utility.

I would gladly exchange the universality of Hidden Power for more ability to explore these secondary effect moves on sets.

 

[david0895]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Technician. Are there ways to effectively utilize Technician in our movesets other than direct move interaction (moves with 60 BP and less)?

As Dogfish said, both of Speed Control and Multi-Hit Moves are very good ways to benefit from Technician.

In the detail, Flame Charge could allow 25f to sweep or at least to avoid of being killed from 96- Scarf users, while dealing a decent damage.
For the Ground type, Bonemerang is boosted from 50 to 75, meaning that the final BP will be 150, which is higher than Earthquake.

 

[Catalisador]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Technician. Are there ways to effectively utilize Technician in our movesets other than direct move interaction (moves with 60 BP and less)?

Outside of Hidden Power, I have to agree that Technician highly benefits from Multi-hit moves. However, Fire/Ground coverage is nearly perfect. Most multi-hitting moves don't add anything in terms of coverage, except the STAB Bonemerang and Bone Rush (and the obviously OP Icicle Spear).
Another category of moves that benefits from Technician is the priority moves. However, again, there are currently no priority Fire- or Ground-type moves. And the already existing priorities don't add much coverage anyways - except two: Ice Shard and Water Shuriken, although I'm not sure how these moves could impact our threatlist if we eventually decide to give CAP25f access to them.
Thirdly, speed control is really interesting. Flame Charge and Bulldoze could make up for CAP25f's lack of speed and could also give it a good role as a late game cleaner.
Lastly, there are the moves that always result in a critical hit. Examples of that are Storm Throw and Frost Breath (which could be interesting, but would probably mess with our threatlist too much).

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen offensive direction?

To me, CAP25f is the most difficult out of the three to specify a role. I can't really figure out one outside of the generic bulky physically offensive attacker. Maybe as a potent wallbreaker with wide coverage if we decide to give it strong options such as Bonemerang and Frost Breath.

 

[Wenderz]

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen offensive direction?

The stats, typing and ability speak for themselves, CAP 25f main task would be wallbreaking, abusing extremely powerful moves like Bonemerang in tandem with other Technician boosted moves like HP Ice. However, as Deck Knight mentionned above, Fire / Ground has a very potent defensive potential against Tapu Koko, Magearna, some Krilowatt... Thus, a Specially Bulky tank is something that could fit CAP 25f, with or without AV. Lastly, a Revenge Killer is something to consider, as Technician boosts most priorities, but CAP 25f should make a good use of Choice Scarf.

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

I think people are worrying too much about HP power messing with our C&C list, as with an alright SpA, CAP 25f would already threaten Lando-T even without Technician, and Zygarde is hurt really badly by Multi-hit Ground moves already, so neither of them should become a reason not to give an universal TM like Hidden Power to CAP 25f. Also, Latios-Mega remain a solid offensive check even with HP Ice (0 SpA Life Orb Technician Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 146-172 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO ) and Latias-M is still an hard counter. Besides, I saw that posts above mine are arguing against HP due to the potential of hitting too much targets, but are also giving examples like Dual Chop or Dragon Tail, both of which hurt CAP 25f's answers even more, so I can't see why we would be worrying about 90 BP HP when we have Dragon-type physical moves, which in my opinion shouldn't happen. Moreover, other HP like Grass or Electric are very situationnal (against Rotom-W, Pelipper and Mantine. Gastrodon and Argho already fear the Ground STAB and CAP 25W remains a great answer). Overall, I don't think HP would be this mandatory to prevent the player from choosing other Technician boosted moves, even without an ideal coverage.

 

[Frostbiyt]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Technician. Are there ways to effectively utilize Technician in our movesets other than direct move interaction (moves with 60 BP and less)?

To answer the second part of the question first: kinda, we can more effectively utilize Technician by restricting 25f's access to stronger, non technician moves. I'm not saying we should, but we could disallow flare blitz to force the use of something like Flame Wheel instead.

For the first part of the question we have a few options. As far as Ground STAB goes, we have a few options. The first and most widely discussed is Bulldoze. Effective 90 BP attack that reduces the target's speed by one stage. With our chosen speed tier, I think Bulldoze should be off the table. This attack would extremely limit what can switch in as it gives 25f the ability to hit many pokemon twice that would normally out speed it. Next up is Bone Rush, 25BP 2 - 5 hit move. This attack has a 2/3 chance to do more damage than EQ, so it would definitely be run, but I'm not a fan of this move just because I don't want the best ground STAB to be so luck based. Our most consistently powerful option is Bonemerang at 50 BP with two hits, effectively 150 BP. This one I have no inherent issues with, but at 150 BP, we're gonna need to do a lot of calcs to ensure this isn't too powerful. The last option for ground is one I haven't seen much discussion on and that is Mud Shot. This is a special attack with 55 BP, effectively 82.5 BP, and it lowers the target's speed. I think that if we really want speed control, this is what we should run. It isn't nearly as strong or spammable as Bulldoze or Flame Charge as it comes off of the special attack so it probably won't mess with our checks and counters too much(I'm not at my comp, so I have no calcs though, so take this with a grain of salt).

We also have a few options for Fire STAB. There is Flame Charge, 50 BP attack that raises the user's speed. This one has similar issues to Bulldoze, so I won't go over that again. The other option for fire is Flame Wheel, a 60 BP fire attack with no drawbacks. Many people may look at this and see it as not worth running if we get Flare Blitz, but I don't think that is 100% true. Most sets probably would run Blitz over Flame Wheel, especially choice sets, but not Life Orb. Life Orb and Blitz recoil would be brutal and Flame Wheel is effectively a base 117 attack after Tech and LO boosts, so it would be a similar damage output to Blitz, but all of the other moves would be boosted as well.

As far as non-STAB coverage, we have limited options due to the powerful Fire/Ground STAB combo. Fighting, Poison, Steel, and Water are all options that, individually, don't mess with our checks and counters much. And most of these have good Technician compatible moves. Storm Throw is one option that offers a lot of power since it is 60 BP and always crit, effectively being a 135 BP attack with 100% acc. This would help with some match ups such as Colossoil or Greninja. These types also have Technician boosted priority attacks such as Mach Punch and Bullet Punch. Steel also has Gear Grind, which is a two hit 50BP move similar to Bonemerang.

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen offensive direction?

I think we could still aim for a wallbreaking or stall breaking role by denying speed boosts or other boosts outside of work up and by providing utility such as taunt.

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

I don't think restricting HP is necessary, but from that list I put together(see Dogfish's post) only Flame Charge and Thunder Punch should be left out. If 25f wants electric coverage, it should have to run HP imo.

 

[min min]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Technician?

Lots of people have mentioned Bulldoze and Mud Shot, which I really don't think are useful options at all. Looking at the checks and counters list, there are a grand total of 2 faster mons we hit with Ground-type speed-lowering moves: Syclant and Pajantom. A good number of Pajantom are specially defensive these days, and you'd have to have a lot of balls to hard switch a Syclant into 25f.

What does sound like a promising niche is Flame Charge, though not as our sole Fire STAB -- base 75 STAB off 116 Atk is veering near Electivire levels of bad. In fact, relying solely on Technician-boosted base power for our Fire STAB is not a good option IMO given that Fire/Ground's strengths lie in neutral - not super-effective - coverage. To that end, I would support Bone Rush (and Bonemerang to a lesser extent - it definitely improves the matchup against Clef and Arghonaut, while still not touching our main floating checks).

Are there ways to effectively utilize Technician in our movesets other than direct move interaction (moves with 60 BP and less)?

As Frosbiyt above mentioned, restricting access to Flare Blitz will nudge sets towards relying on Technician-boosted Fire STABs, but I'm not keen on having a base 116 Atk sweeper be reliant on 90 BP Flame Wheel + 100 BP Earthquake. Weavile's STABs are about as strong, and it's only marginally scary with a Choice Band even though it has higher attack than 25f. I'd say no to restricting Flare Blitz -- or if we do, then 25f ought to have one of the bone moves to continue being a relevant offensive threat.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Technician. Are there ways to effectively utilize Technician in our movesets other than direct move interaction (moves with 60 BP and less)?

I'm not going to mention the obvious Hidden Power just because its a required move, but it does get the boost.

There are some pretty obvious contenders here for Technician moves, those being the speed control moves of Bulldoze and Flame Charge. There are also the wide variety of multi-hit moves we could run to break through Substitutes, however the big ones that have caught traction have been Bone Rush and Bonemerang. Not personally a fan of either of these, as the former relies too much on luck for my taste and the latter is a 150 BP STAB with only minor accuracy issues, but I understand the appeal. Priority moves are an interesting route of possibility, so that is another way we use Technician, although we don't have any STAB priority moves. One thing that initially caught my eye is Storm Throw, which can give us a veritable 135 BAP Coverage move against every mon except Pyroak, but the overlap in coverage is off putting. Finally, damaging phasing moves like Dragon Tail and Circle Throw are a distinct possibility, as they let CAPf phaze out stuff and rack up hazard damage a la Arghonaut, although they don't offer much besides it.

I have a hard time finding a good answer to the second part of the question, mostly because the only moves effected are the actual damaging moves. You could do something like the Circle Throw + hazards phazing, but then we would still be using the moves. So technically, I only see that one option of alternative ways without using the damaging moves.

As for the non-Technician moves, I'm...fine with them. The extra 10 BP that Earthquake would have on Technician Bulldoze would not likely have a huge difference to it, and the speed dropping nature of the move would likely be appealing for killing stuff. Flare Blitz I am more hesistent about, but I think that physical 90 BP Flame Wheel or Flame Charge is likely not going to cut it, so I think that having one normal powered move and some Technician moves is good compromise.

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen offensive direction?
I'm hesistent to call it an actual wallbreaker because I don't think CAPf actually has the stats to be considered one. Our straight neutral coverage is solid, don't get that wrong, but I don't think 116 Attack is enough to become the scourge of walls everywhere, especially against the really bulky stuff. Of course, this could be fixed with moves, but I am still gonna be quite wary of most moves, especially that 150 BP Bonemerang. If we really did want to wall break however, we would likely do it through becoming a Choice Band Wallbreaker. We could also use our speed tier to become a revenge killer, most likely utilizing a Choice Scarf to outspeed a lot of stuff like Jumbao.

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

Dogfish's post on it pretty much sums up what I think. Flame Charge absolutely has the possibility of screwing with some of our faster checks if we are not careful, so we should really think about if we want that, even if its on every other fire starter. Hidden Power is also a scary proposition thanks to the fact we pretty much get the choice of either Thunderbolt or Ice Beam without the status effects, which could royally mess with a lot of possible checks. Both of these moves I think should be heavily considered before we make any serious decisions with them. I also agree with the stance on thunder punch, so it can run straight trinity coverage on one set.

 

[Mx]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Technician. Are there ways to effectively utilize Technician in our movesets other than direct move interaction (moves with 60 BP and less)?

Speed control: These of course can either improve our Speed, or lower our opponent's. The first one is the most consistent, as your opponent can simply switch out to remove any of their stat drops, but the second one can also be abused by another teammate, allowing it to outspeed something it normally couldn't, at least for one crucial turn. I've heard some people on Discord arguing that these kind of moves would be broken. However I think most of them should be fine, at least in theory.

Bulldoze: At first, one might think that this move can completely screw with our checks. However, a quick look at our threat-list shows that our check are either already slower than us (Zygarde, Non-Scarf Lando-T, Tomohawk), are immune to it (Mega Lati@s) or already struggles to switch into a Ground move (Greninja, Scarf Volkraken). I wouldn't go as far as min min did, and say that this move is useless, but is certainly not broken by any means.

Flame Charge is definitely the most powerful Speed control move, as raising one of your stats will always be preferred over lowering your opponent's. I think that this move is still fine, as even at +1, CAP 25f can still be revenge killed by fast Scarfers like Kitsunoh, Kartana, Crucibelle and Greninja, and also by Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken. Both Mega Latios and Latias are also still able to check us, even after Stealth Rock, Flame Charge + Z-Flare Blitz is unable to KO Hasty Mega Latios (252 Atk Technician Camerupt Flame Charge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Latios-Mega: 63-75 (20.9 - 24.9%) | 252 Atk Camerupt Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Latios-Mega: 159-188 (52.8 - 62.4%), with both max rolls, that is 24.9+64.4 =87.3%). On top of that, walls like Tomohawk, Pyroak and Arghonaut don't even care about the boost and beat CAP 25f 1v1. All in all Flame Charge is a powerful move, but I still think it should not be broken. However, despite this, I'm still not sure if this move is needed, as I think that the options are our disposal are already more than enough, so including this move feels like adding for the sake of adding, which is never a good thing.

Rock Tomb: This move might not be as strong as Bulldoze and might not provide a strict +1 boost like Flame Charge, but I really dislike Rock coverage for this project because it screws with Gyarados and Pelipper, two of our designated checks. Additionally, lowering Mega Latios speed for one of our teammates might be situational, but it might lead to cases where CAP 25f switches for Flame Orb Colossoil while Mega Latios roosts, so then you can freely click Pursuit for massive damage without having to worry about Ice Beam.

Multi-hit moves: Most of the multi-hit moves (Icicle Spear, Rock Blast, Pin Missile, Bullet) should not allowed, as they mess with our checks way too much. The two moves of this kind that most definitely deserve some discussion are of course Bonemerang and Bone Rush. The first one is the most reliable one, as it always hit for 150 BP thanks to our ability; the second one is a bit more incosistent, but has a chance of being even stronger if it hits five times, capping at 187,5 BP. The main problem these two move create is that most our defensive checks (Arghonaut most notably) can be overwhelmed by their power. I think that CAP 25f wallbreaking capabilities are already more than enough (at least if we include Hidden Power) so adding these moves would allow this project to completely obliterate almost any defensive mon bar Tomohawk, which would be healthy to the metagame at all.

Priority: This kind of move has been abused by Technician users in the past (Most notably with Scizor's Bullet Punch). Unfortunately, our typing doesn't give us access to any STAB priority, significantly reducing the usefulness of these moves. Here are the most notable options:

Ice Shard: Definitely the most powerful option, Physical Ice priority would be ridiculous alongside our STAB moves, this shouldn't be allowed.

Mach Punch/Accelrock: Probably the other two most powerful priority available. These moves are capable if dealing significant damage to Greninja, Gyarados and Pelipper, mons that would otherwise be able to revenge kill us without much trouble. For this reason alone, I'm not a huge fan of neither of these.

Quick Attack: Normal-type moves are very rarely used because of their bad coverage. However, I think this move could see some use, especially on Life Orb/Choice Band sets, as it can revenge kill weakened foes, and our STABs should already provide us with pretty good coverage. I can see some people arguing that because this move hits almost everything for neutral damage, it could screw our checks, however I think this is not the case, as even after Technician, this is still a non-STAB 60 BP move. For reference, even when using a Choice Band with and Adamant Nature, this move is unable to 2HKO Hasty Mega Latios after Stealth Rock (252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Camerupt Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Latios-Mega: 111-131 (36.8 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock). All this makes me think that Quick Attack might be a bit weak, but is probably the best priority move to abuse with Technician.

Fake Out: This move works pretty differently to the others, as it can be used to provide some decent chip damage against almost everything, without almost any risk as your opponent will always just flinch, negating their move. This potential to be mindlessly spammed makes me think that this move is probably too much, although it probably still deserves some consideration.

Guaranteed critical hit moves: I think that in paper, these could be an interesting option to explore, because they can provide unique high-powered coverage moves. However the problem is that the only moves of this kind are Frost Breath and Storm Throw. The first one would allows us to use a Ice-type attack stronger than Blizzard (60 x 1.5 [Technician Boost] x 1.5 [Critical Hit] = 135 BP). This would be insanely powerful, as the power difference against HP Ice is significant, most notably allowing us to OHKO offensive Zygarde and 2HKO Mega Latios without any SpA investment. This is of course, in addition of allowing us to use other types of Hidden Power. For these reasons, Frost Breath should be banned. Storm Throw on the other hand is just not very useful. Fire+Ground+Fighting coverage is just redundant, and the only mons it targets are Dark-types like Greninja and Colossoil, which are already unable to switch into a neutral move. Overall, I wouldn't mind if this is allowed, but I don't think this has any use whatsoever.

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen offensive direction?

I imagine that CAP 25f primary role should be a powerful wallbreaker, as not many mons can handle our raw power. Scarf sets should also serve as a pretty good revenge killer, as at +1 Speed, we can outspeed many important targets, like Zygarde and Aurumoth at +1. Some people have been mentioning CAP 25f as an offensive pivot, but the problem with this is that I don't think any legal pivot move could fit into our movepool. Volt Switch would screw Gyarados and Pelipper, U-Turn would hurt Mega Latios and Latias, and Parting Shot can allow a teammate to set up much more easily. This is of course in addition to the damage that entry hazard would already cause to them when they switch. I'm also pretty skeptical of specially defensive sets, sure we can wall things like Tapu Koko and even most Krilowatt if we invest on defense, but our bulk is not great, so neutral attacks would wear us down with ease. On top of that, we are vulnerable to all entry hazards, so it would be extremely easy to overload a defensive CAP 25f set. This issues could be mitigated by allowing recovery moves, but I don't think this is a good idea, as offensive sets would also get access to them, making them even more threatening and harder to play around.

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

I don't think it's a good idea to let the starter framework influence this discussion at all. Creating the best possible final product should always take precedence over any flavor discussion. Additionally, the problem with doing this is that flavor is always subjective from one person to another, and might change radically in the future, making the decisions made now obsolete. This of course apply to all of three CAP 25.

 

[Roland le preaux]

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

I think our starter framework should influence our movepool. This is the first CAP starter trio and I think we should do the framework justice by adhering to as many starter precedents as possible, such as access to the move Hidden Power, because these traditions in part define starter gameplay. Every starter getting Hidden Power isn't just flavor; it's a competitive precedent. Starters have access to a 60 BP special move to super-effectively anything that they need to. If we deny this attacking move to 25f, we aren't following the framework of CAP 25 because we are no longer trying to make an actual starter for the CAP metagame.

During the stats stage we were very focused on the starter framework. What about the movepool stage means it should be any different?

 

[Mx]

I think our starter framework should influence our movepool. This is the first CAP starter trio and I think we should do the framework justice by adhering to as many starter precedents as possible, such as access to the move Hidden Power, because these traditions in part define starter gameplay. Every starter getting Hidden Power isn't just flavor; it's a competitive precedent. Starters have access to a 60 BP special move to super-effectively anything that they need to. If we deny this attacking move to 25f, we aren't following the framework of CAP 25 because we are no longer trying to make an actual starter for the CAP metagame.

During the stats stage we were very focused on the starter framework. What about the movepool stage means it should be any different?

The problem with this argument is that access to Hidden Power is not something exclusive to starters, virtually all Pokemon learn that move by TM, and that reasoning would apply to CAP 25f regardless of our framework. The problem with adhering to starter precedent are the not-so universal moves, like how Fire starters have always learned Thunder Punch. These kind of stuff was never considered important precedent on the previous stages, so our selected stats and abilities never accounted for them. Just looking at our threatlist, Gyarados and Pelipper were included as checks, not even included on the Pressure section. "Trying to make actual starters" is a completely subjective measure that will inevitably vary from person to person, and has always changed and became looser as Generations went by. Of course, if the moves in questions are not considered competitive, there is no reason to exclude them, but when talking about competitive movesets, starter precedent should always take a backseat, because that is not what the CAP project is about.

On the more specific Hidden Power, I think it is easily the most interesting move to pair with Technician, because it gives us access to a special 90 BP coverage move of any type we could want (Bar Fairy-type, but I doubt it would have seen much use). I can see some people arguing that this move would completely ruin any potential check to CAP 25f, however, it should be remembered that an individual set can only use one HP type. This mean that if you wanted to run HP Ice to deal with Zygarde, you cannot run HP Electric to beat Gyarados and Pelipper. On top of that, our SpA is mediocre at best, so HP fails to deal significant damage to bulkier threats like Tomohawk, Arghonaut and Mega Lati@s unless we are willing to spend EVs on it, which would severely weaken CAP 25f on the physical side.

 

[Ahhhhhh......Clefable.]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Technician. Are there ways to effectively utilize Technician in our movesets other than direct move interaction (moves with 60 BP and less)?

I know I might be in the minority here, but I firmly believe that we should avoid both Flare Blitz and even Earthquake. We want to focus on successful coordination of our movepool with Technician, and I’m worried that having either one of these in our movepools reduces the chance that we’ll actually use something boosted by Technician.

I understand wanting the raw power of Flare Blitz, but we can get close to that power with Flame Wheel and Life Orb with significantly less recoil. Plus we have options for boosting moves like Swords Dance. And Bonemerang / Bome Rush / Bulldoze take full advantage of our Ground-type STAB AND get the Technician boost.

 

[Gross Sweep]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Technician. Are there ways to effectively utilize Technician in our movesets other than direct move interaction (moves with 60 BP and less)?

A main discussion point for this one has been speed control. Bulldoze, Flame Charge, and Rock Tomb drawing the most attention. I think all of these moves have their merits, but I am not on board with all of them being included. Every fire ground loves rock coverage, but given our threat list I understand keeping this one off our mon. Bulldoze seems worth including as it gives us STAB slightly weaker than EQ with the upside of a speed drop on successful hits. Flame Charge doesn't have the same stand alone power as Bulldoze, but it hits a higher amount of mons in the meta. Both have ups and downs. Bulldoze can be a standalone ground stab offering an extra move slot as opposed to Flame Charge which while getting the boost vs more mons will more than likely require a second fire STAB like Flare Blitz meaning one less slot for filler. Flame Charge also boosts the user so the boost stays forever, unlike Bulldoze and Rock Tomb which drop a single opponents speed making it less efficient as speed control.

Next we can discuss stab more in general with Ground having the options of: Bulldoze, Bonemerang, and Bone Rush. All three provide something a bit different, and worth looking into. Honestly wouldn't be mad if the mon got all three as they're all usable imo. Fire stab has options in Flame Charge and Flame Wheel. We've discussed Charge already, and wheel is interesting as it provides a solid physical fire type attack that doesn't have draw backs like recoil such as Flare Blitz.

Hidden Power is an almost universal move our mon will more than likely experiment with, giving us whatever coverage we want with a Technician Boost. Our respectable SpA stat makes us dangerous with this coverage, so it's something to watch out for (tho we more than likely wont invest much in SpA).

Priority is the last big one. I don't think much priority aside from normal type options like Quick Attack and Fake Out should be considered due to power concerns. Neither of the two mentioned options will come close to overpowered unless the meta shifts in some weird manner, and it provides a cool little tech that will give this mon a little opportunity to mess with others at some point.

What kind of roles should we pursue to complement both our concept and chosen offensive direction?

Strong offensive mon either looking to wall break, or clean late game potentially based on whether or not we get a reliable way to boost our speed in Flame Charge. I think most people are on the same page with this one being something that just hits hard. Could probably break this down more, but I don't really feel the need. Might touch on this more if direction somehow drastically changes.

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

I think things should be watched carefully, but I feel starter precedent is worth monitoring and trying to include. if something is going to break the meta, then we say no to the precedent, but the idea that it should have zero effect on our starter CAPs seems foolishly wrong. Some can argue this is CAP and our goal is to make competitive mons first and foremost, but this is a special celebration CAP so any argument centered around "that's just not how we do things in cap" or "it just doesn't matter" seems wrong to me. This whole celebration process has been centered around making starters from our typing, to our Blaze/Torrent/Overgrow, to our BST limitations. I'm not saying we set things in stone, but I do think we go over traditions and look into adding them if they don't break the mon. I think Tpunch for 25F was mentioned earlier, and we simply look at whether or not that example would make the mon busted. If yes, we simply don't include that option, but it should definitely have some formal consideration. I don't think these precedents should drastically influence us when deciding on movesets, but I do think they should be addressed right before flavor takes over deciding whether or not to add the moves based on if they strongly influence the sets we as a community have outlined as adequate in an unhealthy manner.

 

[jas61292]

As far as the role we want to play, I personally am not buying into the whole wallbreaker idea. I've seen it mentioned a lot, but we haev 116 Attack and an ability that is not boosting our strongest moves. We have great neutral coverage, but are probably relying on Hidden Power to score super effective hits. Yeah, we could break some things, but I just don't see us actually packing the punch to break walls that we hit neutrally (Tomohawk, for example). Bonemarang could give us the punch we need to break stuff, but beyond that... I just don't see us suited for that role. I think we fit much better as a more traditional sweeper, whether it be via boosting (or stat dropping) or with a Choice Item. I am particularly interested in the speed control moves, as they actually pack a bit of a punch, thanks to our ability, and make us harder to switch into.

Now, as far as the question of precedents, I think we should generally be fine sticking with most of them. But I would caution against adding precedents where there are not really any to begin with. Perhaps most notably, I would not simply assume that we should have Flare Blitz. This is a move that I have seen assumed in most discussions, but not only is this move not even a universal move on fire starters, but it also potentially overshadows some moves that could be utilized to help fulfill the concept. Furthermore, by reducing the top power of our moves, we can consider a wider variety of other moves that might have been considered too much if our main STAB was just plowing through everything.

 

[hawk1113]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Technician. Are there ways to effectively utilize Technician in our movesets other than direct move interaction (moves with 60 BP and less)?

Most of what I want to say, has been said - we have some great Speed Control and Multi-hit moves in our STAB wheelhouse (with Flame Charge and Bull Doze for speed control and Bone Rush/Bonemerang for multi-hit attacks), as well as a good way to just generally hit decently hard on the physical side with Flame Wheel which is weaker than Flare Blitz but doesn't do recoil damage to us. There are a few specifics I wanted to touch on for this though:

- Sand Tomb hasn't been mentioned. I'm not sure we're really built to utilize partial trapping, and going from 35 to ~52 damage doesn't make a huuuuge difference, but it is a STAB move we could utilize.

- I can't imagine us not letting 25f have Hidden Power. It'd be unprecedented. Yes, it allows us the possibility to go mixed, or just use uninvested HP: Ice or HP: Rock to wreck certain things, but I think we'll be okay.

- Priority is always contentious. I think Quick Attack and Fake Out are totally fine although perhaps not neccesary with speed control + 97 base speed. I think every other priority move is too dangerous. Mach Punch is likely the safest move, but it does allow us to wreck Stratagem which is on our list as a Check.

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 247-291 (76.9 - 90.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock​

​

Now, that's not a huge deal and isn't world-ending. We still can't switch in on Stratagem as we'll likely just die to Earth Power and we take like 50% from everything else it carries. It just lets us guaranteed win on a mutual switch or a lucky prediction. Bullet Punch should not be allowed though - it similarly destroys Stratagem, but also destroys M-Aerodactyl. Aero is admittedly a low-usage mon but one we wanted to counter 25f.​

​

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock​

​

Next we have Accelerock. Under no circumstances can we have this, or any other, rock move. 25f has precious few 'mons that can safely switch into us repeatedly, and any Rock coverage (even 40 -> 60 BP coverage) threatens to destroy those few 'mons like Pelipper and Gyarados,that can actually tank us out. It also hits Aerodactyl pretty hard, so hard that it can't switch in on us safely anymore. That may not seem like a lot, but when we have like 12 counters removing three of them is a pretty big deal. Now, this may seem to fly in the face of my HP reasoning, but I think it's a significant sacrifice to carry HP: Electric to beat those two Water/Flying 'mons as it means giving up the HP: Ice we'd love to beat stuff like Gliscor, Lando, Zygarde. But giving us rock coverage means we can run that and also run a big HP.​

​

Finally is Ice Shard. Ice Shard should, it goes without saying, not be allowed - same problem for poor Aerodactyl, but now we have a move that absolutely demolishes Gliscor and heavily wears down Landoge and Pajantom. Far too unbalancing.​

​

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

I think we're bound by universal moves (i.e., we should absolutely have Hidden Power despite the dangers of it), but should not worry about Fire-type precedent. In particular, Thunder Punch is very dangerous on this 'mon for all the same reasons rock coverage is and Flare Blitz, while not overpowered, feels extremely anti-concept. If we can protect those moves, and if they're just flavor, we should - but we shouldn't be bound to them at all.

 

[wadusher]

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

The most important precedent I can think of is the fact that, as of gen 7, not a single fully evolved physical fire type is missing flare blitz, apart from certain legendaries who have even crazier signature moves or aren't fire types when itemless. Stuff like Delphox is not a precedent for omitting this move due to its nonexistent attack and respectable special attack - it would only be a precedent if its offensive stats were mirrored but its movepool didn't compensate for it.

missing flare blitz

This is an extension of a deeper precedent which is that Every starter actualizes both their abilities, regardless of which is more useful. In fact, doing so is arguably pro-concept since there's no reason for our concept to exclude Blaze, no matter how much we focus on Technician. This ensures that withholding Flare Blitz is anti-concept, unless we fill in the gap with, say, a 95bp 90% accuracy signature fire STAB that allows blaze sets to function but isn't overshadowed by technician flame wheel. Its not unheard of for starters to pack signature moves like that but I don't think its necessary here.

 

[amzaneok]

Hi there. I normally just lurk on these forums, but I wanted to post my 2c for once since I've been following CAP pretty vigilantly for the past gen, and it's in regards to how much I'm seeing opposition to a certain coverage move because of the list of dedicated checks. So can't wait for my first post in CAP to get bashed, yay!

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

Rock Tomb is not even guaranteed to kill them using a Jolly Life Orb set with Stealth Rocks up. Otherwise, it's a guaranteed 3HKO.

-1 252 Atk Life Orb CAP25f Rock Tomb vs. 96 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 127-151 (35.7 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb CAP25f Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 114-135 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I really think the exclusion of Rock Tomb and Rock-type coverage from its movepool is going to heavily limit the amount of speed control options we can have that actually take advantage of Technician to a fuller extent, and reduce the overall viability of this CAP. Sure, Bulldoze being STAB and having 90 BP and STAB is great and all, but there are just way too many things immune to Ground-type moves, especially when we are using a speed control move more for its utility than its power.

I'm also against excluding Flare Blitz for the sake of forcing Flame Wheel or Flame Charge (at 75 BP? Oof.) as physical Fire-type STAB to be "pro-concept". Bulldoze and Rock Tomb alone are very, very pro-concept, and there are definitely other Technician-boosted moves we can look into for utility. Banning Flare Blitz as a move option is not pro-concept in my opinion. It's forcing the concept, which isn't inherently viable when our moves cap at a very average 90 BP. Just because we have a concept with this CAP doesn't mean that all 4 moves on its set need to actualize it, especially when it hinders its success. (Also banning Earthquake is crazy when for 10 BP less you can get a STAB speed control option. Bulldoze is objectively better.)

Modedit: Removed flavor reasoning.

 

[Zetalz]

Rock Tomb is not even guaranteed to kill them using a Jolly Life Orb set with Stealth Rocks up. Otherwise, it's a guaranteed 3HKO.

-1 252 Atk Life Orb CAP25f Rock Tomb vs. 96 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 127-151 (35.7 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb CAP25f Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 114-135 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You didn't include Technician in these calcs.

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Rock Tomb vs. 96 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 190-226 (53.5 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 172-203 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rock Tomb is most definitely breaking past these checks to CAP25f. As for the rest I completely agree, banning EQ or Flare Blitz is anti-concept and limits the options this mon has. If it doesn't have Flare Blitz it's literally forced to run Tech to have a decent Fire STAB, which isn't okay for a starter. Disallowing EQ is less stupid but at the same time, why even? If Bulldoze is superior on Tech sets there's no reason it shouldn't be allowed.

also yay first post in a cap process

 

[amzaneok]

You didn't include Technician in these calcs.

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Rock Tomb vs. 96 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 190-226 (53.5 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 172-203 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rock Tomb is most definitely breaking past these checks to CAP25f. As for the rest I completely agree, banning EQ or Flare Blitz is anti-concept and limits the options this mon has. If it doesn't have Flare Blitz it's literally forced to run Tech to have a decent Fire STAB, which isn't okay for a starter. Disallowing EQ is less stupid but at the same time, why even? If Bulldoze is superior on Tech sets there's no reason it shouldn't be allowed.

also yay first post in a cap process

God damn it I hate the calc and thank you for pointing that out.

Regardless, please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they still constitute as checks even with that kind of damage? If I'm not mistaken, they're still checks if they win the 1v1, even with Stealth Rock up. Is this definition no longer valid in 2018? I really think the loss of a reliable speed control move combined with good coverage (the way Marshadow and Breloom use it) will harm the goal of ability actualization in the long run, and also just CAP25f's options and viability in general.

 

[G-Luke]

God damn it I hate the calc and thank you for pointing that out.

Regardless, please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they still constitute as checks even with that kind of damage? If I'm not mistaken, they're still checks if they win the 1v1, even with Stealth Rock up. Is this definition no longer valid in 2018? I really think the loss of a reliable speed control move combined with good coverage (the way Marshadow and Breloom use it) will harm the goal of ability actualization in the long run, and also just CAP25f's options and viability in general.

Pelipper and Gyarados are one of our few actual "counters", and preserving their interaction with CAPf is vital. Also, Flyinium Z Gyarados does not run Intimidate, which is the Gyarados that should be countering CAPf.

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 286-338 (86.4 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Pelipper: 208-247 (64.3 - 76.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Nice counters mate

 

[Warren685]

What moves coordinate best with our ability, Technician. Are there ways to effectively utilize Technician in our movesets other than direct move interaction (moves with 60 BP and less)?
Aside from Hidden Power being a good tech move, there's Bulldoze and Flame Charge that provide excellent STAB options for 25f, as said before those moves can be our speed control for the game, affecting our effectiveness against certain mons. There's been also thoughts of adding Rock moves such as Rock Tomb, Rock Throw, or Rock Slide into our movepool to add a bit of coverage and being pro-concept ,but it'll deeply affect counters like Pelipper which we want to preserve. Instead we could let it have Power Gem which won't be as menacing as the others.

4 SpA Life Orb Camerupt Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 228 SpD Pelipper: 138-164 (42.7 - 50.7%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO

4 SpA Life Orb Camerupt Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 135-161 (40.7 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Dece1t]

I'm seeing some discrepancy in this discussion. There's people claiming 25f's base 116 Attack is not strong enough to be considered a wallbreaker, yet there's others claiming Flare Blitz will be too powerful and threaten too much....

It's either one or the other, you can't have both lol. Personally, I think Flare Blitz is fine coming off of (most likely) a neutral base 116 Attack. I also think Bonemerang and Bone Rush (the former especially) would be some really awesome tech, being able to hit multiple times to break subs and accrue more base power than Earthquake. Ice Shard and Frost Breath...I seriously do not get why that came up, given we're trying to limit 25f's coverage due to the broadness of its STABs. I think it's obvious that those should not be included, as it allows it to run more varied HP tech to cover other threats it wouldn't with additional ice coverage. Accel Rock is really cool on paper as a weak rock attack and a nice form of priority for revenge kills, I wouldn't toss this one out immediately. While this does no longer make us be countered by Gyarados and Pelipper (even though HP Electric with some investment is an option), there are many slower wallbreakers in CAP that also don't have many true counters if at all, yet they're still more than balanced. Good examples being Hoopa-U, Aurumoth to a more limited extent, and a boosted Tapu Bulu. Aside from maybe Aurumoth (who often doesn't play a wallbreaker role as is, but is equally as dangerous), these are all slow and able to be revenge killed, the difference here being 25f is looking like it'll have access to Flame Charge to remedy that. I could give or take Accel Rock, but it would be interesting to at the bare minimum consider.

How may our starter framework influence move choice when discussing potential movesets? Are they any precedents we should consider when submitting movesets? Should we be bound by these precedents or accept/reject them as needed?

Mx stated this best imo, I do believe if it means keeping the integrity of the balanced meta, disregard some precedents. For a flavor-based argument, precedents have been broken by gamefreak repeatedly before. While it is certainly interesting, it should be secondary to this mon's competitive viability (i.e. claiming it needs Thunder Punch, which I whole-heartedly disagree with).

Otherwise, I've been loving lurking around this project, keep it up! :)