CAP 25 - Part 9 - CAP 25g Moveset Discussion

[cbrevan]

This is your moveset update post with obligatory summary of most of the movesets that have been posted so far. Before we get into these sets, I've decided to disallow Extreme Speed. Thread consensus would have us believe that the overall power level of the move is too high for a single moveslot, and there has been widespread support for Quick Attack + Swords Dance in its stead. In addition, no post or even an effort has been made in this thread to dispute the inclusion of Quick Attack + Swords Dance, so I plan to approve one such set after some minor tweaking.

This thread has been relatively straightforward with most sets mirroring others to some degree in usage. By far the most popular sets submitted were based around Swords Dance and Quick Attack, which I interpreted as the ICC wanting 25g to function as a boosting sweeper. As such, my decisions around disallowing moves and approving movesets is centered around accomodating these sets. From here on out I'd like us to discuss the moves I commented on and examine the submitted movesets alongside eachother. Is there a yet unforseen combination of moves from two different movesets that could create a potentially unbalanced movesets? Did we miss any move interactions because they were submitted on different sets? How else can we apply already approved moves?

Swords Dance

Name: Swords Dance Breaker
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Return
Move 3: Power Whip / Wood Hammer
Move 4: Quick Attack / Knock Off
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb / Magnet
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Name: Swords Dance + Quick Attack
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Quick Attack
Move 3: Power Whip / Horn Leech
Move 4: Return / Body Slam / Double-Edge
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Grassium Z / Magnet
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Name: Swords Dance Z-Sweeper
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Quick Attack
Move 3: Horn Leech
Move 4: Explosion
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Normalium-Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Name: Normalium Z Nuke (with multiple uses)
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Head Charge / Double Edge
Move 3: Horn Leech
Move 4: Quick Attack / Knock Off
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Normalium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Adamant

Name: Swords Dance Priority Abuser
Move 1: Fake Out
Move 2: Swords Dance
Move 3: Quick Attack
Move 4: Horn Leech / Power Whip
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb / Magnet
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Onto the sets themselves, a number of Swords Dance variations have been suggested with differences centered around coverage options and items. Explosion allows 25g access to a one time nuke when used with Normalium Z in addition to its regular usage as a nuclear option. No calcs were provided for Explosion at +2, but +2 Z Explosion does enough to clearly ohko Mega Latias and OHKO Mega Latias after Stealth Rock. The same goes for most other of potential checks that are neither Physically Defensive Cyclohm or dedicated physical walls such as Pyroak and Tangrowth. Not to mention, Explosion itself is doing absurd amounts of damage to everything but the aforementioned Pokemon at +2. With that in mind, I'm on the fence as to whether or not Explosion should be allowed, since it seems to offer too much damage against what should be our defensive switchins at +2.

Knock Off seems balanced for what it does, as the main matchup it affects notably at +2 is against Mega Latios, as it has a chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Even at +2 it doesn't do nearly enough to Pyroak, Tangrowth, Kyurem-B, and other single grass resistances since Double Edge out damages it.

Ground coverage was mentioned later in the thread for different sets as a way to threaten Mega Crucibelle, Fidgit, and Heatran. However, at +2 even a Tectonic Rage from Stomping Tantrum has a change to OHKO Physically Defensive Cyclohm after Stealth Rocks, meaning that anything more powerful would OHKO it. Considering that Double Edge unboosted is a 2hko on Heatran and the combination of Return + Quick Attack + Stealth Rock damage or Double Edge + Quick Attack KOs Mega Crucibelle, the only matchup it notably swings is versus Fidgit. With that in mind, I'm leaning towards disallowing physical Ground coverage above 60 BP in order to retain Cyclohm as a definitive check to 25g, just to play it safe with what could be a potent setup sweeper and its best defensive check.

Non-boosting Offensive Sets

Name: Choice Band
Move 1: Return / Body Slam / Double-Edge
Move 2: Power Whip / Horn Leech
Move 3: Quick Attack
Move 4: Knock Off / Explosion
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Name: Offensive Pivot
Move 1: Fake Out
Move 2: Volt Switch
Move 3: Double Edge / Quick Attack
Move 4: Wood Hammer
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Magnet / Normalium-Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Jolly

Name: Utility Attacker
Move 1: Return
Move 2: Knock Off
Move 3: Rapid Spin
Move 4: Power Whip / Volt Switch
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Magnet
EVs: 168 HP / 72 Atk / 16 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Name: Physically Biased Mixed
Move 1: Boomburst
Move 2: Power Whip
Move 3: Return / Body Slam
Move 4: Knock Off / Quick Attack
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Magnet / Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe*
Nature: Hasty / Naive

Name: Scarf Sweeper
Move 1: Double-Edge / Body Slam / Facade / Return
Move 2: Wood Hammer / Horn Leech
Move 3: Horn Leech / Rapid Spin / Explosion
Move 4: U-Turn
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

These sets all seek to use 25g as a physically biased offensive Pokemon by taking advantage of its Galvanize boosted STAB moves. I would approve the Choice Band set if it wasn't for the inclusion of Explosion, which while it may be balanced on purely offensive set, I'm wary of in conjunction with Swords Dance.

Fake Out is an interesting tech option to get in relevant chip damage, especially when combined with Volt Switch. What I'm most interested in is to see calcs of Fake Out + Quick Attack, just to better understand the potential revenge killing capabilities it would allow.

Utility Attacker is an approved moveset. Rapid Spin is pro-concept and hasn't had any significant detractors despite being included in several submissions. Volt Switch gives access to a pivoting move, which is most relevant against our Dragon, Grass, and Electric-type switch ins. Similarly to Rapid Spin, Volt Switch was included on several movesets with no argument presented against it, so it has been approved along with this set.

Physically Biased Mixed has also been approved. Paralysis via Body Slam is only relevant against Mega Latis on our list of wanted Checks and Counters, which seems like a minimal enough impact to allow. Boomburst is not only pro-concept but helps improve our matchup against Tomohawk and other Pokemon we seek to pressure, while hitting nothing on our list of wanted Checks and Counters in a significant way. Of course, I'll take the proactive step and ban any Special Attack boosting set up options aside from Work Up and any non-competitive +1 Special Attacking boosting move.

The Scarf set is sound in theory but has way to many slashes to be approved. I'm also unsure about allowing U-turn since it plays around Cawmodore while getting relevant chip on Mega Latis. Also, there isn't a dire need for U-turn seeing how 25g already pressures every relevant Ground-type besides Fidgit through Power Whip and Wood Hammer.

Other

Name: Choice Specs
Move 1: Boomburst
Move 2: Volt Switch
Move 3: Leaf Storm / Giga Drain
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Choice Specs
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

This set wants to make full use of Galvanize Boomburst, but has little else going for it when compared to physical attacking sets. None of the moves seem controversial but at the same time I'm unsure of approving a moveset that would most likely see little play, especially with Boomburst already approved via the Physically Biased Mixed set.

 

[TheTankPlays]

Moveset Submission

Name: Bulky Curse set
Move 1: Curse
Move 2: Return
Move 3: Horn Leech
Move 4: Quick Attack
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• I don't think anyone has paid much attention to Curse yet as a viable option for 25g, mainly due to the fact that it decreases its speed stat. However, I think Curse is a great option for it, for a number of reasons. First, it increases 25g's attack to better abuse its great Galvanized moves. It also helps 25g tank hits from the likes of Kartana (who we're supposed to switch in on) better. Finally, since we have access to Galvanize-boosted priority, the loss of speed doesn't really matter as much as it could have.
• Return is pretty self-explanatory, and is probably our most spammable electric STAB move.
• Horn Leech is our main form of recovery, as well as our Grass STAB. It helps us heal off Life Orb damage as well, which is a bonus. Plus, 25g is now officially a moose, so Horn Leech seems like a given.
• Since Extreme Speed is now banned, our best option is now Quick Attack. It's now the best stab priority move that we can get, but it can zap birds out of the sky before they can even react, and it doesn't become too overpowered when combined with stat boosts. Overall, I think that Quick Attack is a good priority attack for 25g.

 

[G-Luke]

Other

Name: Choice Specs
Move 1: Boomburst
Move 2: Volt Switch
Move 3: Leaf Storm / Giga Drain
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Choice Specs
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

This set wants to make full use of Galvanize Boomburst, but has little else going for it when compared to physical attacking sets. None of the moves seem controversial but at the same time I'm unsure of approving a moveset that would most likely see little play, especially with Boomburst already approved via the Physically Biased Mixed set.

The neat thing about Boomburst is that despite coming off CAPg's significantly weaker SpA, it still manages to outdamage standard -ate Returns.

252 Atk Choice Band Galvanize Abomasnow Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 259-306 (75.9 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Galvanize Abomasnow Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 289-342 (84.7 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

While the other STAB may be a bit lackluster, its the Boomburst damage we are going after, and forms a neat surprise for physical walls switch in on it. Now, CAPg's checks are still maintained, stuff like Pyroak and Cyclohm can still comfortably switchin even if Rocks are up. I dont think Choice Specs should be discredited as a set.

 

[david0895]

Adding to what I said previously about U-turn, I want to say there's no need to have U-turn when you have Volt Switch.
On the choiced sets, we can bypass the Ground-types that can lock us on Electric moves, but they are already threatened by the Grass moves

 

[Origin0]

Moveset Submission

Name: Bulky Curse set
Move 1: Curse
Move 2: Return
Move 3: Horn Leech
Move 4: Quick Attack
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• I don't think anyone has paid much attention to Curse yet as a viable option for 25g, mainly due to the fact that it decreases its speed stat. However, I think Curse is a great option for it, for a number of reasons. First, it increases 25g's attack to better abuse its great Galvanized moves. It also helps 25g tank hits from the likes of Kartana (who we're supposed to switch in on) better. Finally, since we have access to Galvanize-boosted priority, the loss of speed doesn't really matter as much as it could have.
• Return is pretty self-explanatory, and is probably our most spammable electric STAB move.
• Horn Leech is our main form of recovery, as well as our Grass STAB. It helps us heal off Life Orb damage as well, which is a bonus. Plus, 25g is now officially a moose, so Horn Leech seems like a given.
• Since Extreme Speed is now banned, our best option is now Quick Attack. It's now the best stab priority move that we can get, but it can zap birds out of the sky before they can even react, and it doesn't become too overpowered when combined with stat boosts. Overall, I think that Quick Attack is a good priority attack for 25g.

Why use Curse instead of Bulk Up? Bulk Up gives it the same boosts without the speed drop.

 

[Warren685]

Moveset Submission

Name: Bulky Curse set
Move 1: Curse
Move 2: Return
Move 3: Horn Leech
Move 4: Quick Attack
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• I don't think anyone has paid much attention to Curse yet as a viable option for 25g, mainly due to the fact that it decreases its speed stat. However, I think Curse is a great option for it, for a number of reasons. First, it increases 25g's attack to better abuse its great Galvanized moves. It also helps 25g tank hits from the likes of Kartana (who we're supposed to switch in on) better. Finally, since we have access to Galvanize-boosted priority, the loss of speed doesn't really matter as much as it could have.
• Return is pretty self-explanatory, and is probably our most spammable electric STAB move.
• Horn Leech is our main form of recovery, as well as our Grass STAB. It helps us heal off Life Orb damage as well, which is a bonus. Plus, 25g is now officially a moose, so Horn Leech seems like a given.
• Since Extreme Speed is now banned, our best option is now Quick Attack. It's now the best stab priority move that we can get, but it can zap birds out of the sky before they can even react, and it doesn't become too overpowered when combined with stat boosts. Overall, I think that Quick Attack is a good priority attack for 25g.

There really is no reason why would we run Curse when Bulk Up exist, why lower our speed, you didn't really explain that to us, I rather not be slower to things that can KO us

 

[hawk1113]

Why use Curse instead of Bulk Up? Bulk Up gives it the same boosts without the speed drop.

There really is no reason why would we run Curse when Bulk Up exist, why lower our speed, you didn't really explain that to us, I rather not be slower to things that can KO us

Not the designer of that set, but I imagine the idea is that Curse is more "balanced" with the speed drop, and also "pro concept" in that we use STAB Galvanize Priority to cheese the speed drop.

However I have to agree - the onus is on TheTankPlays to prove that Bulk Up or Coil would be unbalancing on 25g and I'd be stunned if they are. As I mentioned yesterday I toyed with a Assault Vest set for 25g and we simply don't have the bulk to support more tanky or defensive sets, at least not in a way that dramatically improves any key matchups compared to going raw offense. We also don't really have the offenses to NOT run some way to boost our damage dramatically. I doubt Bulk Up or Coil will ever be more than a gimmick set compared to Swords Dance, so there is no reason to "nerf" those by going for Curse instead.

 

[Roland le preaux]

I want to give my take on some coverage options. In general, I think we should err on the side of giving 25g good coverage to prevent it from becoming a binary attacker with limited and predictable sets. I don't think power level is going to be a significant issue when it comes to coverage moves, largely because 25g will have poor overall coverage to start with. Grass/Electric is resisted by two types, Grass and Dragon, as well as relevant type combinations such as Electric/Poison, Electric/Steel, and Cawmodore's Steel/Flying + Volt Absorb. No type besides Ice (which I'm guessing will be disallowed) patches up these weaknesses easily. So 25g's C&C list is quite vast, and it includes mons found on all team archetypes, such as Cyclohm, Jumbao, Pyroak, and Mega Venusaur on balance and Necturna, Latios, Plasmanta, and Cawmodore on offense. Finally, the fact that Extreme Speed has been disallowed means that we are freer to provide 25g with some wallbreaking power without worry of it becoming an overwhelming sweeper.

Before I get into specific coverage types and moves, I want to state my approach to coverage on an attacker like 25g and what it means for checks and counters. 25g will be an attacker with a serious (and probably healthy) case of four-moveslot-syndrome. Giving it situational coverage to beat certain checks and counters does not automatically boot them off the checks and counters list. I want to use Charizard X and Tapu Fini as an example. Tapu Fini is a great check despite the fact that Charizard X gets Tough Claws-boosted Thunder Punch. Why? Because opportunity cost is relevant in Pokemon. A Charizard X that chooses to run Thunder Punch to muscle through Tapu Fini will be easily worn down because it has probably given up Roost, or it will fail to get through other defensive behemoths like Mega Latias because it has given up Dragon Claw coverage. And it simply can't afford to give up Flare Blitz or Earthquake at all. The point is, it has to sacrifice a lot of power for that supereffective Thunder Punch on Fini. Which means that for any Charizard X set, Tapu Fini is still a relevant check. Any Pokemon that forces sub-optimal moves on an attacker, just to enable it to nab a 2HKO, effectively weakens that attacker and is therefore still a defensive answer to it.

Sorry for the long-winded explanation that most of you already fully understand. I just want to remind everyone of these facts when we are talking about 25g and its potential coverage options. Every coverage option comes at the cost of either Swords Dance, Quick Attack, a powerful Grass move, or a powerful Galvanize Normal move. Each one of those is going to be nearly essential for 25g to function. So let's keep in mind that all of the following suggestions come at a huge price:

Ground-type coverage: Earthquake

• Allows us to pressure Heatran unboosted
• Easily OHKOs Magnezone, Plasmanta, and Mollux unboosted
• 2HKOs Cyclohm after a boost
  • +2 252 Atk Rotom-Mow Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 242-286 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • Keep in mind this is only a 2HKO, when already boosted! Even with a Life Orb. And Cylcohm can easily 2HKO us with a Fire or Ice move.
  • The only way 25g gets a turn of setup and still has enough HP to take on Cyclohm is with great prediction, which should be rewarded.
• Has terrible overall synergy with our Grass/Electric STAB coverage, as all three types are resisted by Grass. This makes us setup fodder for Necturna and gives us no way around Jumbao, Tapu Bulu, Malaconda, and Serperior. Other important checks like the Latis and Cawmodore are simply immune to Ground coverage, making this move useless vs them.
• In response to cbrevan's post, running Groundium Z to OHKO Cyclohm would be extremely niche and severely limit the power of our Galvanize moves by preventing us from running a Life Orb, Magnet, or Normalium Z. Something as frail as Serperior could easily wall a 25g running Groundium Z (252 Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Double-Edge vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 106-126 (34.7 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock). Additionally, Groundium Z would be unnecessary and overkill against many of the mons we want to hit with Ground-type coverage, because most of them have a x4 weakness anyway (Heatran, Mollux, Plasmanta, and Crucibelle).
• Our reward for running this move is very slim, and it will not remove Cyclohm from the list of relevant checks and counters.

Bug-type coverage: Megahorn

• Hits the Latis for good damage on the switch
• Easily OHKOs Malaconda unboosted
• OHKOs Serperior after a boost
• Potentially OHKOs Assault Vest Tangrowth after a boost
  • +2 252 Atk Rotom-Mow Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 364-430 (90 - 106.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
  • This is a reliable OKHO only if rocks are up
  • Physically defensive Tangrowth is only a 2HKO
• Bug type coverage is an extremely poor answer to Grass-types in CAP/OU: Necturna, Tapu Bulu, Jumbao, Kartana, Ferrothorn, Pyroak, Amoongus and Mega Venusaur all have a secondary typing that makes Bug attacks hit neutrally. This means that Megahorn is only effective against 3 out of 11 relevant Grass types.
• Considering that any variation of Latios or Latias outspeeds us and does massive damage or OHKOs with Draco Meteor or Ice Beam, they will still be wonderful offensive checks that can only be brought down by a sup-optimal build combined with excellent prediction.

Fighting-type coverage: Jump Kick

• OHKOs Kartana and Malaconda when boosted
• In conjunction with Life Orb, always OHKOs Chansey after both a boost and Stealth Rock damage
  • +2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 650-767 (92.5 - 109.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • A physical sweeper should have an answer for Chansey in its arsenal, to provide necessary pressure vs stall
• I chose Jump Kick because it somewhat preserves Ferrothorn as a defensive answer. The crash damage will make us very vulnerable to Protect, and between that and Iron Barbs and Life Orb recoil, we will be heavily worn down. Jump Kick is just not a reliable way to take on a Ferrothorn.

That's about it for now. I support giving all of the above coverage options to 25g and disallowing Ice-type coverage and probably also Dragon-type coverage (because it shouldn't be able to answer both Cyclohm and the Latis on a single set). It is necessary for 25g to be a lure for some of its defensive answers if it is going to find a solid place in the metagame, especially because of its fairly low stats, weak offensive typing, and lack of defensive synergy due to its inability to reliably switch-in to Scald.

 

[hawk1113]

Sorry for the long-winded explanation that most of you already fully understand. I just want to remind everyone of these facts when we are talking about 25g and it's potential coverage options. Every coverage option comes at the cost of either Swords Dance, Quick Attack, a powerful Grass move, or a powerful Galvanize Normal move. Each one of those is going to be nearly essential for 25g to function. So let's keep in mind that all of the following suggestions come at a huge price:

I am glad you made this post, because while I agree with cbrevan that we should be cautious and probably disallow Megahorn, U-turn, Earthquake, and High Horsepower, I do think going all the way to 60 BP on ground coverage is a bit much. Stomping Tantrum and Drill Run seem perfectly safe for ground, while other Bug moves of 80 power or less like Leech Life, Steamroller, and X-scissor should also be fine, because to get to +2 and KO with a Z-coverage move means we are giving up both Life Orb/Magnet/Expert Belt/Berries/Normalium-Z Explosion AND giving up either Quick Attack, our strong grass move of choice, or our strong Galvanize Normal of choice to run a coverage move. I also think Fighting coverage is generally fine and will likely be more flavor than useful on 25g, so even going up to Close Combat/Superpower should be uncontroversial as only Ferrothorn is really impacted. Certainly weaker fighting coverage like Brick Break, Sacred Sword, and Jump Kick should be fine.

Because of 4 MSS, I think we should feel free to include some coverage an Ground, Fighting, and Bug coverage provides some niche utility in beating some specific threats of ours without compromising our C&C list too much. As I showed yesterday Rock coverage seems like a poor idea and I also think Steel is bad since it can break fairies like Jumbao, and agree with you that Ice, Dragon, and Fairy make it too trivial to answer some of our dragon-typed C&C list and should be avoided. But having no coverage will make us too predictable and simplistic for sure.

 

[TheTankPlays]

Why use Curse instead of Bulk Up? Bulk Up gives it the same boosts without the speed drop.

There really is no reason why would we run Curse when Bulk Up exist, why lower our speed, you didn't really explain that to us, I rather not be slower to things that can KO us

I didn't think about Bulk Up when I was building this set, but I do think that it may be a better move than curse. My only small fear is that in the right conditions, it might be slightly broken. For example, if 25g came in on something like Toxapex, which Return would easily 2HKO, and it switches out into one of our checks while we use Bulk Up, we're now at +1 +1. Also, if the check is physically oriented, it loses some of it's firepower against us and we're free to use Bulk Up again, becoming a +2 +2 behemoth which would sweep a lot of physical teams out there.
However, that situation is pretty unlikely, and I agree with Hawk that this is a pretty gimmicky set. The main point of the Curse set was to show off another side of 25g that could be useful. I think that a move like Curse or Bulk Up on 25g will open up another dimension to it, giving it the potential to be a bulky sweeper as well as a SD sweeper.

 

[Catalisador]

Moveset Submission 01

Name: special attacker
Move 1: Glare
Move 2: Boomburst
Move 3: Giga Drain
Move 4: Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Fire] / Work Up
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

• Glare is an excelent utility option, providing speed control for the team and pressuring/scaring out the likes of Crucibelle, Greninja and Volkraken;
• Boomburst is a spammable special attack that allows 25g to hit as hard as possible;
• Giga Drain is the Grass STAB of choice. It is a consistent special Grass-type attack that also provides recovery;
• Hidden Power [Ice] can be chosen to hit Landorus-t, Zygarde and Lati@s-mega harder. Alternatively, Hidden Power [Fire] can be used to hit Ferrothorn;
• Work Up can be using to boost CAP25g's mediocre special attack stat and make it a reliable late game cleaner.

Moveset Submission 02

Name: ultimate field control
Move 1: Power Whip / Volt Switch
Move 2: Rapid Spin / Spikes
Move 3: Synthesis
Move 4: Frustration
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Rocky Helmet / Occa Berry
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Judging by CAP25G's threatlist, the list of pokemon it is able to switch into/pressure has a considerable number of pokemon related to hazards (defoggers and spinners like Tornadus-Therian, Tomohawk and Rotom-Wash or hazard setters like Toxapex, Clefable, Greninja and Ferrothorn). This makes it the perfect abuser of either Rapid Spin or Spikes, being able to scare out these aforementioned pokemon and provide utility for the team via controling the hazard game.

• .Power Whip was chosen as it's Grass STAB over Wood Hammer to spare 25g of recoil. As this set focuses on a more support kind of role, keeping health is needed;
• Alternatively, Volt Switch can be used to pivot out and provide momentum;
• Rapid Spin and Spikes provide hzard control (getting rid of them or setupping them), which is an extremely valuable role in the current hazard-heavy metagame;
• Synthesis provides reliable recovery, allowing 25g to continuously provide hazard control on the field;
• Frustration is 25g's Electric STAB of choice for providing great offensive presence without recoil.

Rocky Helmet is the item of choice to chip away at pokemon like Kartana and Jirachi.
Alternatively, Occa Berry allows 25g to survive a Choie Scarf Volkraken's Fire Blast after Stealth Rock and KO them back with Frustration.

252 SpA Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Occa Berry Rotom-Mow: 222-262 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Frustration vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 416-492 (121.6 - 143.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[G-Luke]

I want to give my take on some coverage options. In general, I think we should err on the side of giving 25g good coverage to prevent it from becoming a binary attacker with limited and predictable sets. I don't think power level is going to be a significant issue when it comes to coverage moves, largely because 25g will have poor overall coverage to start with. Grass/Electric is resisted by two types, Grass and Dragon, as well as relevant type combinations such as Electric/Poison, Electric/Steel, and Cawmodore's Steel/Flying + Volt Absorb. No type besides Ice (which I'm guessing will be disallowed) patches up these weaknesses easily. So 25g's C&C list is quite vast, and it includes mons found on all team archetypes, such as Cyclohm, Jumbao, Pyroak, and Mega Venusaur on balance and Necturna, Latios, Plasmanta, and Cawmodore on offense. Finally, the fact that Extreme Speed has been disallowed means that we are freer to provide 25g with some wallbreaking power without worry of it becoming an overwhelming sweeper.

Before I get into specific coverage types and moves, I want to state my approach to coverage on an attacker like 25g and what it means for checks and counters. 25g will be an attacker with a serious (and probably healthy) case of four-moveslot-syndrome. Giving it situational coverage to beat certain checks and counters does not automatically boot them off the checks and counters list. I want to use Charizard X and Tapu Fini as an example. Tapu Fini is a great check despite the fact that Charizard X gets Tough Claws-boosted Thunder Punch. Why? Because opportunity cost is relevant in Pokemon. A Charizard X that chooses to run Thunder Punch to muscle through Tapu Fini will be easily worn down because it has probably given up Roost, or it will fail to get through other defensive behemoths like Mega Latias because it has given up Dragon Claw coverage. And it simply can't afford to give up Flare Blitz or Earthquake at all. The point is, it has to sacrifice a lot of power for that supereffective Thunder Punch on Fini. Which means that for any Charizard X set, Tapu Fini is still a relevant check. Any Pokemon that forces sub-optimal moves on an attacker, just to enable it to nab a 2HKO, effectively weakens that attacker and is therefore still a defensive answer to it.

Sorry for the long-winded explanation that most of you already fully understand. I just want to remind everyone of these facts when we are talking about 25g and it's potential coverage options. Every coverage option comes at the cost of either Swords Dance, Quick Attack, a powerful Grass move, or a powerful Galvanize Normal move. Each one of those is going to be nearly essential for 25g to function. So let's keep in mind that all of the following suggestions come at a huge price:

Ground-type coverage: Earthquake

• Allows us to pressure Heatran unboosted
• Easily OHKOs Magnezone, Plasmanta, and Mollux unboosted
• 2HKOs Cyclohm after a boost
  • +2 252 Atk Rotom-Mow Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 242-286 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • Keep in mind this is only a 2HKO, when already boosted! Even with a Life Orb. And Cylcohm can easily 2HKO us with a Fire or Ice move.
  • The only way 25g gets a turn of setup and still has enough HP to take on Cyclohm is with great prediction, which should be rewarded.
• Has terrible overall synergy with our Grass/Electric STAB coverage, as all three types are resisted by Grass. This makes us setup fodder for Necturna and gives us no way around Jumbao, Tapu Bulu, Malaconda, and Serperior. Other important checks like the Latis and Cawmodore are simply immune to Ground coverage, making this move useless vs them.
• In response to cbrevan's post, running Groundium Z to OHKO Cyclohm would be extremely niche and severely limit the power of our Galvanize moves by preventing us from running a Life Orb, Magnet, or Normalium Z. Something as frail as Serperior could easily wall a 25g running Groundium Z (252 Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Double-Edge vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 106-126 (34.7 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock). Additionally, Groundium Z would be unnecessary and overkill against many of the mons we want to hit with Ground-type coverage, because most of them have a x4 weakness anyway (Heatran, Mollux, Plasmanta, and Crucibelle).
• Our reward for running this move is very slim, and it will not remove Cyclohm from the list of relevant checks and counters.

Bug-type coverage: Megahorn

• Hits the Latis for good damage on the switch
• Easily OHKOs Malaconda unboosted
• OHKOs Serperior after a boost
• Potentially OHKOs Assault Vest Tangrowth after a boost
  • +2 252 Atk Rotom-Mow Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 364-430 (90 - 106.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
  • This is a reliable OKHO only if rocks are up
  • Physically defensive Tangrowth is only a 2HKO
• Bug type coverage is an extremely poor answer to Grass-types in CAP/OU: Necturna, Tapu Bulu, Jumbao, Kartana, Ferrothorn, Pyroak, Amoongus and Mega Venusaur all have a secondary typing that makes Bug attacks hit neutrally. This means that Megahorn is only effective against 3 out of 11 relevant Grass types.
• Considering that any variation of Latios or Latias outspeeds us and does massive damage or OHKOs with Draco Meteor or Ice Beam, they will still be wonderful offensive checks that can only be brought down with a sup-optimal build combined with excellent prediction.

Fighting-type coverage: Jump Kick

• OHKOs Kartana and Malaconda when boosted
• In conjunction with Life Orb, always OHKOs Chansey after both a boost and Stealth Rock damage
  • +2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 650-767 (92.5 - 109.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • A physical sweeper should have an answer for Chansey in its arsenal, to provide necessary pressure vs stall
• I chose Jump Kick because it somewhat preserves Ferrothorn as a defensive answer. The crash damage will make us very vulnerable to Protect, and between that and Iron Barbs and Life Orb recoil, we will be heavily worn down. Jump Kick is just not a reliable way to take on a Ferrothorn.

That's about it for now. I support giving all of the above coverage options to 25g and disallowing Ice-type coverage and probably also Dragon-type coverage (because it shouldn't be able to answer both Cyclohm and the Latis on a single set). It is necessary for 25g to be a lure for some of its defensive answers if it is going to find a solid place in the metagame, especially because of its fairly low stats, weak offensive typing, and lack of defensive synergy due to its inability to reliably switch-in to Scald.

I agree with the overall consensus of this post - Electric STAB does hit hard. But that does not mean we should be skittish to any and all forms of coverage.

Attacks that I support

• Knock Off (consistently proven that it does not hurt anything on the C&C in any significant way other than the Mega Lati@s)
• U-Turn (An offensive Pokemon that is a complete momentum sink to Cawmordore no questions asked is kinda weird)
• Stone Edge (ran some calcs, and other than Pyroak, no other viable or influencial Pokemon's matchup is affected too negativly by this addition.)
• Bulldoze (strongest Ground Attack I will support)
• Megahorn (kinda sorta)

Attacks that are not ok

• Any strong Ground coverage (DON'T. BREAK. CYCLOHM)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Abomasnow Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 315-372 (75 - 88.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery lets not do this pkease.

• Fighting coverage (As much as Ferro is hypothetical "set up bait", it can do a lot of stuff before it goes down)
• Ice coverage (Shouldn't even be a question)

Stuff I am iffy about and require futher discussion

• Poison Coverage, specifically Gunk Shot. (Removes Jumbao from the equation entirely, and makes it a lot harder for Grass types to beat it. Flip side is is kinda bad coverage imo)
• Megahorn (I know I said I was ok but 120 BP attacks that strike this mon's best offensive check super effectively may / may not be the for the best.

 

[Roland le preaux]

Bulldoze would not be viable at all on 25g and I don't think it's relevant to this discussion. Like I said before, Ground-type coverage pairs extremely poorly with Grass/Electric. Bulldoze is very weak and comparable to Rotom-Mow running Hidden Power Ground. A 60 BP move that can't even OHKO common x4 weak Pokemon with Life Orb is not going to be run on a sweeper with such an extreme case of 4MSS.

252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 286-338 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Rotom-Mow Tectonic Rage (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 292-344 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bulldoze is nothing more than a possible flavor move in 25g's final moveset. Even Earthquake itself would be difficult to justify on most 25g sets, given its opportunity cost. I don't think Earthquake really "breaks" Cyclohm. We can't set up on Cylcohm because even uninvested it easily 2HKOs us, and even after setting up we can't OHKO without Tectonic Rage, and Groundium Z would completely neuter us as a sweeper. In order to beat Cylcohm, we have to manage to set up on a turn where we take no significant damage, as we will be eating two Life Orb hits and an Ice Beam during the 2HKO.

0 SpA Cyclohm Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 172-204 (55.6 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That is losing 80% of our health in order to beat Cylcohm, when already boosted! That means if we set up for free we can take out Cyclohm and then die to pretty much any priority user or revenge killer in the tier. And in most games we will never have the opportunity to set up for free.

Also, why should we get Stone Edge to hit Pyroak, but not get Earthquake because of Cyclohm? They are both slower, physically defensive counters. If anything, I'd rather introduce new sweepers that get walled by Pyroak (who has been falling off in viability) than ones that get walled by Cyclohm (who is doing just fine in the meta). I thought new CAPmons are supposed to bring diversity to the metagame?

 

[hawk1113]

I've heard the cries that not enough of my posts have actual real sets, so here is one:

Set Name: Bulky Set-up Sweeper
Move 1: Bulk Up
Move 2: Return
Move 3: Power Whip/Jump Kick
Move 4: Jump Kick/Knock Off/Substitute
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Leftovers/Lum Berry
EVs: 248 HP/ 220 Atk / 40 SpD
Nature: Adamant

• The meta is littered with bulky Flying and Water types such as Skarmory, Toxapex, M-Slowbro, Suicune, Tapu Fini, Gastrodon, and Rotom-W, and 25g's typing is perfect to take advantage of these 'mons with a bulky boosting set.
• Bulk Up is our boosting move of choice. Using Bulk Up over Swords Dance enables 25g to better stomach hits from faster physical 'mons such as M-Pinsir and Kartana and to better use Ferrothorn as set-up bait.
• Return is our primary attacking move. Galvanize boosts this move to insane heights, which is what makes us so threatening to the aforementioned Flying and Electric types. After a few boosts, Return can muscle past many threats in the meta.
• Power Whip is our preferred Grass STAB, and is chosen over Horn Leech to ensure a OHKO (or threat of OHKO) versus Rotom-W and Colossoil.
• Jump Kick fails to nab the KO against Colossoil without a boost, but is crucial in giving us a move that can muscle past heavily damage Kartana as well as threaten walls such as Ferrothorn, and Chansey after we get to +2. It is also able to punish Heatran who switch into us at +1.
• Knock Off is an option to hit Latios, Latias, and Pajantom, who would otherwise wall this set, very hard.
• Substitute is an option if your team handles the aforementioned threats, to protect 25g from status.
• Stat spread was selected as 220 Atk is the minimum required to outpace M-Slowbro's Slack Off, and thus ensure Return is capable of threatening a OHKO (sometimes with Rock Support) against most other relevant water and flying types in the meta. The 40 SpD investment, instead of physical, is to ensure we can soak a hit or two from M-Latios, Ash-Greninja, Offensive Tomohawk, Tornadus, and Zapdos so that they don't end our sweep single-handedly.
• Leftovers is the preferred item, greatly extending our longevity However, Lum Berry can be used to protect against Toxic and, more importantly, random Scald/Will-o-Wisp burns from various Waters and M-Sableye.

So, this set actually has me rethinking coverage on 25g :(. Let's run some calcs...

Calculations!

First, to show my work, here's all the stuff from our target list and how Return does against them at +0:
220+ Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Return vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 326-386 (95 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 212-252 (63.6 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
220+ Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Return vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 254-302 (83.8 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
220+ Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 200-236 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
220+ Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 330-390 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Return vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 176-210 (44.6 - 53.2%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
220+ Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Naviathan: 288-338 (70.2 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
220+ Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 288-338 (69.5 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


All of these except Slowbro and Tapu Fini are incapable of remotely harming us, meaning they'll be forced out even if we don't OHKO them. Not included is Gastrodon, because literally any grass coverage smashes Gastrodon. This is what we wanted 25g to do; come in on passive waters and use its free turn to set up.

A bulky set is nice because it minimizes damage we take in return:
0 SpA Tomohawk Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Rotom-Mow: 105-124 (28.3 - 33.4%) -- 93.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Fidgit Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Rotom-Mow: 102-121 (27.4 - 32.6%) -- 70.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latios-Mega Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Rotom-Mow: 285-336 (76.8 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Rotom-Mow: 190-224 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tangrowth Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Rotom-Mow: 108-128 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Rotom-Mow: 255-300 (68.7 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Boosting is scary with coverage. I'm calcing some stuff at +2, as this also shows how scary coverage is with Swords Dance (sacrifices acknowledged):
+2 220+ Atk Rotom-Mow Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 316-374 (104.9 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 220+ Atk Rotom-Mow Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 350-412 (94 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 220+ Atk Rotom-Mow Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 162-191 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 220+ Atk Rotom-Mow Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 157-185 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 220+ Atk Rotom-Mow Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 406-478 (103.8 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 220+ Atk Rotom-Mow Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 308-364 (87.5 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

This has me seriously reconsidering if Fighting coverage is really fine. Honestly, it has me reconsidering if Knock Off is really fine. Not calced yet is Ground coverage, but with that at least I suspect Drill Run/Stomping Tantrum is fine and it's Earthquake or High Horsepower that should be off-limits.

 

[snake]

I've heard the cries that not enough of my posts have actual real sets, so here is one:

Set Name: Bulky Set-up Sweeper
Move 1: Bulk Up
Move 2: Return / Facade
Move 3: Power Whip / Jump Kick
Move 4: Jump Kick / Knock Off / Substitute
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Leftovers / Lum Berry / Iapapa Berry
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Atk / 40 SpD 248 HP / 196 Atk / 64 Spe
Nature: Adamant

I'm honestly a little skeptical of a bulkier set since you give up on a really, really good speed tier, but I think this spread is a little bit better. 64 Speed outspeeds Modest Specs Volkraken, which is a lot more relevant than Mega Slowbro. I also added Facade so you could soak up a Scald burn and not be useless still. Otherwise, the set is the same.

 

[hawk1113]

I'm honestly a little skeptical of a bulkier set since you give up on a really, really good speed tier, but I think this spread is a little bit better. 64 Speed outspeeds Modest Specs Volkraken, which is a lot more relevant than Mega Slowbro. I also added Facade so you could soak up a Scald burn and not be useless still. Otherwise, the set is the same.

Oo, I dig that. Facade is actually a nasty way to make sure this set demolishes Chansey even without fighting coverage while also absorbing status. I'm going to make some edits. Thanks snake!

 

[Roland le preaux]

I'm honestly a little skeptical of a bulkier set since you give up on a really, really good speed tier, but I think this spread is a little bit better. 64 Speed outspeeds Modest Specs Volkraken, which is a lot more relevant than Mega Slowbro. I also added Facade so you could soak up a Scald burn and not be useless still. Otherwise, the set is the same.

I'm sure you just forgot to change it, but Modest Specs Volkraken (and Adamant Zygarde) outspeeds unless a Jolly nature is run.

Set Name: Bulky Set-up Sweeper
Move 1: Bulk Up
Move 2: Return
Move 3: Power Whip/Jump Kick
Move 4: Jump Kick/Knock Off/Substitute
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Leftovers/Lum Berry
EVs: 248 HP/ 220 Atk / 40 SpD
Nature: Adamant

How is that a sweeper if it lacks both speed and priority? Here's a list of revenge killers that outspeed that set (even with snake_rattler's revisions and a Jolly nature) and OHKO it after Stealth Rock, even when it has +1 Defense:

Outspeed and OHKO

Scarf Volkraken
Specs Tapu Lele
Blacephalon
Mega Crucibelle
Aurumoth
Victini
Alolan Ninetales
Volcarona
Syclant
Kyurem-Black
Plasmanta
Charizard X
Charizard Y
Tornadus-Therian (Z-Move)
Medicham (Fake Out + HJK)
Greninja (Protean Ice Beam)

Most things that wall that set, like Cyclohm, Latios, Mega-Venusaur, Pyroak, and Plasmanta, hit on the special side. So we don't gain much of benefit from the defense boosts. I'm not saying the set could never be viable, but I don't think it's going to turn any coverage moves broken that the wouldn't be broken on a more standard Jolly sweeper set.

I do support the idea of Bulk Up, and I think your set has potential, especially with Substitute + Leftovers, as more of a wallbreaker/stallbreaker set. I think Horn Leech would pair decently well with Substitute, but I get your point about wanting to OHKO Colossoil.

 

[snake]

We've brought up a lot of options since cbrevan's last update, and I think it's time to boil down some of them and figure out whether or not we need them:

list 1. Moves that sufficiently pressure our threatlist

Return
Double-Edge
Body Slam
Boomburst
Quick Attack
Volt Switch
Explosion

Power Whip
Horn Leech

Knock Off

Swords Dance

list 2. Moves that are unnecessary to achieve the goals we've set out

Fake Out
U-turn
Jump Kick, Earthquake, Megahorn, Stone Edge, etc.

Now, I'd first like to show why the first list of moves are the ones that are necessary for CAP25g to deal with its threatlist:

Switch-in

Toxapex: 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 288-342 (95 - 112.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery

Gastrodon: 252 Atk Golem-Alola Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Gastrodon: 924-1092 (217.4 - 256.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rotom-w: 252 Atk Golem-Alola Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Rotom-Wash: 242-288 (79.8 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tapu Fini: 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 368-434 (107.2 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Skarmory: 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 236-282 (70.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tomohawk: 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 320-380 (77.2 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 128-152 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 422-498 (101.9 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Kartana: 4 SpA Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 211-249 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Naviathan: 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Naviathan: 320-380 (78 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Naviathan: 500-590 (121.9 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Clefable: 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 364-430 (92.3 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

Fidgit: +2 252 Atk Golem-Alola Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Fidgit: 313-370 (94.5 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery

Jirachi: +2 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 415-490 (102.9 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ferrothorn: +6 252 Atk Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 263-309 (74.7 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(for Ferro, you might be wondering how it gets to +4/+6, but CAP25g is immune to Leech Seed and Ferrothorn's Knock Off and Power Whip do nothing back)

0 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Golem-Alola: 79-93 (25.5 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Golem-Alola: 53-63 (17.1 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Golem-Alola: 72-85 (23.3 - 27.5%) -- 74.1% chance to 4HKO

Pressure

Mega Crucibelle: 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crucibelle-Mega: 264-312 (74.5 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crucibelle-Mega: 208-246 (58.7 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Diancie: 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Diancie-Mega: 213-252 (88.3 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Diancie-Mega: 169-199 (70.1 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Greninja: 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 230-272 (80.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Stratagem: 252 Atk Golem-Alola Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 482-570 (150.1 - 177.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 297-349 (92.5 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 234-276 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tornadus-Therian: 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 500-590 (167.2 - 197.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 396-468 (132.4 - 156.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Galvanize Golem-Alola Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 326-386 (109 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tomohawk: 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tomohawk: 452-534 (128.7 - 152.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tomohawk: 356-422 (101.4 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Heatran: +2 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 396-466 (122.6 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 198-234 (61.3 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 168-198 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Volkraken: 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 200-236 (58.4 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 396-468 (115.7 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Magnet Galvanize Golem-Alola Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 500-590 (146.1 - 172.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Basically, the only two things we /really/ struggle with at this point are Ferrothorn, which is honestly pretty easy set-up bait, and Kartana, which can't take a Boomburst (and also hates Body Slam paralysis).

The other moves in list 1 I find reasonable on CAP25g, as they are either pro-concept Galvanize-boosted moves, secondary STAB (Horn Leech), and Knock Off, which enables CAP25g to have some sort of counterplay to its switch-ins while not just beating them. Even though Knock Off hits Mega Latios, Pajantom, and Necturna, most times these Pokemon will take reduced damage due to their Mega Stone or Z-Crystal. Moreover, I don't think anyone who's familiar with Necturna would argue against having more counterplay against it.

So, I find the moves in list 1 healthy and pro-concept. However, list 2 is where I start to question whether we really need some of these moves. Here's why.

CAP25g already has a good matchup with offense. With Quick Attack, CAP25g can knock down a good portion of the faster metagame, especially factoring in Electric Terrain and boosting items. Now, with Fake Out combined with Quick Attack, you basically double CAP25g's ability to revenge kill at the cost of a moveslot. I'm not sure whether or not this is healthy or not, but it should be examined before the threat reaches its close.

I also have problems with U-turn. CAP25g, as an Electric-type, should have access to Volt Switch, and I think Volt Switch is a healthy addition to CAP25g. However, U-turn poses an issue with how we've built CAP25g. Over the project, we've taken our Grass typing and concluded that the best way we could differentiate CAP25g from other typings is to use our Grass typing to beat down the Ground-types that beat up our Electric-type moves. This is further illustrated by CAP25g's access to Galvanize. While I realize that U-turn would not supplant a Grass-type move from all of CAP25g's movesets, I find it odd that we want to deviate from this path now that we're here in moves. CAP25g should have to depend on its Grass-type STAB to beat up Ground-types. Additionally, Choice Band U-turn smacks up Tangrowth and Mega Latios, two of our better switch-ins, pretty hard. At least with Knock Off, CAP25g has to stomach the momentum loss. I find Volt Switch sufficient to pivot and lines up better for what CAP25g was built for over this project.

Now for other coverage. While it might seem like CAP25g is rather one-dimensional with its list of moves, I think it's not only rather unique with what it does, but also sufficiently strong without extra coverage. CAP25g has a whole host of physical Electric-type moves to choose from - moves that this metagame are fundamentally not prepared for, as the closest thing we have to this is the rare Z-Wild Charge Tapu Koko and Fusion Bolt from Kyurem-B. A good secondary STAB that breaks through Ground-type Pokemon adds to the strength of this Pokemon. Knock Off allows CAP25g to annoy its counters but not outright beat them. Finally, we have Swords Dance for boosting, Quick Attack for priority, Boomburst for hitting physical walls, and Volt Switch for pivoting. CAP25g really has enough to be doing at this point. I don't really see the point in lumping on coverage for the sake of it. Jump Kick, Earthquake, Megahorn, Stone Edge, etc. all remove beat some of our counters, and I think it's important to preserve that list of counters. It has the tools to break through its threatlist (see list of calcs above), it pressures offensive and defensive teams alike as is, and it has quite the array of sets (Swords Dance, potentially Bulk Up, Physically-biased Mixed, Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Utility, etc.) CAP25g will have a place in the metagame - let's not make it too overbearing.

 

[Pipotchi]

Its already been accepted but apparently I can argue against it still.
CAPG should have its grass STAB toned down. we already know its a monstrous wallbreaker and it pairs nicely with mons like Tapu Koko to take it even further. it will have excellent tools against offense such as Quick Attack and potentially Fake Out. its stabs currently blow away almost all mons and it has happily proven through testing that outside of 1 or 2 pokemon it can wear down a high number of its own defensive checks and succeed.
Im going to compare this mon to Tapus as a mon that should have an uneven dual stab. if you give a mon like this such an incredible Electric arsenal, it doesnt need the most powerful Grass move in the game. just like Tapu Koko, it should have a power move (Electric) and the counterplay is its weak coverage. We already stand out from Koko because our Grass stab hits Ground super effectively. but even Tapu Lele who is in a similar position isnt firing off 120 BP Moonblasts at every Dark type. The Grass stab doesnt need to be rivalling the Electric one, not when this mon already has nice matchup vs everything with just Electric stab- for instance we can 2hko Tapu Bulu switchins with Power Whip? Seems just wrong. We should tone this down to Leaf Blade and Horn Leech levels, even though the option for 120+ dual stab BPs is there we dont have to take it, and this gives us more room to explore more Electric moves and make things like Boomburst and Fake Out more reasonable options.

Leaf Blade and Horn Leech are still going to do what they need to do, they just dont have the same breaking power. Which is counterplay, which is fine. It forces this mon to rely more on its Electric moves which grants more switchin opportunities.
This will also slightly tone down its strength against Zygarde, which imo is a good thing- it can still take it down with a little chip, but we dont have to threaten the ohko on every single mon that isnt explicitly listed as a counter to us.
Pls also note that the vast majority of things on our target list is either 4x weak to grass, covered by Electric stab or niche stuff like defensive Rotom-W.

Here are some anti-Power Whip/pro-Leaf Blade calcs

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 195-230 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 374-442 (104.4 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 432-510 (106.1 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Leaf Blade vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 307-361 (85 - 100%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Leaf Blade vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Krilowatt: 432-510 (97.2 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

When this pokemon needs a Life Orb or Grass boosting item to get a few guaranteed KOs we can feel better about giving it something like Fake Out + Quick Attack for instance, or granting it another good unrelated move like Leech Seed.

 

[Roland le preaux]

A utility set, a Choice Scarf set, or a physically-biased mixed set probably wouldn't be super viable, and Boomburst is honestly a waste of an RM slot. I think snake_rattler's moves list would actually only support one or two viable sets (probably SD and Choice Band paired with Koko) and that better coverage is necessary to make 25g a non-binary attacker.

A utility set cannot make up for terrible bulk, a poor defensive typing, and a vulnerability to Burns and entry hazards that would make it very difficult for 25g to get off any non-attacking moves without being immediately KO'd, crippled by status, or simply set up on by its opponent.

A Choice Scarf set would have an extreme lack of power, failing to revenge kill important sweepers:

Choice Scarf calcs

252 Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aurumoth: 205-243 (56.7 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Double-Edge vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Crucibelle-Mega: 172-204 (48.7 - 57.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kerfluffle: 231-273 (74.7 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 93-110 (31.3 - 37%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Rotom-Mow Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 144-171 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

...and failing to meaningfully chip easy switch-ins, such as every Grass or Dragon-type in the tier. Choice Scarf would also make us set-up bait for Necturna, Kartana, opposing 25g, Cawmodore, etc. and give Cyclohm, Venusaur, Jumbao, and many other defensive checks free recovery against us.

And finally, I think a physically-biased mixed set would be a waste of resources on a mon with a huge case of 4 moveslot syndrome. As I said before:

The thing about Swellow and Salamence is they can build physical OR special, not both at the same time. There is no reason to invest so many resources in having essentially the same electric move but one version is physical and the other version is special. Like 90% of Pokemon have no significant difference between their physical and special bulk. Being able to hit on both sides at once just isn't that important in competitive Pokemon.

To address Boomburst specifically, it's there to hit Kartana and... what else? Why not just run HP Fire so that we can hit Kartana, Ferrothorn, and Cawmodore? I'm sorry, but the days of the SkarmBliss defensive core are over. Mixed attackers are not what they used to be. The ones that are relevant, such as Mega Latios, are only mixed in order to get their desired offensive coverage (Latios would not run EQ if it had access to Earth Power), not because they want to hit on both the physical and special sides.

The idea that "coverage interferes with our C&C list" seems to be being taken to its most extreme possible interpretation: that we should deny coverage moves completely. Not only does that not fit with our starter framework at all (there are zero starters without many relevant and powerful coverage moves), but it also ignores the core concepts of four moveslot syndrome and opportunity cost that are essential to competitive Pokemon.

Literally every single Pokemon in OU/CAP gets strong coverage moves that can take on checks and counters. Charizard gets Thunder Punch and Focus Blast, Pajantom gets Leech Life and Iron Tail, Latios get Earthquake and Shadow Ball, just to name a few. This doesn't mean Rock and Waters don't check Charizard, Dark and Fairies don't check Pajantom, and Steel and Psychics don't check Latios, because they do. This is because:
A) 4MSS and opportunity cost are very real issues that prevent mons like 25g from running all the coverage they need
B) dual typings exist and meaningfully affect type coverage (e.g. Megahorn hits 8 out of 11 Grass-types in CAP/OU neutrally, not super-effectively)
C) lack of STAB is very relevant and limits the power of coverage moves (e.g. a +2 Earthquake from Life Orb 25g can't OKHO Cyclohm)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 315-372 (75 - 88.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I'm not trying to disagree with you on everything snake_rattler, but I do think that 25g needs a real movepool to function as a sweeper or wallbreaker in the tier. If 25g doesn't even have the option to lure some of its checks, it is going to be handicapped in a way that literally no other Pokemon is in the metagame. Boomburst, Body Slam, etc may seem like fun options, but they aren't going to be regularly run on 25g and they definitely shouldn't be given in place of legitimate RMs like Earthquake, Megahorn, or Jump Kick.

 

[G-Luke]

Its already been accepted but apparently I can argue against it still.
CAPG should have its grass STAB toned down. we already know its a monstrous wallbreaker and it pairs nicely with mons like Tapu Koko to take it even further. it will have excellent tools against offense such as Quick Attack and potentially Fake Out. its stabs currently blow away almost all mons and it has happily proven through testing that outside of 1 or 2 pokemon it can wear down a high number of its own defensive checks and succeed.
Im going to compare this mon to Tapus as a mon that should have an uneven dual stab. if you give a mon like this such an incredible Electric arsenal, it doesnt need the most powerful Grass move in the game. just like Tapu Koko, it should have a power move (Electric) and the counterplay is its weak coverage. We already stand out from Koko because our Grass stab hits Ground super effectively. but even Tapu Lele who is in a similar position isnt firing off 120 BP Moonblasts at every Dark type. The Grass stab doesnt need to be rivalling the Electric one, not when this mon already has nice matchup vs everything with just Electric stab- for instance we can 2hko Tapu Bulu switchins with Power Whip? Seems just wrong. We should tone this down to Leaf Blade and Horn Leech levels, even though the option for 120+ dual stab BPs is there we dont have to take it, and this gives us more room to explore more Electric moves and make things like Boomburst and Fake Out more reasonable options.

Leaf Blade and Horn Leech are still going to do what they need to do, they just dont have the same breaking power. Which is counterplay, which is fine. It forces this mon to rely more on its Electric moves which grants more switchin opportunities.
This will also slightly tone down its strength against Zygarde, which imo is a good thing- it can still take it down with a little chip, but we dont have to threaten the ohko on every single mon that isnt explicitly listed as a counter to us.
Pls also note that the vast majority of things on our target list is either 4x weak to grass, covered by Electric stab or niche stuff like defensive Rotom-W.

Here are some anti-Power Whip/pro-Leaf Blade calcs

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 195-230 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 374-442 (104.4 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Colossoil: 432-510 (106.1 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Leaf Blade vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 307-361 (85 - 100%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Leaf Blade vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Krilowatt: 432-510 (97.2 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

When this pokemon needs a Life Orb or Grass boosting item to get a few guaranteed KOs we can feel better about giving it something like Fake Out + Quick Attack for instance, or granting it another good unrelated move like Leech Seed.

All of these calcs, well probably other than the Bulu calc, actually show why high power Grass STABs are needed. CAPg is supposed to be an Electric type physical attacker that thanks to Grass STAB puts pressure on Ground types. It was already stated that CAPg needs Whip/Hammer to beat Zygarde and Landorus-T, which Blade can't accomplish. Also Blade shouldn't be in any way make Leech Seed more risky to grant on CAPg, and Fake Out is controversial regardless of what Grass STAB it has. High power STABs like these are held in check due to our modest attack stat and quite frankly bad coverage. But that leads me into another argument.


Also in replying to Ronald's post, I agree that this extreme skirting around coverage is unwarranted, BUT coverage moves such as Earthquake and Jump Kick just SHOULD not be given! I cannot stress this enough that Ground coverage is a big no no due it simply ransacking the C&C list. Especially Ground coverage. Ronald's reasoning for Earthquake is the stupidest thing I have ever seen, since apparently doing 88% damage to a defensive C&C is suddenly sound reasoning to recommend it? Defensive checks switchin and force us out, but according to this, it should only be able to revengekill us. Now, you might be thinking, doesn't Stone Edge and potentially strong Poison coverage achieve the same thing? Does high damage to mons that are on our C&C? The difference with that is that Stone Edge and Poi/coverage are rather niche options, that you play a healthy amount of penance running these moves instead of Grass STAB/Priority/Synthesis/any utility we get. Stone Edge only impacts one viable member of our C&C, while Poi/coverage removes one and eases the matchup against another. But the big thing is the outweighed risk. Sure, CAPg can run said hypothetical Gunk Shot for example on the last slot, but then its left with overall pretty bad coverage and doesnt really tilt the matchup of any mons on the viability rankings other than that particular mon in our favour, that we did not have a pisitive match up against anyways. But Earthquake is readily sound coverage with little drawbacks, since while Ground immunities are prominent, only ONE actually can switch in without any fear. Ground + Electric coverage is also good enough for people to actually forgo Grass STAB and just run Ground coverage, similar to how Heatran normally forgoes Steel STAB for Earth Power or Gen 6 Tomohawk runs mono Earth Power. And thats what seperates Stone Edge and Gunk Shot/Poison Jab from Earthquake. Its a lot more risk in dropping our last slot for these coverage options, and dropping Grass STAB would just not be good at all. But Earthquake shows that not only can it outshine the other options in our fourth slot, it is potent enough to actually drop our STAB altogether.

Tl; dr - do not be afraid to give coverage, but said coverage should not be so good that we can forgo our own STAB for it with small amounts of risk.

 

[Pipotchi]

All of these calcs, well probably other than the Bulu calc, actually show why high power Grass STABs are needed. CAPg is supposed to be an Electric type physical attacker that thanks to Grass STAB puts pressure on Ground types. It was already stated that CAPg needs Whip/Hammer to beat Zygarde and Landorus-T, which Blade can't accomplish. Also Blade shouldn't be in any way make Leech Seed more risky to grant on CAPg, and Fake Out is controversial regardless of what Grass STAB it has.

It beats them.

+2 252 Atk Rotom-Mow Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 420-495 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Rotom-Mow Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 289-342 (75.6 - 89.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Note that Landorus-T and Zygarde arent even on our list of mons to beat.. These mons are still pressured by sets that will be common such as SD Grassium Z and just regular SD. So I think we should not give it a braindead STAB move that allows us to beat everything with no chip damage or itemization required. I would consider Tapu Koko a mon that can get through Landorus, because it can HP Ice it for a huge chunk which it achieves after forcing it through hazards into an attack once. This is a pokemon that can also get through Landorus or Zygarde, mons with no recovery, by chipping them just once, or using a special set with a fully invested HP Ice now that Boomburst is available. As for Scarf Lando, we're never going to have a particularly great matchup against it, but in general those 2 mons need to be wary of any set 25G is running.

Leech Seed and Fake Out have no relation with Power Whip but its a case of not giving a mon too many strong tools at the same time.

 

[Roland le preaux]

Earthquake is readily sound coverage with little drawbacks, since while Ground immunities are prominent, only ONE actually can switch in without any fear. Ground + Electric coverage is also good enough for people to actually forgo Grass STAB and just run Ground coverage, similar to how Heatran normally forgoes Steel STAB for Earth Power or Gen 6 Tomohawk runs mono Earth Power.

Ground/Electric is actually mediocre offensive coverage? Both are resisted by Grass, and the main type that stops Electric in its tracks (Ground) is rarely paired with types that cause it to take SE damage from Ground attacks. Also, I can think of Gliscor, Landorus, Cawmodore, Latios, and Latias as ground immunities (that's 5) that can switch in to Electric without fear... More importantly, there are a million Electric resists that can switch in to Ground without fear, namely any Grass-type. Also a non-STAB Earthquake coming off 106 Attack is not nearly as impressive in CAP as you think it is. Electric-immune Pokemon like Zygarde, Colossoil, and Voodoom can easily switch in on it. Even Cyclohm survives a super-effective Earthquake, boosted by Life Orb, after rocks, after a Swords Dance, and deals 60% damage in return with Ice Beam, uninvested. Assuming Cyclohm's teammate didn't let 25g set up for free, our Grassmon's probably dead at this point. And that 25g set gave up one of four pretty critical moves for that Ground coverage, lol.

I don't understand why people are attacking Earthquake but fine with Stone Edge. As I see it, both moves each mostly just affect one member of our checks and counters (EQ hits Cyclohm, Stone Edge nails Pyroak). And in my opinion, Pyroak needs the help way more than Cyclohm does in the current meta. Regardless, Earthquake is not a hill I want to die on. I'd rather 25g get some good coverage at all than any specific coverage (for reasons that I've stated before). I still think Megahorn is a perfectly balanced coverage move that is gated by the fact that it only hits a couple Grass-types super-effectively and the fact that we don't outspeed Latios and Latias, meaning they will always be checks to 25g sweeps, even if they aren't free switch-ins.


Moveset Submission

Name: Banded Lure
Move 1: Power Whip
Move 2: Double-Edge / Volt Switch
Move 3: Quick Attack / Volt Switch
Move 4: Megahorn / Jump Kick / Poison Jab
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 Att / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Power Whip is a necessary Grass STAB to threaten the Ground types that naturally want to check an Electric-based attacker.
• Double-Edge is a powerful Galvanize-boosted move that smacks everything that doesn't resist Electric very hard.
• Quick Attack can pick off weakened foes or OHKO frail opponents weak to Electric, such as Dragon Dance Gyarados.
• Volt Switch can be run in place of either Electric-type STAB to pivot out of defensive switch-ins such as Cyclohm and Pyroak.
• Megahorn allows 25g to lure in Latios or Latias and skewer certain Grass-types such as Tangrowth and Malaconda.
• Jump Kick punishes switch-ins such as Kartana, Ferrothorn, Cawmodore, and Voodoom, while also threatening to 2HKO Chansey.
• Poison Jab nails Tapu Bulu and Jumbao for fatal damage, while also hitting Pyroak and other Grass-types quite hard.
• Choice Band powers up 25g's attacking moves, enabling it to wallbreak.
• Galvanize boosts the power of Double-Edge and Quick Attack and turns them into Electric-type moves with STAB.
• A Jolly Nature is essential to outspeed common CAPmons like Krilowatt and Fidgit.
• Full investment in attack and speed EVs makes 25g hit as hard and fast as possible.

I gave up on Earthquake due to fierce opposition. I'm not that stubborn, lol.

Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 408-482 (135.5 - 160.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 290-342 (79.6 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 216-256 (53.5 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Malaconda: 1028-1212 (236.8 - 279.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 135-159 (52.1 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 216-256 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 226-266 (87.2 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 208-246 (86.3 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 113-134 (46.6 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Jump Kick vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 374-442 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 404-476 (117.7 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jumbao: 468-552 (120.9 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 158-188 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[G-Luke]

Ground/Electric is actually mediocre offensive coverage? Both are resisted by Grass, and the main type that stops Electric in its tracks (Ground) is rarely paired with types that cause it to take SE damage from Ground attacks. Also, I can think of Gliscor, Landorus, Cawmodore, Latios, and Latias as ground immunities (that's 5) that can switch in to Electric without fear... More importantly, there are a million Electric resists that can switch in to Ground without fear, namely any Grass-type. Also a non-STAB Earthquake coming off 106 Attack is not nearly as impressive in CAP as you think it is. Electric-immune Pokemon like Zygarde, Colossoil, and Voodoom can easily switch in on it. Even Cyclohm survives a super-effective Earthquake, boosted by Life Orb, after rocks, after a Swords Dance, and deals 60% damage in return with Ice Beam, uninvested. Assuming Cyclohm's teammate didn't let 25g set up for free, our Grassmon's probably dead at this point. And that 25g set gave up one of four pretty critical moves for that Ground coverage, lol.

I don't understand why people are attacking Earthquake but fine with Stone Edge. As I see it, both moves each mostly just affect one member of our checks and counters (EQ hits Cyclohm, Stone Edge nails Pyroak). And in my opinion, Pyroak needs the help way more than Cyclohm does in the current meta. Regardless, Earthquake is not a hill I want to die on. I'd rather 25g get some good coverage at all than any specific coverage (for reasons that I've stated before). I still think Megahorn is a perfectly balanced coverage move that is gated by the fact that it only hits a couple Grass-types super-effectively and the fact that we don't outspeed Latios and Latias, meaning they will always be checks to 25g sweeps, even if they aren't free switch-ins.


Moveset Submission

Name: Banded Lure
Move 1: Power Whip
Move 2: Double-Edge / Volt Switch
Move 3: Quick Attack / Volt Switch
Move 4: Megahorn / Jump Kick / Poison Jab
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 Att / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Power Whip is a necessary Grass STAB to threaten the Ground types that naturally want to check an Electric-based attacker.
• Double-Edge is a powerful Galvanize-boosted move that smacks everything that doesn't resist Electric very hard.
• Quick Attack can pick off weakened foes or OHKO frail opponents weak to Electric, such as Dragon Dance Gyarados.
• Volt Switch can be run in place of either Electric-type STAB to pivot out of defensive switch-ins such as Colossoil and Pyroak.
• Megahorn allows 25g to lure in Latios or Latias and skewer certain Grass-types such as Tangrowth and Malaconda.
• Jump Kick punishes switch-ins such as Kartana, Ferrothorn, Cawmodore, and Voodoom, while also threatening to 2HKO Chansey.
• Poison Jab nails Tapu Bulu and Jumbao for fatal damage, while also hitting Pyroak and other Grass-types quite hard.
• Choice Band powers up 25g's attacking moves, enabling it to wallbreak.
• Galvanize boosts the power of Double-Edge and Quick Attack and turns them into Electric-type moves with STAB.
• A Jolly Nature is essential to outspeed common CAPmons like Krilowatt and Fidgit.
• Full investment in attack and speed EVs makes 25g hit as hard and fast as possible.

I gave up on Earthquake due to fierce opposition. I'm not that stubborn, lol.

Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 408-482 (135.5 - 160.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 290-342 (79.6 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 216-256 (53.5 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Malaconda: 1028-1212 (236.8 - 279.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 135-159 (52.1 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 216-256 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 226-266 (87.2 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 208-246 (86.3 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 113-134 (46.6 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Jump Kick vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 374-442 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 404-476 (117.7 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jumbao: 468-552 (120.9 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 158-188 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Electric + Ground is still miles better coverage wise then Electric + Grass, and other than the Pokémon that naturally check us regardless we lose out on hitting Landorus-T. The fact that it has MUCH better neutral coverage than dual STAB would allow it to drop Grass STAB altogether. And why Stone Edge is not as threatening as Earthquake was already stated in the post you quoted, since using Stone Edge allows you to beat Pyroak, but at the cost of giving up viable priority or utility in that slot. But Earthquake is so good you can do that with much less cost.

 

[Deck Knight]

There's only two coverage moves I support for 25g: Poison Jab and Brick Break.

For Poison Jab we have a number of Fairy types, especially Jumbao and Tapu Bulu that fare well against out STABs. Poison Jab is a discreet option with very specific matchups that doesn't blow uo coverage. Grass/Electric/Poison is scarcely better than Grass/Electric itself with a boosting move.

Given 4x Electric resistance and Koko's mediocre SpA, we're a pretty good switch in to it. One of Koko's major sets is the HO Dual Screen set. Enter Brick Break, which tears down its screens. Additionally, the Fighting coverage is a mid-power option that makes us slightly faster at tearing down Ferrothorn and doesn't mess with Steel counters too much without Swords Dance and a Z-Crystal backing it.

I'd prefer Brick Break in all instances of Jump Kick. Will add in calcs later if I can.