CAP 25 - Part 9 - CAP 25g Moveset Discussion

[Karoshi]

For Coverage, I agree with the general consensus that ground coverage is not good. While I doubt it would replace grass coverage entirely as STAB is still a thing, it would be added to practically every set. It also helps against Mon that we are suppose to be checked/countered by. Ground Coverage should not be allowed.

Electric/Grass is poor coverage, mainly because they compete with each other over SE on Water types. I am fine with the weaker moves or moves with poor additional coverage to cover some of our options a bit. Poison Jab and Brick Break were already mentioned, and I agree with those being allowed. Brick Break is weak onto itself and doesn't make or break our Mon, while Poison Jab lets us not be defenseless against Grass Types without changing our more significant match ups.

I would be normally fine with Knock Off as a coverage move, but it makes it so we can punish defensive Mon for switching in and gives us amazing neutral coverage with only a few Mon resisting all three.We should be iffy with okaying it for the sake of balance. I am fine with Bug Coverage, though a lot of it is not congruent with our goals. Megahorn is iffy as it hits like a truck. While I am personally against it, it should be fine if it does make it onto it. U-Turn should not be allowed as it is just a better version of Volt Switch for it (Coverage, No ground immunity, Physical). The one bug move I will push on it having is Leech Life. It has the same power as X-Scissor, does less then Horn Leech on a neutral hit as it lacks STAB, and helps CAP25g remain healthy to preform its job.

 

[TheTankPlays]

I know that the topic is on coverage moves right now but there is another move that I'd like to bring to the table: Pursuit.
I think that Pursuit would be nice on 25g because firstly, 25g has amazing potential to revenge kill things with priority STAB (which narrows down options if the opponent wants to keep their pokemon alive) and also, said STAB priority move can be nullified by Ground types. These options increase the probability of a switch, during which Pursuit bops the fleeing pokemon. Another advantage I see in using Pursuit is that 25g has severe 4-moveslot-syndrome, which gives Pursuit that little unpredictability that it needs to be effective (as well as it's own small niche.)
Anyway, this is probably a little gimmicky but I think it may be a move worth noting in the long run.

 

[Warren685]

Electric/Grass is poor coverage, mainly because they compete with each other over SE on Water types. I am fine with the weaker moves or moves with poor additional coverage to cover some of our options a bit. Poison Jab and Brick Break were already mentioned, and I agree with those being allowed. Brick Break is weak onto itself and doesn't make or break our Mon, while Poison Jab lets us not be defenseless against Grass Types without changing our more significant match ups.

in case you haven't notice we have Strong possible options for grass and electric like Galvanize Return and Horn leech if you haven't seen the movesets also "Electric/Grass is poor coverage, mainly because they compete with each other over SE on Water types. " that is hardy a reason on how that's poor coverage, it's really flawed in fact. We are Grass/Elec, our grass attacks can hit ground types when our elec attacks couldn't.

Coverage for Electric + Grass:
Super Effective: Flying, Ground, Rock, Water
Neutral: Bug, Dark, Electric, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Ghost, Ice, Normal, Poison, Psychic, Steel
Resists: Dragon, Grass
Immunities: None

 

[Pipotchi]

I want to add some thoughts on coverage! But just want to say beforehand, this is the order in which i value our checks and counters:


1. Cyclohm: this is the hardest stop to the mon's stab moves. Through STAB and sheer power, the mon can actually beat out almost every other "counter", but I hold Cyclohm sacred for stopping absolutely everything- and I think this should be the "i absolutely need to stop 25g" pokemon available to put on your team.

2. Cawmodore, Pyroak, Jumbao, Mega Latias: These are good/common mons in the CAP metagame that I dont mind 25g being able to cripple, but not without effort. They all should ideally avoid being guaranteed ohkod by any move, and that perhaps includes SD boosted attacks, making them checks to every set still.

2.5 Mega Latios: boy this mon is stretched defensively lol. I would like it to have something similar to the matchup of the above mons, but its hard to account for Hasty vs Naive sets. If we can preserve it like the above mons then lets shoot for it.

3. Tangrowth, Megazard X, Magnezone, Kyub, Plasmanta: these mons are slightly less relevant in the cap metagame. However, they are good checks. Similar to above, it doesnt matter if 25g can cripple these, and a few of the mons from this list its okay to let drop as checks to certain sets.

4. Pajantom, Zygarde, Landorus: these mons are broken by stab moves or guaranteed coverage alike, but they dont need to be disregarded as helpful splashable checks to certain sets. the only important thing to perhaps maintain is not letting them be ohkod by a coverage move without setup. As long as they maintain their position as shaky checks Im fine with this.


that being said, here's the moves that I like:

Knock Off- Imo one of the best coverage moves we can give it, its got universal utility and can therefore see usage, but it doesnt turn any of the matchups drastically on their head. The mons most hit hardest from our list are Latis, which are itemless and outspeed, taking under 50% from an itemless Knock Off, and Pajantom who will take a large chunk but avoid being ohkod.

Brick Break- already mentioned, its a move to beat Ferrothorn faster to force it out before it sets up 3 layers of spikes. It causes some issues to Magnezone and Kyurem-B which I'm fine letting drop to a non-standard set as mentioned above.

Acrobatics- a niche option to hit Grass types harder, but requires an item drop to make work. This could find a niche use thanks to common pairings with Tapu Koko (electric seed) which also ties in with potential access to good support moves like Synthesis and Leech Seed. The item drop and less offensive nature of this set means Tangrowth, Pyroak and Jumbao all remain as checks, and are able to take an Acrobatics and pivot out.

Zen Headbutt- this move targets Fidgit in particular, since Fidgit without a poison move is a relatively safe switch-in. It can be powered up to Psychium-Z to threaten it, as well as things like Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur, Plasmanta.



moves i dont like:

Earthquake- Like i said, i think Cyclohm should be the hardest answer to this mon for the reasons above, and EQ/Groundium threatens that too much.

Poison Jab- Its ohkoing Jumbao which I value a lot vs this mon, and being way too annoying to Pyroak, chipping it heavily and potentially poisoning it allowing it to be beaten through rocks in the future. It also causes problems for Tangrowth and can poison Cyclohm.

Megahorn/X-Scissor- I wanted it at first, but it hits Mega Latios too hard for my liking. Does at least 50% itemless, and this can be boosted by LO and also the fast that Mega Latios is often running Hasty means we can do enough to KO it with a QA next turn before it can recover. Not sure if I like that.

 

[Roland le preaux]

1. Cyclohm

2. Cawmodore, Pyroak, Jumbao, Mega Latias

2.5 Mega Latios

3. Tangrowth, Megazard X, Magnezone, Kyub, Plasmanta

4. Pajantom, Zygarde, Landorus

I want to reply to Pipotchi's well-organized post, specifically his C&C tiers, and then state my opinions on some coverage options I haven't discussed yet.

I understand and accept that everyone wants Cyclohm to be 25g's hardest stop. I was rooting for Pyroak to have this role, because I think that would diversify the meta more and I think I still support disallowing Stone Edge so that Pyroak can more or less join Cylohm as an "S tier" answer to 25g. I think Rock Slide is fine, because a +2 Continental Crush based off Rock Slide is pretty pitiful overall and it would not be a viable option.

The thing on Pipotchi's list I disagree with the most is the placement of Mega Latios. It is only a half step away from Mega Latias and it is placed way too high overall. Why should a wallbreaker that runs a Hasty nature be a guaranteed safe switch in to a physical sweeper? That is just not a necessary role for Latios to function. Latios can already take on a +2 25g and stop its sweep cold with a Draco Meteor. It will be an extremely reliable revenge killer that laughs off boosted Quick Attacks. It will also be a great answer to any 25g Choice-locked into a STAB move. That is enough, especially for an (extremely) offensive check.

I think Brick Break is a false option and wouldn't really stand a chance of being run. Choice Band Brick Break doesn't reliably 2HKO Ferrothorn or Chansey after rocks (and it doesn't ever 2HKO Cawmodore or OHKO Kartana after rocks) and that means that even in an ideal situation, with great prediction, it fails to do its job. Brick Break would be a flavor move... it's just not strong enough to compete for a slot on a Pokemon with such a strong case of 4MSS.

Brick Break calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Brick Break vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 282-332 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 162-192 (46 - 54.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 85-101 (35.1 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 170-200 (65.3 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Brick Break vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 489-577 (69.6 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 281-333 (79.8 - 94.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cawmodore: 147-174 (60.7 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I feel similarly about X-Scissor, Leech Life, and Lunge. I'm not opposed to them but I don't see them as real options. As I've argued before, 25g is going to have an extreme reliance on its core moves, and mediocre Bug-type coverage will not see the light of day. I like Megahorn because it is a strong neutral hit on CAP/OU Grass-types that could possibly have some use on a Band or SD set. But +2 Life Orb X-Scissor doesn't even take out AV Tangrowth after rocks... why would anyone run it? It's not like we outspeed the Latis and could 2HKO them if we catch them on the switch; they still force us out and recover off the damage. And as far as Bug attacks being a strong neutral hit on most Grass types...80 BP is not really going to accomplish that.

X-Scissor calcs

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 317-374 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 156-185 (60.2 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Necturna: 198-233 (73.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 237-281 (78.7 - 93.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Latias: 213-252 (58.6 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Zen Headbutt I like, it gives us a reason to be outspeeding Fidgit. It also helps us muscle through Mega-Venusaur, and therefore it could help us be a viable lure on teams that need to eliminate that threat. Maybe to clear the way for Specs Koko or even Zeraora to sweep.

Knock Off is nice and will probably be popular because Necturna is everywhere. I wouldn't mind Crunch either, in a meta full of Z-Crystals and Mega Stones it could be a viable alternative.

Acrobatics... I just don't see that being a thing. When was the last time anyone saw Brave Bird on Decidueye? And at least that move doesn't require it to give up an item. I think this is another one of those "pretend" coverage moves that could never actually justify a slot.

Probably this is my last post on 25g coverage, hopefully I haven't talked too much. Anyway I enjoyed the discussion everyone!

 

[david0895]

Zen Headbutt: agree, is a nice tech to deal with Mega-Venusaur and other Poison-types, but without having a free kill since that 25g will need of a boost

Knock Off: unsure, not really problematic looking the damage but it pressure Cawmodore, since it will be more risky to setup without the berry

Brick Break: unsure, I don't get the utility outside of destroying screens and killing ferrothorn, but it doesn't seem too bad

 

[cbrevan]

Yo. I feel like the bulk of discussion in this thread has occurred, so I'll be disallowing certain moves and types of moves as well as increasing the number of approved sets.

Starting with the disallowed moves, I've decided to disallow Explosion and Self Destruct as a result of how hard they hit with Galvanize. They are by far the most powerful attacks 25g has access to, but the main problem lies with how they can drastically increase the damage ceiling of Swords Dance sets. Normalium Z Explosion gives Swords Dance sets a way to power through key resists to our STAB moves such as Jumbao and the Mega Latis, while still retaining the utility of a 200 or 250 BP super nuke. While there is a great oppurtunity cost that comes with self fainting moves, the difficulty in accounting for moves that can power through checks leads me to believe disallowing Explosion and Self Destruct is the correct course of action.

Physical Fighting-type coverage above 75 BP will be disallowed. This includes Sky Upper Cut, Sacred Sword, and every other physical Fighting move that is at or above Jump Kick levels of power. Brick Break is most likely the weakest we can go without making our Fighting-type coverage unviable, and is only relevant in a handful of matchups, primarily against Ferrothorn, Kyurem-B, and Magnezone. While this does conflict with our check list, Fighting-coverage has been supported in several movesets in order to pressure Ferrothorn. Brick Break would also be sup optimal on a Swords Dance set, while neccessary for the Bulk Up set posted in order for it to be able to pressure Ferrothorn without being excessively worn down.

I've also decided to disallow physical Bug-type coverage above 60 BP. This is done to ensure that checks such as the Mega Latis as well as Grass-types such as Tangrowth will not be broken through easily by 25g at +2. 60 BP was chosen at the cut off because it was identified early on that U-turn was unneeded with access to Volt Switch, and the next jump in BP would be the 80 BP moves such as Leech Life, Lunge, and X-scissor. Given that the last three moves are powerful enough to exert pressure on Mega Latios unboosted, they were disallowed.

I'm also disallowing physical Rock-type coverage above 50 BP. This is done in order to preserve Pyroak as a hard check to 25g. Z Continental Crush from Stone Edge and Rock Slide all have the ability to OHKO Pyroak at +2 with some prior damage. In addition to swinging the Pyroak matchup, these coverage moves would also allow 25g to power through some soft checks it wouldn't be able to otherwise, such as Pajantom. I selected 50 BP as the cut off point because 60 BP Rock-type moves have the same base power Continental Crush as Rock Slide.

Now, onto the approved movesets.

Name: Swords Dance + Quick Attack
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Quick Attack
Move 3: Power Whip / Horn Leech / Knock Off
Move 4: Return / Body Slam / Double-Edge
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Grassium Z / Magnet
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

This is simply a minor edit to the earlier posted Swords Dance set posted in the thread. I added Knock Of as a slashed move due to feedback in the thread. Knock Off helps wear down walls and gives 25g an option for preventing Necturna and Pajantom from potentially beating it after a Swords Dance boost.

Set Name: Bulky Set-up Sweeper
Move 1: Bulk Up
Move 2: Return / Facade
Move 3: Power Whip / Brick Break
Move 4: Brick Break / Knock Off / Substitute
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Leftovers / Iapapa Berry
EVs: 248 HP / 196 Atk / 64 Spe
Nature: Adamant

This is snake_rattler's edit of hawk1113's set with the substitution of Brick Break over Jump Kick. Unlike the above set, this trades priority for easier set up. Of particular note is the inclusion of Facade in order to safely play around Scald burns.

While these two movesets are the only two I'm adding to the approved moveset list, I encourage people to go back and look at the movesets I summarized and those that have been posted since then, and to comment on them as they feel necessary. It is clear from the direction of this thread that we want to pursue set up options with 25g, which is why these two sets are being approved. However, sets centered around utility options such as entry hazard, status, etc. have not seen much discussion. The current plan is to wrap up discussion in a few day's time, so now is the time to voice support for any movesets not yet approved or concern for any movesets brought up. If you believe a move should be on 25g and it has not already been approved, now is the time to propose or discuss an already proposed moveset with it.

 

[Roland le preaux]

Moveset Submission

Name: Banded Lure Choice Band Attacker
Move 1: Power Whip
Move 2: Double-Edge / Volt Switch
Move 3: Quick Attack / Volt Switch
Move 4: Megahorn / Jump Kick / Poison Jab / Knock Off / Zen Headbutt
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 252 Att / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Power Whip is a necessary Grass STAB to threaten the Ground types that naturally want to check an Electric-based attacker.
• Double-Edge is a powerful Galvanize-boosted move that smacks everything that doesn't resist Electric very hard.
• Quick Attack can pick off weakened foes or OHKO frail opponents weak to Electric, such as Dragon Dance Gyarados.
• Volt Switch can be run in place of either Electric-type STAB to pivot out of defensive switch-ins such as Cyclohm and Pyroak.
• Megahorn allows 25g to lure in Latios or Latias and skewer certain Grass-types such as Tangrowth and Malaconda.
• Jump Kick punishes switch-ins such as Kartana, Ferrothorn, Cawmodore, and Voodoom, while also threatening to 2HKO Chansey.
• Poison Jab nails Tapu Bulu and Jumbao for fatal damage, while also hitting Pyroak, Tangrowth, and other Grass-types quite hard.
• Knock Off deals ~80% to Latios on the switch and provides utility against counters such as Cyclohm, removing their Leftovers.
• Zen Headbutt 2HKOs Mega Venusaur and Plasmanta and is slightly more reliable than Power Whip against Fidgit.
• Choice Band powers up 25g's attacking moves, enabling it to wallbreak.
• Galvanize boosts the power of Double-Edge and Quick Attack and turns them into Electric-type moves with STAB.
• A Jolly Nature is essential to outspeed common CAPmons like Krilowatt and Fidgit.
• Full investment in attack and speed EVs makes 25g hit as hard and fast as possible.

Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 404-476 (117.7 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jumbao: 468-552 (120.9 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 158-188 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 222-262 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 178-210 (49 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Rotom-Mow Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta: 196-232 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm editing my own moveset submission lol, to get rid of the disallowed moves and introduce some other options. I'm disappointed with the direction we've taken for 25'g movepool, but I've really had fun getting to debate with everyone and accept the consensus is against strong coverage. I don't think Brick Break is powerful enough to be viable with Choice Band, but maybe someone can include it on a Swords Dance set.

 

[david0895]

Poison Jab seems good because it does less damage on non-Grass checks/counters, but with Brick Break, it creates the choose-your-checks effect:

- Brick Break removes Ferro, Magnezone and Kyurem-B
- Poison Jab removes Jumbao, Pyroak and Tangrowth

I'm unsure about this so I need more explanation on this move

 

[Sabbio]

- Brick Break removes Ferro, Magnezone and Kyurem-B

Not really...

calcs

252 Atk Rotom-Mow Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 110-130 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Rotom-Mow Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 144-170 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Rotom-Mow Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 126-150 (44.6 - 53.1%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO

The damage is pretty pitiful, but it does help us break stuff like Ferro, maybe with SD Support or Fight Z. Ferrothorn can't really do much back besides laying down hazards on us either.

Ferrothorn calc

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (112 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Mow: 54-64 (22.4 - 26.5%) -- 21.8% chance to 4HKO

Zone can't really do much back either besides firing off (heh) HP Fire, as its STAB moves do laughable amounts of damage.

Magnezone calcs

252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 44-52 (14.2 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO

252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 79-93 (25.5 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Idk about Jab, It's very nice to be able to break through AV Tang and Jumbao as they are generally the Electric-type answers in a lot of teams, but maybe it's too nice for 25g. It does nothing to AV Tang if not at +2 or with a life orb boost though:

AV Tang calcs

252 Atk Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 124-146 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- 47.7% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 161-190 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 317-374 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Whilst coming really close to OHKOing max HP Jumbao even without a life orb boost.

 

[david0895]

Not really...

calcs

252 Atk Rotom-Mow Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 110-130 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Rotom-Mow Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 144-170 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Rotom-Mow Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 126-150 (44.6 - 53.1%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO

The damage is pretty pitiful, but it does help us break stuff like Ferro, maybe with SD Support or Fight Z. Ferrothorn can't really do much back besides laying down hazards on us either.

Ferrothorn calc

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (112 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Mow: 54-64 (22.4 - 26.5%) -- 21.8% chance to 4HKO

Zone can't really do much back either besides firing off (heh) HP Fire, as its STAB moves do laughable amounts of damage.

Magnezone calcs

252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 44-52 (14.2 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO

252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow: 79-93 (25.5 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Idk about Jab, It's very nice to be able to break through AV Tang and Jumbao as they are generally the Electric-type answers in a lot of teams, but maybe it's too nice for 25g. It does nothing to AV Tang if not at +2 or with a life orb boost though:

AV Tang calcs

252 Atk Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 124-146 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- 47.7% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 161-190 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 317-374 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Whilst coming really close to OHKOing max HP Jumbao even without a life orb boost.

Obviously I was counting the SD+Life Orb boosts.

calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jumbao: 406-478 (124.9 - 147%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 250-296 (62 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 276-325 (62.3 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 328-387 (116.3 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 281-333 (79.8 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 369-437 (94.3 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

While this create a 4MSS both of these moves can fear the opponent limiting its counterplay

 

[Roland le preaux]

Anyone have thoughts about granting 25g access to Sleep Powder? Now that we've pretty much settled on coverage restrictions, I have been thinking about possible utility moves. While Sleep Power isn't necessarily pro-concept, it isn't anti-concept either. It would at least provide an mediocre status-inducing move, and at best it could add an interesting option for Z-Sleep Powder sweeping sets. Given that we have limited coverage and a sizable C&C list, I don't think it would be overpowered to get us to +1 Speed with an unreliable Z-move.

Moveset Submission

Name: Grassium Z Sweeper
Move 1: Sleep Powder
Move 2: Power Whip
Move 3: Return / Double Edge
Move 4: Swords Dance
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Grassium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Z-Sleep Powder can put a check or counter to sleep and boost 25g's speed, enabling a sweep.
• Power Whip and Return or Double Edge make up a dual STAB combo.
• Swords Dance allows 25g to boost its offensive power and muscle through resists and physical walls.
• Grassium Z can also be used against more defensive teams for a hard-hitting Bloom Doom.

 

[S. Court]

Anyone have thoughts about granting 25g access to Sleep Powder? Now that we've pretty much settled on coverage restrictions, I have been thinking about possible utility moves. While Sleep Power isn't necessarily pro-concept, it isn't anti-concept either. It would at least provide an mediocre status-inducing move, and at best it could add an interesting option for Z-Sleep Powder sweeping sets. Given that we have limited coverage and a sizable C&C list, I don't think it would be overpowered to get us to +1 Speed with an unreliable Z-move.

Moveset Submission

Name: Grassium Z Sweeper
Move 1: Sleep Powder
Move 2: Power Whip
Move 3: Return / Double Edge
Move 4: Swords Dance
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Grassium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Z-Sleep Powder can put a check or counter to sleep and boost 25g's speed, enabling a sweep.
• Power Whip and Return or Double Edge make up a dual STAB combo.
• Swords Dance allows 25g to boost its offensive power and muscle through resists and physical walls.
• Grassium Z can also be used against more defensive teams for a hard-hitting Bloom Doom.

I was talking with people in Discord and I think this set in particular is concerning for a reason: Sticky Web support.

Under Sticky Web, the revenge killing options will be quite limited to:

1. Flying-types or Levitate mons with more than 106 of base Speed (and honestly, right now I can't think in a good revenge killer in this category... Scarf Heat Wave Tornadus-T?)
2. Strong priority (Ice Shard comes into mind, but Choice Band Weavile or Life Orb Ice Shard Syclant can only 2HKO it)
3. Hawlucha after Unburden is activated (and considering it usually uses Electric Terrain to activate it, it makes everything even worse because it boost Return and also we have this: 0 Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Return vs. +1 152 HP / 0 Def Electric Seed Hawlucha in Electric Terrain: 354-416 (105.6 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
4. Keeping alive CAP25-g's counters like Cawmodore (The most reasonable option, probably)

And if Sticky Web would be limited to Hyper Offense, I'd probably agree with this suggest, but let's keep in mind CAP25-w will receive Sticky Web as well, letting this move can be used outside Hyper Offense archetypes, which could increase more the problem.

Sure, there is the downside you can't use Electric Terrain support in your team because it nulifies any sleep attempt, but honestly I don't see major downside even considering that. I think it'd be probably too much for CAP25-g

 

[faithviolet]

Moveset Submission

Name: Boomburst Facilitator
Move 1: Boomburst
Move 2: Power Whip
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Work Up / Knock Off / Quick Attack
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Grassium Z / Choice Scarf / Life Orb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty/Naive

This set aims at using the power of Galvanize Boomburst to its fullest extent. Either Scarfed or with a grass-type nuke, 25g with this set can send out extremely powerful boombursts, while using the combination of grass STAB and ice-type coverage to destroy any ground-type that tries to ruin its day. Due to 25g's extremely weak special attack stat at 77, Ice Beam's main use comes from it dealing with with things it is 4x super effective against, mainly ground-types that could otherwise switch in against a predicted electric-type attack. Jumbao is not 2HKOd by Ice Beam, nor is Cyclohm after leftovers recovery. Essentially this set sacrifices some of the power of its grass STAB and priority in exchange for a stronger boomburst and coverage that best complements electric stab.

Ice Beam Calcs

252 SpA Abomasnow Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jumbao: 136-160 (41.8 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Abomasnow Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cyclohm: 186-220 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Abomasnow Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 104-124 (25.7 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Abomasnow Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios-Mega: 120-142 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Abomasnow Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 98-116 (26.9 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Abomasnow Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore: 88-104 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Abomasnow Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-Black: 85-100 (21.7 - 25.5%) -- 1.1% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Abomasnow Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 128-152 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO\

252 SpA Abomasnow Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 336-396 (87.9 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Abomasnow Ice Beam vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 292-344 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Abomasnow Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 152 SpD Gliscor: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Abomasnow Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 316-376 (88.2 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

[Roland le preaux]

I was talking with people in Discord and I think this set in particular is concerning for a reason: Sticky Web support.

Under Sticky Web, the revenge killing options will be quite limited to:

1. Flying-types or Levitate mons with more than 106 of base Speed (and honestly, right now I can't think in a good revenge killer in this category... Scarf Heat Wave Tornadus-T?)
2. Strong priority (Ice Shard comes into mind, but Choice Band Weavile or Life Orb Ice Shard Syclant can only 2HKO it)
3. Hawlucha after Unburden is activated (and considering it usually uses Electric Terrain to activate it, it makes everything even worse because it boost Return and also we have this: 0 Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Return vs. +1 152 HP / 0 Def Electric Seed Hawlucha in Electric Terrain: 354-416 (105.6 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
4. Keeping alive CAP25-g's counters like Cawmodore (The most reasonable option, probably)

And if Sticky Web would be limited to Hyper Offense, I'd probably agree with this suggest, but let's keep in mind CAP25-w will receive Sticky Web as well, letting this move can be used outside Hyper Offense archetypes, which could increase more the problem.

Sure, there is the downside you can't use Electric Terrain support in your team because it nulifies any sleep attempt, but honestly I don't see major downside even considering that. I think it'd be probably too much for CAP25-g

I mean, an offensive pokemon is always going to be more effective with sticky webs up. But Latios, Cawmodore, Jumbao, Necturna, Serperior, Bisharp, Plasmanta, Kartana, Kyurem-Black, and Magnezone are all checks and counters to this set (even with web support) that are viable on offense teams.

Edit: cbrevan, has Ground-type coverage intentionally not been disallowed? It seems based on the discussion that most of the community (myself not included, lol) is against Earthquake, High Horsepower, etc. Although if the plan is to put Ground moves up for a vote, I'm excited to at least have the chance to vote yes.

Edit2: Never mind that last edit, lol.

 

[S. Court]

I mean, an offensive pokemon is always going to be more effective with sticky webs up. But Latios, Cawmodore, Jumbao, Necturna, Serperior, Bisharp, Plasmanta, Kartana, Kyurem-Black, and Magnezone are all checks and counters to this set (even with web support) that are viable on offense teams.

Latios is hardly seen in this meta iirc, now, if you talk about Mega Latios is a more probable choice, but still is a 2HKO after rocks with a +2 Return and at least Mega Latios is using Draco Meteor (not sure how common is in this meta) it won't be able to KO it.

Cawmodore will stop it, that's for sure

Wish Jumbao will be able to take it down, but you mentioned offense, so I guess they'll use Choice Scarf of Specs variants, and Scarf variants have only a slight chance to OHKO with Drought-boosted Flame Burst (252 SpA Jumbao Flame Burst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow in Sun: 270-318 (87.3 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO ) and will be 2HKOed by a +2 Return. Drought Specs Flame Burst can beat it so point partially granted.

Necturna is 2HKO by a +2 Return, and even after Shell Smash/Shift Gear, it won't outspeed it if Webs is in play. It can OHKO with Z-Phantom Force thought so I guess it's valid.

Leaf Storm + Hidden Power Fire Serperior has a decent chance to KO it (27.1 - 32% + 67.3 - 79.6% = 94.4 - 111.6%) so point granted, I guess, but how much do we see Serperior in this meta? I can't stay for sure.

Bisharp is hardly seen.

Plasmanta can beat it, but I'm not sure about how much people uses it in this meta.

Choice Scarf Kartana will be outspeed under Webs and a +2 Double Edge will 2HKO it before it can 2HKO it with Sacred Sword, I'm not sure of effective is Swords Dance set in this metagame but Z-Sacred Sword can beat it. Choice Band has the same problems than Choice Scarf variants.

Kyurem-B can beat it, point granted again.

Magnezone has a good chance of being 2HKOed by a +2 Return (+2 0 Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 123-144 (43.6 - 51%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock) and is guaranteed by Double-Edge and not even Specs Hidden Power Fire can OHKO it, so it's shaky answer.

There are some good answers in offense, but some of them are shaky at its best, some other are not that common, or some of them have to use some options I'm not sure how common are (Mega Latios) so I'm not sure at all if Z-Sleep Powder is a reasonable enough option

 

[G-Luke]

Latios is hardly seen in this meta iirc, now, if you talk about Mega Latios is a more probable choice, but still is a 2HKO after rocks with a +2 Return and at least Mega Latios is using Draco Meteor (not sure how common is in this meta) it won't be able to KO it.

Cawmodore will stop it, that's for sure

Wish Jumbao will be able to take it down, but you mentioned offense, so I guess they'll use Choice Scarf of Specs variants, and Scarf variants have only a slight chance to OHKO with Drought-boosted Flame Burst (252 SpA Jumbao Flame Burst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Mow in Sun: 270-318 (87.3 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO ) and will be 2HKOed by a +2 Return. Drought Specs Flame Burst can beat it so point partially granted.

Necturna is 2HKO by a +2 Return, and even after Shell Smash/Shift Gear, it won't outspeed it if Webs is in play. It can OHKO with Z-Phantom Force thought so I guess it's valid.

Leaf Storm + Hidden Power Fire Serperior has a decent chance to KO it (27.1 - 32% + 67.3 - 79.6% = 94.4 - 111.6%) so point granted, I guess, but how much do we see Serperior in this meta? I can't stay for sure.

Bisharp is hardly seen.

Plasmanta can beat it, but I'm not sure about how much people uses it in this meta.

Choice Scarf Kartana will be outspeed under Webs and a +2 Double Edge will 2HKO it before it can 2HKO it with Sacred Sword, I'm not sure of effective is Swords Dance set in this metagame but Z-Sacred Sword can beat it. Choice Band has the same problems than Choice Scarf variants.

Kyurem-B can beat it, point granted again.

Magnezone has a good chance of being 2HKOed by a +2 Return (+2 0 Atk Galvanize Rotom-Mow Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 123-144 (43.6 - 51%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock) and is guaranteed by Double-Edge and not even Specs Hidden Power Fire can OHKO it, so it's shaky answer.

There are some good answers in offense, but some of them are shaky at its best, some other are not that common, or some of them have to use some options I'm not sure how common are (Mega Latios) so I'm not sure at all if Z-Sleep Powder is a reasonable enough option

I don't see much issue about the speed boosting aspect. We will most likely gain Electric Terrain, which does the same thing. I think the real question we should be asking is giving CAPg a reliable means of sleep induction healthy for the meta.

 

[S. Court]

I don't see much issue about the speed boosting aspect. We will most likely gain Electric Terrain, which does the same thing. I think the real question we should be asking is giving CAPg a reliable means of sleep induction healthy for the meta.

I have no troubles with Z-Electric Terrain (funny enough, I was going to suggest it) but Z-Sleep Powder is a different story because that gives a free setup oportunity, so you have a Speed boost AND a Swords Dance boost almost for free, which is more dangerous that what Electric Terrain offers

 

[Frostbiyt]

Edit: cbrevan, has Ground-type coverage intentionally not been disallowed? It seems based on the discussion that most of the community (myself not included, lol) is against Earthquake, High Horsepower, etc. Although if the plan is to put Ground moves up for a vote, I'm excited to at least have the chance to vote yes.

Disallowed Moves: Extreme Speed, Physical Ground Coverage over 60 BP, Competitive Special Attack boosting status moves aside from Work Up, Physical Fighting-type coverage over 75 BP, Physical Bug-type coverage over 60 BP, Physical Rock-type coverage over 50 BP

 

[Catalisador]

Moveset Submission

Name: Grassium Z Sweeper
Move 1: Sleep Powder
Move 2: Power Whip
Move 3: Return / Double Edge
Move 4: Swords Dance
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Grassium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

I do not think 25g should have access to Z-Sleep Powder. On top of the speed boost, it gives it a free turn to setup swords dance as well, severely limiting the amount of checks for this pokemon.

Moveset Submission

Name: Boomburst Facilitator
Move 1: Boomburst
Move 2: Power Whip
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Work Up / Knock Off / Quick Attack
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Grassium Z / Choice Scarf / Life Orb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty/Naive

I'm not sure about Ice Beam + Work Up. Doesn't break through Cyclohm and Jumbao after a Special Attack boost? I'm a bit iffy about that.


I might be a bit late for the discussion, but as for coverage, I agree strong Bug- and Ground-type coverage should be disallowed.
Fighting-type coverage sounds ok. Poison-type, however, is a bit controversial - I guess it'll come down to if we want Jumbao, Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu to be counters for this pokemon.
Knock Off is a good option, providing great neutral coverage and amazing utility, specially vs more passive pokemon.

 

[Deck Knight]

I think one more set ought to do it ro round things out:

Name: Synthesis Set
Move 1: Synthesis
Move 2: Wood Hammer / Power Whip
Move 3: Double-Edge / Return
Move 4: Brick Break / Smart Strike / Iron Tail
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Leftovers / Steelium-Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Synthesis provides reliable healing, especially in Sun, and pretty much all Rain and Sand Pokemon want to stay away from 25g's STABs.
• Wood Hammer provides 100% accuracy at the cost of recoil, Power Whip provides strong STAB with no recoil but imperfect accuracy.
• Double-Edge maximizes power on a set that has Synthesis for backup healing, while Return is still powerful but offers more longevity.
• Final move goes to coverage, with Brick Break providing more damage against Ferrothorn, Kartana, and Kyurem-B while the Steel moves target Jumbao, Mega Crucibelle, and Syclant. Steelium-Z is particularly usable with Iron Tail to score a OHKO on offensive Jumbao.
• Leftovers for more longevity, Steelium for that strong hit on Fairies or neutral hit on opposing grass types.

Simple set for more longevity that uses HP recovery to fuel some stronger/more reliable moves.

ANd one edit:

Set Name: Bulky Set-up Sweeper
Move 1: Bulk Up
Move 2: Return / Facade / Crush Claw
Move 3: Power Whip / Brick Break
Move 4: Brick Break / Knock Off / Substitute
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Leftovers / Iapapa Berry
EVs: 248 HP / 196 Atk / 64 Spe
Nature: Adamant

The reason Crush Claw works so well on a Bulk Up set is the additional time afforded by the additional bulk. It can wear down opponents with fairly consistent Defense drops, not unlike Kitsunoh's Shadow Strike. Crush Claw even has slightly more power than Shadow Strike factoring in Galvanize.

 

[Gale Wings Golurk]

I'd like to take this opportunity to suggest secret power.

Moveset Submission

Name: Status inflictor
Move 1: Secret Power
Move 2: Power Whip
Move 3: Quick Attack / Encore /
Move 4: Knock Off / Swords Dance / Synthesis
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb/ Grassium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe /4 Def
Nature: Jolly

Think about it. 25g makes surprisingly good use of terrain; two of them boost its stabs, and misty gives it breathing room against the dragons that wall it and space to boost its middling attack against toxics, wisps, and scalds.

Psy terrain: Spe drop
Misty: SpA drop
Elec: Paralyze
Grassy: Sleep
No terrain: Paralyze

Some of you might be concerned about that 30% sleep chance, but many mons in CAP OU are immune to electric, and thus secret power without even being weak to grass, while grass type checks can more than likely wake up and recover/kill 25g before it can muster lethal damage. Plus, it's only a 30% chance, way less than sleep powder. Finally, running this move denies 25g the use of quick attack or return/double edge.

Galvanize boosts its strength to usable levels, and the 30% drop rates and statuses make great use of cyclohm's shield dust ability. Actually, many of 25g's C&C still beat it even with the drops and statuses secret power can inflict. In more neutral matchups though, secret power can give AoA sets(and sweeping sets before they're ready) some better early and mid-game utility, and a bit extra staying power for chip damage.

As for the submitted set, Power Whip is used over Wood Hammer for better synergy with life orb, and more HP gives you more chances to roll for status and drops throughout the match. Quick Attack pressures squishies like stratagem and Ash-ninja, while Encore gives further utility against defensive mons without "entirely" beating ferrothorn and solidifies this set as a debilitator, as does knock off. SD can be used for role compression, but without strong electric stab, it's much less powerful. Synthesis lets you stick around and keep up with tanks' longevity to pester them.
Grassium gives big-body damage since this set is meant to be paired with terrain.

Edit: minor spelling and more accurate set name. Removed psychic terrain misinformation.

 

[Okamu]

I'd like to take this opportunity to suggest secret power.

Think about it. 25g makes surprisingly good use of terrain; two of them boost its stabs, while psy terrain lets 25g keep its boosts against tomahawk and misty gives it breathing room against the dragons that wall it and space to boost its middling attack against toxics, wisps, and scalds.

Quick Correction: Haze targets all Pokémon on the field. Thus, Psychic Terrain does not protect against it when it is boosted by Prankster.

 

[Roland le preaux]

Moveset Submission

Name: SD Lure

Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Return / Double-Edge
Move 3: Power Whip / Horn Leech
Move 4: Iron Head / Zen Headbutt
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb / Steelium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Swords Dance boosts our attack in order to slam the Grass and Dragon types that we want to hit with Iron Head.
• Return is a strong and reliable STAB move. Double-Edge has more power at the cost of recoil.
• Power Whip is a powerful but innacurate STAB move, while Horn Leech lacks power but provides recovery, especially at +2.
• Iron Head takes on Jumbao, Tapu Bulu, and Kyurem.
• Zen Headbutt takes out Plasmanta and usually takes out Mega Venusaur at +2 with a Life Orb boost.
• Steelium Z gives us a strong neutral hit on many Grass and Dragon-types, such as Tangrowth and Latios, while preserving Cyclohm, Pyroak, and Ferrothorn as important checks.
• Maximum Attack and Speed and a Jolly nature are ideal for a physical sweeper.

calcs:

Iron Head

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Jumbao: 312-369 (80.6 - 95.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jumbao: 403-476 (104.1 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 348-411 (123.8 - 146.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 395-465 (101 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zen Headbutt

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 307-361 (84.5 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Plasmanta: 338-400 (129 - 152.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rotom-Mow Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Fidgit: 364-429 (92.3 - 108.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Corkscrew Crash

+2 252 Atk Rotom-Mow Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Jumbao: 480-566 (124 - 146.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Rotom-Mow Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 268-316 (95.3 - 112.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Rotom-Mow Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 304-358 (77.7 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Rotom-Mow Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Necturna: 300-354 (111.5 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Rotom-Mow Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Malaconda: 456-537 (105 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+4 252 Atk Rotom-Mow Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 364-429 (90 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Edit: I would like to state that I am officially against Ice Beam. I thought we settled pretty early on that Ice coverage messed with almost out entire Checks and Counters list. It hits both the types that resist our dual STABs, Grass and Dragon, super-effectively and completely patches up our weaknesses as a Pokemon. Boomburst + Ice Beam would make us a 106 Speed Electric mon with nearly perfect offensive coverage, a role that conflicts with our specialist concept and makes 25g unnecessarily difficult to switch into.

Ice Beam

252 SpA Life Orb Rotom-Mow Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 437-515 (114.3 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Rotom-Mow Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cyclohm: 242-286 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Rotom-Mow Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 190-224 (67.6 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Rotom-Mow Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 166-198 (55.1 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Rotom-Mow Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 217-256 (83.4 - 98.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Rotom-Mow Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 48 SpD Tangrowth: 289-341 (71.7 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[cbrevan]

Discussion has died down a ton over the last couple of days, so this will be our 48 hour warning before we wrap this thread up. 48 hours was chosen as the cut off time to allow people to get responses into all three threads if they desire. Use this time to make any final suggestions, may they be edits of existing movesets, comments on approved movesets, or new movesets. Do keep in mind that discussion is closing, so focus on discussing what has already brought up since we most likely not have the time to look at new moves/movesets in depth.

To quickly summarize where we are right now, 25g's most prominent role is that of a Swords Dance sweeper that makes use of Galvanize boosted Quick Attack but has limited coverage options. Other sets include a bulkier Bulk Up set that trades sweeping ability for ease of set up, a Mixed set that utilized Boomburst, and a simple all out attacking set that allows 25g to act as a pivot. Right now we're exploring utility options and other roles that can either take advantage of Galvanize or complement the Swords Dance set.

Since my last post, one of the movesets discussed is a Swords Dance + Sleep Powder set.
Name: Grassium Z Sweeper
Move 1: Sleep Powder
Move 2: Power Whip
Move 3: Return / Double Edge
Move 4: Swords Dance
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Grassium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
This set does a fairly good job of portraying what Sleep Powder would allow, as the move gives 25g the ability to cripple checks such as Cyclohm and the Mega Latis. While the set does trade Sleep Powder for Quick Attack, Z Sleep Powder allows 25g to continue to target the offense matchup as it provides a +1 speed boost. Given how we wish to keep Cyclohm and the Mega Latis as reliable checks to 25g, I've decided to disallow Sleep Powder and other sleep inducing moves to prevent 25g from being able to punish these checks.

The other move I feel like we should discuss is Ice Beam.
Name: Boomburst Facilitator
Move 1: Boomburst
Move 2: Power Whip
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Work Up / Knock Off / Quick Attack
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Grassium Z / Choice Scarf / Life Orb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty/Naive
This is a mixed set that uses Boomburst + Ice Beam to achieve solid neutral coverage. I've seen the move argued for and against, with some pointing out that its balanced coming from a 77 based attack, while others think Ice Beam makes a special attack set too viable alongside Swords Dance sets. I'm interested in hearing what people have to say on the move since there isn't a consensus on it yet.

Now onto general moveset feedback:
Name: Synthesis Set
Move 1: Synthesis
Move 2: Wood Hammer / Power Whip
Move 3: Double-Edge / Return
Move 4: Brick Break / Smart Strike / Iron Tail
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Leftovers / Steelium-Z
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
This set is unapproved. Inclusion of Steel coverage, specifically Iron Tail, is what is holding it back currently. Do we want 25g to be able to break through Jumbao with ease? Its also worth noting that it provides a relevant z-move against Pajantom and Necturna, something STAB moves fail to do.

Name: Lure
Move 1: Swords Dance
Move 2: Return / Double-Edge
Move 3: Power Whip / Horn Leech
Move 4: Iron Head / Zen Headbutt
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb / Steelium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
This set is unapproved. Similar to above Synthesis set, do we want 25g to be able to pressure Jumbao, Pajantom, Plasmanta, Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur? Do we need the coverage, specifically coverage that targets Pokemon we want as checks? This question goes towards Iron Head, Iron Tail, Zen Headbutt, and Poison Jab.

Name: Status inflictor
Move 1: Secret Power
Move 2: Power Whip
Move 3: Quick Attack / Encore
Move 4: Knock Off / Swords Dance / Synthesis
Ability: Galvanize
Item: Life Orb/ Grassium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe /4 Def
Nature: Jolly
This set is unapproved. By far the most interesting set I've seen proposed. Secret Power is in all likelihood a gimmick since Body Slam has been approved and the conditions to trigger sleep are terrain dependent and unreliable. What I'm concerned about is Encore and the potential effects it could have on various matchups. Disruption moves are powerful, especially on a set up sweeper, so I'd like us to examine it in light of other stratagies before it is approved.