CAP 26 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment

[Deck Knight]

What roles do these moves best support/encourage?

The few examples we do have of these moves being successfully used is on Pokemon with substantial defensive ability, or in the case of CM Slowbro and BH Dialga, Pokemon that can afford to take a hit while they boost SpA to turn Future Sight/Doom Desire into a breaker move. "The Slows" in general also use RegenVest and Slowking can shuffle, so there is also some sense that pivoting is effective with those sets in those metagames.

The discussion I have observed has leaned towards a pivoting role being the best role for a FS/DD mon, but are there other roles that can be done well thanks to these delayed moves? What options do these moves open up/limit? Is either move better suited to a role than the other?

Steel and Psychic are both somewhat questionable offensive types in themselves. The most notable quality of the powerful psychics is less that they are Psychic and more that MegaZam, MegaCham, and Lele have ridiculous offensive potential, and Lele really only has it on its Psychic moves. That leaves M-Latios as the more tanky prominent Psychic type, and even it has 160 Base SpA / 110 Base Spe so... Yeah, the Psychic mons can dish out a hit.

Contrast Steel, which just doesn't have that many hardcore offensive breaking threats (Mega Mawile, formerly Mega Meta), and honestly Steel being resisted by Fire/Water/Electric/Steel gives it a tougher time breaking through, especially in CAP Meta. Magearna I suppose counts, but most of that is Fleur Cannon and its crazy coverage.

So really, neither move is inherently better suited to one role versus another, but the nature of Pokemon with the typing skew perceptions more than they otherwise would. Future Sight does have one significant advantage offensively in that Psychic Terrain will buff it, but the other Tapus can counter that the turn it would hit. I don't think requiring Lele as a go-to partner is all that wise.


What tools work best with delayed attack moves?

To fully answer the question, it's not so much they are delayed attack moves, they have 3 unique qualities.

1. Powerful Z-Move
These are the strongest special-attack based Z-Moves available for these types (barring Psycho Boost), with a much more significant power differential on the Steel consideration. Notably, these Z-Moves can be used in the interim after the delay initiation, so obviously against neutral targets this presents an issue. More importantly, even though Doom Desire and Future Sight can't be active at the same time, nothing stops you from using the Z-Move from one while the other is in play. Psychic covers one of Steel's weaknesses (Fighting), Steel doesn't cover any of Psychic's weaknesses, but it does nuke Fairy types.

If you are staying in for the duration, special attack boosting has been used by Slowbro and BH Dialga to add another layer to the offense, and obviously boosts to SpA also benefit the Z-Moves. If you can successfully begin DD/FS, remove what is in front of you with a Z-Move, and then boost on the final turn the overall damage done is immense.

Relevant Tools: Steelium-Z / Psychium-Z, SpA Boosts.

2. Lag Time
The most important strategic quality of these moves is that you use them, and have one turn of "lag time," a turn where your opponent doesn't suffer an immediate consequence for switching and your Pokemon is open to attack, "Protect," or pivot. This one turn delay presents an opportunity and a threat. The opportunity is that it makes it a lot easier to switch or slow pivot to a Pokemon that can set up knowing an opponent can't switch into Doom Desire or Future Sight on the second turn as a response. Chiefly this benefits Dark, Fighting, and Dragon types weak to Fairies, though obviously Rock or Ice types will avoid it as well, they just aren't as common. Many of CAP's fighting types, especially Tomohawk and Arghonaut (And Mollux/Crucibelle) do not want to eat a super-effective Future Sight on top of another attack. There are also the sacrifice options which are a more permanent way to buy a turn for a teammate to set up with DD/FS waiting in the wings.

Phazing moves provide a potentially huge risk/reward payoff if the shuffle goes your way. You can simultaneously switch in an opponent that can't take a DD/FS next turn and put yourself in a better position. Alternatively if you get a bad matchup you can just switch out or Protect to cause some residual damage before switching out. Phazing can also be used on the turn immediately before the DD/FS hit to try and shuffle in a target. This becomes more reliable in the mid to late game if you can isolate and remove all the targets that could otherwise tank the DD/FS hit. Then your shuffle can take out the last bit of their defense that is preventing you from claiming the win. For example shuffling in a Tomohawk right before a Future Sight hits can devastate their momentum if Future Sight can take the KO.

Partial trapping could also be interesting as it forces a situation where the target can be held until the damaging turn either by using it before Doom Desire / Future Sight or in the turn afterward. If used before, the Pokemon then has to survive the DD/FS turn as well so it could be troublesome. These delayed-attack moves really are not kind to anything insufficiently sturdy. This strategy seems plausible but more questionable. A turn used for these could be a turn you are boosting SpA, and you'll end up doing more damage if you can stick it out the next turn.

One could argue that two-turn evasive attacks could also fit here, but locking yourself into something like Bounce/Dig/Dive/Phantom Force and telegraphing the two types you'll hit with next turn is probably not an ideal use. Each of these moves also uses Attack rather than DD/FS's Special Attack, so it probably stretches stats far too much to be considered.

Relevant Tools: "Protect" moves, Phazing moves, slow U-turn/Volt Switch/Parting Shot, sacrifice moves, double switches.

3. Breakthrough Damage
What Doom Desire and Future Sight offer is a window of opportunity to break through difficult opponents on the turn the moves hit, and also arguably the turn afterward if they survive. Priority is good to note here, because it usually beats out healing options (all except Triage Rev's Drain Punch/Moonlight or Prankster Roost from Tomohawk, really) and leads to the further ability to overwhelm. Moves that can block the opponent from healing this damage are also good follow-ups. Pursuit also warrants a mention here as it can also provide a finishing blow to a greatly weakened Regenerator Pokemon, which are not uncommon. I know it is somewhat of a polljump to mention it specifically, but nothing really does what it does and it is mechanically important to breaking through. It does suffer from being based on Attack rather than Special Attack and stretches stats, however.

Relevant Tools: Priority, recovery denial moves, Pursuit.

What can we do with that momentum- and how can these added tools incentivize the moves without overshadowing them?

Slow pivoting, priority, and sacrifice moves all have their place on various Pokemon, but they tend not to be all that effective in and of themselves. The best pivots tend to be fast because their intent is to chip away to make way for a sweep, not tank a hit to let a frailer ally in. They are in many ways already good support tools, but few Pokemon focus on them as a primary role. Mega-Scizor might be the exception when it comes to slow pivoting, though defensive Cyclohm with Volt Switch can act similarly. These categories of moves (in these uses) seem to inherently lend themselves to support, not primacy.

 

[Warren685]

What roles do these moves best support/encourage?
Well, I want to put out that a role that wouldn't work with the concept is a trapper. While trapping our opponent to take a FS/DD is nice that's not really what we want. What we want is to let our opponent retain their freedom to switch so that we can set up checkmate situations. It would force them to make a hard choice of maybe losing a Pokemon or having one take heavy damage from the delayed attacks which fulfill our win-win situation quota for the concept.

 

[Sereg]

Relevant Tools: "Protect" moves, slow U-turn/Volt Switch/Parting Shot, sacrifice moves, double switches.

I would add abilities that activate on switches.

What roles do these moves best support/encourage?
Well, I want to put out that a role that wouldn't work with the concept is a trapper. While trapping our opponent to take a FS/DD is nice that's not really what we want. What we want is to let our opponent retain their freedom to switch so that we can set up checkmate situations. It would force them to make a hard choice of maybe losing a Pokemon or having one take heavy damage from the delayed attacks which fulfill our win-win situation quota for the concept.

I would disagree. Forcing your opponent to make a bad choice is better than simply encouraging them to.

 

[escarlata]

What roles do these moves best support/encourage?
Haven't been playing much this gen but the first thing that comes to my mind when thinking about Future Sight is in XYORAS where I used to run Future Sight Slowbro alongside Specs Keldeo, because Future Sight punished all the main switch-ins to Keldeo super hard, while Keldeo also deleted all the Dark and Steel types that can absorb Future Sight. As people have mentioned above, what is does is to force the enemy into a checkmate situation. Future Sight does this with Fighting type partners, while Doom Desire does it with Dragon or Dark type partners.

The other role this can play is allowing 2 successive attacks on either turn 3 or 4 depending on speed of the opponent. This is super useful in breaking through walls that rely on heals to stay alive, by landing both attacks without giving them the chance to heal. (In fact, if we have a slow attacker, who also has a priority move, we can even land 3 attacks without the target being able to do anything in between)

What tools work best with delayed attack moves?
I'd say that Protect based moves would actually not take advantage of delayed attacks because it gives the opponent a free turn to prepare for the delayed attack. In order to make the most out of the third turn, the second turn is the turn that is the most critical in abusing in order to make the impact felt the next turn. Switching moves and boosting moves are some of the moves that force a response on the next turn.

Also, a good ability can be critical in making these moves work to the best of their ability. The biggest drawback of FS/DD is obviously the fact that the opponent is free to react to them. An ability that makes the moves harder to outright tank would force the enemy to make more difficult decisions. Also, abilities that take advantage of how often CAP 26 likes to switch in and out would be good too.


Edit: Also, I want to ask, is Perish Song a delayed move as well? Or is it out of the question because it's not exactly an attack?

 

[Warren685]

I would disagree. Forcing your opponent to make a bad choice is better than simply encouraging them to.

I mean it’s basically the same thing, the opponent is going to have to sacrifice something with the response we’re creating with our delayed attacks

 

[Mx]

What roles do these moves best support/encourage?

Wallbreaker: Because of the high base power of Doom Desire/Future Sight and the fact that it can be combined with another powerful move which might even come from another teammate, wallbreaker is a pretty obvious role for CAP 26 to fulfill. However I'm not sure if a straightforward wallbreaker would be willing to use these moves due to their slow nature, so I think that while CAP 26 might act as a wallbreaker sometimes, we shouldn't build it specifically for this purpose.

Pivot: On the other hand I think in order to succeed, CAP 26 really needs to be able to pivot in and out of the field repeatedly. While CAP 26 uses its move, it becomes vulnerable, so needs to be able to tank a hit in a pinch, and this is on top of being able to find an opportunity to switch in. During the turn where our move hits, your team also needs to be on a favorable situation to maximize the damage, so it would be a great help if CAP 26 was able to generate the momentum needed. All these needs makes CAP 26 perfectly suited for a role as either a defensive or offensive pivot.

I also think that is important to note which roles would probably not work for CAP 26:

Sweeper: Because a sweeper needs immediate strength in order to overpower whatever is in front of it, they are inherently incompatible with Delayed hit moves. I suppose you could use them in combination with a Z-Crystal in order to have a one-time nuke, but even that seems far-fetched outside of some niche lure.

Wall: This one is a bit more subjective, but if we make CAP 26 too passive or dependent on support moves, I think that there would be no point on running the moves we want, because without significant SpA, it will not pressure the opponent enough to be worth it. In my opinion, Jirachi is a good example of this problem is action, as it's supporting and walling abilities outshine anything the Doom Desire could offer.

Trapper: Trapping is already an incredibly powerful and hard to balance mechanic, so while a CAP 26 based on trapping could work, the end result will almost certainly be either an unstoppable trapper with little to no counterplay or a failure that is easily stopped.

What tools work best with delayed attack moves?

Because it affects the battle for three turns, there are probably dozens of different ways in which you can assist a Delayed hit Move

Abilities: Obviously, a good ability which is compatible with our concept will be essential. I think that we have a lot of freedom for these slots, as offensive abilities make finding a safe switch in against us harder, while defensive ones can greatly improve our survivability.

Pivoting moves: as CAP 26 will more than likely be switch out after using its move, pivoting moves can make this task significantly easier. Depending on how this project plays out, both fast and slow pivoting moves have their own advantages, so I think it is still too early to discard one and focus on the other.

Coverage: The exact amount and power of CAP 26 's coverage is another factor to be taken into account. In order to have a chance to safely use Doom Desire/Future Sight, CAP 26 needs to force out something, so with better coverage, we should get many more chances to use our main move. However, I think that coverage could also get out of hand very easily, because if the opponent can't react with a solid switch in during the fist turn, they will find themselves in an even more desperate situation than usual, as CAP 26 could be able to take a KO even before the delayed hit lands.

Teammates: Because the delayed hit can occur even while other Pokemon are on the fields, we will need to keep an eye on which other Pokemon might end out taking advantage of them and this will be essential to balance CAP 26. However, I think teammates shouldn't take much focus either, as we risk falling again into a partner-based concept, which historically have always been underwhelming.

 

[david0895]

Sorry for the separated parts, but the second answer came out only now

What tools work best with delayed attack moves?

- Coverage: The best way to block an anticipated move is to switch in someone that can hold that move, so a coverage move can easily support the delayed attack.

- Z-move: This has two direct benefits, more power and the removal of the two turns delay. Both of these are very useful especially the second that can create more mind games.

- Protect: Waiting two turns can be very dangerous if you can't hold the enemy attacks and Protect is the best move to do this.

 

[Lectrys]

What tools work best with delayed attack moves?

Powerful attacks that lower your own stats
Taking a page from BH Dialga's book again, if you anticipate our future CAP being forced out before the delayed attack move strikes, it can lower its own stats as many times as it wants, then switch/pivot out. A strong move (with drawbacks) like BH Dialga's Draco Meteor has the additional advantage of encouraging more switches.

Potent momentum sinks
It can be hard to find time to use potent but momentum-sapping moves like recovery, hazards, hazard removal, and status infliction, and the forced switches that delayed attack moves can create give the time to do just those moves. Hazards that damage switch-ins further force checkmate situations. Note that Toxic is surprisingly impotent due to Steel-types being common switch-ins to both moves.

Phazing moves
They've been mentioned regarding Slowking, but I may as well mention them again. Forcing a random switch from the opponent creates mind games regarding who they switch in to take the delayed attack, and phazing can also result in unexpected KOs if a Psychic- or Steel-weak mon is forced in at the last second or the opponent mispredicts whether the phazing move is used.

Taunt/Encore/other move-restricting moves
Opponents who default to switching walls into delayed attack moves may want to think twice now. These moves can force further switches into less durable mons (in Taunt's case) or discourage Special Defense-boosting moves (in Encore's case). I fear this may be the most likely interaction to be broken, but Taunt isn't commonly found in BH Dialga movesets (possibly due to Dialga's mediocre speed)...

Knock Off
It's probably the weakest interaction I'll mention, but delayed attack moves can encourage opponents to switch walls into them, and Knock Off cripples their future recovery (and defences in Chansey's case) and lowers their ability to take a second delayed attack move. Our future CAP's Knock Off may be quite weak, though, as Knock Off is a physical attack and both delayed attack moves are special attacks.

 

[twinkay]

Okay, so I’m going to make another Future Sight post. Bear with me.

I’ve had a lot of good discussion on Future Sight vs. Doom Desire on Discord (and a little of not-so-good ones) and I understand a lot of people’s concerns. However, I think Future Sight would lead to a better process. Here’s some hopefully more articulate reasons why.

First, I want to talk about why I think a good Future Sight user would not be broken, or at least, the risk of it being broken would not be as omnipresent. Psychic Terrain + FS User would be good, but it is still Psychic-spam, and runs the same risks Psychic-spam runs currently. I've already outlined how much setup using a Future Sight in Psychic Terrain takes in my previous post (basically, you have a window of two turns to get the terrain boost), but, all being considered, the damage of a Psychic Terrain boosted Future Sight would not be that much of a problem for current Psychic checks in the meta, and having no effect versus Dark-types. Here are a few calcs against four common specially defensive Steel-types. I don't want to polljump, so I used a wide variety of Special Attack stats as you can see in the spoiler.

calcs

100 Special Attack
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 99-117 (25.6 - 30.3%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 97-115 (24.4 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in Psychic Terrain: 90-106 (25.5 - 30.1%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Psychic Terrain: 60-72 (16.5 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO
105 Special Attack
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 102-120 (26.4 - 31%) -- 8.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 102-120 (25.6 - 30.2%) -- 0.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn in Psychic Terrain: 92-108 (26.1 - 30.6%) -- 3.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Psychic Terrain: 63-74 (17.3 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
110 Special Attack
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 105-123 (27.2 - 31.8%) -- 41.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 105-123 (26.4 - 30.9%) -- 12.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn in Psychic Terrain: 95-112 (26.9 - 31.8%) -- 37.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Psychic Terrain: 64-76 (17.6 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO
115 Special Attack
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 108-128 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- 88% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 107-126 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- 41.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn in Psychic Terrain: 97-115 (27.5 - 32.6%) -- 72.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Psychic Terrain: 66-78 (18.1 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO
120 Special Attack
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 111-131 (28.7 - 33.9%) -- 98.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 111-131 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- 87.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn in Psychic Terrain: 101-119 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 97.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Psychic Terrain: 68-81 (18.7 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
125 Special Attack
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 114-135 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 114-135 (28.7 - 34%) -- 99% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn in Psychic Terrain: 103-122 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Psychic Terrain: 70-83 (19.2 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO
130 Special Attack
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 118-139 (30.5 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 118-139 (29.7 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn in Psychic Terrain: 106-126 (30.1 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Psychic Terrain: 72-85 (19.8 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
135 Special Attack
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 122-144 (31.6 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 120-142 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn in Psychic Terrain: 110-130 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Psychic Terrain: 74-87 (20.3 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

I chose to stop at 135 because that's the highest Special Attack we've ever given a CAP, and I don't think it would go reasonably higher than that. These calcs are pretty telling because our CAP wouldn't be able to have a Psychic attack stronger than Future Sight (Prismatic Later and Psycho Boost aren't really relevant) and it mostly comes down to what coverage we give it, which I think is a pretty reasonable task to handle. They also assume our CAP is max Special Attack which isn't necessarily the case.

These Steel-types aren't necessarily that difficult to fit on teams: after all, Steel-stacking is common right now and all of these Pokemon have superb viability. Plus, I think there are a plethora of other options besides Steels that would prevent Psychic Terrain Future Sight from becoming too strong, like Pursuit users and other Tapus.

No matter which move we choose, I think it's rather agreed upon that Steel-types, especially Steel stacking, will become more prevalent, as Steel-types are the best defensive types in the tier, and resist both Future Sight and Doom Desire. I have made this point on discord but I'll make it again: A Future Sight user would improve both offense and defense, while a Doom Desire user would just improve defense. Steel-types are generally not an offensive type and a Doom Desire user would only provide another useful mon for Steel-stacking, while also increasing the effectiveness of opposing Steel-stacking because well, Steel resists Steel. This would very easily create a Steel healthy meta and also a defensive minded meta rather than a balance or offensive-oriented one. I got into some discussion on whether either a defensive or offensive meta is better than one another and I agree that one is not inherently better, which leads me to my next point. A Future Sight user would increase the effectiveness of both defensiveness and offensiveness, thus not creating a meta revolving around one or the other. I've been using Psyspam and Steelstacking as my two examples throughout this post, so let's say our Future Sight user is really good in Psyspam. This would in turn increase the effectiveness of Steelstacking, as well as maybe Pursuit users and other Tapus. With this comes the rise and fall in the effectiveness of Psyspam; so is the nature of healthy metagames. The effectiveness of certain good strats leads to other strats becoming good, which lead to the former strat becoming less effective. I'm not implying that our FS user would not be good, especially if it was already good to begin with, just as how, but it would not become broken, at least not in my mind (unless we gave the FS user the tools to overwhelm Steels or other defensive checks which it does not inherently possess). Contrast our DD user, which only increases the effectiveness of other Steels.

This is why I think a Future Sight user would lead to a more interesting process. Although there isn't any role that a Future Sight user can do that a Doom Desire user can't, a Doom Desire user that picks an offensive role finds itself underwhelming due to the underwhelming offensive prowess of Steel, while a defensive role leads more towards the situation I mentioned. A Future Sight user opens up the options of being defensive and offensive, as well as creating a metagame less reliant on checking oneself (after all, there are steels to do that!).

As a final note, I would like to mention that I would perfectly fine if we ended up picking Doom Desire, as I hope other people are to the option of picking Future Sight. However, I think it would be in the process' and the metagame's best interest to pick a Future Sight user.

==============================================================================================

As with the questions SHSP posed, I think the other users who have already posted in this thread have done a pretty good job of putting what I would have said into words. Protection, ability to in some way capitalize on switches, and a way to utilize Z-moves are all tools I think should be considered when making CAP 26.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

What roles do these moves best support/encourage?

Agree with the rest of the gang that pivoting is a good choice here. While Future Sight/Doom Desire are very powerful moves, a big difference between them and other powerful moves is that FS/DD do not immediately force switches. Traditionally, strong attacking moves place immediate pressure on the opponent to switch to their check. For example, if someone brings in their Greninja against your defensive Landorus-Therian, you probably have to switch to your wall or else eat a Hydro Pump and let the opponent transform. But if Greninja's primary attacking move were a delayed attack like FS or DD, the Landorus user could use a turn to set up Stealth Rock or smack your Greninja with a U-Turn.

Because of that, a traditional "fast/frail attacker" role is not a good choice for CAP26. Instead, CAP26 should expect to take some hits while it's setting up its FS/DD trap a couple of turns later. Look at quziel 's post early on in this thread: there's a reason why the best users of this move in the game happen to have Regenerator, which might be the best bulky pivot ability in the game. It's because a user of Future Sight or Doom Desire should be built to sponge hits as well as dish them out.


What tools work best with delayed attack moves?

Future Sight and Doom Desire are cool because two turns later, your opponent will likely have to sponge two hits in one turn, potentially even a Z-Move. That's often enough to break opposing walls, especially when one of those two moves is super-effective. If you paired CAP26 up with, say, a Necturna, there are very few Pokemon who can sponge both a Doom Desire and a Never-Ending Nightmare in one turn. CAP26, if used correctly, could become the best wallbreaker in the tier. Tools that let our side safely bring in other wallbreakers to bring out their big guns on the delayed attack turn would work well with delayed attack moves. And that's not just limited to U-Turn and Volt Switch: status moves, especially Burn and Sleep, will force the opponent to waste their turn switching. This would let the CAP26 user bring in its wallbreaker for the almighty one-two punch.

There's also one thing that needs to be talked about here: Magearna's Soul-Heart Ability. Soul-Heart raises Magearna's Special Attack any time a Pokemon on the field faints, regardless of whether Magearna actually caused it to faint. Imagine if you brought in a Doom Desire on the same turn that Magearna unleashed a Z-Fleur Cannon. Not many Pokemon want to take those attacks at the same time; it's likely that combination will cause an opponent to faint, giving Magearna the boost. There is a good chance that this Pokemon will synergize well with Magearna, and we can really make the most of our concept if this happens.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

What roles do these moves best support/encourage?

Probably the biggest role that this encompasses is likely the role of pivot, as a this role allows CAP to much better give its team a situation where the opponent a choice between bad matchup or more damage thanks to a pivots ability to switch. It also acts as an interesting form of wallbreaker, as the sheer base power of these moves is likely able to punch through a number of strong defensive mons depending on the move, although the moves' delayed nature means it would function very different from the current wallbreakers and requires far more tactical strategy to utilize effectively unless we run a Steelium or Psychium Z, which I feel is somewhat contradictory to the concept as it doesn't capitalize on the unique nature of these moves and just turns them into one-time nukes, but hey opinions.

What tools work best with delayed attack moves?

Phazing Moves: Generally these moves would be good for CAP26 on the basis that they can force the opponent into bad situations based on the randomness of how they send out. This can lead to either being in a bad matchup against 26, or taking a buttload from FS/DD (or both). These moves greatly help 26's role without completely overshadowing the moves, so I think these work well with it.

Pivoting Moves: Similar to above, these moves cause the opponent to be forced into these bad scenarios, although through this its done through the user's own accord instead of random rng. It is debatable that meditated U-turn is easier to take advantage of, but it still functions to create good situations for FS/DD

Protection Moves: Great for stalling out turns while waiting for our moves to land, can also help us on the defensive side better heal up from wounds if we go bulky route. Generally a solid move.

I don't think hazards/ hazard removal are as great of options as they can possibly outshadow our main moves for a slot, since they are commonly viewed with more utility. Same for any sort of boosting move as well.

Will get to third question later.

 

[SunMYSER]

What roles do these moves best support/encourage?

Delayed attack moves act almost as mini win conditions in their own right, allowing wallbreakers or sweepers to beat specific walls and such with the FS/DD acting as further chip. The damage of FS/DD actually changes based on which Pokemon is in at the time. This allows for Special wallbreakers, such as Specs lele to use a delayed FS to break chansey after rocks. However, this means that the user of the Delayed attacks must first get these wallbreakers that benefit from its presence. Due to this, the role of the pivot appears to be best suited for CAP 26.

Thats more based on FS however. DD has much less spread among pokemon, being limited to Jirachi. In OMs like STABmon and BH you get to see the potential of DD. Tinted Lens/steelworker Dialga comes to mind when discussing how DD is used effectively in BH, using its myriad of setup and recover options, including Z-Steel to break through most walls. As such, if CAP 26 is going to fill in the role of a Wallbreaker, its abiltiy and offensive movepool will need to be top notch

 

[hawk1113]

What roles do these moves best support/encourage?

I think the most obvious answers have been provided - a Pivot or a Wallbreaker are natural fits for a 'mon utilizing these moves, but I wanted to offer something that hasn't been discussed as far as I can see but that @Lectrys alluded too - the role of Cleric. Presumably, powering up a big Doom Desire or Future Sight will provoke a switch, and perhaps CAP26 could use that window to further support their team with moves like Heal Bell, Wish, or even Screens. These moves are huge momentum sinks, but for a 'mon that is already defensively inclined (as we've seen with successful Future Sight users like the Slows) might be a natural outgrowth. I'm not positive it's a good role to gravitate towards, however, as it threatens to create a 'mon that is so defensive and passive that it ends up being best used as "just" a Cleric and not even bothering with the moves.

 

[Wolf134]

What roles do these moves best support/encourage?

It may not seem all that obvious to you guys, but I envision that CAP26 with its FS could allow for a potential hazard setter/phazer set, the opponent switching into a dark type could help the user rack up hazard damage with phazing moves. FS could help CAP26 make for an extremely annoying pivot set. Maybe FS can allow for a hazard setting miracle eye set to work as well.

However, this is not to discount DD's potential wallbreaking capabilities vested onto CAP26, especially once Z-crystals are taken into account as well. This may even apply for a pursuit trapping set, because the opponent may be forced to switch out upon DD's initial activation.

 

[SHSP]

Both in this thread and on Discord, there's been a lot of discussion about what fits best and what works the best with these delayed attacking moves, and I want to echo a few things and throw some thoughts of my own into the mix. When it comes to roles, the most obvious and straight forward one is a pivot, due to the likely need to stomach hits and being able to take advantage of the momentum the delayed moves can bring.

Wallbreaker is another role that has been thrown around, and this is a fair bit more odd than pivoting. More often than not, CAP 26 is not going to be on the field when the move connects. A steel/psychic resist is going to want to eat the move, but this can open them up to unfavorable situations themselves- say, a steel type switches in to take the hit and has to stare down a fire or fighting move as well. In a way, these moves can help wallbreaking without us being a wallbreaker. Instead, it is almost an assistant to a more standard breaker, adding extra damage or forcing a wall in to take advantage of. (I'm not particularly factoring in the possibility of Z-DD or FS here, but those are much more standard of wallbreaking moves that are an interesting possibility.)

On Steel as an offensive typing: I decided to look through the CAP VR to see how effective steel attacks can be in isolation, to evaluate the strength of the typing.

Hide

4x SE: Diancie

2x SE: Crucibelle, Jumbao, Tapu Lele, Weavile, Kyurem-B, Syclant, Tyranitar, Clefable, Mamoswine, Stratagem, Kerfluffle

Neutral: Necturna, Tornadus-T, Aurumoth, Landorus-T, Magearna, Alakazam, Fidgit, Latios, Mawile, Medicham, Pajantom, Tangrowth, Colossoil, Hawlucha, Pinsir, Tapu Koko, Tomohawk, Chansey, Gliscor, Latias, Reuniclus, Sableye, Amoonguss, Garchomp, Hoopa-U, Serperior, Lopunny, Mew, Tapu Fini, Heracross, Hippowdon, Hydreigon, Malaconda, Venusaur

2x Resist: Arghonaut, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Greninja, Kitsunoh, Caribolt, Kartana, Toxapex, Volcarona, Zapdos, Cyclohm, Gyarados, Pelipper, Slowking, Smokomodo, Suicune, Swampert, Excadrill, Camerupt, Charizard (X and Y), Jirachi, Scizor, Victini, Aggron, Cawmodore, Gastrodon, Kingdra, Manaphy, Moltres, Crawdaunt, Keldeo, Marowak, Mollux, Pyroak, Quagsire, Slowbro, Snaelstrom

4x Resist: Heatran, Volkraken, Krillowatt, Magnezone, Naviathan, Rotom-W

It's not a particularly pretty list, thanks mainly to Steel and Water resisting it- both very prevalent defensive types in our metagame. On the positive side, it does have a significant amount of neutral hits that will hit like a truck off of Doom Desire's BP. Having a fair bit of resists can also be construed as pro-concept- we can have an idea of what we'll force in to take Doom Desire, and what we can pivot into accordingly.

One final thought that's been brought up in the Discord conversations I've noted is that we cannot overload CAP 26. Delayed moves are really good at creating momentum to do other things with, and we can have a number of different possibilities because of that, but it's quite possible that if we aren't wary we can overshadow the delayed moves completely. I want us to keep in mind that whatever move we choose, it should act as the "engine" of the mon. Giving it too much to work with can create another "engine" that takes over instead.

 

[Deck Knight]

One of the things that clicked for me after reading SHSP 's post is that Steel has a pretty good neutral matchup vs defense. Steel vs Steel creates a mutually resistant matchup where Steel vs Water is a resistance vs a neutral matchup. That keeps CAP largely out of immediate danger from threats we can phaze out or exchange hits against with a theoretical second STAB.

The biggest threats come from more offense oriented Pokemon, probably the biggest of which are Heatran, Smokomodo, Volkraken, Mega Swampert, and Krilowatt packing Earth Power.

There are of course defensive threats like Cychlohm with Fire moves, Arghonaut, Mollux, and Pyroak, but those constiute a smaller base of overall threat. Future Sight is notably effective against some of these, Stealth Rock being up (from a partner) chips away decently at others. The bottom line being that Doom Desire as a focus seems to create an effective niche space CAP can work in and around with viable partners or limited coverage considerations to avoid straying from the central focus.

 

[reachzero]

I'm a little late to the party, so I apologize for what will most likey end up as a wall of text.


I strongly favor Future Sight over Doom Desire, because it is less restrictive to the process for a concept that is already pretty restrictive. To explain why, I point to Pajantom's process, which was also (essentially) built around a choice of two direct attacks. One significant complaint was that the choice of Spirit Shackle and Anchor Shot at that time put the whole process onto greased skids--it was obvious that they would be vastly better as STAB than as coverage, so we ended up with Ghost and Steel types dominating the typing stage discussion; they were both physical attacks, so there was no point to even question if Pajantom should be specially biased. While Future Sight and Doom Desire are interesting attacks, they are both direct attacks and both special, so there are already some aspects of this process that would be incredibly hard to work around--either attack works poorly without 252 SpA EVs, which has strong implications for our stats stage, for instance. Where the big difference comes in between Future Sight and Doom Desire is as an offensive type: Psychic is one of the better offensive typings, even more so in CAP than in OU, while Steel is of the worst, especially in CAP, which is a metagame known for its Fire, Electric and Water types. It's not hard to build teams with four members that resist Steel, and there are multiple strong Pokemon that 4x resist Steel (Heatran, Krilowatt, Volkraken). To make Doom Desire viable would absolutely demand a “fixer” ability to boost Doom Desire’s offensive output, something Future Sight would not need. While there are 4-5 abilities that could do this (i.e. enough for a poll), focusing on Future Sight would allow us to address other issues regarding the moves usability at the Ability stage rather than having it forces into fixing the negatives of the attacking type. For this concept, not constraining any more stages than we already are likely to is critical, so Future Sight is the preferable option.


In terms of what these two moves do best and the best role with which to utilize them, I'd like to categorize them as “deferred momentum moves” (henceforth DMM), meaning that they take a one turn loss of momentum in order to capitalize with greater momentum on a future turn. This same principle applies to entry hazards, hazard removal moves, field effect moves, etc. In fact, Future Sight/Doom Desire function very much like a weird entry hazard, ones that depend on the user’s SpA stat and only hit once. I propose, then that the best models to examine and emulate are DMM users that also run a max attacking stat, like Spikes Greninja and Defog offensive Landorus-T. The difference between those Pokemon (and other DMM users) suggest to me that what offensive role this CAP plays is of lesser importance; what is truly significant is 1. Minimizing the momentum loss when Future Sight/Doom Desire is used by applying significant pressure on whatever CAP 26 is brought it in, and 2. Maximizing the momentum gain on the turn when Future Sight/Doom Desire procs, which means hitting hard and not being heavily resisted. The point is to use the DMM in question to eliminate good options for the opponent on the proc turn, so if 4+ Pokemon on the opposing team take marginal damage from the DMM, the net momentum loss is too great to warrant ever using it.


In conclusion, deferring momentum means that the key features for CAP 26 should be creating pressure on the Pokemon it comes in on, and making sure the Future Sight/Doom Desire proc turn actually results in heavy damage. This strongly favors Future Sight over Doom Desire.

 

[Deck Knight]

Insasmuch as reachzero is correct there are great similarities with a "concept on skids," if the ideal use of these moves is delayed momentum, we must consider that maximizing damage implies Psychic STAB, and Psychic is one of the worst typings in the game for maintaining momentum. given its weaknesses to U-turn and Pursuit. Not only is it weak to these, but Future Sight in conception as a hazard has a type entirely immune to it that also has a STAB move explicitly designed to steal momentum and punish pivoting (Pursuit). I grant these may be better arguments made in a typing thread, but SHSP has asked us to discuss which move would be better as an engine, and I believe Doom Desire has many more factors in its favor. Psychic already has extremely stiff offensive competition in CAP, and indeed several Pokemon that could model a "Greninja-like" usage of it, have access to it, and yet do not use it. (Mega) Alakazam is the poster child for a Pokemon that could utilize Future Sight in this manner (or Azelf if you want something less paper defenses, or (Mega) Gardevior for a less Dark/Bug-susceptile user, etc), and yet it is unseen. Even on the slow end, Reuniclus also has access to Future Sight and Regenerator(!) but it doesn't make use of Future Sight in its relevant metagame. Psychic has too many other tools that mitigate the advantages Future Sight would otherwise bring.

While it might be an interesting discussion to figure out why a move with as prolific a distribution as Future Sight has never won favor within Psychic types which seemed designed to exploit it otherwise (except the notable example of "The Slows" in NU), I think proof of its inadequacy over multiple metagames indicates it is the less desirable choice.

I also believe the DMM concept is flawed because it is less comprehensive than the reality. In a previous generation, this conception would be entirely valid, but in Generation 7 (and presumably beyond) Z-Moves have proven to be a critical aspect of teambuilding, and to ignore the implications of that by only focusing on the context of a "delayed hazard" is to ignore a critical game mechanic, and one that is relevant to these two moves given their exceptional ability to make use of it.

 

[jas61292]

I would like to second reachzero with regard to supporting Future Sight. When compared to Doom Desire, Future Sight is actually a much easier move to make the metagame fear, simply due to the current makeup of the metagame. Even with the lower power it has, far more common Pokemon would actually fear it. This is good, both in the fact that it makes it a stronger option, and in the fact that it requires less support from other stages in order to function, leaving our discussions and polls far more open than they would be with Doom Desire.

I also want to agree with what Felines said, with regard to comparing these moves to other moves of their type. Yes, it is true that Doom Desire is far more powerful, relative to the top "normal" option of that type, but if anything, I see that as a bad thing. If we end up only using FS/DD because the more reliable option is too weak, and not because the actual utility these moves provides is worth it, I wouldn't consider that a successful project. Future Sight would force us to make sure at each and every step that we are building a Pokemon to best take advantage of the unique mechanics the move possess, and not simply to make a generically good Pokemon that wants to use the move because its their best STAB.

 

[Gross Sweep]

This concept is definitely interesting. I don't have a strong preference for either DD or FS, but if I had to choose right now I'd probably lean towards Doom Desire. That said the rest of my post isn't really going to care about which move is chosen, since it'll be more generalities.

What roles do these moves best support/encourage?

I think it has become pretty apparent some sort of bulkier pivot type mon seems like the best fit. When I think of our hypothetical CAP 26 I really don't see them starring on any team, more playing as a great facilitator helping breakers do their job. That said the option to Z move our focused move should give us some offensive presence to keep us from being dead weight, and actually allow us to force a switch.

What tools work best with delayed attack moves?

One of the first things that has come to everyone's mind is phasing, as you disable your opponent from making the decision on who is going to take the incoming attack. Obviously this is ideal as we can force out an immunity/resistance to our focused move, but at the same time it's random and a bit unreliable. The other main mention is moves that grab momentum. Allowing us to launch our initial strike, gain momentum getting out the ideal breaker, and finally finish by either forcing a big hit from the breaker or our focused move. Quziel made a good example from NU with Slowbro setting FS teamed up with Passimian putting teams with Garbodor as a fighting resist in a tough spot.

In the end I think this is a cool concept that I'm pretty excited to be apart of. My only other thought going forward is that people should stop putting such a focus on simply the damage of the move, and whether or not it has a huge difference in power versus its usual stab (Psychic or Flash Cannon). This concept really makes me think about how similar Pokemon is to chess, as board control is pretty closely seen with these focused moves. The checkmate scenario that has been mentioned several times of either dropping our multi turn nuke on something with a bad match up or forcing in a resistance to our nuke as a different breaker takes advantage netting a kill.

Honestly I could see both of these options working well, and am truly excited to see the direction this project takes going forward.

 

[Bughouse]

I don't buy the argument that Doom Desire = Bad because it railroads Steel typing, while Future Sight somehow doesn't railroad Psychic typing, since psychic is a better attacking type. The concept revolves around using one/both of these moves, and the only way to truly guarantee one of these moves is used is to make it STAB anyway. They're not good enough moves to be used even by most Pokemon that DO have STAB on them, they're surely not going to be used by a Pokemon that doesn't have STAB.

When a concept is about an attacking move, it's pretty much always going to railroad a primary typing and stats bias, and that's fine. There's still 19 options to discuss and pick from. There's still plenty to discuss within that particular range of stats one would expect.

The move should be picked on its own merits and the simple fact is nearly no Pokemon that has Future Sight chooses to use it over Psychic/Psyshock which should be clear proof positive that it's rarely worth it. Doom Desire by contrast is nearly double the strength of Flash Cannon. Could we make a Future Sight user without Psychic or Psyshock to force it to use FS? Sure. But that would just prove that it's a worse move. If we want the CAP to actually use Doom Desire, we can much more easily make it do that, since Doom Desire actually has the potential to be good in the right hands.

 

[Birkal]

I hate to make a comment like this after Gross Sweep's general sense of positivity above, but I don't think I can hold back my thoughts about this concept for much longer.

I'm glad the community is excited about using some rarely used moves for the center of our project. We've done move-centric concepts in the past, with the most recent ones being Belly Drum Cawmodore, Parting Shot Kerfluffle, and Spirit Shackle Pajantom. In general, what seems to define these projects as a success is whether or not their most prominent movesets contain these moves. All three proudly represent these focused moves on their first-listed set. What should be noted is that they all have varying viability, with Kerfluffle being powerful but niche, Cawmodore proving to be a fantastic sweeper to unprepared teams, and Pajantom is currently thriving in the metagame, despite the ubiquity of Pursuit. A large part of this is due to how great these three moves are.

Doom Desire and Future Sight are, conversely, not great moves. On paper, they may seem tantalizing, with their high BAP and lack of representation currently in the metagame. I've seen several users allude to how these moves are even chess-like in nature. As someone who avidly follows competitive chess, I can't help but find fault in this comparison. Chess is a zero-luck game with volumes of text that painfully detail each and every specific, choreographed opening and end-game state. Pokemon is filled with critical hits, missed moves, and most importantly for this process: teambuilding.

In chess, you start with the exact same setup. In Pokemon, there is a LOT of forethought that goes into selecting not only six Pokemon, but 24 moves, several abilities, items, EVs, and more. The variation in combinations here is literally endless. And before we can even consider how to manipulate our opponents two turns in advance, we need to understand whether or not competitive players can (or even want to) engage with the game on that level.

And if you look at users of these moves, you will find that players don't use these moves. The best examples we have are Slowking and Slowbro in RU with AV sets, and Balanced Hackmons Dialga with Doom Desire. That's it. Alakazam, Reuniclus, Delphox, Sigilyph never represent these moves in their respective tiers. The most notable omission is Jirachi, which gets both Doom Desire and Future Sight; neither move is even mentioned in its analysis. The answer is pretty clear, and at this point has been gone over by smarter folks than I. All of these Pokemon just have better things to do. Most Pokemon would rather hit for immediate damage or predict a switch for the next turn, because Pokemon is a wildly unpredictable game. Saying these moves will allow for "chess-like" plays is nonsense, as the amount of variability between any three turns is an astronomical value, between switches, moves, critical hits, and hax playing into it (not even to mention teambuilding and predicting your opponent's sets).

At the end of the day, these moves just don't accommodate the game we're playing. Belly Drum provides ones of the largest offensive boosts in the game. Parting Shot is a pivoting move that allows for some insane momentum gains when used correctly. Spirit Shackle takes what's arguably a broken mechanic and latches it on to a STAB move for free. Future Sight and Doom Desire offer none of these benefits. If you want to hit hard, do it immediately. If you want to hit hard in two turns, you plan on using a move in two turns; it's just how this game fundamentally operates.


This all leads me to what is my biggest concern with this CAP (and should be yours): I fear that CAP26 will not run Future Sight nor Doom Desire on its primary competitive set. I know many people come to this project with different expectations, from creating a more focused metagame to finding the conversation along the way to be meaningful. I am certainly in the latter camp -- I have always been about the journey instead of the destination. But if you want to talk about an optics issue, this Pokemon not running either of these moves is about the hardest CAP could fail as a community project. The stakes feel incredibly high, and the moves we've decided upon as a community don't rise to that occasion.

If you use Discord (you should; PM me to find out how), you'll know that people are theorycrafting all sorts of abilities, moves, and typings that will suit these moves. But SHSP, our Topic Leader, outlined the terrifying dichotomy of this pretty well:

[1:19 PM] SHSP: if we have no immediate power, we're never going to be able to run the moves well- if we have too much immediate power, we're never going to realistically want to run the moves- that's what i've been getting from this bit​

Basically, if our special attack isn't high enough, then this Pokemon will be forced to run utility moves to find viability (or just not be viable). Conversely, if we have good offensive presence, then CAP26 will find better things to do with its matches, from sweeping to wallbreaking. It might run Future Sight or Doom Desire, but if Mega Alakazam, Reuniclus, and Jirachi have taught us anything, they won't. They'll simply find more optimal sets to run that suit the core concept of what competitive Pokemon is.

Therefore, we should be making every concession possible to encourage the usage of these moves on CAP26. I'll talk about this at greater lengths in the following stages of the process in terms of how we can practically do this. I don't think we can haphazardly throw generically good typings and abilities at this Pokemon and pray it will use these selected moves.

But for now, I want to encourage everyone to think significantly outside of the box. If we make a generally good, offensive bulky Pokemon, it will not run these moves. This creativity can come through some of the following ways:

1) Restriction: If we restrict this Pokemon's typing and movepool, we can force it to use Doom Desire if it hopes to even be viable. This can obviously result in a broken Pokemon if we don't balance it right. And while I hate to say it, a broken CAP can later be balanced, which may need to happen if we try something this risky. But if you look at any Pokemon that needs to run a restrictive movepool due to its shallowness (think Klinklang in NU), I think you'll get a sense of what I'm saying. Through that restriction, we can find a lot of creative freedom elsewhere in the process to lift this Pokemon's viability. Restriction also opens up the roles this Pokemon could play. If it has a more focused movepool, it could potentially be a pivot and run Doom Desire / Future Sight. Just again, restraint will always trump these situations, because as soon as you put on too many utility and coverage moves, there is no way this Pokemon is running a delayed-turn attack.​

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In terms of thinking outside the box, consider extremely skewed stats, a laser-specific movepool with some key additions, or an ability that provides viability on its own.​

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2) Forced Role Selection: This idea is even riskier, but should absolutely be considered for the sake of the viability of this concept. We could go out of our way to link Doom Desire or Future Sight to a Pokemon that has a very specific role due to an ability or move. An obvious example of this would be a weather (or terrain) setter. If you give CAP26 Snow Warning, its role becomes a hail-setter for hail teams, which are basically non-existent in CAP OU at this time (unless you're EpicUmbreon29). Giving it Doom Desire of Future Sight allows it to support the team while in, while simultaneously giving the Pokemon itself viability through its niche role -- think about how users would clamber for an off-type Drizzle user. That's exactly what happened with the Grass/Fairy Jumbao!​

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There's a lot of fertile ground here, from trapping to abusing weather. My fear with forcing a role upon this CAP is that it still may not even run Doom Desire or Future Sight. Some restriction would still be needed here.​

I'm not proclaiming these ideas as if I have all the answers. I frustratingly have very few answers to this concept, actually. But I've been participating in CAP for almost a decade now, and I don't think I've ever sensed such a foreboding atmosphere from a concept. I think there could be serious ramifications here if this Pokemon doesn't run Doom Desire or Future Sight, from damaged optics to general apathy for the project. Furthermore, I don't think everyone is fully considering how not incentivized battlers are to use these moves. Creating a pivot will do exactly that: create a pivot that finds four moves to do its job. But with the direction we're currently headed, I don't see that pivot choosing DD or FS, ever. We really need to start thinking outside the box on this one as a community and risk making something truly different from anything else we've seen in the project, because if we don't, I feel that we may fail this concept harder than any before.

 

[Roland le preaux]

I'm struggling to find much to add that hasn't already been discussed. That being said, I would like to add my voice to those who have suggested that Doom Desire would be the better move on which to focus. In a post-Fairy world, Steel is not nearly as bad an attacking type as many of you seem to suggest. It also is much more likely to be run than Future Sight due to its higher relative power compared to moves of the same type. I also think that this mon needs a clear defensive niche to distinguish itself in the metagame and find the necessary opportunities to use the aforementioned move. Since there are a plethora of good specially-defensive mons that use powerful Steel-type moves, such as Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Jirachi, and Magearna, I also think a niche as a physically defensive pivot could be an interesting direction to take with CAP 26. Being a physical tank could also synergize well with Steelium Z sets, which are obviously appealing given the high base power of Doom Desire, because any physical tank that can comfortably switch into Knock Off is always appreciated.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Psychic Future Sight momentum gathering can be gained by it's higher PP, and the fact that there is such an easy 'counter' to its play, in that DARK Types can switch in without pain from the Future Sight is something that can be capitalized on. With few (any?) 4* Resists, less 2* Resistances in general, and a defined Immunity, that kind of encourages a Dark Type Switch in, thereby maybe Bug, Fairy, or Fighting coverage in itself momentum gathering. If there are hazards on the ground, that is going to assist Chip Damage. If there is dangerous weather up, that is going to chip down. The coverage can vary on whether we want to affect AV+Pursuit Tyranitar (likely the biggest threat to a Psychic Type) or Bisharp with Fighting Coverage, and how much other big fat Fighting Neutral Dark Types like A-Muk are used, and if we want to hit those hard.

TL:DR - it has an easier time damaging mons that aren't outright immune, and the Viable Mon who can switch in are much more narrow in scope, making prediction easier.

That said, the issue is 'why not just use Psychic twice?' and short of simply forcing this mon to not have Psychic in it's movepool, there needs to be a reason as to why this mon wants the ability to be able to trade an attack now, for an attack in 2 turns time.

 

[G-Luke]

Psychic Future Sight momentum gathering can be gained by it's higher PP, and the fact that there is such an easy 'counter' to its play, in that DARK Types can switch in without pain from the Future Sight is something that can be capitalized on. With few (any?) 4* Resists, less 2* Resistances in general, and a defined Immunity, that kind of encourages a Dark Type Switch in, thereby maybe Bug, Fairy, or Fighting coverage in itself momentum gathering. If there are hazards on the ground, that is going to assist Chip Damage. If there is dangerous weather up, that is going to chip down. The coverage can vary on whether we want to affect AV+Pursuit Tyranitar (likely the biggest threat to a Psychic Type) or Bisharp with Fighting Coverage, and how much other big fat Fighting Neutral Dark Types like A-Muk are used, and if we want to hit those hard.

TL:DR - it has an easier time damaging mons that aren't outright immune, and the Viable Mon who can switch in are much more narrow in scope, making prediction easier.

That said, the issue is 'why not just use Psychic twice?' and short of simply forcing this mon to not have Psychic in it's movepool, there needs to be a reason as to why this mon wants the ability to be able to trade an attack now, for an attack in 2 turns time.

Seeing that these moves are used once every three turns, and this Pokemon wont realistically be out using said move EVERY three turns in the actual battle, I do not believe PP is a big issue.

The same argument can be said for Doom Desire, it would just be that we won't be able to threaten every Steel switch in with one coverage attack (which I think actually swings Doom Desire a bone, as the fact that this mon can easily nuke the only viable switchins to Future Sight with one move is disheartening).

But my biggest gripe is the "just do not give it Psychic gripe". I already went into heavy detail as to why delay moves make for horrid coverage options in my previous post linked here, but to keep it short - offensive mons need coverage moves to immediately threaten Pokemon that may rob it of momentum, delay moves work completely opposite to that. So I'll speak as if the Pokémon gains STAB on said move - how would you go about justifying a Psychic type not learning...Psychic?