CAP 26 - Part 5 - Stat Limits Discussion

Quanyails

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Moderator
This next stage is Stat Limits, and it's very important! Our Stats Leader, who will be leading this stage, is Jho, so make sure that your posts are generally directed towards him and the questions he asks. Jho will be deciding the stat limits for CAP 26 at the conclusion of this thread, based on community input. This is NOT the place where we actually submit stats. That will come later.

These limits will help to define what we consider when making and talking about stat spreads for CAP 26. We will look at limits to CAP 26's physical and special attacking prowess, its physical and special tanking capabilities, and the overall power of its stats.

This is a relatively tricky stage of the process if you're not familiar with what it is we're doing and why we're doing it. For that reason, we strongly encourage those who intend to participate to read the entire OP thoroughly and ask questions where needed.

Please do not poll jump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities.

Be forewarned that there is no poll for this stage of the CAP. The Stats Leader will decide the stat limits for the CAP upon the conclusion of this thread.

Stat Bias Limits

Stat bias limits set the general stat bias of a Pokemon from an offensive and defensive standpoint. Stat biases are not solely for limiting stats, but they also describe the overall build of the Pokemon in offensive and defensive terms. However, the stat spread is the only part of the project that will be constrained by Stat Bias Limits. There will be four stat biases selected and a total Base Stat Rating (BSR) limit. The Stat Biases are:

Physical Tankiness (PT)
The rating of the Pokémon's physical defense.​
Physical Sweepiness (PS)
The rating of the Pokémon's physical offense.​
Special Tankiness (ST)
The rating of the Pokémon's special defense.​
Special Sweepiness (SS)
The rating of the Pokémon's special offense​

A spreadsheet for calculating the ratings can be found here. If you don't have a spreadsheet program, OpenOffice and Google Sheets are free.

If you're a newer member of CAP, we highly recommend that you do some good lurking during this stage in the process. Read this page thoroughly to understand what exactly we're doing here. If you're still confused, check out some of the old Stat Limits Discussion threads for past CAPs in the CAP Process Archive. If you're still uncomfortable with posting here, then we suggest you watch how experienced users post; you can learn a lot from them!

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CAP 26 so far:

Concept:

Name - The Future is Bright!

Description - A Pokemon that makes usage of the 'delayed-attack' moves - Future Sight and/or Doom Desire

Justification - Given we're attempting to create a Pokemon that uses one of two specific moves, this is an Actualisation concept. Future Sight and Doom Desire are incredibly unique moves, which see limited usage in spite of their high base power, and ability to have a target Pokemon struck twice in the same turn. In using CAP26, the aim is to create a Pokemon that inspires a feeling of being able to trap opponents, to establish win-win situations.

Questions To Be Answered -
  • One Pokemon which has been seen to fairly reliably use Future Sight is Slowking. What can we learn from Slowking about what makes a viable user of Future Sight? On the same token, what has led Jirachi to not be effective at using Doom Desire, and other Pokemon to not effectively use Future Sight?
  • What is the optimum usage of Future Sight/Doom Desire, both on the turn immediately after using the move, and the turn on which the move will land?
  • Should the user of Future Sight/Doom Desire be primarily helping itself, or other teammates. If helping itself, what is the aim? If helping teammates, then what types of teammate?
  • Are Z-Future Sight and Z-Doom Desire mandatory, or just useful tools?
Explantion - Doom Desire is almost one we've done before, as people from the era of Cawmodore probably remember. Whilst little has changed since then, we have seen Future Sight get another power level increase since then.

This isn't a case of using a move which we know can't be used - we can look to Slowking (Future Sight) or Dialga (Balanced Hackmons, Doom Desire) for inspiration on what makes these moves workable. At the same time, we know that they're not automatic locks in spite of their high base power, allowing us room to explore what makes these moves often fall flat.

The beauty of Future Sight and Doom Desire as concept leads is that they don't massively restrict our ability to choose a direction right from the gate - focussing on these moves for their ability to strike twice in a single turn likely produces a Pokemon that is very different from focussing on these moves for their ability to force specific Pokemon out for a teammate to switch in. Whether we create a Pokemon that breaks walls, or pivots around, or supports a very specific partner, or something else entirely, these moves make for a concept that should be both interesting to implement, and with many avenues to explore.
Topic Leader: SHSP

Topic Leadership Team:

Typing Leader: GMars
Ability Leader: Jordy
Stats Leader: Jho
Movepool Leader: G-Luke

Typing: Steel/Ground

Threats:
Switch Ins: Mega Crucibelle, Clefable, Tapu Koko, Most Tornadus-T, Magearna lacking Focus Blast

Counters: Celesteela, Rotom-Wash, Arghonaut, Chansey

Checks: Mega Latias and Latios, Ash Greninja, Volkraken, Mega Charizard X and Y, AV Tyranitar, Landorus-T, Ferrothorn
Primary Ability: Levitate
 
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Jho

Sobble Squad
is a Pre-Contributor
It's finally time for stats!

Our first port of call is to figure out the Stat Bias Limits we want for CAP26. Stat bias limits are not the same as stats and I highly recommend you read up on BSR and the 4 stat biases before posting in this stage.

We already know quite a lot about how we want CAP26 to function and therefore, already have some idea of the stat biases it will have but there are still many details to be ironed out. In order to get a clear consensus on the direction of CAP26's stat limits, for now, we will just have discussion before we throw around any BSRs, potential limits, or exact stats. With that in mind here are some questions:

1. What are some statistical trends amongst strong Pivots that make them succeed in the CAP metagame and how can we apply them to CAP26?

2. Whilst CAP26 will need a respectable Special Sweepiness in order to make the best use of Doom Desire; at what, if any, level of power would CAP26 abandon the concept and focus on wall breaking sans Doom Desire?

3. We know that CAP26 will primarily be a Special Attacker due to focusing on Doom Desire, however, in light of its pressures list, should CAP26 have a meaningful mixed option and therefore require a higher Physical Sweepiness?

4. In order to fulfil its role as a Pivot CAP26 must be able to switch into a variety of attacks. Considering this, should CAP26's bulk be focused into either Special or Physical Tankiness; or would a more well-rounded approach be better?
 
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LucarioOfLegends

Saint of the Church of The Holy Pluffle
is a CAP Contributor
Can only answer one rn, will do more in a bit.

1. What are some statistical trends amongst strong Pivots that make them succeed in the CAP metagame and how can we apply them to CAP26?

Pivot is a generally wide category to fit through. A lot of particularly effective ones, such as Tangrowth, Mega-Crucibelle, and Rotom-Wash, are generally quite bulky in terms of their stats, with Tangrowth and Washtom leaning physical and mega Crucibelle leaning special. This is a fairly common trait among pivots in CAP, but some such as Tornadus can be a bit on the frailer side, although it does have Regenerator to compensate for the lower defenses. There are also much faster pivots in the jurisdiction of Tapu Koko and Volkraken, although they sacrifice that defense for thier speed tier. Based on the information on our Pokemon so far and the fact that we have to set up a Doom Desire, which could offer a free hit, I think the slower bulkier route will be more beneficial to CAP as a pivot, going down the route similar to Rotom-Wash (although WashTom has Volt Switch).
 
I do not have much time before work, but Stats is my favorite part of CAP so I'd like to get out my initial thoughts. This post may be amended later to include more in-depth analysis.

1. What are some statistical trends amongst strong Pivots that make them succeed in the CAP metagame and how can we apply them to CAP26?
Pivots in the CAP metagame display fantastic stat variety. From being frail and fast like Tornadus-T to slow and bulky like Magearna, most high tier pivots are defined less by their stats and more by their crucial immunities to important attacking types, unique combination of utility and offensive pressure, and ability to utilize U-turn and Volt Switch to ease prediction against forced switches. However, as a community we have agreed to let CAP 26 fulfill the role of a defensive pivot, which means we can ignore the stats of more offensively inclined pivots such as Tornadus-T, Crucibelle, and Landorus-T in order to focus on the mons more similar to our likely stat spread.

When we look solely at the base stats of many high-ranked defensive pivots, like Magearna, Celesteela, Heatran, and Tangrowth, many of them seem to have "dumped" the speed stat in favor of good bulk and damage. But when we look at how they are played, most Heatran sets and relevant Shift Gear Magearna sets actually take full advantage of their seemingly poor speed tiers. However I do not think this should be the case for CAP 26, given that Doom Desire (the main move in its arsenal that we want to actualize) completely ignores the speed stats of both the user and the target via its mechanics.

2. Whilst CAP26 will need a respectable Special Sweepiness in order to make the best use of Doom Desire; at what, if any, level of power would CAP26 abandon the concept and focus on wall breaking sans Doom Desire?
I believe the level of power at which CAP 26's Special Sweepiness may become problematic is in the range of Magearna's to Heatran's Special Sweepiness. At approximately this power level, we risk encouraging stat spread submissions that take too much advantage of CAP 26's potential speed tiers. I believe that we have to be incredibly careful about encouraging even moderately fast stat spreads or else we risk failing the concept. The faster CAP 26 is, the more likely it will want to rely on Earth Power, Flash Cannon, or potential coverage or utility moves over setting up Doom Desire. We must keep its Special Sweepiness in check in order to make sure that this CAP is encouraged to be a slow pivot that actualizes its concept.

3. We know that CAP26 will primarily be a Special Attacker due to focusing on Doom Desire, however, in light of its pressures list, should CAP26 have a meaningful mixed option and therefore require a higher Physical Sweepiness?
I do not believe that a meaningful mixed option is relevant in the case of this CAP. Thanks to the concept, we need to keep 26's power level focused around limited, but effective, offensive options. Creating a potential mixed attacker will only be adding unnecessary distraction that may undermine usage of Doom Desire as the metagame evolves and more mons are introduced.

4. In order to fulfil its role as a Pivot CAP26 must be able to switch into a variety of attacks. Considering this, should CAP26's bulk be focused into either Special or Physical Tankiness; or would a more well-rounded approach be better?
Thanks to its ability Levitate, CAP 26 suddenly gains a good matchup vs. a variety of physical attackers. This is very relevant to our stat interests, as the easier it becomes for us to come in on the mons that we can switch into, the more opportunities we have to set up Doom Desire. However, as a Steel-type in the CAP metagame, many in the community have expressed how important it is for this CAP to be able to tank some of the immensely powerful Psychic-type attacks that wreck havoc on the special side of the tier. Therefore, I believe that a well-rounded approach to CAP 26's bulk is the best way to balance its defensive needs.
 
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jas61292

used substitute
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
*Mod Post*

Hey everyone. Thankfully it is still early in this thread, but I just wanted to let everyone know that when this thread was originally posted, the link to the BSR calculator spreadsheet in the OP was not up to date. I have since corrected this, and the link should now give you the current version of the spreadsheet. So, if you have already downloaded the BSR calculator, please be sure to re-download the newer version.

While at this point in the discussion, it probably won't make much of a difference, once we get to the point where we start talking about specific BSR ratings, it is important to make sure that you are using the current version of the spreadsheet. Especially once we get to actual stat submissions. I would hate to see someone submit stats that do not conform to the limits, simply because they are using an outdated BSR calculator.
 

snake_rattler

Pajantom's Daddy
is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
1. What are some statistical trends amongst strong Pivots that make them succeed in the CAP metagame and how can we apply them to CAP26?
Let's divide up some of the strong pivots in the CAP Metagame into two groups:

Sturdier / Slower: Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Celesteela
  • Have ways to gain momentum (Knock Off, Leech Seed, Volt Switch, Hazards, Defog)
  • Despite defensive inclination retains good damage output
  • Aren't afraid to lower their speed in favor of mixed attacking stats (Tangrowth, Celesteela)
Frailer / Faster: Tornadus-T, Kitusnoh, Tapu Koko, Mega Crucibelle, Krilowatt
  • Have ways to gain momentum (U-turn / Volt Switch, Knock Off, Defog, Stealth Rock)
  • Nearly always maximizes offensive prowess (with the exception of defensive Tornadus-T)
  • Generally have to run max speed to be effective
A common thread with these pivots is a way to gain momentum, which we have by default with Doom Desire! Though, this isn't exactly related to stats, so let's move on to the next points. Defensive pivots aim to maximize offensive potential after hitting defensive benchmarks, while offensive pivots aim to maximize their power first and use their strength to force switches. Furthermore, slower pivots are able to run mixed sets more easily due to not caring as much about speed.

The way I envision CAP26, we're not exactly going to fall into one of these two categories, though. CAP26 is aiming to maximize its offensive potential to hit as hard as possible with Doom Desire, but it also wants to leverage its defensive potential and perhaps hit some speed benchmarks for Pokemon like Mega Mawile or Heatran. In fact, I think CAP26 should emulate Mega Tyranitar in several ways:
  • Has ways to gain momentum (Stealth Rock, Pursuit)
  • Has excellent bulk, allowing them to focus on offense
  • Do not have to run full speed to be effective, allowing for a mix of HP stats as well
I think we can make a Mega Tyranitar-esque CAP26. We don't have too much speed (reasons explained in the second question), and we can run an HP / SpA / Spe spread, where we hit certain speed benchmarks as needed. You might be thinking that CAP26 could never reach the flexibility of Mega Tyranitar, with Sand Stream-boosted bulk and obscene attack, but remember that Mega Tyranitar carries some extremely common weaknesses. With Levitate and its item slot, CAP26 can leverage momentum even with just good bulk.

2. Whilst CAP26 will need a respectable Special Sweepiness in order to make the best use of Doom Desire; at what, if any, level of power would CAP26 abandon the concept and focus on wall breaking sans Doom Desire?
I think this is less about Special Attack and more about Speed. The faster CAP26 is, the more it wants to pull off immediate damage with something like Flash Cannon. This is especially true if CAP26 were to outspeed something like Tapu Lele, which it wants to get rid of immediately. Of course, if we create a CAP26 that has really high Special Attack, it could just opt for a true tank set and ditch Doom Desire as well, but that Special Attack ceiling would have to be investigated in conjunction with its speed stat.

3. We know that CAP26 will primarily be a Special Attacker due to focusing on Doom Desire, however, in light of its pressures list, should CAP26 have a meaningful mixed option and therefore require a higher Physical Sweepiness?
This is an interesting question that's asked for most CAP projects and usually the answer is "no it's a distraction..." However, for this CAP it might not be. Our threatlist contains Magearna, and you might think that we're safe with Levitate and a Ground typing. However Magearna's Calm Mind + Pain Split set can really wear CAP26 down quickly, even with Earth Power. Unfortunately, at this point I'd be polljumping if I give specific stats and benchmarks, but please bear with me here. If Magearna gets the Calm Mind boost on the switch, CAP26 may not be able to beat it in a 1v1. This becomes especially true if CAP26 eventually opts to run non-max SpA EV spreads and Magearna decides to run Wiki Berry. Thus, CAP26 could invoke one aspect of the Sturdier / Slower pivot section and run the Speed-lowering nature and have the option to run a physical Ground-type STAB solely to beat Magearna. Surprisingly, the Base Attack required for this, without any EV investment either, is surprisingly not that high from my calculations. Otherwise, a negative Attack nature could still get the job done.

The only real valid argument against CAP26's having a marginally useful Attack stat would be if PT consumes too much of CAP26's BSR, which is definitely valid. I wouldn't call having a marginally useful Attack stat anti-concept though, we can make a CAP26 that still uses Doom Desire and invests in Special Attack. This isn't to say that Earth Power is useless - I think it'll still be a common and good option. However, I don't think we can deny the usefulness of beating a healthy Calm Mind + Pain Split Magearna, especially because that's one of the few Pokemon on our actual switch-in list. Thus, let's not discredit the idea of having a useful Attack stat.

4. In order to fulfil its role as a Pivot CAP26 must be able to switch into a variety of attacks. Considering this, should CAP26's bulk be focused into either Special or Physical Tankiness; or would a more well-rounded approach be better?
CAP26 likely needs to bias towards ST, though PT should not be too low either. We need to deal with Magearna and Tornadus-T at the very least, as they are on our switch-in list, so we should tank their attacks pretty well. Furthermore, CAP26 should have a non-losing matchup with Psychic-types like Tapu Lele, Alakazam, Aurumoth, etc. barring super effective coverage. As for physical tankiness, I think would be useful for CAP26 to survive Mega Mawile's +2 Play Rough so that CAP26 can retaliate effectively. Also, keep in mind that CAP26's ability to switch into Choice Specs Tapu Lele's Psyshock is dependent on PT, not ST.
 
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1. What are some statistical trends amongst strong Pivots that make them succeed in the CAP metagame and how can we apply them to CAP26?

I'm going to agree with the consensus here and say that there is a notable distinction between offensive and defensive pivots, and that CAP26 should fall in the latter category due to delayed impact of Doom Desire, because as we know the most successful Future Sight users Slowbro and Slowking fit into this category too. The general statistical trend is fairly rounded defenses although with some skewing towards either Defense or Sp. Def (Tangrowth is probably the most extreme in this regard but is quite commonly seen with an Assault Vest anyway), low speed stats, and quite capable offenses. An interesting trend is that a lot of the major bulky pivots tend to be primarily Specially oriented like Heatran, Magearna, or mixed like Celesteela and Tangrowth. I think with this in mind it is worth following this type of precedent with CAP 26 and aiming to be fairly well balanced both defensively and offensively, which will in turn require a lower speed stat.

2. Whilst CAP26 will need a respectable Special Sweepiness in order to make the best use of Doom Desire; at what, if any, level of power would CAP26 abandon the concept and focus on wall breaking sans Doom Desire?

I think that ultimately much of what will make CAP 26 forego Doom Desire is its Speed tier or its utility options in the movepool stage, and not CAP 26's Special Attack (at least to a point). Having a stronger Special Attack is obviously preferable for maximising DD damage, but as we have seen from Slowking and Slowbro, not necessarily a massive requirement. So while I don't necessarily think a high Special Attack will discourage Doom Desire, I also don't see the point in hitting anything too much higher than what precedent has suggested, as much of DD's power comes from its chip damage to allow other wall breakers to push past.

3. We know that CAP26 will primarily be a Special Attacker due to focusing on Doom Desire, however, in light of its pressures list, should CAP26 have a meaningful mixed option and therefore require a higher Physical Sweepiness?

I think there's certainly some benefits to having a usable Attack stat, since Ground has such a powerful physical STAB move in Earthquake and will likely hit certain pressures and checks better depending on the sets they typically run, but I also do not necessarily believe that it's a requirement. As Snake has outlined, there's nothing explicitly wrong with having a usable Attack stat though it does run the risk of affecting CAP 26's general BSR in turn reducing its defences, which I think is something that CAP 26 needs to make the most out of.

4. In order to fulfil its role as a Pivot CAP26 must be able to switch into a variety of attacks. Considering this, should CAP26's bulk be focused into either Special or Physical Tankiness; or would a more well-rounded approach be better?

I think as other have said that Special Tankiness should be a priority due to the majority of its switchins being Specially oriented, as well as a lot of the pressure relationships. That being said usable Physical Tankiness should be present as well, as there are some specific pressures and checks like Tyranitar and Mawile that it would be great to survive hits from. Its one major Physical switch in Mega Crucibelle will likely not be able to do too much damage with Stone Edge although it does have a fairly high Base Power so it would be worth allowing it to take a few of them. Additionally with Levitate, Landorus-T becomes another good switchin for CAP 26, so it would be great to see it be able to stomach a Supersonic Skystrike without too much issue. As such I think a well rounded approach with a Specially oriented lean will be ideal.
 
2. Whilst CAP26 will need a respectable Special Sweepiness in order to make the best use of Doom Desire; at what, if any, level of power would CAP26 abandon the concept and focus on wall breaking sans Doom Desire?

Well, since this thread has been pretty quiet I guess I will speak up again to further address this question. I definitely think CAP 26 will need at least above average Special Sweepiness that comes almost entirely from its Special Attack stat. If we want to be able to properly set up the checkmate scenarios that have been discussed, we need these Doom Desires to hurt. I fear if our Special Sweepiness is too low, the community may want to make up for it with boosting moves in the movepool stage. I'd much rather give the CAP its power directly from its stats, as the only reliable way to empower a Doom Desire hit is by increasing the base Special Attack that the move is based off. And at risk of sounding like a broken record: we can't lose sight of the concept at any point during this process or else we risk making a mon, viable or not, that just doesn't run DD.

My bigger concern is what possibilities a high Special Sweepiness limit might open up in terms of this CAP's Speed stat. I think the crucial point at which Doom Desire might be abandoned in favor of wallbreaking (probably feasible with just Ground STAB/Steel STAB/Hidden Power Fire) is more dependent on a specific speed tier than a specific SS limit. I put Heatran at the highest end of our potential Special Sweepiness limit because I believe CAP 26 will end up a very different type of mon if it can outpace that threat when fully speed invested. I'm interested to see if anyone else in the community is interested in a possible "Speed limit" for CAP 26 to alleviate these concerns and lower the risk of failing the concept. I'm sure Jho can tell me if that's even an option or if it goes against the CAP process. I apologize in advance if I'm overstepping here; it's a suggestion I'm only making because I think it would benefit the final product.
 
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1. What are some statistical trends amongst strong Pivots that make them succeed in the CAP metagame and how can we apply them to CAP26?

Since I haven't seen a whole lot of statistics, here we go! Here are the statistics for every Pokemon currently designated as a "Defensive Pivot" in the metagame's Role Compendium Thread. There's a gap between "Physical", "Special", and "Mixed" Pivots.
Species NameHPAtkDefSpASpDSpeSFBSTPTSTPSSSBSR
Cyclohm108601181127080622548201.73543124.9643180.49867142.69149297.30202
Landorus-T89145901058091716600136.52429124.24182199.38572146.69029334.27293
Pelipper6050100957065474440119.624985.3304864.16057109.68683186.23969
Tornadus-T791008011090121912580112.70604129.07407164.07896184.82058323.78096
Zapdos90908512590100810580130.1003140.22108133.68841191.07314326.63938
Slowbro9575110100803096490173.13503129.7590365.3233783.2144233.38731
Mega Slowbro9575180130803096590280.29403129.7590365.3233795.48599310.91647
Jirachi100100100100100100810600163.28398166.35276148.93394152.28744349.86308
Jumbao92639712410496761576150.04289163.5941691.93482180.05717320.50231
Slowking9575801001103096490127.20974176.3456765.3233783.2144233.81663
Tapu Bulu70130115859575568570150.03364126.54535151.0308108.34977288.25905
Magearna809511513011565474600162.33588165.39101104.75285140.13536312.05423
Amoonguss114857085803096464127.36699147.2301970.2828476.4499213.84646
Fidgit95761099080105839555171.60418129.75903115.75441140.89786302.57679
Kitsunoh80103855580110874513120.573115.96601163.4022693.25738260.50052
Mega Sableye5085125851152034480136.57517127.952866.7598273.05291202.8178
Tapu Fini70751159513085668570150.03364172.68629100.31196128.5758298.41713
Toxapex50631525314235133495166.66941158.4804260.5138761.4029230.5536
Wash Rotom506510710510786673520116.51234118.9075888.96526141.12625242.52718
Tangrowth1001001251105050306535202.7112886.3626193.76324105.55352257.37938

Some trends and averages are:

AveragePhysicalSpecialMixedAll
Average PT164.87150.58149.00154.95
Average ST123.33159.64132.17135.95
Average PS110.35112.3994.96104.70
Average SS136.23132.80102.54121.90
Average BSR287.50300.89251.08276.28
Average BST546.86567.2516.5539.8

An additional, relevant average is 130.17, which is the average rating for each Pivot's "Primary attacking stat".

Some conclusions and inferences?
  1. Pivots tend to have "Above Average" Tankiness on BOTH sides of the spectrum at a minimum, even if they are listed as being a "physical" pr "special" pivot. Exceptions are Pelipper (who rely relies on its typing and weather alongside recovery to live hits) and Tangrowth (who almost always patches its poor ST with AssVest and who has truly outrageous PT).
  2. The average Sweepiness numbers indicate that usually, a successful Pivot needs at least good attacking abilities. There are a few 'mons tagged as below average or even poor, but those are exceptions and in the case of something like Toxapex, not a 'mon we'd want to consider a role model.
  3. The average BSR and BST aren't as high as I'd have guessed, so we don't need to go totally nutso. However, I would note that the few "outliers" that are significantly below average (Pelipper, Slowking, Mega-Sableye, Toxapex, Amoongus) are all some combination of being fairly niche in the metagame, being more passive and support-focused than offensive, and/or have insanely powerful abilities. Since we (had to, in my opinion) used our ability slot for buying more switch-ins, and since we'd like to actualize Doom Desire, AND since we'd like to not be a B- 'mon in viability rankings in six months, we likely want CAP 26 on the higher side of those averages. This is particularly notable because (as we'll discuss in a later point) it makes a lot of sense to focus CAP 26 on being a ST Pivot, and because Special Attacks tend to be more powerful, our BSR and BST will likewise need to be more powerful to survive.
2. Whilst CAP26 will need a respectable Special Sweepiness in order to make the best use of Doom Desire; at what, if any, level of power would CAP26 abandon the concept and focus on wall breaking sans Doom Desire?

We can somewhat see these from the stats, as a few common "Pivots" are also sometimes alternatively used as "Wallbreakers". I think it's clear we NEED our Special Sweepiness at or above the average of a pivot in the meta and probably "above average" at a minimum in range, as if we go lower than that we risk looking more like M-Sableye and Tapu Fini and generally focusing on support moves instead of raw power. But at the same time I would worry if we start getting into the range of Tornadus-T and Jumbao, we will be forced to cripple CAP 26's movepool to ensure it isn't used as a generic wallbreaker or Z-crystal nuker. This is a bit tough though, as a good question in my mind is if Jirachi doesn't use DD, do we need even higher Special Sweepiness than Jirachi to justify it? As others have said, I think the key here is we really want to have high power, lower speed.

3. We know that CAP26 will primarily be a Special Attacker due to focusing on Doom Desire, however, in light of its pressures list, should CAP26 have a meaningful mixed option and therefore require a higher Physical Sweepiness?

I could take this or leave it. Most (although not all) Pivots leave some ability to go mixed, and it definitely helps in our surprise value. The majority of pivots have the ability to mix it up, offensively, so it is clearly extremely valuable to the role of a Pivot in the broad sense to keep opponents guessing and thrive on unpredictability to buy more free switches. At the same time, given our newfound ability, there isn't a ton on our pressure list that can't be handled with a few coverage moves, tech Hidden Power, and the raw destructive force of Earth Power. We now wall Excadrill, Fidgit, and Mega-Diancie and we have no problem heavily threatening the likes of Jumbao, Tapu Lele, Volkraken, and Heatran with our STABs. If we get some coverage that can mangle at least a few of - Caribolt, M-Alakazam, Magearna, Tyranitar, Aurumoth - we're going to be in fine shape and without process-jumping there are plenty of options to do just that.

4. In order to fulfil its role as a Pivot CAP26 must be able to switch into a variety of attacks. Considering this, should CAP26's bulk be focused into either Special or Physical Tankiness; or would a more well-rounded approach be better?

As noted in answer 1, there are very few successful pivots in the CAP metagame that don't have at least reasonable bulk on both sides. Almost all our switch-ins are Special, and there are overall less "Specially Defensive Pivots" in the metagame to compete with, so we clearly should bias on that side (especially to ensure we don't instantly die to various random Focus Blasts which is still a problem for CAP 26). I do think it is important that we have the PT to soak a few neutral hits from powerful 'mons we can now switch into such as Caribolt, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Colossoil, and Excadrill though. Extra PT will also help us not be totally embarrassed by insanely powerful physical attackers like Mega-Mawile, Weavile, and Syclant and will overall help our viability.
 

Jho

Sobble Squad
is a Pre-Contributor
After the discussion here and discussion around limits on Discord, I feel it's about time to open up talking about limits, BSR, and stat breakpoints we want to hit. The points within this thread have helped a great deal in outlining the elements we need in order for CAP26 to succeed. One major concern which has been bought up, however, is speed. Many people are concerned that too much speed will incentivise CAP26's use as a wallbreaker as opposed to a pivot. So whilst talking about Specific Limits we want to hit I would also like you to answer the following question:

What level of Speed does CAP26 need to perform its role as a pivot optimally, whilst minimizing the risk of failing concept and becoming a wallbreaker.

In order to guide the discussion, I have put together a preliminary limit spread. Please use this as a rough guide when talking about limits but also feel free to point out any changes you may think of if I have missed the mark on the community's thoughts. Please keep in mind these are a very, very rough outline solely for discussion's sake at this point. DO NOT take these as set in stone.

HTML:
Physical Tankiness : 160

Special Tankiness: 190

Physical Sweepiness: 110

Special Sweepiness: 135

Total BSR: 290
Please remember to update your spreadsheets If you haven't already before posting!
 
Personally, I think allowing us to be a mixed attacker means that more moves will compete with Doom Desire for space on our movesets. That's the last Thing we want. So we should have a very low PS, especially as we want a low speed.
 
What level of Speed does CAP26 need to perform its role as a pivot optimally, whilst minimizing the risk of failing concept and becoming a wallbreaker.

In terms of a lower limit, I like 66. 66 speed allows us to outspeed CM and AV Magearna without investment, which feels important since Magearna is theoretically a switch-in for us and we need to be able to hit her first due to her ability to run Focus Blast. This speed tier allows us to also harass defensive Pelippers and ensures our Clefable matchup stays excellent.

I tentatively think that we should have a hard upper limit of 80 Speed.

80 Speed is enough that if we REALLY want too, we can Outspeed Heatran. It's also more than enough to outspeed a few other key pressures, counters, and checks such as Tyranitar, Mega-Swampert, Mollux, and Celesteela, and it vastly improves our matchup against Magearna (one of our shakiest switch-ins otherwise due to Focus Blast). And within your SS limit outlined (which after a few calcs I think is pretty perfect), it also allows us to still have a high enough SpA to do what we want which is use Doom Desire to scare most fairy and ground-type mons while still taking 20%+ from our hard counters (which feels good to me, as it is enough to dent them and enable checkmates without being so much damage as to allow us to just stay in).

If we go too much faster than 80 speed, my worry is two-fold:

1) The more speed we get, the more incentivized we are to run Timid spreads or Choice Scarfs and try to wallbreak or revenge kill, which is not the idea behind CAP 26.

2) The more speed we get, the more likely we are to make Doom Desire fail to hit those benchmarks I outlined, which will in turn incentivize us to focus on utilizing Flash Cannon, Earth Power, and coverage alongside offensive items instead of bothering with our signature move.

Personally, I think 80 speed is total overkill and will be submitting something slower, but going much higher than that feels dangerous to me.
 

snake_rattler

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If we're to implement a "speed limit," I think 65 is actually a good number to look at. The reason is that having exactly 65 Base Speed locks off CAP26 from having any chance to outspeed Heatran. Outspeeding Heatran would be beneficial for CAP26, but CAP26 will always want to outspeed Heatran. The problem with that is that CAP26 will need to flex its defenses really well, and dumping all of its EVs into Speed cuts into CAP26's bulk. For reference, Modest Heatran is has an actual speed stat of 253. If CAP26 can hit that stat, it will want to. Thus, I'd argue we want to avoid any Speed stat that's 66 or greater so CAP26 doesn't feel compelled to run all those Speed EVs and a Timid Nature - the problem gets worse as you approach 66 from above (e.g., 66 would be the worst speed stat because CAP26 would actually run max speed EVs with a Timid nature).

Another number we have to keep in mind is 95. That's Tapu Lele's speed tier. We cannot outspeed, or speed tie with, Tapu Lele, or else CAP26 will definitely want to run a more reliable Steel-type STAB. Thus, I'd place another, more definite "speed limit" at 94. Outspeeding Heatran is a lot easier at this speed tier, but we're approaching relatively fast spreads that might not have the BSR to able to account for the bulk we want for CAP26 to tackle Pokemon like Choice Specs Tapu Lele and Mega Alakazam.

So I think the speed tiers we need to look at are from 1 to 65 OR closer to 94, though I think 65 is the most optimal choice. Even if we're forced out by Heatran, Heatran doesn't want to switch into Earth Power, and of course setting Doom Desire on the Heatran switch-in doesn't forfeit so much momentum.
 
I think we should have a speed limit of either 65 or 76, allowing Modest or Timid Heatran to outspeed us, respectively. As a user of STAB Ground-type moves, in a metagame where Heatran is so dominant, if we can outspeed Heatran it will almost always be optimal to do so. Around 80 Speed, with maximum investment and a Timid nature, we will also be outspeeding standard defensive variants of Jumbao, Tapu Bulu, Tangrowth, Clefable, and even Landorus-T, all Pokemon that we would value running more reliable Steel STAB to deal with. We would also be outspeeding a lot of Pokemon weak to our Ground moves, such as Magnezone, Cyclohm, Magearna, Bisharp, Mawhile, and Heatran itself, the first 3 of which are likely switch-ins for us. All of this would incentivize us to click buttons that are not Doom Desire, to get rid of threats before they can retaliate.

Spending our power budget on Speed, be it through our BSR or our EVs/nature, is something we can't afford to do and still have Doom Desire strategies be optimal. We need to be eating hits, and then trying to hit the enemy team back harder. That's a plan that only works if we have the combined bulk and power to pull it off.
 
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I'd like to support 65 as a limit for CAP 26's speed, because it is quite important to beat CM Split Magearna without significant investment. I don't personally believe we should go any higher, as it will severely limit our other options by taking a sizeable portion of the BSR.

While CM Split Magearna can't deal significant damage to CAP 26 outside of Pain Split until its at +2 or +3, it is highly important for CAP 26 to be able to hit it first with either Earthquake or Earth Power to guarantee the 2HKO before it splits itself back up. This also allows some interesting mind games to play out upon the switch in as choosing Doom Desire instead of Earthquake would mess with the Magearnas predicted Pain Split. It absolutely won't be the end of the world to be outsped by Magearna, but CAP 26 is a much better counter if it can.

With this in mind, as Earthquake will likely be the best STAB option to take out CM Split Magearna (A Special Attack stat of about 140 is required to 2HKO it through +1 and +2 with Earth Power and Rocks Up) it is also recommended that a minimum Attack of 95 be selected, as this will allow for Earthquake to 2HKO it with a stat reducing nature and one layer of Spikes up. With a neutral nature, Earthquake will be able to 2HKO with Stealth Rock. 96 is the lowest possible attack stat to guarantee the 2HKO without Stealth Rocks up if it uses a neutral nature, and 109 the lowest with a stat reducing nature. That being said if we are to follow Jho's proposed Physical Sweepiness, the absolute upper limit with 65 Speed is 100 (100 Attack and 65 Speed gives us a PS of 109.264). As we can see below an Attack stat of 100 doesn't significantly alter our calculations from that of 96 as it still fails to 2HKO 100% of the time with a stat-reducing nature and rocks up. As such I recommend that the minimum Attack stat should be 96.

95 Base Attack

0- Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Magearna: 162-192 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Magearna: 162-192 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- 78.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Magearna: 162-192 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
0 Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Magearna: 180-212 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Magearna: 180-212 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

96 Base Attack

0- Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Magearna: 164-194 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Magearna: 164-194 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Magearna: 164-194 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
0 Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Magearna: 182-216 (50.1 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

100 Base Attack

0- Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Magearna: 168-200 (46.2 - 55%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Magearna: 168-200 (46.2 - 55%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Magearna: 168-200 (46.2 - 55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
0 Atk Steelix Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Magearna: 186-222 (51.2 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I would also like to take the time to point out that the individual limits that have been proposed on Physical and Special Sweepiness and Tankiness are all actually pretty important, meaning that a total BSR of 290 is difficult to achieve considering what we want CAP 26 to accomplish. Either we are going to not be able to have the defenses to stomach the hits from a lot of the premiere Psychic-types like Tapu Lele and Alakazam, or the strong Super-effective attacks from Mega Mawile, or we will fail to cleanly deal with some of our intended switch ins like Magearna.

If we are aiming to have a Speed stat of approximately 65 and an attack of approximately 96 to check Magearna, to reach some of our other limits we are looking at a Base Stat Total of approximately 580 and a BSR of approximately 300-320. Now of course this doesn't have to be the case at all as it is a rather extreme aim to hit the individual limits, but to get to the proposed 290, we will be severely limiting either our defensive potential, our damage output on Doom Desire.

The closest I have been able to get to 290 is only by severely reducing the Speed stat, which will likely dampen ability to outspeed certain Pokemon that we might want to like Magearna without investment, which is another consideration.
 
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Deck Knight

Seize Your Doom
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After the discussion here and discussion around limits on Discord, I feel it's about time to open up talking about limits, BSR, and stat breakpoints we want to hit. The points within this thread have helped a great deal in outlining the elements we need in order for CAP26 to succeed. One major concern which has been bought up, however, is speed. Many people are concerned that too much speed will incentivise CAP26's use as a wallbreaker as opposed to a pivot. So whilst talking about Specific Limits we want to hit I would also like you to answer the following question:

What level of Speed does CAP26 need to perform its role as a pivot optimally, whilst minimizing the risk of failing concept and becoming a wallbreaker.

In order to guide the discussion, I have put together a preliminary limit spread. Please use this as a rough guide when talking about limits but also feel free to point out any changes you may think of if I have missed the mark on the community's thoughts. Please keep in mind these are a very, very rough outline solely for discussion's sake at this point. DO NOT take these as set in stone.

HTML:
Physical Tankiness : 160

Special Tankiness: 190

Physical Sweepiness: 110

Special Sweepiness: 135

Total BSR: 290
Please remember to update your spreadsheets If you haven't already before posting!
I believe these initial limits set an excellent maximum threshold for values, kept in check by the overall BSR limit.

A few observations:

Assuming the 65 Maximum Speed Limit, the corresponding offensive stats would be 100 Atk and 124 SpA.
For each corresponding 5 point Speed Drop, you pick up 7-10 Atk points and 10-14 SpA pts and remain in the limit.

Given this CAP seems much less focused on speed, hard limits on values may be warranted.

Sweepiness Table (w/in Limits):

AtkSpASpePSSS
10012465109.264134.915
10713360109.467134.573
11714755109.449134.431
12415750109.671134.643

A real question arises as to whether we want this much capacity for mixed attack. While Chansey is going to wall univested stats at this level, the ability to create a surprise physical Choice Band set which can 2HKO it with Earthquake seems like a bad idea. Even 107 Atk Choice Banded with Adamant can do this, so we should tread carefully. This attack level also allows a 3HKO with EQ + EQ + Tectonic Rage (and Tectonic Rage does over 50%), so Chansey becomes not a Counter but a Check.

Calc: 252+ Atk Choice Band Steelix (107 Atk) Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 312-367 (44.3 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Steelix (107 Atk) Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 208-246 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Steelix (107 Atk) Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 373-441 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

AV Tyranitar similarly gets easily 2HKOd by 107 Atk Earthquake even with no investment and negative nature after SR:
Calc: 0- Atk Steelix (107 Atk) Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 188-224 (47.3 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

110 Physical Sweepiness may be too high. It certainly allows Earthquake to casually 2HKO checks, and whether Tyranitar even still qualifies after Levitate's victory is questionable, but it's not unreasonable to bring up potential values.

Tankiness:

Tankiness is a relative rather than absolute measurement, and it's really about the calculations. The percentages may change slightly (0.1-0.3%) but generally if you max the Tankiness value, the only performative differences for your final HP/Def/SpD values are in things like Seismic Toss damage, Leech Seed healing, etc., basically effects that rely on fixed HP values to determine their efficacy.

Instead, let's look at some calculations for given values using Mega Alakazam, Tapu Lele, and Magearna's Focus Blast for ST. For PT we'll use Ferrothorn's Power Whip, Mega TTar's Fire Punch, and +2 MegaMaw Play Rough and Knock Off (for non Z-Crystals).

All assumptions are 252 HP / 0 [Def/SpD] investments, as those are the most likely efficient bulk EV spreads.
PT LimitAttackerDamage RangeST LimitAttackerDamage Range
170Ferro Power Whip29.3-34.6%200MZam Focus Blast68.8-81.1%
MTTar Fire Punch51.5-60.7%Lele/Mag Focus Blast54.5-67.4
MMaw +2 Play Rough66-78%Lele/Mag AoP86.7-102%
MMaw +2 Knock Off95.4-112%
160Ferro Power Whip30.7-36.5%190MZam Focus Blast72-85.2%
MTTar Fire Punch54.3-63.9%Lele/Mag Focus Blast57.8-68.5%
MMaw +2 Play Rough69.7-82.2Lele/Mag AoP91.3-107.6%
MMaw +2 Knock Off100.5-118.2%
150Ferro Power Whip32.3-38.5%180MZam Focus Blast75.6-89.3%
MTTar Fire Punch57.1-67.3%Lele/Mag Focus Blast60.4-71.5%
MMaw +2 Play Rough73.7-86.9%Lele/Mag AoP95.4-112.6%
MMaw +2 Knock Off106.1-125%

Notes: As mentioned, the spread assumption for Tankiness is 252 HP/0 [Def/SpD]. Going full bulk + nature will alter a lot of these calcs and cause OHKOs to become 2HKOs or 2HKOs to become 3HKOs. The purpose of the table is to show generalized expected damage and to shift limits up or down on that basis.

The trend is for each 10 Pt increase or decrease in PT / ST, expected damage shifts about 5-6% of the base value (e.g. 100% values go up/down 5-6%, 50% values go up / down 2.5-3%, 30 % values go up or down 1.5-2%, etc.). Again, this doesn't account for nature or bulk loading. Nature is 10% off base value, EVs depend entirely on how much they are effecting the absolute stat (High HP/Low Def yields more gains, Low HP/High Def yields fewer).

Conclusion:

Physical Sweepiness worries me a little bit because it makes Earthquake a very plausible slot against specially defensive checks and counters. I would like to see the ST Limit go up to 200, as it allows a plausible chance to not be OHKO'd by All-Out Pummeling without later relying on a secondary ability. If you can avoid Focus Blast on the switch-in, Chople Berry becomes a viable option to tank the +1 AoP even if you had to eat an unboosted Psychic or a Fleur Cannon earlier.

As far as the overall limit, you can technically hit all of the other limits if you dumpstat Attack (the most viable concept-effective option), but I don't think it is particularly onerous. I believe stat spread submitters should have flexibility to pick and choose what it important to their execution of the concept, but the BSR should limit them to require them to actually make those choices. 290 is in line with what I think we want here. Arghonaut's by comparison is 300.99, Cylcohm's is 297.30, and Pyroak is at 296.22. These CAP Pokemon have similar builds to what we want, with a focused offense, limited speed tier, and good defenses. It's also a higher BSR than hawk1113 's averages from his table above. High BSRs skew offensive. It's really, really difficult for defensive Pokemon to crack 300 unless they also have a great speed tier.

CAP 26 has a very good defensive type/ability combination thus far (it's as close to immune from residual damage as you can get without having MGuard, and has 3 immunities), stats are important but not the place we need to overkill.
 

G-Luke

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Today, I hope that I will be able to convince you all that the current BSR limits are not high enough for the needs and demands of CAP 26. For starters, I am of the opinion that this project does not demand a slow speed stat, and would actually benefit from having more speed. Having a speed well within the 70+ range would allow CAP 26 to be able to run minimal investment in its speed stat to creep past Calm Mind + Pain Split Magearna and Mega Mawile, two very potent wallbnreakers in the metagame that CAP 26 needs to able to in order to guarantee success. If CAP 26 has for example 60 base speed points, it would need to run 128 EVS just to creep standard 204 Speed Mega Mawile. which significantly cuts into its bulk to do so, therefore lowering its ability to check other threats such as Alakazam-Mega and Aurumoth effectively. On the flip isde, if CAP 26 were to have, say 76 base speed, its defensive sets would not need to run any speed stat investment to outpace Mega Mawile, and only run 50 if Mawile decides to run 252 EVS. This ability to outpace these key threats without sacrificing a ton of bulk would ensure that CAP 26 would be successful in the metagame. The only problem is, the BSR. The current BSR limits actively punish spreads that try to push past the 65 base speed tier, forcing them to sack either bulk or power.

SpeedSpecial AttackAttackHPDefenseSpecial DefensePTSTPSSS-
511299210171111
118.372
185.161
88.5464
117.908
271.39861
66110969580114
127.210
182.557
106.03
123.18

290.21771
60125997590119
131.960
167.343
102.919
128.342
284.75565
70116908080125
113.613
179.512
105.208
135.011
286.56081
651161007698120
134.378
167.272
109.264
127.955
290.14819

All of these stat spreads how case that stat spreads that push the speed will often have to sacrifice power or bulk. For example the 70 speed Pokemon had to go for low offensive stats in order to compensate for its speed stat. The first spread also sacrifices speed, in order to gain maximum power and bulk. I think that, we should be interested in opening up the possibility of raising the BSR and that of not being so quick to wtite off having a higher speed stat.
 

quziel

The Scientist is Gigalith
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Just gonna make a really simple post here about HP stats, and how they interact with one of our Doom Desire targets, Chansey. Simply put, the lower HP stat we have, the harder it gets to freely Doom Desire on a Chansey. Notably, hitting 99 HP means we basically can DD vs Chansey until the end of time. Also notably, if we're sitting near 50 base HP, we are essentially instantly forced out by a chansey, as its suddenly doing 30 odd % to us with Seismic Toss, which is not an interaction I view as desirable.

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP Torterra (50 base HP): 100-100 (32.8 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP Torterra (98 base HP): 100-100 (25 - 25%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is at odds with our stated goal to be a Specially Offensive Tanky Pivot, which essentially pushes low HP spreads for ease of eving, as low HP / high defenses means you can easily run 252 HP / 252 SpA with incredible efficiency. There's likely a good balance between these two, between the awkward ev spreads and stat design of high HP spreads, and the inability to easily take advantage of chansey that comes with low HP spreads, and I wish y'all luck when designing stat spreads.
 
I would like to make a final post to express my cautious opposition to some of the directions in which I think CAP is currently being pulled during this stats discussion. I believe some of the arguments for higher limits across the board risk failing the concept with a generically good pseudo-legendary stat spread that will enable better builds than "Doom Desire pivot" due to the versatility it would provide. Such stats might cripple us during the movepool stage, creating a Smokomodo situation where the concept fulfillment must take a backseat to balance concerns. I do not think Jho's preliminary limit spread was far off base, and I want my points to support the argument that there should not be a significant increase to the limits.

Mixed Attacker: I believe this is an unnecessary direction that has been suggested largely because of one listed pokemon, Magearna (especially its Calm Mind and Assault Vest sets). Not only does the need to hit this clockwork fairy on the physical side strike me as overblown, it also would cause a bizarre conflict of interests for 26's stat needs. Demanding a higher PS limit seems to be in the hopes of creating sort of mixed wallbreaker that speed creeps Mega Mawile and I guess runs a Mild nature (?) to preserve EQ damage, hampering its usefulness as a pivot into the many faster physical attackers who it has no hope of outrunning anyway. Not only are the Magearna fears overblown, as a low-base-HP 26 could switch-in on the first Calm Mind and spam Earth Power until Mage dies anyway (albeit beating it without a ton of HP left over), but there will be many on-concept solutions for this match-up during the movepool stage. Phasing been talked about as an option since almost the beginning of this process, and other moves are available to punish status moves, eliminate stat changes, or even copy stat changes. Such moves would not be out of place on a defensive pivot and may work well in tandem with Doom Desire to shuffle targets or force sub-optimal switches.

Good Chansey Match-Up: Listen, I hate facing Chansey and stall teams as much as the next player, but we decided as a community to include it on our counters list, despite 26 being a Toxic-immune Steel type with potential access to recovery. The sudden need to be able to comfortably use Chansey as set-up bait for our Doom Desire checkmate scenarios strikes me as inconsistent with our earlier analysis of the match-up. As far as I'm concerned, the ability stage did nothing to change the situation as Levitate is irrelevant against the pink blob. There are benefits to having a low HP stat, giving us a more comfortable switch into Pain Split Magearna as well as Leech Seed and Horn Leech.

Reliably Outspeeding Mega Mawile: This is my most controversial point, but I truly believe it is not a strict necessity for CAP 26 to be a viable and healthy pivot in the metagame. 160 PT is more than enough to live a Fire Fang, Knock Off, or Brick Break after Stealth Rock and easily OHKO with our Ground-type STAB, meaning that any spread nearing the physical tankiness limit will be a check to Mega Mawile, full stop. The question is whether we want to be able to switch-in to Mega Mawile, surviving any hit, and then proceed to outplay Sucker Punch and beat it, which is only possible with recovery or Substitute anyway. The ability to pull this off would be a boon to the match-up such that I think it would encourage any spread with 51 speed or higher to invest in that stat in order to outrun common Mega Mawile spreads. My concern is that pouring so much of our power budget into speed, be it through our BSR or our EVs, will limit our capabilities as a hard hitting tank that wants to live hits and set up Doom Desire against the vast majority of the tier. My impression of our choice to be part Ground-type was to use our secondary STAB to prevent easy Doom Desire switch-ins, of whom Mega Mawile is not one. Krilowatt, Heatran, Magnezone, etc can easily shrug off a DD hit but are scared to come in on a STAB Ground move, making the fact that they might outspeed us less important than it initially seems. I would personally rather get Stat Limits and submissions that push the envelope in terms of our bulk and damage, encouraging a DD-focused playstyle against as much of the metagame as possible.

P.S. Apologies for the wordiness on this post, I'm at the laundromat and I apparently have nothing better to do than write a novel
 
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GMars

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If we're to implement a "speed limit," I think 65 is actually a good number to look at. The reason is that having exactly 65 Base Speed locks off CAP26 from having any chance to outspeed Heatran. Outspeeding Heatran would be beneficial for CAP26, but CAP26 will always want to outspeed Heatran. The problem with that is that CAP26 will need to flex its defenses really well, and dumping all of its EVs into Speed cuts into CAP26's bulk. For reference, Modest Heatran is has an actual speed stat of 253. If CAP26 can hit that stat, it will want to. Thus, I'd argue we want to avoid any Speed stat that's 66 or greater so CAP26 doesn't feel compelled to run all those Speed EVs and a Timid Nature - the problem gets worse as you approach 66 from above (e.g., 66 would be the worst speed stat because CAP26 would actually run max speed EVs with a Timid nature).
I disagree with the assumption that CAP26 will always want to outspeed Modest Heatran if it's between base 66 and 76 Speed. When teambuilding, sacrificing a large chunk of a Pokemon's defensive potential isn't worth just having a chance to outspeed a threat, especially if the meta were to shift back to a stronger mix of Timid Heatrans, as it would be prone to do.

I initially wanted to look in the range of base 66 to 76 Speed in the CAP meta and see what has a pressure relationship with Heatran in there. Unfortunately, the existing mons in that range either take little from Heatran's attacks or would lack a way to threaten it were they to outspeed Tran (i.e. Mollux). The closest there is for a relevant Pokemon is Tapu Bulu, but that's primarily used on Trick Room in CAP. It's worth noting that Choice Band Tapu Bulu universally runs Adamant in OU where Modest Tran is also the heavy favorite, but this wouldn't necessarily suit a CAP meta discussion.

Alternatively, we can look at a different set of Pokemon, specifically Mega Mawile (base 50 Speed) and Hippowdon (base 47 Speed). Hippowdon has the option to outspeed Adamant Mega Mawile at the cost of a hefty amount of bulk, tech that's actually been seen in a few tournament games. However, the vast majority of the time it doesn't do this despite the relevance of Mawile because doing so leaves it crippled versus the other mons it would seek to defensively handle.

The case would be similar for CAP26 - maximizing its effectiveness in a bulk-based role would be more relevant than crippling that role to take a gamble on the nature of an opposing Heatran. CAP26 wouldn't be compelled to outspeed Modest Heatran just because it technically could since it could become irrelevant in whatever else it would want to do, and teambuilding would preference the relevant role (Bulu wallbreaking, Hippowdon walling, etc). From a teambuilding aspect as well, having one mon between Modest and Timid Heatran doesn't constitute relevant prep for Heatran, meaning near-full investment in CAP26's Speed at that point wouldn't be worth it. As for choosing a higher base Speed for CAP26, there are solid benefits--my favorite is that it would require less investment to outspeed Mega Mawile itself, which could end up being very relevant since it would only take 48 EVs to do at base 76 Speed, leaving CAP26's bulk and role effectiveness well intact.

As for your Lele point, I entirely agree. It's not an issue of bulk versus Speed at that point, it's an issue of pushing out DD becoming the optimal choice. I'm in favor of a hard Speed limit of 94, and am more in favor of a soft Speed limit of 76.
 
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Deck Knight

Seize Your Doom
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Could someone explain the 94 hard speed limit thing? There's been near zero suppport for it in the thread up to this point.To get to 94 Speed with thie current Sweepiness limit (and the BSR limit) is to fundamentally defang Doom Desire in favor of being able to donk Heatran with Earth Power unquestioned. It means CAP 26 will choose most often to Max Speed and SpA, not HP and SpA.

Earth Power is not the focus of this project. Doom Desire is. Bulky pivoting has also been decided as a desirable outcome. Outspeeding Heatran approaches ever closer to being an unspecified middling pivot by shoehorning BSR primarily into Sweepiness contributors rather than Tankiness contributors.
 
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Bughouse

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Exactly what Deck said. Doom Desire is the focus. A lower speed to allow a higher SpA is absolutely the correct path.
 

snake_rattler

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Could someone explain the 94 hard speed limit thing? There's been near zero suppport for it in the thread up to this point.To get to 94 Speed with thie current Sweepiness limit (and the BSR limit) is to fundamentally defang Doom Desire in favor of being able to donk Heatran with Earth Power unquestioned. It means CAP 26 will choose most often to Max Speed and SpA, not HP and SpA.
I did this three days ago:

Another number we have to keep in mind is 95. That's Tapu Lele's speed tier. We cannot outspeed, or speed tie with, Tapu Lele, or else CAP26 will definitely want to run a more reliable Steel-type STAB. Thus, I'd place another, more definite "speed limit" at 94. Outspeeding Heatran is a lot easier at this speed tier, but we're approaching relatively fast spreads that might not have the BSR to able to account for the bulk we want for CAP26 to tackle Pokemon like Choice Specs Tapu Lele and Mega Alakazam.
I don't think many people really want to get close to 94. Every stat spread on Discord I've seen hasn't gotten all that close, 76 at the maximum, definitely more lower than that. But the point is that it would be bad for the concept to speed tie with or outspeed Tapu Lele because if you're a Steel-type that can outspeed Tapu Lele you're probably going to want Flash Cannon to just get rid of it immediately, which eats up a moveslot. Is there much harm in having establishing an honestly generous upper bound for CAP26's speed, especially when we've agreed that slower is generally better, and that limit directly affects concept (running Doom Desire instead of Flash Cannon)?
 
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quziel

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Just posting to echo Deck Knight 's post about Special Tankiness (hereafter stank) limits. Put simply, enabling stat spreads that can take a single +0 AoP from either Tapu Lele or Magearna both enables more diverse item choices (Chople), as well as heavily increasing the consistency of this mon (having a mon sometimes die and sometimes not die to an important move is silly). The minimum STank that we need to take a single AoP from Tapu Lele is 206, as shown below.

170 STank:
252 SpA Tapu Lele All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 330-390 (97 - 114.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(This is 68 HP / 130 SpDef, aka 170 STank)

190 STank:
252 SpA Tapu Lele All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 300-354 (88.2 - 104.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(This is 68 HP / 145 SpDef, aka 190 STank)

206 STank:
252 SpA Tapu Lele All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 278-328 (81.7 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(This is 68 HP / 158 SpDef, aka 206 STank)

Given the above calcs, and a love of round numbers, I am petitioning for a raising of the STank limit to 210, and a corresponding BSR increase to 300 or 295, so that people aren't forced to run base 40 attack to make their spreads work.
 
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