Just weighting in on the options between Quantity and Quality. Even if we were to give it three subpar abilities or three amazing ones eventually the Mon will generally stick to the one ability that helps it the most in the current metagame. Very few people run bulletproof :Equilibra: when Levitate makes it immune to one of its weaknesses, turns it into the best spinner in the tier and just generally better in most regards. What we should aim for in my opinion is an ability that assist it in its main goal as well as 1-2 others that have a set and useful niche goal like :Equilibra:. Not trying to jump discussions but even if the 2nd or 3rd ability doesn't fit the concept 100%, as long as the primary fits the criteria. The original purpose of CAP was to better understand the Meta of OU and the core mechanics of the game. That all said, we should focus on Option B. Even if the Ability is strong in a vacuum doesn't mean it will be a strong option on all Pokemon. Levitate is one of the best abilities in the game but almost functionally useless on Rotom-Fan for example. We should focus on making sure CAP27 has Abilities that fit the concept as well as giving it enough options so it isn't static and stale to play. Fun is the other goal of the Create-A-Pokemon and stifling options can be anti-fun imo.
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CAP 27 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion
- Thread starter Quanyails
- Start date
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Just weighting in on the options between Quantity and Quality. Even if we were to give it three subpar abilities or three amazing ones eventually the Mon will generally stick to the one ability that helps it the most in the current metagame. Very few people run bulletproof :Equilibra: when Levitate makes it immune to one of its weaknesses, turns it into the best spinner in the tier and just generally better in most regards. What we should aim for in my opinion is an ability that assist it in its main goal as well as 1-2 others that have a set and useful niche goal like :Equilibra:. Not trying to jump discussions but even if the 2nd or 3rd ability doesn't fit the concept 100%, as long as the primary fits the criteria. The original purpose of CAP was to better understand the Meta of OU and the core mechanics of the game. That all said, we should focus on Option B. Even if the Ability is strong in a vacuum doesn't mean it will be a strong option on all Pokemon. Levitate is one of the best abilities in the game but almost functionally useless on Rotom-Fan for example. We should focus on making sure CAP27 has Abilities that fit the concept as well as giving it enough options so it isn't static and stale to play. Fun is the other goal of the Create-A-Pokemon and stifling options can be anti-fun imo.
Just a note on ability limits: As the process is currently set up, a maximum of two competitive abilities are considered during the CAP Process. The third ability is a flavor ability that ideally has little or no competitive relevance. This became policy after a rather infamous CAP process that exposed a legendary bug in our system.
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Ok, I just want to talk about why I disagree with some of the Abilities bought up.
Regenerator
This is not an Ability that encourages utility. As others have mentioned, this encourages switch-in switch-out play without actually doing anything. This Ability does not give us a reason to stay in and help the team, it just encourages us to switch out.
Intimidate
Another one from the same stock as Regen, but really we can achieve the same effect by adding more physical bulk to CAP 27. Don't see a reason to use this, and it doesn't solve any of the issues with our type.
Magic Bounce
...Can we not even go there? Magic Bounce is just busted, and there would be no way to have Magic Bounce CAP 27 do what we'd like it to do without it being Uber level. Every Magic Bounce user has had some crippling downside or other, be it useless Speed, terrible typing or a lack of defensive utility. Also, Magic Bounce does not solve our issues of having our item removed by pretty much all of our switch-ins and being weak to hazards. It just is "strong" for the sake of being "strong".
Poison Heal
Another one from the same vein of "strong". This reminds me of Snaelstrom, where people suggested this Ability to "solve" its issues (such as Rocks weakness... Sound familiar?) regardless of if it fit the concept or not, and it ended up not working. I know Snael had a bunch of other issues, but they were exaggerated by it having a "good" Ability that didn't synergise with anything it was trying to do. Sure it does a bunch of cool things, but are those things what CAP 27 actually needs?
Magic Guard
With Clefable being as busy as it is making the meta its ***** in OU and CAP, I am honestly amazed that this has got as far as it has. Does it solve our issues? Yes. Does it work? Yes. But let's be real, you could throw Magic Guard onto basically any CAP and it will turn out well (as Krillowatt has handily proven). That's not an issue to stop us choosing Magic Guard. But what is an issue:
CAP 27 @ Life Orb
Magic Guard
(EVs)
Flare Blitz/(insert Fire STAB here)
Draco Meteor
Coverage #1
Coverage #2/Other Dragon STAB
Whoops we just broke the concept by giving it the move all Dragons get and any 3 other attacks. But the real issue here is the stat stage and CAP 27's offenses. With Magic Guard, we will have to assume Life Orb when working out CAP 27's offenses to avoid turning it into a wallbreaker (e.g. It 2HKOing Prim with any coverage is out of the question). And CAP 27 will then be dependent on running Life Orb for damage (remember Clef only has base 95 Spa and Krill has 84/83 offenses), so it won't be able to run anything but Life Orb if it wants to do damage. Which then narrows its sets down somewhat and, guess what, makes it vulnerable to item manipulation, which almost all of our switch-ins do. So even if we were able to make Clefable 2.0 by giving it utility it actually uses, we'd still be vulnerable to having our item removed by our switch-ins, which then makes it very difficult for CAP 27 to threaten anything. So no to Magic Guard please.
Regenerator
This is not an Ability that encourages utility. As others have mentioned, this encourages switch-in switch-out play without actually doing anything. This Ability does not give us a reason to stay in and help the team, it just encourages us to switch out.
Intimidate
Another one from the same stock as Regen, but really we can achieve the same effect by adding more physical bulk to CAP 27. Don't see a reason to use this, and it doesn't solve any of the issues with our type.
Magic Bounce
...Can we not even go there? Magic Bounce is just busted, and there would be no way to have Magic Bounce CAP 27 do what we'd like it to do without it being Uber level. Every Magic Bounce user has had some crippling downside or other, be it useless Speed, terrible typing or a lack of defensive utility. Also, Magic Bounce does not solve our issues of having our item removed by pretty much all of our switch-ins and being weak to hazards. It just is "strong" for the sake of being "strong".
Poison Heal
Another one from the same vein of "strong". This reminds me of Snaelstrom, where people suggested this Ability to "solve" its issues (such as Rocks weakness... Sound familiar?) regardless of if it fit the concept or not, and it ended up not working. I know Snael had a bunch of other issues, but they were exaggerated by it having a "good" Ability that didn't synergise with anything it was trying to do. Sure it does a bunch of cool things, but are those things what CAP 27 actually needs?
Magic Guard
With Clefable being as busy as it is making the meta its ***** in OU and CAP, I am honestly amazed that this has got as far as it has. Does it solve our issues? Yes. Does it work? Yes. But let's be real, you could throw Magic Guard onto basically any CAP and it will turn out well (as Krillowatt has handily proven). That's not an issue to stop us choosing Magic Guard. But what is an issue:
CAP 27 @ Life Orb
Magic Guard
(EVs)
Flare Blitz/(insert Fire STAB here)
Draco Meteor
Coverage #1
Coverage #2/Other Dragon STAB
Whoops we just broke the concept by giving it the move all Dragons get and any 3 other attacks. But the real issue here is the stat stage and CAP 27's offenses. With Magic Guard, we will have to assume Life Orb when working out CAP 27's offenses to avoid turning it into a wallbreaker (e.g. It 2HKOing Prim with any coverage is out of the question). And CAP 27 will then be dependent on running Life Orb for damage (remember Clef only has base 95 Spa and Krill has 84/83 offenses), so it won't be able to run anything but Life Orb if it wants to do damage. Which then narrows its sets down somewhat and, guess what, makes it vulnerable to item manipulation, which almost all of our switch-ins do. So even if we were able to make Clefable 2.0 by giving it utility it actually uses, we'd still be vulnerable to having our item removed by our switch-ins, which then makes it very difficult for CAP 27 to threaten anything. So no to Magic Guard please.
I heavily disagree with your whole post, so I will adress every argument you gave and show why it's not appropriate for CAP27, and for the CAP process in general.
I don't know where you saw that any regenerator Pokemon switches in and out without doing anything. If a pokemon does nothing, then you don't use it. The capacity to come in and out multiple times is exactly what we want for CAP27 to provide the utility it is supposed to provide. While regenerator will for sure restrict the later stages of the process, this is not an argument against it, and this ability is perfectly pro-concept.
Intimidate is indeed similar to Regenerator, as both allow for more comfortable switches. This means that it is also pro-concept.
Even if Magic bounce was busted, which it's not, this isn't an argument.
Edit : After discussing about it on discord and reading Agile Turtle's post I'm convinced that Magic bounce fulfills our concept.
There is no argument here. If you're against an ability, just explain why it's not pro-concept rather than questionning the reasoning behind its proposal. I think Poison heal is pro-concept to an extent, as it gives CAP27 the durability it needs to use support moves while solving the Knock off prevalence problem.
The bolded part shows the only point I agree with here. Your argument is that it would turn into a -weak to knock off- life orb attacker (which is likely) with 4 attacks. If we go Magic guard, which is -as you said it- completely pro-concept, the whole point of the next steps of the process will be to not give CAP27 the coverage it needs to run 4 attacks. Then guess what ? 2 attacks + 2 utility moves is the perfect thing we're willing to create. Being weak to knock off is really the least of our worries.
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I've been really happy with the discussion in general so far, but one post was filled with so many flawed lines of thinking that I have to step in, as I anticipate others will have done before I finish writing this post.
You're misunderstanding how the CAP process works as a whole. Jho made a post about this very thing just a few hours ago:
This is a gross oversimplification and not how Regenerator Pokemon are played in competent games. Regenerator gives you a cushion to use your utility without sinking turns on your own recovery (Defogging with Torn-T, setting Toxic Spikes with Toxapex, Wishing with Alomomola, Knocking or spreading status with Tangrowth, etc), and the momentum gained from the double switching that you do is key to the "What is a support Pokemon?" definition that Jho set in stone at the end of Concept Assessment.
The point of Intimidate beyond shoring up your own ability to switch in is to stick -1 debuffs on opponents, giving your teammates an easier time coming in and either setting up or winning an otherwise losing matchup, again, hitting multiple marks set up in the "What is a support Pokemon?" definition.
You're misunderstanding how the CAP process works as a whole. Jho made a post about this very thing just a few hours ago:
You were getting closer to the types of arguments you should be making at the end of your post when talking about potentially encouraging more offensive sets, but I will leave that discussion up to the rest of the community. Please make sure you're reading the previous posts in the thread and at least the conclusion posts for previous sections.
I largely agree with your entire post, except for this part. Magic Bounce is definitely pro concept. The ability to come in on status moves is not only a free switchin opportunity, it's inherently supportive in deflecting status moves. The taunt immunity is really good for us as well, allowing us to use status moves. It also helps in the matchup against Rotom-H, because now it can't even toxic us.
Magic Bounce is actually really good for us. It provides more switchin opportunities, provides a psuedo status immunity, a taunt immunity, and is inherently supportive for the team providing support by means of status and hazard deflection.
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Re: Knock Off weakness.
Magic Guard mostly exacerbates this from a Process standpoint because there is legitimately no reason not to run Life Orb calcs during stat submissions, Magic Guard biases item so much. The trouble is that 30% differential is immense, and building a utility CAP that can't function offensively without Life Orb is a terrible situation to be locked into. If you build Life Orb in, you run the risk of Knock Off effectively crippling 27, which is something we want to avoid entirely.
Poison Heal actually has a similar issue in that it nearly mandates Toxic Orb rather than Heavy-Duty Boots, and anyone who has played Snaelstrom knows getting that first proc turn requires some level of skill to perform.
Ideally I would like an ability that doesn't pidgeonhole a specific item to guarantee CAP's offensive or defensive prowess. Obviously the pressure for Boots will be high, but high and required unto the point of bending Stat Submission calcs are two different things.
GMars are there any abilities you want us to discuss more or less? Every ability discussion tends to spend a great deal of time on Magic Guard and Regenerator just because they are so inherently amazing, but they do tend to choke other abilities out of discussion time.
Magic Guard mostly exacerbates this from a Process standpoint because there is legitimately no reason not to run Life Orb calcs during stat submissions, Magic Guard biases item so much. The trouble is that 30% differential is immense, and building a utility CAP that can't function offensively without Life Orb is a terrible situation to be locked into. If you build Life Orb in, you run the risk of Knock Off effectively crippling 27, which is something we want to avoid entirely.
Poison Heal actually has a similar issue in that it nearly mandates Toxic Orb rather than Heavy-Duty Boots, and anyone who has played Snaelstrom knows getting that first proc turn requires some level of skill to perform.
Ideally I would like an ability that doesn't pidgeonhole a specific item to guarantee CAP's offensive or defensive prowess. Obviously the pressure for Boots will be high, but high and required unto the point of bending Stat Submission calcs are two different things.
GMars are there any abilities you want us to discuss more or less? Every ability discussion tends to spend a great deal of time on Magic Guard and Regenerator just because they are so inherently amazing, but they do tend to choke other abilities out of discussion time.
I mean I think HDB is pretty much a reality, unless Magic Guard were selected (which carries its own whole slew of problems)
The total list of Pokemon weak to Rocks AND also all other hazards who have been OU in any generation since Rocks came around in Gen IV is pretty small and the only one who primarily fit into a supportive role was Ninetales in BW, who was literally required for Sun, but otherwise terrible.
Pretty much everything else that meets that criteria was a purely offensive like Volcarona, Kyurem-B, Weavile, etc.
Even some Pokemon that are ONLY weak to rocks, not also spikes, etc. are already overwhelmingly running HDB like Rotom-H and Mandibuzz.
I don't think we should be avoiding an ability because it only works with one item, when it's as useful of an item as HDB, which basically every other Fire type runs... Moreover, "item" is not even a stage in CAP, so this shouldn't be seen as railroading later steps.
The total list of Pokemon weak to Rocks AND also all other hazards who have been OU in any generation since Rocks came around in Gen IV is pretty small and the only one who primarily fit into a supportive role was Ninetales in BW, who was literally required for Sun, but otherwise terrible.
Pretty much everything else that meets that criteria was a purely offensive like Volcarona, Kyurem-B, Weavile, etc.
Even some Pokemon that are ONLY weak to rocks, not also spikes, etc. are already overwhelmingly running HDB like Rotom-H and Mandibuzz.
I don't think we should be avoiding an ability because it only works with one item, when it's as useful of an item as HDB, which basically every other Fire type runs... Moreover, "item" is not even a stage in CAP, so this shouldn't be seen as railroading later steps.
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The two abilities I like best so far are Sticky hold and Intimidate due to how they enable this pokemon to switch in and out more frequently. Keeping heavy duty boots gives cap 27 far more durability and allows it to reliably switchin to more pokemon, also giving more unique utility. Intimidate is a particularly good support ability, as it can allow for cap 27 to easily bring in teammates against the weakened pokemon without sacrificing its own offensive or support capabilities.
A couple of other abilities to help with knock off that haven’t been mentioned are justified and static. Justified gives a one time power increase to cap 27 to use its neutral stab combo to dent the opposing team. Unlike other offensive abilities justified does not encourage a solely offensive set and still allows support options, but allows cap 27 to punish knock off in some form.
Static can spread paralysis to Ferrothorn and Clefable which can drastically limit their own ability to take hits and recover, helping teammates like Dragapult break through. This again helps to punish knock off in some form while still allowing this form of counter play to exist.
A couple of other abilities to help with knock off that haven’t been mentioned are justified and static. Justified gives a one time power increase to cap 27 to use its neutral stab combo to dent the opposing team. Unlike other offensive abilities justified does not encourage a solely offensive set and still allows support options, but allows cap 27 to punish knock off in some form.
Static can spread paralysis to Ferrothorn and Clefable which can drastically limit their own ability to take hits and recover, helping teammates like Dragapult break through. This again helps to punish knock off in some form while still allowing this form of counter play to exist.
I'm not really sure about Magic Guard. Although it is arguably one of the best offensive and defensive abilities in the game and is definitely a pro-concept one, Magic Guard is, of all the possibilities mentioned, the one that most impacts the list of threats. In addition to allowing free entry into hazards without requiring the use of hdb, which considerably mitigates our worrying vs Knock Off confrontation, it also provides immunity to Toxic, which would be probably the best defensive way of dealing with CAP27. From that point on, Magic Guard definitely paves our way against Switch-ins, like Ferrothorn and Zeraora, but it also disables one of our counters: Toxapex. Without being able to harm CAP27 knocking off its item or poisoning it, the Pex is completely tied up. Even though it may spam some Scalds or a probable TSpikes, the killer star gives CAP27 more openness for utility use than the other way around. And even if someone says that denying recovery to CAP27 would be an appropriate measure, I believe that turning a Counter into a Switch-in is something that should not be pursued in no way. I would like someone to comment here because I don't have a closed opinion yet and I would like to see someone else's point of view. For now, that is my point.
Also, following this thought I address the same concern as for Magic Bounce, Immunity and Poison Heal (which I initially suggested), as they can demonstrate a similar result to Magic Guard, to a lesser extent since they don't have the same point with Knock Off. But still, (pseudo)immunity to poison can have an adverse impact on our threatlist.
Also, following this thought I address the same concern as for Magic Bounce, Immunity and Poison Heal (which I initially suggested), as they can demonstrate a similar result to Magic Guard, to a lesser extent since they don't have the same point with Knock Off. But still, (pseudo)immunity to poison can have an adverse impact on our threatlist.
I have to say that I'm of the agreement with Deck Knight re Magic Guard. The concept is to create an offensive supporting utility pokemon. Magic Guard instantly throws a +30% Damage boost in with Life Orb, while making us particularly susceptible to Knock Off, which is something that thus mon is likely to want to switch into: i.e Ferrothorn. This serves to limit what we can come in on, as much as we are wanting to be able to pivot, even if it provides Immunity to Rocks, Spikes, Toxic etc.
Sticky Hold feels like an excellent fit: It fits in damage boost with Choice Sets or Life Orb, it has defensive utility with Boots, and I'm not going to be able to say anything new that hasn't been said already.
Intimidate and Drought I am personally less sold on despite their ability to support the team. Intimidate just feels like a generically useful ability that can be justified for any CAPMon pre-Artwork stage, and Drought is something that keeps cropping up for CAPmon under the vague guises of 'support', but how much this is actualizing the concept is questionable. Both feel just like very comfy, and largely uninspired generic abilities. Drought in particular messes with our Checks: the three mentioned water types secondary stabs can only hit neutrally, which with a burn Immunity means that it can't be Scald Burn Fished, and makes us pseudo Resist Water. Intimidate actually potentially works against CAP when one of the switching has Mirror Armour as a potential ability also.
For my suggestions:
- Adaptability: This improves the damage match up of STAB, allowing the two Stabs to act as their own coverage. This helps enable definite utility as it can run 2 attacks +2 Supports much more comfortably.
- No Guard, Compound Eyes: I prefer the former - it helps Role Compression: I don't want to poll jump but there are a number of team support options in the potential move pool which have a restricted accuracy. While No Guard comes with a definite downside, Compound Eyes at least recreates that accuracy for ~75% Accuracy and above moves like Draco Meteor and Fire Blast. This helps guarantee that the active support provided CAP27 is hitting every time.
- Stamina: this enables CAP27 to switch into the physical attackers on our switch in list and just flat out force the switch unless it's bposted defense allows then to snowball. This gives CAP27 the breathing room to provide a team buff pressure free, while also giving it the opportunity to act offensively should the opponents actions stack defense buffs in CAP27. As there is then a defined counter: Special Attackers, and the very strong physical attackers like Terrakion. It helps a bit with Knock off spam as well: if your Knock Off despite doing neutral, but Boosted damage has the ability to put the physical resistance of CAP27 through the roof, you may want to hang fire on spamming it in every potential switch in.
- Marvel Scale: To a lesser extent, this works like Stamina, but enables it to work as a Status Absorber as well. It is slightly devalued due to CAP27 having less ability for it to trigger due to Burn Immunity already, however.
Sticky Hold feels like an excellent fit: It fits in damage boost with Choice Sets or Life Orb, it has defensive utility with Boots, and I'm not going to be able to say anything new that hasn't been said already.
Intimidate and Drought I am personally less sold on despite their ability to support the team. Intimidate just feels like a generically useful ability that can be justified for any CAPMon pre-Artwork stage, and Drought is something that keeps cropping up for CAPmon under the vague guises of 'support', but how much this is actualizing the concept is questionable. Both feel just like very comfy, and largely uninspired generic abilities. Drought in particular messes with our Checks: the three mentioned water types secondary stabs can only hit neutrally, which with a burn Immunity means that it can't be Scald Burn Fished, and makes us pseudo Resist Water. Intimidate actually potentially works against CAP when one of the switching has Mirror Armour as a potential ability also.
For my suggestions:
- Adaptability: This improves the damage match up of STAB, allowing the two Stabs to act as their own coverage. This helps enable definite utility as it can run 2 attacks +2 Supports much more comfortably.
- No Guard, Compound Eyes: I prefer the former - it helps Role Compression: I don't want to poll jump but there are a number of team support options in the potential move pool which have a restricted accuracy. While No Guard comes with a definite downside, Compound Eyes at least recreates that accuracy for ~75% Accuracy and above moves like Draco Meteor and Fire Blast. This helps guarantee that the active support provided CAP27 is hitting every time.
- Stamina: this enables CAP27 to switch into the physical attackers on our switch in list and just flat out force the switch unless it's bposted defense allows then to snowball. This gives CAP27 the breathing room to provide a team buff pressure free, while also giving it the opportunity to act offensively should the opponents actions stack defense buffs in CAP27. As there is then a defined counter: Special Attackers, and the very strong physical attackers like Terrakion. It helps a bit with Knock off spam as well: if your Knock Off despite doing neutral, but Boosted damage has the ability to put the physical resistance of CAP27 through the roof, you may want to hang fire on spamming it in every potential switch in.
- Marvel Scale: To a lesser extent, this works like Stamina, but enables it to work as a Status Absorber as well. It is slightly devalued due to CAP27 having less ability for it to trigger due to Burn Immunity already, however.
1) Given CAP 27's typing and the first look we got at its future place in the metagame through threats discussion, should the primary ability focus on shoring up defensive utility or enhancing offensive presence?
I think that we should look primarily at support/defensive abilities, as our typing alone already give us a decent offensive presence. This doesn't mean that it shouldn't have offensive uses, as many abilities can both provide with offense and defense at the same time, but we should look for ones that at least provide us with some defensive/utility options.
2) What abilities would be the most useful for improving CAP 27's utility? / 3) Are there abilities that can give or enable CAP 27 to use the type of utility options discussed in Concept Assessment?
As many of our best options for primary ability precisely because of the utility they provide, I'll be answering these questions together. There are a ton of different abilities that could improve our current CAP 27, as this project has been very open-ended up to this point, but I think we should be looking for ones in at least one of these categories:
Increases survivability: Abilities that somehow increases the amount of times we can come in are one of the best ways to improve CAP 27's supposed role, as they directly translate into more chances to use utility. They will also make us less dependent. on recovery moves, making us lose less momentum and potentially freeing a moveslot.
Team utility: Not many abilities can directly provide something for our team, but the ones that can would help us our concept without having to sacrifice a moveslot, and some of them can do so while providing unique forms of support. Even if the support provided by these abilities can be replicated to an extent using moves, having innate utility without using any moveslot is incredibly valuable are makes us able to hold more utility into a single set.
Status: Inflicting status is one of the major ways in which we can accomplish our concept, so abilities that causes these kind of effects are excellent fits for CAP 27's ability.
Now, here's some abilities that fits the first two categories. I'll try to make another post focusing on status-based abilities later.
Regenerator: This ability always appears in this stage, and for a good reason, as it's one of the best generically good abilities in the game. In the particular case of CAP 27, being able to heal without losing momentum by using Recover not only increases our survivability, but it also buys us more turns to use support moves.
Magic Guard: It has a lot of different effects, and while none of them are particularly incredible, they all have positive impact. Being immune to entry hazards is the biggest advantages, as it make us not as dependent on Heavy-Duty Boots. Unfortunately, Magic Guard+Life Orb is so good that is pretty hard to imagine CAP 27 using any other item, and the loss of power would still leave us vulnerable to Knock Off, at least to an extent. Being immune to Poison damage and having a recoil-less Flare Blitz are excellent effects that we can use.
Magic Bounce: This is an incredibly versatile and powerful ability, as it protects us from any status moves making us immune to common moves like Toxic, Thunder Wave and Taunt, making it a good defensive option. However, I think the most crucial and interesting aspect of this ability is bouncing back entry hazards, as that is something that can directly benefit our teammates. CAP 27 doesn't have an optimal matchup against hazard setters, as some like Terrakion will probably beat us in practice, but it should (according to the threat discussion) pressure many others like Kommo-o, Mollux, and Seismitoad. Even if we can't completely counter them, simply deterring them from clicking SR can still have a huge impact in the game and help ourselves and out team a lot, something that makes this ability very pro-concept.
Grassy Surge: This is offers lots of interesting effects. Boosting Grass-type moves is not really useful for us, but it could make threats like Jumbao or Necturna. Halving the power of Earthquake sounds really powerful in theory, but most Pokemon could switch it for High Horsepower without losing much (the only common threats with EQ that don't learn HH are Kommo-o, Arghonaut, and Syclant). The most important part of this is the added recovery, as that increases the survivability of both CAP 27 and its teammates, which is very useful for our concept.
My personal favorites are Magic Bounce and Grassy Terrain, as they fit into both categories, providing both direct team support and increased survivability, which makes them ideal for our concept. Magic Guard and Regenerator are good options too, but having CAP 27 provide direct support with its ability alone just seems too good to pass up in my opinion.
I think that we should look primarily at support/defensive abilities, as our typing alone already give us a decent offensive presence. This doesn't mean that it shouldn't have offensive uses, as many abilities can both provide with offense and defense at the same time, but we should look for ones that at least provide us with some defensive/utility options.
2) What abilities would be the most useful for improving CAP 27's utility? / 3) Are there abilities that can give or enable CAP 27 to use the type of utility options discussed in Concept Assessment?
As many of our best options for primary ability precisely because of the utility they provide, I'll be answering these questions together. There are a ton of different abilities that could improve our current CAP 27, as this project has been very open-ended up to this point, but I think we should be looking for ones in at least one of these categories:
Increases survivability: Abilities that somehow increases the amount of times we can come in are one of the best ways to improve CAP 27's supposed role, as they directly translate into more chances to use utility. They will also make us less dependent. on recovery moves, making us lose less momentum and potentially freeing a moveslot.
Team utility: Not many abilities can directly provide something for our team, but the ones that can would help us our concept without having to sacrifice a moveslot, and some of them can do so while providing unique forms of support. Even if the support provided by these abilities can be replicated to an extent using moves, having innate utility without using any moveslot is incredibly valuable are makes us able to hold more utility into a single set.
Status: Inflicting status is one of the major ways in which we can accomplish our concept, so abilities that causes these kind of effects are excellent fits for CAP 27's ability.
Now, here's some abilities that fits the first two categories. I'll try to make another post focusing on status-based abilities later.
Regenerator: This ability always appears in this stage, and for a good reason, as it's one of the best generically good abilities in the game. In the particular case of CAP 27, being able to heal without losing momentum by using Recover not only increases our survivability, but it also buys us more turns to use support moves.
Magic Guard: It has a lot of different effects, and while none of them are particularly incredible, they all have positive impact. Being immune to entry hazards is the biggest advantages, as it make us not as dependent on Heavy-Duty Boots. Unfortunately, Magic Guard+Life Orb is so good that is pretty hard to imagine CAP 27 using any other item, and the loss of power would still leave us vulnerable to Knock Off, at least to an extent. Being immune to Poison damage and having a recoil-less Flare Blitz are excellent effects that we can use.
Magic Bounce: This is an incredibly versatile and powerful ability, as it protects us from any status moves making us immune to common moves like Toxic, Thunder Wave and Taunt, making it a good defensive option. However, I think the most crucial and interesting aspect of this ability is bouncing back entry hazards, as that is something that can directly benefit our teammates. CAP 27 doesn't have an optimal matchup against hazard setters, as some like Terrakion will probably beat us in practice, but it should (according to the threat discussion) pressure many others like Kommo-o, Mollux, and Seismitoad. Even if we can't completely counter them, simply deterring them from clicking SR can still have a huge impact in the game and help ourselves and out team a lot, something that makes this ability very pro-concept.
Grassy Surge: This is offers lots of interesting effects. Boosting Grass-type moves is not really useful for us, but it could make threats like Jumbao or Necturna. Halving the power of Earthquake sounds really powerful in theory, but most Pokemon could switch it for High Horsepower without losing much (the only common threats with EQ that don't learn HH are Kommo-o, Arghonaut, and Syclant). The most important part of this is the added recovery, as that increases the survivability of both CAP 27 and its teammates, which is very useful for our concept.
My personal favorites are Magic Bounce and Grassy Terrain, as they fit into both categories, providing both direct team support and increased survivability, which makes them ideal for our concept. Magic Guard and Regenerator are good options too, but having CAP 27 provide direct support with its ability alone just seems too good to pass up in my opinion.
Ok, thanks for taking the time to point out my mistakes. Reading back over it, it is a post I'm not particularly proud of. I'll probably spend a bit more time lurking before posting again, feel free to just delete it if you like.
I think this is the main argument against MG, aside from being able to tackle Pex, which should be a Counter/Check.
Of course Magic guard provides so much utility at once, that it is hard to disregard it. Being able to switch in on hazards without damage, absorbing status and increasing our damage output are all things that CAP27 wants.
But building a mon around an ability that is always run with life orb - except for some Clefable sets - which also will have to switch into knock offs during a Game, will be possibly not achievable, without either making it very strong - so it doesn’t fear loosing life orb - or so susceptible to knock, that it will fear switching in on many of the Pokémon it is required to check as per threats assessment.
There are different ways to achieve MG usefulness.
We will always calculate to hit hard enough, what we need to hit, regardless of life orb. We need to hit harder? Just give it more power during stats.
Hardhitting recoilless STAB is also possible For physically as Well as specially inclined builds.
We want to switch in on hazards?we can slap on some boots or make it easier for CAP27 to heal itself.
Absorbing status? There are many different possibilities for that too.
While no other option will achieve all utility MG provides at once, other paths dont put us in such a weird spot during stats and will still provide something we want.
Whoops forgot about that. Since we are limited to 2 competitive abilities that kind of changes my ideas on quantity vs quality of ability.
Thank you for your reply Karoshi. I def agree with this. CAPs in general should be focused on fun and not be static. Its just been a bit hard for me to balance fun with competitive balance. In general, I like it when CAPs are very versatile and can fulfil a concept in multiple ways. Especially in 27's case because team support comes in many different ways.
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Heads up, reason this is 2 separate posts is because the things im addressing in each post are very different.
ModEdit: Merging them anyway, provided a break line instead.
Edit: Totally forgot about break lines existing. That works to.
On that note, Im going weigh in and give some thoughts on some abilities people have been posting and pitch another ability that hasn't been discussed here yet.
Drought: Setting up Weather is a form of team support that provides offensive benefits and utility which to me feels very pro-concept. IT enhances offensive pressure and defensive utility while supporting teammates with weather. Offensively, a free boost to Fire STAB's, no charge solar beam, and free dmg on :Mollux: are great. On the side of defensive utility, a temporary resistance to water moves, increased recovery from moves like Moonlight. On top of that, Sun support for its teammates is very good. My issue with this ability is that we already have 2 Sun setting CAPs in :Jumbao: and :Malaconda: . To be fair, Mala is ass but still another sun setter seems a bit clogging. There is also risk that the extra firepower might make 27 to overbearing causing it to become primarily a wallbreaker (which is against concept. Personally fine with 27 having the option of running a wall breaker set but when it becomes the most viable set, then it becomes off concept). While weather setting is not explicitly stated as a form utility, I disagree. Setting weather is a form of team support that has utility.
Grassy Terrain: First off, if Grassy Surge has been removed from the game (no pokemon currently has the ability except Rilla line but that's unreleased) can it be chosen as an ability? If we ignore that, then this ability is like Drought in that it supports teammates while enhancing offensive pressure (potentially) and defensive utility. Offensively, free STAB on grass moves is nice. Some of 27's checks like Terrak, Hippo, or T Tar are now wary of switching in on 27 which is a potential concern. Grassy Terrain also improves defensive utility by giving it a temporary resistance against EQ and recovery for both 27 and its teammates. It also supports teammates by setting up a terrain which is basically non-existent in CAP right now. The small thing I have is that the terrain opponents hp which takes away some offensive pressure from 27.
Terrain setting is not explicitly stated as a form utility, but I disagree. Team support comes in many forms, setting terrain is one of them.
Compound Eyes: Prefer this ability over No Guard because it means opponents moves still have a chance of miss and Compound Eyes provides a similar functionality. Making powerful moves more consistent. This ability does not inherently provide defensive utility, but its offensive presence is really high. Perfect accurate Meteor and Fire Blast, 97.5 accurate Dragon Rush and Sleep Powder, etc. means 27 can abuse high power STAB moves but minimize the risk of missing or getting rid of a chance to miss at all. Having more accurate moves makes certain moves more viable but my main issue with picking this ability is that its almost purely offensive.
No Guard does offer 100% accurate Inferno. That alone is awfully tempting.
Technician: Another ability that at first glance, increases offensive pressure and that's it, but it does a little bit more than that. Like Compound Eyes, it makes moves thought to be unviable a lot better. Like making :Breloom: and :Scizor: priority hit harder or scaring opponents with a potential STAB 5 hit Bullet Seed. But instead of making high power moves consistent, it makes low power moves hit harder. For Dragon-types, Dragon Breath is 90BP with a 30% chance of Para, Dragon Tail still phazes but does a chunk more dmg, and Breaking Swipe is 90 BP with a 100% chance of -1 atk. To bad it does not offer much for Fire Type moves. For an example of this, look at Smok. Its not bad, but I think an ability that shores up defensive utility and increases offensive pressure gives the best of both worlds for 27 and Tech doesn't have enough defensive utility.
As for another ability I want to bring up, consider Neutralizing Gas. As a SSBB player, Akir/Parasect's neutralizing spores is an amazing ability. So many SSBB pokemon rely on their ability so Para disabling them is awesome. While custom abilities are banned, Neutralizing Gas is the exact same thing only its the signature ability of a classy gentlemen Sir Bong (aka :Weezing-Galar).
Like Trace, its quite matchup dependent and doesn't really support our teammates, but its a great utility ability that can make 27's job of pressuring and supporting teammates a lot better. Here are some examples against some S-B+ viability ranked Pokemon.
:Clefable: , disabling magic guard means it takes entry hazard dmg if it comes in on 27 and takes residual dmg from Toxic of Burns which really helps in the Clef matchup.
:Equilibra:/:Rotom-Wash:/Levitators: They take spikes dmg and need to respect ground moves (assuming CAP 27 learns any ground moves).
:Syclant: takes SR dmg if it comes in on 27.
:Colossoil: loses atk boost from Guts and cant rebound moves.
:Mollux: needs to respect water moves (assuming CAP 27 has any water moves).
:Aurumoth: now risks missing attacks.
:Bisharp: cant get a free boost from something like Defog or Fire Lash.
That being said, I don't know if this ability is the best answer to the questions GMars laid out. Nor am I to confident about this ability being a great primary. Just wanted to give some food for thought. I will likely bring this ability up again during discussion of secondary ability because this ability seems better in that role. Huge thanks to anyone who actually reads this long ass post.
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I mostly agree with the above sentiments in relation to Magic Guard. While it's more defensive aspects may seem appealing for a SR-weak support, I think that its interaction with Life Orb might encourage all-out attacker builds that are vulnerable to Knock Off, therefore shifting our role from offensive support to carefully-brought-in wallbreaker. One partial solution to this problem might be in the movepool stage: if CAP 27 has zero good moves for Life Orb to amplify other than its 2 STABs, it could still want to run supportive sets (with an end result something like Flare Blitz/EQ/Rocks/Toxic Smokomodo). This wouldn't alleviate the vulnerability to Knock Off but it would ensure that we stay a supportive mon.
The other ability I want to briefly comment on is Grassy Surge. Between the fact that it would not boost either of our STABs and that its damage amplification has been reduced to 30% this gen, I do not see a Bulu/Kartana situation (in which Grassy Terrain is run for its offensive benefit to a teammate) being particularly achievable for CAP 27 and a given Grass-type teammate. Gen 7 was a lighting-in-a-bottle moment in which Grass became a feasible wallbreaking and sweeping type due to Bulu and Kartana's extreme stats and lack of other useful STAB options. I don't think we could replicate it with a Fire/Dragon and Scarf Jumbao or whatever. I think it is far more likely that a CAP 27 would benefit defensive teams with its Grassy Terrain than offensive ones, and therefore I don't see it as a great option for an offensive support.
I don't know why anyone is concerned about how certain abilities might effect the stats stage. Like so what? It's not bad thing and should not be treated like it is. I know CAP tends to be really overzealous when it comes to stats but this is just silly. Not a fan of the thinking that Magic Guard means we have to calc for life orb as if we shouldn't be doing that anyway.
The argument about still being knock off susceptible with Magic Guard is silly as well. Most abilities have us knock off susceptible regardless, it's not suddenly worse with magic guard. And in terms of losing Life Orb vs losing Heavy Duty Boots, losing life orb doesn't affect our switchin ability that allows us to provide more support. Magic Guard also doesn't necessarily lock us into Life Orb either, it just strongly encourages it. Just as other abilities don't necessarily lock us into HDB even though our typing strongly encourages it.
I think for the most part people have been over obsessed with what held item we have, and have given held items way more weight in this discussion than they need.
That's not to say that more freedom of choice when it comes to held item isn't a good thing for us though. And I think abilities like Regenerator and Magic Bounce help in that regard, even though they would still largely prefer boots. Regenerator in that it overall increases longevity so it's easier to run things like life orb even, and it makes CAP fear hazards less. Magic Bounce discouraging the opponent from clicking on hazards gives CAP a little leeway to run something other than HDB too.
Some thoughts on recently brought up abilities:
Not a fan of this one, I'm not super concerned with the damage we're doing with our STABs at this point, and our typing already pretty much eliminates any need for coverage. There are other abilities that do improve our damage output while also helping us provide support so Adaptability isn't something I see as being very useful for us at all.
This one is pretty interesting to me, though I'm not really sold on it. It's much like cotton down in that it doesn't do anything to help us switch in, but it could heavily affect things once in battle. I'm pretty curious on how it might affect certain matchups, especially if you switch in on the right move and it boosts your defense to make moves that might normally threaten us a lot less threatening.
This is one of those abilities that is definitely very limited in what it does for us, but that's not a bad thing, and I don't think abilities like that should be discounted just because they don't do all of the things abilities like magic guard or regenerator do. I like the idea of making moves like fire blast, and especially dragon rush actually reliable. Making status moves like WoW, Toxic, Thunder Wave perfectly accurate is helpful, as is improving the accuracy of other support moves like dragon tail. It's not a huge difference, especially when you consider a lot of these moves aren't necessarily inaccurate anyway, but it's still pretty helpful nonetheless.
Technician is definitely another one of those abilities that is quite limited in what it does for us, but I'm still a fan. One of the bad things about our type offensively, even with our good neutral coverage, is that we lack a good really strong dragon STAB to hit things with (besides Outrage and Draco Meteor which come with some hefty downsides, especially outrage), and this is exacerbated by the fact that dragon doesn't hit anything super effectively besides itself. Technician helps to patch that up by lifting breaking swipe and dragon breath to a more threatening power level, which I think is really helpful especially with their secondary effects, and it also turns dual chop into a really good attacking move (60BP x 2). It doesn't do much for any fire moves, but that's okay because Fire Lash/Flare Blitz/Lava Plume/Fire Blast are already really good for us. Technician is definitely limited in what it does, but I do think it's still pretty cool for us anyway.
The argument about still being knock off susceptible with Magic Guard is silly as well. Most abilities have us knock off susceptible regardless, it's not suddenly worse with magic guard. And in terms of losing Life Orb vs losing Heavy Duty Boots, losing life orb doesn't affect our switchin ability that allows us to provide more support. Magic Guard also doesn't necessarily lock us into Life Orb either, it just strongly encourages it. Just as other abilities don't necessarily lock us into HDB even though our typing strongly encourages it.
I think for the most part people have been over obsessed with what held item we have, and have given held items way more weight in this discussion than they need.
That's not to say that more freedom of choice when it comes to held item isn't a good thing for us though. And I think abilities like Regenerator and Magic Bounce help in that regard, even though they would still largely prefer boots. Regenerator in that it overall increases longevity so it's easier to run things like life orb even, and it makes CAP fear hazards less. Magic Bounce discouraging the opponent from clicking on hazards gives CAP a little leeway to run something other than HDB too.
Some thoughts on recently brought up abilities:
Not a fan of this one, I'm not super concerned with the damage we're doing with our STABs at this point, and our typing already pretty much eliminates any need for coverage. There are other abilities that do improve our damage output while also helping us provide support so Adaptability isn't something I see as being very useful for us at all.
This one is pretty interesting to me, though I'm not really sold on it. It's much like cotton down in that it doesn't do anything to help us switch in, but it could heavily affect things once in battle. I'm pretty curious on how it might affect certain matchups, especially if you switch in on the right move and it boosts your defense to make moves that might normally threaten us a lot less threatening.
This is one of those abilities that is definitely very limited in what it does for us, but that's not a bad thing, and I don't think abilities like that should be discounted just because they don't do all of the things abilities like magic guard or regenerator do. I like the idea of making moves like fire blast, and especially dragon rush actually reliable. Making status moves like WoW, Toxic, Thunder Wave perfectly accurate is helpful, as is improving the accuracy of other support moves like dragon tail. It's not a huge difference, especially when you consider a lot of these moves aren't necessarily inaccurate anyway, but it's still pretty helpful nonetheless.
Technician is definitely another one of those abilities that is quite limited in what it does for us, but I'm still a fan. One of the bad things about our type offensively, even with our good neutral coverage, is that we lack a good really strong dragon STAB to hit things with (besides Outrage and Draco Meteor which come with some hefty downsides, especially outrage), and this is exacerbated by the fact that dragon doesn't hit anything super effectively besides itself. Technician helps to patch that up by lifting breaking swipe and dragon breath to a more threatening power level, which I think is really helpful especially with their secondary effects, and it also turns dual chop into a really good attacking move (60BP x 2). It doesn't do much for any fire moves, but that's okay because Fire Lash/Flare Blitz/Lava Plume/Fire Blast are already really good for us. Technician is definitely limited in what it does, but I do think it's still pretty cool for us anyway.
There’s lots of good discussion in this thread already, but I wanted to give my thoughts on a few abilities. First and arguably most important, I feel like picking Magic Guard would be a serious mistake. While obviously pro-concept and very synergistic when it comes to our typing and the sort of mons we’re trying to operate against, the existence of life orb forces us down a specific path that probably isn’t where we want to end up with 27. Yes, we want to be on the offensive side of support, but opening up the door to life orb is a very slippery slope. Not to mention the correct conclusion that this only exacerbates the knock problem that we’re in a position to solve.
Serene Grace is obviously a very good ability, and fits the concept perfectly. The offensive power of status-causing STAB moves is well-documented (see Heatran, any Scald user). But the ability to reliably spread status through not one but multiple STAB attacks is unprecedented, and leaves our other moveslots open for non-status support moves. This could be a very interesting take on what we’re trying to do; even when throwing out attacks, the support doesn’t stop.
I’m honestly a huge fan of Sticky Hold, and I feel like it is being highly undervalued right now. As previously mentioned in this thread, it would give 27 the very unique niche of absorbing both trick and knock. It’s not flashy, but combined with the assumed boots it’s deceptively powerful and immediately gives 27 a role that can’t be filled by any current Pokémon.
Intimidate is another intriguing option, as it allows us to more reasonably handle some of the physical dragon-types we’re looking to check, as well as giving us a better shot against unresisted moves from mons like Zeraora. It will undoubtedly make us considerably worse at being able to switch into Bisharp, but the general increase in physical bulk and momentum gained from switches enhances our ability to support in other areas. However, it is very important to note that Intimidate effectively locks us into using it as an ability, as it forces us to choose our stat distribution with the assumption of having Intimidate, effectively limiting the use of our second ability; if we tailor our physical bulk with in mind, we may find ourselves far too soft to certain mons we should beat if we take our secondary ability. Care must also be taken to ensure we’re still properly threatened by Earthquake and Stone Edge users.
Lastly, I wanted to bring attention to the potential combination of Serene Grace and Sticky Hold for abilities, as it gives 27 much more flexible teambuilding opportunities. Want the ability to reliably spread status through attacks? Serene Grace has your back, though at the cost of being able to soak knock and, through extension, making us considerably softer to hazards than the alternative. Sticky Hold gives us permanent hazards immunity and lets us eat knock, though we might need to look elsewhere for reliable status spreading (like a 2 attack, wisp, support move set), or forgo it in favor of a different setup. Maybe Serene Grace is a special set with Lava Plume and Dragon Breath, while Sticky Hold is a mixed set that uses Fire Blast/Flamethrower to roast steels trying to eat our Dragon stab and uses a something like Dragon Claw to provide pure offensive pressure or Dragon Tail to phaze while providing support outside of status (not trying to polljump by including moves, just using them as an example of how we can present different solutions to the problems 27 will face). The important takeaway here is that having multiple options is nothing but good for a support and utility pokemon, and it lets us approach the common problem from two different directions as well as giving us versatility in a metagame that favors catching the opponent by surprise.
Edit: a typo
Serene Grace is obviously a very good ability, and fits the concept perfectly. The offensive power of status-causing STAB moves is well-documented (see Heatran, any Scald user). But the ability to reliably spread status through not one but multiple STAB attacks is unprecedented, and leaves our other moveslots open for non-status support moves. This could be a very interesting take on what we’re trying to do; even when throwing out attacks, the support doesn’t stop.
I’m honestly a huge fan of Sticky Hold, and I feel like it is being highly undervalued right now. As previously mentioned in this thread, it would give 27 the very unique niche of absorbing both trick and knock. It’s not flashy, but combined with the assumed boots it’s deceptively powerful and immediately gives 27 a role that can’t be filled by any current Pokémon.
Intimidate is another intriguing option, as it allows us to more reasonably handle some of the physical dragon-types we’re looking to check, as well as giving us a better shot against unresisted moves from mons like Zeraora. It will undoubtedly make us considerably worse at being able to switch into Bisharp, but the general increase in physical bulk and momentum gained from switches enhances our ability to support in other areas. However, it is very important to note that Intimidate effectively locks us into using it as an ability, as it forces us to choose our stat distribution with the assumption of having Intimidate, effectively limiting the use of our second ability; if we tailor our physical bulk with in mind, we may find ourselves far too soft to certain mons we should beat if we take our secondary ability. Care must also be taken to ensure we’re still properly threatened by Earthquake and Stone Edge users.
Lastly, I wanted to bring attention to the potential combination of Serene Grace and Sticky Hold for abilities, as it gives 27 much more flexible teambuilding opportunities. Want the ability to reliably spread status through attacks? Serene Grace has your back, though at the cost of being able to soak knock and, through extension, making us considerably softer to hazards than the alternative. Sticky Hold gives us permanent hazards immunity and lets us eat knock, though we might need to look elsewhere for reliable status spreading (like a 2 attack, wisp, support move set), or forgo it in favor of a different setup. Maybe Serene Grace is a special set with Lava Plume and Dragon Breath, while Sticky Hold is a mixed set that uses Fire Blast/Flamethrower to roast steels trying to eat our Dragon stab and uses a something like Dragon Claw to provide pure offensive pressure or Dragon Tail to phaze while providing support outside of status (not trying to polljump by including moves, just using them as an example of how we can present different solutions to the problems 27 will face). The important takeaway here is that having multiple options is nothing but good for a support and utility pokemon, and it lets us approach the common problem from two different directions as well as giving us versatility in a metagame that favors catching the opponent by surprise.
Edit: a typo
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Would it be worthwhile at all to discuss Screen Cleaner as a potential ability? I mentioned it over on the Discord at one point, but competitive discussion isn't exactly my forté, and I doubt I could make as good a case for it as well as other people could if it's an ability worth considering. I know screens aren't exactly common in the current metagame, but it was one of the first abilities I thought of when Offensive Utility was voted in, so I was just wondering if there was any room for adding it to the conversation at hand.
Realistically, discussing two abilities in totality is a bit beyond the scope of a primary ability thread because it's a psuedo-poll jump.
That said, having contributed a number of stat speads and winning or placing high with them, and given one of our pressure targets is the LO Clefable set I can tell you the general trend of 27 is going to be sets with some level of general durability which will allow 27 at least 2-5 attacks per game with proper play and counterplay. Lava Plume and Dragon Breath have high enough effect percentages to be somewhat reliable as status affliction under regular circumstances. Your opponent is never going to know if it was Serene Grace or just hitting the status range.
Sticky Hold in conjunction with almost any other ability (not so much MGuard if hazards are up, Regen is only revealed if 27 suddenly gets healthier after taking damage) is going create a situation where your opponent is unsure of using Knock Off while 27 is in. Dark-types will still use it for the power, but utility user Knock Offs would make a suboptimal play going for an ability check instead of their STAB or coverage.
I'm not one to discourage, but this suggestion is a little left field.
While I genuinely hope that screens becomes a thing when the DLC drops (c'mon Galarian Articuno, don't let me Down in making Hail viable), there isn't yet the call for Screen Breaking to be a viable supporting niche to warrant it to be a primary ability. Screen Breaking can be dealt with during the move pool stage then if needed however.
This is definitely more of a Flavour ability.
I'm not against sticky hold, but I think its usefulness is being largely overstated, when in reality it falls more in the category of more limited usefulness for us. Sticky hold really only helps against Zeraora and Ferrothorn, while also not even making CAP a good knock absorber. Dark hits neutrally and sticky hold means 97.5 base power knock off on it forever, so it can only really absorb knocks from more passive mons. And it does not help that a lot of knock users hit really hard and can likely hit CAP27 for huge damage with other moves if no STAB on knock. The item retention against matchups with Zeraora and Ferrothorn is still helpful though so I won't say sticky hold is a bad ability for us, but it has been overhyped in this thread.
I'm not such a fan of Magic Guard. I cannot deny that access to recoilless moves, hazard immunity on a Stealth Rock-weak mon, and Toxic immunity are useful for CAP27. However, I don't like how it forces us to think about CAP27 in stats stage. If we base all of our future offensive stats around the assumption that CAP27 WILL be running Life Orb with Magic Guard, then I feel like CAP27 will be underwhelming offensively when it doesn't run Life Orb. Let's say a Magic Guard CAP27 is manageable a decent offensive stat with Life Orb. We base defensive calcs and speed around the remaining BSR available. Well, when it decides not to run Life Orb, and say, Leftovers, now it's a lot less offensive. In my mind, CAP27 should have a baseline offensive power around running Heavy-Duty Boots, a standard non-damage boosting item that it's likely to run, and then execute some sort of tradeoff in its item slot if it wants to gain MORE power. This is how most offensive Pokemon act, which covers the offensive support Pokemon as well. For a non-Magic Guard CAP27, if it wants to run a damage-boosting item, it will have to give up Heavy-Duty Boots, which represents a severe cut in survivability, as now it will take all damage from hazards, including 25% from Stealth Rock. For Magic Guard though, it can't do that; it actually goes backwards in a way, if CAP27 wants more survivability, it chooses to run a more defensive item like Leftovers. In my mind, this is more indicative of what a defensive Pokemon does. Basically, Magic Guard takes all the offensive focus in stats and swings it over towards a defensive focus because a Magic Guard CAP27's offensive stats will be capped based on already equipping the damage boosting item, so I fear that, ironically, it will end up being a lot offensive when more defensive sets emerge.
Again, there's nothing wrong with Magic Guard; it's a totally valid direction for the concept. But I vastly enjoy the direction of other abilities in this thread. They tend to keep the offensive focus on CAP27 in stats stage by not forcing us to base our power ceiling around already equipping an offensive item, as Magic Guard would actually with Life Orb. Also, making CAP27 completely immune to anything that Toxapex does - Knock Off is useless, Toxic is useless, Scald can't burn, Toxic Spikes is useless - just doesn't sit right with me given that it's on a small list of counters. CAP27 doesn't need to be weak to ALL of these things, but I'd like to leave at least one avenue of counterplay for Toxapex.
Again, there's nothing wrong with Magic Guard; it's a totally valid direction for the concept. But I vastly enjoy the direction of other abilities in this thread. They tend to keep the offensive focus on CAP27 in stats stage by not forcing us to base our power ceiling around already equipping an offensive item, as Magic Guard would actually with Life Orb. Also, making CAP27 completely immune to anything that Toxapex does - Knock Off is useless, Toxic is useless, Scald can't burn, Toxic Spikes is useless - just doesn't sit right with me given that it's on a small list of counters. CAP27 doesn't need to be weak to ALL of these things, but I'd like to leave at least one avenue of counterplay for Toxapex.
I agree with Bughouse almost entirely. Fire/Dragon is an insanely good offensive typing that has a very limited switch-in opportunity. This being said I think that if we do go an offensive support/utility route its probably best we give it abilities that allow it to be more aggressive so that It can more easily capitalize on this.
The first thing I want to cover is CAP 27's role as an offensive support/utility. Looking back on the heyday of Offensive Support playstyles we see Generations 3-4. The reason I bring this up is because everyone is so quick to Highlight Torn-T as the prime example of offensive support. I think this is extremely misguided. We need to be able unite CAP 27's Offensive and Defensive capabilities so that CAP 27 can abuse its STAB while maintaing its support and utility. I'll be skipping DPP because I'm not too keen on the tier, much better at ADV.
Generation 3 (ADV)
My immediate thought when we look at offensive support and utility of ADV singles is Swampert. Swampert offensively is able to fire off STAB boosted Hydro pumps and Earthquakes which back in ADV was a pretty big deal. This coupled with Swampert's fantastic defensive typing allowed it to come in on a lot more Pokemon and force something out. CAP 27 does not have this defensive typing thus it cannot accurately abuse its offensive capabilities for these reasons I think it is important that we look at ways that we can encourage CAP 27 to come in and preform its job. Because of this I'm leaning towards Regenerator and Magic Guard myself. More so Regen
Another Pokemon that I think is Important to highlight is Zapdos. Zapdos was a priemer teamate on Teams that lacked spikes and bulky setup teams because of its respectable bulk, exceptional Special Attack, and its ability to compress coverage moves onto its moveset. This allowed it to remove Pokemon that threatend the teams Set Up sweeper such as Swampert. In otherwords, Zapdos was highly customizable in a number of ways which allowed it to support not only the teams archetype but also its individual teamates. However Zapdos suffered from two main downsides. The most glaring being the threat of being vulnerable to status, especially early in the game. Secondly, Zapdos was unable to OHKO Pokemon because of its reliance on Hidden Power for coverage. Because CAP 27 is looking to support its teamates, most likely a set up sweeper because of its offensive typing, its imparitive that we find ways to downplay the issues that plagued Zapdos. I think we can best do this by slating Natural Cure and Technician.
EDIT: Yes I'm aware Hidden Power isn't a thing in this generation. This doesn't mean we can't opt for other weaker coverage moves.
In Conclusion:
The four abilities mentioned above are what I believe integeral to uniting CAP 27s offensive and defensive capabilities. Here are what I'd order the abilities from most prefered to least prefered:
Regenerator
Natural Cure
Magic Guard
Technician
Honoralbe mention: Levitate
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Yeah… I’m going to have to agree with snake. Magic Guard WILL create life orb dominated discussion. Unlike snake, I think it is not a valid direction and risks being harmful to the concept. Fire/Dragon alone is offensively potent. The addition of magic guard + life orb elevates CAP 27 to the point that we force ourselves to gimp stats and movepool to course correct and prevent a toxic final product. Now, if we lose our life orb, we severely hinder our offensive capability. This defeats the purpose of being offensive support. It is worse when you consider the fact the mons we identified as switch-in opportunities can cripple us. Trick. Knock off. We SHOULD NOT consider an ability that creates item-dependent offensive capability, ESPECIALLY if the mons we determined are our best opportunities to enter battle can screw us.
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