CAP 27 - Part 8 Moveset Discussion

[Quanyails]

CAP 27 So Far

-----

In this stage, we are determining the required and disallowed competitive moves by creating a list of approved movesets. The movesets will be decided based on the competitive needs and limitations of this project. We are not submitting full movepools at this time. There will be a later stage for movepool submissions (level-up sets, egg moves, etc) once the required and disallowed moves have been determined via the accepted movesets.

Moveset Discussion Rules & Guidelines

There should be four kinds of posts in the thread:

• Moveset Submissions
• Moveset Edits/Option Submissions
• General Commentary
• Section Leader/Topic Leader Announcements/Updates

This means that no moves can be suggested or commented on unless they are part of a full competitive moveset submission or suggested as a additional option for one or more previous movesets. Any recommendations to disallow certain moves should only be in reference to moves contained in previously posted movesets.

The general flow of this thread should go like this:

1. People post moveset submissions in a prescribed format (see below)
2. Other people suggest to add/remove moves or other options to previously posted movesets (see below)
3. Other people propose edits to the descriptive information with previously posted movesets
4. Other people comment on the competitive pros and cons of previously posted movesets, additions/removals, and proposed edits
5. Continuously over the course of the thread, the movepool leader updates the first post in the thread with the "currently accepted" movesets and other information related to the status of the intelligent community consensus (see below)

By the end of this discussion thread, we should have the following outputs:

• The top post in the thread (maintained by the Movepool Leader) will contain a list of all edited, approved movesets
• The top post will list controversial movesets and/or optional moves that need to be voted on by the community

Prohibited Moves:
Legendary Signature Moves are banned from discussion unless one (or more) is specifically allowed by the combined consensus of the TL and the Movepool Leader. The following moves are considered Legendary Signatures:

Legendary Signature Moves

Aeroblast
Behemoth Bash
Behemoth Blade
Blue Flare
Bolt Strike
Crush Grip
Core Enforcer
Dark Void
Diamond Storm
Doom Desire
Dragon Ascent
Dynamax Cannon
Eternabeam
Fleur Cannon
Freeze Shock
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Geomancy
Glaciate
Heart Swap
Hyperspace Fury
Hyperspace Hole
Ice Burn
Judgement
Land's Wrath
Light of Ruin
Lunar Dance
Luster Purge
Magma Storm
Mist Ball
Moongeist Beam
Oblivion Wing
Origin Pulse
Photon Geyser
Plasma Fists
Precipice Blades
Prismatic Laser
Psycho Boost
Psystrike
Relic Song
Roar of Time
Sacred Fire
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Force
Spacial Rend
Spectral Thief
Steam Eruption
Sunsteel Strike
Techno Blast
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
V-Create

-------------------
Moveset Submissions

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Energy Ball
Move 4: Earth Power / Focus Blast
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest

• Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
• Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut and Toxapex very hard.
• Energy Ball allows CAP X to break through common Ground-types which may look to switch into its Electric-type STAB, most notably Seismitoad and Hippowdon.
• Earth Power lets CAP X hit Pokemon such as Excadrill, Aegislash, and Bulletproof Equilibra extremely hard, however, Focus Blast is also an option that allows CAP X to deal with Pokemon such as Levitate Equilibra and Ferrothorn if desired.
• Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
• Timid is preferred as it allows CAP X to outpace Dragapult after it has used Agility, but Modest can be used for more breaking power, notably allowing CAP X to OHKO Toxapex.

Copyable template

[B]Moveset Submission[/B]

Name:
Move 1:
Move 2:
Move 3:
Move 4:
Ability: (optional)
Item: (optional)
EVs: (optional)
Nature: (optional)
[LIST]
[*]
[*]
[*]
[/LIST]

Please keep to the above format so the movepool leader can easily see which posts in the thread are proposing new moveset submissions, and can easily locate the information when updating the top post in the thread.

Ability, Item, EVs, and Nature are optional. All that is required are four moves, a name, and some descriptive information (in bullet form).

Any suggested moveset posted without any reasonable description will be deleted by the moderators. People should not spam movesets, post without checking the movesets already submitted, or post movesets without thinking them through.

Although we are not posting movesets in the full C&C analysis format, you should generally adhere to C&C standards where it makes sense. While there will not be excessively strict moderation on this, use common sense. Don't get too slash-happy with moves, no stupid names, use proper spelling and grammar, etc. These movesets will be put on the CAP subsite immediately at the end of the CAP for the playtest.

If you are unsure of the optimal ability, item, EVs, or nature -- you can leave it out and it can be edited in later over the course of the thread. By the end of the thread, every accepted moveset should be filled in completely. That doesn't mean we need to be 100% sure of every aspect of the moveset. It's fine if we go with our best guess and leave it to the playtest to optimize it.


-------------------
Moveset Edits/Option Submissions

Edits/options should be made by copying the most recent version of the moveset and description into an unattributed quote tags ([ QUOTE][ /QUOTE]). Then make any edits, additions, or replacements in bold text, removals should be in strike-through text. The most recent copy should taken from the top post or from the original submission post, depending on whichever one is most current.

Posters can and should comment on the reasoning and background for any proposed edits outside of Quote tags. Simple wording or spelling corrections do not need any explanation or commentary.

Additional move proposals must be made in the context of one or more movesets. The user cannot simply post "I suggest we add Taunt as an option to all non-choiced movesets", for example.


-------------------
Movepool Leader/Topic Leader Posts

The first post under the OP is reserved by the Movepool Leader, and will serve as the reference post for the current status of the discussion.

When the Movepool Leader determines that a moveset, option, or edit is accepted by intelligent community consensus, they will add/update a list of "Approved Movesets" in the first post. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add every submission to the first post automatically, simply because it was posted in the thread. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add a submission to the first post if it was not actively accepted by intelligent community consensus. "Lack of any response" is not the same as "acceptance". As with all CAP discussion threads, the leader should always use their best judgement.

If a proposal has received significant intelligent feedback (positive or negative), but it has not yet reached consensus, the Movepool leader should add it to an "Under Consideration" list in the first post. If the thread ends with controversial items that can't reach consensus, they will go to a community poll. In most cases, the "Under Consideration" list should be comprised of full movesets or additional option proposals. Edits to the description of most movesets, probably will not require extensive discussion or polling.

As the Movepool Leader makes updates to the first post, they should also post announcements in the thread indicating what they have added or updated. This will allow active discussion participants to easily track the progress of the thread. The Topic Leader should also post regular feedback in the thread, like every other competitive discussion.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Hey Y'all, Scott Luc here, ready to lead the last competitive stage of CAP27, the moves!

CAP27 has been built so far to be an offensive support Pokemon, solidly fast and with good mixed stats, and a bulk compounded by the fantastic Regenerator. Moves is a very important stage for CAP 27, simply because what exactly CAP should be doing support-wise has been left a bit vague in order to keep options open, but here is exactly where we must define that niche. It is also important we be careful with what moves we choose to give CAP, as not to disrupt the precarious balance of offensive pressure and supportive capability that CAP27 must maintain.

As always we will not be jumping into full movesets immediately, so please do not post them at this time. Instead, I would like to preface with a few leading questions to focus in on what moves we think will be most beneficial for CAP27 as a Pokemon and for its concept.

1) Based on what has been given to CAP27 so far, what niche do you think CAP should fulfill?

2) What moves do we think may disrupt the balance of offensive and support for CAP27 as to push it too far in one direction, and as such may be contrary to the health of the concept itself?

3) Considering how strong of an offensive typing Fire/Dragon is, what coverage moves risks affecting our current C&C list in an unhealthy manner?

I'd like to get opinion on these for about 24-48 hours, although others may be asked if further clarification on a topic is needed. Once we have a bit clearer of a vision for the sets CAP27 should be running, moveset subs will then be opened. Remember, moveset submissions are NOT open yet, so please do not post them.

Alright, go nuts.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Reserved

Approved Movesets

Name: Wisp and (H)Wish
Move 1: Will-O-Wisp
Move 2: Flare Blitz
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Healing Wish
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Name: Frog Catcher (Sun Support)
Move 1: Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Solar Beam
Move 4: Healing Wish / Will-o-Wisp
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 236 Atk / 20 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Naive

Name: 27 go boom
Move 1: Explosion
Move 2: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Will-o-Wisp / Thunderwave
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Name: Offensive Cleric
Move 1: Heal Bell
Move 2: Fire Lash
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Knock Off / Will-o-wisp
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252atk/4spd/252spe
Nature: Jolly

Name: Spike Stacker
Move 1: Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Flare Blitz
Move 3: Will-o-Wisp
Move 4: Spikes
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Name: Scarf User
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Knock Off/ Bulldoze / Explosion
Move 4: Switcharoo / Healing Wish
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 4HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

Pending Movesets

Moveset Submission

Name: Offensive Cleric
Move 1: Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Wish
Move 4: Aromatherapy / Protect
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Speed
Nature: Jolly

Disallowed Moves

Pivoting Moves (U-turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot, Teleport)
Grass- and Electric-type Coverage (Solar Beam excluded)
Ground-type Coverage higher than 60 BP
Poison-type Coverage higher than 60 BP
Psychic-type Coverage higher than 60 BP
Fighting-type Coverage higher than 60 BP
Flying-type Coverage higher than 60 BP
Rock-type Coverage higher than 60 BP
Setup Moves (Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Nasty Plot, etc.)
50% Recovery Moves (Recover and Morning Sun)
Strength Sap
Heat Crash
Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, Sticky Web
Glare
Disable

 

[quziel]

I'd like to give a bit of a callback to a post I made back in CA; that is, why are ya using an offensive support. Earlier I outlined a couple of possible routes forward which I'll list again:

• Healing
• Last Ditch Anti-Sweep
• Tons of Utility on an Offensive mon

I don't believe that being an anti-sweeper is realistically an option we have available for us, but I think the other two directions are; specifically, Wish sets are an option that we are entirely capable of actualizing thanks to Regenerator and good base HP, as well as putting a ton of utility on the mon. As I think that a Cleric set is very easy for us to make possible with one of Wish, Healing Wish, or Aromatherapy, I'll focus more on the Utility part. In the past this kinda mon has been conceptualized in SM Torn-T and DPP Celebi which ran Defog and Knock Off and Thunderwave respectively to provide the utility half of their set. I'll be ignoring Defog as I really don't think that we should be introducing a Regen Defogger with HDB into the tier. Knock Off worked on Torn because it specifically hit hte bulky, recovery-less steels that wall it, and Thunderwave worked on Celebi specifically because it hit the Dragon types that would otherwise come in on Leaf Storm + HP Fire. In both of these cases the pokemon needed high power STAB moves. A Taunt-Based Stallbreaker is also a set that I think we can fulfill very easily; as exemplified by pokemon such as ORAS era Mew, albeit with us dealing with 6% burn.

I think we should aim to fulfill a utility based Offensive Pivot along the lines of Torn-T or Celebi as that actualizes Regenerator and fits within the Concept. Cleric options are something I think we should look at, and would require a fair amount of support. As for options that would push us too far towards Offense or Support one major one is Wish. Because most pokemon play fairly selfishly, I think Wish is essentially a 2 moveslot tax on us, that is Wish + Protect, or Wish + Recover(y), with the latter offering a high tempo version of Wish+Protect. With Wish we really need to consider how to best offset that moveslot tax, how to offset the inherently passive nature of a Wish User (see Wish+Shore Up Jumbao which only worked with Fairium Z), and whether the additional supporting options required to do so are safe.

As for the other direction I think the main worry that we need to talk about is Fire Lash. Its been brought up fairly often throughout the process as honestly its a really cool move and is fun to use while offering a fair number of very interesting gameplay options. However, it is a very notable power creep over basically any other option because by itself it opens up the capability to act as a Stallbreaker. While being a Stallbreaker is arguably a supportive role, I would worry about Fire Lash, especially at this speed tier. I think we'd still get some sort of Offensive Support set out of it, I just worry about hte power level inherent. Safer options include Flare Blitz (which messes up our matchup vs Corv) and Heat Crash (would require high weight, messes with Jumbao matchup).

I also think that, as long as the coverage is sufficiently narrow, we can be pretty liberal with giving 27 coverage moves; Bulldoze is an incredibly narrow tech that essentially lures Mollux, Solar Beam would make a functional lure to Seis. What I'd worry about would be giving this mon traditionally strong coverage moves that can just freely slot onto a set; why would we run Willowisp for Hippo if we can just use Power Whip.

 

[snake]

1) Based on what has been given to CAP27 so far, what niche do you think CAP should fulfill?

As Regenerator would imply, an offensive pivot seems like a natural fit for CAP27's role. However, I'd like to make it more specific and say that CAP27 should focus on softening up the opposing team for its teammates. Whether this is inflicting status, manipulating items, lowering stats, or balance breaking, I think CAP27 can excel in this role with its longevity and excellent dual STAB.

2) What moves do we think may disrupt the balance of offensive and support for CAP27 as to push it too far in one direction, and as such may be contrary to the health of the concept itself?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think Wish really messes with CAP27's tempo a lot. Uninvested, CAP27 has 357 HP, and for reference, specially defensive Clefable has 394 HP. While CAP27 may not have the bulk, defensive typing, and status immunity like Clefable has, it has excellent speed and Regenerator and nearly the same sized Wishes even without investment. I'm afriad that allowing such a defensive, momentum-draining move as Wish will force CAP27 way into the support side of the concept. Regenerator may alleviate some of this passivity, but Wish is undoubtedly a momentum-draining move. Moreover, I'm a little worried about the general health of the metagame with Clefable + CAP27 Wish passing teams, as we already see the effectiveness of Wish Clefable alone and especially due to Clefable + CAP27's projected effectiveness as a core anyway. Healing teammates is pro-concept, and there's an alternative move that CAP27 can use that keeps the focus on offensive support.

I don't like standard pivoting moves (U-turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot, Teleport). If we're going to define "offensive utility" as "I click U-turn," then we're taking the lazy way out. There are other ways to preserve and build momentum without using these moves. Similarly, Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, and Defog are also the lazy way out with this concept. I can't say that they don't fulfill concept, but I think it's, again, a lazy actualization of the concept. There are types of utility that aren't required on literally every team that we can give to CAP27 and make it more interesting, rather than see CAP27 as a standard hazard control Pokemon on every team.

3) Considering how strong of an offensive typing Fire/Dragon is, what coverage moves risks affecting our current C&C list in an unhealthy manner?

I don't think we should bar really a) weak tech options that could knock out a pressure matchup at the cost of a moveslot (read: extremely costly) or b) otherwise brings significant utility to CAP27's moveset.

EDIT: realized my wording was incorrect regarding pivoting moves.

 

[Pipotchi]

1) Based on what has been given to CAP27 so far, what niche do you think CAP should fulfill?

i think it leans into being a stallbreaker of sorts. it doesnt have the damage to forcibly break through things, but it can put lasting chip on fat mons and thanks to its high speed tier itll always be able to do something to the vast majority of mons before switching out. I also think this mon should be looking towards being a lategame cleaner, meaning that once a team is very weak, it can happily pick off the weakened remains. This is different from a sweeper, a cleaner relies on a high speed tier and the rest of the team doing the majority of the work- its just there to close out the game by attacking 3 or 4 times in a row in the late-game scenario. It also operates as a useful revenge killer in the same way- outspeeding a mon who may have set up with a SD or NP and bopping them before they can move. It can perform these roles thanks to its high speed, and doesnt require super-powerful moves or priority to get these jobs done.

What im worried about, and i voiced this in the discord, is that this mon might struggle in the teambuilder. By which i mean that without actual, hard utility (hazard control, cleric tools), methods to sweep, properly wallbreak, or hard-wall mons, how do mons find their way onto the team? I cant think of a single mon with viability that can get away without having any of the above, apart from Krilowatt- who also struggles to find its way onto teams. When you have the luxury to add a Kril, it can often put in some work and carry games on its back alone, but it also often leaves you with a gaping flaw in your consistency as a team. I dont think its appropriate for this mon to be able to sweep, wallbreak, hard-wall or use cleric tools, so im leaning towards hazard control. Yes its been done before, but thanks to new mechanics there is actually a hazard removal option that grants both offense and utility, and can allow us to clean a weakened team as well as find a way on to more squads- plus it doesnt hurt this mon to have this role- wont prevent other moves from being able to be added to its movepool. Im gunna leave it at that for now cus I just want to touch on the qs briefly.


2) What moves do we think may disrupt the balance of offensive and support for CAP27 as to push it too far in one direction, and as such may be contrary to the health of the concept itself?

i tested it on the server, and i think Fire Lash pushes us to be too strong offensively, it destroys bulky neutral switchins like Terrak and Keldeo when they switch in that i believe should be checking us-because Fire Lash into an effective +1 Dragon-type move (or god forbid SE coverage if we get it) is blowing stuff up. Its not easy to pivot in slower offensive mons on this but if they guess right and come in on a resisted move I believe they should be rewarded. Fire Lash can also beat offensive Tomohawk when it switches in, which is just bizarre to me.

i also played against Wish- it was a brief game, but all CAP27 managed to click in the match was Wish + Protect, because its team was relying on that support. i think this solidified my belief that Wishtect CAP27 would be too passive in its execution.

as of now, im not sure how i feel about Toxic. would rly like to hear other's suggestions on this, because my gut reaction was that i dislike it for this CAP, although it could be considered supportive in wearing down walls.

reliable recovery pushes this mon into a much more passive role, which is not the route im particularly interested in.

3) Considering how strong of an offensive typing Fire/Dragon is, what coverage moves risks affecting our current C&C list in an unhealthy manner?

Basically all of them, lol. In particular we should avoid Grass, Ground, and Electric coverage. These hit important switchins on our checklist- mostly Water, Rock, and Flying type answers to this mon.

 

[Roland le preaux]

I haven't read any of the other posts yet, because I want to give my original thoughts first. So apologies if I'm repeating anybody.

1) Based on what has been given to CAP27 so far, what niche do you think CAP should fulfill?

I think CAP 27 should fulfill the niche of offensive pivot and item/hazard remover, with a minor niche as a cleric and Wish passer.

2) What moves do we think may disrupt the balance of offensive and support for CAP27 as to push it too far in one direction, and as such may be contrary to the health of the concept itself?

I think powerful coverage moves are the most likely to push CAP 27 too far in the direction of an all-out-attacker, and setup moves are likely to push CAP 27 in the direction of sweeper. Both of these offensive niches lack the supportive elements we identified in Concept Assessment, and should be avoided. I also think that Fire Lash is too offensively powerful of a move, particularly against Keldeo, Terrakion, and other Fire resists who suddenly become much more vulnerable to our weaker Dragon-type STAB after correctly predicting and switching in on a Fire move. I think the main moves likely to push it in the direction of pure support are hazards. IMHO hazards should be disallowed, because the ability to set them up and switch out, preserving health with Regenerator, multiple times throughout the game will mean that our playstyle does not rely enough on our damage potential to create momentum. Hazard removal a more defensive option that is much less of a problem because it won't compete with the offensive momentum of damage dealing.

3) Considering how strong of an offensive typing Fire/Dragon is, what coverage moves risks affecting our current C&C list in an unhealthy manner?

Powerful Electric, Grass, and Poison coverage should be disallowed because it allows us to potentially break Primarina, a perfect type counter. I know that may be a silly statement, because Primarina is not exactly viable right now, but it was included on our threats list and I believe we should stand by it. I would also be in favor of disallowing water coverage, because early on in the process we identified Rock and Ground types as some of our best checks and counters. Weak or middling Ground-type coverage I'm actually ok with in order to allow us to pressure Mollux.

I look forward to more discussion and I'm open minded to being persuaded on some of the above points. Thanks for reading!

Edit: I have since changed my opinion on both Wish and Fire Lash.

 

[Reviloja753]

2) What moves do we think may disrupt the balance of offensive and support for CAP27 as to push it too far in one direction, and as such may be contrary to the health of the concept itself?

I'd like to echo the concerns of the others who have posted so far and advocate against giving this thing Wish. As others have mentioned, it very much drains our momentum. The only exception may potentially be pivoting moves such as U-turn, Parting Shot, or Volt Switch, but I agree with snake in that we have much more interesting moves to explore with the concept. Also, with CAP27 and Clefable already working well together in terms of type matchups (Clefable handling faster dragons and CAP27 being able to dispatch Corviknight and Equilibra under a correct prediction), having both of them clicking Wish could just be completely unfun to play against. Any hazard moves, both setting and removing, also feel like a cheap way to utilize this concept. We already have a million removers and setters. Equilibra is one of the top removers in the metagame because of the fact that it could not care less about hazards on typing and ability alone, and we basically are the exact opposite. Stealth Rocks and Spikes lessen our Regenerator recovery. The only hazard I maybe would be okay with is Toxic Spikes, purely because it isn't really something you see in the metagame right now, but the prevalence of Mollux and Clefable make me question how useful they even are right now. Fire Lash I am generally neutral on, as I do think it's a cool move and could fall into offensive support (especially if one considers Fire Lash to soften opponents up for teammates), but I also see why people may feel it shifts us too offensively. While I personally would like to see it, that's more of my own personal bias than anything.

Considering how strong of an offensive typing Fire/Dragon is, what coverage moves risks affecting our current C&C list in an unhealthy manner?

First of all, I would like to specifically warn against giving any Fairy or Electric-type coverage, as well as avoiding any physical Grass-type coverage and strong Ground-type coverage. They punch major holes into the likes of Hippowdon, Tomohawk, and Toxapex to a degree I don't feel comfortable with. As mentioned before, Solar Beam seems like a decent option to give CAP27 a way to lure in Seismitoad, and Bulldoze as a niche option to tackle Mollux don't seem too harmful. I generally feel that for this CAP, though, we really should go extremely conservative on coverage options that are there just to hit stuff. Something like Knock Off or Body Slam would be fine though.

 

[MrDollSteak]

1) Based on what has been given to CAP27 so far, what niche do you think CAP should fulfill?

I think others have covered this well. I agree that it is natural for CAP 27 to end up as an offensive pivot, and also has the tools to be a balance or stall breaker, and leaning into these options through move selections are great. That being said, I think we also have the opportunity to run a clerical set since our offenses are potent enough that we will be forcing switchins to the point that the loss of momentum from moves like Wish and Aromatherapy are somewhat mitigated.

2) What moves do we think may disrupt the balance of offensive and support for CAP27 as to push it too far in one direction, and as such may be contrary to the health of the concept itself?

I am primarily against all the Pivoting moves (yes even Teleport), as they allow CAP 27 to indiscriminately swing momentum and in the case of U-Turn and Volt Switch get constant chip damage in. I'm not a fan of hazard removal personally, and also believe that Stealth Rock is quite problematic. Spikes and Toxic Spikes strike me as the only pro-concept forms of entry hazard, as they naturally support offensive teams in particular which I think CAP 27 will be supporting to a large extent.

I'm not a fan of Toxic, I believe that Burn and Paralysis are a lot more consistent with what we're wanting to achieve as an offensive support Pokemon. Toxic gets around the bulky waters that check and counter us (apart from Toxapex) in a way that I don't we should be doing.

I am personally not worried about Wish or Aromatherapy as moves, because even if they are generally more passive, CAP 27's raw offensive presence will give it space to use these moves without sacrificing too much momentum by forcing switches. I also think that in general this set will not be the main one, as CAP 27 in my opinion synergises more with forms of hyper offense.

Fire Lash is a move that is naturally very powerful, and that can get close to 2HKOing a lot of bulky offensive Pokemon, especially if it is able to hit them more than once in a match through swapping in and out. While it leans quite well into our concept, I can absolutely see why it might be too powerful since it basically forces us to be checked by bulky Pokemon or Scarfers.

3) Considering how strong of an offensive typing Fire/Dragon is, what coverage moves risks affecting our current C&C list in an unhealthy manner?

I personally believe that we shouldn't get any coverage outside of Knock Off, especially if we do get Fire Lash. If we do get any coverage it should absolutely not be stronger than 60 BP so that it is reserved purely for 4x weak mons, such as in the case of Bulldoze for Mollux. The speed control of Bulldoze is potentially relevant so I'm not a massive fan of it, but I think this is the rough benchmark we should be aiming for if we want any. Electric and Grass are the only ones I think we shouldn't get in any capacity whatsoever.

 

[NumberCruncher]

1) Based on what has been given to CAP27 so far, what niche do you think CAP should fulfill?

As others have mentioned, Wishing send like a poor use of this mon. Ideally, this mon probably either wants to aquire momentum for the team or keep the opponent from getting momentum, and Wish does the exact opposite of that. What I'm actually going to propose is either Taunter/Item Swapper or Sleep Setter.

CAPs stats and typing tends to draw in defensive Water, Ground and Fairy Pokemon like Toxapex, Hippo, and potentially Clefable. Forcing these mons onto the offensive by killing their defensive options could very easily kill the opponent's momentum and give the other mons on the team an easier time getting a sweep.

Sleep Setting is a more extreme version of the first option, but is worth discussing. Instead of cutting off defensive options, it simply cuts off all options for a few turns. It forces the opponent to sink a ton of momentum into sitting on the field not doing anything in order to get their defensive mon turned back on. CAP is very fast, which is unusual for a sleep setter in general, and certainly an interesting niche in Gen 8, where sleep-setting is pretty rare with the Dexit of things like Amoongus and Breloom.

2) What moves do we think may disrupt the balance of offensive and support for CAP27 as to push it too far in one direction, and as such may be contrary to the health of the concept itself?

Wish and Outrage are probably going to be the most anti-concept moves for CAP, both for opposite reasons. Having Wish and Regenerator is going to push people into heavy defensive investment when it comes to EV spreads, basically dumpstering our offensive capabilities.

Outrage is the exact opposite in that regard. It forces us too heavily in an offensive direction. CAPs spread and typing pushes it heavily into a momentum grabbing role, and Outrage is the epitome of killing momentum in exchange for raw power. It forces you to stay in place and spam attacks for a number of turns, and then punishes you with confusion if you don't switch after it's effect drops off.

3) Considering how strong of an offensive typing Fire/Dragon is, what coverage moves risks affecting our current C&C list in an unhealthy manner?

Anything super-effective against Water, Ground, Rock, or Fairy is probably out, given how good the typing already is. That honestly doesn't leave us with much. It only leaves us Normal, Flying, Bug, Psychic, Ghost, Dark, and Fairy. Fairy and Flying are both far too good as coverage typing, and Ghost is actually so awful on the physical spectrum, it's not even usable.

Therefore, the only things I would actually say are 100% okay are Normal, Bug, and Dark, and I think we would need some further discussion on Psychic coverage.

 

[Deck Knight]

1) Based on what has been given to CAP27 so far, what niche do you think CAP should fulfill?

The concept and our general direction so far lend us towards an offensive support Pokemon, which can narrowly be defined as a Pokemon likely to use Dual STAB, and any third or fourth slots dedicated to support. This can mean damaging moves like Knock Off too, but chiefly the moves are there for the secondary effect.


2) What moves do we think may disrupt the balance of offensive and support for CAP27 as to push it too far in one direction, and as such may be contrary to the health of the concept itself?

Pivot-out moves of any sort (U-turn, Parting Shot, Teleport etc.) will absolutely break our concept by providing healing opportunities that are nearly impossible to stop. Regenerator + hard switching has to be the way to go here.

I also think immediate healing moves which recover 50% or more HP (Recover / Moonlight etc.) are too powerful in conjunction with Regenerator, for reasons Toxapex has demonstrated for two generations now. I do however feel with these two caveats, Wish becomes an acceptable support addition. Wish + Protect or Wish + Life Dew seem balanced enough to provide flexibility without turning 27 into a sort of "wall on wheels." Clefable became a menace with Wish because of Teleport. Prior to that Wish was just one of many sets.

Finally, I think Fire Lash is a slam dunk pro-concept move. The one point against it is it enables a Fire + Dragon follow-up, but realistically physical Dragon STAB without pulling from the well of Pokemon-specific signature moves is the weak Dragon Claw, the Inaccurate Dragon Rush, or the infamously overcommittal Outrage. Regenerator and our 108 Base HP Stat also mitigates the only major drawback to Flare Blitz. Fire Lash is going to struggle to replace Blitz as it is, and given we chose an offensive support route and a physical bias, denying strong physical STABs is counter to our direction. Fire Lash is excellent role compression on a Pokemon that conceptually wants two free slots for support options after its STABs. It can't bail you out of any situation where proper prediction wouldn't be as effective. Fire Lash + Dragon Claw does the same damage to Fire-resistant, Dragon neutral targets than just predicting and hitting with two Dragon Claws would. (60 + 180[120x1.5] = 120 + 120). This does make it more consistent than Flare Blitz, in that specific scenario. I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing when we want to avoid being a breaking machine.

3) Considering how strong of an offensive typing Fire/Dragon is, what coverage moves risks affecting our current C&C list in an unhealthy manner?

Our switch-in, counter, and pressure lists are all rife with some difficult Pokemon to deal with. Piggybacking on my last paragraph, I do think we should be incredibly careful with coverage. 75 (Brick Break) and 60 (Bulldoze) seem like the reasonable limits on Fighting and Ground coverage. I don't have an issue with Poison coverage because Primarina may be a "type counter" but it absolutely cannot withstand repeated rammings from Flare Blitz. It's not used much as it is, and can't compete with Arghonaut or Seismitoad for a bulky water spot even with the great typing. The question of whether Gunk Shot is too powerful might be one to consider given it wipes Clefable, Sylveon, and Hatterene out, but Poison Jab is a quick easy shot at 30% Poison that Clefable still doesn't want to eat. Seems like a pro-concept offensive support move. Fire-STAB alone almost makes Poison moves redundant but for the SE hit vs a neutral one on Fairies.

Contrast Steel Coverage which I think should be disallowed because it simultaneously defeats Fairies and Rock types that should be checking/countering us. Iron Head is more of a worry than Smart Strike or Steel Wing though, admittedly.

 

[Zephyri]

1) Based on what has been given to CAP27 so far, what niche do you think CAP should fulfill?

I believe CAP27 should fit the role of either Taunter or Status Passer Both status and taunt are already associated with utility, and make perfect sense for an Offensive support. To fulfill the role of a status passer, i suggest not to give CAP27 direct status moves such as Thunder Wave or Toxic, but instead low-power moves with a 30% chance of passing status, such as Force Palm, Poison Jab, and Body Slam. I'd also suggest giving it Encore to complement Taunt, but that may be a bit too much, so I'll hold out on that one.

2) What moves do we think may disrupt the balance of offensive and support for CAP27 as to push it too far in one direction, and as such may be contrary to the health of the concept itself?

I don't advocate giving CAP27 reliable healing other than mayyybe draining moves, but even those are a bit of a stretch. One thing I'd hate to give it is Wish, based on the fact that this is meant to be an Offensive Support, and Wish is a staple of Defensive Support Mons, like Sylveon and Chansey. I wouldn't like to give it too much coverage, setup moves or moves over the power of 90, even Overheat and Draco Meteor. I'd mayybe be fine with giving it Flare Blitz, but that's basically it. Fire Lash, on the contrary, is a move that I quite, solely because it fits the concept extremely well, in that it provides both solid damage and utility in the defense drop.

3) Considering how strong of an offensive typing Fire/Dragon is, what coverage moves risks affecting our current C&C list in an unhealthy manner?

Although I do agree that coverage like Earthquake, Close Combat or Iron Head would steer away from the intended purpose of the pokemon, i do believe it would be a good idea to give the mon low power coverage that passes status, like Poison Jab or Body Slam

 

[Karoshi]

1) Based on what has been given to CAP27 so far, what niche do you think CAP should fulfill?
One of the best offensive supports in every tier is Rotom. Having access to trick it lets it out speed most threats while also tricking it to support its team by shutting down defensive or item dependent Pokemon. CAP27 should not get a true pivot as we don't want to turn it into a better Meinfoo but Regenerator even helps facilitate this by letting it heal off damage off of forced switchouts due to Choice.

Another niche people were talking about in the Discord were as a lead. People are wary of giving it entry hazards or their removal least make it boring, but Magic Coat, Taunt and Explosion/Memento can turn it into a fairly effective and tricky AntiLead or Suicidal Lead. I have no interest or apprehension in using it this way so I will let people more inclined towards this to discuss it.

Lastly because I heard this come up a few times. Wish passing is a role it would be great at. Wish + Regenerator is strong onto itself, if we added Heal Bell to it it would be one of the most effective Offensive Clerics in the game. I have no problem with this. One problem is people are concerned about Wish + Protect. I understand this fear as well especially coupled with its solid physical def after burning an opponent. While unorthodox, if we do think Wish Passing is a route we go down we should consider not allowing it to learn Protect. This is a trait shared with Regigigas and Tynamo so it isn't unprecedented.

2) What moves do we think may disrupt the balance of offensive and support for CAP27 as to push it too far in one direction, and as such may be contrary to the health of the concept itself?
Utility Moves. Plain in simple if it has access to even just its STAB offensively it will not struggle too much. Moves like Taunt, Encore, Switcharoo, Memento, Healing Wish, etc. are the moves that turn it from a revenge killer to a legit support Pokemon. I have no problem giving it a slew of support moves as it will always funnel back around to being somewhat offensive due to its stats and even moreso if we give it strong stab like Flare Blitz. Knock Off is the only move I have any REAL strong opinions on and that is because it is both an offensive and utility move, fits with out check/counter list and embodies the concept and should probably be mandatory. Other offensive moves with utility (Dragon Tail, Rapid Spin, Fake Out, Etc) are also really good for the concept but have issues that need to be addressed on a base by base level.

3) Considering how strong of an offensive typing Fire/Dragon is, what coverage moves risks affecting our current C&C list in an unhealthy manner?
I am conflicted on this point. I agree we should steer away from strong coverage option but I worry that having only STAB + Knock off will make CAP27 linear and struggle in the long run. Base 60 and lower should be allowed for any type move and take consideration but allow some coverage so long as it doesn't impede our Checks/Counter list. I do hope it gets some form of Steel coverage for Fairies but that will definitely need discussion.

 

[99_Problems]

1) Based on what has been given to CAP27 so far, what niche do you think CAP should fulfill?

I think there’s a few different routes we can go. Status spreading and general disruption is the most obvious here, as it allows us to disrupt and cripple mons in ways that can be capitalized on by our teammates. Will-o-wisp and Glare are two big standouts here, as paralyze and burn are both statuses with immediate impact on the state of the game as soon as they connect. Taunt and Encore are also very good options with situational strengths; Taunt helps us beat defensive mons like Clef, while Encore lets us lock mons like Terrakion or Corviknight into their setup moves if we can come in on a predicted setup attempt.

We can also go the role of offensive hazard support. Our stab combination is threatening enough to force switches on a lot of pokemon, giving us free turns to set up hazards. This combined with regenerator makes Spikes the most attractive option, since our offensive pressure is likely to let us setup multiple layers and support our team with the residual damage. Stealth Rock seems like a bit of a wasted opportunity compared to spikes, but is obviously an option.

Finally, we have the tools to be a good user of both cleric moves and Healing Wish. These allow us to bring support to injured or crippled teammates and give them a second shot as the match progresses. Aromatherapy is a momentum drain, but naturally plays off our offensive pressure to provide direct support to teammates. Our speed tier also lets us make excellent use of moves like Healing Wish, as well as potentially something like Tailwind, to enable our teammates to sweep in a pinch.

Note that none of these are mutually exclusive niches, and as such, some of 27’s strength can come from the capability of utilizing several different types of utility to gain an advantage through unpredictability. Utility through versatility is a very real thing, as evidenced by mons like Tyranitar or the Latis in past generations.


2) What moves do we think may disrupt the balance of offensive and support for CAP27 as to push it too far in one direction, and as such may be contrary to the health of the concept itself?

I want to echo and emphasize the wariness of pivot moves addressed by others in the thread. Uturn and its relatives have undeniable synergy with regenerator, but this incentivizes very heavy use of these moves to the point where often the best play is simply to click uturn. I don’t see this being very healthy for 27s gameplay, nor conducive to our goal of support.

Poison moves such as Toxic and Toxic Spikes are a bit of a question mark for me. Poison is a very useful status to inflict, especially against defensive mons, though it’s a much more passive status than something like burn or paralysis with a smaller direct impact on the game. Ultimately, poison ends up heading in a much more slow and grindy direction than burn or paralysis, more or less hamstringing 27 and forcing it to play a game it’s not really equipped to play.

Wish is an attractive option due to our high base hp, but I worry about it either being too strong. Such high hp wishes combined with regenerator seems like a very abusive combination, and will likely slow down our gameplay considerably due to its momentum-robbing nature. Turning 27 into a wishtect bot seems the wrong direction to go. In a similar vein, recovery moves seem like the wrong way to go as well. We should rely on regenerator to heal while maintaining momentum, rather than spending turns healing ourself.


3) Considering how strong of an offensive typing Fire/Dragon is, what coverage moves risks affecting our current C&C list in an unhealthy manner?

I think most coverage should be disallowed for us. Any coverage move that 27 wants to run is one less utility move it gets to run, pushing us more from a supportive role to a strictly offensive. Specific typings we should absolutely not get are electric, grass, and steel. Electric and grass let us potentially beat bulky waters and grounds, and steel likely lets us beat Terrakion and Tyranitar much easier than we should.

I’m not against utility based coverage like Knock Off, and I’m also not opposed to weak ground coverage for Mollux. Bulldoze and Icy Wind are both niche options that allow us to beat very specific mons, without being overbearing and also generating utility via speed control.

 

[Roland le preaux]

I would just like to post an update to some of my thoughts on CAP 27, after engaging in discussion on Discord. Whereas before I saw Fire Lash as being too strong, I have come to the conclusion that it is a fairly precise tool that allows us to pressure Clefable, an oppressive presence in the metagame that frankly needs more mons that can beat it 1v1. Clefable can stall out Flare Blitzes quite easily with Wish + Protect, and Taunt is an unreliable way to deal with it, given that 2 Moonblasts will always put us in range of fainting from a single turn of Flare Blitz recoil. While Fire Lash unfortunately improves our matchup against other mons I'd like to beat us, it actually falls short of breaking some of our checks. Terrakion (and Keldeo) still have the natural bulk to survive Fire Lash + Dragon Claw, and physically defensive Tomohawk can still switch into us at full health and avoid the 3HKO from Fire Lash, while threatening to knock us out with a couple of Hurricanes. Given that it's the best moveset option to pressure the S tier Clefable, I've decided that I'm willing to spend a large chunk of our remaining power budget on Fire Lash, as long as we recognize how strong it is and account for that with other moveset choices. Fire Lash is a deceptively good addition to our movepool because of how much it eases prediction, allowing us to comfortably click Fire moves even when the team has multiple Fire resists. It will make CAP 27 a much more difficult mon to switch into and could easily become overbearing if we give too many other tools to go along with it.

Tomohawk calcs:
-1 252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 76-91 (18.3 - 21.9%) -- possible 5HKO
-1 252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. -1 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 114-135 (27.5 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. -2 252 HP / 92 Def Tomohawk: 153-180 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
21.9% + 32.6% +43.3% = 97.9% Not a 3HKO
0 SpA Tomohawk Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Turtonator: 192-226 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I also want to revise my argument against hazards, because I think that Spikes in particular will be too powerful on CAP 27. Regenerator + the ability to beat most hazard removers means that we can create huge amounts of offensive pressure through hazard stacking on this mon. Other offensive spikers, such as Syclant and the now-snapped Greninja, do not have nearly the bulk that we do and totally lack recovery. They have to take on significant risk each time they try to add a layer of hazards, hoping to force a switch and avoid counterattack. Because of how frail they are, even weak passive mons can predict them to click Spikes, stay in and take a huge chunk of their health away with a single attack. The same would not be true of CAP 27, who has significantly more HP and an easy method of recovering lost health. Opponents who risk their mons to stay in and try to chip away at a spikes-stacking 27 will only be able to watch in frustration as 27 switches out, shrugging off the damage until its next opportunity to come in and add another layer. It seems too oppressive to be balanced.

Finally, I just want to say I really support giving CAP 27 cleric tools, specifically Healing Wish and Heal Bell. While they are not offensive moves per se, they help to regain offensive momentum by allowing a crippled teammate another chance to sweep. Therefore I find them to be highly pro-concept.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

All right, great job answering those questions!

It seems that for CAP27, we are most interested in going into the direction of "disruptive pivot" per se, an offensive pivot with a wide variety of utility moves to weaken the opposing side through status, item/move disruption and other means. There is also intent for the possibility of becoming a stallbreaker, so keep that in mind.

Furthermore, I think there are some moves that we can safely disallow before starting movesets proper.

Pivoting Moves (U-turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot, Teleport): Its a pretty clear consensus at this point that pivoting moves has a near guaranteed chance of being run on these sets, especially considering our speed and Regenerator, and is prone to lead to an overwhelming priority to the usage of these moves, eclipsing any of our support options as well a making CAP27 a complete pain to fight realistically. I do not think this is healthy for the CAP going forward.

Grass- and Electric-type Coverage(sans Solar Beam): Clear outcry on how it affects our Checks and Counters, as most of them are weak to one or both of these attacking types. All of it is disallowed.

Ground-type Coverage (>Bulldoze) : Also a clear worry about all Ground coverage above Bulldoze, as it creates a way around Toxapex, which is a major counter to the current abilities of CAP 27, as well as Terrakion. Bulldoze is the current highest that seems alright with everyone, as a fringe way to guarantee the win against Mollux, but it clear we do not want anything higher than that.

Setup Moves (Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Nasty Plot, etc.): Not really talked about, but I feel if good ones are given, it will allow CAP to run Setup 3 Attack sets, which I think is vehemently breaking the balance of offensive support towards the offensive side and should not be present on the mon.

50% Recovery Moves (Recover and Morning Sun): Reliable Recovery moves fall into the idea of taking too much momentum away from CAP27 and diverging focus away from Regenerator, as well as being too obnoxious of an option. This idea didn't get any opposition, so I will disallow those that heal the 50% range, as I doubt Life Dew will see large use.

Finally, I would like further elaborations on some moves here in moveset submissions.

Wish: Highly controversial move here, as most believe it will be used for selfish purposes and will kill our momentum in pair with Protect. However, there are a few people in opposition to the move's adversity, saying it will not be a problem. I do not think I have enough evidence to make a ruling towards either side, although I am currently leaning much more towards disallowing it, so I would like more information through movesets on why/why not it is a good inclusion for CAP27.
Hazard control: Overall traditional hazard control is a route that people seem not interested in pursuing, although there are murmurs of other, rarer hazards that may be worthy on it. I'd generally like more discussion on it in general.
Fire Lash: Honestly I'm having a hard time making a ruling on it, I need more data. Its pretty clear that the damage is similar for Fire Lash+Dragon Claw and Dragon Claw+Dragon Claw, but I would like more info on the true impact of that defense drop.
Other Coverage Options: I know they are there, show me which ones are the bad ones definitively.

And with that, movesets are open! Just make sure to follow the OP guidelines and make sure not to use any of the now disallowed moves. Let's see some sets?

Edit: Since Jho HAD to mention it, Strength Sap is also preemptively disallowed, as its pretty much the recovery moves but even more obnoxious.

 

[GMars]

Moveset Submission

Name: Wisp and (H)Wish
Move 1: Will-O-Wisp
Move 2: Flare Blitz
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Healing Wish
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Will-O-Wisp is a great support move in line with the goals we’ve set up for CAP 27: chipping the opponent, improving CAP 27’s own physical bulk, reducing physical damage for CAP 27’s teammates, and hindering switch-ins without letting CAP 27 beat them 1-on-1.
• Flare Blitz is a solid STAB move that, when paired with Life Orb, allows CAP 27 to apply significant offensive pressure, forcing in resists that often dislike burn.
• Dragon Claw pairs well with Flare Blitz and Will-O-Wisp by smacking dragons like Hydreigon, Dragapult, and Pajantom that could take a wisp (and a blitz) rather well.
• Healing Wish finishes off CAP 27’s support side, letting it sacrifice itself for momentum after chipping and crippling the foes through attacks and wisps to either give a teammate an easy setup opportunity or simply get a partner in and back online to continue breaking through the opposing team.
• A Jolly nature was chosen to take advantage of CAP 27’s great Speed tier, as successful use of Healing Wish often relies on investing into a decent Speed stat (like Latias and Jirachi have done in the past). Jolly in particular lets CAP 27 stay ahead of Terrakion for an emergency wisp and max Speed Krilowatt should CAP 27 need to use Healing Wish against it.

 

[Madsi6]

Moveset Submission

Name: Mixed Attacker
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Draco Meteor
Move 3: Will-O-Wisp / Healing Wish
Move 4: Taunt
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 12 Atk / 240 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Hasty

• Flare Blitz in combination with Life Orb, 12 Atk EVs and Timid nature allows us to always 2 hit KO specially defensive Leftovers Clefable that doesn't run/click Protect, however running Hasty can achieve that, though running Hasty will weaken our matchup against some physical attackers.
• Draco Meteor is our main offensive move, and when paired with Regenerator, means that we'd often like to click Draco Meteor, followed by getting out of there to heal back up.
• Will-O-Wisp can be utilized to help cripple physical attackers on the opponents side, as well as help us wear down problematic enemies, without the risk of weakening ourselves with our attacking moves.
• Healing Wish works as a last ditch effort, sacrificing ourselves to bring a weakened teammate back as well as cure status, allowing us to help turn the tide of battle if necessary.
• Taunt will help us shut down defensive pokemon as well as set-up sweepers, and will be our main way to tackle some of our checks and counters that would otherwise shrug off our hits.
• The EV spread is a slightly modified 252 / 252 / 4 spread, putting 12 SpA into Atk to help our Flare Blitz damage as mentioned above. While it is possible to run a set of 12 Atk / 244 SpA / 252 Spe, I found out that 4 SpD helps ensure that we live 4 Scalds from a toxapex, although it is already unlikely we'll faint from 4, it gives us a better chance to help beat/weaken toxapex if they stay in, as we can shut down recovers with Taunt and then spam Draco Meteor (Calcs found below).
• An alternative EV spread is 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe with a Hasty nature to maximize special attack, while also being able to 2 hit KO specially defensive Leftovers Clefable after a Protect.

Damage calculations for the set

For note, I used Turtonator but with the stats changed to support that of CAP27.

Vs Clefable

12- Atk Life Orb Turtonator Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
12 Atk Life Orb Turtonator Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 234-277 (59.3 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (This calc is for Hasty)
0 Atk Life Orb Turtonator Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 231-273 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Turtonator: 141-166 (39.4 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Vs Sylveon

12- Atk Life Orb Turtonator Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 231-273 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
12 Atk Life Orb Turtonator Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 255-302 (64.7 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Turtonator Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 253-300 (64.2 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Turtonator: 180-213 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs Tomohawk

240 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 259-305 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
240 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 389-458 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Tomohawk Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Turtonator: 190-225 (53.2 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs Arghonaut

240 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arghonaut: 216-255 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Arghonaut Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Turtonator: 200-236 (56 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Arghonaut Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Turtonator: 224-264 (62.7 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also keep in mind unaware means that Arghonaut will ignore the -2 SpA drop from draco meteor.

Vs Hippowdon

240 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 281-331 (66.9 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
240 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 423-499 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Turtonator: 306-360 (85.7 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Turtonator: 338-402 (94.6 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Keep in mind, running Timid gives us a 12.5% chance to live after sandstorm as well.

Vs Terrakion

240 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 235-278 (72.7 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb burned Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Turtonator: 270-320 (75.6 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb burned Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Turtonator: 302-356 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs Toxapex

240 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 160-188 (52.6 - 61.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
240 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 239-283 (78.6 - 93%) -- not a KO
240 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Draco Meteor over 3 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 294-347 (96.7 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
240 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Draco Meteor over 4 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 334-395 (109.8 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed KO in 4 turns after Black Sludge recovery
240 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Draco Meteor over 5 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 374-443 (123 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed KO in 5 turns after Black Sludge recovery

0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Turtonator: 75-88 (21 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Taunting Toxapex helps us weaken it with draco meteor should we choose to stay in.

 

[Roland le preaux]

Moveset Submission #1

Name: Specially Offensive Lure
Move 1: Draco Meteor
Move 2: Fire Blast
Move 3: Dragon Pulse / Flamethrower
Move 4: Taunt / Encore
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

• Draco Meteor is a powerful STAB move that OHKOs all bulky dragons with Life Orb and enables us to break through physically defensive Seismitoad and Unaware Arghonaut.
• Fire Blast melts the Steel-types that resist Dragon moves, as well as hitting Grass-types like Jumbao and Bug-types like Aurumoth very hard. It can also break some physical walls such as Hippowdon.
• Dragon Pulse and Flamethrower are weaker but more reliable alternatives to the first 2 moves, dealing consistent damage that can pick off fragile or weakened foes. Edit: In response to concerns about these moves being too weak to run, I'd like to point out that they are approximately the same strength as Dragon Claw on physical sets (due to their higher BP). Dragon Pulse, boosted by Life Orb, is a reliable 2HKO on Terrakion. Dragon Pulse + Draco Meteor is also a stronger combination than two Draco Meteors, making CAP 27 harder to switch around on and easing prediction against mons like Keldeo, Seismitoad, and Rotom-Wash.
• Taunt is a support move with wide distribution that has found incredible support on Discord, letting us temporarily shut down passive mons like Clefable as well as setup sweepers and hazard setters.
• Encore is a move that could be a viable, if niche, alternative to Taunt. It is a particularly effective way to shut down bulky wincons like Calm Mind Clefable who can potentially break us with Moonblast after only a single turn of setup. Given our decent speed tier, I think it is a healthy utility option for us to have, even if it would not be run often.
• Regenerator is our only viable ability option, and it will help offset Life Orb recoil.
• Life Orb is necessary to supplement our unimpressive base 92 Special Attack stat, and it enables important 2HKOs on the physically-defensive walls we are seeking to lure in and break through.
• Timid is nearly mandatory as it allows CAP 27 to outpace Pajantom, Krilowatt, and Terrakion.
• This is the obligatory special option for CAP 27. I figured we should get it out of the way early. There are no real surprises here, just some basic STAB moves we are presumed to get. It is consistent with the intent of the winning stat submission by MrDollSteak.

Calcs for Special Attacks

252 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arghonaut: 218-257 (52.6 - 62%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 310-365 (102.3 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 412-489 (99.5 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kommo-o: 416-494 (117.5 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 478-564 (122.2 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 242-285 (57.6 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 220-261 (53.1 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 200-238 (50.7 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 242-289 (60.5 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 156-185 (48.2 - 57.2%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 181-214 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Turtonator Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 134-160 (44.2 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Edit: Text Replay: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EkriJgPnkxgTNvhW8iE_B9NkvcnOQdHlKsMTmScrn-o/edit
Video Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-239

Text Replay 2: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xG8UYQB6SFMb2Rv5rKAyuC0p46XScqqNlJdHRTzbBaw/edit?usp=sharing
Video Replay 2: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-241

Text Replay 3: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fkHUegv_ZXg1CyBW2dq-dfBi0c_4CKZSCvYZ8C5ER-E/edit?usp=sharing
Video Replay 3: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-247

Text Replay 4: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vf6WLlZ8dfq468LDhNQO0fyymHzfuL8McOw2ZvMeeZ0/edit?usp=sharing
Video replay 4: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-259

Moveset Submission #2

Name: Warrior Cleric
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Knock Off
Move 4: Heal Bell
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Flare Blitz is our strongest STAB move, taking out many of the Steel- and Grass-types that we want to check, such as Corviknight and Jumbao.
• Dragon Claw hits the Dragon types that resist Flare Blitz for supereffective damage, as well as hitting other Fire resists decently hard.
• Knock Off is a supportive move that provides incredible utility against mons that can comfortably deal with our STAB combination.
• Heal Bell could potentially make us one of the only decent clerics in the metagame, and it would also allow us to pivot more comfortably around mons that may be carrying Toxic, such as Toxapex and Arghonaut.
• Regenerator is our only viable ability option, and it will help offset Flare Blitz recoil.
• Heavy Duty Boots will let us ignore hazard damage and provide the longevity necessary to get off a clutch Heal Bell.
• Jolly is nearly mandatory as it allows CAP 27 to outpace Pajantom, Krilowatt, and Terrakion.

Edit: I combined this Cleric moveset submission with 99_Problems, so this one I'm withdrawing from consideration

 

[quziel]

Moveset Submission

Name: 27 go boom
Move 1: Explosion
Move 2: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Will-o-Wisp / Thunderwave
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Explosion is a proper fun move which fulfills many qualities that are desirable for an offensive support. It is technically a pivoting move, letting you get a teammate in without them taking any damage at all and it can easily remove a weakened wall, especially with support from Fire Lash. Notable matchups this impacts: If also running Fire Lash, Fire Lash into Explosion KO's Seismitoad, if Hippowdon is under 80%, Fire Lash into Explosion can KO it, if under 91.7% Toxapex has a roll to be KO'd by the combo. Flare Blitz + Explosion can KO Hippowdon under 68.5%, and Dragon Claw + Explosion can KO Seis under 81%. Of note the opponent can always click Protect or switch out on the Explosion turn. This may seem scary, but remember, a breaker that can sacrifice itself to KO a wall or put it into range of a teammate is one you will run, and is pro-concept.
• Flare Blitz is probably the safest Fire move for this set, giving consistently great damage, letting you 2hko WishTP Clefable (spdef) even through protect, albeit at the cost of your own life if you switch in (aka 2x Spdef Clef Moonblast + 2x Blitz recoil leaves you KO'd).
• Fire Lash gives up a number of 2hkos vs Flare Blitz, notably being unable to 2hko Spdef WishTP Clefable even with max rolls, and applying significantly less initial pressure, eg being unable to OHKO Spdef Corviknight after Rocks, which Flare Blitz can do. However it makes up for it by essentially denying recovery spam as an option for the opponent and helping increase the effective damage of Explosion and Dragon Claw.
• Will-o-Wisp and Thunder Wave fulfill similar roles as being very solid moves to click on an uncertain matchup, as they pretty universally can cripple stuff and support the team. Willowisp being excellent against Hippowdon and Terrakion, while Thunder Wave cripples Terrakion and means that we easily force out anything faster than us, or anything that relies on speed. Both moves help this mon function as a team breaker with TWave offering a 25% chance that the wall you need dead is missing its recovery (esp useful to Para Clef for teammates), and Willowisp putting a timer on basically everything but Clefable.
• Standard Offensive EV spread, and HDB because HDB are insanely good, if ya need further elaboration I can give it, but pretty self-explanatory.

Explosion Calcs

252 Atk Turtonator Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 207-244 (50 - 58.9%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Turtonator Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 310-365 (74.8 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Turtonator Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 128-151 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 Atk Turtonator Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 191-225 (62.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Turtonator Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 153-181 (36.4 - 43%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Turtonator Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 230-271 (54.7 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I realize I did +1 atk instead of -1 def, but the results are the same, whoops

 

[Flashrider57]

I'll openly admit that I haven't played competitive Pokémon in a while, and in fact came on here just to look around, but I wanted to comment on something said earlier in this thread that I personally had experience with, since I figure it might help with discussion and ideas.

Thunderwave worked on Celebi specifically because it hit the Dragon types that would otherwise come in on Leaf Storm + HP Fire.

In general, this actually undersells why Thunder Wave was a good option on Celebi. Sure, it kept the Dragons at bay, which Celebi struggled with, but it also made it more difficult to really go after Celebi because many of its counters hated being paralyzed. Even slower mons such as Tyranitar and Scizor who were fine with not worrying anymore about getting burned still found the paralysis chance annoying, and the risk of Thunder Wave made it a bit more of a guessing game as to whether Celebi was going to use an attacking move or a status move, since there weren't many that could properly address both threats together, and guessing wrong could make your game much harder. Plus, the combination of those threats made even more neutral matchups a bit more annoying to face against Celebi, and even other matchups throughout the game could be hampered by the paralysis. However, Celebi still had enough weaknesses (both typing-wise and 4MSS-wise, along with Leaf Storm's drop) to where it wasn't anywhere near a broken mon, although it was still something to be wary of while it was still alive, especially because the lack of team preview (at the time) would make it difficult for someone to commit too much to dealing with Celebi in case there was another threat waiting in the wings.

Mods, feel free to delete this if you think this is unnecessary or anything like that, but hopefully this at least helps even a bit.

 

[snake]

Moveset Submission

Name: Balance Breaker
Move 1: Taunt
Move 2: Fire Lash / Heat Crash / Flare Blitz
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Knock Off
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

- In reference to pip's post about having "hard utility," giving CAP27 balance breaking tools is a way to go without going to down the boring hazard route.
- Taunt is an excellent move that CAP27 should definitely have no matter what, shutting down WishPort Clefable and other bulky Pokemon.
- I think Fire Lash would be an excellent option to go alongside Taunt, but I need to edit in the calcs / test it a bit more, so Heat Crash and Flare Blitz are listed as options in the meantime.
- Dragon Claw to pressure Dragapult, Hydreigon, etc.
- Knock Off brings more team support by making Mollux afraid to switch in and generally softening up the opposing team.

*Fire Lash calcs to come*

Moveset Submission

Name: Choice Band
Move 1: Fire Lash / Heat Crash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Outrage
Move 3: Knock Off
Move 4: Trick
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

- Dual STAB options are a given and should be updated as they are allowed / disallowed. Outrage notably misses the 2HKO on Toxapex and Tomohawk (if Intimidated), and I think that Choice Band is the only set that would really want to run Outrage.
- Knock Off is a really good move to spam for a Choice Band set.
- Trick lets CAP27 dump its Choice Band onto Tomohawk and Toxapex.
- I remember a lot of people were worried about the possibility of a Choice Band set, but we can take the steps to make it as offensive support-oriented as possible with Trick. Although Trick does improve its matchup against counters, having Trick should basically should ensure that all of CAP27’s sets have some element of support attached to them, as Choice Band should be the most offensive variant of them all.

* Choice Band calcs to come *

 

[Reviloja753]

Moveset Submission

Name: Frog Catcher (Sun Support)
Move 1: Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Solar Beam
Move 4: Healing Wish / Will-o-Wisp
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 236 Atk / 20 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Naive

• Fire Lash is the weaker move here, but because of its lack of recoil and for its team support, it is preferred here. It also helps that the sun can make it as strong as a Flare Blitz outside of it.
• Flare Blitz is the stronger Fire-type STAB, but also the riskiest due to recoil. It obviously pairs very well with Regenerator, but if put on a sun core with Darmanitan, you'd probably be better off using some other Fire-type move.
• Dragon Claw is used to bypass the typical sun resists that sun can otherwise lose to or struggle with, such as Pajantom, Kyurem, or Nasty Plot Hydreigon.
• Solar Beam is the main attraction to this set, getting a guaranteed OHKO on Seismitoad and doing a lot to the five Gastrodon still around.
• Healing Wish is one of the best supporting moves we could give CAP27, as it not only helps the team out greatly, but also gives CAP27 a unique niche in being the fastest Pokemon in the game with access to Healing Wish asides from Choice Scarf Jirachi, which runs Trick on that set anyways. If there is any support move CAP27 should utilize, it's this one. In terms of what it does on a sun core or the like, it easily can use Healing Wish to restore Jumbao back to full for more sunlight or Darmanitan back to full to nuke some more holes into teams.
• Will-o-Wisp provides a different kind of support, weakening physical attackers such as Terrakion and Zeraora for team members to handle. It is worth noting that Solar Beam can 2HKO Terrakion, but as Terrakion can OHKO CAP27, your best chance against it would be to burn it and switch out, or simply burn and pray it misses Stone Edge.
• EVs and nature are to guarantee Solar Beam OHKOs Seismitoad while being as physically strong and fast as possible. Alternatively, one could run 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe investment, switching Dragon Claw for Draco Meteor, but it becomes much harder to kill Pokemon like Clefable with that EV spread.
• HDB are run because HDB is great for this Pokemon no questions asked.

20 SpA Turtonator Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 416-492 (100.4 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
20 SpA Turtonator Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 180-214 (55.7 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band burned Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Turtonator: 187-222 (71.6 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Turtonator Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 220-259 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
236 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 147-174 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
236 Atk Turtonator Fire Lash vs. -1 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 220-259 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Karoshi]

Moveset Submission

Name: Scarf User
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Knock Off/ Bulldoze / Explosion
Move 4: Switcharoo/ Healing Wish
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 4HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

• Trick/Switcharoo lets it act like all forms of Rotom, outspeeding key threats while swapping items to cripple tanks
• Scarf + Healing Wish lets it move faster then key threats while ensuring it gets off the healing wish as a sacrificial move
• Regenerator lets it heal off potential damage after it is forced out due to being Choice
• Knock off is the best coverage slot, Bulldoze for added utility and assistance on a few key matchups, Explosion for burst sacrificial damage and to allow safe switch ins

Moveset Submission

Name: Lead
Move 1: Taunt / Magic Coat
Move 2: Spikes
Move 3 Fire Lash / Knock Off / Dragon Claw
Move 4: Memento/ Explosion
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Focus Sash
EVs: 4HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

• Taunt prevents status moves, Spikes lets it set up entry hazards
• Magic Coat lets it bounce back entry hazards or taunt from other leads. Less reliable though
• Memento and Explosion let it cripple or knock out the opponent letting the next 'mon have a easier time.
  Edit: Changed the lead set slightly

 

[99_Problems]

I also want to revise my argument against hazards, because I think that Spikes in particular will be too powerful on CAP 27. Regenerator + the ability to beat most hazard removers means that we can create huge amounts of offensive pressure through hazard stacking on this mon. Other offensive spikers, such as Syclant and the now-snapped Greninja, do not have nearly the bulk that we do and totally lack recovery. They have to take on significant risk each time they try to add a layer of hazards, hoping to force a switch and avoid counterattack. Because of how frail they are, even weak passive mons can predict them to click Spikes, stay in and take a huge chunk of their health away with a single attack. The same would not be true of CAP 27, who has significantly more HP and an easy method of recovering lost health. Opponents who risk their mons to stay in and try to chip away at a spikes-stacking 27 will only be able to watch in frustration as 27 switches out, shrugging off the damage until its next opportunity to come in and add another layer. It seems too oppressive to be balanced.

I respectfully disagree with this, though you do raise some good points. 27 is a bit more frail than its stats let on due to its low defenses, and while its not Syclant or Greninja frail it definitely doesn't want to take neutral attacks from any strong attacker. I feel like the better comparison here is 27 and Roserade, who also had good reliable recovery but still was not overbearing. We also lack a major tool that both of the aforementioned mons have: U-turn. This makes spikes a much more risky option than it would appear, as every time 27 clicks spikes, it's an opportunity for a check to come in and threaten us massively.

A very good point that you had was that we beat a lot of hazards removers, which is true. However, we lose to several key mons in this role, for example: Mollux, Mandibuzz, and Collosoil. Any of these coming in on a spikes is a matchup that we want no part of, as we're unable to 2hko either of the defensive mons and lose to Collosoil in a 1v1 situation if it doesn't switch into an attack.

All that being said, here's my spikes-based sub:

Moveset Submission

Name: Offensive Spikes Support
Move 1: Spikes
Move 2: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Taunt / Encore / Will-o-wisp / Healing Wish
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 48hp/252atk/208spe
Nature: Jolly

• Spikes is the crux of this set, allowing us to turn the momentum we generate into excellent passive damage for our team.
• Dual physical stabs allow us to hit hard and generate the offensive pressure necessary to set hazards. Dragon Claw is our only real usable physical damage option here, as we never want to be locked into such an exploitable move that lacks real notable KOs for us. The choice of fire stab really comes down to preference, with Flare Blitz hitting hard right off the bat at the cost of recoil damage and Fire Lash allowing us to beat some defensive mons we otherwise wouldn't be able to muscle through.
• The last slot is very versatile, we have a lot of options here that do very different things. Taunt and Encore both let us exploit slower mons in different ways, with Taunt being more generically "good" against defensive mons and lead-style sets and Encore being situationally more powerful and allowing us to lock slower setup mons into their setup moves (if we can come in on a predicted setup). Will-o-wisp lets us cripple physical attackers and bulky grounds that try to come in on our hazards. Finally, Healing Wish is an option that fits our offensive-leaning nature while also letting us stop a Rapid Spin in a pinch
• The given EV spread lets us outspeed Terrakion, while giving us some extra bulk and maintaining our regen and stealth rock hp number.

Here's another sub that showcases what a cleric-based set could look like. It retains our offensive-ness while providing that rare utility that we want here. This is a niche that's pretty much non-existent in the current metagame:

Moveset Submission

Name: Offensive Cleric
Move 1: Aromatherapy
Move 2: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 3: Dragon Claw / Knock Off
Move 4: Will-o-wisp / Knock Off / Taunt
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252atk/4def/252spe
Nature: Jolly

• Aromatherapy lets us provide valuable status healing to our team, capitalizing on our offensive momentum and longevity to utilize a traditionally more defensive move.
• Dual physical stabs allow us to hit hard and generate the offensive pressure necessary to set hazards. Dragon Claw is our only real usable physical damage option here, as we never want to be locked into such an exploitable move that lacks real notable KOs for us. The choice of fire stab really comes down to preference, with Flare Blitz hitting hard right off the bat at the cost of recoil damage and Fire Lash allowing us to beat some defensive mons we otherwise wouldn't be able to muscle through.
• Will-o-wisp allows us to spread status of our own, crippling physical attackers.
• Knock Off can be run over either of the last two moves to heavily disrupt opponents, giving us a powerful option against things that wall us. Taunt is another option to mess with defensive and utility mons.