CAP 27 - Part 8 Moveset Discussion

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LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
First off I would like to apologize for the relative radio silence after the end of the Fire Lash, the world kinda just crashed into me those two days, so I couldn't spend the time I wanted on this. But the past is in the past, so lets get moving in the present! Lets look at some sets.

So first off, Fire Lash poll results are back with a landslide approval of allowing it. Recently there have been some concerns about its drops making way for truly offensive sets, but I am not sure of how truly large a concern this really is. I would like replays of this theoretical pure offensive set.

Anywho, now that the obstacle of Fire Lash is out of the way, I would like to approve some sets.

Moveset Submission

Name: Frog Catcher (Sun Support)
Move 1: Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Solar Beam
Move 4: Healing Wish / Will-o-Wisp
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 236 Atk / 20 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Naive

  • Fire Lash is the weaker move here, but because of its lack of recoil and for its team support, it is preferred here. It also helps that the sun can make it as strong as a Flare Blitz outside of it.
  • Flare Blitz is the stronger Fire-type STAB, but also the riskiest due to recoil. It obviously pairs very well with Regenerator, but if put on a sun core with Darmanitan, you'd probably be better off using some other Fire-type move.
  • Dragon Claw is used to bypass the typical sun resists that sun can otherwise lose to or struggle with, such as Pajantom, Kyurem, or Nasty Plot Hydreigon.
  • Solar Beam is the main attraction to this set, getting a guaranteed OHKO on Seismitoad and doing a lot to the five Gastrodon still around.
  • Healing Wish is one of the best supporting moves we could give CAP27, as it not only helps the team out greatly, but also gives CAP27 a unique niche in being the fastest Pokemon in the game with access to Healing Wish asides from Choice Scarf Jirachi, which runs Trick on that set anyways. If there is any support move CAP27 should utilize, it's this one. In terms of what it does on a sun core or the like, it easily can use Healing Wish to restore Jumbao back to full for more sunlight or Darmanitan back to full to nuke some more holes into teams.
  • Will-o-Wisp provides a different kind of support, weakening physical attackers such as Terrakion and Zeraora for team members to handle. It is worth noting that Solar Beam can 2HKO Terrakion, but as Terrakion can OHKO CAP27, your best chance against it would be to burn it and switch out, or simply burn and pray it misses Stone Edge.
  • EVs and nature are to guarantee Solar Beam OHKOs Seismitoad while being as physically strong and fast as possible. Alternatively, one could run 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe investment, switching Dragon Claw for Draco Meteor, but it becomes much harder to kill Pokemon like Clefable with that EV spread.
  • HDB are run because HDB is great for this Pokemon no questions asked.
I said I would approve this after the poll, and I remain true to my word. Its a set that is kind of neat and the addition of Solar Beam really doesn't hurt anything. Approved.

Moveset Submission

Name: 27 go boom
Move 1: Explosion
Move 2: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Will-o-Wisp / Thunderwave
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Explosion is a proper fun move which fulfills many qualities that are desirable for an offensive support. It is technically a pivoting move, letting you get a teammate in without them taking any damage at all and it can easily remove a weakened wall, especially with support from Fire Lash. Notable matchups this impacts: If also running Fire Lash, Fire Lash into Explosion KO's Seismitoad, if Hippowdon is under 80%, Fire Lash into Explosion can KO it, if under 91.7% Toxapex has a roll to be KO'd by the combo. Flare Blitz + Explosion can KO Hippowdon under 68.5%, and Dragon Claw + Explosion can KO Seis under 81%. Of note the opponent can always click Protect or switch out on the Explosion turn. This may seem scary, but remember, a breaker that can sacrifice itself to KO a wall or put it into range of a teammate is one you will run, and is pro-concept.
  • Flare Blitz is probably the safest Fire move for this set, giving consistently great damage, letting you 2hko WishTP Clefable (spdef) even through protect, albeit at the cost of your own life if you switch in (aka 2x Spdef Clef Moonblast + 2x Blitz recoil leaves you KO'd).
  • Fire Lash gives up a number of 2hkos vs Flare Blitz, notably being unable to 2hko Spdef WishTP Clefable even with max rolls, and applying significantly less initial pressure, eg being unable to OHKO Spdef Corviknight after Rocks, which Flare Blitz can do. However it makes up for it by essentially denying recovery spam as an option for the opponent and helping increase the effective damage of Explosion and Dragon Claw.
  • Will-o-Wisp and Thunder Wave fulfill similar roles as being very solid moves to click on an uncertain matchup, as they pretty universally can cripple stuff and support the team. Willowisp being excellent against Hippowdon and Terrakion, while Thunder Wave cripples Terrakion and means that we easily force out anything faster than us, or anything that relies on speed. Both moves help this mon function as a team breaker with TWave offering a 25% chance that the wall you need dead is missing its recovery (esp useful to Para Clef for teammates), and Willowisp putting a timer on basically everything but Clefable.
  • Standard Offensive EV spread, and HDB because HDB are insanely good, if ya need further elaboration I can give it, but pretty self-explanatory.
252 Atk Turtonator Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 207-244 (50 - 58.9%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Turtonator Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 310-365 (74.8 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Turtonator Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 128-151 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 Atk Turtonator Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 191-225 (62.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Turtonator Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 153-181 (36.4 - 43%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Turtonator Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 230-271 (54.7 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I realize I did +1 atk instead of -1 def, but the results are the same, whoops
I wanted to wait since Fire Lash has a large effect on it calc wise, but I have zero problems with Explosion itself, considering the trade-off of self-sacrifice. I think there is possible concern of Explosion against -2 Defenses doing too much, but that requires getting someone's defenses down to -2. I have no real problems with this set, only question really is about Thunder Wave, but I think that can be edited out if it is banned later. Approved.
As per LucarioOfLegends’ request, Roland and I collaborated to come up with the following set:

Moveset Submission

Name: Offensive Cleric
Move 1: Heal Bell
Move 2: Fire Lash
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Knock Off / Will-o-wisp
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252atk/4spd/252spe
Nature: Jolly
  • This set aims to provide cleric support for our team, a valuable niche to have in a metagame riddled with status spreaders and defined by high turn counts. Balance teams especially appreciate the ability to remove Toxic repeatedly through a long match. The aim of the set is not to outright beat most of these status users, but disrupt their gameplan enough to render them ineffective, while still maintaining offensive pressure through use of our dual stabs.
  • Heal Bell is the core move of this set.
  • Fire Lash is the Fire stab of choice, allowing us to effectively force out Clefable and threaten other defensive pokemon better than Flare Blitz, while preserving our HP and giving us more opportunities to use Heal Bell.
  • Dragon Claw deals meaningful damage to most things that resist our Fire stab, and plays very well with defense drops from Fire Lash.
  • Knock Off is the primary choice for our last moveslot, as the utility of item removal is undeniable. The combination of Hell Bell and Knock Off is especially notable for providing a consistent way to interfere with Toxapex.
  • Will-o-wisp is an alternative option that allows 27 to cripple physical attackers, while also fulfilling a similar role as Knock Off against bulky water- and ground-types with Leftovers.
  • If more bulk is desired, EVs can be divested from speed to our defensive stats. The most notable values are 224 to outspeed base 110, 208 to outspeed base 108, and 152 to outspeed base 101. A Jolly nature should always be used to hit these benchmarks.
Very happy with this: its a very clean set, but still leaves room open for other support options, like the slash of slot 4. Also really appreciate the extra touch for evs, since those will likely be good later on. Only nitpick is that Heal Bell lacks a decent description, but I am willing to forgive that considering both clerical moves have sufficient explanation in those previous sets, and the role point at the start was a great touch as well. Happily approved. :)

Moveset Submission

Name: Spike Stacker
Move 1: Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Flare Blitz
Move 3: Will-o-Wisp
Move 4: Spikes
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Fire Lash helps lay the pressure on foes with its Defense drops and pressure bulkier Pokemon like Clefable.
  • Flare Blitz is stronger but riskier than Fire Lash. Helps you exert more immediate pressure on the opponent. Can be run over or with Fire Lash, depending on how confident you feel in dealing with Fire-type resistances.
  • Dragon Claw is used to hit anything Fire Lash doesn't do well on, like opposing Fire and Dragon-types.
  • Will-o-Wisp can help against physical attackers such as Kommo-o as shown in my replay, or other Pokemon like Terrakion.
  • Spikes is great for taking advantage of CAP27's great speed tier and scary STAB combo to rack up damage to help teammates throughout the battle.
  • EVs and item are your standard affair. Self-explanatory.
After allowing Spikes back, this is probably the cleanest set and the one I am most down with approving. It works and I do think is representative of the current trend with Spikes sets, especially based on what has been seen on the server. Its very clean and concise. Approved.

I would like to approve more sets, but I do have a few points of hold on a few, and ones that I think are just unhealthy.

Moveset Submission #1

Name: Specially Offensive Lure
Move 1: Draco Meteor
Move 2: Fire Blast
Move 3: Dragon Pulse / Flamethrower
Move 4: Taunt / Encore
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
  • Draco Meteor is a powerful STAB move that OHKOs all bulky dragons with Life Orb and enables us to break through physically defensive Seismitoad and Unaware Arghonaut.
  • Fire Blast melts the Steel-types that resist Dragon moves, as well as hitting Grass-types like Jumbao and Bug-types like Aurumoth very hard. It can also break some physical walls such as Hippowdon.
  • Dragon Pulse and Flamethrower are weaker but more reliable alternatives to the first 2 moves, dealing consistent damage that can pick off fragile or weakened foes. Edit: In response to concerns about these moves being too weak to run, I'd like to point out that they are approximately the same strength as Dragon Claw on physical sets (due to their higher BP). Dragon Pulse, boosted by Life Orb, is a reliable 2HKO on Terrakion. Dragon Pulse + Draco Meteor is also a stronger combination than two Draco Meteors, making CAP 27 harder to switch around on and easing prediction against mons like Keldeo, Seismitoad, and Rotom-Wash.
  • Taunt is a support move with wide distribution that has found incredible support on Discord, letting us temporarily shut down passive mons like Clefable as well as setup sweepers and hazard setters.
  • Encore is a move that could be a viable, if niche, alternative to Taunt. It is a particularly effective way to shut down bulky wincons like Calm Mind Clefable who can potentially break us with Moonblast after only a single turn of setup. Given our decent speed tier, I think it is a healthy utility option for us to have, even if it would not be run often.
  • Regenerator is our only viable ability option, and it will help offset Life Orb recoil.
  • Life Orb is necessary to supplement our unimpressive base 92 Special Attack stat, and it enables important 2HKOs on the physically-defensive walls we are seeking to lure in and break through.
  • Timid is nearly mandatory as it allows CAP 27 to outpace Pajantom, Krilowatt, and Terrakion.
  • This is the obligatory special option for CAP 27. I figured we should get it out of the way early. There are no real surprises here, just some basic STAB moves we are presumed to get. It is consistent with the intent of the winning stat submission by MrDollSteak.
Since Madi6 withdrew their set, this is the main special set we are looking at. My biggest critique was initially on Dragon Pulse, as I felt it was overly redundant compared to Draco Meteor, but your edit adds justification to the addition so I am far less opposed. My new largest critique is the choice of Life Orb over Heavy Duty Boots, which cuts into our bulk significantly through both LO recoil and no immunity to hazards. My worry with this is that going nuclear with power via life orb will sideline our support options too heavily. This fact is supported by your replays in fact, as all of them never really show CAP27 using its support option in Taunt and Encore, but instead spam Draco and Fire moves whenever possible. I would like a bit more on why Life Orb is truly a neccesity for this set, as well as other support moves that may be used alongside these special moves, instead of just in the shadow of them.

Moveset Submission

Name: Choice Band
Move 1: Fire Lash / Heat Crash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Outrage
Move 3: Knock Off
Move 4: Trick
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

- Dual STAB options are a given and should be updated as they are allowed / disallowed. Outrage notably misses the 2HKO on Toxapex and Tomohawk (if Intimidated), and I think that Choice Band is the only set that would really want to run Outrage.
- Knock Off is a really good move to spam for a Choice Band set.
- Trick lets CAP27 dump its Choice Band onto Tomohawk and Toxapex.
- I remember a lot of people were worried about the possibility of a Choice Band set, but we can take the steps to make it as offensive support-oriented as possible with Trick. Although Trick does improve its matchup against counters, having Trick should basically should ensure that all of CAP27’s sets have some element of support attached to them, as Choice Band should be the most offensive variant of them all.

* Choice Band calcs to come *
Moveset Submission

Name: Scarf User
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Knock Off/ Coverage
Move 4: Switcharoo/ Healing Wish
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 4HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly
  • Trick/Switcharoo lets it act like all forms of Rotom, outspeeding key threats while swapping items to cripple tanks
  • Scarf + Healing Wish lets it move faster then key threats while ensuring it gets off the healing wish as a sacrificial move
  • Regenerator lets it heal off potential damage after it is forced out due to being Choice
Moveset Submission

Name: **Trickster Cleric**
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Dragon Rush
Move 3: Healing Wish / Aromatherapy
Move 4: Trick / Switcheroo
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Speed
Nature: Jolly

Set inspired by [Gen7 Ubers] Scarf Xerneas set.
  • Flare Blitz is the mandatory choice for the raw damage and to force switches. Fire Lash can be used, but Flare Blitz probably will be better in the most of the times.
  • Dragon Claw to hit Dragon-types and other Fire resists. Also, Dragon Rush can be used over it for more consistent damage at the cost of consistent accuracy. Are you feeling lucky?
  • Healing Wish to bring a teammate back to the game at the cost of CAP27's health. Aromatherapy can be considered over it as a repeatable utility, allowing CAP27 to heal its team while maintains it in the game.
  • Trick/Switcheroo to cripple some walls and passive pokémon in general as well as reckless setuppers.
  • EV spread is the same because I liked it. Also, it outspeeds 110 base Scarf users like Gengar and Kitsunoh.
I think these three sets are all fulfilling the same niche of "choice trick", but all three I think need some work. Specifically:
- snake, I would like those Choice Band calcs please, I think it is important to gauge how much power it will get through Band. Also please remove Heat Crash from both of your submissions, including Balance Breaker. That move is banned less for competitive reasoning and more optics.
-Karoshi, you mention coverage in your submission (slashed on slot 3 with knock off), but coverage is a very ecliptic term and one that needs more elaboration. We are looking very cautiously on coverage options, so please explain which ones you have in mind.
-Mr. Panda, Your EV spread has always been interesting but its especially baffling on this Choice Scarf set. I overall think that its kind of pointless to put in that extra bulk if its not actually stopping certain benchmarks, but instead just for extra bulk while cutting a very useful asset in speed. I think tying with an opposing Scarf CAP27 is just as important of an asset if that becomes the most successful set. I would like some more consideration for you as to how important that spread is to the success of CAP27, or if it is just a handicap on yourself and it would be better just to max/max.

Once these are addressed, I'll choose between the three.

Moveset Submission

Name: Screens Lead
Move 1: Reflect
Move 2: Light Screen
Move 3: Taunt
Move 4: Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Light Clay
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 224 Speed
Nature: Jolly

With a great speed tier, and reasonable bulk, CAP 27 can act as an effective Screens-setter, in a style reminiscent to Tapu Koko from Gen 7. Taunt shuts down passive Pokemon, while Reflect and Light Screen provide the team with excellent defensive utility, allowing for Hyper Offensive teams to be a little bit more able to plough through teams. Regenerator synergises well with the role of a screen setter, as it gives it further opportunities to set them up. Fire Lash is the chosen attacking option because of the utility it provides in lowering Defense, though Flare Blitz can be run for additional power.
Screens is an option that is certainly unique compared to a lot of what has been submitted so far, and could be a very fun niche. I think overall this set needs some replays for proof of its good functionality, but my largest concern is its inherent competition with Grimmsnarl as a Screens setter. The Goblin is already found its real estate on HO, but what niche does CAP27 actually have over it to find a spot on a team?

Moveset Submission

Name: Physical Attacker+Healing Wish
Move 1: Fire Lash
Move 2: Force Palm/Bulldoze
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Healing Wish
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 100 HP/ 252 Atk/ 156 Spe
Nature: Adamant
  • Full investment in Attack + Life Orb allows CAP 27 to function as a decent attacker, netting OHKOes on the likes of Pajantom, Malaconda and Jumbao with a guaranteed 2HKO on Bulk Up Corviknight, full HP Clefable, and offensive Cyclohm sets.
  • 156 EVs in Speed allow CAP 27 to outspeed full investment the likes of Pajantom with a neutral nature (Adamant, for example).
  • Bulldoze allows for speed control over faster opposition, while Force Palm is an option to inflict paralysis. Healing Wish can be used to bring in a weakened teammate if necessary.
  • A teammate with hazard control will be very important to CAP 27, as it will be affected by Stealth Rock and Spikes; especially the 25% damage from Stealth Rock can do much to nullify Regenerator recovery.
This set just needs more work. Force Palm I can assure you will not be viable coverage. The descriptions are also lacking and the overall set has been covered by better sets before.

Moveset Submission

Name: Disable Tech
Move 1: Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Disable
Move 4: Substitute / Encore
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Leftovers / Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Fire Lash is the preferred move, as dropping defenses of opposing Pokemon allow you to force out more combatants and gives you more opportunities to get up a Substitute. Flare Blitz on Encore based sets can be optional to provide more power behind its attacks to maintain offensive presense.
  • Dragon Claw is generic Dragon STAB that allows it to hit Fire type resists like Terrakion and Krilowatt for neutral damage, and hit dragon types like Cyclohm, Hydreigon and Kommo-O for supereffective damage.
  • Disable is the crux of this set, as with CAP 27's decent bulk, high speed and modest defensive typing, we can get several oppurtunities to get off a Disable on more passive threats.
  • Substitute is the generally preferred option, giving us protection from Toxic and potential paralysis, while not only guaranteeing we can stay in a turn on forced switches to annoy the opponent, but using pokemon like Toxapex as fodder. Encore can also be used, especially against set up attackers, as we generally outpace numerous of them with our great 114 Speed stat, then forcing them to switch out or struggle with a potential Disable.
I have heard a lot of people give a stink about this interaction, and I am inclined to agree. Disable and other moves, most notably those place in slot 4, are said to cause a lot of unhealthy play, and considering both take up a slot, are question about even being supportive in nature. I would generally like more replays in offense/defense of this claim from anyone who would like to make a point, but I am leaning towards banning Disable (Substitute and Encore do not appear to be the source) it if the current arguments uphold.

Moveset Submission

Name: Non Snael Webs Lead
Move 1: Sticky Web
Move 2: Taunt
Move 3: Fire Lash
Move 4: Dragon Claw / Memento
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Focus Sash
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Sticky Web is a currently unexplored hazard in the SS CAP metagame, and slowing down all non grounded members of the opposing team is an excellent form of support, particularly Speed Control.
  • Taunt not only denies the opposing team the chance to get up hazards, but stops defoggers from trying to clear away our webs as well. With our speed tier, this should generally not be a problem for CAP 27 to accomplish.
  • Fire Lash is an excellent spammable STAB option that should be run on all sets tbh.
  • Dragon Claw gives us insurace versus SR Kommo-O, while Memento is great for supporting set up sweepers on our team by giving them a safety net to start setting up.
  • Focus Sash ensures that we can near guarantee getting up Webs versus the opposing team, or at least deny hazards / hazard removal. With how Regenerator interacts with Focus Sash, a skillful player may even win the hazard matchup versus Excadrill. (Big If though)
Sticky Web I have no holds banning however. It falls into a lot of the same pitfalls of other entry hazards and I do think Spikes is perfectly adequate as our hazard of choice. More pressing however is that it seems a lot of people just really dislike Sticky Web, as it's a really annoying hazard to deal with and drags the game down. I would like to disallow Sticky Web.

Name: Ability Remover/Debuffer
Move 1: Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw / Knock Off
Move 3: Simple Beam
Move 4: Screech / Noble Roar
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Life Orb / Heavy Duty Boots /
EVs: 252 Att / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Some actually kind of works well. It is a decent Team Support move: it removes a very useful ability, although definitely supporting doubles more inherently.

However Simple Beam+ Screech or Fire Lash is rather nasty: the opponent may lose their ability and be -2 and Damaged or even -4, or their Switch In is at -2, presenting almost pseudotrap.

Noble Roar is a lesser version of Parting Shot, but works the same way if Eject Button is used especially if the target has been Simple Beamed on the switch. Bif combined with Pajantom or an Intimidator on the team, this can result in game changing moves.

Between Simple Beam, Fire Lash and Screech/Noble Roar, it causes a few momentum gathering opportunities on a Hard Switch and at worst CAP27 switches out to get Healing and tag in someone to make the most of the reduced Offenses/Defenses - indeed Pajantom's Trapping is one thing that CAP27 might fear, and I do not think that would appreciate potentially walking into a Predicted DClaw or Knock off.
This set is a gimmick, not an actual set to be used considering how it takes two turns to set up each time you come out. It also doesn't really fall under the support category very well since Noble Roar seems like a gimmick and Screech is much more to get kills. Not going to be approving this set any
Moveset Submission

Name: Support Spinner
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Rapid Spin
Move 4: Fire Lash
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Flare Blitz for powerful, consistent damage output.
  • Dragon Claw is used when you can score a neutral hit or threaten another Dragon. This is especially helpful on threats that would resist Flare Blitz and Fire Lash.
  • Rapid Spin removes hazards and provides a +1 Speed boost, making it possible to outrun Zeraora and Scarved Dragons. Both functions are critical in providing effective support and winning matchups. Regenerator combined with Heavy-Duty Boots allows multiple opportunities to attempt hazard removal.
  • Fire Lash provides a STAB option that provides incredible pressure on opposing defensive Pokemon, and limits offensive counterplay. The range of utility this provides makes it much easier to find room to use Rapid Spin.
Moveset Submission

Name: Utility
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Rapid Spin
Move 4: Spikes
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

  • Flare Blitz allows CAP27 consistent damage output for its teammates.
  • Dragon Claw is useful against slower Dragon-types who would come in to resist CAP27’s Fire-type STAB
  • Rapid Spin allows CAP27 to remove hazards from its side of the field, allowing for its teammates to be prevented from being worn down, furthering its ability as an offensive support Pokemon.
  • Spikes allows CAP27 to wear down foes switching in, allowing its teammates to clean and break more easily, furthering its ability as an offensive support Pokemon.
I'm mentioning both because I think they bring up the solid question of Rapid Spin with this set. Based on the high consensus, Spikes has proven to be a fan favorite move for CAP27, but I wonder if Rapid Spin (or Defog) will end up being too much for CAP, at least moveslot wise. I do think that the latter set is a distinct possibility if both are given, which hogs both our utility slots with top tier support moves. Deck Knight's set also holds water as for its capability (although I feel the replays are a bit too hard to read but not much helping that atm) which gives Rapid Spin some contention. Spikes is very much a given at this point, so my question to you the thread is thus: Should we allow Rapid Spin and/or Defog as well?

I have some other things I need to hit, but I will do so in a slightly smaller post.
 
I'd like to take the time to discuss Disable. I have played multiple games against it, and it just is very annoying to play against, having the potential to basically reverse games entirely. As such, I would like to advocate for Disable to be banned. I had two replays, but one of them glitched out of existence, so I shall only be able to describe to you what occurred in regards to CAP27 in my first match. For reference, here is my set. It's simply a version of my Spike stacker set. Watch Madoka Magica.
Madoka (cap27) (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Fire Lash
- Will-O-Wisp
- Spikes


Match #1
Since this replay got messed up, all I will say is that in regards to Disable, I had brought out Calm Mind Mollux to handle CAP27, but it used Substitute and Disable to force me out. I had clicked Calm Mind as it clicked Fire Lash, doing a decent amount and lowering its Defense. It then clicked Substitute as I clicked Sludge Bomb. I then clicked Sludge Bomb again expecting a Substitute, but it then used Fire Lash, putting me at just over half health with half my Defense. I then foolishly clicked Recover as it clicked Substitute. I clicked Sludge Bomb the next turn to break the sub as it clicked Fire Lash, with me barely holding on. It then disabled Sludge Bomb as I recovered. The next turn, it clicked Substitute, and Lava Plume managed to crit and break it. At this point, I switched out into my Guts Colossoil. I then managed to get a Sucker Punch off to kill it if I am remembering correctly. CAP27 was actually one of two Pokemon Roland had left when CAP27 did what it did, and his last Pokemon was Pajantom. As such, I won with a Sucker Punch.

As for what I felt of Disable, I just felt it was very oppressive, and had I not crit with Lava Plume, I'm convinced I would have lost the match. I also feel it makes our matchup against Mollux way too one-sided for a pressure. There is no realistic scenario where a Mollux is able to kill a Sub + Disable CAP27.

Match #2
This is the match with the working replay, which you can find here. I will be going over highlights in relation to CAP27, primarily the Sub + Disable set Roland was running.

The match goes on back and forth as a typical match does up until turn 21, which is when the full set of CAP27 is utilized. To this point, I had 4 mons left, which while wounded, my worst Pokemon was my 45% health Kerfluffle, which had a Life Orb anyway. Roland had 3 mons left, which were a Kerfluffle at 6%, and a Corviknight and CAP27 at half health each. It's fair to say I was in a good position. Then CAP27 comes out, with my full health Mollux in, albeit one that had Parting Shot clicked on it. I clicked Sludge Bomb on its Substitute, which miraculously broke the sub. Here is where things get interesting. Knowing the set and predicting a Disable was coming my way, I switch back into my Kerfluffle, which is then promplty Fire Lash'd to death, leading me to go into Mollux again. While I do think this was merely a case of a lucky guess or the fact we used the same teams in our first match as our second, I do think this turn of events points to a potential issue SubDisable can cause. The set can very easily cause a lot of 50/50s once CAP27 is behind a sub. Is it going to disable a move? Or is it about to blow away my switch-in that is meant to avoid the Disable? This is just another example as to why I feel Disable should get the axe.

After that, it switches out into Corviknight during a Calm Mind and I proceed to kill it with Lava Plume, with CAP27 coming back in. It ends up disabling my Sludge Bomb as I Lava Plume, and from 36% takes 17% from a +1 Lava Plume. It then Fire Lashes as I Calm Mind again, then kills my last answer to CAP27 on me team with a Dragon Claw. While it was a critical hit, and it would've died to Lava Plume had it not crit, I do feel my argument still stands that had it not had been Sub + Disable, I would have had a much easier time handling CAP27 with my Mollux. It then proceeded to sweep the 2 Pokemon I had left, as my CAP27 set lacked Dragon Claw.

In conclusion, Disable is a move that is very obnoxious to play against, can reverse matches on the fly, and heavily swings the Mollux matchup into our direction to a degree I feel is excessive for something that is meant to have a fighting chance against us. As such, I feel it should be banned.
 
-Karoshi, you mention coverage in your submission (slashed on slot 3 with knock off), but coverage is a very ecliptic term and one that needs more elaboration. We are looking very cautiously on coverage options, so please explain which ones you have in mind.
I was being vague on purpose because we have to be careful on what coverage to give it. I've heard discussion on BP 60 or lower moves (Bulldoze, Thunder Fang, etc) as well as moves with poor coverage such as Psychic Fangs (Helps in a few matchups but nothing too crazy). The primary attacks (Fire+Dragon STABs) are going to be the go to option 99.9% of the time where as the third option is only there for when choice is no longer a limiting factor (non-STAB moves are terrible to be locked into) or in situations where it is absolutely necessary to be clocked.

If I had to actually pick a coverage move to put there it would be Bulldoze, Brick Break, Explosion or Accelerock / Bullet Punch / Sucker Punch. Bulldoze provides support by lowering stats as well as hits several Pokemon particularly Mollux hard, Brick Break would be the strongest move recommended but while the coverage is strong the move itself if fairly weak. That said being able to remove Reflect, Lightscreen and Aurora Veil on a coverage move does bring utility. Explosion lets it have a suicide option to take out Pokemon that would otherwise sweep through your team. Lastly would be the increased priority moves. 40 BP is not strong at all and would be better on a Banded set, however they provide one key advantage on this set which is they can outspeed scarf users or guaranteeing taking down a weakened 'mon. Accelerock and Bullet Punch were chosen because of the best coverage without being ridiculous (i.e. Ice Shard) while Sucker Punch, while having more BP, is suggested solely for Dragapult.

I'm not advocating for any in particular as I feel Knock Off would be the best choice, again I stand by being vague in my last suggestion. I feel like any coverage move we do end up giving CAP27 would be useful in that slot to some degree so long as it is a usable option. I trust other people opinions on 'coverage' far better then my own in this regard.
 
Time for my share some of my thoughts again:

Rapid Spin/Defog: I'm not a fan of these moves. Hazard removal is a extremely important part of virtually every team, so if CAP 27 ends up as an effective user of these moves, I believe they'll probably end up overshadowing a lot of our other support options like Will-O-Wisp, Knock Off, or Taunt and might result in a much more lineal final product that lacks the versatility that our concept suggests. Alternatively, if CAP 27 doesn't use them (something admittedly very possible too, as our matchup against important setters like Seismitoad is dubious), then these moves only serve to bloat of movepool for no reason. Basically, I think these moves will end up as either useless or so good they overshadow a huge portion of our support moves. Rapid Spin also raises our speed, something that doesn't relate to our concept at all and just messes with checks like Scarf Hydreigon for no real reason. I admit I can see some merit on Defog, which has bad synergy with Spikes, probably our most powerful tool at the moment, meaning that CAP 27 would have to pick between these powerful moves (something similar to current Tomohawk sets that alternate between Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin), but I think there are more interesting options for CAP 27 sets that forgo Spikes.

Thunder Wave: I haven't seen much of this move on the server, and I think I can see why. CAP 27 tends to attract Ground-types like Seismitoad, and this move is a dead slot against them, while other common checks like Toxapex are more mildly annoyed than crippled by paralysis. It still has many potential uses, as a single full paralysis can always be game-changing and many slower breakers will appreciate this kind of support. making it a solid move to include in my eyes.

Toxic: This moves cripples a lot of our best checks bar Toxapex, although in practice CAP 27 doesn't seem to get as many opportunities to use it as one would like, and many mons like Hippowdon and Tomohawk can still act as reasonable checks after being poisoned, at least in the vacuum. For now this seems like a reasonable inclusion, but I'd still like to see more people testing this move and sharing their opinion on it, because I think this might be stronger than it currently appears.

Coverage moves in general: As I said in my previous post, I dislike coverage for CAP 27 on principle. Our STABs already cover the metagame really well, and we should be using our last two slot for utility, so trying to include purely offensive moves detracts from this goal. Choice sets might be good options in practice, but I don't think we should encourage them outside of adding Trick/Switcheroo, as they might even fill their final moveslot with with more pro-concept moves like Healing Wish or Thunder Wave (The current Scarf sets for Hydreigon and Jirachi are good examples of this). Brick Break might have some utility in theory, but unlike Knock Off, which is regularly run by Pokemon solely for removing items, it would only be used for extra damage against Terrakion and Tyranitar (Pokemon that are supposed to check us), its utility would be a small plus that almost never gets used. Sucker Punch only serves to undermine Dragapult as a check without providing any real utility in exchange. Bulldoze is probably the only coverage mentioned so far I don't mind, (apart from Knock Off of course) as it helps us against Zeraora and Mollux, mons that shouldn't have an easy time against us.

Flame Charge: This move hasn't been mentioned a single time, and for a good reason, as it is blatantly anti-concept, boosting our speed and encouraging CAP 27 to be sweeper/cleaner. However, I could see some movepool trying to include this move, as it's not an unreasonable flavor addition, so I think it should still be discussed. I'd like to see it banned, unless people can show some good replays of it being completely useless in practice.
 

G-Luke

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I'd like to take the time to discuss Disable. I have played multiple games against it, and it just is very annoying to play against, having the potential to basically reverse games entirely. As such, I would like to advocate for Disable to be banned. I had two replays, but one of them glitched out of existence, so I shall only be able to describe to you what occurred in regards to CAP27 in my first match. For reference, here is my set. It's simply a version of my Spike stacker set. Watch Madoka Magica.
Madoka (cap27) (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Fire Lash
- Will-O-Wisp
- Spikes


Match #1
Since this replay got messed up, all I will say is that in regards to Disable, I had brought out Calm Mind Mollux to handle CAP27, but it used Substitute and Disable to force me out. I had clicked Calm Mind as it clicked Fire Lash, doing a decent amount and lowering its Defense. It then clicked Substitute as I clicked Sludge Bomb. I then clicked Sludge Bomb again expecting a Substitute, but it then used Fire Lash, putting me at just over half health with half my Defense. I then foolishly clicked Recover as it clicked Substitute. I clicked Sludge Bomb the next turn to break the sub as it clicked Fire Lash, with me barely holding on. It then disabled Sludge Bomb as I recovered. The next turn, it clicked Substitute, and Lava Plume managed to crit and break it. At this point, I switched out into my Guts Colossoil. I then managed to get a Sucker Punch off to kill it if I am remembering correctly. CAP27 was actually one of two Pokemon Roland had left when CAP27 did what it did, and his last Pokemon was Pajantom. As such, I won with a Sucker Punch.

As for what I felt of Disable, I just felt it was very oppressive, and had I not crit with Lava Plume, I'm convinced I would have lost the match. I also feel it makes our matchup against Mollux way too one-sided for a pressure. There is no realistic scenario where a Mollux is able to kill a Sub + Disable CAP27.

Match #2
This is the match with the working replay, which you can find here. I will be going over highlights in relation to CAP27, primarily the Sub + Disable set Roland was running.

The match goes on back and forth as a typical match does up until turn 21, which is when the full set of CAP27 is utilized. To this point, I had 4 mons left, which while wounded, my worst Pokemon was my 45% health Kerfluffle, which had a Life Orb anyway. Roland had 3 mons left, which were a Kerfluffle at 6%, and a Corviknight and CAP27 at half health each. It's fair to say I was in a good position. Then CAP27 comes out, with my full health Mollux in, albeit one that had Parting Shot clicked on it. I clicked Sludge Bomb on its Substitute, which miraculously broke the sub. Here is where things get interesting. Knowing the set and predicting a Disable was coming my way, I switch back into my Kerfluffle, which is then promplty Fire Lash'd to death, leading me to go into Mollux again. While I do think this was merely a case of a lucky guess or the fact we used the same teams in our first match as our second, I do think this turn of events points to a potential issue SubDisable can cause. The set can very easily cause a lot of 50/50s once CAP27 is behind a sub. Is it going to disable a move? Or is it about to blow away my switch-in that is meant to avoid the Disable? This is just another example as to why I feel Disable should get the axe.

After that, it switches out into Corviknight during a Calm Mind and I proceed to kill it with Lava Plume, with CAP27 coming back in. It ends up disabling my Sludge Bomb as I Lava Plume, and from 36% takes 17% from a +1 Lava Plume. It then Fire Lashes as I Calm Mind again, then kills my last answer to CAP27 on me team with a Dragon Claw. While it was a critical hit, and it would've died to Lava Plume had it not crit, I do feel my argument still stands that had it not had been Sub + Disable, I would have had a much easier time handling CAP27 with my Mollux. It then proceeded to sweep the 2 Pokemon I had left, as my CAP27 set lacked Dragon Claw.

In conclusion, Disable is a move that is very obnoxious to play against, can reverse matches on the fly, and heavily swings the Mollux matchup into our direction to a degree I feel is excessive for something that is meant to have a fighting chance against us. As such, I feel it should be banned.
Not to be dismissive, but Disable in particular didn't seem to be the deciding factor of that match. at that point it seemed like clicking Calm Mind was a bad move in general, as if you continued with Plume Mollux would have won you the game. And from what i have gathered in the first replay you won in spite of facing Disable CAP 27, not actually showing it being particularly broken. Mollux not being apart of the C&C i think CAP 27's matchup versus it displayed in the match was a fine one, and other variants such as Thunder Wave or Knock Off CAP 27 would have given you similiar results. I think it is perfectly fine to dislike Disable sets, but I think more structured arguments should be put forward to dismiss them.

Anyways, its 3 AM so here is a wonky set.

Moveset Submission

Name: Dual Status
Move 1: Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Lovely Kiss
Move 4: Will O Wisp
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Fire Lash is the preferred move, as dropping defenses of opposing Pokemon allow you to force out more combatants and gives you more opportunities to get up a Substitute. Flare Blitz on Encore based sets can be optional to provide more power behind its attacks to maintain offensive presense.
  • Dragon Claw is generic Dragon STAB that allows it to hit Fire type resists like Terrakion and Krilowatt for neutral damage, and hit dragon types like Cyclohm, Hydreigon and Kommo-O for supereffective damage.
  • Lovely Kiss allows CAP 27 to put foes to sleep, decommissioning at least one member of the opposing team and allowing the user chances to take advantage and gain momentum.
  • Will O Wisp is to further cause mayhem and still enables CAP 27 to provide support once one Pokemon is put to sleep.
Dual Status is something that i am surprised has not gotten a dedicated set / post about it, so i have decided to craft one. The main difference here is that instead of going for burning and paralysis, I went for burning and sleep induction. Sleep is not a mechanic that is played around much with in the SS CAP metagame, as classic Spore users like Breloom and Amoonguss are no longer with us, and thus I think it is an interesting option to take CAP 27 in. Lovely Kiss seemed like the sleep inducing move that was the most balanced to give CAP 27, as 100% accuracy sleep is not the direction I really wanted CAP 27 to go (and Spore on a non mushroom non Grass type? **screams in flavour**). Anyways critique is welcome and I wanted to get this in here from now because I want to know, does the community think CAP 27 should get sleep inducing moves?
 
My laptop is currently getting repaired, so I have been unable to play more test server games or add more replays, but I'd like to follow up with explanations for my choices on the "specially offensive lure" moveset submission.

First, the Life Orb as an item choice is crucial to the function of the set, as without it most of the important 2HKOs are unable to be achieved on the physical walls that it is seeking to lure and eliminate. Hippodown, Argonaut, Tomohawk, Rotom-Wash, and Seismitoad are the important members of this list, and the first 3 have access to reliable recovery moves, meaning that they can effectively and repeatedly wall any set that doesn't 2HKO them. While any Life Orb CAP 27 set is guaranteed to be more offensive than a Heavy Duty Boots variant, it won't change the fact that we lack coverage and will have numerous ways to support our team for our 3rd and 4th moveslots.

Speaking of which, the reason I chose Taunt and Encore as my support options is because any special set on CAP 27 is making a huge power trade-off in order to lure and eliminate physical walls. Namely, it is sacrificing the ability to pressure the most prominent set in the metagame: specially defensive Clefable. Therefore, once the special moves have been revealed, Clefable becomes an easy counter to our attacks. Taunt is an acceptable and valuable way to stop this Wish-port Clef set from supporting its team by spamming Wish or Teleport once it comes in. Encore is a niche alternative to stop Calm Mind Clefable for teams that lack answers to it, and it can also provide utility against opposing supports like specially-defensive Mandibuzz that can switch into this set.

Now that Spikes has been approved, it is a powerful and a bit obvious substitution for either the 3rd or 4th moveslot on my set. But given how controversial it has been throughout this thread, I hope everyone can understand why I opted not to include it originally. If anyone else can playtest and post replays of a specially offensive lure moveset, I encourage you to do so. Otherwise I may have to just let my reasoning speak for itself.

Edit: In response to feedback on Discord, as well as a concern that Taunt, a move everybody seemed to love for CAP 27, will not be approved before this thread closes, here is a different version of my special set. It features Spikes, which has already been approved, as well as moves that I am told are "type-implied" because of their wide distribution.

Edit 2: I have recombined my Taunt and Encore Submissions.

Moveset Submission

Name: Specially Offensive Spikes
Move 1: Draco Meteor
Move 2: Fire Blast
Move 3: Spikes
Move 4: Taunt / Encore
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
  • Draco Meteor is a powerful STAB move that OHKOs most bulky dragons.
  • Fire Blast melts the Steel-types that resist Dragon moves, as well as hitting Grass-types like Jumbao and Bug-types like Aurumoth very hard.
  • Spikes helps support our team on predicted switches, by stacking hazards that will deal chip damage to the opponent's Pokemon.
  • Taunt is a support move that lets us temporarily shut down Clefable, which otherwise easily switches into this set. It also stops foes like specially-defensive Mandibuzz from using Defog to get rid of our spikes.
  • Encore is a way to force out passive mons by locking them into their utility moves. It is a particularly effective way to stop Calm Mind Clefable, a dangerous sweeper that all teams should be prepared for.
  • Regenerator is our only viable ability option.
  • Heavy Duty boots lets us ignore hazards, especially Stealth Rock which we are weak to.
  • Timid is nearly mandatory as it allows CAP 27 to outpace Pajantom, Krilowatt, and Terrakion.
  • With Taunt, this is a niche special option that attempts to make use of our middling base 92 Special Attack. It deals more consistent damage than the physical set against a few threats like Kommo-o, Dracovish, Cyclohm, and physically-defensive Seismitoad.
  • Encore creates a niche set that values CAP 27 for its ability to answer CM Clefable, as well as other bulky wincons that it naturally outspeeds, like Reuniclus and Bulk Up Corviknight.
Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-268
 
Last edited:

Texas Cloverleaf

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Very late to this but my 2 cents

Looking as the build so far I see a strong parallel to Gliscor. Slightly better stat pool, much worse defensive typing. The roles you've defined it to fill similarly match Gliscor.

Taunt is an obvious no-brainer option. Fast Taunt on an offensively geared typing like fire/dragon is a relevant niche

Anyone marking Dragon Claw on their set needs to find something else. This base attack stat hasn't cut for Dragon Claw since gen 4

I want to strongly recommend you re-allow set up moves. Someone mentioned before and I echo it here, the biggest challenge this mon will face is in the teambuilder, finding a distinctive niche to fill.

Similarly to Gliscor, the taunt stallbreaker/offensive pivot role only works when you have the capacity to punish the free turns you generate through the form of setup or hazards.

At the base stat line you've defined this mon has neither the bulk not the offensive prowess to have it's primary role as a set up sweeper (toxapex hard counters anything it can do if it forgoes taunt etc) and so offering it Swords Dance (or Meditate) can be considered reasonably safe, if not necessary for the concept to be successful
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Couple thoughts on what was mentioned:

Fast, somewhat reliable sleep is dangerous. Jynx carved out niches for itself despite being otherwise deplorable by being a fast pokemon with a relatively accurate sleep move (and at 115 SpA could actually put some damage out). CAP 27 is infinitely better than that, with a much better speed tier and an ability that provides longevity. Amoonguss is a Regenerator Pokemon with reliable sleep, but it's also slow and has minimal offensive capacity.

If any set up is allowed, Hone Claws is probably the ideal power balance. Hone Claws lets you run Dragon Rush as your Dragon STAB, ameliorating a lot of power issues and patching up accuracy, but being somewhat unreliable without having set up Hone Claws first.

With that in mind, I have some Replays from the AV Set (Flare Blitz/FIre Lash/Nuzzle/Circle Throw) I'd like to share. Unfortunately even though the server was updated, It wouldn't allow me to Upload replays, so I have more long github files.

https://github.com/DeckKnight/27Tes...P-2020-05-16-deckknight-aetherl AV Test1.html
https://github.com/DeckKnight/27Tes...P-2020-05-16-deckknight-aetherl AV Test2.html
https://github.com/DeckKnight/27Tes...P-2020-05-16-deckknight-aetherl AV Test3.html

Code:
|switch|p1a: Sir Axlot|cap27, F|375\/375
|-damage|p1a: Sir Axlot|282\/375|[from] Stealth Rock
|move|p2a: Mandibuzz|Defog|p1a: Sir Axlot
|-unboost|p1a: Sir Axlot|evasion|1
|-sideend|p1: Deck Knight|Stealth Rock|[from] move: Defog|[of] p2a: Mandibuzz
|-sideend|p2: Aetherl|Spikes|[from] move: Defog|[of] p2a: Mandibuzz
|-sideend|p2: Aetherl|Stealth Rock|[from] move: Defog|[of] p2a: Mandibuzz
|
|upkeep
|turn|34


|
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Nuzzle|p2a: Mandibuzz
|-supereffective|p2a: Mandibuzz
|-damage|p2a: Mandibuzz|65\/100
|-status|p2a: Mandibuzz|par
|move|p2a: Mandibuzz|Foul Play|p1a: Sir Axlot
|-damage|p1a: Sir Axlot|123\/375
|
|upkeep
|turn|35
This team tries to Hazard Stack and use Nuzzle and Circle Throw to spread around paralysis and hazard damage. I switched in on Mandibuzz knowing it would Defog, and since Mandibuzz tends to run Foul Play to 2HKO CAP, I know this is a trade to paralyze it so it has trouble Defogging/Roosting later.

Code:
|move|p2a: Venusaur|Giga Drain|p1a: Ugly
|-crit|p1a: Ugly
|-damage|p1a: Ugly|188\/394
|-damage|p2a: Venusaur|91\/100|[from] item: Life Orb
|move|p1a: Ugly|Teleport|p1a: Ugly


|
|switch|p1a: Sir Axlot|cap27, F|248\/375
|
|-weather|SunnyDay|[upkeep]
|-heal|p1a: Sir Axlot|375\/375|[from] move: Wish|[wisher] Ugly
|upkeep
|turn|43


|
|switch|p2a: Kommo-o|Kommo-o, M|91\/100
|-damage|p2a: Kommo-o|85\/100|[from] Stealth Rock
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Flare Blitz|p2a: Kommo-o
|-resisted|p2a: Kommo-o
|-damage|p2a: Kommo-o|62\/100
|-damage|p1a: Sir Axlot|348\/375|[from] Recoil
|
|-weather|SunnyDay|[upkeep]
|-heal|p2a: Kommo-o|68\/100|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|44


|
|switch|p2a: Mandibuzz|Mandibuzz, F|53\/100 par
|-damage|p2a: Mandibuzz|28\/100 par|[from] Stealth Rock
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Nuzzle|p2a: Mandibuzz
|-supereffective|p2a: Mandibuzz
|-damage|p2a: Mandibuzz|18\/100 par
|
|-weather|none
|upkeep
|turn|45


|
|switch|p2a: Kommo-o|Kommo-o, M|68\/100
|-damage|p2a: Kommo-o|62\/100|[from] Stealth Rock
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Flare Blitz|p2a: Kommo-o
|-resisted|p2a: Kommo-o
|-damage|p2a: Kommo-o|46\/100
|-damage|p1a: Sir Axlot|330\/375|[from] Recoil
|
|-heal|p2a: Kommo-o|53\/100|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|46


|
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Nuzzle|p2a: Kommo-o
|-resisted|p2a: Kommo-o
|-damage|p2a: Kommo-o|51\/100
|-status|p2a: Kommo-o|par
|move|p2a: Kommo-o|Earthquake|p1a: Sir Axlot
|-supereffective|p1a: Sir Axlot
|-damage|p1a: Sir Axlot|110\/375
|
|-heal|p2a: Kommo-o|57\/100 par|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|47
I get CAP 27 back in under Sun from a Wishport, and use the damage boost to pressure Kommo-o and Mandibuzz. I try to paralyze Kommo-o, but Aetherl switches back to Mandibuzz. Mandibuzz can't afford to stay in, so Kommo-o comes back in, gets Nuzzled in exchange for an Earthquake. I switch CAP 27 out afterward.

Code:
|move|p2a: Venusaur|Earth Power|p1a: Sir Axlot
|-supereffective|p1a: Sir Axlot
|-damage|p1a: Sir Axlot|134\/375
|-damage|p2a: Venusaur|11\/100|[from] item: Life Orb
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Fire Lash|p2a: Venusaur
|-supereffective|p2a: Venusaur
|-damage|p2a: Venusaur|0 fnt
|faint|p2a: Venusaur
|
|-weather|SunnyDay|[upkeep]
|upkeep
CAP 27 is now in a pretty good position to dismantle the rest of the sun team, but Venusaur's +2 Earth Power could be a problem, so I can't let it set up. Eventually I get 27 in and out again with Rotom-H Volt Switch, and have enough HP to afford eating an Earth Power through Assault Vest.
Code:
|switch|p1a: Sir Axlot|cap27, F|375\/375
|move|p2a: Krilowatt|Volt Switch|p1a: Sir Axlot
|-resisted|p1a: Sir Axlot
|-damage|p1a: Sir Axlot|324\/375


|
|switch|p2a: Dragapult|Dragapult, M|100\/100|[from]move: Volt Switch
|-damage|p2a: Dragapult|84\/100|[from] Spikes
|
|upkeep
|turn|23


|
|move|p2a: Dragapult|Thunder Wave|p1a: Sir Axlot
|-status|p1a: Sir Axlot|par
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Nuzzle|p2a: Dragapult
|-resisted|p2a: Dragapult
|-damage|p2a: Dragapult|80\/100
|-status|p2a: Dragapult|par
|
|upkeep
|turn|24
AV CAP 27 is as good a switch in to a predicted Volt Switch as any, and I also know AV 27 can survive an unboosted Meteor from Dragapult. That isn't the set though, and we end up trading paralysis, probably worse for Dragapult than for 27 given this isn't purely an offensive set. Eventually after a few rounds of hazard setting and removal, Aetherl forfeits.
Code:
|switch|p2a: cap27|cap27, F|100\/100
|move|p1a: HAL|Overheat|p2a: cap27
|-resisted|p2a: cap27
|-damage|p2a: cap27|77\/100
|-unboost|p1a: HAL|spa|2
|
|upkeep
|turn|9


|
|switch|p1a: Topham Hat|Weezing-Galar, M|334\/334
|-ability|p1a: Topham Hat|Neutralizing Gas
|move|p2a: cap27|Flare Blitz|p1a: Topham Hat
|-damage|p1a: Topham Hat|139\/334
|-damage|p2a: cap27|59\/100|[from] Recoil
|
|-heal|p1a: Topham Hat|159\/334|[from] item: Black Sludge
|upkeep
|turn|10


|
|switch|p1a: Sir Axlot|cap27, M|375\/375
|move|p2a: cap27|Flare Blitz|p1a: Sir Axlot
|-resisted|p1a: Sir Axlot
|-damage|p1a: Sir Axlot|288\/375
|-damage|p2a: cap27|51\/100|[from] Recoil
|
|upkeep
|turn|11
This is the moment where I realize Aetherl's CAP 27 is Banded. Fortunately, CAP27 is a good switchin to its own Flare Blitz, so I pivot in on that and save Weezing for later.

Code:
|
|switch|p2a: Tomohawk|Tomohawk, M|100\/100
|-ability|p2a: Tomohawk|Intimidate|boost
|-unboost|p1a: Sir Axlot|atk|1
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Fire Lash|p2a: Tomohawk
|-damage|p2a: Tomohawk|81\/100
|-unboost|p2a: Tomohawk|def|1
|
|-heal|p2a: Tomohawk|87\/100|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|12


|
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Nuzzle|p2a: Tomohawk
|-supereffective|p2a: Tomohawk
|-damage|p2a: Tomohawk|77\/100
|-status|p2a: Tomohawk|par
|move|p2a: Tomohawk|Hurricane|p1a: Sir Axlot
|-damage|p1a: Sir Axlot|168\/375
|-start|p1a: Sir Axlot|confusion
|
|-heal|p2a: Tomohawk|83\/100 par|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|13
AV comes in very handy against Tomohawk, allowing me to paralyze it while taking minimal damage, then swap out. Not work risking confusion damage. 27 will fight another day.

Code:
|move|p1a: Jack Sparrow|Knock Off|p2a: Tomohawk
|-resisted|p2a: Tomohawk
|-damage|p2a: Tomohawk|65\/100 par
|-enditem|p2a: Tomohawk|Leftovers|[from] move: Knock Off|[of] p1a: Jack Sparrow
|move|p2a: Tomohawk|Rapid Spin|p1a: Jack Sparrow
|-damage|p1a: Jack Sparrow|396\/414
|-boost|p2a: Tomohawk|spe|1
|-sideend|p2: Aetherl|Spikes|[from] move: Rapid Spin|[of] p2a: Tomohawk
|
|-heal|p1a: Jack Sparrow|414\/414|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|24


|
|switch|p1a: Sir Axlot|cap27, M|375\/375
|move|p2a: Tomohawk|Roost|p2a: Tomohawk
|-heal|p2a: Tomohawk|100\/100 par
|-singleturn|p2a: Tomohawk|move: Roost
|
|upkeep
|turn|25


|
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Fire Lash|p2a: Tomohawk
|-damage|p2a: Tomohawk|76\/100 par
|-unboost|p2a: Tomohawk|def|1
|move|p2a: Tomohawk|Hurricane|p1a: Sir Axlot
|-damage|p1a: Sir Axlot|255\/375
|
|upkeep
|turn|26


|
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Fire Lash|p2a: Tomohawk
|-damage|p2a: Tomohawk|39\/100 par
|-unboost|p2a: Tomohawk|def|1
|move|p2a: Tomohawk|Hurricane|p1a: Sir Axlot|[miss]
|-miss|p2a: Tomohawk|p1a: Sir Axlot
|
|upkeep
|turn|27


|
|switch|p2a: Clefable|Clefable, F|100\/100
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Fire Lash|p2a: Clefable
|-damage|p2a: Clefable|65\/100
|-unboost|p2a: Clefable|def|1
|
|-heal|p2a: Clefable|71\/100|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|28


|
|move|p2a: Clefable|Protect|p2a: Clefable
|-singleturn|p2a: Clefable|Protect
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Circle Throw|p2a: Clefable
|-activate|p2a: Clefable|move: Protect
|
|-heal|p2a: Clefable|77\/100|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|29


|
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Flare Blitz|p2a: Clefable
|-damage|p2a: Clefable|0 fnt
|-damage|p1a: Sir Axlot|156\/375|[from] Recoil
|faint|p2a: Clefable
|
|upkeep
This is a fairly standard interaction with CAP 27. With its Leftovers removed and paralysis, this is a pretty save interaction to keep 27 in on. Tomohawk's damage is reduced by AV, and Fire Lash keeps up fairly good pressure, with Flare Blitz in the back for burst damage. I throw out a Circle Throw on Clefable in case it tries to hard switch out (it will also hit before Teleport and generate a random phaze instead of a controlled switch). I eventually catch Clefable.

Code:
|switch|p2a: Aegislash|Aegislash, F|100\/100
|-damage|p2a: Aegislash|94\/100|[from] Stealth Rock
|move|p1a: Ugly|Teleport|p1a: Ugly


|
|switch|p1a: Sir Axlot|cap27, M|281\/375
|
|upkeep
|turn|38


|
|switch|p2a: Tomohawk|Tomohawk, M|72\/100 par
|-damage|p2a: Tomohawk|60\/100 par|[from] Stealth Rock
|-ability|p2a: Tomohawk|Intimidate|boost
|-unboost|p1a: Sir Axlot|atk|1
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Flare Blitz|p2a: Tomohawk
|-damage|p2a: Tomohawk|36\/100 par
|-damage|p1a: Sir Axlot|248\/375|[from] Recoil
|
|upkeep
|turn|39


|
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Fire Lash|p2a: Tomohawk
|-damage|p2a: Tomohawk|18\/100 par
|-unboost|p2a: Tomohawk|def|1
|move|p2a: Tomohawk|Roost|p2a: Tomohawk
|-heal|p2a: Tomohawk|68\/100 par
|-singleturn|p2a: Tomohawk|move: Roost
|
|upkeep
|turn|40


|
|switch|p2a: Krilowatt|Krilowatt, M|58\/100
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Circle Throw|p2a: Krilowatt
|-damage|p2a: Krilowatt|48\/100
|drag|p2a: Equilibra|Equilibra|100\/100
|-damage|p2a: Equilibra|98\/100|[from] Stealth Rock
|
|-heal|p2a: Equilibra|100\/100|[from] item: Leftovers
|upkeep
|turn|41


|
|move|p2a: Equilibra|Protect|p2a: Equilibra
|-singleturn|p2a: Equilibra|Protect
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Fire Lash|p2a: Equilibra
|-activate|p2a: Equilibra|move: Protect
|
|upkeep
|turn|42


|
|switch|p2a: Tomohawk|Tomohawk, M|68\/100 par
|-damage|p2a: Tomohawk|56\/100 par|[from] Stealth Rock
|-ability|p2a: Tomohawk|Intimidate|boost
|-unboost|p1a: Sir Axlot|atk|1
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Fire Lash|p2a: Tomohawk
|-damage|p2a: Tomohawk|41\/100 par
|-unboost|p2a: Tomohawk|def|1
|
|upkeep
|turn|43


|
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Flare Blitz|p2a: Tomohawk
|-damage|p2a: Tomohawk|13\/100 par
|-damage|p1a: Sir Axlot|209\/375|[from] Recoil
|cant|p2a: Tomohawk|par
|
|upkeep
|turn|44


|
|switch|p2a: Krilowatt|Krilowatt, M|48\/100
|move|p1a: Sir Axlot|Flare Blitz|p2a: Krilowatt
|-resisted|p2a: Krilowatt
|-damage|p2a: Krilowatt|35\/100
|-damage|p1a: Sir Axlot|190\/375|[from] Recoil
|
|upkeep
|turn|45
Circle Throw did see some use here. Tomohawk was still a good answer, switching in and out, but I did manage to phaze out a Krilowatt switch that hit Equilibra. I knew I was safe because of AV. Eventually Tomohawk comes back in, but it has to eat more Stealth Rock damage. It comes in on Arghonaut's Knock Off after some more switching around, which KOs it.


Overall I would say I think the ability to phaze is helpful. The minor coverage along with being able to phaze Fairies makes Circle Throw superior to Dragon Tail even discounting STAB, but it still isn't overwhelming. Not having a Dragon move on the set didn't feel particularly stifling, as Nuzzle is very effective at crippling Dragons on the switch. I think both Nuzzle and Circle Throw are great support moves, and that AV is a viable set made very effective by these support moves.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Alright, now to hammer out the rest of the sets.

Moveset Submission

Name: Offensive Cleric
Move 1: Fire Lash
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Wish
Move 4: Aromatherapy / Protect
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Speed
Nature: Jolly

As one of the only people that seems to be advocating for Wish I thought I would propose this spicy set. While Wish is normally only run with Protect, I believe CAP 27's strong offenses and ability to force switches can allow for Wish or Aromatherapy to be used on the switch before swapping out again to heal up the team without the need to actually run protect. Fire Lash and Dragon Claw achieve basically everything we need offensively and subsequently can still be clicked easily. While this may not look the most pro-momentum set, the switches that CAP 27 can force, and Regenerator itself, allow for Aromatherapy and Wish to be used without completely dropping momentum. In addition, Fire Lash is an incredibly clickable move that can mess with opponents that predict an Aromatherapy or Wish. 224 Speed EVs is ideally what I think most CAP 27 should be running (unless we want to outspeed eachother) because there's nothing between 110 and our speed tier at this stage. In comparison to moves such as Knock Off, Taunt and Status, the two utility moves here are designed to support team mates by giving them more survivability, and the ability to keep pushing through opposing Pokemon that CAP 27 cannot handle. Protect is of course an option over Aromatherapy should status not be a concern.
So I'm bringing this set up again since Wish has been unbanned, but I still have seen very little showing that Wish is a good idea for CAP27 concept-wise. I have seen a lot more talk about how Wish is in fact passive, even if it is effective as a set. I also think the evidence you provided in a follow up post after the ban is very much insufficient towards proving the stance of "Wish will not drain our momentum" because I do not feel like how Wish was used was completely under your control most of the time. Wish was used exactly three times through the course of those replays, but two of the three immediately went out of your control (one was using Wish directly before being KO'd, the other was using Wish before being forced into Jumbao via Dragon Tail).
Sure there may not be many actively against it in this thread, but I have heard much distaste towards it in Discord, and I think the arguments are currently leaning much more towards banning it once more, but I would generally like just a little more discussion towards its verdict. Do you think that Wish is an option that meshes will with the concept of offensive support, or is it an option that will lead to gameplay too passive to fall in line with it?

Moveset Submission

Name: Dual Status
Move 1: Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Lovely Kiss
Move 4: Will O Wisp
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
  • Fire Lash is the preferred move, as dropping defenses of opposing Pokemon allow you to force out more combatants and gives you more opportunities to get up a Substitute. Flare Blitz on Encore based sets can be optional to provide more power behind its attacks to maintain offensive presense.
  • Dragon Claw is generic Dragon STAB that allows it to hit Fire type resists like Terrakion and Krilowatt for neutral damage, and hit dragon types like Cyclohm, Hydreigon and Kommo-O for supereffective damage.
  • Lovely Kiss allows CAP 27 to put foes to sleep, decommissioning at least one member of the opposing team and allowing the user chances to take advantage and gain momentum.
  • Will O Wisp is to further cause mayhem and still enables CAP 27 to provide support once one Pokemon is put to sleep.
Dual Status is something that i am surprised has not gotten a dedicated set / post about it, so i have decided to craft one. The main difference here is that instead of going for burning and paralysis, I went for burning and sleep induction. Sleep is not a mechanic that is played around much with in the SS CAP metagame, as classic Spore users like Breloom and Amoonguss are no longer with us, and thus I think it is an interesting option to take CAP 27 in. Lovely Kiss seemed like the sleep inducing move that was the most balanced to give CAP 27, as 100% accuracy sleep is not the direction I really wanted CAP 27 to go (and Spore on a non mushroom non Grass type? **screams in flavour**). Anyways critique is welcome and I wanted to get this in here from now because I want to know, does the community think CAP 27 should get sleep inducing moves?
So two things:
- Lovely Kiss would not be allowed for the reason of A) It is actually not in Sword and Shield, and B) even if this is competitive discussion Lovely Kiss has been Jynx line exclusive since Generation 1, and while I am fine with breaking certain flavor conventions there is a line with moves this rigid imo.
- Fast sleep is very dangerous stuff, especially at a 114 Speed tier, which outspeeds all of our C&C outside of Dragapult and Scarf Hydreigon. Even with Sleep Clause in effect that is the capability of completely disabling one of Hippowdon, Terrakion, Arghonaut, Tomohawk, and Toxapex for a number of turns, not just crippling them like with burn or paralysis. I am very adamant about how unhealthy this addition will be, so Sleep Moves greater than 60% accuracy are disallowed. Hypnosis and below I do not think will be a problem.
Moveset Submission

Name: Specially Offensive Spikes
Move 1: Draco Meteor
Move 2: Fire Blast
Move 3: Spikes
Move 4: Taunt / Encore
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
  • Draco Meteor is a powerful STAB move that OHKOs most bulky dragons.
  • Fire Blast melts the Steel-types that resist Dragon moves, as well as hitting Grass-types like Jumbao and Bug-types like Aurumoth very hard.
  • Spikes helps support our team on predicted switches, by stacking hazards that will deal chip damage to the opponent's Pokemon.
  • Taunt is a support move that lets us temporarily shut down Clefable, which otherwise easily switches into this set. It also stops foes like specially-defensive Mandibuzz from using Defog to get rid of our spikes.
  • Encore is a way to force out passive mons by locking them into their utility moves. It is a particularly effective way to stop Calm Mind Clefable, a dangerous sweeper that all teams should be prepared for.
  • Regenerator is our only viable ability option.
  • Heavy Duty boots lets us ignore hazards, especially Stealth Rock which we are weak to.
  • Timid is nearly mandatory as it allows CAP 27 to outpace Pajantom, Krilowatt, and Terrakion.
  • With Taunt, this is a niche special option that attempts to make use of our middling base 92 Special Attack. It deals more consistent damage than the physical set against a few threats like Kommo-o, Dracovish, Cylcohm, and physically-defensive Seismitoad.
  • Encore creates a niche set that values CAP 27 for its ability to answer CM Clefable, as well as other bulky wincons that it naturally outspeeds, like Reuniclus and Bulk Up Corviknight.
Looks good, thanks for the clarifications on Life Orb and the replay. Approved.
Moveset Submission

Name: Scarf User
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Dragon Claw
Move 3: Knock Off/ Bulldoze / Brick Break
Move 4: Switcharoo/ Healing Wish
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 4HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly
  • Trick/Switcharoo lets it act like all forms of Rotom, outspeeding key threats while swapping items to cripple tanks
  • Scarf + Healing Wish lets it move faster then key threats while ensuring it gets off the healing wish as a sacrificial move
  • Regenerator lets it heal off potential damage after it is forced out due to being Choice
  • Knock off is the best coverage slot, Bulldoze and Brick Break for added utility and assistance on a few key matchups.
Thanks for the edit. Bulldoze is fine as it doesn't effect anything super large and helps our Zeraora and Mollux matchup. Brick Break, however, is not fine due to its matchup against Tyranitar and especially Terrakion, which is 2HKO'd with rocks. And with that information I am going to say that Fighting-type Coverage above 60 power is disallowed.
Otherwise, I think this set is good and is the "choice trick" set I'm choosing, approved.

If your set has not been mentioned, it is because I need replays to prove its effectiveness. (Deck Knight I see yours as I am writing this I'll check em out)

Anyways I think some other elements need to be touched on.

- Disable is a move I think many have made clear about in Discord, and I think the replays Reviloja provided do a good job making an argument against it. Disallowing Disable.
-
Psychic coverage, paticularly Psychic Fangs was put in the spotlight thanks to CoolMan's post dissecting it and corresponding set. Giving it to CAP27 is giving it a way to work around Tomahawk, Arghonaut, and especially Toxapex, which is a boon so good it'll absolutely get onto sets. Disallowing Psychic coverage >60 BP.
- Flying coverage falls into similar issue with it being a strong tool against Arghonaut and the S- Tomohawk, which gives it very solid reasoning to be ran on a set consistently, its also something people om discord and thread really don't want to give it, so thats strong enough reasoning to disallow Flying coverage >60 BP
- Rock coverage is generally not great for this CAP, but people seems unwanting to give it, which is strong enough reasoning for me. Disallowing Rock coverage >60 BP.
If you have an objection to this coverage being disallowed feel free to say so.

We've got quite a few sets already approved, so I think it's a solid time to start winding things down. I'm going to give a 48 hour warning for any remaining sets before this thread gets closed up and I do my final set of disallows and approvals. If we have something we haven't reached a consensus on by the end, like Wish and hazard removal, we'll send it to the polls. Get your thoughts out before then!
 
I'm just going to be going over most of the key moves up for discussion real quick. Since discussion is winding down and I personally don't want to sit through a poll, I thought this would be something useful in reaching ICC.

Wish
While I do feel we have enough offensive pressure to work and use utility such as Spikes and Will-o-Wisp without much issue, I honestly do not buy the idea that we have enough offensive pressure to not run Protect alongside Wish or to make Wish not a drag on our momentum in practice. Even taking the momentum argument out of the equation, I either think Wish would be a pointless addition because Clefable would outclass us as a Wish user, or that they'd compliment each other to where you have two Wish passers on one team and becoming something that is rather unhealthy for the metagame. I just haven't seen any evidence that shows how it particularly is a good idea for us to get Wish, even if it is pro-concept. I feel Wish should be banned once more.

Hazard Removal
Starting off with Rapid Spin, I feel that this would simply be too much for us to give CAP27 alongside Spikes. There would basically be no reason to run any moveset other than STABs + Spikes + Rapid Spin. Also, the speed boost does run the risk of making us only act for ourselves and trying to sweep or something akin to it, which is not what we are setting out to do. As such, I feel Rapid Spin should be banned. On the contrary, Defog is a move I am willing to support. The main difference between the two options is that you never under any circumstance would run the moves together on a single set since Defog removes your own Spikes and is thus counter-intuitive. Defog would likely be an option slashed with Spikes on almost any set, and hazard removal is still very pro-concept. A set of STABs + Defog + Will-o-Wisp is also still offensive support and is not selfish in its use of hazard removal, considering Defog is unable to do damage, let alone make us a sweeper. I am however still unsure as to how being a hazard remover would be in terms of balance or how much we need it to be viable. Defog should at least get more discussion and be given a chance. I think if we get hazard removal, Defog is what we should give, but Defog is not a hill I am willing to die on.

Nuzzle
With Thunder Wave approved, Nuzzle is something that should be taken out of consideration. The main reason is that it objectively is better than Thunder Wave. Not only does it do chip, but it being an attack that does chip damage and can't miss, as well as bypassing Taunt from something like Kerfluffle, I feel that while not exactly broken or anti-concept that Nuzzle should be banned. I just want to err on the side of caution with paralysis. Considering how Nuzzle would always be run over Thunder Wave every time, with the only drawback being using it against something like Ferrothorn, but you should be using Will-o-Wisp against Ferrothorn anyway.

Screens
While screens may be a bit unneeded with Grimmsnarl around, it may potentially hold a niche against Grimmsnarl considering CAP27 has a much easier time keeping up the momentum after setting screens due to its high speed and has a better chance setting screens repeatedly due to Regenerator. Also, screens are seen exclusively on HO, and thus will not be clogging move slots. The screens set should be approved.
 
Moveset Submission

Name: Utility + Spikes
Move 1: Mystical Fire
Move 2: Knock Off
Move 3: Spikes
Move 4: Taunt
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
  • Mystical Fire 2HKOs many targets that it is super-effective against, such as Jumbao and Ferrothorn, while threatening the ability of special attackers to hit 27 back for good damage. The list of relevant mons meaningfully affected by this stat drop is rather low, and mostly limited to Clefable, Tomohawk, Gengar, and Reuniclus. This move is honestly an inferior option to more powerful Fire-type STAB. For example, it fails to 2HKO Corviknight without a boosting item, even when fully invested. (252 SpA Turtonator Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 156-186 (39 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery)
  • Knock Off is a spammable utility attack to remove the items of passive counters such as Clefable, Toxapex, and Tomohawk.
  • Spikes is an excellent hazard that supports the team by chipping away at the health of the opposing team.
  • Taunt can prevent Clefable from using this set as Wishport fodder, and it also prevents foes like Mandibuzz and Corviknight from healing off the damage we deal to them or Defogging away our Spikes.
  • Regenerator is the only viable ability option.
  • Heavy Duty Boots will allow us to switch freely into enemy hazards, all of which we are susceptible to, increasing our longevity.
  • Maximum investment in HP enables us to more easily shrug off hits like Clefable's Moonblast and Zeraora's Close Combat, giving us more opportunities to Knock Off enemy items and set up more layers of Spikes. Maximum investment in Speed allows us to have a fast Taunt, as well as Knock Off foes like Krilowatt that rely on their boosting items to deal damage. A Timid nature is preferred to preserve damage on our STAB move, since Knock Off is mostly going to be used for utility.
  • This set attempts to make use of a tiny niche provided by Mystical Fire and its secondary effect.
After playing 3 games with this set, I at no point was able to benefit from the guaranteed Special Attack Drop of Mystical Fire. Here is the game in which CAP 27 was able to come in the most often, although on most of the turns it was in, I benefited most from clicking a move other than Mystical Fire.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-278

Edit: I don't think this set needs to be approved, or that Mystical Fire needs to be required. I just wanted to demonstrate that Mystical Fire, despite being a pro-concept move, doesn't actually add much power to CAP 27. I think it should be available for movepools and does not deserve a ban.

I also wanted to give my thoughts on a few other moves under consideration. I think Reflect and Light Screen are fine, the niche they provide does not overlap much with our other utility moves, which means at least they aren't redundant. I doubt we will be able to compete with Grimmsnarl as a dual screens setter, but the option will provide us increased versatility as an offensive support for Hyper Offense teams.

I think Wish is anti-concept, a conclusion that is pretty apparent based on its mechanics. I think the onus has been on its supporters to demonstrate that Wish does not result in a passive playstyle, and I have seen no convincing evidence of that in this thread.

I think hazard removal is ultimately unnecessary while crowding out other, more interesting support options. I think Rapid Spin and Defog should be banned again. I did try to play some games with Defog and I was underwhelmed, but I still believe it could end up being a slot tax that prevents us from running more offensive support moves such as Healing Wish or Will-O-Wisp.
 
Last edited:

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Moderator
So, I've done a few games testing out Stomping Tantrum with the following set:

Name: QuakeToxic
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Stomping Tantrum
Move 3: Toxic
Move 4: Spikes
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

Replays seem to be broken. But highlights from test games include Toxicing Argh and still losing to it, and using Stomping tantrum to secure a few KOs.

Overall Toxic really just helps you pressure Argh a tiny bit, but no more pressure than you'd get by just spiking up vs it. Stomping Tantrum really doesn't come into play that much besides offering a very safe move to click, letting you pressure Pex a bit more (30.7% max), and letting you function as a very reliable Mollux Answer (86.2-101.5). The ability to tech specifically for mollux, having very good neutral coverage, and just generally helping round out Toxic as a move is nice as hell. You definitely feel the shortcomings of Toxic when facing Pex, as like, it means legitimately all you can do to apply pressure is click Spikes, whereas with Wisp you have a solid way to deal permanent damage to it (6% per turn). Because Toxic lets you apply a permanent condition to Argh and Tomo while still losing to them real hard (ye, I know you can theoretically cheese them, but w.e.), and Stomping Tantrum specifically targets Mollux with very few side effects. I think both are helpful specifically for an offensive support role.

Calcs:
252 Atk Carracosta Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 340-400 (86.2 - 101.5%) -- 0% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Carracosta Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 78-92 (25.6 - 30.2%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Carracosta Stomping Tantrum vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 158-186 (48.9 - 57.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO

(of note, Dclawx2 + Spike also beats Terrak)
 
A couple of last minute thoughts:

Stomping Tantrum: I don’t see any issue with this move, but I do want to highlight that its power is doubled if the previous move fails. This means that using wisp on an already burned Toxapex as it switches in or using toxic lets cap27 deal up to 60% to it. This gives it a decent pressure tool against it if it’s the only decent check on the team and forces it to play more carefully but is still ultimately underwhelming. While I don’t see this move as necessary due to wisp or dragon claw being better options most of the time it can be allowed if desired.

Defog: This is definitely support, and its not too strong. As it won’t get used with spikes it also doesn’t take up too many moveslots. But I still don’t think it should be allowed. Spikes is enough in terms of hard utility and as is, I think cap 27 with the other support options like taunt and wisp has the options to make multiple solid supportive sets. Adding defog is less interesting and offensive than these other options and at this stage I think adding it is just making this pokemon more linear and is unnecessary for cap27. It almost seems a waste to try to create this unique offensive support pokemon only for it to inevitably act as either a spiker or defogger for teams as there is little reason to pass up such universal utility.

Edit: Missing does indeed double the power of stomping tantrum: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...earch-read-post-2.3620030/page-4#post-7579612
 
Last edited:

Deck Knight

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I feel like if Brick Break is out of the running, Stomping Tantrum should be as well. Wisp +Tantrum is excellent. If you burn, you cripple things like Terrak or Tyranitar. If you miss you get to hit them with a 150 BP Ground move. If you Burn, switch out, but then they still come in, then you still hit them for a150 BP (300 considering SE) ground move. The same can be done with Thunder Wave or Toxic. This is a really unhealthy interaction. Mollux just loses period, as a Wisp or a Toxic or having already paralyzed it with Thunder Wave procs the power boost. Please apply the >60 BP Power ban on Ground as well. Bulldoze is an acceptable tech with Speed control that matters little vs most of its targets. All the physical Ground moves above that are just asking for trouble. Even Drill Run is just straight viable coverage that can really skew matchups.
 
Moveset Submission

Name: Defog
Move 1: Defog
Move 2: Fire Punch
Move 3: Power-up Punch
Move 4: Toxic / Thunder Wave
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

• Defog allows CAP27 to remove hazards while also having a decent matchup against HO by removing hazards.

• Fire Punch allows for consistent damage output for CAP27’s teammates.

• Power-up Punch allows for CAP27 to decently improve its damage output, thus furthering its ability as an offensive support Pokemon.

• Toxic allows CAP27 to cripple switch-ins, but Thunder Wave allows it to outspeed normally faster Pokemon like Scarf Jirachi.
 

quziel

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I feel like if Brick Break is out of the running, Stomping Tantrum should be as well. Wisp +Tantrum is excellent. If you burn, you cripple things like Terrak or Tyranitar. If you miss you get to hit them with a 150 BP Ground move. If you Burn, switch out, but then they still come in, then you still hit them for a150 BP (300 considering SE) ground move. The same can be done with Thunder Wave or Toxic. This is a really unhealthy interaction. Mollux just loses period, as a Wisp or a Toxic or having already paralyzed it with Thunder Wave procs the power boost. Please apply the >60 BP Power ban on Ground as well. Bulldoze is an acceptable tech with Speed control that matters little vs most of its targets. All the physical Ground moves above that are just asking for trouble. Even Drill Run is just straight viable coverage that can really skew matchups.
This is gonna be a short one, but tantrum doesn't double in power if you miss, and dclaw actually 2hkos with burn damage vs terrak. It's still like, absolutely a pressure matchup as terrak Kos through burn, but w.e. Also like, tantrum doesn't even Ohko mollux all the time, or even most of the timr, and bulldoze has amazingly anemic power from the testing I've done. Frankly, brick break and fighting coverage above 75 bp really isnt strong enough to disqual. I worry a bit about it more than stomping because it's gonna Ohko ttar, which is a Mon that should beat us harder than mollux, which is why I didn't slash brick break there. Yeah both are pressure matchups, but not all pressure matchups are equal.
 
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Name: Defog
Move 1: Defog
Move 2: Fire Punch Fire Lash / Flare Blitz
Move 3: Power-up Punch Dragon Claw
Move 4: Toxic / Thunder Wave Will-o-Wisp / Thunder Wave / Toxic
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Fire Punch is strictly inferior to Fire Lash in every way due to being 5 BP higher and lowering Defense every time, and Flare Blitz is always worth a mention due to it having high power despite recoil. Power-Up Punch is strictly an unviable move and has been since gen 7. There is no reason to run it in a serious moveset, especially with no Parental Bond around. Dragon Claw is a STAB move that deals with anything Fire can’t. Finally, Will-o-Wisp is a crucial status to spread to physical attackers and deserves a mention. Thunder Wave also is arguably more handy than Toxic, since Toxic does not cripple as much compared to the other two, simply doing a lot of damage; we aren’t the type to Toxic stall. I still support Toxic because it does have a niche against the likes of Arghonaut and Tomohawk, but it is the most niche of statuses of the three.
 
Stomping Tantrum just... feels like usable coverage. Which is exactly the thing we promised to avoid. I was supportive of Bulldoze because it's an incredibly niche way to deal with Mollux and stop Zeraora sweeps. But Stomping Tantrum is approaching a power level that is valid to use for pure damage, and I'm afraid it could result in viable all-out attacker sets. The fact of the matter is that we don't ever 2HKO Terrakion with Dragon Claw or Bulldoze, but we would with Stomping Tantrum:

252 Atk Turtonator Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 126-148 (39 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Turtonator Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 126-150 (39 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Turtonator Stomping Tantrum vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 158-186 (48.9 - 57.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO

Btw, Bulldoze does so much to Mollux that we can always knock it out even if it switches into a Dragon Claw or Flare Blitz:

252 Atk Turtonator Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Turtonator Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dry Skin Mollux: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Turtonator Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mollux: 272-320 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So we don't need the extra power of Stomping Tantrum to really do anything to Mollux, but it would help against Terrakion and Tyranitar, who are Rock-types that we want to preserve as checks. So I don't think it should be approved.
 
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Dogfish44

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I'm actually really in favour of Stomping Tantrum right now - to me, the idea of "Oh, you're blocking my support move? Here's my offensive answer" is completely where I would want the concept to be - it's offensive, and it's coming about pretty directly as a result of running a Support option.

I think people are massively overstating the likelihood of an All Out Attacker set both in here and on Discord - I mean, Tornadus used to have the feasible movepool to toss four attacks onto it with Hurricane/Knock Off/U-Turn/Focus Blast, but that wasn't what it used because it's ability to provide utility on an offensive was infinitely more preferable. We are incredibly similar to Tornadus - slightly less powerful, and more Physically but less Specially bulky - and I think the same logic applies - our statline and ability already makes us so much more inclined towards support as is.

I really don't think at this point that 108 Atk / 114 Speed is ever going to lend itself to a purely offensive role, unless we give CAP27 Shell Smash or similar, and that we should probably be fairly relaxed on having access to some coverage options.
 
Discussion has shifted towards other things, but I want to speak one last time on hazard removal. The utility that Rapid Spin and Defog bring are undeniable due to the ubiquitousness of hazards, but I feel that these are not options that 27 should have. Rapid Spin has the potential to be too strong and reliable, as we are more than capable of dealing with the most common spinblocking mons; Aegislash is destroyed by our fire stab, Gengar is far too frail to take any hit from us, and Dragapult doesn’t want to switch into us for fear of taking a dragon attack. Add that to the fact that spin’s speed boost is far from irrelevant, and we have the formula for a spinner that’s just too good at spinning in the current metagame.

I also dislike Defog, though for an entirely different reason. My main argument here is based on Defog clashing with 27’s particular offensive style. 27 actively forces switches through our powerful stab combination and defense drops from fire lash, as well as setting hazards of its own. These qualities actively promote keeping up hazards to generate additional chip damage. Defog does not play nice with this, and therefore I feel like sets with Defog don’t allow 27’s offensive potential to shine.

For these reasons, I feel that we should disallow Rapid Spin and Defog.
 
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G-Luke

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Gonna be arguing for Wish.

The main arguments against Wish are that it is an anti concept move, that Wish is simply too passive of an option for an offensive support Pokemon, and incredibly, that Wish sets will push Clefable based teams over the edge (interestingly not that Wish itself is broken on CAP 27), and I will attempt to argue against or debunk these to the best of my ability.

So the first point, in that Wish is anti concept, is blatantly incorrect. Looking at both the original concept post and the TL's closing post in concept assessment, we should be able to apply offensive pressure while providing utility, preferably without losing momentum.
Name: Offensive Team Support (the concept formerly known as "Trickster Cleric")

Description: A Pokemon that is able to fit the role of team support through more offensive and/or utility based means, whether these are through moves, abilities, typings or other factors unique to CAP27.

Justification: This is absolutely an Archetype based concept, if that weren't inherently clear by its name. This more or less comes from the class of a similar name from the fifth edition of dungeons and dragons (not necessarily being a Pokemon that uses Aromatherapy or Heal Bell), and it's meant to fill a role that we haven't explored in CAP since as far back as generation four with Fidgit. Furthermore, of all the offensively-oriented Pokemon that exist in the metagame, very few can also act as support for their team.

Questions to be answered:
  • How can a Pokemon that might be more offensively-focused or utility-focused fare as a healer/cleric/support mon in the current metagame?
  • What are aspects of specific support Pokemon that make them effective in their roles in the current meta?
  • To what extent can CAP27 use the new mechanics of utility based moves be used in a way to benefit players using them?
  • Without getting into overly cheesy strategies, how can CAP27 bring about creative ways to assist the rest of the team it finds itself on?
  • How does CAP27 bring about situations in which the opponent has to debate whether or not CAP27 will be healing or attacking, and how can they effectively beat that 50/50?
  • To what extent does CAP27 have to choose between acting more as a cleric versus acting more as an attacker? Can it do both without sacrificing anything relevant to its viability?
  • Are there any forms of playstyle that CAP27 might be able to benefit just by existing?
  • How can CAP27's offensive or utility presence open opportunities for healing its allies later in the game (if CAP27 gets healing methods) ?
  • To what extent does an offense-oriented support Pokemon need to use healing (via HP recovery or status healing) to support teams it finds itself on?
This has been an excellent week of discussion on our concept, thank you everyone for contributing - I feel like we've really made strides into understanding how we can go about actualising an Offensive Team Support CAP. Before I send you off to Wulf for the typing stage, I would like to summarise what I feel the key points have been throughout this discussion, so we can easily refer back to them in later stages.

What is a support Pokemon? - The primary function of a support Pokemon should be to provide its teammates with Utility options such as Knock Off, Hazard Removal, Status, Hazards, Recovery, Set-up opportunities, or momentum in the form of free switches. In order to ensure that CAP27 maintains its role as a support, the ability to provide a team with some form(es) of utility should be at the forefront.

Defensive Utility - the utility a Pokemon provides by virtue of its defensive prowess (be it stats, abilities, or typing) is very important. Bar a few examples and suicide leads, defenssive utility is a key factor in every support Pokemon brought up. As we have identified that CAP27 needs to be be able to come in often in order to support its teammates, the aforementioned stages will be key in ensuring we can hit this mark.

Offenses - In order to fulfil the "offensive" portion of our concept, CAP27 must not become a typical wall or be overtly passive. However, striking a balance is also important as too offensive can make it so that CAP27 does not fulfil its role as a support Pokemon. Going forward, it will be important to consider how examples such as Tornadus-T, SpDf Heatran, and TankChomp etc fulfil this. There are many more examples within this thread to look over and take notes from as well.

Why use an offensive Support? - quziel's post posses a question that I think should be considered at each stage going forward. Why would I put CAP27 on my team? Considering what it is actually going to do in the meta, and the sort of teams it will fit into will give us a greater insight into the various ways we can take this extremely versatile concept. I hope to see people considering this in discussions going forward

And with that, Concept Assessment has closed and Wulfanator72 will take it away with the Typing Stage!

Regarding the second point, that Wish is too passive of an option, thanks to CAP 27 being able to apply enough offensive pressure with its strong dual STAB + Regenerator ensuring that even when switching out after setting Wish its health will be sustained, Wish isn't the big momentum drain that people think it is.
Flare Blitz is still decently strong on CAP 27, even if you run Wish on a moveslot, you wont feel like you are losing momentum, because CAP 27's mere presence can generate momentum versus a large portion of popular builds. Here is a replay showing how, despite Clefable's early death, CAP was able to still keep the rest of the team relatively healthy while still keeping up momentum and applying offensive pressure versus Clefable and Equilibra, which is exactly what voltage's concept proceeded to achieve, a support mon that is offensive in nature.

Now the last argument is rather contentious, that CAP 27 having access to Wish will somehow push Clefable Balance over the edge. I just want to preface by saying due to the nature of CAP 27, regardless of it knowing Wish or not, CAP 27 will be an excellent partner to Clefable and will certainly strengthen the already potent Clefable Balance builds running the metagame. Now, lets just get to the meat of the matter - Wish won't make Clef anymore broken than it is, considering that CAP 27 has access to objectively superior options to help out balance teams like Status and particularly Spikes, and running means you will have to give up these tools. Clefable would much rather partner with the fantastic Choice Band and Spikes sets, as they complement each other well instead of being more or less competing for the same slot in an already tight teambuilding experience. sure, Clefable may appreciate getting a Wish of its own, but teams would much rather love CAP spreading status or setting hazards, as seen in that replay I previously provided, Clefable can maintain the health of its partners quite fine on its own.

Not sure if a set for Wish specifically has been posted, but I will in case it was not

Moveset Submission

Name: Offensive Wish Cleric
Move 1: Wish
Move 2: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Aromatherapy
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly
 

MrDollSteak

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Before the thread closes, and having had the chance to play a few more games today, I want to reiterate G-Luke's arguments in support of Wish. While my first few replays may not have shown off Wish 27 as well as I'd liked, the points that I made about the offensive aspect of 27 counter acting the passive nature of Wish is one that I believe stands, and this replay I managed to get today shows that:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-298
Believe it or not, I was running Wish and Protect, and not once did I feel like I needed to use either move, in fact I used my two offensive stabs to take out 2 key Pokemon on Roland's team. I think the concern that Wish makes the Pokemon passive is really overstated. The Pokemon CAN use Wish when it needs to, if the opportunity allows, but it more often than not wants to remain offensive, especially in the early game. Roland's 27 however, showed a great example of great Wish usage that allowed his Colossoil to come in.

I have two more replays here that showcase why Protect isn't the ideal 4th slot, and subsequently why Aromatherapy has been chosen as the premier 4th move, not only on my set, but also on G-Luke's (having both come to the conclusion independently).

Replay that didn't save properly.Replay that didn't save properly.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-299
As much as people have tried to argue that not running Protect isn't viable, in further games against G-Luke, where I did in fact use Wish (and not Protect), I would have in fact benefitted from Aromatherapy a lot more, by removing Toxic from itself and Seismitoad, and in the case of the second replay, Thunder Wave on Tomohawk, Toxic on itself, Burn from Terrakion and Burn on Toxapex. The reason why, contrary to popular belief, that CAP 27 doesn't want Protect at all, is because it is really quite frail, so Protecting not only saps momentum, but doesn't really allow it to wall anything. It recovers enough health from switching out, that it is almost the correct play to do so instead of protecting, allowing the Wish to support a team mate's entry.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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This has been a wild two weeks for certain, but thank you all for the fantastic discussion given through the thread. It's about time we wrap this up!

Hazard control has been a pretty hot issue since it was unbanned. It is no doubt somewhat effective and pro-concept, but the question leads into more of "do we want to give CAP27 the option". Many feel that Spikes is certainly enough for CAP27, and that adding a hazard control move would only add to the slot tax that CAP is already experiencing. On the other side, there are people who believe that hazard control is a strong addition to CAP27's generally linear lineup and would be a great boon for the concept's success and CAP's viability. It is clear that stances on this are high, but it seems quite clear that Rapid Spin is not the one people seem to want to add, so I will disallow Rapid Spin. Defog has gotten much more support as the hazard removal option, so I would like to take Defog to the poll. If it is allowed by the community, then the move will be approved going into movepool submissions.

Furthermore, there are two sets I would like to approve.

Name: Offensive Wish Cleric
Move 1: Wish
Move 2: Flare Blitz / Fire Lash
Move 3: Dragon Claw
Move 4: Aromatherapy
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

Wish has made a resurgence upon further testing, proving itself not to be nearly as passive as it once so seemed. Numerous replays have surfaced very recently of its effectiveness, but the shift towards it being a good move for the concept has been a gradual one over the course of the thread. Its counterargument, that Wish is far too passive to be successfully utilized for the concept, has in contrast not been backed by nearly enough physical evidence, particularly replays, for it to hold as much sway. I have personally undergone a change of heart on Wish, and I have seen many converting the same way as well. I feel confident this will be a good addition for CAP27, hence, why I am approving this set.

Name: QuakeToxic
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Stomping Tantrum
Move 3: Toxic
Move 4: Spikes
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly

Stomping Tantrum is a very recent entry that only appeared in the last couple days of discussion, but it came into the spotlight immediately as a very interesting option and an alternative Ground-type coverage option. It technically breaks the previous disallowed category of Ground coverage over 60 BP, but this is a specimen I am willing to exempt, as it does not mess with our C&C counters drastically enough to warrant a ban, and it has fantastic synergy with our support moves, particularly status, as an offensive attack. It fills a very similar role to Bulldoze in targeting and eliminating Mollux, just much more reliably than with Bulldoze. Furthermore, Toxic works wonders for this set as alternative status, and as pointed out by quizel can still be stalled out by a number of different counters if choosing to run it, namely Toxapex. I think this move is a very unique case in that its entire interaction is in line with the concept, and it has proved itself to be a great addition. Approved.

If your set is not approved, don’t fret. Those moves are not disallowed unless I explicitly said so, just I did not think they were justifiable to require.

Finally, there are a few more moves I would like to purge before we jump into movepools that really didn’t see discussion, but I am sure may become problematic.

Play Rough, Spirit Break, Moonblast: Fairy-type coverage is very strong with this concept, threatening a number of our checks, most notably Tomohawk, Arghonaut, and Terrakion. All physical Fairy-coverage is problematic, but only Moonblast on the special side is problematic, as Dazzling Gleam is objectively weaker than Draco Meteor in nearly every scenario, even against Hydreigon.

Final Gambit: Final Gambit falls into very similar territory as Explosion, but the problem persists in its effect. Since it does not have a set damage and is instead based on HP, CAP27 can come in, sacrifice itself, and immediately blow through one of our counters. This requires far less setup to get through our counters and is also overly redundant with Explosion.

And I think aside from the poll...that's a wrap! Here is all of our required competitive moves!:

Bulldoze
Defog (Pending)
Draco Meteor
Dragon Claw
Encore
Explosion
Fire Blast
Fire Lash
Flare Blitz
Heal Bell / Aromatherapy
Healing Wish
Knock Off
Solar Beam
Spikes
Stomping Tantrum
Taunt
Thunder Wave
Toxic
Trick / Switcheroo
Will-O-Wisp
Wish

As well as our disallowed moves:

Pivoting Moves (U-turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot, Teleport)
Grass- and Electric-type Coverage (Solar Beam excluded)
Ground-type Coverage higher than 75 BP
Poison-type Coverage higher than 60 BP
Psychic-type Coverage higher than 60 BP
Fighting-type Coverage higher than 60 BP
Flying-type Coverage higher than 60 BP
Rock-type Coverage higher than 60 BP
Play Rough, Spirit Break, Moonblast
Setup Moves (Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Nasty Plot, etc.)
50% Recovery Moves (Recover and Morning Sun)
Strength Sap
Heat Crash
Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, Sticky Web
Glare
Disable
Final Gambit


Thank you all so much for the fantastic thread!
 
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