CAP 28 Final Product (2.0 Release)

Mx

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Alright, after 85 days, we have finally arrived to the 1.0 release of CAP 28, Miasmaw. Before we go any further, this is also the point we need to decide height and weight. I settled for 57 kg / 125.7 lb, and 1.2 m / 3'11" as that's similar to other big Bug-types like Scyther and Heracross. This was a pretty unusual process, mostly because we couldn't lose any time if we really wanted to release before the Crown Tundra arrived, but I think the TLT did their best to make this run as smoothly as possible; shout outs to all of them: LucarioOfLegends, MrDollSteak, quziel, and -Voltage- , you all did an amazing job and this wouldn't have been possible without you. Here's the replay of the inaugural game, where quziel and me tried very different approaches for our new CAP. His mixed stallbreaker set was pretty dangerous, but I managed to lure it early in the game with my Draco Meteor Cyclohm. On the other hand, my Choice Band set proved to be an effective revenge killer, prevented me from getting sweeped by his Jumbao after all my checks fainted, and managed to KO it with First Impression, allowing Kerfluffle to finish off the game. Here's both teams we used, in case anyone wants to try them:

https://pokepast.es/61d02c7538d9567a
https://pokepast.es/3c162a45c9f2ffa1

Of course, this isn't the end of our journey yet, as we're going to be implementing a Post-Play Lookback after a few weeks of playtesting. Meanwhile, use this thread to discuss how you feel about Miasmaw and its place in the metagame!




Concept:
Pipotchi said:
  • Name - Roadblock
  • Description - A Pokemon that excels at slowing down, punishing or otherwise disrupting the opposing team's pivoting strategies.
  • Justification - This is a Target concept, we are looking to shut down Teleport, U-turn, Volt Switch strategies in the meta, as well as targeting the abilities and items that enable them. Right now, Teleport has come to dominate the metagame, and the advent of Heavy Duty Boots and new Regen pivots has taken U-turn/TP on certain mons to a new high. Kril is also just as frustrating as before, spamming Volt Switch among others. Furthermore, pivoting goes beyond just moves- Toxapex, Tomohawk and Equilibra are well-known pivots that act as a mid-ground between 2 pokemon, usually scouting and sponging a hit before switching to something more appropriate.
  • Questions To Be Answered
    -In what way(s) does pivoting most commonly manifest in the CAP meta?
    -What typings, abilities and items allow specific mons to become the strongest pivots, and how can we target these?
    -What do our target Pokemon gain from pivoting? Are they focused more on scouting information, sponging attacks, or dealing damage?
    -Is it possible to dissuade or even block pivoting attacks like U-turn using reactionary methods?
    -What are the difference between the direct methods and indirect methods of preventing pivoting, and which is appropriate for each target?
    -Do offensive or defensive playstyles work best for preventing different styles of pivoting?
    -Is it better in the current to create a blanket check to pivots, or a more tailored response to a few key pivoting mons/strategies?
Name: Miasmaw
Typing: Bug/Dragon
Abilities: Neutralizing Gas / Hyper Cutter / Compound Eyes
Stats: 85 HP / 135 Atk / 60 Def / 115 SpA / 85 SpD / 92 Spe
Height: 1.2 m / 3'11"
Weight: 57 kg / 125.7 lb
1 Dragon Hammer
1 Struggle Bug
1 Smokescreen
1 Dragon Breath
1 Bite
Evo Move: Dragon Hammer
12 Smog
17 Bug Bite
22 Poison Gas
29 Bug Buzz
36 Haze
43 Super Fang
52 Crunch
59 Dragon Pulse
66 Lunge
71 Giga Impact
Bug and Dragon Egg Group

Aromatherapy - Ribombee
Dragon Rush - Garchomp
Dragon Tail - Milotic
First Impression - Golisopod, Haxorus
Poison Fang - Skorupi
Recover - Orbeetle
TM07 Pin Missile
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM16 Screech
TM21 Rest
TM24 Snore
TM25 Protect
TM26 Scary Face
TM31 Attract
TM33 Rain Dance
TM34 Sunny Day
TM39 Facade
TM66 Thunder Fang
TM67 Ice Fang
TM68 Fire Fang
TM76 Round
TM81 Bulldoze
TM97 Brutal Swing
TM99 Breaking Swipe

Simple list of TMs. I didn't feel the need to overload its movepool here, because that's gonna happen later on. Things like Pin Missile are on par of the course for Bug types, all of the Elemental Fangs lean towards its biting flavor once again. Stuff like Brutal Swing seems probable thanks to its body type.
TR00 Sword Dance
TR01 Body Slam
TR08 Thunderbolt
TR09 Thunder
TR10 Earthquake
TR12 Agility
TR18 Leech Life
TR20 Substitute
TR22 Sludge Bomb
TR24 Outrage
TR26 Endure
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR28 Megahorn
TR31 Iron Tail
TR32 Crunch
TR35 Uproar
TM37 Taunt
TR39 Superpower
TR47 Dragon Claw
TR53 Close Combat
TR57 Poison Jab
TR58 Dark Pulse
TR60 X-Scissor
TR61 Bug Buzz
TR62 Dragon Pulse
TR64 Focus Blast
TR67 Earth Power
TR68 Nasty Plot
TR70 Flash Cannon
TR74 Iron Head
TM85 Work Up
TR94 High Horsepower
Draco Meteor
Dual Wingbeat
Corrosive Gas
Skitter Smack
Agility
Aromatherapy
Attract
Bite
Body Slam
Breaking Swipe
Brutal Swing
Bug Bite
Bug Buzz
Bulldoze
Close Combat
Corrosive Gas
Crunch
Dark Pulse
Draco Meteor
Dragon Breath
Dragon Claw
Dragon Hammer
Dragon Pulse
Dragon Rush
Dragon Tail
Dual Wingbeat
Earth Power
Earthquake
Endure
Facade
Fire Fang
First Impression
Flash Cannon
Focus Blast
Giga Impact
Haze
High Horsepower
Hyper Beam
Ice Fang
Iron Head
Iron Tail
Leech Life
Lunge
Megahorn
Nasty Plot
Outrage
Pin Missile
Poison Fang
Poison Gas
Poison Jab
Protect
Rain Dance
Recover
Rest
Round
Scary Face
Screech
Skitter Smack
Sleep Talk
Sludge Bomb
Smog
Smokescreen
Snore
Struggle Bug
Substitute
Sunny Day
Super Fang
Superpower
Swords Dance
Taunt
Thunder
Thunderbolt
Thunder Fang
Uproar
Work Up
X-Scissor
Acrobatics
Agility
Air Slash
Assurance
Attract
Aura Sphere
Bite
Body Slam
Breaking Swipe
Brick Break
Brutal Swing
Bug Bite
Bug Buzz
Bulk Up
Bulldoze
Calm Mind
Clear Smog
Close Combat
Corrosive Gas
Crunch
Dark Pulse
Dig
Draco Meteor
Dragon Breath
Dragon Claw
Dragon Hammer
Dragon Pulse
Dragon Rush
Dragon Tail
Drill Run
Dual Chop
Dual Wingbeat
Earth Power
Earthquake
Electroweb
Endure
Facade
False Swipe
Fell Stinger
Fire Fang
First Impression
Flash Cannon
Focus Blast
Focus Energy
Giga Drain
Giga Impact
Haze
High Horsepower
Hyper Beam
Hyper Voice
Ice Fang
Iron Defense
Iron Head
Iron Tail
Leech Life
Lunge
Megahorn
Nasty Plot
Outrage
Payback
Pin Missile
Poison Fang
Poison Gas
Protect
Rain Dance
Recover
Rest
Retaliate
Reversal
Round
Safeguard
Sandstorm
Scary Face
Screech
Shadow Ball
Shadow Claw
Skitter Smack
Sleep Talk
Smart Strike
Snore
Steel Wing
Stomping Tantrum
Substitute
Sunny Day
Super Fang
Superpower
Swift
Sword Dance
Taunt
Thief
Throat Chop
Thunder
Thunder Fang
Thunderbolt
Uproar
Venoshock
Work Up
X-Scissor
 
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I feel that the ability to run mixed sets as well as roadblock and offense sets will make it very unpredictable to play with. I feel like it needs its coverage moves to work, however, and is otherwise walled by many common Pokemon such as Togekiss.
 
I feel that the ability to run mixed sets as well as roadblock and offense sets will make it very unpredictable to play with. I feel like it needs its coverage moves to work, however, and is otherwise walled by many common Pokemon such as Togekiss.
From my games with it, I think it does its job well. Kiss was a mon identified early that Miasmaw would struggle against, and unpredictability was always going to be a big part of its game. One matchup I'm kinda unhappy with is Wishiwashi Tomohawk, which is still a very strong answer to it given Thunder's inconsistency. Other than that, I feel like Miasmaw is doing it's job quite well in blocking regen.

One matchup I need to look into more is Astro. I've run into a couple Dragon Claw sets that really rock Miasmaw, so it remains hard to block Astro's regen.
 
So an Agility boost lets Miasmaw outrun pretty much everything, even with only 58 evs (possibly less), and Fell Stinger is obnoxious. I used Agility + Fell Stinger for a couple of matches (forgot to save replays) before deciding that it's a bit of a Cawm situation, you either win or lose the game in that next turn. Even Unaware mons can't stop it bc NGas.

Anyway, now running a Banded set which is consistently ok.

To conclude, Fell Stinger might be busted. The only pokemon with Atk good enough to kill with it are Genesect (who gets a boost simply from switching in and doesn't generally stay in to boost), Buzzswole (who got banned to Ubers in Gen7 who did not get banned to Ubers in Gen7) and Mega-Beedrill (who is extremely frail and has no defensive options). Smacking Fell Stinger on Miasmaw creates a Cawm level wincon (though potentially only if combined with Agility)
 
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Recently I tried a new set for Miasmaw - a stat dropper. I used Skitter Smack and Lunge to drop attack and special attack to make room for Dragapult to set up and sweep. You could also run a set intended for Miasmaw to set up, but I prefer support.
 
Miasmaw is an interesting CAP, and I am not sure how I feel about using it. Why not just use Urshifu, the only advantage Miasmaw has over it on the broader spectrum is First Impression. Both share many common answers, but Urshifu has less. Beyond this Urshifu is not weak to SR. Tomahawk is by far Urshifu's best answer, but that is bypassed with Future Sight. My question is, does Ngas stopping abilitys (primarily Regen) give it a noteworthy niche? You could argue that Compound eyes is better than Ngas (on thunder sets) just so you hit thunders limiting your counterplay. I would like to mention that Ngas lets u hit Cawmodore hard so thats nice, I guess. This regen 'nerf' can be notable, in the way these pokemon are played. Maybe now you recover instead of just switch, but how far does this go.

To make Miasmaw work in the builder you really have to be able to abuse Slowking/Toxapex/Tangrowth/Astrolotyl being 2hkoed after an attack if their regen is blocked and you must also have pokemon that can come in on them and threaten the metagame at large. I would love to see how far Compound Eyes can go too.

I feel that the ability to run mixed sets as well as roadblock and offense sets will make it very unpredictable to play with. I feel like it needs its coverage moves to work, however, and is otherwise walled by many common Pokemon such as Togekiss.
What offensive behemoths don't require coverage moves? The only time when coverage moves are not needed is when paired with Equilibra/Slowking or when a pokemon is so broken it is banworthy. Togekiss is a nice answer, but not too reliable if Miasmaw can come in a lot.


252 Atk Choice Band Miasmaw Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 202-238 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While this does require predicting twice, it still is a fine option against Togekiss, this can also be amplified when paired with Future Sight Slowking. I Havent even mentioned Equilibra yet.

4 SpA Life Orb Miasmaw Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 205-244 (54.8 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Requires Life Orb and hitting which sucks, but it is smth.

HDB can also find ways around its counterplay via Taunt, which I think is interesting; I do not know how practical that would be however.

So an Agility boost lets Miasmaw outrun pretty much everything, even with only 58 evs (possibly less), and Fell Stinger is obnoxious. I used Agility + Fell Stinger for a couple of matches (forgot to save replays) before deciding that it's a bit of a Cawm situation, you either win or lose the game in that next turn. Even Unaware mons can't stop it bc NGas.

Anyway, now running a Banded set which is consistently ok.

To conclude, Fell Stinger might be busted. The only pokemon with Atk good enough to kill with it are Genesect (who gets a boost simply from switching in and doesn't generally stay in to boost), Buzzswole (who got banned to Ubers in Gen7 who did not get banned to Ubers in Gen7) and Mega-Beedrill (who is extremely frail and has no defensive options). Smacking Fell Stinger on Miasmaw creates a Cawm level wincon (though potentially only if combined with Agility)
This is completely unviable. You have to Run Agility and Fell Stinger. Then you have the options Iron Head, Close Combat and Dragon Hammer. The issue here is you must give up your ability to hit steels, fairys, or your strong STAB. This is not even the root of the problem however. This thing lacks all power, making switching into it super free to prevent you from getting the boost. Once you have the boost mons like Cawmadore, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Corviknight and so much more beat you if at 100% or even slightly chipped. Setting up for this thing to win is beyond unreliable and is not worth it.

Recently I tried a new set for Miasmaw - a stat dropper. I used Skitter Smack and Lunge to drop attack and special attack to make room for Dragapult to set up and sweep. You could also run a set intended for Miasmaw to set up, but I prefer support.
I dont see dragapult as a good sweeper, the lack of Clef is nice, but does not make much of a difference. Something like Memento Equilibra does this so much better as not only does it remove your opponents option to switch once its stats are lowered but also does not share many common answers to Dragapult unlike Miasma who share many weaknesses (type wise and defensive answers). I do not think Equilibra with memento is very viable, but it does this so much better. It can also doom desire into memento which helps Dragapult by threating fairys trying to come in as it sets up. Earth Power, Doom Desire, Rapid Spin, Memento.

Teams I used R1. Sub reuniclus is a heat tech that stops pivoting as easily and abuses future sight into urshifu.
https://pokepast.es/d77507c8b859ed5e
https://pokepast.es/1f4f1be2680d21df
 
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snake_rattler

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CAP Co-Leader
Miasmaw is an interesting CAP, and I am not sure how I feel about using it. Why not just use Urshifu, the only advantage Miasmaw has over it on the broader spectrum is First Impression. Both share many common answers, but Urshifu has less. Beyond this Urshifu is not weak to SR. Tomahawk is by far Urshifu's best answer, but that is bypassed with Future Sight. My question is, does Ngas stopping abilitys (primarily Regen) give it a noteworthy niche? You could argue that Compound eyes is better than Ngas (on thunder sets) just so you hit thunders limiting your counterplay. I would like to mention that Ngas lets u hit Cawmodore hard so thats nice, I guess. This regen 'nerf' can be notable, in the way these pokemon are played. Maybe now you recover instead of just switch, but how far does this go.
I'd argue it's not an either-or with Urshifu and Miasmaw - it's more that you can run Urshifu with Miasmaw. Turning off Regenerator is really, really helpful.

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 157-186 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 78-93 (25.6 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

This is really good damage onto Toxapex, but Regenerator will heal a Close Combat entirely and almost an entire Wicked Blow, and then your opponent knows what move you're locked into. The presence of Tomohawk, a hard counter, means that Urshifu rarely runs non-Choice sets. The presence of Miasmaw as an Urshifu partner, though, means that the Close Combat or Wicked Blow damage could be actually permanent, and Miasmaw has the offensive stats and tools to apply a lot of pressure on opposing teams, unlike, say, Weezing-G.

I've been running Miasmaw with Kerfluffle in a similar way you'd run Urshifu with Kerfluffle. Here's a game where the opponent's Kerluffle answer was Amoonguss. Even though Amoonguss put Miasmaw to sleep with Spore, Miasmaw was able to deny the Amoonguss Regenerator recovery by switching in on Turns 2, 7, and 12. Although my opponent weaved in a round of Regenerator recovery on Turn 19, on Turn 27, Amoonguss was in range of KO from Stealth Rock + Choice Specs-boosted Focus Blast and fainted. This opened Kerfluffle and Rotom-W to spam their STAB attacks much more easily, which would not have been possible without Miasmaw denying Amoonguss's Regenerator recovery. I hope this shows how what Miasmaw can do - it's a breaker that ought to complement other breakers, not outright take their place on teams.
 
I'd argue it's not an either-or with Urshifu and Miasmaw - it's more that you can run Urshifu with Miasmaw. Turning off Regenerator is really, really helpful.
I never said it was an either or, I was just comparing their offensive presence. This was brought up in the room and I agree with this a lot. It perfectly fits how, I think Miasmaw should be used.

To make Miasmaw work in the builder you really have to be able to abuse Slowking/Toxapex/Tangrowth/Astrolotyl being 2hkoed after an attack if their regen is blocked and you must also have pokemon that can come in on them and threaten the metagame at large.

In this case it can ohko instead of 2hko which is nice.
 
I think putting this out as a 1.0 made it's release pretty lackluster, but I'd like to say congratulations to everyone who worked on Miasmaw. It's been a weird ride trying to figure out a "roadblock" and using a Bug/Dragon typing, but the product is nevertheless good.

Time to not play CAP and just make mons.

P.S. I heard Frozen Tundra or DLC2 is released or something
 
I personally just had my first game with it using @Mx team against Reachzero. Miasmaw seems kind of nutty when given the opportunity to actually fire off a move or get a prediction correct. In our match, I saw Tapu Fini as an immediate threat that needed to be dealt with if Miasmaw wanted to do anything later in the game. Mollux was a nice matchup with Miasmaw specifically for this reason and it helped open holes for Miasmaw. All in all, I think it's pretty great despite not showing all that well in my game due to multiple threats.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8cap-1227840605-h3f3ruegddnjvk21nn2kcbtqcx49265pw
 

Mx

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Moderator
Hello everyone. A few days ago the Playtest for Miasmaw finished (Congratulations to D2TheW! Here's the finals: g1, g2), so I think it's time we implement our very first 2.0 release! The 3D Model has been uploaded for a week now, here's how it looks in case you missed it. Apart from that, we'll be implementing the Final Movepool G-Luke submitted and all the buffs made on the Post Play Lookback. Here's the list of changes that will happen:

Raise Speed by 3 points (92 Speed)
Add Hyper Cutter in the secondary ability slot
Add Aromatherapy, Poison Jab, Sludge Bomb, Smog, and Smokescreen, Struggle Bug
Remove Acrobatics, Air Slash, Assurance, Aura Sphere, Brick Break, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Clear Smog, Dig, Drill Run, Dual Chop, Electroweb, False Swipe, Fell Stinger, Focus Energy, Giga Drain, Hyper Voice, Iron Defense, Payback, Retaliate, Reversal, Safeguard, Sandstorm, Shadow Ball, Shadow Claw, Smart Strike, Steel Wing, Stomping Tantrum, Swift, Thief, Throat Chop, Venoshock.


Tagging Marty to implement this.

Thanks to everyone who participated in CAP 28 and see you soon for CAP 29!
 
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