CAP 28 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[MrDollSteak]

I'm going to restate some of the typing from my previous post to make them more in tune with a submission as opposed to just theoretical discussions about their pros and cons. Apologies if I sound repetitive.

1. Electric / Psychic

What defensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against?
As mentioned previously, our STABs give us strong super effective matchups against the Slows, Tomohawk, Corviknight, Mandibuzz, Toxapex and Amoonguss. We also hit Blissey, Chansey, Tangrowth and the Rotom Appliances neutrally. We do have a weakness to both U-Turn and Knock Off that some of these pivots carry, nevertheless, in a one on one setting we should win through sheer offensive presence.

What offensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against?
This typing is primarily advantageous against defensive pivots as it only really matches up positively against Kerfluffle. Against Krilowatt we have a more or less completely neutral matchup, but are weak to Astrolotl, Zeraora, Rillaboom, Hydreigon, Syclant, Urshifu and Dragapult due to their strong Knock Offs or other Super Effective moves.

What general defensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats?
This typing doesn't have a broad amount of defensive utility, but does provide some compression and specialisation in regards to some key attacks. With this typing we resist Electric, Flying, Fighting, Steel and Psychic, meaning that we are a valuable switch in to predicted Volt Switches, Doom Desires, Future Sights and Close Combats from a range of threats in the metagame such as Equilibra, Zeraora, the Rotom Appliances, the Slows and Urshifu, as well as being able to stay in against Tomohawk and Corviknight by resisting Hurricane, Brave Bird and Body Press respectively. That being said, as mentioned above, while we resist some very specialised attacks, many of the users of these moves will carry a Super Effective option such as Knock Off, Wicked Blow, Earth Power, Earthquake or U-Turn, meaning that we will still need to be careful when switching in.

What general offensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats
This is where I think our typing shines in particular, Electric and Psychic STABs provide incredible coverage in the current metagame, with only Equilibra, Hydreigon, Ferrothorn, Cawmodore, Excadrill, Colossoil and Magnezone able to resist both stabs. Interestingly, all of these bar Cawmodore are weak to Fighting-type attacks, which I think allows us to entertain the possibility of gaining this coverage in future stages due to our fairly exploitable defensive attributes discussed previously. Super Effectively, outside of our main targeted pivots, we are also able to hit Azumarill, Hawlucha, Terrakion, Venusaur, Arghonaut, Kommo-O, Mollux, Pelipper, Togekiss, Urshifu-R.

What general attributes does this offer (non-pivot threats, SR, unique stuff)
While this isn't a dual typing with significant utility attributes, an immunity to Paralysis is potentially helpful. This is a very neutral typing in regards to hazards, taking normal damage from everything and having some fairly poor matchups against Rockers and Spikers, but it does provide amazing pressure against common Hazard removers (apart from Equilibra) suggesting that it could pair well with hazard setters.

2. Electric / Bug

What defensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against?
Our STABs give us strong super effective matchups against the Slows, Tomohawk, Mandibuzz, Corviknight, Toxapex, and Tangrowth. We hit Blissey, Chansey, Amoonguss and Rotom Wash neutrally. Our secondary Bug typing does remove a resistance to Flying limiting our ability to stay in as long against some of the Flying types, but our Electric stab should be enough to threaten them and stay healthy.

What offensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against?
By virtue of typing alone we are able to threaten Hydreigon and Rillaboom with super effective stabs. We have a ton of completely neutral matchups or against Zeraora, Krilowatt Syclant, Urshifu and Dragapult, with the option to actually resist Fighting, Electric and Ground attacks swining the matchups in our favour. Astrolotl gives us the most trouble, resisting both stabs and threatening us in turn with Fire Lash and Flare Blitz.

What general defensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats?
This typing has some very specialised resistances that allow us to take on specific threats. We resist Electric, Fighting, Steel and Grass moves meaning that we are a valuable switch in to predicted Volt Switches, Doom Desires, Aura Spheres and Close Combats from a range of threats in the metagame such as Equilibra, Zeraora, Krilowatt, the Rotom Appliances and Urshifu, as well as being a safe check against Rillaboom's Grassy Glide or Wood Hammer. In addition, we are not super effectively threatened by any common moves that these Pokemon would carry apart from the rare Blaze Kick, or Overheat for Rotom-Heat, allowing us more opportunities to safely come in.

What general offensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats
Electric and Bug provide some good neutral coverage in the current metagame, even considering Bug's general weaknesses as an offensive typing with Astrolotl, Dragapult, Rotom-Heat, Smokomodo, Chandelure, Fidgit, Equilibra, Cawmodore, Excadrill, and Magnezone and a few more lower tiered VR Pokemon naturally resisting both stabs. Super Effectively, outside of our main targeted pivots, we are also able to hit Azumarill, Hawlucha, Arghonaut, Pelipper, Togekiss, Alakazam, Urshifu-R, Colossoil, Crawdaunt, Weavile and Mew super effectively.

What general attributes does this offer (non-pivot threats, SR, unique stuff)
An immunity to Paralysis is brought by our electric typing. Our biggest potential in terms of interesting attributes, is access to some interesting Stab moves and utility moves associated with our types such as VoltTurn, First Impression or Sticky Web, although that would naturally be polljumping to assume it will get any of those, just worth pointing out that it gives some theoretical flavour and leans in the future. Our biggest drawback is a Stealth Rock weakness, which may cause us to rely on Boots, and in turn make us Knock Off averse, which many of our defensive and offensive pivots carry in some capacity.

 

[Reviloja753]

I’m going to throw a type into the ring: Electric / Dark.

Defensive Pivots

• Super-effective STAB against the Slow twins, Tomohawk, Corviknight, Toxapex, Mandibuzz
• Neutral against the blobs, Amoonguss, Tangrowth, Rotom appliances
• Weak against U-turn but resistant to Knock Off
• Defensively weak against Equilibra but can deal neutral damage

Offensive Pivots

• Super-effective STAB against Dragapult, Jirachi
• Neutral against Astrolotl, Rillaboom, Krilowatt
• Resisted by Hydreigon
• Resists Dark-type moves from Urshifu, Hydreigon, Zeraora
• Weak to Fighting-type moves from Urshifu, Zeraora
• Obliterated by Syclant

Offensive Traits In Metagame

• Super-Effective STAB against Alakazam, Azumarill, Hawlucha, Pajantom, Aegislash, Arghonaut, Chandelure, Pelipper, Gengar among others
• Resisted by Jumbao, Kerfluffle, Kommo-o, Colossoil

Defensive Traits In Metagame

• Immune to Psychic
• Resists Electric, Flying, Ghost, Steel, Dark
• Weak to U-turn
• Loses to Jumbao, Kerfluffle and Volcarona
• Weak to Fighting moves from Pokémon like Urshifu and Zeraora

Overall Characteristics

• Immune to paralysis
• Neutral to hazards and thus not as inherently reliant on Heavy-Duty Boots
• Access to potential STAB Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Power Trip
• While weak, technically has a STAB healing move in Parabolic Charge
• Strongest moves on each side for each STAB are Wild Charge/Zing Zap and Thunder(bolt) & Darkest Lariat and Dark Pulse respectively (discounting Plasma Fists)
• Can absorb both delayed moves with ease
• Resists Knock Off
• Weak to U-turn

That’s all I have for this type! It’s among my favorites for being both a strong type offensively with access to unique moves and a type with noticeable weaknesses, particularly in being a Pokémon weak to Fighting and being weak to U-turn, which I personally feel is perfectly fine for us. The one bit of soapboxing I will be doing for submissions as a whole is to please submit typings that have a solid connection to the concept instead of ones that have flimsy ones to use stronger types, and more importantly make sure the types you are submitting have noticeable flaws to leave room for more powerful tools down the road.

 

[The Crusade]

For the moment, I want to pitch Psychic/Dragon for 28.

1) What defensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against (at least 2 from typing alone)?

This typing is especially strong against the Slow-fellas (, ). It resists both of their STABs, Galarian bro notwithstanding, and it feels fairly safe outside of rare curveballs like Ice Beam. Meanwhile, the typing's own STAB greatly threatens the other Poison-type Regenerators, namely and , whom we wish to target. For what it's worth, we also resist by extent, even if Knock Off exists. Our type matchup against is neutral, but this is improved by the general attributes following below.​

2) What offensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against (at least 1 from typing alone)?

This is a strong typing against lacking Play Rough. Resistance to Electric, Fire, and Fighting is big for contending with the twerp. While we are weak to Dragon, we also threaten

with our own Dragon STAB and sport a token resistance to the dreaded Flare Blitz. Much more concrete is our advantage against , whom we threaten with Psychic STAB.​

3) What general defensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats?

Broadly, this typing sports the following:​

• Scald (Water) resistance; Flip Turn besides
• Volt Switch (Electric) resistance
• Future Sight (Psychic) resistance
• Further resistance to common offensive types used to muscle through the ubiquitous Steel
• Neutrality to all entry hazards, even if it remains susceptible to them

4) What general offensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats

Again broadly:​

• STAB combination seldom resisted outside of Steel
• STABs neutral or SE against all notable target pivots except for
• Accessible offensive phazing move if we elect to pursue that route
• Favorable matchup against common defensive cores

5) What general attributes does this offer (non-pivot threats, SR, unique stuff)

Aside from the phazing move mentioned above, this typing is also graced with STAB on the move Psyshock, which would allow us to punch through without marrying CAP28 to physical bias. The typing's main shortcoming is an absolute lack of immunities. It also fares poorly against such offensive pivots as and , but our concept assessment is steering us away from them. Our principal targets are Teleporters and Regenerators, and those are what this typing most offends with its array of resistances and primary STAB.​

 

[Brian Geniouse]

The typing that stands out the most to me is Fighting/Electric, as it is a type combination with a lot of utility, both offensively and defensively, that is specifically relevant to the concept of being an "anti-pivot", while still having enough weaknesses and counterplay to be interesting.


Matchups vs Defensive Pivots:
The main draw of this type combination is its excellent offensive matchup vs the most common defensive pivots, such as , , , , , , , and. It also has an interesting matchup vs , , and , as each is weak to either Electric or Fighting, but can hit the type combination super-effectively with their STABs. In the case of the Slowtwins, this checks them as pivots, because they lose the ability to safely switch in and teleport out.
Unfortunately, this type struggles vs bulky Grass-types such as , , , , and , who resist one or both STABs and may hit back super-effectively with their coverage moves. That some of these are exactly the type of pace-draining pivots we conceptually want to check is perhaps the strongest argument against this type combination (though, of course, ability and movepool could go a long way to easing these matchups).


Matchups vs Offensive Pivots:
Aside from and Dark types like and , which are handily beaten, Fighting / Electric has a neutral matchup vs most offensive pivots (such as

, :Krillowatt:, and ), as it is neutral or resistant to their attacks, and can hit neutrally back with one of its STABs. is the only offensive pivot this type broadly loses to.
Some honorable mentions: resists both STABs, but can't hit back super-effectively at all, meaning the matchup could swing back to neutral if 28 has an appropriate coverage move (such as Knock Off). can hit it with Earthquake, but probably doesn't want to eat a Mach Punch / Vacuum Wave. with Play Rough is potentially dangerous, but Zeraora doesn't always run Play Rough, and it still resists both Plasma Fists and Volt Switch.


General Defensive Attributes:
Fighting / Electric resists Bug, Dark, Rock, Electric, and Steel, meaning it has key resistances specifically to moves commonly used by pivots, such as U-Turn, Knock Off, Volt Switch, and Doom Desire, as well as a resistance to Stealth Rock and a neutrality to Scald.
The efficiency of these resistances - ie how it resists only what it needs to, and not much else - is what makes this type so appealing defensively.
It's weak to Ground, Psychic, and Fairy, of which Ground is both the most immediately threatening, and the least used by pivots in general. The Psychic (and thus Future Sight) weakness is unpleasant, but acceptable, and can be played around.


General Offensive Attributes:
Fighting / Electric has an interesting property where many of the relevant threats that it can hit super-effectively, can hit it super-effectively right back. Examples include , , , , , or with Earthquake. This fits the "anti-pivot" theme, in my opinion; an endless string of "Y checks X, Z checks Y" is a large part of what makes pivoting safe in general, whereas volatile matchups such as these work to accelerate the pace of the game, which is a goal downstream of defeating slowturn cheese.


General Attributes:
Fighting has access to a plethora of utility with its STAB moves, such as Circle Throw, Drain Punch, Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, and Focus Punch. Electric moves are generally more straightforward, but Nuzzle and Electroweb could be used to help it check faster threats, and the immunity to paralysis is nice.

 

[Wulfanator]

Electric / Fairy is a type we ought to seriously consider.

What defensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against?
Electric/Fairy excels at pressuring notable defensive pivots like Tomohawk and Mandibuzz since both STABs hit for SE damage. Neither pivot really threatens Electric/Fairy with their sets. The type combo resists dark, flying, and bug which leaves Mandibuzz struggling if it isn’t running toxic to cripple. Likewise, Tomohawk’s STABs are resisted by the typing, so heat wave is the only option Tomahawk has that deals decent damage. Despite Corviknight not being as prevalent in CAP, it is yet another favorable match up since most Corviknight sets face the same issues Tomohawk faces in that fighting and flying options deal little damage.

I think it’s clear that the electric typing would let CAP28 threaten bulky waters such as the Slowtwins and Toxapex, so there isn’t much of a need to delve further into this point.

Fairy typing is meant to addresses offensive pivots more than anything, but it does threaten Cyclohm. Cyclohm is only able to retaliate with fire and ice coverage or crippling with toxic, provided it is carrying it, since Electric/Fairy resists/is immune to both STABs.

The typing has neutral options to hit the likes of Blissey and Tangrowth, but really flounders in the matchups against Amoonguss, Ferrothorn, Rotom-Heat, and Equilibra.

What offensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against?
The type combo effectively shuts down Zeraora by resisting electric, fighting, and dark. Fairy moves, while neutral, are obviously threatening to a Zeraora given it’s 88/75/80 bulk. Electric/Fairy also forces Hydreigon to rely on coverage to deal damage which makes choice locked sets sweat, especially with Hydreigon’s 4x weakness to fairy. Hex+Darts Dragapult needs CAP28 to be statused to deal massive damage with Hex, and if it is the Thunder Wave variant, it isn’t getting it.

Fairy also helps pressure the likes of Urshifu and Kerfluffle; however, Urshifu can carry poison coverage and Kerfluffle has STAB fairy as well as poison coverage to threaten back.

The Astrolotl matchup is fine. Fairy hits Astrolotl for neutral damage and Astrolotl hits back with neutral fire-type damage. Krilowatt and Syclant take neutral damage from both STABs, but they can retaliate with neutral STABs of their own or hit SE with ground coverage. The typing struggles most with Rotom-Heat.

What general defensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats?
Electric/Fairy has 2 weaknesses compared to the 5 resistances and 1 immunity it brings to the table. As I’ve mentioned a few times already, key resists to fighting, flying, and electric with the added benefit of a dark resist, bug resist, and dragon immunity really makes this a desirable type to stop big name pivots in the current meta.

What general offensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats?
Electric/Fairy is a very spammable offensive combo that few mons can withstand: Volt Absorb Cawmodore, Equilibra, Fidgit, Pyroak, Smokomodo, Amoonguss, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Rotom-Heat, Venusaur, and Toxtricity. This makes it really good for punishing pivots and/or their designated target. The offensive power of this type combination lets us disrupt pivot cores like Slowking+Urshifu as we can punish both the pivot and the target.

What general attributes does this offer?
As with all electric-types, immunity to paralysis is a nice perk. Access to strong reliable STABs for both physical and special approaches is a major selling point too. Since there are few mons that can reliably withstand those STABs, we are free to fire off powerful attacks with minimal worry. Electric-type gives us access to some solid utility options, namely moves that cause paralysis.

Anything I miss or gloss over? Good or bad, share your thoughts.

 

[Amamama]

There are two typings I want to highlight with this post.

Electric/Ghost

As I mentioned in my previous post, I think it will be beneficial, if we can threaten the Slowtwins with both our Stabs, so finding the right switch in for them becomes harder and scouting for coverage impossible..
Since all three other Electric combos, that achieve this, have already gotten support, this is the last one, that does so as well.

As mentioned, we threaten the Slows with both our STABs, making it harder to select the right Switch in for them.
At the same time we can threaten many other defensive pivots, like and with our Electric STAB, while having neutral STAB coverage against other common Regenerator users like and Astrolotl.

With the exception of and all common offensive pivots, will take neutral damage of at least on of our STABs, with being hit super effectivly.
That said, most offensive pivots are able to deal Super effective blows against us, either through STAB like and or Coverage like Astrolotl and .

The main reason I brought up this typing, aside from SE STAB against the Twins, is the immunity, that ghost offers.
This immunity can enable us to exploit mons that lack options to bypass it.
With regards to defensive mons, this applies mostly to and. Their only offensive move is Seismic toss, which ghost type invalidates completely. While this type might struggle to pressure them offensively, Given further tools in later Stages, it could prevent the Blobs from executing their game plan at all, reducing their presence to complete passivity, giving us options to set up even further, while making use of the very good offensive coverage that Electric/Ghost offers.

Another defensive trait, that ties in well with the concept, is its resistance to both Volt Switch and Uturn, which would make it less desirable for Opponents to use these moves on us.
One downside This typing has defensively, is its weakness to dark and thus to Knock Off, which is one of the most commonly used moves on pivot Spam.

The immunity ghost offers is also interesting in regards to Choice Item Users, especially those that usually carry fighting coverage, of which the most prominent right now is Urshifu. At the very least this could allow us to Scout for moves and send in better answers or even afford us further possibilities to Set up on weak resisted or ineffective moves.

Overall Electric/Ghost is a good defensive Typing with only three weaknesses to Ground, Dark and Ghost, five resistances to Electric, Bug, Steel, Poison and Flying and two immunitities to Fighting and Normal, while at the Same time being decent offensively.
Inherently the Electric type affords us with an immunity to paralysis, which can be very interesting for a mon that wants to set up, while Ghost offers a Priority STAB Option in Shadow Sneak and gives acces to STAB hex which could be an interesting option for a Pokémon that abuses Status inflicted Opponents.

Ice/Ghost
Ice has been a typing that hasn’t been brought up so far.
Ice is inherently a weird typing to give out so early, because of its awkward defensive presence and our desire to account for as many things as possible in early stages.

In combination with Ghost though, the Ice type addresses a great ammount of defensive pivots offensively. Bulky Pokémon like and are heavily threatened by ice STAB, while the Slowtwins are covered by ghost type STAB. The only major fat pivots, that will likely shrugg off only neutral hits from this combo are and .

Offensive Pivots that will want to stay away from a hit by ice/ghost are and .
Also no common offensive pivot Resists both STABs and given their natural frailty Will thus hate a neutral blow from these Attacks.
We Still are weak to STABs from And and Coverage mostly in the form of Knock Off.

Defensively this type offers a similar niche to electric ghost, as it helps to set up against monsters that lack the tools to damage it from the go.
Compared to the above Electric/Ghost, This type looses its resistance to Volt Switch though and is severely punished by entry hazards, as it is also susceptible to Knock Off.

On the other hand This Type combination gives us Acces to STAB Freeze Dry, which while comparatively weak in BP, is the best single move coverage outside of Thousand Arrows. This could help us free up moveslots in later stages.

This Type combination isgreat offensively hitting Psychic, Ground, Flying, Ghost, Dragon and Grass types super effectively.
At the same time it is one of the better defensive Ice types only being weak to Rock, Dark, Fire, Ghost and Steel, while being immune to Normal and Fighting
Overall this is a slightly more offensive approach to our set task, that has noticeable defensive drawbacks.

 

[sneakyjeans]

I want to highlight Grass/Ice.

What defensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against?
Grass/Ice shines against defensive pivots. With strong STAB in Grass against the Slowtwins, and neutral on Toxapex, we can account for those options. Ice is the real powerhouse offensive option, hitting defensive Pokemon like Tomohawk, Mandibuzz, Amoonguss, and Tangrowth. The U-Turn and Fighting weakness is a slight concern against threats like Tomohawk, but strong offensive pressure with this typing should compensate.

What offensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against?
Ice gives the typing an advantage against Rillaboom, and Dragapult. Krillowatt is also threatened by Grass. The Volt Absorb resist does help against speedier threats like Krillowatt and Zeraora.

What general defensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats?
Grass/Ice is not a shining example of a perfect defensive typing, but it does have its benefits. A 4x weakness to Fire, as well as weaknesses to Bug, Flying and Rock are particularly notable, given the presence of U-Turn among a number of pivots. This typing thrives more on offensive pressure. However, it is a strong option against the Slowtwins and the bulky water/grass pivots listed above in defensive pivots, who don't typically carry any moves that could significantly threaten this type.

What general offensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats
Offensively, Grass/Ice is a strong STAB combo in the current meta. In the top 50 of the latest CAP stats, the Pokemon that resist both STABS are Syclant, Kitsunoh, Mollux, Magearna, Cinderace, Volcarona, Bisharp, Rotom-H and Aegilslash, a healthy list of counters that doesn't counteract the strengths of this type against pivots. Fire and Steel are the clear types that do well against Grass/Ice, which gives us a number of options for solid pairings with CAP 28.

What general defensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats?
With 1 4x weakness to Fire and 6 2x weaknesses to Bug, Flying, Fighting, Poison, Steel and Rock, the initial defensive attributes do seem grim. A few key resistances in there with Water, Electric and Ground. Water and Electric being key, for Slowtwins, Toxapex and Volt Switch users. This typing definitely shines on the offence, but the key resists help round out the type while giving it some clear weaknesses against non-pivot threats.

What general attributes does this offer (non-pivot threats, SR, unique stuff)
A weakness to SR is a concern for this typing, but strong HP draining options from Grass on the physical and special side can easily compensate. An immunity to powder based status is a minor benefit as well. No damage in hail is also minor, but worth noting.

 

[G-Luke]

Electric based typings are clearly very popular, and for good reason, as they allow us to strike the SlowTwins for super effective damage, which is very important for us. But, I would like to shine a cool light on some other typings that while not necessarily doing what Electric based typings can offer, put us into some other unique situations. Below I will be listing out the matchups each typing that I bring up has with the common offensive and defensive pivots in the current metagame, in addition to analyzing what that means.

Bug / Steel - A stellar defensive typing, Bug / Steel offers us flexibility in the stats department, as with little weaknesses and a myriad of resistances, it would lessen the burden on having overly inflated bulk. It comes with a key Future Sight resistance, and packs strong STAB options on both sides of the spectrum, leaving us open to Physical, Special or even mixed bias here. It barely shares weaknesses with the only majorly prominent Steel type in Equilibra, making running both easier and gives it breathing room to not worry about competing with an S rank threat. It does have a particularly nasty Fire type weakness however, and recently nerfed Astrolotl is still a stellar pick, in addition to several other strong Fire types and the abundance of Fire type coverage in general.

Positive Matchups - (matchups that we can win based on typing alone, assuming standard sets are utilized)
(only if Physical)

Neutral Matchups - (matchups that we are effectively in a stalemate with, assuming standard sets are utilized)
:krillowatt:

Negative Matchups - (matchups that we lose based on typing alone, assuming standard sets are utilized)

As you can see here, Bug Steel is quite a mixed bag. On one hand, we have a solid matchup versus some of the more common Pokémon that are used to pivot around, while having a decent natural match against almost all of the offensive pivots, which we can tailor to beat and lose to depending on our desired C&C list. On the other hand, we have quite a few top Pokémon that give us a lot of trouble, with Toxapex and Astrolotl being able to wall and KO us respectively, in addition to our two S rank "pivots" in Tomohawk and Equilibra having a good means of naturally beating us. Our typing is also naturally not great offensively, and if we wish to lean into that department it might require us to lean into other aspects to achieve it.

Psychic / Poison - An interesting typing, that has unique pros and cons that can target specific pivots in the metagame, such as Toxapex or Tomohawk. It does have the unfortunate side affect of being weak to several important types like Dark, Ground and Ghost

Positive Matchups - (matchups that we can win based on typing alone, assuming standard sets are utilized)


Neutral Matchups - (matchups that we are effectively in a stalemate with, assuming standard sets are utilized)
:

:krillowatt:

Negative Matchups - (matchups that we lose based on typing alone, assuming standard sets are utilized)


We can hit two top threats like Tomohawk and Toxapex, while still leaving room for being able to have great neutral matchups versus several big threats, allowing us to tailor fit what we need to beat based on coverage options. Being weak to Knock Off, and by extension being weak to the Slowbros most popular partner however, may be seen as unsatisfactory, and would possibly require either us being naturally faster than Urshifu and or naturally potent SE coverage to counter balance this. Being unable to significantly damage the big S rank threat in Equilibra is also a big drawback, and while this is in fact a notable flaw, I personally do not think losing to Libra is a death sentence for the concept.

Dark / Fairy - This typing is primarily geared towards its offensive capabilities, while also sporting key resists and 2 immunities, which would allow CAP28 to have plenty of possible switch in opportunities against tor tier threats such as Hydreigon, Dragapult and Mandibuzz.

Positive Matchups - (matchups that we can win based on typing alone, assuming standard sets are utilized)


Neutral Matchups - (matchups that we are effectively in a stalemate with, assuming standard sets are utilized)

:krillowatt:

Negative Matchups - (matchups that we lose based on typing alone, assuming standard sets are utilized)


Fairy is a potent typing, and I think for the execution of our concept, Dark is one of the best typings to pair it with - allowing CAP28 to simultaneously threaten both aspects of the common bulky pivot + offensive breaker that seem to be the core that we are primarily targeting. Hiting Tomohawk, Slowtwins, Mandibuzz and Dragon types in one slot is pretty great and allows for nice role compression on teams. This typing also has access to STAB priority, being able to punish pivoting out into a fast pivoter / breaker by being able to revenge kill them. Most importantly this typing has STAB on a potent utility based tool that would greatly help this Pokémon and its team in the long term versus several potent threats that it may not necessarily hits super effectively (or they may even resist it). Not winning the Toxapex matchup on typing alone may seem disheartening, but we have many a ways to go in which we can still properly put in place tools that would allow us to deal with it. Also echoing the same sentiments surrounding Equilibra that I mentioned under Poison / Psychic, but it affects us to an even lesser degree.

 

[quziel]

Yo, just gonna give a FYI; I'm gonna be having a soft (meaning you can sub after) deadline of Sunday morning for typing subs with the intention of us, as a community, doing analysis on some of the submitted typings to help explore how they relate to the concept from Sunday to Monday, and will aim to have a slate written up sometime between Sunday night and Monday morning for further discussion. I'll go over some of the submitted typings later today.

Edit: Clefable is currently banned, its not worth mentioning.

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

• What defensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against (at least 2 from typing alone)
• What offensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against (at least 1 from typing alone)
• What general defensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats
• What general offensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats
• What general attributes does this offer (non-pivot threats, SR, unique stuff)

One final thing, lets go for typings that are uniquely suited to this concept as opposed to just generally amazing, as that'll give us more power later.

Since electric/flying was taken by Dex, Im pitching electric/Fairy instead (though Grass/Steel, electric/fighting, Fairy/Poison, and Dark/Poison are ideas I think are worth exploring).

Main draw about this type combo is the resist to both volt switch and U-turn, while threatening Slows Super Effective (as they are the main threat this concept is trying to combat).

WIP

1) Def pivots that are key to me are , , , , (I don't care if its banned, its still worth mentioning), , , and .

With the exception of Bliss/Chansey and Clef, Electric/fairy hits them Super Effective with at least one STAB. But as I mentioned in a previous post, I don't think Super Effective Stabs are the key to handling the Pink Blobs and being neutral against Clef is something I can take.

2) Offensive pivots that this type has solid matchup against are , , :Krillowat: , , , , and . Resist Plama Fist, Close Combat, Wicked Blow, Knock Off, Focus Blast, U-turn, and immune to dragon moves. While offensively it can struggle against rotom and Krill this can be dealt with proper coverage, ability, bulk, or any combination.

3)

4)

5) Main draw is ability to come in on para, and not weak to any hazard. Hopefully this gives rise to more item viability.

 

[dex]

Heyo, I'm back with another type suggestion. I want to note that Electric/Flying is my first choice for it, but I thought I'd throw another hat into the ring that should be a little familiar to you.

Grass/Fighting (also known as Episode 6: Return of the Loom)

• What defensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against (at least 2 from typing alone)

Grass/Fighting is a very targeted choice towards stopping the Teleport abusers of the tier without fully destroying what VoltTurn offense is. I do believe that pivot teams aren't unhealthy for the game, but Teleport spam is definitely an annoying feature of them. Grass/Fighting has favorable matchups into , , ,:Krillowatt:, and while drawing even with and (due to assumed utility) and only losing to , , and . Grass/Fighting does one thing particularly well, and that's beat up on Teleport users, pressuring them so that they can't give the momentum they usually do.

• What offensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against (at least 1 from typing alone)

Offensive pivots have a better time against Grass/Fighting than defensive pivots do, but that doesn't mean the typing is without its perks. , , , and all find themselves in losing situations to the typing while it loses to

, , , and . Similar to its position against defensive pivots, Grass/Fighting finds itself in a favorable position against the most common offensive pivots while losing to some of the more niche ones, which I believe to be healthy for the concept.

• What general defensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats

Versus the premiere offensive threats of the tier, Grass/Fighting is surprisingly good. It beats , , , , and while only really losing to , , , and . It boasts some very useful resistances, being Water, Electric, Rock, Ground, and Dark, but it still has its fair share of weaknesses in Fire, Flying, Ice, Psychic, Poison, and Fairy. I'd consider it a pretty balanced typing across the tier.

• What general offensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats

Offensively is where this type really shines. Beating both and is not a common quality in any mon. It has a few defensive counters, namely if CAP28 does end up being physical and , but it has a favorable or neutral matchup into most walls, which is kinda crazy if I'm being honest. The type has super effective STAB moves into Water, Normal, Rock, Ground, Dark, Ice, and Steel while only being fully resisted by Bug and Flying.

• What general attributes does this offer (non-pivot threats, SR, unique stuff)

Here's where Grass/Fighting gets interesting. First off, gotta mention the Stealth Rock resistance, opening up its item slot. This typing really lends itself quite well to Substitute, either using Leech Seed or Focus Punch for some fun punishes on Teleport users trying to switch out to avoid the offensive pressure it can bring to them. Additionally, Spore could be an option here as well, which is really quite a hard punish for the hard switches CAP28 is sure to force. Essentially, good ol' strats. Also, STAB Circle Throw is a thing.

 

[Rabia]

Submitting Grass / Poison:

Based on typing, CAP 28 would have an advantageous matchup against Zeraora, Toxapex, Tangrowth, and Kerfluffle. Zeraora's only real way to hit CAP 28 would be Blaze Kick, which is a bit dire as a result of the power decrease; Toxapex wouldn't be able to potentially poison CAP 28 with Toxic, although Scald burns and Knock Off could prove somewhat troublesome; Tangrowth is only really able to use Knock Off to make progress against CAP 28 if it has this typing; and Kerfluffle is simply walled by this typing, being threatened by potential STAB Poison-type attacks and forced to pivot out with Parting Shot.

Grass / Poison is very convenient as a defensive typing; it offers useful resistances to Fighting, Electric, Fairy, and Water. Additionally, it's not weak to Dark or Bug (think U-turn here), Offensively, this typing gives STAB to attacks that super effectively hit Water- and Grass-types and neutrally hit Flying-types such as Tomohawk and Mandibuzz. In general, this typing offers a Toxic immunity and general switch-in to Knock Off, making it harder for options like Zeraora, Rillaboom, and Toxapex to make as much headway against it as they'd like to.

 

[spoo]

I hope I don't distract from discussion by not actually submitting anything here but this post will mostly just be me giving some thoughts on current submissions to try and add to what's been said already and encourage further conversation on what might be some under-valued typings right now.

First of all, let me bring up a serious flaw in 2spoopy4u's chart: he significantly over-prioritizes Zeraora, particularly early in the formula. Not only so, he accounts only for the coverage Zeraora currently runs most commonly; he favors types weak to Fire over types weak to Fighting, when Zeraora could switch from Close Combat to Blaze Kick with only marginal loss of coverage, especially in a metagame where Sun is not particularly difficult to have up. In fact, a typing weak to Fire is also at more risk of being Fire Blasted by Slowking, so I can't envision a scenario in which avoiding Fighting weakness matters more than avoiding Fire weakness.

Also just going to respond to this (because I partially agree to it and I think it's an important point) I understand that many people likely had different priorities than me when I made the chart because it was only two days into the type discussion and because of the large number of very different pivots in this metagame that we have to pick favorable matchups against. However I agree that the combination of "not weak to electric, fighting, dark, water, psychic, and rock" might be too restrictive or Zera-focused, and as long as we aren't weak to fighting and dark simultaneously, having a weakness to one or the other will be totally passable. I chose to give Slowking + Zeraora the biggest focus as they are arguably the best defensive pivot and offensive pivot respectively right now, and I still believe we should prioritize having a mostly positive matchup against Zeraora, but not being weak to both CC and Knock isn't 100% needed. Personally, I still believe being dark weak is going to be less bad than being fighting weak due to Knock Off being a much lower base power than CC (especially considering it gets even weaker after it's already been used, so taking a Knock from Zeraora will be way more manageable if for example Toxapex used it earlier) as well as the naturally low attacking power of other pivots that use Knock such as Pex and Mandibuzz, although as I said, I think a Fighting weakness could end up being fine if we're not Dark weak on top of that.

Onto typing submissions though, I really don't have a typing I feel 100% confident in subbing or fully supporting right now but here are some of the more interesting ones that I am leaning towards and would enjoy reading further discussion and analysis on. In no particular order:

Electric / Bug is really cool for a bunch of reasons. Electric is a frontrunner for many, and understandably so - the large number of pivots it hits super-effectively while also minimizing weaknesses are both very alluring traits. Offensively, Electric is excellent for its ability to hit Slowking, Toxapex, Mandibuzz, and Tomohawk, while Bug is also appreciated for getting neutral damage on other pivots such as Amoonguss and Zeraora. Bug also allows us the opportunity to potentially run a STAB draining move in Leech Life, a promising method to exploit Blissey and have increased longevity in general. Furthermore, Bug provides a resistance to Fighting which will undoubtedly help the Zeraora matchup, as well as patching up Electric's weakness to ground. This is a type combination that absolutely will struggle versus some common pivots such as Rotom-H, Astrolotl, and potentially Equilibra, however these are acceptable losses as it's only natural we would match up poorly against certain Pokemon no matter what type we choose. Multiple of these bad matchups could even be addressed through coverage moves and abilities if we chose to do so. Defensively, the Rock weakness is a huge bummer for me. Being inevitably locked into Boots as our item (and fearing Knock more as a result) is kinda unfortunate but this CAP could honestly end up running boots anyways because it's so damn good even if you aren't weak to rocks. I think this typing has very defined strengths and weaknesses that should give us a clear path as we head into later stages, and while it may not be as "optimized" or generically good as something like Electric/Fairy, I think it could still easily give us a fantastic end product and would hopefully make the process getting there all the more interesting.

Electric / Ghost and Electric / Psychic are mostly tied for me but I think both are fantastic typings and they would go a long way for this project. Electric Ghost basically has a better matchup against Blissey, can hit Pokemon such as Equilibra for neutral damage, and even has access to an (albeit somewhat weak) priority option, while Electric Psychic offers a resistance to Future Sight and can hit pivots such as Amoonguss super-effectively. I think both of these typings offer very similar strengths and weaknesses. I would give the slight edge to Electric Ghost because of the key fighting immunity for the Zeraora and Blissey matchups, as well as not being weak to U-Turn although that's really more of a nice little bonus than something that's truly important to have. Other posts go into these typings more in-depth, but I thought I might as well say here that I think they're pretty cool too.

Ice / Ghost is a really interesting one that was only recently brought up! The weakness to Stealth Rocks + Knock Off really bothers me, as I think either one by itself is workable but things get trickier when they are compounded. Maybe it's the recency bias talking but I think that Ice Ghost is super cool in a lot of other ways though that ultimately make it a solid contender. Offensively this type is among the strongest submissions so far and has unresisted STAB among literally everything in the CAP + OU tiers except for Crawdaunt which is irrelevant to this concept anyways. One offensive drawback is that we would need to rely on either Freeze Dry or the right coverage to hit Toxapex super-effectively, and neither are guaranteed for us to have access to, so we would be taking a small risk on our Pex matchup. Defensively, this type combination gets a lot sketcher with the Knock Off + Rocks weakness as I already mentioned as well as the only resistances (Ice, Poison, Bug) providing little to no worth in our matchups against common pivots. Amamama's post goes into this typing more, but right now I think the combination is cool and would like to hear other people's thoughts on it. Maybe the reason I like Ice/Ghost is also because I am enjoying the non-electric typings in general - Electric clearly seems like a very good contender for many reasons but I think it's neat to explore this concept through less obvious type combinations that are unconventional or may even be outright weaker than many of the suggested Electric typings. Ice / Grass falls in a similar boat with Ice/Ghost, and I enjoy it for many of the same reasons, but personally I prioritize the utility in a Fighting immunity for Zera and Blissey over the benefits that Grass offers, so Ice/Ghost is definitely my favorite Ice typing although not by a huge margin.

The miscellaneous typings that include Fairy, Dragon, or Steel are all naturally very good but once again I think it would be cool to explore less generically good routes than adding an incredibly strong typing alongside something already very good such as Electric or Psychic. For some perspective, excluding CAP25, every CAP Pokemon we've made since we started developing them for the CAP metagame (Kerfluffle through present day) has been made with either Fairy, Dragon, or Steel. Is it also a coincidence that multiple of these CAPs were largely broken upon their release? Honestly I have no idea and that's an entirely different discussion but it would be cool to explore a different route (in my opinion)! That's just my own bias but it's one reason why I am liking the weirder typings of Ice/Ghost and Electric/Bug right now. I wish I could have discussed the many other interesting submissions so far but I'll save it for analysis day since this post is already long and I'm not even submitting anything. My opinions are still all very much subject to change and I look forward to seeing where this discussion goes as we approach the end.

 

[Deck Knight]

I will be submitting Psychic / Fighting:

• What defensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against (at least 2 from typing alone)

Positive Matchups:
Amoonguss, Chansey/Blissey, Equilibra, Toxapex

Neutral Matchups: Tomohawk (Psychic vs Flying SE hits), Mandibuzz, Rotom-Heat

Difficult Matchups:
Slowbro/Slowking (Resisted STAB), Corviknight (weak to Flying)


The bread and butter here is the only thing preventing a decent matchup against all defensive pivots is later coverage. Otherwise Psychic / Fighting provides a good foothold against most defensive pivots, and the Stealth Rock resistance allows it to switch in regularly to the especially passive examples.

• What offensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against (at least 1 from typing alone)

Positive Matchups:
Urshifu-S

Neutral Matchups:
Astrolotl, Kerfluffle (Psychic vs Fairy STAB), Krilowatt, Rillaboom, Syclant, Zeraora

Negative Matchups:
Dragapult

Not a strong point of the typing, it is much more targeted towards defensive pivots. Since these offensive pivots are so varied, matchups will alter based on stats/ability primarily.

• What general defensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats

Defensive Neutrality combined with offensive effectiveness is really is the key selling point of the typing. It isn't weak to any kind of pivoting move, isn't weak to any of their coverage attacks, and threatens the most passive pivots of Amoonguss, Chansey/Blissey, and Toxapex with STAB. Although Psychic/Fighting isn't a defensive powerhouse, Rock and Fighting resists are two of the most useful.

• What general offensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats

The combination of Psychic and Fighting sends most defensive Pokemon in CAP running. Chansey/Blissey, Equilibra, Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and Tomohawk (excepting Hawk has options against it). Psychic types resist both STABs, but outside of the slowtwins at issue here, it hits a significant portion of the metagame effectively. When I envision a set for this CAP I think of Dual STABS + Coverage + Utility (jamming moves or recovery). Psychic / Fighting provides a sufficient backbone to make such as set effective. Most of the threats that would prey on Psychic type attackers either offensively (Dark) or defensively (Steel) are scared off by Fighting type attacks.

• What general attributes does this offer (non-pivot threats, SR, unique stuff)

Psychic/Fighting is the ultimate "toolbox" typing. Stealth Rock resistance greatly reduces reliance on Heavy-Duty Boots that applies to other typings, and its potential STABs can competently fulfill multiple methods identified in our Concept Assessment. I believe this typing gives the maximum amount of space to explore these options, and because it is based around neutrality against more offensive targets, allows strengths to be invested elsewhere without the typing becoming a liability. It is the most versatile base for a Pokemon with a difficult mission of pinning down pivots.

 

[Jewvia]

I'm gonna try submitting Ghost/Dragon.

- What defensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against


This typing gives us a nice STAB against /, while also giving us quite a few immunities and defenses against /, , , , , and to a lesser extent .

The biggest thing we are not checking with this typing would be , who would get a Dark type STAB against us.

- What offensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against

The biggest threat that this typing helps us against is , but we also have a few defenses to protect us against , :Urshifu-R:, and :Krillowatt:. The interesting thing about this typing is that 2/3s of what it is super effective against is itself, Ghost and Dragon. Dragons such as , , and most interestingly are just as effective against us as we are against them.

Again, the biggest weakness we leave open here is the Dark type. Knock Off is always a threat even on the Pokemon whose STAB we cover, and other offensive Dark threats like :Urshifu-S: and threaten us. It is also worth mentioning that and also have a STAB against us, as well as the aforementioned Dragons.

- What general defensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats

At the simplest level, we have total immunity to the Normal and Fighting types. These immunities provide us with quite a bit of space when trying to deal with / as well as . Our resistances to Bug and Electric also allow us to minimize damage dealt by U-Turn or Volt Switch. The Water, Poison, and Grass resistances help us against quite a few of our threats listed above. We also resist Fire, which is a nice bonus.

- What general offensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats

As I said earlier, the interesting thing about this typing is that 2/3s of our STABs are ourselves. Based on typing alone, any Ghost or Dragon type threat is just as much of a threat to us as we are to them. Our Ghost half also holds effectiveness against the Psychic Type, giving us an extra typing to cover, which is essential when trying to deal with the Slowtwins. Our typing is also offensively neutral to every typing we are not super effective against, including those with STABs super effective against us. Dragon moves can still hit Normal/Dark types, and Ghost moves can still hit Fairy/Steel types.

What general attributes does this offer (non-pivot threats, SR, unique stuff):

We are neutral to Stealth Rocks, and not immune to any status effects or spikes. Neutral. We have no weaknesses here, so we don't need to rely heavily on an ability or item to help us cover that weakness. And as mentioned earlier, we have no offensive weaknesses either. There are only 3 fully evolved Pokemon in the game that we can't hurt with either stab. The PU , the UU and , none of which are major threats to us or our concept. We do get a STAB Dragon Tail (Phasing) and a STAB Shadow Sneak (Priority) that helps us match our concept while also putting out damage.

Overall, I feel that this typing fits the concept perfectly. It gives us access to General offensive pressure with Strong priority and Phazing as well as Type immunities. While we cannot cover every since threat with typing alone, a Ghost/Dragon typing gives powerful resistances against the majority of our defensive threats that we want to crush. It allows us to act as a stallbreaker through means other than simply having a STAB super effective typing.

 

[Zephyri]

(casually steals G-Luke's typing sub framework)

Ight, I wanna talk about a typing that hasn't seemed to get much recognition but feels fairly pro-concept nonetheless.. Ghost/Dark

Imo Ghost/Dark is interesting due to it's abundance of neutral matchups, along with positive matchups where it really counts. Along with that, STAB Knock Off (punishes the heavy-duty boots mons), a Future Sight immunity, and basically an immunity to the pink blobs (Chansey and Blissey) makes me love this typing. Priority in Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch is also quite nice.

Positive Matchups - (matchups that we can win based on typing alone, assuming standard sets are utilized)


Neutral Matchups - (matchups that we are effectively in a stalemate with, assuming standard sets are utilized)
:krillowatt:

Negative Matchups - (matchups that we lose based on typing alone, assuming standard sets are utilized)


General Offensive Attributes: STAB that hits everything but dark-types unresisted, tons of neutral MUs, STAB Knock Off, spinblocking, and 2 viable forms of priority

General Defensive Attributes: Only one weakness in Fairy, 3 immunities (2 of those being super-nice, those being Psychic and Fighting), can't touch it, we can switch into a CC from or

Overview: Imo, Ghost-Dark is a more basic typing that doesn't possess too many advantages or disadvantage... but I think that's what makes it interesting. It leaves a lot of design space and leeway for both offensive and defensive, physical and special oriented mons... and although it doesn't have that "personality" that a lot of other types have, I think the amount of freedom it provides for the later stages counters its weaknesses (as a part of this design process, not its weaknesses in the game itself lol)

 

[Krazyguy75]

I don’t have a full submission like everyone else, but I wanted to raise a point I feel like some of these submissions are missing: Our goal is to counter pivots, not every single pokemon in the meta.

I feel like a lot of these focus too much on just covering all possible options, aiming to get stab SE on as many pivots as possible, failing to realize that that just makes us obscenely good offensively due to the variety of coverage. Instead, I think the focus should be on the outlier pivots which don’t have any strong counterplay to, like the Slowtwins and/or Zeraora.

We not only should focus on what we want to threaten with our typing, but what we don’t. Otherwise, we may become the next problem.

 

[jas61292]

Personally, my favorite typing is probably Electric/Ghost due to the excellent offensive nature of Electric with respect to our targets, and the fact that Ghost is really the only tying that can give us a major advantage against the pink blobs without also giving us a psychic weakness. Offensively, while we don't hit many offensive pivots super effectively, only a scant can easily come in on both Electric and Ghost moves, while a huge swatch of defensive pivots, including Slobro/king, Toxapex, Tomohawk, Mandibuzz and more are nailed for super effective damage. Defensively, we lack a weakness to the main offensive options of the bulky pivots, baring Mandibuzz. Toxapex does pack Knock Off, but it is so weak that that is not much of a concern. And against offensive pivots, we resist the STAB moves of Zeraora, and take neutral at most from a number of others, including Krilowatt, Syclant, Rotom and Astrolotl. All around, I just think this is a solid type, and one that would do an excellent job doing what we want, without unnecessarily trying to cover up every possibly vulnerability.

Now with that said, I would also like to talk about one other typing that I don't believe anyone else in the thread has brought up yet. And that would be plain old Electric. There have been a ton of electric dual types talked about in the thread so far, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder if a secondary type is needed, or if it is even a good thing here. Electric is a rather unique typing in that it only has one weakness, so unless we are really relying on the resistances of a secondary type, staying single typed can often be a defensive advantage, and I think that may be the case here.

Against defensive pivots, Electric remains probably the single best type in the game. It hits super effectively against Slowbro, Slowking, Toxapex, Tomohawk, and Mandibuzz, while being resisted really only by Amonguss and some other less common grass types. While a secondary typing might increase the number of super effective and neutral hits possible, I think that Electric by itself provides more than enough advantages for our purposes.

Against offensive pivots, pure Electric typing provides a ton of potential for matching up well with whichever ones we want. While by typing alone it does not hit many super effectively, it does score neutral hits on mons such as Krilowatt, Urshifu, Kerfluffle and Syclant. Defensively speaking, as our only weakness is Ground, very few pivots are immediately threatening to us on typing alone. Ground STAB is rare among pivots, and even ground coverage is only common on a limited few. This typing also makes Zeraora an interesting match-up as we take neutral or less from anything it can reasonably do. This means that we can easily use later stages to achieve a desired match-up against it, regardless of what that desired match-up is.

In general, pure Electric typing is just a solid option both offensively and defensively. It gets a lot of neutral and super effective hits on common metagame Pokemon, while having only a single weakness, which is often easy to see coming. It provides a resistance to Volt Switch to help deal with the common pivoting move, as well as resistances to Steel and Flying, the later of which is a powerful offensive typing. Perhaps the biggest downside of pure electric is the poor matchup against Equilibra, as without a secondary STAB to hit it with, we might struggle to break through. That being said, this is not a crucial match-up for our concept and one I believe we can afford to lose.

Ultimately, I think I prefer Electric/Ghost overall, due to the enhanced match-up with Blissey and co, but outside that particular instance, I believe Electric by itself can provide everything we want just as well, if not better.

 

[Darek]

I'll be subbing Bug/Dragon.

Matchups Against Defensive Pivots:

We have STAB against , , and . We also resist and 's water and grass STABS while hitting them neutrally.

The main mons we struggle with are and , although may not be able to reliably switch in on our Dragon STAB if we have the proper stats.

Matchups Against Offensive Pivots:

We can hit with supereffecitve STAB, but more importantly we hold key resistances to electric, fighting, water, and more that let us do well against , :krillowatt:, and . Our Dragon STAB prevents many other mons from switching in reliably, and depending on our stats we could potentially do well against the other dragons , , and .

On the other hand, this typing will struggle against , and .

General defensive attributes:

This typing resists many common attacking types, being ground, fighting, water, grass, and electric. This allows us to resist key moves discussed earlier such as Scald and Volt Switch while not being weak to U-turn or Knock Off. Unfortunately, this typing resists neither Future Sight nor Doom Desire, and lacks any immunities to status. This typing also leaves us weak to mons such as , and in addition to the ones mentioned before.

General offensive attributes:

Dragon STAB has only a few resists, which exerts a strong offensive pressure against the opponent. None of the teleporters or regenerator pivots resist Dragon. However, this typing will struggle to break and .

Other general attributes:

Although weak to rocks, I think that Bug/Dragon really shines through its key resistances and Dragon STAB. In addition, this typing gives STAB on many pro-concept moves such as First Impression, Leech Life, and Dragon Tail. These factors make this typing incredibly versatile and leave many avenues open to fulfill CAP28's concept in future stages.

 

[Pipotchi]

I got some free time do do a really quick writeup for Water/Grass.

positives: truly unique and dominating matchups
What immediately stands out about this typing is the following: 4x Scald resist, Steel and Ground resist. What that translates to is the most specialized anti-delayed move user typing that we have available to us. We switch in on and threaten and massively with this typing, and it also has access to multiple priorities both physical and special to "un-vortex" ourselves even against certain U-turners. It shouldnt be understated how rare it is to resist Libras STABs without an immunity ability and this is the only typing outside of Steel/Flying to do so without a SR weakness. Its also very hard to tech for, as Bug, Flying and Poison are not coverage moves used by any of our targets outside of using Poison STAB. One more benefit of the typing is both STABs can be boosted by field effects, increasing its offensive presence, as well as HP draining moves.

negatives: lack of resists and coverage reliance
However, outside of these 3 resists it has NO others to work with, and notably has a neutral matchup at best with pivoting attacks. This means its switchin opportunities outside of those key Pokemon will mainly just be on passive defensive mons. U-turn hits us super-effectively which is a challenge. However I decided to still suggest this typing because it seemed we were going to lean into prioritising Teleporters and scouting pivots rather than U-turners, and this can perform quite well here. Another issue that exists is that Water/Grass share 2 resists in Dragon and Grass, making it easier than other suggested typings to check. Whether our ability to be switched in on by , and is positive or not is up for discussion, but it definitely will open the door for and to be annoying which could cause us issues. As far as teambuilding goes, it doesnt really excel as your team's Water type because it doesnt have a fire resist, but as a Grass type it has a few more benefits. Not sure with regards to splashability or if this is a major issue for an offensively geared pokemon.

Positive Matchups -


Negative Matchups -


basically everything else falls under a majorly neutral matchup that we have the freedom to push one way or the other.

 

[flying moose]

Dark/Fighting

What defensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against (at least 2 from typing alone)

• This typing is unique for having super-effective STAB against BOTH of our two main pairs of targets while not being weak to Future Sight. None of the coverage moves these guys run can do more than neutral damage to us, making Dark/Fighting an excellent typing for tackling our priority Teleport users. Our Fighting STAB also allows us to threaten
• Additionally, we have neutral matchups against the majority of the remaining bulky pivots, including and or lacking flying moves. If we choose to go the physical route, we can make all of their lives harder with STAB Knock Off while double resisting their own.
• The main bulky pivot we can't do anything against is , who can take us out with either of its STABs in return.

What offensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against (at least 1 from typing alone)

• Our STABs greatly threaten and, who can't hurt us with their primary STABs and have to settle for neutral damage from Dragon attacks and coverage.
• We have neutral matchups with ,, and:Krillowatt:
• We really don't like , and we are also threatened byandwith Close Combat, although we can do heavy damage to them (especially Urshifu) if they aren't careful coming in.

What general defensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats

• Along with our matchups against our primary targets, this is where we really shine as a pivot counter, for Dark/Fighting isn't weak to any of the four main moves utilized by pivoting strategies. We are neutral to both U-turn and Volt Switch, but the real benefit is a 4x resistance to Knock Off and a resistance to Stealth Rock. This greatly frees up our ability to run whatever item we want, and allows us to care much less if we do lose our item. In addition to our resistances to Rock and Fighting, we have a useful resistance to Ghost and of course an immunity to Psychic.
• Dark/Fighting does have a nasty 4x weakness to Fairy attacks, but this shouldn't matter much for our role as a pivot counter, as most of the pivots (especially the bulky ones) don't run Fairy moves. It's other weakness to Flying and Fighting are also manageable, since Flying is only used by a few of the bulky pivots and Fighting is rarely used.

What general offensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats

• Our STABs alone offer us super-effective damage on an impressive eight typings: Steel, Dark, Ice, Rock, Normal, Ghost, and Psychic. The only type that we do not attain neutral damage on with either STAB is Fairy.
• This gives us the ability to defeat a long list of non-pivoting mons, including:

What general attributes does this offer (non-pivot threats, SR, unique stuff)

• In addition to the traits mentioned above (resistances to SR and Knock Off, STAB Knock Off of our own, Psychic immunity), this typing gives us STAB access to pro-concept moves such as Drain Punch and Circle Throw, as well as useful priority in the form of Sucker Punch. Additionally, Dark could allow us to pursue a novel, though complex anti-Teleport strategy in the form of Jaw Lock + Taunt. (though the former is currently a signature move, albeit for non-legendary pokemon)

As a side-comment, I heavily disagree that pure Electric could be more defensively advantageous than Electric+Secondary Typing. I say this based on experience from the Other Metagames world, where I led Flipped--a metagame that reversed the order of pokemon's base stats, creating a ton of physically defensive Electric pokemon. Jolteon, for instance, had 130/110/65 defensive stats, and on paper looked amazing as a Wish Passer, along with Raichu, who had slightly lower stats but a better movepool. In reality, they were terrible. One of the big problems with pure Electric as a defensive typing is that while it only has one weakness, it also has very few useful resistances--only to itself, Steel, and Flying. Thus, even with their excellent stats, these pokemon just couldn't pull their weight regularly switching into strong neutral hits. A secondary typing may give a few extra weaknesses, but at the same time it is valuable for adding resistances, specializing the mon to be more effective at countering certain things than a one-weakness jack-of-all trades.
Granted, the pokemon I mentioned did have some other flaws such as less-than-ideal attacking stats and movepool, and that metagame was very different from CAP, notably having two top-tier ground attackers. Even so, I am suspect of the defensive capacity of Electric by itself.

 

[quziel]

This is your ~45 hour warning. I'll give an exact timetable in a post tomorrow but was reminded I forgot to post this.

 

[Boat]

I'll submit something, why not? Submitting Grass / Psychic for consideration.

• What defensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against?
  - STAB super-effective moves give great matchups against the defensive Regenerator pivots. Furthermore, we resist Scald and Future Sight.
  - We don't have the typing advantage against the last defensive Regenerator pivot , but we aren't exactly badly equipped to deal with it either.
  - STAB on Psyshock provides a solid way to threaten without necessitating physical bias.
  - We struggle vs . At first glance, our 4x weakness to U-Turn seems like a huge problem. However, the defensive pivots that carry U-Turn have a typing that already counters Grass / Psychic, so it's not as relevant.
  
  
• What offensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against?
  - :krillowatt: Grass allows us to resist their STAB Volt Switch, but their coverage moves do hit us super-effectively, so these matchups will probably come down to other aspects.
  - In general, our weakness to U-Turn becomes more relevant against offensive pivots. This typing is much more suited for beating defensive pivots.
  
  
• What general defensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats?
  - Grass-type provides resistances to strong offensive types like Electric, Ground, and Water.
  
  
• What general offensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats?
  - As mentioned before, Grass + Psychic pressures a lot of the defensive Pokemon in the tier. It's ability to threaten offensive threats will be dependent on other factors.
  - Grass + Psychic is excellent coverage, only being resisted by Steel.
  
  
• What general attributes does this offer?
  - Grass + Psychic offers theoretical access to recovery in the form of Leech Seed, Synthesis or Recover.
  - Immunity to Spore
  - Not being weak to SR allows us to run an item other than Heavy-Duty Boots. Obviously this is speculation, but I think it's fair to guess this Pokemon will come in pretty frequently, since it's supposed to counter pivots. Access to Leftovers will let it nickel and dime its health back up.
  

 

[quziel]

Ok, so a few orders of business as we near the voting stage for typing:

1) I aim to close the thread at 8 PM EST Monday night.

2) I aim to have a draft of the slate up eventuallyTM for y'all to look at and comment on.

3) Lets evaluate other's typing subs:

Pick someone else's typing sub and just dive deep on it, discuss its matchup with pivots, offensive and defensive, the meta, and any general perks it has (eg toxic resist, sr resist, etc).

As a side note; I'm a bit wary of typing subs that replicate other OU or near OU viable mons; a Dark/Dragon would cover a lot of the same ground as Hydreigon as Hydreigon already punishes Pivots very effectively. Replicating it means our design space is brought down a fair bit, and I worry about eg us or the OU mon being driven out of the meta if we don't do something radically different (guzzlord vs hydreigon).

 

[flying moose]

Okay, we got lots of very cool typings, and I have no doubt that any of them could make an exciting pokemon. My starting point for narrowing them down then, is to look at our main priority for accomplishing our goal: the ability to beat Slowking and Slowbro. Yes, I know, Blissey too. But in terms of typing, the requirements for beating Blissey matter a lot less. So let's categorize the typings with regard to the specific traits they have against the Slowtwins.

I will still note any qualities that do provide an advantage against Blissey--namely Seismic Toss immunity, Fighting typing, and STAB Psyshock. I also gave shoutouts to typings that give us not just one, but two super effective STABs on Slowking. While not strictly necessary, the ability to spam between SE moves makes it much harder for the opponent to safely hard switch a Zeraora into an Electric move or an Urshifu into a Dark move, to give examples.


Immune to Future Sight
Dark/Fighting <---SE STAB on Blissey
Electric/Dark <---Two SE STABs on Slowking
Ghost/Dark <---Two SE STABs on Slowking, Immune to Seismic Toss

Resistant to Future Sight, STAB Psyshock
Electric/Psychic
Grass/Psychic <---Resistant to Scald

Resistant to Scald
Grass/Ice
Water/Grass <--Double Resist
Bug/Dragon
Ghost/Dragon <--Immune to Seismic Toss

No Resistances to Main Slowking Moves
Electric/Flying
Electric/Fairy
Electric/Ghost <---Two SE STABs on Slowking, Immune to Seismic Toss
Electric/Bug <---Two SE STABs on Slowking
Bug/Steel
Ice/Ghost <--- Immune to Seismic Toss

Weak to Future Sight
Fighting/Electric <---SE STAB on Blissey
Grass/Fighting <---Resistant to Scald
Grass/Poison <---Resistant to Scald

Not Super-Effective on Slowking
Psychic/Fighting <---SE STAB on Blissey
Psychic/Dragon <---Resistant to Scald, STAB Psyshock


Earlier on, a few people argued weakness to Future Sight is not crippling, and even manageable, as long as 28 can come in and beat or scare out the Teleporter and then get out of there. I disagree. We'd frequently be switching in as they click Future Sight, essentially requiring us to be able to OHKO them in the one turn we have before we need to flee. Worse, our need to switch out before FS hits can easily be predicted and exploited. We would find ourselves preventing a Teleport only to provide a free switch to whatever mon they would have Teleported in, making this incredibly counterproductive to the concept. As such, I believe a FS weakness should disqualify the relevant typings, regardless of whatever other cool benefits they offer.

In contrast, a Future Sight resistance or immunity allows us to stay in on Slowking without concern, allowing us to beat it in whatever way we want, be it through status moves, high damage, or a combination.

A resistance to Scald is also useful, but not quite as valuable, due to its lower power and the fact it can't be stacked with another move in a single turn. The big problem with Scald is the burns, which we already will have to deal with in the ability stage or by going special (thus my exalting of Psyshock). If we wanted we could even use the ability stage to give a Scald immunity, something we cannot do with Future Sight.

Several submitted typings don't have either of these defensive qualities against Slowking, and as such would be judged on their ability to deal with a wide range of additional threats. We would basically be required to give 28 a lot of special defense to confidently meddle with Slowking, but this is certainly something we could do, and there are certainly advantages to being multipurpose over being a specialist. But if any of the earlier typings offer this flexibility, they would probably be preferable.

Lastly, I think that any typings that don't offer SE STABs on Slowking should not be slated. Even if it offers SE STAB on Blissey. Blissey's defenses are so lopsided that we can easily design a physical mon or a strong Psyshock user that can muscle through it. Not the case with Slowbro and Slowking. Taken collectively, they can be defensive on either end of the spectrum, and can easily heal off medium damage with Regenerator. We need SE STAB to beat them, plain and simple.