CAP 28 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[Rabia]

before I go into speaking about a submitted type, I wanna address some points and why I view them as... poor? not really correct? not sure what the adjective that I want to use here is

Earlier on, a few people argued weakness to Future Sight is not crippling, and even manageable, as long as 28 can come in and beat or scare out the Teleporter and then get out of there. I disagree. We'd frequently be switching in as they click Future Sight, essentially requiring us to be able to OHKO them in the one turn we have before we need to flee. Worse, our need to switch out before FS hits can easily be predicted and exploited. We would find ourselves preventing a Teleport only to provide a free switch to whatever mon they would have Teleported in, making this incredibly counterproductive to the concept. As such, I believe a FS weakness should disqualify the relevant typings, regardless of whatever other cool benefits they offer.

This is a really questionable way of looking at the interactions between the slow brothers and a potentially Psychic-weak CAP 28. It firstly assumes every sequence starts with the usage of Future Sight and thus gives all of the favorable momentum to the opposition. It secondly discredits how impactful preventing Teleport from going off is; a huge boon to Teleport is how the slow brothers can, much of the time, successfully land an impactful Future Sight through smart positioning. It's why you see Pokemon like Hydreigon and Urshifu-S so commonly paired with them; they're Pokemon that can prevent a wide variety of potential Future Sight switch-ins from coming in. By preventing a successful Teleport, much of Future Sight's pressure is lost, and it requires much more smart/careful play to land key hits as a result. Additionally, keep in mind Future Sight does not hit the turn after it's used; contrary to your statement, this means something like say, Urshifu-S can't immediately switch in after Future Sight is used because CAP 28 isn't actually forced out as immediately as your post implies it is.

In contrast, a Future Sight resistance or immunity allows us to stay in on Slowking without concern, allowing us to beat it in whatever way we want, be it through status moves, high damage, or a combination.

I think you're vastly overrating how useful a resistance to Future Sight is, in addition to focusing in too hard on the one-on-one matchup with Slowking. Given you think this CAP must be able to hit Slowking super effectively with a STAB move, why is this interaction useful? Slowking doesn't really have any incentive to stay in to lose a one-on-one, does it? If anything, it's more likely to directly switch out and thus risk not having a great way to force Future Sight damage onto a useful target, meaning CAP 28 doesn't really need a resistance to the move.

I think your post as a whole is too focused on beating Slowking directly and ignores that CAP 28's concept is designed against pivots as a whole. By focusing in so much on one threat, I think this CAP would end up not working as well as we intend for it to.

-----

I want to throw in support for Psychic / Dragon as a typing. Despite a poor Mandibuzz matchup, this gives us something that can arbitrarily take advantage of the slow brothers in addition to threatening a wide variety of other pivots, Tomohawk, Toxapex, Zeraora, and Rotom-H to name a few. I do worry about some interactions this typing would give, namely the Knock Off weakness and potentially dreadful Mandibuzz and Dragapult matchups, but the resistances to Electric and Fighting combined with a rather wide pool of potential targets is enticing.

 

[dex]

Okay, we got lots of very cool typings, and I have no doubt that any of them could make an exciting pokemon. My starting point for narrowing them down then, is to look at our main priority for accomplishing our goal: the ability to beat Slowking and Slowbro. Yes, I know, Blissey too. But in terms of typing, the requirements for beating Blissey matter a lot less. So let's categorize the typings with regard to the specific traits they have against the Slowtwins.

I will still note any qualities that do provide an advantage against Blissey--namely Seismic Toss immunity, Fighting typing, and STAB Psyshock. I also gave shoutouts to typings that give us not just one, but two super effective STABs on Slowking. While not strictly necessary, the ability to spam between SE moves makes it much harder for the opponent to safely hard switch a Zeraora into an Electric move or an Urshifu into a Dark move, to give examples.


Immune to Future Sight
Dark/Fighting <---SE STAB on Blissey
Electric/Dark <---Two SE STABs on Slowking
Ghost/Dark <---Two SE STABs on Slowking, Immune to Seismic Toss

Resistant to Future Sight, STAB Psyshock
Electric/Psychic
Grass/Psychic <---Resistant to Scald

Resistant to Scald
Grass/Ice
Water/Grass <--Double Resist
Bug/Dragon
Ghost/Dragon <--Immune to Seismic Toss

No Resistances to Main Slowking Moves
Electric/Flying
Electric/Fairy
Electric/Ghost <---Two SE STABs on Slowking, Immune to Seismic Toss
Electric/Bug <---Two SE STABs on Slowking
Bug/Steel
Ice/Ghost <--- Immune to Seismic Toss

Weak to Future Sight
Fighting/Electric <---SE STAB on Blissey
Grass/Fighting <---Resistant to Scald
Grass/Poison <---Resistant to Scald

Not Super-Effective on Slowking
Psychic/Fighting <---SE STAB on Blissey
Psychic/Dragon <---Resistant to Scald, STAB Psyshock


Earlier on, a few people argued weakness to Future Sight is not crippling, and even manageable, as long as 28 can come in and beat or scare out the Teleporter and then get out of there. I disagree. We'd frequently be switching in as they click Future Sight, essentially requiring us to be able to OHKO them in the one turn we have before we need to flee. Worse, our need to switch out before FS hits can easily be predicted and exploited. We would find ourselves preventing a Teleport only to provide a free switch to whatever mon they would have Teleported in, making this incredibly counterproductive to the concept. As such, I believe a FS weakness should disqualify the relevant typings, regardless of whatever other cool benefits they offer.

In contrast, a Future Sight resistance or immunity allows us to stay in on Slowking without concern, allowing us to beat it in whatever way we want, be it through status moves, high damage, or a combination.

A resistance to Scald is also useful, but not quite as valuable, due to its lower power and the fact it can't be stacked with another move in a single turn. The big problem with Scald is the burns, which we already will have to deal with in the ability stage or by going special (thus my exalting of Psyshock). If we wanted we could even use the ability stage to give a Scald immunity, something we cannot do with Future Sight.

Several submitted typings don't have either of these defensive qualities against Slowking, and as such would be judged on their ability to deal with a wide range of additional threats. We would basically be required to give 28 a lot of special defense to confidently meddle with Slowking, but this is certainly something we could do, and there are certainly advantages to being multipurpose over being a specialist. But if any of the earlier typings offer this flexibility, they would probably be preferable.

Lastly, I think that any typings that don't offer SE STABs on Slowking should not be slated. Even if it offers SE STAB on Blissey. Blissey's defenses are so lopsided that we can easily design a physical mon or a strong Psyshock user that can muscle through it. Not the case with Slowbro and Slowking. Taken collectively, they can be defensive on either end of the spectrum, and can easily heal off medium damage with Regenerator. We need SE STAB to beat them, plain and simple.

Moose made a really comprehensive list here, but I also want to mention something I disagree with before I get into type analysis (gonna try to do some of the other Electric typings besides my own later today).

First, a Future Sight weakness is absolutely not the end of the world. If it really is a concern down the line, there is a lot of counterplay available to it, such as Substitute and the Protect moves. It's not the end of the world if CAP28 is weak to Future Sight.

I do agree, however, that having Super Effective STAB against Slowking is of the upmost importance. In order to be effective into Slowking, enough damage needs to be done to counter his health regen. Given Slowking's bulk, the only consistent way to do that is with high pressure STAB moves.

On a completely different note:
I think the prevalence of U-Turn is being understated. It's a very common move on pivot teams, finding itself commonly on , , , , , and just to name a few. Having a Bug weakness would be very detrimental to the concept given the ubiquity of U-Turn on pivot teams, and while I don't think it's an absolute dealbreaker, we should have a very serious conversation about what a typing can do to circumvent choiced U-Turn pressure to not allow U-Turn users to just pivot at free will.

 

[quziel]

It also seems that I may need to make some comments on some points:

Therefore, I believe the CAP MUST have Electric, Ghost, Dark, Grass, or Bug as part of its typing, so that serious damage can be done before they Teleport and gain Regenerator. Without this, we would be almost forced into other ways around Regenerator's passive healing, like Knock Off or Neutralizing Gas, which are very constraining.
It also ideally should not be weak to Future Sight, so the CAP should not have Fighting or Poison typing, unless paired with Dark for the immunity.

I believe any typing that meets these two criteria would enable a feasible CAP to be made that could decrease the viability (and thus usage) of these bulky Teleport pivots. They just may need to do so in very different ways. Once we've locked in typing and ability though, I think we'll be on a reasonably narrow track of how to complete the job.

The points made here are true to a large extent, but, and this is a big but, hitting Slowking/Blissey with a SE STAB is not the only way to hit them hard; we still have room in ability and stat stages to fix that; there's nothing stopping us from having a strong SE, non-STAB, vs them. While I definitely agree that having a SE stab vs the Slowtwins is very helpful, I don't agree that its fully mandatory.

Weakness to Bug means weakness to U-Turn, but there are only a few good U-Turn users in the current metagame. Personally, beyond the Teleporters, I would love to see us target other bulky pivots, among whom only Mandibuzz utilizes this move. And even if we don't want to go for the bulkier pivots, even with a bug weakness, we can still target Zeraora and other Volt Switch users.

Weakness to Electric, on the other hand, means weakness to Volt Switch. But, just as with Bug, there are only really a few major users of that move. And again, there are entire groups of pivots we would be able to target that do not use Volt Switch. We are more than capable of completing this concept without targeting those few pivots specifically.

This point is one I largely agree with, and one I've tried to make in the discord multiple times; U-turn users, while somewhat common, do not run the meta, and the idea that we must resist U-turn, and thus we must check U-turn users is an iffy one. I must note; checking Syclant and Urshifu is no small task given their prodigious power and coverage. While I definitely do think that U-turn weaknesses are a drawback to a typing, I don't think its one that is crippling.

With a focus on punishing Teleporting Pivots, lets look at some of the key teleports in the metas.
3) Clefable: I don't care if its banned from CAP right now. Clef should be unbanned and Im considering it to be on the table for a Teleport Pivot we should try and punish. Looking towards the future of the meta rather than the present.

I don't think I should need to say this, but we are designing for the meta as it is, not the meta as it could be, as there is legitimately no way to predict that. I don't even think its obvious that Clefable, if it were in the meta, would necessarily run pivot sets rather than eg CM sets. So, please don't emphasize it when voting.

I don’t have a full submission like everyone else, but I wanted to raise a point I feel like some of these submissions are missing: Our goal is to counter pivots, not every single pokemon in the meta.

I feel like a lot of these focus too much on just covering all possible options, aiming to get stab SE on as many pivots as possible, failing to realize that that just makes us obscenely good offensively due to the variety of coverage. Instead, I think the focus should be on the outlier pivots which don’t have any strong counterplay to, like the Slowtwins and/or Zeraora.

We not only should focus on what we want to threaten with our typing, but what we don’t. Otherwise, we may become the next problem.

Fully Support this; we're aiming to create an anti-pivot mon, but despite the fact that pivots are very common, that doesn't mean we need to create an S-rank meta destroyer. Focusing on a very specific set of pivots, or just having generic tools is really helpful.

As a side-comment, I heavily disagree that pure Electric could be more defensively advantageous than Electric+Secondary Typing. I say this based on experience from the Other Metagames world, where I led Flipped--a metagame that reversed the order of pokemon's base stats, creating a ton of physically defensive Electric pokemon. Jolteon, for instance, had 130/110/65 defensive stats, and on paper looked amazing as a Wish Passer, along with Raichu, who had slightly lower stats but a better movepool. In reality, they were terrible. One of the big problems with pure Electric as a defensive typing is that while it only has one weakness, it also has very few useful resistances--only to itself, Steel, and Flying. Thus, even with their excellent stats, these pokemon just couldn't pull their weight regularly switching into strong neutral hits. A secondary typing may give a few extra weaknesses, but at the same time it is valuable for adding resistances, specializing the mon to be more effective at countering certain things than a one-weakness jack-of-all trades.
Granted, the pokemon I mentioned did have some other flaws such as less-than-ideal attacking stats and movepool, and that metagame was very different from CAP, notably having two top-tier ground attackers. Even so, I am suspect of the defensive capacity of Electric by itself.

I don't think this logic works. Flipped Jolteon and Flipped Raichu are bad because they're passive Toxic-weak Wish passers, which is an archetype that died out in DPP. That same meta also has Flipped Zeraora, which is ranked A on the rankings, and has the stats and movepool to run a hybrid defensive-offensive mon (which is likely where we're ending up). Furthermore, this is not a purely defensive mon; the mons listed there weren't offensive powerhouses, and it is likely that our mon has at least a 100 attacking stat.

Earlier on, a few people argued weakness to Future Sight is not crippling, and even manageable, as long as 28 can come in and beat or scare out the Teleporter and then get out of there. I disagree. We'd frequently be switching in as they click Future Sight, essentially requiring us to be able to OHKO them in the one turn we have before we need to flee. Worse, our need to switch out before FS hits can easily be predicted and exploited. We would find ourselves preventing a Teleport only to provide a free switch to whatever mon they would have Teleported in, making this incredibly counterproductive to the concept. As such, I believe a FS weakness should disqualify the relevant typings, regardless of whatever other cool benefits they offer.

Lastly, I think that any typings that don't offer SE STABs on Slowking should not be slated. Even if it offers SE STAB on Blissey. Blissey's defenses are so lopsided that we can easily design a physical mon or a strong Psyshock user that can muscle through it. Not the case with Slowbro and Slowking. Taken collectively, they can be defensive on either end of the spectrum, and can easily heal off medium damage with Regenerator. We need SE STAB to beat them, plain and simple.

This post overly focuses on King, beating it is very important, and concept relevant, but not to the point that any typing weak to FS is unusable. I think typings that can neither hit it SE and are weak to FS aren't really concept relevant, but like, "Slowking uses FS on the switch in turn 28 comes in, 28 clicks ridic stab move, 28 switches out" is an interaction that 28 wins, not one it loses. If we're weak to FS and we can't hit Slowking hard then ye, its a bad thing, but being weak to FS doesn't kill the mon, nor does being unable to hit it with stab; there's plenty of strong coverage moves; see Power Whip on Centiskorch.

On a completely different note:
I think the prevalence of U-Turn is being understated. It's a very common move on pivot teams, finding itself commonly on , , , , , and just to name a few. Having a Bug weakness would be very detrimental to the concept given the ubiquity of U-Turn on pivot teams, and while I don't think it's an absolute dealbreaker, we should have a very serious conversation about what a typing can do to circumvent choiced U-Turn pressure to not allow U-Turn users to just pivot at free will.

As before, its worth noting that a fair few of these mons are running uninvested U-turns (an uninvested 140 bp move isn't a dealbreaker). I still view a bug weakness as a negative, but not a disqualifier.

Edit: I'll make a post about typings soon, but just wanted to get a post out on a few claims I thought didn't quite hold up.

All we need is the ability to threaten at least 2 defensive pivots with SE stabs and to be able to check at least one offensive pivot defensively. I don't think any other hard requirements exist.

 

[dex]

Pick someone else's typing sub and just dive deep on it, discuss its matchup with pivots, offensive and defensive, the meta, and any general perks it has (eg toxic resist, sr resist, etc).

Electric / Fairy is a type we ought to seriously consider.

What defensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against?
Electric/Fairy excels at pressuring notable defensive pivots like Tomohawk and Mandibuzz since both STABs hit for SE damage. Neither pivot really threatens Electric/Fairy with their sets. The type combo resists dark, flying, and bug which leaves Mandibuzz struggling if it isn’t running toxic to cripple. Likewise, Tomohawk’s STABs are resisted by the typing, so heat wave is the only option Tomahawk has that deals decent damage. Despite Corviknight not being as prevalent in CAP, it is yet another favorable match up since most Corviknight sets face the same issues Tomohawk faces in that fighting and flying options deal little damage.

I think it’s clear that the electric typing would let CAP28 threaten bulky waters such as the Slowtwins and Toxapex, so there isn’t much of a need to delve further into this point.

Fairy typing is meant to addresses offensive pivots more than anything, but it does threaten Cyclohm. Cyclohm is only able to retaliate with fire and ice coverage or crippling with toxic, provided it is carrying it, since Electric/Fairy resists/is immune to both STABs.

The typing has neutral options to hit the likes of Blissey and Tangrowth, but really flounders in the matchups against Amoonguss, Ferrothorn, Rotom-Heat, and Equilibra.

What offensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against?
The type combo effectively shuts down Zeraora by resisting electric, fighting, and dark. Fairy moves, while neutral, are obviously threatening to a Zeraora given it’s 88/75/80 bulk. Electric/Fairy also forces Hydreigon to rely on coverage to deal damage which makes choice locked sets sweat, especially with Hydreigon’s 4x weakness to fairy. Hex+Darts Dragapult needs CAP28 to be statused to deal massive damage with Hex, and if it is the Thunder Wave variant, it isn’t getting it.

Fairy also helps pressure the likes of Urshifu and Kerfluffle; however, Urshifu can carry poison coverage and Kerfluffle has STAB fairy as well as poison coverage to threaten back.

The Astrolotl matchup is fine. Fairy hits Astrolotl for neutral damage and Astrolotl hits back with neutral fire-type damage. Krilowatt and Syclant take neutral damage from both STABs, but they can retaliate with neutral STABs of their own or hit SE with ground coverage. The typing struggles most with Rotom-Heat.

What general defensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats?
Electric/Fairy has 2 weaknesses compared to the 5 resistances and 1 immunity it brings to the table. As I’ve mentioned a few times already, key resists to fighting, flying, and electric with the added benefit of a dark resist, bug resist, and dragon immunity really makes this a desirable type to stop big name pivots in the current meta.

What general offensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats?
Electric/Fairy is a very spammable offensive combo that few mons can withstand: Volt Absorb Cawmodore, Equilibra, Fidgit, Pyroak, Smokomodo, Amoonguss, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Rotom-Heat, Venusaur, and Toxtricity. This makes it really good for punishing pivots and/or their designated target. The offensive power of this type combination lets us disrupt pivot cores like Slowking+Urshifu as we can punish both the pivot and the target.

What general attributes does this offer?
As with all electric-types, immunity to paralysis is a nice perk. Access to strong reliable STABs for both physical and special approaches is a major selling point too. Since there are few mons that can reliably withstand those STABs, we are free to fire off powerful attacks with minimal worry. Electric-type gives us access to some solid utility options, namely moves that cause paralysis.

Anything I miss or gloss over? Good or bad, share your thoughts.

So here I am trying my first analysis:
Electric/Fairy is a combo I hadn't considered at the beginning of the typing discussion but I think it definitely has its perks.

I agree with Wulf saying that it excels at beating the majority of defensive pivots in the game, excluding , , and . However, I do want to note that it flat out loses to if CAP28 is physical (which seems to be what we're leaning towards, and if it ends up being special then it flat out loses to ), but this isn't a big issue in the scheme of things given that isn't used nearly as much as other defensive pivots, so I think it's a healthy place for the concept to be in in that regard.

Electric/Fairy does almost too good of a job of beating the current offensive pivots in the metagame. They pretty much are all at disadvantage or neutral against the typing (dependent on speed of course). I do appreciate the fact that it beats both and handily, but it might be too oppressive when it comes the the offensive pivots, and a typing like this could potentially full counter VoltTurn offense, which I don't see as the goal here. So I guess my only real gripe with the typing so far is that it may be too generically good (as is the case with most fairy typings).

Electric/Fairy boasts some very, very useful resistances when it comes to stopping offensive pivots, including ones to Bug and Electric (VoltTurn) and Dark and Fighting (common coverage/STAB among offensive pivots). I do worry about a lack of Water resist leaving CAP28 open to chip damage from Scald, but this is a typing that more focuses on punishing or limiting what the Teleporter switches to rather than damaging the defensive pivot itself, which I honestly believe is a totally viable route for CAP28 to take.

I do appreciate that outside of pivot mons, the typing has a number of defined losing matchups, as Wulf noted. , , , , and all wreck the typing pretty easily, coverage not withstanding. This makes me feel better about the typing being balanced in the meta as a whole.

The immunities it grants aren't the most useful, but they're situationally nice, especially in the matchup against Dragapult. However, the utility sort of ends there, though we could give it access to Moonlight flavor-wise which would be a good way of counteracting chip damage.

All in all, Electric/Fairy is a really solid typing for CAP28, and it might be one of the more optimal choices from a competitive point of view. As with most fairy typings, it's pretty damn good, and it'd be fun to see an actually good user of the typing (sorry, does not count). Overall, however, I feel like the typing would be balanced in the metagame as a whole, and I would be excited to see where it could go in this concept.

 

[Amamama]

So I’ve been experimenting a bit, since I wanted to show, what a weaker but targeted typing could mean in the context of our Project:
I was thinking a Type, that beats a good number of pivots but not much more, would be more tailored and ultimately interesting, than a type that hits most of all pivots, just by virtue of hitting anything in the Meta for good damage. Same with resistances.
I calced Each types effectiveness to pivots as a percentile compared to its effectiveness across the VR.
I also considered the raw amount of viable Pivots each typing can target offensively and defensively with their STABS in my calculation.
With this method I wanted to rule out typings that have too little targeted effectiveness, meaning Types that are good by virtue of the sheer number of Meta viable Mons they could target or types that just don’t hit enough to be viable by themselves.
Of all suggested types these types target the most pivots offensively relatively to what they hit in the meta.

1) Electric/Dark
2) Grass/Psychic
3) Bug/Dragon
4) Grass/Ice
5) Electric/Fairy

Defensively these types excel against many pivots while not covering too much else.

1) Psychic/Dragon
2) Grass/Psychic
3) Bug/Dragon
4) Electric/Fairy
5) Electric/Dark

Overall these typings deal best with what we want to target.

1) Grass/Psychic
2) Bug/Dragon
3) Electric/Dark
4) Electric/Fairy
5) Grass/Ice

Granted this doesn’t take into account any coverage on the opposing mons and doesn’t check for any other benefits or detriments a typing offers.
Also Many of the other suggested types came very close to the aboves scores.

So I tried to get an even better picture, by adding bonuses for checking other requirements, that we thought could increase the viability of a typing.
Effectiveness against our main targets, weaknesses or resists to passive damage, knock off, Close Combat Uturn and Volt Switch, Accessibility to priority, phazing and recovery moves and usefulness for set up/substitute.

The way I added these bonuses is more subjective, than the method I used before, so these results should show more a general trend, than an actual ranking.

Considering everything we want and don’t want, these types scored highest overall.

1) Dark/Fighting
2) Grass/Psychic
3) Electric/Dark
4) Bug/Dragon
5) Ghost/Dragon

I want to give two examples of typings that this method ruled out for me.

The generically good, but not targeted Typing:
Electric/Flying came in third to last, mostly due to its great defensive typing, that had the least counterplay in the meta of all suggested types.
The overall just bad typing that hits some of our targets.
Psychic/Poison which came in second to last.

This should all be taken with a grain of salt of course, but I hope I could show, that there are types, that can perform well for what we want to achieve, without being stellar on their own like grass/Psychic.
Types, that are really good but kind of overshoot, like Electric flying and types that look “too good on paper, but just happen to fit this concept really well, like ghost/dragon.

I don’t know if this is valuable at all, or if it came to late in the discussion, but maybe it’s worth to take a look at it.

Link to my Calcs for anyone who wants to take a look.

 

[Jewvia]

Lastly, I think that any typings that don't offer SE STABs on Slowking should not be slated

I do not know if I would go as far as disqualify any typings that don't apply SE STAB against Slowtwins, but I would emphasize it as one of the most important things to look at for this concept. The Slowtwins are the most important thing that we want to be able to deal with, and if we want a Pokemon that is offensive in nature, a STAB is probably the safest way to go. I don't think we can rely on the Stat stage as much here as we can for others like Blissey/Chansey. If we choose to make a physical bruiser to brute force its way through Slowking, Slowbro is just going to fill in with higher physical defense, and we will only have done half the job. There might be more that could be done in the ability stage, and we would instead take coverage moves to cover that Water/Psychic typing, but that might run the risk of being a solid offensive powerhouse that breaks everyone, pivot or otherwise. An SE STAB on Slowtwins is probably the safest baseline for CAP 28.

The other thing I wanted to look at was how the various typings hold up against some of our biggest threats defensively.

Chart made in Excel that is biased to what I valued the most defensively

If I made a mistake, do let me know, and I apologize for the inconvenience.
EDIT: I changed Poison to Toxic, since Toxic immunity is more of what we want to deal with rather than the STAB Poison itself.

The biggest key typings that I feel CAP 28 wants to emphasize are those on the left side of the chart. I feel like we want to prioritize defending or neutralizing against those without giving ourselves *too many* weaknesses from the middle, and any additional defenses we get on the right side are bonus. If we do take a weakness on the left side (such as the 3 Psychic weaknesses), then I feel that we should make up for it either offensively or w.r.t. the right hand of the chart. For instance, all 3 of those still have STAB against Slowtwins, and with help from the stat stage, could survive getting eliminated by the SE STAB Future Sight, allowing all 3 to consistently eliminate them. Likewise, both of the Fighting type choices there have access to STAB Priority Moves and Circle Throw, which help with our core concept greatly.

An imperfect defensive typing is not the end of the world, but it does help us greatly with alleviating the problems some of our biggest threats could give us. If we don't want to protect ourselves against everything, what we could do at the very least is minimize weaknesses. Psychic/Fighting or Bug/Steel for example doesn't directly resist any of what I believe are the core threats... But it also isn't weak to any of them, and is also either neutral or resistant to the rest of the typings I feel that we want to consider.

 

[quziel]

Ok, lets begin going over typings:

One typing that I would like to suggest is Ghost/Normal

This typing would enable us to 1) Hit SlowTwins super effectively, 2) give Immunity to Blissey's SToss, leaving only status and PP stall as concerns for what we'd need to get around in order to beat it, 3) resist/not be weak to U-turn and Volt Switch, and 4) turn Ghost's weakness to itself into an immunity, so we become a viable option against one of the more offensive pivots, Dragapult.
This typing has neutrality to almost every type, enabling us to tailor defensive stats to pretty much whatever power level we want. It has 3 immunities, to Fighting, Ghost, and Normal, as well as 2 resistances to Bug and Poison, and has only one weakness, to Dark.

These types also open up a range of strong STAB options.
If physical, there's Poltergeist and a range of strong physical options (though most come with recoil), as well as STAB ExtremeSpeed to help get around faster pivots like Zeraora.
If special, there's Hex, which pairs well with the status options often used to break through bulky pivots, as well the possibility of Boomburst's raw power.

This is an interesting and super-unique typing for the concept which has a couple of conceptual issues for me. It offers an immunity to Seismic Toss (major plus), SE stab vs Slowtwins, and a solid immunity to Dragapult's Shadow Ball. These are all very relevant factors and mean that it matches up positively vs many major pivots, with the only real losing matchups being Urshifu, Mandibuzz, and potentially Zeraora (Knock Off stings). That said, I am very worried about its status as basically its best wall; we've seen what that does with Equilibra, and the potential to basically center the meta around itself (again, it could be its best check) has me very worried. Good STAB coverage is always a plus for opening up more design space later.

Positives:

• Good two move coverage
• Matches up positively against: Slowking, Slowbro, Blissey, Dragapult (2+ defensive pivots, 1+ offensive pivots)
• Good stab options on both sides mean future stages have a lot of freedom.

Negatives:

• Walls itself (need to be very careful with power level)
• Dark weakness hurts some matchups (Zeraora, Urshifu, Mandibuzz)

And of course, one that isn't Dragon but still could be fun to work with:
Grass/Flying - This might seem like an unorthodox proposal for a defensive type, but it might be time to make it work considering Hidden Power Ice is gone. With a 4x resistance to Grass and resistances to Water and Fighting along with a Ground immunity, this typing does just enough defensively and very specifically targets the common mons on pivot teams. I feel like this is a type that is generically pretty bad but in this scenario could end up doing quite well, which I think could be a lot of fun to work around. Additionally, Grass/Flying allows for this mon to retain an offensive presence.

This is the only mention I can find of this typing here, and it certainly is a very interesting one. The offensive coverage is good for our needs, offering SE stab vs Slowtwins, Urshifu, Krilowatt, and probably some others I'm forgetting, and definitely what I'd call "targeted" offensive coverage. It also provides a really nice Water resist, Electric neutrality, and Fighting resist defensively. Overall a super interesting typing, though I do worry a tad about knock vulnerability, but that's not something that can't be worked around. Plus its offensive coverage is weirdly sorta good? we don't have too many defensive steels atm (barring libra), so Grass/Flying frees up some moveslots.

Positives:

• Good two move coverage
• Positive matchup against: Slowking, Urshifu, Slowbro, Amoonguss, potentially Zeraora, potentially Krilowatt
• Good stab options physically and specially mean future stages have a lot of freedom.

Negatives:

• Easily lured by common tech options (Slowbro can run Ice beam)
• Pressured by Knock Off (if going HDB)

I've been saying it the entire time and here I am finally submitting it.
Electric/Flying

This one is pretty similar to Grass/Flying, offering similar matchups, but arguably better resists due to being wayy less exploitable (no 4x weakness). That said, it does have potentially awkward two move coverage, which while not mandatory at all, does constrain our available design space a tad when choosing archetypes we can fulfill. That said, there's no rule that a mon has to run two stabs at all times (see Zapdos). The relative lack of exploitativity when it comes to weaknesses is a major upside of this typing in general, when compared to a lot of options

Positives:

• Hard to exploit using lure/tech options (if we beat slowking, we probably beat slowking)
• Positive matchup against: Slowking, Urshifu, Amoonguss, Slowbro, Rillaboom
• Doom Desire resist

Negatives:

• Difficult STAB coverage, would require either 3 moves dedicated to attacks or other non-stab coverage
• Again, pressured by Knock Off (potentially if we go HDB)
• While it has tons of neutral matchups, it does struggle a bit in positive matchups
• Lack of good electric physical stab does constrain future stages a tiny bit.

I'm going to restate some of the typing from my previous post to make them more in tune with a submission as opposed to just theoretical discussions about their pros and cons. Apologies if I sound repetitive.

1. Electric / Psychic

This is a really cool typing from a hybrid offensive-defensive standpoint. While it does struggle a tad in terms of offensive matchups thanks to well, its weakness to dark, it offers a pretty universally great matchup vs literally every defensive pivot we have. Well, barring Equilibra, which laughs at this STAB combo (easily fixed by coverage). Still, this is great offensively on both sides, with the caveat that physical electric stab is pretty difficult, which means the design space for future stages is pretty damn open. If we can work around its frankly bad matchup vs offensive pivots I think this one is good.

Positives:

• Hits basically every defensive pivot: Slowking, Slowbro, Amoonguss, Mandibuzz, potentially Blissey, Toxapex
• Future Sight + Doom Desire resist

Negatives:

• Struggles against basically every offensive pivot: Astrolotl (Knock Off), Urshifu, Zeraora (Knock Off), Syclant, Dragapult
  • If Knock weakness can be worked around this becomes less bad due to hitting a load of stuff neutrally

2. Electric / Bug

This typing is very similar to Electric/Flying in terms of the resists and offensive coverage offered. Like Electric/Flying it is SR weak, like Electric/Flying it offers a solid Fighting resist, however it trades a Flying resist (not hyper relevant barring Tomohawk) for an Electric resist (very relevant for Zeraora). From an offensive standpoint it offers solid but not amazing coverage, being unable to meaningfully threaten Astrolotl with its STABs alone, constraining the moveslots a tad (potentially, this is assuming we even run both STAB moves), but offering very relevant SE hits vs Slowking, Mandibuzz, and Pex (like every Electric) as well as Tangrowth.

Positives:

• Solid matchup vs Slowking, Mandibuzz, Pex, Tangrowth, Zeraora, Rillaboom, stretch matchups include Urshifu and Krilowatt
• Good defensive typing offering a fairly unique Fighting+Elec resist
• Good coverage options on both sides means more design space in the future.
• Doom Desire resist

Negatives:

• Again, pressured by Knock Off (assuming HDB)
• Awkward at best STAB combo could make moveslots difficult for future stages

I’m going to throw a type into the ring: Electric / Dark.

Another Electric typing which brings solid matchups vs a load of pivots (Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Slowtwins), while also offering a potentially solid matchup vs some Dragapult sets (physical sets click U-turn or Dragon Darts). This typing again offers useful coverage on both sides which suits it as a fairly offensive typing option. I do worry a tad about well, the fighting weakness, and how that connects with some of the threats we want to take on, namely Zeraora, but lets do an analysis:

Positives:

• Good matchup vs several defensive pivots including Slowking, Toxapex, Mandibuzz (this laughs at Mandi), Slowbro
• Workable matchup vs several offensive pivots including Dragapult, reach include Krilowatt, Astrolotl (these are at least not losing)
• Great offensive coverage
• Good stab options
• Future Sight + Doom Desire resist

Negatives:

• Fighting weakness hurts Zeraora matchup a fair bit (taking Pfists + CC could be difficult)

For the moment, I want to pitch Psychic/Dragon for 28.

This is an excellent defensive typing for this combo, making is very resilient in the face of Future Sight pressure, easily taking on all of Slowking's attacks, and giving us a solid matchup against some offensive pivots like Krilowatt and Rotom-Heat. However, I do worry a tad about this offensively. While Latios has shown that this typing is a proper nuke offensively, that was with exceptional offensive stats, and while those are possible, I do worry that without being a truly high echelon, we'd be unable to pressure a lot of defensive pivots. The typing is also reasonable, but not amazing offensively.

Positives:

• Excellent defensive typing, providing key Volt Switch, Scald, and Future Sight resists
• Solid matchup vs several Electric type offensive pivots

Negatives:

• No SE hits vs defensive pivots (barring amoonguss, tomohawk) means that design space could be difficult going forward (though possible)

The typing that stands out the most to me is Fighting/Electric, as it is a type combination with a lot of utility, both offensively and defensively, that is specifically relevant to the concept of being an "anti-pivot", while still having enough weaknesses and counterplay to be interesting.

This typing is an excellent mixture of offensive and defensive attributes, giving the signature "hit half the pivots SE" that Electric typings offer backed up by one of the strongest offensive typings of Fighting. This is an exceptional stab combo, giving SE hits vs Slowking, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Slowbro, Blissey and Equilibra, as well potentialyl taking on Urshifu and Zeraora. That said, it does have noted difficulties in the face of an impending Future Sight and struggles a bit vs the grass type defensive pivots. Overall a great typing from both an offensive and defensive standpoint.

Positives:

• Excellent matchups against a huge number of defensive pivots such as Toxapex, Slowbro, Blissey, Equilibra, Slowking.
• Potential solid matchups against Zeraora and Urshifu
• Doom Desire resist
• Good STAB combo

Negatives:

• Future Sight weakness
• Very weak to Amoonguss

Electric / Fairy is a type we ought to seriously consider.

This is another truly excellent typing from the standpoint of beating pivots, again, offering the standard Electric type matchup against Pex, Slowking, Slowbro, and Mandibuzz, as well as a truly amazing matchup against a lot of offensive pivots thanks to well, just how great Fairy typing is defensively. That said, while it has the Electric type offenses, Fairy typing does struggle to provide a huge amount of meaningful offensive coverage in combination with Electric, expanding it to cover Dragapult and well, Dragon types in general. Overall this typing is probably the best defensively out of the Electric types, but not the best offensively.

Positives:

• Excellent defensive typing giving good matchups vs Urshifu, Zeraora (both can't hit it effectively), Dragapult
• It can't be overstated how relevant these resists are
• Electric typing again offers solid coverage against a lot of defensive pivots including Slowking, Toxapex, Slowbro, Mandibuzz
• Good stabs on both sides

Negatives:

• Stonewalled by a few pivots including Equilibra, Amoonguss (this is minor an expected, and can easily change in the movepool stage)

Apologies, trying to get through all of these and there's a lot.

There are two typings I want to highlight with this post.

Electric/Ghost

This again, offers all the usual Electric advantages, while also forcing Urshifu to click Wicked Blow to hit it. Outside of that however, it is somewhat limited; with its main advantage over other Electric typings being a Seismic Toss immunity. Overall an interesting typing, and certainly one we could make succeed, but I can't really view it as being exceptional over Electric/Fighting which offers similar advantages. Great STAB coverage though.

Positives:

• Great STAB coverage, being nearly unresisted
• Standard Electric-type matchups + Blissey

Negatives

• Knock weakness kills otherwise good Zeraora matchup

Ice/Ghost

Finally a non-electric typing lol. This typing is truly excellent offensively, hitting essentially every defensive pivot SE. SE hits on Slowking, Slowbro, Mandibuzz, Amoonguss, Tangrowth, only really missing Toxapex and Blissey, the latter of which you wall easily (freeze dry exists, but I'm not assuming it). This is also combined with a nearly perfect STAB combo, which makes designing movesets easy for the future. Finally, there's good STAB options on both sides. That said, this is where the good sides end; this typing, while excellent offensively, really struggles defensively, with a potent Knock Off and SR weakness and well, a ton of weaknesses in general. Still, this is a solid idea simply because of how great it is offensively

Positives:

• Truly Excellent offensively, hitting Slowtwins, Amoong, Mandi, Tang, and Hawk SE. Somehow a fair few of these can't hit it SE with their main sets.
• Like, just really good offensively
• Great STAB options on both sides means a lot of design space

Negatives:

• This is very bad defensively with every offensive Pivot barring Krilowatt being able to hit it SE
• Doom Desire Weakness
• Very few solid switchins due to a lack of coherent resists.

I want to highlight Grass/Ice.

Ice typings are so fun, but definitely playing with Fire (ha). This is another typing that offers a truly tremendous number of SE hits vs a ton of relevant defensive pivots, and, unlike Ghost/ice, it actually has a single offensive pivot that it technically walls, Krilowatt. For that reason I think its a bit better than Ice/Ghost, because it can actually stop some pivot combos based off typing alone (this is nice), and lacking a Knock weakness is nice, even if every Knock user (barring Pex) can otherwise hit it SE. This is one of my favorite of the "bad" typings because of its very defined strengths and weaknesses, though the 4x fire weakness cares me because it means a mon it could otherwise come in on (Slowking) could just remove it. Difficult to evaluate how likely this is given Slowking's fairly rigid set.

Positives:

• Again, truly excellent offensively hitting Slowtwins, Amoonguss, Mandibuzz, Tangrowth SE using the STABs.
• Solid water resist means it can come in on Slowtwin standard sets
• It actually has a positive matchup vs an offensive pivot; Krilowatt.
• Really good STAB combo and STAB options

Negatives:

• Very exploitable defensively
• Knock weak as hell (assuming HDB)
• Doom Desire weakness
• 4x Fire weakness means a lot of mons can lure it in and KO it (barring insane bulk)

Heyo, I'm back with another type suggestion. I want to note that Electric/Flying is my first choice for it, but I thought I'd throw another hat into the ring that should be a little familiar to you.

Grass/Fighting (also known as Episode 6: Return of the Loom)

Grass typings continue to be fun, offering a great mix of offensive and defensive attributes. This one trades the truly insane offensive attributes of Grass/Ice for a very balanced set of offensive and defensive factors. The Slowking matchup is still very possible despite a Psychic weakness (could be lured by psychic, but unlikely), it gives a very solid Libra matchup thanks to SE stab and a ground resist, and a good matchup against Zeraora. That said, the typing does have its limitations given a Future Sight weakness (more of an in-play restriction), and a number of probable no-win matchups vs stuff like Tomohawk, Mandibuzz, and Amoonguss. Still, something you can fix with coverage.

Positives:

• Great mix of good matchups vs offensive and defensive pivots including Slowking, Slowbro, Zeraora, Equilibra, potentially Krilowatt
• Good stab options on both sides
• Solid resists including Water, Dark, Ground

Negatives:

• Flying weakness is very relevant vs a number of pivots, including Mandibuzz, Tomohawk
• Future Sight weakness is an in-play limitation.

Submitting Grass / Poison:

Based on typing, CAP 28 would have an advantageous matchup against Zeraora, Toxapex, Tangrowth, and Kerfluffle. Zeraora's only real way to hit CAP 28 would be Blaze Kick, which is a bit dire as a result of the power decrease; Toxapex wouldn't be able to potentially poison CAP 28 with Toxic, although Scald burns and Knock Off could prove somewhat troublesome; Tangrowth is only really able to use Knock Off to make progress against CAP 28 if it has this typing; and Kerfluffle is simply walled by this typing, being threatened by potential STAB Poison-type attacks and forced to pivot out with Parting Shot.

This typing is very similar to Grass/Fighting exchanging Grass/Fightings great Fighting stab for a solid Fairy-resist, Fighting-resist, and Toxic immunity, all three of which are very relevant here, and give the typing a solid matchup against Kerfluffle, Zeraora, potentially the Slowtwins, potentially Urshifu, and potentially Krilowatt. It does keep the Future Sight weakness as above, and unlike above it can't just style all over Libra as easily. Overall an interesting typing, and a Toxic immunity is always relevant.

Positives:

• Balanced offensive and defensive pivot advantages including Zeraora, Slowtwins, Kerfluffle, Urshifu, and Krilowatt (some are stretch goals)
• Toxic Immunity means getting worn down is more difficult

Negatives:

• This is a very awkward STAB combo
• Future Sight weakness
• Flying weakness is again relevant for Tomo and Mandi, but its not 4x this time.

I will be submitting Psychic / Fighting:

This is a very strong offensive typing, with literally like the only resists to the STAB combo being Psychic types and Aegislash. Sadly, the best pivot in the format is a Psychic type. That said, outside of that it does match up fairly well vs a number of defensive pivots including Chansey, Amoonguss, potentially Tomohawk, Toxapex. Losing matchups include Slowtwins and Mandibuzz (this is assuming it doesn't get like Tpunch). Very easy to fix up this combo with additional coverage is one plus. Matchups vs offensive pivots are a bit iffier, but we take neutral damage at best from Zeraora, which is nice, and well, neutral damage in general from most pivots, which is expected given the lack of resists that this typing offers barring Fighting and Rock.

Positives:

• Very solid offensive coverage hitting Amoonguss, Toxapex, Blissey, Chansey, Equilibra,maybe Tomohawk, and potentially Zeraora / Urshifu
• Solid coverage options on both sides

Negatives:

• Potentially losing matchups against Mandibuzz, Slowtwins depending on bias and coverage.
• Lack of resists in general.

I'm gonna try submitting Ghost/Dragon.

This is a very solid typing vs pivots as shown by Dragapult and Pajantom, which is where I run into issues; the existence of these two very meta-relevant mons does not help our design space much at all. If we're a fast attacker we're gonna struggle to differentiate ourselves from Dragapult, if we're an average speed wallbreaker the same issues comes up with Pajantom. While there is definitely design space available (eg sweeper, priority, being slow) I don't think there's enough advantages here to outweigh the in-built reduction of the design space. That said, good matchups vs Blissey, Slowtwins, and Heattom, and potentially Zeraora is nice

Positives:

• Amazing offensively and defensively vs Slowtwins, good vs Blissey, solid vs Rotom-Heat, Rillaboom.

Negatives:

• This design space already has a fair few examples
• Knock Weak.

(casually steals G-Luke's typing sub framework)

Ight, I wanna talk about a typing that hasn't seemed to get much recognition but feels fairly pro-concept nonetheless.. Ghost/Dark

Imo Ghost/Dark is interesting due to it's abundance of neutral matchups, along with positive matchups where it really counts. Along with that, STAB Knock Off (punishes the heavy-duty boots mons), a Future Sight immunity, and basically an immunity to the pink blobs (Chansey and Blissey) makes me love this typing. Priority in Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch is also quite nice.

This is def a less extreme and safer version of Ghost/Normal (it doesn't wall itself) offering a good offensive typing (albeit not together) in Ghost/Dark, useful defensive typing in terms of just being very difficult to exploit, and a broadly neutral at worst matchup vs most pivots (as would be expected). This neutral at worst matchup with few resists barring Blissey is one of my points of contention with this typing as the lack of super-defined weaknesses does make the design space less interesting, but that's very minor. Offensively it pressures the Slowtwins effectively, as well as hitting a ton of offensive pivots for good damage such as Dragapult.

Positives:

• This typing is rarely at a disadvantage

Negatives:

• This typing is rarely at an advantage

Now with that said, I would also like to talk about one other typing that I don't believe anyone else in the thread has brought up yet. And that would be plain old Electric. There have been a ton of electric dual types talked about in the thread so far, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder if a secondary type is needed, or if it is even a good thing here. Electric is a rather unique typing in that it only has one weakness, so unless we are really relying on the resistances of a secondary type, staying single typed can often be a defensive advantage, and I think that may be the case here.

Finally we get to pure electric. As expected, this typing brings all of the advantages the earlier electric typings have shown, hitting Slowking, Slowbro, Toxapex, Mandibuzz SE, while providing solid resists esp to Zeraora. That said, the lack of a secondary typing does mean that it doesn't really have resists other than Electric and Flying, but that also means it doesn't have weaknesses other than ground. This is def a typing we could make work.

Positives:

• Purest distillation of Electric advantages vs Slowking, Slowbro, Toxapex, Mandibuzz, Zeraora
• Doom Desire Resist

Negatives:

• Doesn't really bring anything else; rarely a bad typing, but outside of the above rarely a great typing

I'll be subbing Bug/Dragon.

I like this one a lot; it offers an incredible Slowking matchup, a very solid Zeraora matchup, a workable Urshifu matchup and is just so unique. Bug typing gives a load of very unique attacks that we can explore in later stages, a very solid Fighting and Ground resist, and dragon typing offers the usual amazing gamut of resistances. I do worry a tiny bit about a Knock weakness (HDB), but like, if scratching out every single SR or Dark weak typing would be very disappointing. While it does offer a Ground resist, it might struggle to actualize it beyond Colossoil.

Positives:

• Great offensive matchup vs Slowtwins, Tangrowth
• Great defensive matchup vs a load of pivots including Zeraora, Urshifu, Krilowatt, Rillaboom
• Tons of great attacking options on both sides

Negatives:

• Bug does not add much in terms of attacking coverage to dragon
• Knock weak thanks to SR (HDB)

I got some free time do do a really quick writeup for Water/Grass.

Another very interesting Grass typing; this time offering a very solid SE hit vs Slowking without many of the usual disadvantages of Grass typings, that is, no Fire weakness, and no Electric weakness. Very interesting typing. Gives potentially amazing matchups vs Slowtwins, Krilowatt from typing, but this is where the advantages struggle; outside of Water and Ground this typing offers very few resistances, and it does have a fair few exploitable areas, mainly the U-turn weakness. That said, also very few weaknesses. STAB combo is ok, but does struggle vs Dragon and Grass types (easy to fix up). One of the more difficult to evaluate typings here because of a very targeted set of resists and SE hits, which I do like.

Postiives:

• This has a basically no-loss matchup vs the water-type pivots such as Slowtwins and Krilowatt, also annihilates Equilibra
• Very solid attacking options on both sides
• DD Resist

Neutral:

• Including neutral for this typing alone; it has an absolute plethora of neutral matchups which we could customize using stats, ability, and movepool

Negavites:

• No resists barring Water, Ground, Steel
• U-turn weakness hurts
• STAB combo has very noteworthy holes.

Dark/Fighting

This typing has the same issue as Ghost/Dragon; its quite well explored, and the existence of Urshifu means that the design space for this typing is definitely limited. That said, its truly amazing offensively, and has enough defensive matchups (see Astrolotl, Dragapult) that it could thrive. Again, the existence of Urshifu and Voodoom hurts this typing.

I'll submit something, why not? Submitting Grass / Psychic for consideration.

Another very interesting Grass typing with a relevant and techable 4x weakness. This typing dominates the Slowtwins, has a valuable set of resists, and has great STAB options on both sides. Its weaknesses are definitely the holes in its coverage (as shown by Celebi), and how incredibly weak it is to U-turn, as well as a plethora of weaknesses. Very targeted typing. Positive matchups include Slowtwins, Amoonguss, sorta Zeraora (depends on physical bulk), potentially Krilowatt (speed). Very negative matchups however against Astrlotl, Mandibuzz, Syclant, Rotom-Heat

Positives:

• Amazing Slowtwin and Pex matchup, and good matchups against a few Electric (Zeraora), and Water (Krilowatt) types
• Future Sight resist
• Good stab options on both sides

Negatives:

• As before, very easy to exploit weaknesses
• Noted holes in stab coverage make movesets awkward

Done!!

Posting so that I don't lose this to a power cut, will be editing in more typings as I go.

 

[jas61292]

Looking across all these typings, I think the ones that I prefer the most are Electric/Ghost, Electric/Flying, Electric, and Grass/Ice. My personal preference here is for electric types, as they do the best job pressuring the exact things we want to pressure. We decided in concept assessment that we wanted good offensive presence to pressure our targets, and nothing does that as well as Electric typing, in my opinion. And while I believe that Electric by itself is good enough to take care of everything we need, I like the Ghost or Flying secondaries as well, because they both provide us with the opportunity to take on a few additional mons, without going too far.

Ghost provides a nice offensive STAB that makes us hard to switch into, without outright causing us to wall too many things. At the same time, it provides us with a unique opportunity to have an advantage over Blissey in the typing stage, being immune to its Seismic Toss.

Flying, on the other hand, gives us an advantage over Amoonguss, another bulky Regen pivot that is not naturally pressured by Electric alone. It also gives us the possibility to potentially pressure something like Urshifu, as we would resist one of its STABs, and hit it back super effectively.

The other type I mentioned, Grass/Ice, is really cool, as it is the kind of type that might normally be looked at as weak, but fits our goals very nicely. Grass hits the Slow twins, while Ice pairs excellently with it offensively to hit flying and grass types. It also has excellent defensive qualities in resisting Scald and Volt Switch. In terms of taking on an offensive pivot, it probably provides one of the best match-ups in its ability to shut down Krilowatt. But perhaps what I like the most about this type is that it does everything we really need it to do, and nothing more. It has a lot of weaknesses, but none of them are to moves carried by our most key targets. The fact that it will likely have a number of things that can threaten it by typing means that we will have a lot more wiggle room in later stages to compensate, rather than having to scale things back later as we would if we chose a type that got the offensive hits we need while also being more all around solid defensively.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Ok so since I haven't really posted my thoughts much here I wanna give my thoughts on some typings. None of this is ordered.

Typings I like and hope get slated:

Electric / Psychic: While still having all the strengths of Electric-types (pressuring Slowtwins, Pex, and Mandibuzz), Psychic is an interesting combo for hitting what is usually a stop to most other typings: Amoonguss. Alongside the plus of being able to resist both delayed moves, this is a very appealing and meta relevant option. I think the largest flaw aside from Equilibra blocking like 90% of all these Electric-typings is probably the weakness to Dark which means a Weakness to Knock Off. A lot of the offensive pivots carry Dark Moves and Knock Off, so they will be able to pressure this typing a lot more. Although this mostly applies to all mons reliant on HDB to bypass hazards and particularly the Sneaky Pebbles, being directly weak to Knock means those pivots who carry it will be able to make more meaningful progress against us, which does hurt the vision a bit. But this is still a typing that could totally work for this mon.

Electric / Bug: This is one of my favorites. Being able to stop Zeraora (who is a massive help to pivots) sans Blaze Kick is huge, and it does still have a lot of really cool benefits such as the usual Electric-type shpeal, and that ability to beat some Grass-types more is also cool since most Electrics struggle with that. For the most part Bug is a defensive typing that mostly seeks to add resists, which in this case I am fine with. It could suck down the line that Bug isn't particularly useful in a lot of cases, but its a typing that I think can certainly work, and I really hope it gets slated.

Electric / Dark: Its a typing that I think is probably the most optimized of the ones I particularly like, but it isn't too much so I'm still super on board with it. Electric/Dark gives us a very nice set of STABs and some really nice resists to stuff like Dragapult, which is always welcome aside from the usual Electric deal. The possibilities for moves that Dark implies is also very interesting from a utility sense. Honestly my problem mostly lies in that 4 weaknesses kinda feels like a lot, and that the Zeraora matchup is kind of an annoyance. Otherwise, really cool typing

Grass / Ice: I, for the most part, agree with what quz said. Its a typing with very clear strengths, those being its incredible SE capabilities, and very clear weaknesses, that being its an Ice-type and Ice-type are the worst defensively. I like what it offers as a typing and it would be a supremely interesting route, and even if Slowking can run coverage to counteract this typing, it having to consider using Flamethrower over Dragon Tail for us is honestly a great showcase of how that premiere pivot is discouraged by a Grass/Ice CAP28. My largest problem with it aside from the obvious weaknesses is more of its matchup with Toxapex. Aside from a certain move that you know what I am talking about, not being able to hit Toxapex super-effectively via STAB is a gigantic deal, considering how large of an obstacle it is and how relevant Pex is to the concept. This is a challenging obstacle, but I think one that we can conquer with proper planning and coordination. Even if that is my large problem, I don't think this type should be slept on at all.

Electric: I was planning to submit this, but jas did a better job than I ever really could. Electric is a really interesting typing resulting almost completely from its simplicity: It doesn't have a large number of weaknesses to anything murderous to us in exchange for not really having a secondary STAB. I think this opens up the possibility for moves much more, and I think in this case its simplicity works wonders for the concept. Also one of my favorites.

 

[reachzero]

This Pokemon could easily go in a bunch of directions, and this one we pick will likely dependent a lot on the type we choose. Some typings run the route of being hard for pivots to meaningfully hinder, such that they can run a bulky setup approach. Some have STABs that have the potential to hit very hard immediately, but likely will have limited defensive capacity that depends on particular matchups to switch in (the wallbreaker approach). Finally, some are unlikely to want to come in several times at all, but are good types to use pivots to attempt an all-out sweep.

For each style of play, I'll name one or two favorite typings.

For bulky setup (the "Zygarde/Gliscor/Mega Altaria approach"), I think Grass/Water (way edgier than Water/Grass) is my favorite. It doesn't have a lot of resistances, but it has the right ones to face the major pivots, and the dominance of Equilibra and Slowking guarantees that it will never struggle with opportunities to get in. Yes, it is weak to U-turn. No, that is not the end of the world. Especially notable for this typing is the Ground resistance, very valuable in CAP.

For the wallbreaker approach (the "Kyurem/Kartana approach"), I favor Grass/Ice or Electric/Dark. These typings lack easy switch-ins outside of Slowking or Toxapex, but since those are some of our major targets, that works just fine. Neither of these types are likely to switch in many times, but each time they come in, the great type coverage should provide a good impact. Both of these types are weak to U-turn, a point which I will discuss at the end of this post. Grass/Ice, however, has the major selling point that it the best possible typing for taking on Krilowatt, which is one of the hardest Pokemon in the metagame to actually counter. The value of this for an anti-pivot Pokemon cannot be understated. Electric/Dark is the best type in the game for punishing Slowking, Toxapex and Mandibuzz, is not walled by either Equilibra or Astrolotl, and has a great capacity to go either physical or special (physical Electric is a lot better than it sounds because the premier defensive Pokemon are Flying type at the moment).

For the all-out sweep approach (the "Aurumoth/Volcarona approach"), I favor Ghost/Electric. It has amazing coverage while retaining clear counters, it supports either physical or special while even leaving room for the possibility of mixed, it aligns well with some interesting abilities and items (more on items soon). It threatens all of the pivots we want to threaten extremely well, though likely will only get one chance to do so. This type is weak to Knock Off, which matters a lot. Here is why!

Finally, an important note about weakness to Knock Off and/or U-turn: considering that our project is about pivots, it's hard to imagine why it would ever be a positive for an offensive threat to be weak to these. I would like to note that while Toxapex and Mandibuzz, for instance, like to use Knock Off and U-turn, neither is particularly powerful, which makes this a golden opportunity to use Weakness Policy, an incredibly powerful offensive item that has wonderful interaction with Knock Off especially. Remember that weaknesses are also sometimes opportunities!

 

[Mova]

Even though I would normally root for giving a CAP a Normal/whatever typing because we don't have one after 29 mons, Normal/Ghost walls itself and that is not what we want because it's a bulky typing.

However, I willl say that several of the Electric combinations do what we want against Slowbro and Slowking in regards to matchups. On the Discord, I haven't been decisive, but I would say Electric/Psychic and Electric/Fighting can easily help against Chansey and Blissey depending on what STAB attacks we give the CAP. Pairing it with Fighting also helps us combat the everpresence of Equilibra (somewhat) and Urshifu by matchup as well. Most of these combinations would be hardwalled by Equilibra, though.

 

[Amamama]

I want to back up Bug/Dragon.

This is a truly unique typing, which has never been explored before.

First its weaknesses:
this type Combo suffers most from it’s bad coverage. Especially both STABs being resisted by both Steel and Fairy is something that can hold it back offensively.
Defensively its biggest weakness is that to stealth rocks, which could make it harder to come In repeatedly without wearing HDB.

But This type offers a great matchup against some of the major defensive pivots, most notably the Slowtwins and Tangrowth, threatening them with SE STAB while resisting their main STAB.
With its resist to ground and fighting it offers a good option against Equilibra, Choice locked Shifu and Kerfluffle.
Similarly it works great against Zeraora, as it resists Plasma Fist and Close Combat, leaving most Zeraora sets with only Knock Off to threaten it.
While Dragon type gives access to its signature nukes and a phazing move in Dragon Tail, Bug shares a host of interesting Tech options especially on the physical side, like leech life and first impression and it’s own powerful STAB in Megahorn.

All in all I think trying out this completely unique typing could make for a really fun process.

The second Type I want to Back up is Electric/Dark.

I think this is an interesting typing especially, because it gives some room for offensive counter play, while still threatening the vast majority of defensive Pivots.
Its STAB Combo hits Tomo, Mandibuzz, The Slowtwins and The Pex for Super effective damage, while still affording it with means to threaten common Ground, Grass and Dragon types.
I think the most interesting feature of this type is its ability to hit the slowtwins with both its STABs, combined with the great utility that Dark type moves offer.
Despite being geared mostly towards offense it offers somegood defensive utility in blocking Future Sight, while resisting doom desire and absorbing Knock Offs or the ovmccansional thunder wave.
What I like most about this type is that it still leaves some matchups open to Stats and Abilities, while giving as a good host of defensive and offensive pivots that it can threaten super effectively.

 

[quziel]

So, my draft slate is thus:

Bug / Dragon
Bug / Electric
Dark / Electric
Dark / Ghost
Electric / Fairy
Fighting / Psychic
Grass / Ice
Grass / Water

I am unsure about the last slot of Dark/Ghost but it got broad enough support, and certainly is concept relevant enough, even if its definitely a "no drawbacks" typing.

 

[Amamama]

You chose some really unique typings for the Slate and I am really happy about most of them.
The ones that I don’t really feel fit this concept are Dark/Ghost and Psychic/Fighting.
Dark/Ghost is mostly a goodish catch all type that offers little for us offensively, other than hitting the slows super effectively.
It’s defensive perks are somewhat better.
Two immunities will go a long way in helping setting up (see Mega sableye) and forcing out Blissey just by virtue of our typing while not immediately folding to shifu is nice. But else our defensive utility lacks in my opinion as we are neutral to almost all primary STABS of the mons we want to work against, while having to rely on neutral STABs or coverage for the most part.
Fighting/Psychic is kind of the opposite. It is a great offensive typing. Threatening Pex Amoonguss and Blissey at the same time is nice, but sadly this comes at the expense of not being able to break past the slowtwins - our main targets as per CA - with a STAB move.
At the same Time this Type offers little to no defensive utility against any of the common Pivots and resisting Stealth Rocks doesn’t Patch that up imo.

 

[jas61292]

Obviously there are a lot of Electric types that were talked about, and you can't really slate them all, so I'm not going to complain about that. But I do want to make the case against Electric/Fairy being one of them. Obviously, like all Electric types, it has a strong matchup against a ton of the defensive pivots we want to be taking on, but the addition of fairy does not do a ton for those main matchups. None of our main targets commonly use Fighting, Bug, or Dragon moves, and Dark is largely restricted to Knock Off, which from bulky guys is more about getting rid of your item than damaging you.

Where Fairy does have more advantages is against offensive pivots. Resisting Fighting, Dark and Bug is huge here, as it covers some of the most common moves used by pivots. Resistance to Volt Switch, U-Turn, Knock Off, Close Combat and more makes handling Urshifu, Zeraora and more, far, far easier. But that is precisely why I dislike this typing. It is that really covers just about everything without a ton of downsides. This will do far more to restrict us later on. Furthermore, I would just argue that this typing is trying to do to much. We want to be able to have good matchups against some offensive pivots, but this is a typing that just cracks open two of the best ones at the same time, and is still good against a number of others. I think it is putting too much focus on the offensive ones and not enough on the bulky ones that are our main target.

I also think that having both Electric/Fairy and Bug/Electric is a bad idea, especially when there are so many other good Electric types out there. Like Fairy, Bug adds a Fighting resist, helping with the Zeraora and Urshifu matchups, and also like fairy, offensively bug does very little to help with the matchups against bulky pivots. Overall, its hard for me to look at Bug/Electric, and not just see it as Electric/Fairy, but worse. Not that that is a bad thing. I actually vastly prefer Bug/Electric, which feels more targeted and less generically powerful. But I find the two of them too similar to really be deserving of a slot on the slate over a part Electric typing that offers more unique benefits.

Instead of both of those, I would really like to see something like Electric/Flying, Electric/Fighting or Electric make the slate. As I have stated before, Electric/Ghost is my favorite, but I think it is fair to say that that typing fills a more similar niche to Electric/Dark, and so is less deserving to take the place of Fairy or Bug. But those other types I think would make for a more diverse slate.

Electric/Flying is a typing that, like Fairy and Bug, provides a Fighting resistance, but unlike them, it provides offensive benefits that help against bulky pivots, not merely offensive ones, while still having value against Urshifu and others.

Electric/Fighting, while not one of my top Electric combos, I think would provide a better variety to the slate, because it is a type that is almost unmatched offensively against our chosen targets. While Electric/Dark is more of an offensively focused type than Fairy or Bug, Fighting takes it to the next level, being the only type able to innately destroy Blissey and Chansey, and nailing Equilibra, which is a favorite pivot partner. But on the other hand, it has to deal with a key weakness to Psychic, which effects the matchup with Slowbro and Slowking. This is an interesting tradeoff, unlike any of the other slated Electric typings.

Pure Electric, of course, is somewhat of a middle ground. Not a offensive nor defensive focused Electric types. It simply hits what we want to hit and is not weak to much, without resisting a ton either. It would provide a nice option between a more offensive and a more defensive Electric type combo.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I love what you're going for with the slate Quziel. I think you've picked a strong representation of unique typing choices that have come up in discussion. That said, I don't think options like Dark / Ghost, Water / Grass or Psychic / Fighting have had the broad amount of support that other options such as Electric / Psychic and Electric / Fighting have had in the thread. While it may be a bit boring to include a few more Electric options, I do think that it would be more representative of the discussions here, as Electric in general has been very well supported, with each of its main pairings having received specific positive discussion. Electric/ Flying should arguably make the cut too, though I think there has been a slight shift away from it.

 

[dex]

Aight I'm going to argue for Grass/Flying to be on the slate, since no one's talking about it and others have mentioned why Electric/Flying should be on it already.

Grass/Flying provides a great blend of offensive and defensive ability as a typing. The two types each help against very different groups of pivots without leaving it weak to any one in particular. Additionally, the typing gives a good amount of resistances while not being defensively oppressive like Electric/Fairy or Dark/Ghost. Also, the type gives great access to utility moves like leech seed, giga drain, spore, roost, and whirlwind. It excels at pressuring the slowtwins and the plethora of defensive grass types and grass type pivots in the tier, while not being weak to the main offensive pivots like Zeraora and Urshifu. I think it deserves some consideration for the slate, as it would be a very interesting type to work with.

 

[Amamama]

Before I finally go to sleep I want to say, that electric flying is equally untargeted as Electric fairy. Yes it is more focused on defensive pivots, than Electric/Fairy, but it has an even better defensive typing and less offensive counterplay in the meta at the moment. Right now only Syclant, Kyurem, Terrakion and Krill carry super effective coverage against it. This might limit us much more in later stages. If Electric/Fairy is something that a majority wants to eliminate from the slate I’d much rather have it swapped with pure electric or electric/fighting.

 

[Reviloja753]

There are two types on the draft slate that I personally feel are not worthy of being on the slate: Dark / Ghost and Electric / Fairy. Dark/Ghost I feel is just way too broad and neutral across the board to work for this concept. Something I particularly want with this typing is clear weaknesses of some variety. Most types on the slate I would argue have some, such as Dark/Electric being weak to Fighting or Fighting/Psychic struggling against Slowbro and Slowking. However, Dark/Ghost is just an extremely hard typing to exploit. It only has one weakness and hits basically everything besides Dark-types neutrally. It doesn't bring much to the table together besides Shadow Sneak (which isn't even guaranteed the direction we go), nuking the Slows and combining a Seismic Toss and Future Sight immunity. Moreover, I just do not feel type is the place to handle Blissey. There are multiple ways to check it across the upcoming stages, and unlike Dark/Electric, does not have many benefits against offensive or defensive pivots. It just feels like the most neutral typing humanly possible, which leaves us with few advantages and no easily exploitable weaknesses to take advantage of. As such, Dark/Ghost should be removed from the slate.

As for Electric/Fairy, it is perhaps a more extreme case than Dark/Ghost, as it is a much stronger offensive typing while having very few downsides besides being walled by Equilibra, which isn't even a main focus for the typing (even with a neutral STAB against it, we still can be obliterated by Earth Power) and Amoonguss, which is not an extremely common Regenerator pivot next to Astrolotl and Toxapex. As jas61292 mentioned (ninja'd lol), Electric/Fairy is a type combination that will strictly reduce our options and take a big bite out of our "power budget". It overall just makes the process less interesting and more likely to end up being unbalanced at the end of the day. Also, Electric/Bug is rather similar to what Electric/Fairy can do, but is more specialized, takes less out of the "power budget", and unlike Fairy has access to a draining move and a priority move. I do believe that there is a type combination that would easily fill its slot: Fighting/Electric. It has a strong offensive typing, interesting defenses, access to STAB draining and phazing, and has a very interesting relationship with both Slowbro/king and Equilibra, with Fighting/Electric both hitting them super-effectively and being hit super-effectively. It overall would make for a much more interesting type than Electric/Fairy, and thus I believe Electric/Fairy should be replaced with Fighting/Electric.

While I have little to say about these types, I do believe Grass/Water and Fighting/Psychic have simply not had enough support behind them in the thread. I'd be okay if these two stayed on but they are not combinations I am super interested in. I think I prefer Fighting/Psychic so if I had to choose one to stay it'd be that one, but I just feel neither are that worthy of being on the slate. Grass/Flying, while not a terrible typing, does not get access to Whirlwind or Leech Seed the same way it does with Giga Drain, dex18. If we feel those moves fit any typing at all they can be given. Just wanted to point that out.

Other than that, I am very happy with the slate we have. Bug/Dragon is a type combination that was not on my radar whatsoever but is extremely interesting and I am glad it's on the slate. Grass/Ice is my favorite type of them all right now for the very defined strengths and weaknesses and perhaps the novelty. Bug/Electric and Dark/Electric I basically have supported longer than any others on the slate and am very happy that they made it. Thanks for an amazing typing stage quziel! I am very much of the opinion that this type stage has been one of, if not the best I've seen. Super excited for what's ahead!

 

[99_Problems]

I haven’t been able to be very active in the process so far, but I’ve been lurking up to this point and I feel like I really need to stan for Electric/Fighting here. I feel like it’s one of the more interesting typings, being the only electric-type option besides Electric/Fairy that has resistances to both common pivot moves as well as Knock Off. Additionally, Fighting provides a whole host of options including SubPunch, Circle Throw, Drain Punch, and both special and physical priority that can be very beneficial options to have in later stages. I also think that 28’s relationship with Equilibra, while not a priority by any means, is an important thing to consider due to its prevalence in the cap meta, and Fighting stab goes a long way in this matchup. Overall, I feel that it’s a typing that absolutely should not be overlooked for the slate.

 

[Mova]

I don't really have much to say regarding the slate, other than that I agree that we should avoid any Dragon, Steel, or Fairy typing this time around. Fairy does more than what we need regarding U-turn, Knock Off, and Fighting attacks, but we should not resist all of them at once unless it's really necessary.

Regarding the slate, however, I'll say that Dark/Ghost doesn't have any real drawbacks outside of a Fairy weakness, so I'd say it's too good for what we need. The middling STAB combo is the only other prominent drawback (thanks Amamama for that), so I can't say it's what we need.

 

[quziel]

The final slate is therefore:

Bug / Dragon
Bug / Electric
Dark / Electric
Electric / Fairy
Electric / Fighting
Fighting / Psychic
Grass / Ice
Grass / Water

reasonings

Bug / Dragon:
This typing offers an incredibly unique stab combination, threatening a huge variety of pivots for SE damage, while still being a very limited and fair typing; its got tons of resists to electric, water, fighting, ground, and others, but at the same time its also weak to SR, and only neutral to fire, while having definite holes in its stab combination. This is definitely a very targeted and fair typing.

Bug / Electric:
This typing again offers a great mix of resistances to a specific set of pivots (Zeraora especially, Rillaboom) and very relevant SE hits vs defensive pivots (Slowking, Toxapex, Mandibuzz) making it very targeted to the concept at hand. At the same time it keeps the same SR weakness, and a very notable fire weakness. This is a targeted and fair typing.

Dark / Electric:
This typing targets the Slowtwins, Dragapult, and a number of other defensive pivots. With access to a number of very strong STAB moves, great offensive coverage, and targeted and relevant resistances, this typing is relevant to the concept, and has seen broad support in the thread.

Electric / Fairy:
This typing, more than any other, targets the offensive pivots on the list, potentially hard walling Zeraora and Urshifu while still threatening Mandi/Slowbrothers/Pex with strong electric stab. Some concerns have been raised about this typing being too strong, but it is still quite concept relevant.

Electric / Fighting:
In contrast to Electric/fairy, this typing offers perhaps the best offensive coverage on this list, targeting the steel/grounds that are often used to absorb Electric hits, while still having a very relevant defensive typing, providing a valuable electric/dark resistance combo. While weak to Future Sight, this typing is still incredibly competent offensively.

Fighting / Psychic:
This typing is a distinct take on the concept, dodging the Slowbrothers in favor of taking on Chansey, many of the offensive options, Amoonguss, and Libra at one time, which is something few of the other options here offer. While it does lack in terms of resistances, it also lacks in weaknesses, which offers the potential to tool this mon to take on most of the offensive pivots if needed.

Grass / Ice:
This is overall the most targeted typing on this list, being almost tailor made to take on the combination of Slowking, Amoonguss, Krilowatt, and Mandibuzz, and not much more, which is a definite plus. This typing is the most targeted in the list, and that is a very good thing, as it leaves the rest of the design process very open. There are concerns about this mon being targeted by 4x coverage, and knock off, but the offensive prowess and targeted resists make it an excellent choice.

Grass / Water
This typing came up late in the game, but is excellently targeted towards Slowking, Equilibra, and Krilowatt, three pokemon that are all very common pivots. It generally lacks resistances outside of those specific pokemon, but it also lacks weaknesses, which means it is a very blank canvas for us to design around. Because of its targeted matchup against these prominent pivots it made this list.

 

[G-Luke]

Kinda hot take, but I think Psychic Fighting is worthy of staying on. I think a lot of people have had some preconceived notions about how this CAP's path should go forward, but I think this typing stands in fierce opposition of that - in a good way! Psychic / Fighting definitely learn towards more hard hitting variants, instead of utilizing the ability to consistently switch in on threats, they punish pivots by hitting them hard enough to make them think twice about trying to pivot around this CAP in the first place. It being the only typing not concerned with facing off against the Slowtwins isn't bad either, instead we can firmly focus on different pivots like Amoonguss, Tomohawk amd Toxapex.

On the flip side, I don't like Electric / Fairy at all. I agree with all of jas's points, especially in regards to Electric / Bug. It has almost all of Electric / Bug's strengths, but none of its major weaknesses, making it far less interesting to use. I don't think its too powerful of a typing like others have voiced before me, but I think its a strictly better typing than one already slated. I think either Electric / Fighting or Electric / Psychic are much more interesting paths to go forward with - they don't carry the same checks that Electric / Bug and Electric / Dark have, and have clearly defined weaknesses and strengths that we can build upon.

I have no thoughts on Dark / Ghost - its alot safer than Ghost Normal, but it doesnt seem to do much of anything, while doing everything? If you understand my drift. I'd rather swing on Grass / Flying, (I love that typing) as that typing can actually explore so much ways to punish pivots (hard wallbreaking, draining moves, stallbreaking) while actually being pretty hard typing to break.

Closing Thoughts

Rest in Peace Dark Fairy and Bug Steel. I wish more people witnessed the innate hype behind y'all typings. I guess my ideas suck :v

 

[Pipotchi]

At the point I think Psy/Fighting is not really the way to go because it really has a horrible Slowtwins matchup and we can achieve pretty similar good coverage with a typing like Elec/Fighting or Elec/Dark, which are both slated.

I mentioned this on Discord but saying Elec/Fairy is too powerful is such a stretch when both STABs are resisted by libra, plasmanta, rotom-h, smoko, pyroak, amoonguss, venusaur, ferro, exca, fidgit, magnezone and cawmodore. Typings like Elec/Fighting have like 4 viable resists in the tier, Elec/Dark falls under the same category with only 3 or 4 viable responses.. so whats the deal there? Its small additional benefits of being a good all-round pivot answering some offensive options without needing to invest heavily down that route I only see as a positive. Its not my fav typing but it should prob be slated.

I dont really mind Dark/Ghost being slated because it feels concept relevant and does succeed vs key targets. Its a malleable typing that can find its way onto a team for its unique resists and its very hard to hit SE by our targets which means a lot of matchups can be altered, including vs things like Mandibuzz. Its a good typing that hasnt seen much love imo because it got brought up later.

I havent seen any support for Bug/Dragon really, as cool as it is its one of the typings I could see struggling the most with coverage as well as finding its place onto teams. This could be swapped out for one of the other Electric typings since I think Elec/Fly and pure Elec got a lot of comments.

Water/Grass was also very late which I think affected how much response it has gotten, but like Dark/Ghost its very concept relevant and brings unique qualities to teambuilding despite being niche. None of the other typings can offer what this offers and ofc Im biased but I think having one single typing on the board that tackles delayed move users more heavily is appropriate.

edit: woops too late but u can read my ramblings anyway lel

 

[Voltage]

Another CAP without a Normal type, sigh

I like this slate overall. Obviously there's an abundance of electric types, but I think that most of them have a place in performing the goals we've established for CAP28. I have my favorites of these from competitive and flavor standpoints, but I'll hold off an sharing too many.

Basically though, I do agree with G-Luke to an extent with respect to Electric/Fairy being a "better version" of Electric/Bug. I would hope that some voters take the legitimately powerful typing possibilities into consideration when making this CAP and how we might be able to produce a more interesting result with a typing that allows for us to explore wekanesses and shortcomings as well. That's why I really like things like Electric/Bug and Grass/Ice and even Grass/Water being on this list.

Fighting/Psychic is a little iffy to me only because of the not super great matchup against the slowtwins, and Urshifu to an extent, but I'm willing to explore it. I think there's definitely room for experimentation, so long as we're very conscious of the threats we need to beat. I'm ok with it being on the slate, if for no other reason than people consider it and what it COULD be. I don't think it'll win, but I wouldn't be torn apart if I was proven wrong.

Ultimately, I'm just hoping more or less for a non-framework CAP that isn't part Dragon, Fairy or Steel.