CAP 28 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
I thought that due to the relative freedom (in my opinion) we have in choosing our type combination for this project, it might be nice to compile a visualization for what many of our potential options could be. I wasn't really sure how best to format this so apologies if the tables are confusing but I think it works well enough here. Picking type combinations based on their resistances is only one of many ways to choose the final type, and as such this is not meant to be a definitive list of all viable type combinations, but is merely intended to be a supplementary resource that can help us throughout this stage to reach our goal. Whether or not the final type is one that appears on this list at all, or appears and ends up being one I crossed out, I truly have no idea. There might be a couple oversights but I'm only human. Anyways, here it is laid out:

Full list of typings not weak to Scald, Future Sight, Close Combat, and Plasma Fists/Volt Switch (with combos of previous CAPs scratched out):
bugbug steeldragon ghostelectric psychicflying grassice psychic
bug darkdark fairydragon grasselectric waterghostnormal psychic
bug dragondark ghostdragon groundfairyghost normalpoison steel
bug electricdark poisondragon psychicfairy ghostghost psychicpsychic
bug fairydark psychicdragon waterfairy grassghost steelpsychic steel
bug ghostdragonelectricfairy icegrass
bug grassdragon electricelectric fairyfairy normalgrass ground
bug icedragon fairyelectric flyingfairy psychicgrass psychic
bug normaldragon fire lolelectric ghostfairy steelgrass water
bug psychicdragon flyingelectric grassfire grassground water

+ Not hit super-effectively by Knock Off or weak to rocks:
bugbug steeldragon ghostelectric psychicflying grassice psychic
bug darkdark fairydragon grasselectric waterghostnormal psychic
bug dragondark ghostdragon groundfairyghost normalpoison steel
bug electricdark poisondragon psychicfairy ghostghost psychicpsychic
bug fairydark psychicdragon waterfairy grassghost steelpsychic steel
bug ghostdragonelectricfairy icegrass
bug grassdragon electricelectric fairyfairy normalgrass ground
bug icedragon fairyelectric flyingfairy psychicgrass psychic
bug normaldragon fireelectric ghostfairy steelgrass water
bug psychicdragon flyingelectric grassfire grassground water

Same as above but only what's left for easier visualization:
bug steeldragon fairyfairygrass ground
dark fairydragon grassfairy ghostgrass water
dark ghostdragon groundfairy normalground water
dark poisondragon waterfairy psychicpoison steel
dark psychicelectricfairy steel
dragonelectric fairygrass

And finally the ones that can also hit the Slowtwins with super effective STAB:
bug steeldragon fairyfairygrass ground
dark fairydragon grassfairy ghostgrass water
dark ghostdragon groundfairy normalground water
dark poisondragon waterfairy psychicpoison steel
dark psychicelectricfairy steel
dragonelectric fairygrass

This leaves us with ten type combinations and two single-types. If I chose to go further and include "able to hit Pex with super-effective STAB" we would be left with a whopping three options in dark/psychic, electric, and electric/fairy, with dark/psychic getting axed if we also choose to avoid being weak to U-Turn. This was admittedly a restrictive process and meeting all of these criteria likely won't be necessary or even possible to produce the best type in the end (to reiterate, this is not meant to be definitive of all potential options in any way and is only one angle to approach this discussion), but it was interesting personally to see the results. This was also done with the /coverage command on PS, so if you didn't know that command existed and you want to go through a similar process yourself, you can type /coverage [type1], [type2], table. Unfortunately this can only be done with up to four typings but it's still a nice resource. I'll attach the table for water + psychic + electric + fighting below so you can see these results in a slightly different visualization. There are also some more really cool typings that I've seen discussed in the discord server like electric/dark that didn't make this list but I think could work wonderfully! It's still way too early in this stage to decide anything for sure but I hope that the results are at least interesting to think about.
bug steel
dark fairy
dark ghost
dark poison
dark psychic
dragon grass
electric
electric fairy
fairy ghost
grass
grass ground
grass water

I just wanna say you're awesome for doing this kinda thing. It's cool to be able to visualize useful type combos like this.

However, I feel like it's important to say that Stealth Rock is not as big of a concern for CAP28 as people are making it out to be. Heavy-Duty Boots are a fairly ubiquitous item even on offensive mons. Having a weakness to rocks isn't a big deal and shouldn't be a huge consideration towards determining typing.
 

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
Hey, so 2spoopy created a cool summary post of a few good typings.

FILL IN SUMMARY QUZIEL

--------------

Resource Development Day

So, we've covered some relevant questions of single typings, so lets move onto broad questions of dual typings.

a) Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that do what we want offensively (beating slowking, mandibuzz, toxapex, etc.) (please cover a bunch).

b) Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that avoid weaknesses to as many offensive pivot threats as possible (Electric, Water, Psychic, Dark, Fighting) (please cover a bunch).

c) While resisting as many types as possible is nice, its often infeasible, what weaknesses won't break the bank?

d) What are some unique things we can do offensively and defensively with respect to dealing with pivots and pivot-move users?

e) Are there any final thoughts you have on particular single typings and their relevancy?


I don't want any explicit typing submissions, but broad overviews are very welcome.

--------------

I'll move onto typing submissions soon, but the more resources we can generate the better (if you make a good one I'll link it in the summary post) (I promise to get the summary done before typing subs open).

Edit:
May not have been clear enough, I want to look at typings that beat most of the threats, we don't have to beat all.
 
Last edited:
I'm using Spoo's available type chart, thank you for that resource mate! I'm also adding dragon bug after seeing it be mentioned.

a) Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that do what we want offensively (beating slowking, mandibuzz, toxapex, etc.) (please cover a bunch).

1 dragon bug (slowtwins)
1 bug steel (Slowtwins)
1 dark ghost (Slowtwins)
1 dark poison (Slowtwins)
2 dark psychic (Slowtwins, Toxapex)
2 dark fairy (Mandibuzz and Slowtwins)
3 dragon grass (Slowtwins, Kril, and Rotom-W)
3 electric (Slowtwins, Mandibuzz, Toxapex)
3 electric fairy (Slowtwins, Mandibuzz, Toxapex)
3 fairy ghost (Mandibuzz, Slowtwins)
3 grass (Kril, Rotom-W, Slowtwins)
4 grass ground (Kril, Rotom-W, Slowtwins, Toxapex)
4 grass water (Kril, Rotom-W, Slowtwins, Rotom-H)

b) Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that avoid weaknesses to as many offensive threats as possible (Electric, Water, Psychic, Dark, Fighting) (please cover a bunch).

-1 bug steel (fire)
-1 dark ghost (fairy)
-1 dark poison (ground)
-2 dark psychic (bug, fairy)
-1 electric (ground)
-2 electric fairy (ground, poison)
-2 fairy ghost (ghost, steel)
-3 dark fairy (steel, poison, fairy)
-3 grass water (bug, flying, poison)
-4 grass ground (bug, fire, flying, ice)
-5 grass (poison, flying, fire, bug, ice)
-5 dragon bug (dragon, fairy, flying, ice rock)
-6 dragon grass (bug, dragon, fairy, flying, ice poison)
Given that each weakness takes a point and each super effective STAB adds one, you get this (because I took every weakness, this isn't fully accurate for the concept):
-4 dragon bug
-3 dragon grass
-2 grass
-1 dark fairy
0 bug steel
0 dark ghost
0 dark poison
0 dark psychic
0 grass ground
1 electric fairy
1 fairy ghost
1 grass water
2 electric
And now, the biased ones:
The focused on types, according to Mr. Panda, are Electric, Water, Psychic, Dark, and Fighting. Because this is more limited, I'm putting in resistances as positives and super effective hits as negatives.
1 bug steel
1 dark poison
1 dark psychic
1 electric
1 fairy ghost
1 grass water
1 grass ground
2 dark ghost
2 dark fairy
2 grass
2 dragon grass
3 dragon bug
3 electric fairy
Which means:
2 bug steel
2 dark poison
3 dark ghost
3 dark psychic
4 dark fairy
4 electric
4 fairy ghost
4 dragon bug
5 dragon grass
5 grass
5 grass ground
5 grass water
6 electric fairy
I might redo it with an less changing system and different weights behind resisting each important type, but for now, I'm done

Edit: Less confusing and better system here: https://pastebin.com/AD6j5bKy
 
Last edited:
When selecting a typing I think it's important to think ahead to the physical/special inclinations of this project in order to see the current ramifications. Specifically, I want to draw your attention to this particular conundrum for the Teleport switch-in we're trying to design.

1. Beating Blissey nudges us toward being physically offensive
2. Beating Slowking nudges us toward being specially offensive OR having effective immunity to burns or Scald

You can see here that this makes it challenging to be able to punish both, so we need to consider the usefulness of various typings with some regard for how the pokemon will play offensively.

Water and Grass would make us resistant to Scald but still prone to burns. This means that these typings are only effective for reliably stopping Slowking if we are specially-oriented or select a burn-proof ability in a later stage.

Disregarding future ability choices, this definitely pushes us toward the special route, meaning our secondary typing should help to solve the Blissey problem. Psychic typing stands out here for giving us a STAB move that can deal good physical damage to Blissey while still being specially offensive. Psychic also has the benefit of making us resistant to Future Sight. Being super-effective on Toxapex, Tomahawk, and Amoongus is very nice too.

Therefore, Water/Psychic and Grass/Psychic should both be considered as typings for CAP28. There are some problems with both of them however. Both are weak to U-turn, especially the latter. Water/Psychic is also weak to Volt Switch, making it ineffective at countering either of the other pivoting moves. Grass/Psychic does have a Volt/Switch resistance, although its weaknesses to Knock Off and Ice Beam means it will still have problems with Zeraora and Krillowatt, respectively. It does have a very good matchup against Rotom-W at least. Both typings are also affected by all forms of entry hazards as well as Toxic, though Grass/Psychic does have a Spore immunity. And an attack with passive healing. But its biggest advantage is actually being able to threaten the Slowbrothers with it's STAB. Thus, Grass/Psychic is probably the better choice despite the nasty U-turn weakness.

Water/Dark and Grass/Dark are similar, but they are probably more mediocre, as they have the exact same weaknesses to U-turn/Volt Switch/hazards/status as described above, without having a STAB option that can target Blissey's weaker defense. I mention them purely because they make CAP28 fully immune to Future Sight, so the standard Slowbrother sets truly cannot touch it. Dark is also a better offensive typing in general and doesn't create a weakness to Zeraora's Knock Off.

If we want to free up our ability to hit Blissey by going physical, then these typings frankly aren't super ideal choices. We would need to solve CAP28's burn problem in the ability stage, at which point we might as well solve the problem by making it immune to Scald outright, which would greatly free up our typing options. Of course, crafting a typing on the assumption that everything will click once it has the right immunity ability is risky, in case we don't end up going that route.



EDIT: I forgot about Dragon being resistant to Scald. Therefore, Dragon/Psychic and Dragon/Dark are other options for dealing with Slowtwins+Blissey or specializing against Slowtwins, respectively, assuming a special attacking focus. While both are still weak to U-turn, Toxic, and all the hazards, they are resistant to Volt Switch, and benefit from a damaging phazing move.
 

MrDollSteak

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
I'm going to be answering the questions slightly out of order and combine others together

c) While resisting as many types as possible is nice, its often infeasible, what weaknesses won't break the bank?

I think this is a good place to start as it ties into previous discussion questions and can inform what we prioritise in terms of both offensive and defensive targets. I think that we don't need to be specifically resist U-Turn, Volt Switch or Scald, but we probably don't want to be weak to them, at the very least multiple of them at once. Future Sight is another move that I dont think is problematic that we are weak to. A Stealth Rock weakness might not be ideal, but because of Heavy Duty Boots is now at its most viable, both because teams can forego running Rocks at the moment simply because they exist, as well as the fact that we can equip them. A Knock Off weakness is another thing that I think we can feasibly have, as many of the pivots that we aim to beat have relatively weak Knock Offs apart from Zeraora, Tangrowth and Astroltol. That said, if we are Knock weak, we probably don't want to also be offensively weak in these matchups.

a) Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that do what we want offensively (beating slowking, mandibuzz, toxapex, etc.) (please cover a bunch).
b) Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that avoid weaknesses to as many offensive threats as possible (Electric, Water, Psychic, Dark, Fighting) (please cover a bunch).
d) What are some unique things we can do offensively and defensively with respect to dealing with pivots and pivot-move users?
e) Are there any final thoughts you have on particular single typings and their relevancy?


I think these are all cool questions but do depend a lot on the exact pokemon we want to hit offensively apart from the Slows and Blissey. As such I will be speaking roughly about what we may want to achieve offensively and defensively in a vacuum, before moving onto specific pairings where I can address their relevancy and unique traits.

As you suggest Toxapex and Mandibuzz are some key pivots to think about that don't rely on Teleport, but we may also want to be able to target other Regenerators such as Astrolotl and Amoonguss that don't carry pivot moves in the same vein as Toxapex, or alternatively some other bulky Pokemon that are commonly brought in by pivots such as Tomohawk or Equilibra, or other faster pivots such as Zeraora. I think as long as we cover a few we'll be okay as I mentioned previously, and as such think there are quite a few different typings that could be successful in this regard by sacrificing some in favour of hitting others. The most key in my opinion are the Slows and as such all of the ones I'm suggesting guarantee super effective coverage against it.

Defensively on the other hand, I think that because we are primarily targeting defensive pivots and as such are less concerned about resisting their offensive options, I think it may be beneficial to tailor our typing to for the most part have favorable defensive matchups against the common stabs of some pivots that may cause us problems such as Zeraora and potentially Syclant so that we can hit them back offensively. That said I don't think we should be focusing primarily on having a defensive typing to withstand offensive pivots, but an offensive typing that hits our defensive pivots.

Electric / Flying

This is currently my favourite typing. I think it brings a strong blend in terms of both offense and defense. Offensively, our stabs allow us to hit the Slows, Tomohawk, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Amoonguss, Tangrowth and Kerfluffle super effectively, while also having good neutral matchups against others such as Blissey and Astrolotl. That said we still have some defined weaknesses, primarily in terms of our offensive matchups, being unfavoured overall against Syclant, Zeraora, Krilowatt and the Rotom appliances for example. Defensively our resistance to Flying and Fighting moves cements our matchups against Tomohawk. In addition, our key resistances to Fighting and Steel moves, as well as an immunity to Ground types, allows us to take on Equilibra, with resistances to Grass, Bug and Fighting also allowing us to matchup positively against Rillaboom and Urshifu who carry strong U-Turns. A weakness to Stealth Rock isn't ideal, but I think it gives us a nice defined weakness either to the Rocks themselves should we forego Boots, as well as to Knock Off should we be running them.

Electric / Psychic

This is a more specialised typing than Electric / Flying above, having some far more pronounced weaknesses, but making up for it in terms of some minor defensive utility and different spread of favorable matchups. Offensively we hit the Slows, Tomohawk, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Amoonguss and Kerfluffle super-effectively, which is slightly worse off than Electric / Flying, but we make up for it with a wider range of neutral matchups, hitting again, Blissey and Astrolotl, but also opening up our ability to hit Zeraora, Krilowatt and the Rotom appliances. Defensively the combination with the Psychic typing allows us to maintain our resistance to Electric attacks making us match up more favorably against Zeraora, Krilowatt and the Rotom forms as mentioned above. We keep a resistance to Fighting and Flying moves while also gaining a resistance to Psychic, cementing our matchups against Tomohawk just like Electric / Flying, but also against the Slows. That said weaknesses to Bug and Dark make our matchups against common U-Turn and Knock Off users such as Toxapex, Mandibuzz, Rillaboom, Zeraora and Astrolotl overall slightly worse defensively, although our strong offensive presence in these matchups should make up for it in many cases. Where we are significantly weaker is against Urshifu. By far the biggest weakness of this typing is its U-Turn weakness, which would seem to be against the concept, nevertheless, I think this is acceptable given our strong matchups against Volt Switch users, Teleporters and more passive U-Turns from say Mandibuzz and Corviknight.

Electric / Fighting

This is an interesting type combination due to its incredible offensive potential. We hit Blissey, the Slows, Tomohawk, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Equilibra, Urshifu, Hydreigon and Ferrothorn super effectively, which is some of the most potent compression in terms of destroying defensive checks. Defensively it isn't particularly slouching either, resisting Electric, Bug and Dark, allowing us to take on U-Turn, Volt Switch and Knock Offs, while also possessing a Stealth Rock resistance increasing our longevity. That being said, a weakness to Psychic and Fairy moves, as well as a neutrality to Flying, does give us some more slightly unfavorable matchups against offensive pivots such as Kerfluffle and Zeraora (if running Play Rough) as well as reducing our ability to stay in on a Future Sight. This is a typing that may be too efficient due to its incredible offensive potential and specialised resistances, but does have some exploitable weaknesses that can keep it in check, particularly its Psychic weakness.

Electric / Bug

This is a very specialised combination that effectively blends some of the elements of both Electric / Flying and Electric / Fighting without really excelling at either. We hit the Slows, Tomohawk, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Tangrowth, and Hydreigon super effectively, while also having good neutral matchups against Amoongus, Zeraora, Urshifu and Kerfluffle. Key resistances to Electric, Steel and Fighting, as well as neutrality on Ground and Flying, allowing us to take on Zeraora, Equilibra and Tomohawk defensively, allowing our offensive moves to overwhelm them. That being said, a weakness to Stealth Rock as well as Fire moves give us a rather unfavorable matchup against Astrolotl, and does make us wary of Knock Off too. This is a typing that for the most part seems outclassed in comparison to some of the types listed above, but excels in key matchups that may allow us to have slightly stronger coverage and abilities in future stages.

Electric / Fairy

This is basically the most optimised dual typing that we can have, basically possessing the strongest benefits of both Electric Flying and Electric Psychic defensively by resisting U-Turn, Volt Switch, as well as Knock Off, while maintain a resistance to Fighting-type attacks. Where it is slightly weaker overall is in its offensive presence against defensive pivots, no longer being able to hit Amoonguss and Tangrowth super effectively. That said its matchup with offensive pivots are significantly more powerful, being able to take on Urshifu, Zeraora, Krilowatt, Astrolotl, Rillaboom, Kerfluffle consistently. My main issue with this typing is its lack of weaknesses, effectively only being weak to ground types such as Equilibra, Smokomodo and Excadrill through typing alone. While it technically achieves everything we could possibly want, it does so too efficiently in my opinion and does not have enough exploitable weaknesses.

Bug / Fighting

This is by far the weakest of the typings I've listed above in terms of just pure offensive potential that still maintains positive matchups against some key pivots we want to beat. We still take on the Slows and Tangrowth as well as Blissey from our stabs alone, but have a significantly worse matchup against Tomohawk and Toxapex, while maintaining neutrality on Mandibuzz and Amoonguss. It is similar to both Electric / Bug and Electric / Fighting overall, in terms of overall matchups though with some minor specialisations. In comparison to Electric / Fighting we give up a Volt Switch resistance, Flying neutrality, Stealth rock resist in favour of a Grass, Fighting and Ground resistance, which allows us to cement our matchups against Tangrowth, Urshifu and Equilibra, while in comparison to Electric / Bug, we are now offensively threatening Equilibra and Blissey far more, while also being less weak to Stealth Rock and Knock Off. Overall this is the typing with some of the most significant and exploitable weaknesses, although I don't think this is necessarily a barrier to being a successful fulfilment of the concept, and may allow us to pursue some more powerful abilities or coverage combinations.

Ghost / Flying

This may come left of field, by being significantly different to the types listed above, but is one with very interesting utility and defined weaknesses. In comparison to the types listed above, we have far less super-effective matchups for the most part, but do have incredible neutral coverage for the most part, as well as a highly specialised defensive typing. We hit Slowking, Tomohawk, Kerfluffle Amoonguss and Tangrowth super effectively which is as little as we can probably get away with, but are able to hit everything else in the tier neutrally apart from Bisharp and Tyranitar. Defensively we have immunities towards Fighting, Normal and Ground allowing us to completely wall Blissey and come in on a range of predicted attacks from strong offensive pivots such as Urshifu and Equilibra. A resistance to Bug also allows us to take on U-Turn fairly well from the majority of users in the tier bar Syclant. Weaknesses to Volt Switch, Knock Off and Stealth Rock are really quite significant, particular in certain matchups such as Zeraora, Astrolotl and Krilowatt. Nevertheless, I think that we can still successfully work around these weaknesses in future stages, as our other strengths can allow us to shine. Against some of the slower more passive Knockers like Mandibuzz, Toxapex and Ferrothorn, Substitute for example can allow us to scout, keeping our item after a hit, and potentially threatening 2HKOs.
 
Last edited:
Okay, I am going to expand on my last post exploring possible combinations of the Psychic typing, but structuring it to be more of a complete resource:

To reiterate, the attraction of Psychic typing is that it enables us to deal solid physical damage to Chansey+Blissey even if we choose a specially offensive route to avoid being hampered by Scald burns from Slowking+Slowbro. Most combinations also make us resistant to Future Sight. It also gives us super-effective STAB on notable bulky pivots--namely Toxapex and Tomahawk.

In designing this table, I have given precedent to the qualities that enable us to beat the Slowtwins. We would hope to fulfill as many of the additional criteria as possible.


EDIT: I don't feel like re-exporting the chart, but the draining moves and possibly the phazing moves are likely irrelevant since the point of these typings is to allow for a special attacker

I'd still say Grass/Psychic gives us the most benefits regarding the core criteria, at the expense of a nasty 4x U-turn weakness, but this analysis reveals several other promising combinations. Dark/Psychic is notable for being the best Psychic combo that's neutral to Knock Off, though it still has the U-turn problem. Electric/Psychic gives us Volt Turn resistance while having a less extreme U-turn weakness. Dragon/Psychic does the same, although we lose super-effective coverage on the Slowbrothers. Fairy/Psychic also leaves us with only neutral coverage against them, but is special for making us take neutral damage from all of secondary moves we'd like to deal with--Volt Switch, U-turn, and Knock Off. Bug/Psychic and Ghost/Psychic both do good damage to Slowking while being neutral to Volt Switch and having normal weakness to U-turn, but are troubled by Stealth Rock and Knock Off respectively.

Again, the above typings would be most beneficial for a special attacker. If we want to go physical and circumvent the Scald burn problem in a later stage, there are other combinations that don't give us problems with U-turn and Knock Off. Because Psychic would encourage a special bias, Grass/Psychic and Electric/Psychic are my personal favorites of the above.
 
Last edited:
a) Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that do what we want offensively (beating slowking, mandibuzz, toxapex, etc.) (please cover a bunch).
I think the most important one to hit super effectively here is slowking and potentially toxapex as without super effective moves these would be very difficult to bring down. Blissey’s passivity means that there are many other ways of dealing with it like taunt, psyshock, setup, etc and so I don’t think it warrants too much concern at this stage and most other relevant pivots could be more easily worn down with neutral hits. Having said this, strong enough SE coverage could also deal with slowking and toxapex, so I think the top priority in typing should be to consolidate what can be switched into and what weaknesses this pokemon should have, as these are issues that cannot be remedied in later stages.

I am cautious of the electric typing, as while it does provide a strong stab to beat mandibuzz, slowking and toxapex it also allows Zeraora to switch in and heal off chip damage. I think most agree for this concept to succeed this pokemon needs to be able to force slowking out reliably so it is unable to teleport or use future sight. If electric moves are required to do this however, Zeraora, another dangerous and momentum gaining pivot is free to come in and nullify any progress, which means this pokemon does little to disrupt opposing pivoting strategies. Additionally, attempting to predict this only opens up the possibility for mind games, although risky allowing slowking to pivot anyway.

For the record, I am not suggesting that we need to beat Zeraora. In fact, as we plan to be effective against slower, passive pokemon it makes sense for faster pokemon to be a source of counterplay. However, I would prefer that rather than completely failing to punish pivoting it should at least cause some decent chip, forcing the opponent to either play more aggressively or passively. In short, one of grass, dark and ghost with something else would be most helpful, particularly for slowking.

c) While resisting as many types as possible is nice, its often infeasible, what weaknesses won't break the bank?
As I stated earlier, I don’t think being beaten by Zeraora is an issue especially as it lacks recovery and it would struggle to switch into any decently powered move multiple times, relegating it to mainly revenge killing. I think in allowing more counterplay from these faster pokemon we are more free to wreak havoc on many of the slower, sturdier pivots and defensive cores that are difficult to punish and force damage on without delayed attacking moves. In other words, weaknesses to electric and fighting as well as ghost and dragon for dragapult aren’t significant issues to me.

So just to actually suggest something, most combinations of grass, dark, ghost, psychic and fighting seem solid at this stage.

I do think a large variety of typings could be supported depending on what others think this pokemon’s role should be and what it should aim to achieve in a game and so I’d be willing to accept wildly different typings to what I’ve suggested here if they provide a clear way of punishing and disrupting pivoting in another way.
 
a) Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that do what we want offensively (beating slowking, mandibuzz, toxapex, etc.) (please cover a bunch).

Right now Electric is the standout, for covering many of the bulky pivots, we want to target.
Any combination with Electric as offensive type could be made to work against these mons.
It still has downsides.
It’s notably weaker on the physical side, so dealing with Blissey/Chansey might have to be relegated to other stages, if we don’t choose fighting as a secondary typing.
There is also the issue, that Electric is one of the Types with the most widespread immunities and resists against it. Most notably these are Zeraora and Equilibra but also include Astrolotl, grass pivots and some other less used mons.
So having a means to bypass these immunities and resistances might be necessary to not fall prey to the biggest strength of pivoting strategies, being that the best check to a mon is often easily brought in without wasting a turn.
I think the best way to ensure this with electric as a first type, would be to have a secondary type, that heavily threatens the slowtwins as well, to force them out regardless of which STAB we choose and which remains at least neutral against some of these common checks to electric type.
Aside of Electric weakness, the slowtwins don’t like dark, ghost, grass and bug.
Bug doesn’t do well against Libra and Astro though, while grass has difficulties with Astro and grass type pivots like among us and Tangrowth.
Dark and ghost on the other hand hit almost all common switch ins to bros neutrally.
Dark is especially notable, as it can annoy pivots even without hitting them hard, by taking away essential items, like heavy duty boots and recovery items, with STAB Knock off and having strong priority in sucker punch, that can lead to the opponent taking two consecutive hits, if the pivot is forced to hard switch, helping in wearing down the switch ins.

b) Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that avoid weaknesses to as many offensive pivot threats as possible (Electric, Water, Psychic, Dark, Fighting) (please cover a bunch).

Interestingly enough Bug/dragon seems like a good contender in the defensive department.
At least if we only look at the Typings mentioned above as it resists Electric, Water and Fighting while pressuring dark and Psychic types with SE STAB.
It’s notable that it suffers from HDB syndrome, which might restrict us from using Substitutes well or setting up in general.

Fairy/Dragon is likely the best defensive answer to all of the above types, being able to tank hits from zera, Astro, Urshifu, Krill and Rotom formes, while still resisting uturn and threatening Tomohawk.
On the other hand it doesn’t offer any real tools, pertaining to typing alone, against the fat pivots, aside from STAB dragon tail. It is also heavily punished by delayed move strategies, since Doom Desire hits super effectively and it doesn’t resist future sight.

Grass/Fairy and Grass/Psychic Share the same ammount of resistances against the above typings.
Grass Psychich suffers from being susceptible to Knock off and even more so UTurn, which are common moves seen on offensive pivots.
Grass fairy does similar things but remains neutral to knock off and uturn.
Both do have tools to deal with different sets of bulkier pivots as well.

c) While resisting as many types as possible is nice, its often infeasible, what weaknesses won't break the bank?

I think Bug as well as rock weakness can be manageable, as the former is mostly seen on weaker uturns, while the second is mostly annoying for stealth rocks, which can be mitigated by other means.
Rock weakness might restrict us from going a substitute/set up route, as leftovers or a boosting item will be harder to fit on a mon weak to rocks.
Other than that, I think we shouldn’t be weak to any other type commonly seen on pivoters although that doesn’t mean we need to resist all of them either.

d) What are some unique things we can do offensively and defensively with respect to dealing with pivots and pivot-move users?

Having some sort of immunity, could be a good way to help us set up substitutes/boosts. For example a ghost type Setting a sub on Blissey, will instantly force it out, as it will not be able to touch it anymore.
Same goes for Poison or Steel types with a big enough Sub.
Blocking future Sight with dark type is another good option.

e) Are there any final thoughts you have on particular single typings and their relevancy?

I think the single most relevant type to this concept is Electric and I think it would be feasible to create a Single Type CAP for once.
I think if we want to consider mono electric, we should look at Zeraora and why it doesn’t take up a similar role as proposed for 28, even though it has many of the tools we are discussing right now.

Edit: Regarding the first, second to last and last question, ice type can functionally work the same way as electric as freeze dry affords a means to bypass water types, that would otherwise wall mono ice, making it only resisted by a handful of steel and fire types.
Ice type although would almost certainly center the project around freeze dry restricting stats ability and move pool stages.
Nevertheless Ice could also have interesting dual typings that haven’t been looked at so far.
 
Last edited:
Okay, I am going to expand on my last post exploring possible combinations of the Psychic typing, but structuring it to be more of a complete resource:

To reiterate, the attraction of Psychic typing is that it enables us to deal solid physical damage to Chansey+Blissey even if we choose a specially offensive route to avoid being hampered by Scald burns from Slowking+Slowbro. Most combinations also make us resistant to Future Sight. It also gives us super-effective STAB on notable bulky pivots--namely Toxapex and Tomahawk.

In designing this table, I have given precedent to the qualities that enable us to beat the Slowtwins. We would hope to fulfill as many of the additional criteria as possible.



I'd still say Grass/Psychic gives us the most benefits regarding the core criteria, at the expense of a nasty 4x U-turn weakness, but this analysis reveals several other promising combinations. Dark/Psychic is notable for being the best Psychic combo that's neutral to Knock Off, though it still has the U-turn problem. Electric/Psychic gives us Volt Turn resistance while having a less extreme U-turn weakness. Dragon/Psychic does the same, although we lose super-effective coverage on the Slowbrothers. Fairy/Psychic also leaves us with only neutral coverage against them, but is special for making us take neutral damage from all of secondary moves we'd like to deal with--Volt Switch, U-turn, and Knock Off. Bug/Psychic and Ghost/Psychic both do good damage to Slowking while being neutral to Volt Switch and having normal weakness to U-turn, but are troubled by Stealth Rock and Knock Off respectively.

Again, the above typings would be most beneficial for a special attacker. If we want to go physical and circumvent the Scald burn problem in a later stage, there are other combinations that don't give us problems with U-turn and Knock Off. Because Psychic would encourage a special bias, Grass/Psychic and Electric/Psychic are my personal favorites of the above.
I would probably make a note for Bug and Fighting that their draining moves are physical, and thus of less use to a special attacker willing to take burns.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I don't want to poll jump too much by getting into this, but there is an inherent problem when you want to 1) Beat Blissey, and 2) Beat SlowTwins, in part by not caring about Scald, so you can actually switch into them.

Point 2) rules out being a physical attacker, unless there is a burn or water immunity, either of which would require the use of the ability stage. The alternative option to satisfy point 2 is to be a special attacker, but that then makes Point 1) relatively hard to satisfy, and forces us to assume a number of other things (Toxic Immunity? Set up/stallbreaking options that let a special attacker muscle through Blissey, such as stopping its healing and not minding Seismic Toss too much?)

I think at this point, in order to be the most flexible, we should focus just on a primary typing STAB that will let us beat the SlowTwins, since that likely needs to be done on typing alone.

Therefore, I believe the CAP MUST have Electric, Ghost, Dark, Grass, or Bug as part of its typing, so that serious damage can be done before they Teleport and gain Regenerator. Without this, we would be almost forced into other ways around Regenerator's passive healing, like Knock Off or Neutralizing Gas, which are very constraining.
It also ideally should not be weak to Future Sight, so the CAP should not have Fighting or Poison typing, unless paired with Dark for the immunity.

I believe any typing that meets these two criteria would enable a feasible CAP to be made that could decrease the viability (and thus usage) of these bulky Teleport pivots. They just may need to do so in very different ways. Once we've locked in typing and ability though, I think we'll be on a reasonably narrow track of how to complete the job.

One typing that I would like to suggest is Ghost/Normal

This typing would enable us to 1) Hit SlowTwins super effectively, 2) give Immunity to Blissey's SToss, leaving only status and PP stall as concerns for what we'd need to get around in order to beat it, 3) resist/not be weak to U-turn and Volt Switch, and 4) turn Ghost's weakness to itself into an immunity, so we become a viable option against one of the more offensive pivots, Dragapult.
This typing has neutrality to almost every type, enabling us to tailor defensive stats to pretty much whatever power level we want. It has 3 immunities, to Fighting, Ghost, and Normal, as well as 2 resistances to Bug and Poison, and has only one weakness, to Dark.

These types also open up a range of strong STAB options.
If physical, there's Poltergeist and a range of strong physical options (though most come with recoil), as well as STAB ExtremeSpeed to help get around faster pivots like Zeraora.
If special, there's Hex, which pairs well with the status options often used to break through bulky pivots, as well the possibility of Boomburst's raw power.
 
Hey, so 2spoopy created a cool summary post of a few good typings.

FILL IN SUMMARY QUZIEL

--------------

Resource Development Day

So, we've covered some relevant questions of single typings, so lets move onto broad questions of dual typings.

a) Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that do what we want offensively (beating slowking, mandibuzz, toxapex, etc.) (please cover a bunch).

b) Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that avoid weaknesses to as many offensive threats as possible (Electric, Water, Psychic, Dark, Fighting) (please cover a bunch).

c) While resisting as many types as possible is nice, its often infeasible, what weaknesses won't break the bank?

d) What are some unique things we can do offensively and defensively with respect to dealing with pivots and pivot-move users?

e) Are there any final thoughts you have on particular single typings and their relevancy?


I don't want any explicit typing submissions, but broad overviews are very welcome.

--------------

I'll move onto typing submissions soon, but the more resources we can generate the better (if you make a good one I'll link it in the summary post) (I promise to get the summary done before typing subs open).
a) Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that do what we want offensively (beating slowking, mandibuzz, toxapex, etc.) (please cover a bunch).
Obviously Electric has been mentioned a lot in this thread, and with good reason as it hits a lot of the bulky pivots in the tier, so I want to go over a few of the Electric typings that really shine offensively:
Electric/Flying - This is my favorite option currently. Electric hits the common bulky mons hard (outside of the blobs), while Flying covers the plethora of Grass types found on pivot teams (Amoonguss and Rillaboom). The only down side to running this typing is the lack of a neutral STAB against Zeraora, but I don't think that's too important given Zera's frailty.
Electric/Fighting - This is pretty tailor-made to hit all the Teleport users and bulky pivots in the tier at the moment. It may struggle against Grass types, but a mon with this typing would have fairly absurd spammable STAB moves. Additionally, this has great coverage in the tier, only being resisted by the two Grass/Poison types in the tier: Venusaur and Amoonguss.
Electric/Ice - Ice hasn't been talked about a whole lot, but it behaves similarly to Flying in that it gives CAP28 the ability to deal with the Grass types that come in on Electric moves. This has the bonus of being able to deal with Zeraora more effectively at the cost of being a very poor defensive type, only resisting itself. In addition, the lack of good or consistent physical STAB moves is concerning considering we're trying to not get walled by Blissey.
Electric/Dark - Pack it up, we're full on removing Slowking from the game! That's essentially what this typing does. Offensively, it hits a lot of the common bulky types super-effectively or neutrally, and STAB Knock Off is always a good thing. I do worry about this type going into Zeraora and Urshifu, but the added Dark type certainly has its merits.

And one that isn't Electric but still gets the job done:
Grass/Fighting - Breloom was a pretty good Stallbreaker back in the day, and the Loom's typing could certainly help us out here. While not hitting Mandibuzz or Toxapex (especially this one) hurts, Grass/Fighting gives us a clear cut way of hitting the two most common Teleport abusers in the tier. Additionally, I think this typing gives us access to some fun ideas like SubSeeding and SubPunching. Y'know, those good ol' Breloom strats.

I also want to mention Bughouse's suggestion of Ghost/Normal as being an interesting way to offensively pressure Blissey and Slowking.


b) Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that avoid weaknesses to as many offensive threats as possible (Electric, Water, Psychic, Dark, Fighting) (please cover a bunch).
Defensively, Dragon does a lot of what we're looking for in resisting the big attacks (Scald and Plasma Fists namely). Dragon also lends itself very nicely to phasing with STAB Dragon Tail. Here are a few combos I think have great potential defensively:
Flying/Dragon - A 4x resist to Grass and normal resists to Fire, Water, Bug, and Fighting alongside a Ground immunity makes this combo very appealing as a catch all to the common pivot mons and offensive threats paired with them. A lack of Electric resist is a little annoying when dealing with Zeraora, but that can be combated with a bit of extra bulk. The weaknesses of this typing aren't super relevant to stopping pivot teams, so it could work quite well.
Grass/Dragon - Here we have a 4x resist to Electric and Water, which are really the two most important types to resist for this concept, and Grass along with a less useful normal resistance to Ground. In terms of beating common pivot Pokemons' STAB moves, this type does it the best. The weakness to U-Turn is not ideal, but isn't a back breaker and comes at a good trade-off. I do worry about this typing offensively, but defensively it really gets the job done.
Bug/Dragon - Bug/Dragon possesses a 4x resist to Grass while normally resisting Ground, Fighting, Water, and Electric. I hadn't really thought about this type until someone else mentioned it in the Discord, but it certainly has it's merits as it covers a lot of our bases. Again, I would be worried about it providing a consistent offensive pressure, but defensively it is quite good, which to be honest is crazy to say about a bug typing.
Fairy/Dragon - Casting a wide net here in terms of resistances, Fairy/Dragon gives us resistances to Bug, Fighting, Dark, Electric, Fire, Water, and Grass along with a Dragon immunity. This typing might be too generically good to make it through, but it should get some consideration as it is the only one to resist at least 5 of the 6 types I think we really should resist (Bug, Dark, Fighting, Psychic, Water, and Electric) while not being weak to any one of them.

And of course, one that isn't Dragon but still could be fun to work with:
Grass/Flying - This might seem like an unorthodox proposal for a defensive type, but it might be time to make it work considering Hidden Power Ice is gone. With a 4x resistance to Grass and resistances to Water and Fighting along with a Ground immunity, this typing does just enough defensively and very specifically targets the common mons on pivot teams. I feel like this is a type that is generically pretty bad but in this scenario could end up doing quite well, which I think could be a lot of fun to work around. Additionally, Grass/Flying allows for this mon to retain an offensive presence.

c) While resisting as many types as possible is nice, its often infeasible, what weaknesses won't break the bank?
I'm going to rate the weaknesses based off of how unimportant I think they are, with Tier 1 meaning that they're totally fine and tier 5 meaning that we should absolutely not have them as a weakness, so Tier 3 will mean that it's ok, just not great.
Tier 1 (totally fine) - Dragon, Flying, Ice, Steel
Pretty simple. These types aren't commonly found on pivot mons except for the odd Syclant or Offensive Corviknight.
Tier 2 (really shouldn't be a problem) - Ghost, Ground, Rock
I included Rock here instead of Tier 1 because Heavy-Duty Boots are a thing but they can get Knocked Off by Toxapex. Also, I did notice that I'm leaving CAP28 pretty weak to Dragapult here, but I don't think he's as big a threat as a lot of the other pivot mons currently being used.
Tier 3 (Would be nice to be neutral but if not that's ok as long as it isn't too many) - Fairy, Fire, Grass, Poison
Fairy is here in case Zeraora players start running Play Rough instead of Knock Off. A Fire weakness might be troublesome with Astrolotl's Fire Lash spam. A Grass weakness would also be not great with Rillaboom in the game. Poison is on here purely because having some immunity to Toxic would be very helpful in dealing with the blobs.
Tier 4 (At most can only be weak to one of these) - Bug, Fighting, Dark, Psychic
Here's where we get down to the types CAP28 definitely shouldn't be weak to. Bug is for the U-Turn spam from Urshifu, Dragapult, Rillaboom, and countless others. A Fighting weakness would leave CAP28 open for Urshifu and Zeraora CC to demolish. Dark again for Urshifu and the plethora of Knock Off users on pivot teams. A Psychic weakness would have CAP28 be forced out by Slowking's Future Sight
Tier 5 (Cannot under any circumstance be weak to these) - Electric, Water
These are types that CAP28 cannot be weak to under any circumstance. Being weak to Electric just means losing to Zeraora which is not an option here. A Water weakness is equally unacceptable, as Scald is a very, very common move on pivot teams, coming from Slowking or Toxapex.

d) What are some unique things we can do offensively and defensively with respect to dealing with pivots and pivot-move users?
I think phasing is a really great idea here. Being able to disrupt the momentum pivoting affords is key to taking it down, and there might not be a better way to do that than phasing. A well-timed Dragon Tail or Roar can completely derail the chain of Volt Switching and Teleporting that pivot teams rely on. Additionally, there hasn't been a viable phaser in CAP for a very long time, so making a good one provides an interesting challenge to the community.

e) Are there any final thoughts you have on particular single typings and their relevancy?
I am still a big fan, though not as much now, of mono Dragon as a potential type here. It's a pretty rare type, with only two fully evolved Pokemon having it, and it possesses two key resistances to Water and Electric, a trait that is only shared by Grass. Additionally, Dragon has access to STAB Dragon Tail, which would be a very useful tool in combating Teleport and VoltTurn spam.
Mono Electric has been brought up a few times, and while an Electric typing does take care of the bulky pivot mons we are worrying about, I don't think Electric is diverse enough by itself in its STAB movepool to warrant consideration, especially given it's lack of strong physical moves (unless Mx is nice and lets us use signature moves). So, for the time being, I think we should lay off that idea.

Current Type Suggestion: Electric/Flying
 
Last edited:

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
Minor post, and copying from a convo on discord, but are there any thoughts on:

"Our Typing should have a positive matchup against many of the slower pivots, and some of the faster pivots"

where:

Slower Pivots = [Slowking, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Blissey, Amoonguss...] (biased towards pivot-move users)

Faster Pivots = [Zeraora, Urshifu, Krilowatt, Dragapult, Syclant, Rotom-Heat, Astrolotl...] (biased towards pivot-move users)

many = at least 2

some = at least 1

I'll stop being lazy and update a summary post up there as well. I was just posting this in response to some posts that are implying we should do everything, which is overly restrictive moving forwards imo.

Editing:
I chose very low numbers because well, its very possible to up them with abilities and I don't wanna be overly restrictive at the typing stage. This is also completely ignoring movepool; you don't need to match up well vs blissey when you can just have 80 attack and focus punch.
 
Last edited:

jas61292

used substitute
is a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
The first couple questions here are mainly just analyzing facts, and a number of people have already gone over those, so I'm not going to reiterate that here. Instead, I want to largely address the third question

c) While resisting as many types as possible is nice, its often infeasible, what weaknesses won't break the bank?

As others have mentioned, Water is something we absolutely cannot be weak to. Scald is the most threatening attack from our top target, and being weak to it makes it next to impossible for us to do what we want to do. And, while I originally mentioned in this thread that I didn't think Psychic was as threatening, discussions since then have made me change my mind. The simple fact is that metagames do not stay stagnant. We may be able to deal with Future Sight, even with a weakness to it, but if it becomes more necessary for their success, Slowking and Slowbro could start running Psychic or Psyshock. And if they do, that is a huge issue for us if we are weak to it. So I think Psychic, like Water, is crucial to not be weak to.

So, to address the question, what weaknesses are fine for us to have? Honestly, pretty much anything else. Per the concept assessment, we are targeting Teleporters, and we want to be able to deal with some other pivots as well, but we have not determined any one particular group to focus on. As this is the case, I don't think there is any type that, by itself, is a bad weakness. Some people have pointed out types such as Bug, Electric, Dark and Rock as things we don't want to be weak to, but I don't actually believe that any of these types, in isolation, is a bad weakness.

Weakness to Bug means weakness to U-Turn, but there are only a few good U-Turn users in the current metagame. Personally, beyond the Teleporters, I would love to see us target other bulky pivots, among whom only Mandibuzz utilizes this move. And even if we don't want to go for the bulkier pivots, even with a bug weakness, we can still target Zeraora and other Volt Switch users.

Weakness to Electric, on the other hand, means weakness to Volt Switch. But, just as with Bug, there are only really a few major users of that move. And again, there are entire groups of pivots we would be able to target that do not use Volt Switch. We are more than capable of completing this concept without targeting those few pivots specifically.

You'll see a similar story to those above with other types. Not wanting a Dark weakness, for instance, is all about wanting to avoid Knock Off. But Zeraora is not a target we necessarily need to check, and something like Toxapex does not pack any power behind its Knock Off, and so can be dealt with even with a Dark weakness.

So, with all that said, I would again reiterate that I do not believe that there is any one type, other than Water and Psychic, that we need to avoid being weak to. Instead, I would simply recommend not being weak to both Electric and Bug. Either one by itself is fine, but being weak to both Volt Switch and U-Turn would drastically limit our non-Teleport targets in a way that a weakness to one or the other would not.
 
Minor post, and copying from a convo on discord, but are there any thoughts on:

"Our Typing should have a positive matchup against many of the slower pivots, and some of the faster pivots"

where:

Slower Pivots = [Slowking, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Blissey, Amoonguss...] (biased towards pivot-move users)

Faster Pivots = [Zeraora, Urshifu, Krilowatt, Dragapult, Syclant, Rotom-Heat, Astrolotl...] (biased towards pivot-move users)

many = at least 2

some = at least 1

I'll stop being lazy and update a summary post up there as well. I was just posting this in response to some posts that are implying we should do everything, which is overly restrictive moving forwards imo.
I think you should up the number of pivots CAP28 has positive matchups against to 3 and 2 for slower and faster pivots, respectively. In my opinion, CAP28 should be strong against most pivot teams, not just a couple, otherwise it might not see meaningful usage and pivot teams will still be dominant as they just adjust to whatever CAP28 is good at. Additionally, it's pretty feasible to up the numbers given the similarities in type weaknesses for the slower pivots and the general frailty of the other ones, besides Krilowatt and Rotom.
 
c) While resisting as many types as possible is nice, its often infeasible, what weaknesses won't break the bank?

I dont think fighting weakness is a major issue for us. While Zeraora uses it, it still loses to many mons with fighting weaknesses, for instance Equilibra will often switch in, Kyurem can always tank PFists into CC and threaten back, and Urshifu and Colossoil can come in on PFists and then beat it with priority before it can attack them. Plus Zeraora is popular, but its only one mon. There are other pivots that we can choose to target instead and still succeed in this concept. So to me, a Fighting neutrality or even weakness (if the typing has enough other cool benefits) is a-ok.

The typings Ice, Steel, Rock, Psychic, Ground, and Fairy are all unlikely to be used by our targets and in the case of Psy and Steel are usually delayed attacks, giving us a turn to get something done. Rock is the most questionable thing on the list, thanks to SR but I think its workable.

b) Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that avoid weaknesses to as many offensive threats as possible (Electric, Water, Psychic, Dark, Fighting) (please cover a bunch).

There are so many typings listed above so Im going to try and share the ones that havent been mentioned much yet, in bullet points (main draw of the typing as the first point(s)

Fire/Grass
  • the only non-Scald weak typing that hits Slowtwins SE and cant be burned naturally, freeing up the ability to go physical
  • U-turn neutral and volt resistant, without running into many issues getting hit SE by our targets
  • overall great offensive typing and strong against most of our targets- power can be boosted further by weather
  • hazard weak
  • doesnt naturally answer Astrolotl and hit SE by Amoonguss
Water/Ground
  • volt immune and U-turn neutral without Scald weakness
  • excellent anti-Kril (and generic anti-elec) typing, and overall unable to be hit SE outside of Tang, Amoong, and GK Zera
  • good offensive typing for our threatlist, also can have power boosted by weather. threatens Pex, Libra, Astro heavily
  • doesnt hit Slowtwins SE
Psychic/Fighting
  • excellent(!!!) offensive typing that has the freedom of going fully special with STAB moves to break Chansey/Blissey
  • psychic typing that is not weak to u-turn or knock off. not threatened SE by any of our targets outside of Tomohawk
  • doesnt even manage to hit Slowtwins neutrally with either STAB
Dark/Ghost
  • not hit SE by any of our targets, and Ghost typing gives an immunity to damage from Bliss/Chans
  • threatens Slowtwins with both STABs, and overall good STAB combo
  • has issues with Mandibuzz and to a lesser extent Urshifu/Hydrei
  • low power or unreliable dmg on STAB moves
Bug/Fairy
  • good resists to offensive pivots like Urshifu, Zera, and Colossoil
  • threatens Slowtwins SE
  • resists U-turn, Knock Off and neutral to Volt Switch
  • struggles with Libra and Toxapex
  • hazard weak

These are intentionally not the top-tier typings that have been flying around. I know there has been some call to start a little less strong, so here's my take on that.

On the topic of " Our Typing should have a positive matchup against many of the slower pivots, and some of the faster pivots ":
I think this is an okay way to look at it. The slow targets that we have pair up nicely with some more offensive targets like Dragapult and Zera and this might lead to getting stuck in the vortex of pivoting between target and counter. There are some ways out of this that can happen outside of typing (for instance, Kril can unvortex itself by tanking a hit with ungodly bulk, and Rilla can unvortex itself by hitting faster mons like Kril with priority). That being said, completely ignoring the offensive teammates that somewhat enable our targets by giving them free switchins would be an oversight, and having tools for at least 1 of the common pivot pairings at this early stage will free us up down the line.
 
Last edited:

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
is a Top CAP Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
First of all, let me bring up a serious flaw in 2spoopy4u's chart: he significantly over-prioritizes Zeraora, particularly early in the formula. Not only so, he accounts only for the coverage Zeraora currently runs most commonly; he favors types weak to Fire over types weak to Fighting, when Zeraora could switch from Close Combat to Blaze Kick with only marginal loss of coverage, especially in a metagame where Sun is not particularly difficult to have up. In fact, a typing weak to Fire is also at more risk of being Fire Blasted by Slowking, so I can't envision a scenario in which avoiding Fighting weakness matters more than avoiding Fire weakness.


Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that do what we want offensively (beating slowking, mandibuzz, toxapex, etc.) (please cover a bunch).

it's worth remembering that pivots commonly get used in combinations, so beating Slowking one-on-one is less than helpful if we get hard walled by, say, Astrolotl. This is not to say that we should hit every slow wall supereffectively, that way lies madness and probably a nerf.

I feel a good guideline would be, "be able to break Slowking, Toxapex, Blissey and Mandibuzz, while not being hard walled by Astrolotl or Equilibra." Note the lack of references to Zeraora or other fast stuff--I think the offensive capacity is more important, and the fast stuff tends to not have great defensive ability itself.

Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that avoid weaknesses to as many offensive pivot threats as possible (Electric, Water, Psychic, Dark, Fighting) (please cover a bunch).

Others have already named a great many, but I'll cover the ones I think are interesting.

Water/Electric and Dark/Electric check off the offensive goals listed above, while avoiding weakness to the relevant types (except Fighting in the case of Dark/Electric, but that only affects Zeraora). These would be my top choices.

Dragon/Fairy checks off all the defensive boxes, and despite leaving a bit too be desired in terms of the offensive goals, only a great fool would ever call Dragon/Fairy less than amazing offensively. I'm a bit hesitant to endorse this, not because it doesn't work but because it might be a little better typing than we really need to accomplish our mission. I consider this a second-tier choice for that reason.

Water/Grass is surprisingly potent in terms of how well it does with our offensive and defensive goals. It doesn't resist many things, but it isn't weak to any of the above, and it covers most pivots well while having very clear-cut checks and counters (like Pajantom and Cyclohm).

Poison/Dark covers all the bases, but it should be noted that the type relies heavily on Dark for its overall offensive coverage, and Dark lacks moves with great, sustainable base power, a challenge for later stages. Still an excellent pick.


While resisting as many types as possible is nice, its often infeasible, what weaknesses won't break the bank?

Fighting
, in my opinion, is the least important weakness of the ones highlighted, mostly because it is a feature only of Zeraora and Kerfluffle, Pokemon which offer a wide range of coverage anyway. If we resist the most common Zeraora coverage moves, it is simply enough for Zeraora to mix up which coverage moves it uses.


Are there any final thoughts you have on particular single typings and their relevancy?

Technically, I believe that both single-type Electric and Dragon fit the guidelines, though not quite as effectively as many of the dual-type combos. Fairy comes very close, failing only to pressure Toxapex but perhaps making up for it by perhaps checking Urshifu (very dependent on stats).
 
I took a hiatus and a lot has happened while I was gone. Interesting concept, congrats Pip!
Solid Concept had some good discussion and gave me some things to think about.
Lets pray I know what I'm talking about.

With a focus on punishing Teleporting Pivots, lets look at some of the key teleports in the metas.
1) The Slows: Basically Public Enemy #1. Slow+Urshi is the most popular Core right now for a reason.
2) Blissey/Chansey: Less common than Slows but still a threat to consider. Thankfully wish+teleport is illegal (for now). It only has 1 weakness and special bulk is to thicc so dealing with these is more about physical attack pressure than fighting moves, sub, disruption moves, and Leech Seed!
3) Clefable: I don't care if its banned from CAP right now. Clef should be unbanned and Im considering it to be on the table for a Teleport Pivot we should try and punish. Looking towards the future of the meta rather than the present.

There are also the offensive pivot moves U-turn, volt switch, and Flip turn that I think should be looked at to.

I think having a STAB super effective move on Slows/Clef is very important to me offensively while defensively, resistances/immunites to U-turn, Future Sight, Volt Switch, and Scald would be nice.

Typings that try to get the best of both worlds:
1) Electric/Dark: Immune to Future Sight, hit slows with either STAB for Super effective dmg, resistance to volt switch, and its a cool typing to explore. Problem is your weak to Moonblast and weak to U-turn. So optimal for a good amount of things, but bad against the other targets.

2) Electric/Flying: Resist U-turn, hits slows for super effective dmg are nice qualities. But thats about it.

3) Grass/Steel: Its Ferro typing so def pretty amazing with good offensive pressure for what concept is looking for. Hit slows and Clef with STAB Super Effective move, resist volt switch, resist flip turn, resist Future Sight, immune to poison, and SR resist.

In relation to concept assessment, Ill go through each point.
1) Offensive Pressure: That related to Super eff STABs and coverage. Electrics sticks out hitting slows+pex super effective while giving a volt switch resist. For Blissey, fighting type means less, physical attacks are way more important.
2) Sub: No type sticks out to me except Fighting or grass because Sub Punch and Sub Seed sets. Shoutout to Poison Heal Breloom sets that did both. Sub, spore, Leech seed, Focus Punch was fun stuff.
3) Phazing: Fighting and Dragon Typing are the big ones due to Circle Throw and Dragon tail. But I don't like these typings. Both make you fairy weak and fighting is weak to future sight. But the utility matters more than dmg or coverage.
4) Disruption moves (taunt, encore, etc.): nothing comes to mind. I guess Dark because prankster immune?
5) Priority: Revan actually does this really well. Espeed for power and revenge killing other priority but I don't like normal typing for this CAP, Sucker Punch is unreliable especially against passive mons like Blissey, Grassy Glide only if Grassy Terrain is a thing, most other priority is kind of weak unless it has an amp or comes off a really high atk stat.
6) Draining Moves: Leech Seed, Leech Seed, Leech Seed. I love this move a lot. Like in Sub, Grass or Fighting are the big typings but also Bug because Leech Life. Actually, yveltal is coming in DLC 2 right? So maybe Oblivion Wing is on the table?
7) Resilience to Passive Dmg: Steel is the big typing here. Resist SR, immune to toxic and no sand dmg. Flying Type are immune to spikes/tspikes but weak to SR.
8) Type Immunities: Dark for Future Sight Immunity is the big one that stands out the most. Immune to Future Sight against Slows is so key. Ground is also great against Volt Switch but your weak against water.
 
b) Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that avoid weaknesses to as many offensive pivot threats as possible (Electric, Water, Psychic, Dark, Fighting) (please cover a bunch).
  1. Fairy/Psychic (resists both Psychic- and Fighting-type moves)
  2. Dragon/Grass (resists both Electric- and Water-type moves)
  3. Electric/Grass (resists Electric-type moves)
  4. Fairy/Fighting (resists Dark-type moves)
  5. Fairy/Poison (resists Fighting-type moves)
  6. Psychic/Steel (resists Psychic-type moves)
  7. Dragon/Water (resists Water-type moves)
 
a) Broadly looking over available dual typings, what are some that do what we want offensively (beating slowking, mandibuzz, toxapex, etc.) (please cover a bunch).
Wanted to cover a type that hasn't been said previously, so I don't have a ton of additional options. I strongly agree with some of the posters above on the benefits of some of the Electric and Psychic options already listed.

  • Grass/Ice - I was surprised not to see this mentioned already, as from an offensive perspective this type has a number of benefits. In terms of SE STAB, this hits Slowtwins, Tomohawk, Tangrowth, Mandibuzz, Dragapult, and Amoonguss. Neutral power on Toxapex, Astrolotl, Krillowatt, and Zeraora. Reliable physical options out of Grass along with draining moves, and strong contenders on Ice to cover.


c) While resisting as many types as possible is nice, its often infeasible, what weaknesses won't break the bank?
I also strongly agree with jas61292, that trying to resist both Bug and Electric is unnecessary for this concept. In addition, I don't believe a weakness to Fire is a substantial concern. Astrolotl is the biggest threat on the list that carries fire moves, but we also cannot cover every pivot and the other major options we want to stop do not frequently carry it.
 

Rabia

GOAT MAN GOAT MAN
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP Co-Leader
I do want to reemphasize I point I made over Discord: attempting to check/counter quite literally every pivot in the game is impossible and is a bad mindset to try and decide a typing with. It was mentioned briefly here, but many of these pivots do have flexibility within their movesets to where you could configure this CAP's typing to stonewall the current dominant set, i.e. have it resist Electric, Fighting, and Dark so it counters Zeraora, but this disregards Zeraora's access to other moves like Blaze Kick for instance. The goal should be to resist a few key typings and simply not be weak to a few others.

Electric / Fairy is a typing that interested me a fair bit, giving CAP 28 inherently good matchups against a wide variety of the common pivots; it can super effectively hit Mandibuzz, Toxapex, and the slow brothers with STAB moves, and it has a fine time with offensive pivots like Zeraora, Dragapult, and Urshifu-S. It does have a bit of a time with Equilibra and Amoonguss, though.

Water / Ground was another typing I thought could be cool. It doesn't offer resistances aplenty like Electric / Fairy but instead dramatically decreases the amount of weaknesses to a sole one: Grass. This would leave it vulnerable to random Grass-type coverage and compromise its ability to switch in to options like Urshifu-S, Dragapult, and Syclant, however, unless bulk sufficed.

Electric / Flying is another typing that sounds pretty fun; we've seen the success Zapdos has had across generations, and I think CAP 28 could replicate that easily. Resisting Fighting and Bug is pretty nice, and the lack of an Electric weakness is cool too. It also would give us something that straight counters Equilibra and exerts an immense amount of pressure against the slow brothers and other Regenerator friends like Tangrowth and Amoonguss. The only prevalent issue I sort of see here is with Blissey/Chansey if you believe a Toxic immunity is necessary, which I don't.

I also think Grass / Dragon could be fun if CAP 28 goes in a more offensive route, resisting Water, Electric, and Ground and threatening most bulky Water-types, Astrolotl, and Equilibra. The only issue I really see with it is there's not a lot of pivot potential when it comes to the common U-turn users, particularly Dragapult, so maybe that'd drive some away from this typing combination.

Lastly, I want to throw out Grass / Poison out there; this typing gives CAP 28 an immunity to Toxic, a resistance to Electric, Water, and Fighting, and a good matchup against several common pivots, bulk pending.

---

With respect to types that we could be weak to and not suffer too heavily, I think Bug is up there. Syclant is really the only thing I think of that can truly make the most out of U-turn as a source of damage, and while taking extra from Urshifu-S and Dragapult as they pivot out isn't ideal, I don't think it'd be the end of the world. I also don't think a Steel weakness would be the absolute end of the world, although I'm not sure how likely would even is to crop up given the Pokemon most people want answered don't really have the ability to justify Steel-type coverage.
 
Another typing we should consider is Dark/Fighting. It has SE STAB on both Blissey and the Slowtwins, and Dark turns a would-be weakness to Future Sight into an immunity. Furthermore, it isn't weak to ANY of the other big moves we've discussed (Scald, Volt-Switch, U-turn, Knock Off, or Stealth Rock) with the last two being resistances (with a double resistance to Knock Off). It is 4x weak to Fairy but I don't think that's a big problem at the moment, since none of the bulky pivots we want to switch on really use Fairy moves (though it would absolutely be a deal breaker if Clefable gets freed). IMO the biggest issue with Dark/Fighting is that its attacking moves tend to have problems with consistent, long-term damage. On the physical side, Knock Off is weak after the first hit, and on the special side, Dark Pulse is only decent and the Fighting moves suck. This is something to remember for all dark and fighting combos TBH. No SE STAB on Toxapex is also not ideal.

Now, onto the main post.

I have gathered all the typings that have been mentioned so far and put them in a table for greater ease of comparing their strengths and weaknesses.


EDIT: current mistakes that I will fix later-- Electric/Psychic weak to U-turn


A few notes on this table:
  • I gave a positive score for "Tools Against Blissey" for anything that had Fighting STAB, Seismic Toss immunity, or STAB Psyshock. I gave no negative scores for this category because anything could hurt Blissey if we make it physically offensive, but the above tools provide extra oomph or free us from the physical constraint.
  • For the match-up section, I only included bulky pivots. They are the main ones we are trying to neuter/switch in on, they are defensive so SE attacks are more important for beating them, and they are less likely to throw curveballs in the form of coverage moves
  • Note that this only shows whether we have super effective STABs on the selected matchup. It does not consider whether they are able to threaten us.
  • The intention of this table is not necessarily to identify the type combinations with the fewest weaknesses or most resistances, although these are nice. Our better strategy is probably to settle on some absolute requirements for CAP28 (Must we have SE STAB on Toxapex? Must we not be weak to both U-turn and Knock Off? Must we resist Future Sight?) and then this table will allow us to eliminate and zoom in on combinations accordingly.
Let me know if you notice any mistakes, if I missed any proposed typings, or if you think there are any important columns that I should add.
 
Last edited:
I didn't really see it come up, but a couple typings that I thought were rather interesting are Steel/Dragon and Ghost/Dragon.

Through the Dragon typing, both of these typings provide us with STAB Dragon Tail, as well as a resistance to both Water and Electric types. As a Mono typing, it provides this with only weaknesses to types like Ice, Dragon, and Fairy, which shouldn't be *too* big of a deal.

In addition to the aforementioned Water/Electric resistances, Steel/Dragon adds resistance to Psychic, Rock, Bug, as well as total immunity to Poison. Offensively we don't gain too much beyond covering Fairy/Ice. Likewise, we do take a hit from a Fighting weakness.

Once again, on top of the Water/Electric resistances from a Dragon typing, Ghost/Dragon adds total immunity to Fighting and Normal, as well as resistances to Bug and Poison. The downside here is that we take 2x effectiveness from the Dark Type (Knock Off, Mandibuzz, etc.) Offensively, we gain STAB against the Slowtwins, put pressure against Blissey, and we would put ourselves in a weird situation against Dragapult considering both STABs are effective against themselves.

I believe it is also worth mentioning that both Steel and Ghost also provide us with Strong STAB Priority through Bullet Punch and Shadow Sneak respectively.
 
Last edited:

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
Last edited:

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
So, now that we have a few resources made its time for:

Typing Submissions are now open

So, y'all know how this goes, submit typings clearly, explain exactly how they interact with pivots, and why they're nice in general. I want y'all to answer the following:
  • What defensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against (at least 2 from typing alone)
  • What offensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against (at least 1 from typing alone)
  • What general defensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats
  • What general offensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats
  • What general attributes does this offer (non-pivot threats, SR, unique stuff)
One final thing, lets go for typings that are uniquely suited to this concept as opposed to just generally amazing, as that'll give us more power later.

Edit:
You're not limited to one sub, but clearly explaining what advantages you give to the concept, and how your typing is focused for the typing is something I want out of y'all.

Remember, we ain't trying to beat every threat in typing, just enough to give ourselves an identity, and we got a lot of room in ability, stats, and movepool to expand the list of mons we can annoy. I could argue that we should be aiming to beat many pivots with our typing, and nothing more.
 
Last edited:
I've been saying it the entire time and here I am finally submitting it.
Electric/Flying

What defensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against:
Simply put, a lot. This typing has favorable matchups into :Slowking:, :Slowbro:, :Mandibuzz:, :Toxapex:, :Amoonguss:, :Equilibra:, :Corviknight:, and :Tomohawk:. It really only struggles against :Blissey:, :Chansey:, and :Rotom-Heat: but that can be helped through it's ability and moveset later. Electric/Flying is quite strong against the majority of the defensive pivots in the tier, along with being a genuinely good and diverse STAB spread.

What offensive pivots does your typing have an advantage against:

Electric/Flying is also pretty good into a number of the tier's offensive pivots. Having an advantage against :Urshifu:, :Rillaboom:, and :Kerfluffle: is nothing to sneeze at. Resisting Close Combat is no joke amazing for CAP28. Additionally, this typing draws even with
and :Krillowatt: while only having a slightly losing matchup to :Zeraora:(not even sure if Zeraora is a losing matchup, it might end up being even), :Dragapult:, and :Syclant:.

What general defensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats:
Common offensive threats in CAP are surprisingly weak into Electric/Flying. :Jumbao:, :Azumarill:, :Hawlucha:, :Togekiss:, and :Volcarona: have a type disadvantage while the only high-tier offensive threats that succeed against it are :Cawmodore: (which really wrecks it), :Kyurem:, :Excadrill: (inconsitently), :Terrakion:, and :Stratagem:. It's a typing not seen in the tier currently that could really shake up the commonly used offensive threats. It's also a hard type to hit super-effectively by most of the tiers tanks. It additionally boasts a very nice set of resistances and immunities to common attacking types, having a Ground immunity and possessing resistances to Steel, Bug, and Fighting. Only being weak to Ice and Rock, two pretty uncommon attacking types, gives CAP28 respectable defensive potential.

What general offensive attributes does your typing offer w.r.t. all threats:
Offensively, it really only struggles against :Ferrothorn:, :Rotom-Wash:, and :Hippowdon:. Other than those, it beats or draws even with most of the tiers defensive Pokemon. Electric/Flying also provides a great spread of neutral damage across the tier and gives us some interesting options down the road when considering if CAP28 will be physically biased, specially biased, or mixed. Electric/Flying hits Water, Flying, Bug, Grass, and Fighting super effectively, which covers a good amount of the tier.

What general attributes does this offer (non-pivot threats, SR, unique stuff):
Being Electric/Flying does give CAP28 a weakness to Stealth Rock, but this can be easily circumvented. More importantly, it gives us (theoretical) access to Roost and thematic access to Whirlwind, which would support the phasing concepts mentioned during Concept Assessment.

All in all, this whole thread has put out a lot of great ideas for CAP28's typing. I'm excited to see where it goes!
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top