CAP 29 - Part 6 - Defining Moves Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'll first compare Coil + BU vs CM + QD. I don't really think Nasty Plot & SD are that useful. We won't be wallbreaking with only one boost and that leaves us vulnerable.

Physical:
- If we are using Coil, + Accuracy can help with some high power / low accuracy moves (Stone Edge, Gunk Shot, HJK, Megahorn) which will offset for the eventual lack of STAB
- Great moves overall: Earthquake is standard and recoil moves are available for perfect accuracy if we go for Bulk Up, Knock off
- Some niche options for further set-up: Flame Charge for speed, Skitter Smack, Lunge, Brutal Wing for lowering opponents attacks.
- Strongest priority if we need it through Sucker Punch and Extreme Speed (we shouldn't however, our bulk is ought to be enough)
- As said above, most revenge killers are physically based and we will have an hard time cycling us while we boost.
- Less Pokemon with insane physical bulk (like Blissey)
- Power Trip is an option

Special:
- If we are using Quiver Dance, getting speed can be incredibly useful to turn the tables on Pokemon attempting to cycle us. For example, if say Tomohawk attempts to Aura Sphere into Hurricane, we can get faster between the two moves and proceed to recover / get another QD
- Don't care as much about burn
- Strong options with no downsides apart from accuracy (elemental 110 moves), more reliable overall coverage
- Lots of useful moves to spread status, Mystical Fire to reduce Sp Atk
- Stored Power is an option

It's hard to make a call really. I think I slightly favor special because Quiver Dance seems really fun to build around.
I agree with others saying that we should keep it focused on side of the spectrum, it will be easier for us to execute. However I like keeping the option of double-dancing on the table with Coil + Acupressure for example. With our lack of STAB and relative vulnerability to status (compared to Reuniclus for example) I don't think it will be CAP29 main option but it may be useful. Special boost + burn is another way to do it but that's a bit close to Volcarona M.O.

There is also Speed boosting that I have not talked about. I feel it could be really interesting, although hard to balance, to use it. Quiver Dance is the best option because it boosts all good stats but we can also use Rapid Spin for a bit more utility throughout the game. I will make a case for considering Shift Gear because thanks to Color Change we can get a one-time bulk boost through resistances and use our speed for easier set-up (Cosmic Power, Healing, Sub etc.). +2 Speed should be enough to immediately outspeed most non-scarfer if we wish so and in any Neutral --> Resisted CC interaction, Shift Gear is basically a one-time +2 in the relevant Def.

Lastly, Recovery is probably required if we want to come in and out more than once. Wish is probably too slow for our needs so it leaves with regular recovery... or Jungle Healing? I'm very curious about it if we go physical.
 
I'd like to echo the consensus that we should go with a move that boosts both offenses and defenses, specifically with Coil and Calm Mind. With regard to Quiver Dance and omniboosting moves, I'm generally weary; speed-boosting moves are generally very dangerous and difficult to balance. While not impossible, I fear that it unnecessarily complicates the process, as well as being somewhat anti-concept. By moving faster, we give the opponent fewer opportunities to hit us, and in doing so, moreso avoiding interacting with Color Change than working around it. That basically leaves Bulk Up, Coil, and Calm Mind. As Coil is strictly better than Bulk Up, interacts better with Power Trip and Gunk Shot, and is not nearly as dangerous as the speed-boosting setup, it should probably be preferred over Bulk Up. The question then boils down to Coil vs Calm Mind: Physical vs Special. I don't think that we necessarily need to choose one over the other right away, but I may as well talk about each:

Calm Mind: Multiple users have already described the benefits of Calm Mind: Dark Pulse and Sludge Bomb provide great type coverage, with Sludge Bomb able to provide a 30% poison chance that can easily help wear down opposing threats. It likely will let us beat Tomo 1v1, as we will likely have the special bulk to eat a supereffective Hurricane at +1, and recover as the Tomo is no longer able to hit us Supereffectively. Furthermore, the Special Side is able to be functional after a burn, which makes it far easier to build than the physical variant, and lets us more confidently come in and set up on Slowking and Toxapex. In that regard, however, I fear the initial passivity could be problematic for CAP29. Most likely Slowking will be able to shrug off an uninvested Dark Pulse even at +1, especially if it's non-STAB and can Teleport out into an answer. Despite this concern, I feel that Calm Mind is definitely the more straightforward route of the two.

Coil: Although there are some concerns to be had with the physical route, I do think that there are quite a few key aspects of it that make it a more compelling route in my opinion. The main issue many have brought up so far is breaking through Tomohawk, but I'm ok with initially losing to Tomohawk, especially considering that we can threaten to poison it most likely, and Tomo really hates to be poisoned. Furthermore, I find that Coil gives us far more interesting movepool options. Knock Off will provide a solid Dark STAB while also providing its infamous utility and ability to force switches, and Power Trip seems like a great way to capitalize off the 3 boosts Coil provides. In addition, the Defense-boosting aspect also brings Body Press into the picture, which several defensive mons already use even if non-STAB, and will allow this mon to invest its EVs into Defense to increase both its bulk and offensive presence. It does have its weaknesses, such as overcoming Tomohawk and dealing with burns, but in my opinion, I find these attributes to be a more compelling route.
 
Just wanna start off by saying I've loved the discussion here the past few days, especially with this being a new step to the CAP process. Now, onto my initial thoughts and decisions:

We're not getting No Retreat, Clangorous Soul, or Geomancy. Signature moves are already a bit problematic to consider in a CAP process, and realistically none of these three actually work with what we're aiming to do here. None of these moves encourage us to be flexible and play longer games, nor really aim to take advantage of what Color Change does well (or at all).

Coil is going to go in Optional. The community consensus has leaned heavily towards special options, but there has been a good deal for mixed roles, and Coil in particular if physical is an option. Coil itself has a number of upsides, best argued by Quz's and Darek's posts, that give it reason to be considered as an option for this CAP. Note that this is not mandatory: this is a secondary option that can be considered for mixed sets later on, but not something that has to be considered. What I'm about to get into will still be our primary boosting option going forward and the main one to consider.

Now, for something that will be considered: One of Calm Mind or Quiver Dance will be in Required. This is the option that by far had the most community support and a number of very strong arguments in agreement with both special boosting and boosting a defense at the same time. The big question now is which one: there's been some concern that Calm Mind wouldn't be enough and some discussion of Quiver Dance being on the table, and I'd like to hear thoughts on it. Is QD too much, or what we're realistically needing to carve out a niche? Will QD have problematic relationships with what's left to do in this process, notably how it plays with Speed in Stats stage? I'm putting another soft limit of 24-48 hours on this stage of our discussion, depending on how the debate plays out.

Just for a bit of a heads up as to the rest of what the OP defines, after this step I'm planning on looking at the other three categories- most notably Recovery moves, but also exceedingly strong utility moves and damaging moves- after we have our primary, mandatory boosting option. Please hold off on jumping to discussing those quite yet.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Speed boosting should be off the table because of how it interacts with Color Change. if you're boosting firepower and you're also moving before every opponent, then it barely matters if they change your typing when they hit you. They won't have a chance.

Quiver Dance could succeed because of course it can. It's a crazy good move. But its success would have much less to do with Color Change than a successful CAP with Calm Mind would have.
 
I'll just come out and say it that I do not think Quiver Dance is a good option for CAP 29. Not only is it quite restrictive on the stats stage, but it could lead to some pretty ridiculous manipulations of BSR. Additionally, speed boosting would seek to minimize our interaction with Color Change. Would it be strong? Absolutely. I don't even think it would be broken, but in the effort of maximizing Color Change's potential, Calm Mind is our best option.
 
I agree with the above posters regarding QD’s interactions with Color Change. As much as I would love to have a defensively viable QD booster that can wreck shop (seriously, the player in me that loves offense and quick sweeping would adore that), it does have more negative interactions with our concept than CM does. If we’re looking to challenge ourselves—which, let’s be real, a lot of CAP29 is the community pushing the CAP process to extremes to challenge ourselves and further develop how we perceive the process—then I think CM is the better option. It doesn’t invalidate Color Change interactions, and it still keeps up with our strong and bulky special sweeper archetype.
 

MrDollSteak

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
I'll just come out and say it that I do not think Quiver Dance is a good option for CAP 29. Not only is it quite restrictive on the stats stage, but it could lead to some pretty ridiculous manipulations of BSR. Additionally, speed boosting would seek to minimize our interaction with Color Change. Would it be strong? Absolutely. I don't even think it would be broken, but in the effort of maximizing Color Change's potential, Calm Mind is our best option.
While I definitely agree that Quiver Dance will rightfully restrict our stats due to its capacity to get out of control, I don't think it's fair to say it will lead to BSR Abuse or manipulation. If Quiver Dance is chosen as a Required Move, then Spoopy, our Move TL, can appropriately set limits that will ensure that stats cannot be manipulated to go overboard.
 
I'll just come out and say it that I do not think Quiver Dance is a good option for CAP 29. Not only is it quite restrictive on the stats stage, but it could lead to some pretty ridiculous manipulations of BSR. Additionally, speed boosting would seek to minimize our interaction with Color Change. Would it be strong? Absolutely. I don't even think it would be broken, but in the effort of maximizing Color Change's potential, Calm Mind is our best option.
I can agree with your first point, but I'm not there with you on the second. I'm noticing "interact with Color Change" has become something of a euphemism. In practice, it translates to: get hit and take damage. Our bulky setup sweeper will have the bulk to set up, but a successful sweeper must be able to clean house harder and faster than the opponent can punish or cripple it.

My concern is that these early decisions to drag out the number of turns CAP29 spends getting clobbered will bite us in the end (see also: Slow Start discussion). For the record, I am completely aboard with abandoning Quiver Dance now so we can proceed with a better-rounded base speed later. However, there will come a point where we have to stop lowballing in the name of maximizing Color Change interactions. It's a rationale that I can see becoming more and more treacherous as we draw nearer to stats.
 

Birkal

We have the technology.
is a Top Artistis a Top CAP Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
I think there's a convincing case to be made for Quiver Dance that we shouldn't write off so immediately. I have waffled back and forth for weeks on this move specifically for CAP29. Some days, I feel it's such a defining move, that we might not be able to even tell how Color Change works because QD is so all-encompassing. On other days, I worry that CAP29 is going to need some 'special spice' somewhere to find its viability. And I think QD might be that move for us, and it might even potentially have to be that move for us.

Let's consider what we know about CAP29 so far. Color Change has some cool defensive merits, as we've noted in our match-up charts thus far, and will allow us to generate free turns throughout the match to provide the space to setup. But offensively, Color Change really limits us. We have the least reliable STAB of any Pokemon in existence, solely because our opponent is in control of what typing we are. Yes, I do think there are lots of opportunities for us to come in on non-damaging moves, but ultimately that is our opponent's choice, which comes with the package of being a defective ability. Our opponent has "agency" over us, in that they get to choose aspects about our Pokemon, rather than us getting to choose. We can predict how our opponent will act, but ultimately the opponent has control over that interaction. Another nerf is that we don't have the positive bonus of a non-defective ability: CAP29 doesn't get Astrolotl's Regen, Nidoking's Sheer Force with LO, terrain or weather to boost STAB, etc. This is an upstream battle for viability, and at some point we're going to need to splurge a bit in order to find viability.

We also know that our typing is Poison / Dark, which has a lot of great things going for it. One significant disadvantage is that we are SR and Spikes weak, meaning that we don't have an unlimited amount of switch-ins, even if we do get a recovery move down the line. And while we do have some cool switch-in opportunities, especially with a potential immunity to FS, we don't pack a ton of relevant resistances initially either (at least compared to Steel, Flying, or Ground), meaning we're taking at least some damage every time we attempt to switch in. Again, I'm not painting this as doom and gloom, because there are a lot of really unique things CAP29 can do thanks to its ability and typing, but I do want the people that are theorymoning and testing out Color Change to recognize that our current creation isn't all sunshines and rainbows either -- it's going to need some oomph to be viable.

Calm Mind is a good move for us, but ultimately, my main criticism of it is that it's too slow. And I don't mean slow in the context of speed, but slow in the context of momentum. As mentioned above, CAP29 isn't a great pivot (even if it ends up with a pivoting move, it has such bad 4MSS that it might not even run it), and we're not going to be switching in constantly like the best pivots in the meta. So you spend your match using your core(s) to whittle down your opponent and create an opening for your sweeper. CAP29 comes in once you're removed as many of those hinderances as possible, and its first move is to setup CM. Unless we have pretty high base speed, our opponent can leverage that need to setup to switch into a mon that outspeeds and KOs, or outspeeds and impedes us. Even at +2 SpA with CM, we're not hitting super hard if we've lost our STAB, and at that point we need to probably recover HP since we've likely taken damage in those two turns. At that point, we've wasted three turns getting to +2 SpA and SpD and we don't have STAB, so it begs the question: why not use any other setup sweeper? Volcarona and Reuniclus (both C-rank in CAP) have better tools, to the point where I think we're frankly outclassed. And that's not to mention mons that are actual pivots (NP/SD/etc) that can just run a boosting move on the side as a wincon while still performing their role as a pivot.

That's why I think QD is worth considering: we waste less turns overall, and we're more immediately threatening whenever we come in (which is again, limited compared to other viable mons in the meta that can run setup). The turn that we generated with Color Change we can use to QD, making us faster than most options our opponent would bring in. This gives us a chance to act first, which is important with an ability like Color Change where we lose so much agency in the first place. We can use that speed to recover, boost again, use a utility move, go for a 2HKO, use a coverage option, spam a move with good secondary effects, or even just switch out, but we are now in control of CAP29 due to the speed boost, and having options tactically in the middle of a match is what can potentially make a mon viable.

I also don't buy the argument that QD "doesn't work with Color Change." It does align with Color Change, in that we're buying a free turn as our opponent switches out, or uses a different move to change us to the correct typing for SE or neutral damage. The match-up chart and (future) threat lists for CAP29 prove that there are a lot of match-ups we can prepare for in order to manufacture that free turn, and using it to set up QD is absolutely within the bounds of this concept, at least from my perspective. As The Crusade mentioned above me, the goal of working with Color Change isn't necessarily to take lots of hits, but rather to use the momentum the ability can provide to setup and put our opponent in an even worse situation.

It's difficult to determine how exactly CAP29 will function due to Color Change. Even test games and looking at older metas, while a good practice to commit to, ultimately can't tell us what this mon is going to look like in the metagame at the end of the process. I do think we could choose CM and find success potentially, but I'm not thrilled about how few options it offers us the turn immediately after we boost. Setup sweepers need to be aggressive by nature, and we lack that immediacy and agency without speed. That's why I'm currently in camp Quiver Dance, but I do think the other side of the debate is convincing in its own way. I don't know anything more about CAP29 than any of you, since we're building it together, but my gut reaction is that giving CAP29 more options and agency is a better path forward for viability.
 
Last edited:
I agree with the above. TBH I’ve never shared the common opinion here that “working with an ability” means “making the ability do the maximum work possible”.

If we force a switch because the opponent knows they’ll change our typing to resist their coverage, we just worked with our ability. We don’t even need to proc it; its existence bought us a turn we wouldn’t otherwise have.

On top of that, I’d like to remind people that we don’t have to take the good with the bad if the bad can be avoided; in fact I’d say it’s optimal that after we buy us the turns for setup with our ability that we never get hit again if possible, as the ‘mons hitting us will likely have neutral or better coverage, which will just be the bad parts of our ability with none of the good aspects.

As such, we either need to be a fast CM sweeper or a slow QD sweeper. We can’t afford to start slow and stay slow; we’ll take too much damage and give the opponent too much time to maneuver our typing.

Honestly though I still think this ‘mon will have a hard time competing in its role even with QD. For all the talk of switching into FS we really can’t unless we slow switch or perfectly predict their move choice, as otherwise our type changes and we get hit. While our STABs are solid coverage, we don’t have the actual STAB by the time we use them. And while other pokemon have a good ability, we have an okay typing instead of an ability.

As said above, we need to splurge somewhere to make up for those massive downsides. We could give great offenses or coverage to make up for that, but that’s an inelegant solution. I think giving QD would be far more suitable compensation.
 
I think there's a convincing case to be made for Quiver Dance that we shouldn't write off so immediately. I have waffled back and forth for weeks on this move specifically for CAP29. Some days, I feel it's such a defining move, that we might not be able to even tell how Color Change works because QD is so all-encompassing. On other days, I worry that CAP29 is going to need some 'special spice' somewhere to find its viability. And I think QD might be that move for us, and it might even potentially have to be that move for us.

Let's consider what we know about CAP29 so far. Color Change has some cool defensive merits, as we've noted in our match-up charts thus far, and will allow us to generate free turns throughout the match to provide the space to setup. But offensively, Color Change really limits us. We have the least reliable STAB of any Pokemon in existence, solely because our opponent is in control of what typing we are. Yes, I do think there are lots of opportunities for us to come in on non-damaging moves, but ultimately that is our opponent's choice, which comes with the package of being a defective ability. Our opponent has "agency" over us, in that they get to choose aspects about our Pokemon, rather than us getting to choose. We can predict how our opponent will act, but ultimately the opponent has control over that interaction. Another nerf is that we don't have the positive bonus of a non-defective ability: CAP29 doesn't get Astrolotl's Regen, Nidoking's Sheer Force with LO, terrain or weather to boost STAB, etc. This is an upstream battle for viability, and at some point we're going to need to splurge a bit in order to find viability.

We also know that our typing is Poison / Dark, which has a lot of great things going for it. One significant disadvantage is that we are SR and Spikes weak, meaning that we don't have an unlimited amount of switch-ins, even if we do get a recovery move down the line. And while we do have some cool switch-in opportunities, especially with a potential immunity to FS, we don't pack a ton of relevant resistances initially either (at least compared to Steel, Flying, or Ground), meaning we're taking at least some damage every time we attempt to switch in. Again, I'm not painting this as doom and gloom, because there are a lot of really unique things CAP29 can do thanks to its ability and typing, but I do want the people that are theorymoning and testing out Color Change to recognize that our current creation isn't all sunshines and rainbows either -- it's going to need some oomph to be viable.

Calm Mind is a good move for us, but ultimately, my main criticism of it is that it's too slow. And I don't mean slow in the context of speed, but slow in the context of momentum. As mentioned above, CAP29 isn't a great pivot (even if it ends up with a pivoting move, it has such bad 4MSS that it might not even run it), and we're not going to be switching in constantly like the best pivots in the meta. So you spend your match using your core(s) to whittle down your opponent and create an opening for your sweeper. CAP29 comes in once you're removed as many of those hinderances as possible, and its first move is to setup CM. Unless we have pretty high base speed, our opponent can leverage that need to setup to switch into a mon that outspeeds and KOs, or outspeeds and impedes us. Even at +2 SpA with CM, we're not hitting super hard if we've lost our STAB, and at that point we need to probably recover HP since we've likely taken damage in those two turns. At that point, we've wasted three turns getting to +2 SpA and SpD and we don't have STAB, so it begs the question: why not use any other setup sweeper? Volcarona and Reuniclus (both C-rank in CAP) have better tools, to the point where I think we're frankly outclassed. And that's not to mention mons that are actual pivots (NP/SD/etc) that can just run a boosting move on the side as a wincon while still performing their role as a pivot.

That's why I think QD is worth considering: we waste less turns overall, and we're more immediately threatening whenever we come in (which is again, limited compared to other viable mons in the meta that can run setup). The turn that we generated with Color Change we can use to QD, making us faster than most options our opponent would bring in. This gives us a chance to act first, which is important with an ability like Color Change where we lose so much agency in the first place. We can use that speed to recover, boost again, use a utility move, go for a 2HKO, use a coverage option, spam a move with good secondary effects, or even just switch out, but we are now in control of CAP29 due to the speed boost, and having options tactically in the middle of a match is what can potentially make a mon viable.

I also don't buy the argument that QD "doesn't work with Color Change." It does align with Color Change, in that we're buying a free turn as our opponent switches out, or uses a different move to change us to the correct typing for SE or neutral damage. The match-up chart and (future) threat lists for CAP29 prove that there are a lot of match-ups we can prepare for in order to manufacture that free turn, and using it to set up QD is absolutely within the bounds of this concept, at least from my perspective. As The Crusade mentioned above me, the goal of working with Color Change isn't necessarily to take lots of hits, but rather to use the momentum the ability can provide to setup and put our opponent in an even worse situation.

It's difficult to determine how exactly CAP29 will function due to Color Change. Even test games and looking at older metas, while a good practice to commit to, ultimately can't tell us what this mon is going to look like in the metagame at the end of the process. I do think we could choose CM and find success potentially, but I'm not thrilled about how few options it offers us the turn immediately after we boost. Setup sweepers need to be aggressive by nature, and we lack that immediacy and agency without speed. That's why I'm currently in camp Quiver Dance, but I do think the other side of the debate is convincing in its own way. I don't know anything more about CAP29 than any of you, since we're building it together, but my gut reaction is that giving CAP29 more options and agency is a better path forward for viability.
I don’t have much to add here but I believe Birkal is right.
We have to give 29 some more power somewhere and the later we do that, the harder we might have to compensate.
While I am not opposed to a 600+ bst spread in stats or adding literally every coverage option later, it is my opinion, that having the options to go either way is a good thing.
Since calm mind and Quiver dance target the same stat bias, our defensive checks will stay the same.
Choosing between the two will also be choosing how we deal with offensive checks and revenge killing.
Are we going to build a mon, that initially has a harder time to play against offensive threats, but is able to spiral out of control, if it gets the chance or are we going for a mon, that deals with offensive threats from the go, but is going to be easier to revenge kill?
I think this decision should be left open to the creativity of stat subs.
We are definitely able to set different stat limits for different boosting options if necessary.
So I’d say that both options should be on the table going forward.
 
I also don't buy the argument that QD "doesn't work with Color Change." It does align with Color Change, in that we're buying a free turn as our opponent switches out, or uses a different move to change us to the correct typing for SE or neutral damage. The match-up chart and (future) threat lists for CAP29 prove that there are a lot of match-ups we can prepare for in order to manufacture that free turn, and using it to set up QD is absolutely within the bounds of this concept, at least from my perspective. As The Crusade mentioned above me, the goal of working with Color Change isn't necessarily to take lots of hits, but rather to use the momentum the ability can provide to setup and put our opponent in an even worse situation.
That's exactly what I am thinking with Quiver Dance. It allows us to take the one hit we need to take in order to set up and then be in control of what we can do. Sub and recovery (or heck, Refresh) are that much stronger when we are faster than the opponent. Color Change chaining is harder to execute as we have the initiative and you and others said more eloquently, it puts momentum on our side with only 1, 2 Quiver top which Calm Mind may struggle to achieve.

Good initial + Calm Mind achieves more or less the same but Quiver Dance will eventually let us outspeed threats that I don't believe we are aiming to initially outspeed (Dragapult, Tornadus-T) which may abuse Color Change to force us out. Another very minor point is that it's better at increasing Stored Power BP if we elect to go that way.

That's why Shift Gear catches my eye as well but I may be alone on this one if we prefer to go physical. But improving our speed is a way to improve our bulk, if only by grabbing momentum and getting more out of Color Change.
 
Its pretty hard to argue well that quiver dance is broken at this stage, but I'll voice my concern. I think QD is such a strong move that it threatens to become the identity of the project. Quiver Dance fights with Color Change when it comes to being the main workaround off of which the remaining stages have to wrestle with. For example, we said we were looking at being bulky, but a Quiver Dancer with a good initial physical bulk and our typing is just a bad, bad idea. We've been looking at non-trash speed stats to interact best with the list of CC interacts and QD encourages us to go lower than that. The reasons we looked at those initial values were because we felt they worked best with Color Change. Now, QD has forced us to go a different route to dampen its strength. Calm Mind just doesnt run into the same issue. Calm Mind and a good initial speed tier has a lot of the same positive qualities as QD without absorbing the process. And I think we'll learn a lot more about Color Change without trying to double-dip with another rare route.

Id rather see a focused attempt to make a CM Color Change mon with a chance of undershooting/"failure" than to switch gears on the project and go into a QD sweeper that happens to have Color Change. But to be thinking of potential failings at this stage imo doesnt make sense either. Im excited to go into stats stage with a lot to play with, and I think we can more than make up for Color Change by the end of the next stage.
 
Last edited:
I also agree with Birkal. I believe there's a risk with this concept where we are so concerned with not overshadowing Color Change with positives that the end result isn't usable. This concept is supposed to have a negative ability in Color Change, it needs to have something going for it. Quiver Dance is an excellent move choice, it is powerful and will allow for set-up, but the loss of STAB still means that CAP 29 will struggle with offensive pressure more than alternate set-up sweepers.

No matter what, anyone using CAP 29 will have to think strategically about its use due to the ability, and try to find opportunities to turn the negative into a positive. Giving it powerful tools to make the most of the shift in momentum caused by clever use of Color Change is absolutely on concept, and I don't believe it detracts from our objectives.
 
Pipotchi's points on Quiver Dance already mostly summarize my opinion, so this post is mostly just made to agree with them. In particular, I agree with how it threatens to recenter the project around itself, and how we may have to add on additional restrictions on top of the ones Color Change imposes on us. I do see the value of spending some of our power budget now on a strong setup move, and that Color Change has already done enough dampening (lack of STAB, not much utility from ability) that we could afford to use the power from Quiver Dance for a better chance at viability, but even with all of this it is still powerful enough to potentially require even more limits, which doesn't sit too well with me. I think Calm Mind is a perfectly fine alternative that could achieve a lot (though not all) of the same things Quiver Dance could with an immediately faster speed stat (and better stats across the board).
 

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
At this point I feel that Calm Mind is probably enough for us to make a very functional and interesting mon, and Quiver Dance really puts us into a significantly more difficult place, that is, getting ourselves to a point where we're actively having to interact with Color Change to get setup and make process, but still well, balanced is more difficult with the stronger move. As Calm Mind is probably enough for us to really actualize concept, and Quiver Dance gives us a lot more danger (as of now it is still difficult to evaluate how strong Color Change is), I am in favor of the safer option, as we will have more leeway, and making an already difficult concept more so isn't something we need.
 
Alrighty, discussion's dying down a bit, and the community seems particularly split still, so I'm calling for a poll between adding Quiver Dance to the Required list or adding Calm Mind to the Required List.

Quiver Dance has seen the arguments in favor of it be mostly about needing more power. The speed boost in addition to the boosts to the special stats has been pointed to as the additional power we need to start giving CAP 29, mainly through the virtue of improving matchups and making us more immediately more threatening as a sweeper later in games. The arguments against QD have also pointed to that speed boost not interacting well with Color Change by avoiding changing our type, and in general the fear that QD is too much power to give right now, and will dominate the project as it continues. I'd point to Birkal's post as one that best encapsulates the pro-QD argument, and Pipotchi and Kjnjkmjk1's posts to describe counterarguments.

Calm Mind, though on its face clearly inferior, has been argued to have more upsides for us as a process. It has been pointed to as enough to actualize concept, as said by Quziel's post, and will continue to leave open power budget for us later on in stats and moves proper. Opponents of Calm Mind have called it too little and too slow, saying that it forces us to take unnecessary time and momentum to try and setup and fulfill our role. The pro-CM over QD post I'd point to would be the aforementioned Quz's post, and Birkal's and The Crusade's paint a good picture of the counterarguments in depth.
 
Poll is over, and we've selected Calm Mind to be placed on the Required List. That sets us on a good, clear path forward for Stats stage and wraps up our conversation on boosting right now well. Now, onto the rest of this stage, starting with Recovery moves. Do we need recovery? What recovery should we be looking at: consistent 50% recovery moves like Recover? More conditional ones like Synthesis? Alternative forms of healing like Leech Seed or Rest? Everything is on the table for immediate discussion, and I'm excited and curious to hear out the communities thoughts on this subset of moves.

This will have a soft limit of 24-48 Hours.
 
Recovery is a no-brainer here; it's basically been a foregone conclusion since day one that we will receive recovery in some form. Barring some unique exceptions like suicune and magearna, essentially every decent bulky setup sweeper has access to reliable recovery, and it's no less important for CAP29. Consistent 50% recovery allows us to maximise SE => neutral and neutral => resist interactions as well; eg, if something like libra's earth power does 80% to us normally, we can out-recover it as it only does 40%, giving us the freedom to set up. Frankly I think that any option other than consistent 50% recovery will not be nearly reliable enough for us to succeed in our niche, and would only serve to be a secondary option that enables sets like resttalk that are generally less efficient.
 
I agree with spoo in that recovery is an absolutely necessary option. I got approval from SHSP for this, but I'd like to raise the question of allowing Jungle Healing. Considering that we are not going to keep our typing and working with the assumption that Calm Mind/Coil will be the sets we consider for the rest of this process, status, particularly Toxic, is a pretty big concern. While Jungle Healing doesn't have the same potential as Recover to recover through super effective hits, it's interaction with status is notable and deserves some discussion. I'm personally torn on the matter, as Jungle Healing really could be all of broken, balanced, or even anti concept so I'd love to hear y'alls thoughts on the matter.
 
Unconditional 50% recovery is a no brainer here imo. Being able to reliably recover lost health is very important for a slow but steady set up. It also allows for more aggressive play as a defensive pivot early game, letting us switch into stuff we wall, to take pressure off the rest of the team, while still staying healthy enough for a sweep.
Atm I see unconditional recovery as better, than leech seed or weather dependent recovery, but I could be convinced otherwise.

I also want to bring up Strength Sap for consideration.
Yes it is an incredibly powerful move and we have to be very careful giving it out an with how we handle it if we do.
But it uniquely has plays into Color Changes strengths, letting us recover and “set up” at the same time.
It would be a distinct move, that will help set 29 apart from other Calm Mind users and given how much more power budget we still have left, compared to say :Clefable:, which has a good typing, a lot of powerful move options AND a stellar ability, I think we can manage this move considerably well.
 
Agree on recovery, and since this is defining moves I believe 50% recovery is the quintessential defining move for us. Leech Seed, Pain Split, draining moves, and other niche/weird options are all fine to stay up in the air when movepool comes around, but right now the thing that should get locked in as a defining move is 50% recovery which pairs the most reliably with calm mind boosting. I'm also leaning towards saying it should be a static 50%, as there doesn't really seem to be a need to hold ourselves back in this area yet with a conditional 50% move- but if this is something that can be chosen between later during movepool then im totally fine with that.
 
I think that we absolutely need some form of recovery. As 2spoopy4u mentioned, one of the ways we have discussed leveraging Color Change involves taking neutral or super effective hits, with Color Change then changing the type effectiveness of these moves so that we will take less damage on subsequent hits. The crux of that interaction involves being able to recover the damage off, and with more immediacy than something like Leftovers.

For this reason, I think the best options for recovery are consistent 50% recovery moves. They provide immediate healing that makes the previously mentioned interaction possible, in addition to the sheer reliability of always getting 50% back.
Conditional 50% healing like Synthesis are similarly helpful because most of them provide 50% recovery most of the time, although their lower PP and unreliability in weather makes them generally inferior. Shore Up is the obvious exception, but I don't think it's necessary to reach for it when "regular" consistent 50% recovery moves like Recover and Slack Off will more than suffice.
I'm a bit shaky on Leech Seed. While it's very good at buying us switches and/or free damage on our opponents, and can give us some utility outside of just being a setup sweeper, its healing is relatively low and is easily removed via switch. I could potentially be convinced, as the ability to force switches gives us more opportunities to set up, but I worry that the low amount of healing will simply be outdamaged in too many cases for Leech Seed to be particularly useful.
Rest is an interesting way to both deal with the status problem that is inherent with setup sweepers, and it has seen success on the famous Crocune set (Rest/Sleep Talk/Calm Mind/Scald) before. Of course, there's the inherent flaw of Rest leaving us helpless for a few turns without Sleep Talk or a Chesto Berry. Chesto Berry is rather unreliable and is one-use only (in addition to having the oppoortunity cost of not using a different item), and RestTalk corners us into a single attacking move, which is a somewhat scary proposition given the number of Pokemon that could take advantage of us being asleep to come in and start landing hits.
Pain Split is interesting in terms of being able to damage the opponent while healing yourself. Ideally, the interaction would be to steal HP from the opponent to both heal yourself and put them in a less comfortable spot to take your boosted moves. However, its unreliability (you could potentially lower your own HP instead, or heal miniscule amounts even with very low Base HP) compared to consistent 50% recovery makes me shaky on this option as well.
Strength Sap is an absolutely absurd move that also happens to synergize very well with Color Change's desire to take hits and make repeated ones hurt less, and our main role as a setup sweeper. Not only would the first few usages be full (or close to full) heals in a lot of cases, the lowered attack would provide us more opportunities to continue tp set up (since we are taking less damage if they stay in and can also take advantage of them switching out). However, having both an effective full heal and ability to soften blows further in one move might be a bit much and could constrain future stages, in a similar way that Quiver Dance was predicted to.
Jungle Healing only provides 25% healing, but comes with the added bonus of healing status on the user, which could potentially be huge. I have mixed thoughts on this one; on the one hand, it solves our status problem without leaving us helpless like Rest does, or taking up an extra moveslot like a status healing move would; on the other hand, the 25% healing will most likely not be enough to outheal non-resisted damage, which restricts our ability to leverage Color Change against certain strong attacks. I don't think it's anticoncept, but whether it's stronger or weaker than 50% recovery is harder to determine. If this Pokemon becomes more specially focused than physically focused, I could actually see Jungle Healing being inferior to 50% recovery in some cases, as status healing is less important (though still useful). Burns don't matter much, the opponent needs to go out of their way to Toxic us and we may be able to simply sweep at that point, and paralysis is potentially very annoying but not so much as to mandate a status healing move. A physically oriented CAP29, on the other hand, would appreciate a way to deal with burns without having to further boost, and with sufficient bulk could prefer Jungle Healing.
Wish also provides us added utility to our team while also healing us for 50%, but it's simply too delayed and either necessitates Protect (an extra moveslot gone) or us taking a second hit (in which case it may be too late). For CAP29, I think it's strictly inferior to consistent 50% recovery.

I wrote all of this just to say that I agree with everyone who has posted so far: 50% recovery moves are our best bet and should be added to the required list. The rest I'm currently undecided on, but they present an interesting range of alternatives to the tried-and-true consistent 50% recovery, and could be considered for the optional list. My current position is that we should probably just stick to consistent 50% recovery in required and not add anything else to optional, but I'm open to arguments for the listed options.
 
While Strength Sap is a very relevant move to our Color Change synergy, it goes against the whole "Bulky Setup Sweeper" thing into a "Bulky Setup Wall." Strength Sap would heal us and buff our defense while Calm Mind would buff our special defenses. If this is a direction we want to go in, then by all means allow Strength Sap. But if this is the wrong direction, we should probably look to either 50% recovery move or Special Draining Attacks such as exactly Giga Drain.

And between those two, Giga Drain just doesn't look reliable enough to keep us fueled, especially since when it does turn into our STAB via Color Change, its against another Grass type who will resist it. We might as well just go for a 50% recovery move.
 
Out of all recovery moves, only Strength Sap, 50% Recovery and Jungle Healing seem strong and reliable enough for our purposes. Leech Seed doesn't allow us to keep topped-off, instead providing some residual healing that will not allow CAP29 to sustain the burst it will probably come under. We may need to take 60%+ hits (thanks to Color Change) after all. Wish is just too slow to properly set-up, Drain moves need too much set-up to heal us enough, Rest is interesting but will leave us very susceptible to cycling, especially when we are not Suicune with a decent mono-STAB and Pain Split, while interesting, has been proven again and again with Rotoms that it is not always enough and will force us into lopsided stat spreads.

I like the concept of Strength Sap but I must agree it might be too much for our concept and I think even more than Quiver Dance would have been so it's another no for me. Jungle Healing is something else. 25% is really not that much but status healing is very nice and we could combine it with draining moves for more sustainable healing. I'm a bit grasping at straws here because 50% recovery is just the better all-around option here and still keep us flexible for later stages.

One little point: Roost in particular seems kinda funny for the very rare interaction when we are Flying. That's ultra-niche but that's another layer of Typing confusion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top