CAP 29 - Part 6 - Defining Moves Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

Zetasniper

Expect nothing, deliver less
is a Pre-Contributor
Joining the consistent 50% recovery parade; spoo hit the nail on the head out the gate. This will be a very important tool in allowing 29 to work with it's ability without being pressured into oblivion. Not much else to say that others haven't, very solid stuff all around.

Something I don't like however are the more niche healing options being brought up, particularly Jungle Healing & Strength Sap. Jungle Healing's primary use to use is that of status clearly, which would be very helpful on a physical set-up set, is less so on the special side. While clearing a para or errant toxic after we've CC'd is always useful, it simply lacks the hard numbers to keep 29 going like consistent recovery can. In the same vein, despite Strength Sap's ability to offer another form of 'pseudo-set up', it is far from being as consistent as some make it out to be. While the potential healing can be massive, it's not something that can be played for the long game. This isn't even mentioning how match-up dependent the move can end up being. While strong physical attackers are plentiful, they're far from the only things 29 will find itself squaring off against. I don't think it can be understated how valuable consistency will be for this CAP, especially given our uniquely volatile ability. While these moves have their niche uses, I simply can't endorse them for the purposes of this project. (also can we chill with wanting to give this thing every sig move under the sun plz, lol)

As for others mentioned like Pain Split, Leech Seed and Rest, I feel they all tend to fall under the same umbrella of the former options in that they are simply unreliable for our purposes. Resttalk is slow and can be quite the momentum drain, while also reducing the amount of moves we can realistically run. Leech Seed is an interesting form of offensive pressure, but like Jungle Healing I think it simply fails to gets us enough raw healing to be worth it. Pain Split is much the same in that regard though it does offer some good match-ups against certain staples like Blissey. All in all I'm not too fussed about these options but I think sticking with our consistent 50% guns is the way to go for now, though they may be interesting tech picks later on in movesets.
 

Rabia

GOAT MAN GOAT MAN
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP Co-Leader
Honestly, I'd be fine with Strength Sap being given to CAP 29, especially given the special-leaning route seems very settled on at this point. I definitely understand the worry of a lack of consistency, but I also value the extra utility in being able to somewhat cripple physical attackers like Rillaboom, Melmetal, and Barraskewda with the Attack drop. Certainly a move like Recover would be objectively better, but I don't think it's worth completely throwing out as unreliable and poor.
 
Strength Sap's ability to offer another form of 'pseudo-set up', it is far from being as consistent as some make it out to be. While the potential healing can be massive, it's not something that can be played for the long game. This isn't even mentioning how match-up dependent the move can end up being. While strong physical attackers are plentiful, they're far from the only things 29 will find itself squaring off against.
The thing here is you are underplaying how consistent strength sap is. Even a Pokémon like Toxapex would afford us with what would amount to between 50% and 30% recovery for most HP stats (145hp recovery).
At the same time a Pokémon with so little power is not going to stop us setting up immediately. There are of course special attackers, with low Attacking stats that cannot be debuffed, but those are troubled by calm mind.

I think rather than being unreliable, Strength sap might be a tad too reliable in stopping answers from breaking through 29.
The fact that in most cases they will at best hit us neutral+SE in two turns, in addition to us boosting or debuffing the opponent while recovering, means that we are getting a lot more staying power. Depending on our speed strength sap is basically another set up move.
It also provides utility for our team as even if the opponent can switch in a counter to 29 and force a switch, there’s a good chance it will have less power if hit by strength sap and be easier to deal with.
 
The thing here is you are underplaying how consistent strength sap is. Even a Pokémon like Toxapex would afford us with what would amount to between 50% and 30% recovery for most HP stats (145hp recovery).
At the same time a Pokémon with so little power is not going to stop us setting up immediately. There are of course special attackers, with low Attacking stats that cannot be debuffed, but those are troubled by calm mind.

I think rather than being unreliable, Strength sap might be a tad too reliable in stopping answers from breaking through 29.
The fact that in most cases they will at best hit us neutral+SE in two turns, in addition to us boosting or debuffing the opponent while recovering, means that we are getting a lot more staying power. Depending on our speed strength sap is basically another set up move.
It also provides utility for our team as even if the opponent can switch in a counter to 29 and force a switch, there’s a good chance it will have less power if hit by strength sap and be easier to deal with.
The point is though that there should be the option to use Strength Sap over something straight forward like Recover. Having the option to be nuanced to better check Rilla, Barraskewda, and other dangerous physical attackers like Rabia pointed out is not a bad thing once so ever.
 
I think people are underestimating the power of strength sap. While I do agree that 50% recovery moves are the best way to approach this concept, strength sap is a great recovery move that allows us to create opportunities for us to set up easier. By decreasing the attack stat of the opponent we not only get health back, but we also force out that mon. Usually making the opponent switch up is bad for the strength sap user as the opponent can use this opportunity to bring a special attacker, but this isn't the case with this CAP however. Since 29 is a designed calm mind user, the opponent is heavily disinclined to bringing special attackers that can serve as set-up bait. This means that we are less discouraged from not spamming strength sap as just a few Mons don't care about the attack decrease or our calm mind opportunity.

I still think 50% recovery moves are the way to go, but I think strength sap deserves good merit
 
I think people are underestimating the power of strength sap.
I don't think anyone is underestimating its power. Most of the comments that disapprove of the move are saying its too strong for the concept, and limits us more later on or even debatably takes over the design.
 

Rabia

GOAT MAN GOAT MAN
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP Co-Leader
I don't think anyone is underestimating its power. Most of the comments that disapprove of the move are saying its too strong for the concept, and limits us more later on or even debatably takes over the design.
I disagree vehemently with this. I think this concept's power level is at a really low point as is; people should be much more open to compensation in other areas of the process. This isn't something like Equilibra where people were just misguided in thinking the concept was doomed from the start; quite literally the concept of CAP 29 is to take an underpowered ability and somehow make it work. If that means giving CAP 29 a really good move, then by all means we should.
 
I disagree vehemently with this. I think this concept's power level is at a really low point as is; people should be much more open to compensation in other areas of the process. This isn't something like Equilibra where people were just misguided in thinking the concept was doomed from the start; quite literally the concept of CAP 29 is to take an underpowered ability and somehow make it work. If that means giving CAP 29 a really good move, then by all means we should.
I agree that this mon needs compensation for its ability that it hasnt yet received, and Im open to Strength Sap, but it isnt a defining move. The move that needs to be secured before the stats stage is reliable recovery which makes ability-less calm mind workable. If our stats create a situation where Strength Sap needs to be ruled out then thats perfectly fine because that means we gave it the hefty compensation that it needs in the stats stage, rather than in movepool. Otherwise it can wait to be picked up or discussed again in the movepool stage.
 

snake_rattler

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
We absolutely need reliable 50% recovery, whether it's Recover, Slack Off, Roost, Soft-Boiled, etc. (the exact move doesn't really matter to me). This will allow CAP29 to actualize Color Change and accumulate enough Calm Mind boosts to start hitting hard. Whichever 50% recovery move is chosen should considered Required.

As for Strength Sap, I think it would be a very powerful addition to CAP29, and for once I think it actually works if we want to spend our power budget on it as a Defining Move. The Attack drop should line up pretty well with Color Change's mechanics, honestly. However, Strength Sap shouldn't supplant the aforementioned 50% recovery move. Either Strength Sap should be Required alongside the 50% recovery move or Optional for spreads that elect to use it. Another option is to not include it as a Defining Move and see how it stacks up during Movesets Discussion. I'm not sure which path is best, but I'm certain that a 50% recovery move should be Required.
 
Going to second snake_rattler and spoopy here and advocate for a 50% recovery move. Looking at the list of 50% recovery moves, Recover or Slack Off make the most sense here, as Wish uses up a turn, and Purify, while interesting, will only be usable in very rare scenarios, which makes it very unreliable.

I will say, though, that I do like the idea of Pain Split, as not only does it heal us, it also damages the opponent. Depending on the mon, Pain Spilt could allow us to get some kills that we wouldn't be able to while also healing us in the process.

mod edit: removed flavor reasoning from post
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Strength Sap is an incredibly powerful move, especially when paired with the ability to boost special bulk too. Anyone who has been 6-0ed by a Bellossom on the randbats ladder should be well aware of that.

That said, given we've gone with Calm Mind over Quiver Dance, we will be able to control the power of Strength Sap by controlling CAP 29's speed tier. There's still easily the chance for a faster physical attacker to be a check or counter even after some CM boosts have been attained, depending on speed, so I'm not overly concerned about Strength Sap breaking CAP 29, and I think it's a reasonable place to spend some of the power budget, given how well it synergizes with Color Change and Calm Mind.

I do worry to what extent making a (hopefully) OU-viable Pokemon with Strength Sap becomes more about Strength Sap than it is about Color Change, since Strength Sap just isn't a move you see in OU, but I think I can personally accept CAP 29 having more than just the one defining feature.

I'm also fine with allowing a reliable 50% recovery move alongside or instead of Strength Sap, since I believe it is likely to be an inferior option anyway.
 
Going to second snake_rattler and spoopy here and advocate for a 50% recovery move. Looking at the list of 50% recovery moves, Recover or Slack Off make the most sense here, as Wish uses up a turn, Roost, Soft-Boiled, and Heal Order will be nightmares for the artists to incorporate into their designs, and Purify, while interesting, will only be usable in very rare scenarios, which makes it very unreliable.

I will say, though, that I do like the idea of Pain Split, as not only does it heal us, it also damages the opponent. Depending on the mon, Pain Spilt could allow us to get some kills that we wouldn't be able to while also healing us in the process.
I’m pretty sure Heal Order was removed anyway. Anyway, I feel like Pain Split is a pretty ineffective recovery move, as it can never heal you all the way and your opponent could predict it and switch to something that’s heavily damaged. CAP28’s already at the mercy of its foe, and I feel like having Pain Split as its sole recovery move would not help it in that regard.

mod edit: removed flavor reasoning from post
 
Last edited by a moderator:

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver
Moderator
Minor post:

I believe we should get non-conditional 16 PP 50% recovery, chosen such that it matches the flavor of the final design best. This mon is likely gonna have to take a lot of hits, and putting our hopes in the likes of Synthesis/Morning Sun does not inspire much confidence from me. The longevity granted by the stronger 50% options is something I really want for this CAP, and would really help us last through a game, and multiple switchin / sweep attempts.

Strength Sap is something that I honeslty have difficulty evaluating. CAP as it is is a very specially biased meta, with pokemon like Equilibra granting potentially 105 HP at most from Strength Sap, which really limits how much use it provides. That said, it still presents a ton of power in specific matchups, and getting a Strength Sap user vs Physical Offense could just be an instant win. There's a lot of unknowns here, and I'd like it to be on the Optional list, as frankly, I think there's some spreads that could be designed to work well with it, and many might just consider it unreliable and design without it in mind.
 
I agree with the general consensus that we absolutely must have an unconditional 50% recovery option (a la recover, roost, etc.). For a bulky setup sweeper, we definitely need at least some form of recovery. I do think we should also keep Strength Sap as an optional move too, however. Strength Sap, as has been highlighted in this thread, is a very powerful move that enables a mon to better take on physical threats whilst healing itself completely in the process.

As quziel said, CAP is a pretty specially-oriented metagame, so SS wouldn’t be used as frequently as reliable 50% recovery, but I can guarantee you that it would see use on sets that play to its strengths.

TL;DR - I think that reliable 50% recovery is an absolute must, and should be listed under required, defining moves. Strength Sap should also be added during the movepool process, as an optional recovery alternative. Both play to Color Change’s strengths as well as the bulky setup sweeper archetype, and should 100% be included into CAP29’s arsenal.
 
Last edited:
Minor post:

I believe we should get non-conditional 16 PP 50% recovery, chosen such that it matches the flavor of the final design best. This mon is likely gonna have to take a lot of hits, and putting our hopes in the likes of Synthesis/Morning Sun does not inspire much confidence from me. The longevity granted by the stronger 50% options is something I really want for this CAP, and would really help us last through a game, and multiple switchin / sweep attempts.

Strength Sap is something that I honeslty have difficulty evaluating. CAP as it is is a very specially biased meta, with pokemon like Equilibra granting potentially 105 HP at most from Strength Sap, which really limits how much use it provides. That said, it still presents a ton of power in specific matchups, and getting a Strength Sap user vs Physical Offense could just be an instant win. There's a lot of unknowns here, and I'd like it to be on the Optional list, as frankly, I think there's some spreads that could be designed to work well with it, and many might just consider it unreliable and design without it in mind.
Agree with this. Not going to get too long-winded as much as what I want to say has been said already. Basically what I think is: 50% recovery move: REQUIRED. Strength sap, pain split, wish, jungle healing, etc: OPTIONAL

Strength Sap is a very powerful move, but can be taken advantage of. A 50% recovery move to ensure longevity is vital. We can give it strength sap as an additional option later, when we are further along the process and can better assess whether it would be healthy for 29.

Of the 50% recovery moves, I agree that we're going to need one of the 16 pp clones, as quziel suggested. I believe the only two that have additional conditional utility are Roost and Shore Up.
 
I'm in agreement for flat 50% recover moves, like Recover, Soft Boiled, Heal Order, Milk Drink and slack Off

Roost has good utility, in that we can have some control over our typing, even if it is quite situational. Shore Up has good utility too, in that it becomes really good in sand.

Synthesis, Moonlight and Morning Sun are not reliable, and we need to squeeze reliability with this Mon, as this concept is inherently unreliable.

Wish, Jungle Healing and Strength Sap are not reliable enough, which is why I am opposed to those moves. They can be added, but they are not required at all

mod edit: removed flavor reasoning from post
 
Last edited:

snake_rattler

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
mod post: Do not include flavor reasoning for which moves should be chosen or not as Defining Moves. This stage evaluates moves for their competitive merits only.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Jungle Healing, even outside of optical reasonings (basically its still a Legendary-exclusive) I don't think is really that great of an option here. As a recovery move, I think for our purposes its not going to be used over the much more reliably useful recover.

While the status-healing effect of the move is nice for the team, I really don't think its going to be great for CAP29 individually. Poison will require the opposing Pokemon to hit us with at least one attack before they can get Toxic off, and CAP29 would realistically remain aware of such option. Burn can be irritating, but as Calm Mind is a defining move I imagine that is the main setup move, and outside of the 6% burn damage it isn't devestating. Paralysis is the only one that really hurt CAP29, but that's just one effect. I don't see the clerical argument being something that CAP29 will have time for, considering how smart it has to be with its turns.

Aside from that, its just Life Dew. 25% healing is not enough to be consistent for what CAP29 needs. 25% can't exactly recover us back if Rillaboom Wood Hammers us for 50% and continues to do so after we change, while Recover certainly can.
 
It's again about time to wrap up this stage of discussion with my thoughts and takeaways on these recovery options:

Consistent 50% Recovery will be Required. This one was pretty unanimous, and I agree wholeheartedly: we need some form of powerful and consistent recovery to fulfil our role well. Note that by "Consistent 50% Recovery" I'm referring to Recover and its clones, including the slightly mechanically different Roost.

Strength Sap will be put in Optional. Hate this move as I do, I can clearly understand and agree with some arguments made for both its application on CAP 29, its position in the metagame, and its implications on our power budget. I don't, however, think it's either consensus in the community, nor is it necessary for the success of CAP 29. This is effectively what I believe the Optional section here is made to accommodate: Strength Sap would be a move that we'd have to heavily consider during Stats, and I want to make sure the option remains on the table.

Jungle Healing, Leech Seed, and Pain Split are not going in either category. These moves fall into a category of not really being reliable but getting the bulk of the non-50% and non-Sap discussion. Jungle Healing isn't nearly as useful for us on the Specially-defined end, and 25% recovery is significantly weaker to the point I question if it would be effective for us at all, or ran over any 50% recovery move. Leech Seed and Pain Split are just not particularly reliable by nature, and are clearly moves that we can revisit down the line in Moveset stage itself. There simply just isn't a need to put these in Defining.

Our last part of this stage is discussing Extraordinary Damaging Moves and Strong Utility Moves. This should be a comparatively quick stage, as we're still quite open ended with regards to damaging moves in particular, and as such I'm setting a soft limit to wrap up in 24 Hours.
 
For our attacking options, I'll be focusing on our "STAB" options. Yes, we will be without STAB a lot of the time during our sweep, but our coverage isn't awful with just these two types, and there is always the possibility of getting to click a move as soon as you come in. I definitely don't think these should be the only damaging moves on either list; to be honest, I just picked it because it provided a good focus.

Sludge Bomb is the only move that I really think needs to be necessary. It's being the strong Poison type move of its category that we can reasonably use (Belch requires a berry to be used and has unreliable accuracy). It also carries a 30% chance to poison, giving it utility for Calm Mind sets. I think this is pretty self-explanatory.

Following this, here are some moves that I think could show up in some capacity:
  • Dark Pulse is a bit mediocre in terms of power (only 80 BP), but it's the strongest reliable Dark type special move we can reasonably get. It's reliable "STAB" and comes with an occasionally useful 20% flinch chance. It's probably more likely to show up in optional, but Dark/Poison isn't awful two-move coverage, and it would be powered up from the times we get to keep STAB.
  • Gunk Shot has been mentioned before in this thread, and for good reason. We are all aware of its power and its 30% chance to poison from Cinderace's run(s) through CAP, and even though we won't be getting STAB on it all of the time, it still synergizes excellently with Coil and has utility outside of sweeping as well. It should basically come attached to Coil, even though Coil itself is optional.
  • Knock Off's sheer usefulness can't be understated, giving us something to do when we're not quite in the position to sweep, and boasting the highest BP of a Dark type move we can reasonably get at 97.5 BP on the first hit. Its measly 65 BP sans-item makes it a rather awkward choice for a sweep, but I think it's usefulness outshines this, and can still deal massive damage to opponents with items after some boosts. I also think this should come attached to Coil.
  • Poison Jab trades sheer power for reliability in terms of accuracy, in addition to being more spammable due to higher PP, and it doesn't lose out on the 30% chance to poison. I honestly think this could very easily be a required move, although I could see arguments that Gunk Shot's power is simply too much to lose out on without STAB backing us up. Could come attached with Coil, could basically be optional even with Coil.
  • Darkest Lariat is in a similar boat to Dark Pulse, sitting at 85 BP but being the strongest reliable Dark type physical move we can reasonably get. Besides being reliable STAB, it also ignores opposing Defense and evasion raises, which could be useful in countering opposing boosts. Crunch could also go here, being 5 BP weaker for more PP and a 20% defense drop that could come in handy during a sweep. Both are optional list material at best, and I could see them being left off, but I figured it was worth mentioning.
Also going to take a moment to talk about Night Daze. Yes, it has higher power than Dark Pulse, but the imperfect accuracy hurts it a lot as an option, and the "fun" 40% chance to lower accuracy basically means banking on the drop to happen, then banking on the miss to happen for it to do anything. It could be more useful, since we could have the bulk to wait out the drops, but we could also whiff entirely. Even Zoroark (the Pokemon that Night Daze is exclusive to) prefers Dark Pulse, although admittedly that's more because Night Daze is a dead giveaway if Illusion is still up, and its frailty means it can't afford to miss for a measly 5 BP upgrade, both of which will not be problems for CAP29. Still, I think Dark Pulse is more reliable and ultimately better, which is why it's up there and Night Daze is down here.

In terms of coverage, the door is much wider open. I absolutely think we need some type of move to hit the Steels of the tier, especially Equilibra, even if only neutrally. Even though it pairs decently with Dark Pulse, Poison is pretty awful as part of two-move coverage, so I think some kind of Water-type attack should show up here, especially if we want to aim for higher power to compensate for lack of STAB. There are other higher power or higher utility coverage options from types like Ice (Ice Beam in particular), Fire (Lava Plume, Fire Blast, Flare Blitz), Electric (Thunderbolt in particular), Ground (Earth Power, Scorching Sands, Earthquake) and Fighting (Close Combat in particular) that I'm interested to see more discussion on..

EDIT: I completely forgot to mention Power Trip and Stored Power. I think they should both be optional at best; Power Trip pairs well with Coil (since it goes up by 60 BP on every boost), but isn't super reliable because boosting is required for it to get anywhere, and Stored Power goes up more slowly with Calm Mind, making it a rather awkward choice.
 
Last edited:
Attacking wise I don’t think it’s really much to discuss without a consistent stab most moves lack power the only two moves that really need to be discussed are BoomBurst and StoredPower as they’re the two most powerful attacking options we have. I’m personally okay with having both.

I think The utility discussion is where we really define 29’s full toolkit, we can limit 29 primary to its bulky sweeper role, or depending on the utility options we can allow 29 to branch out.
The goal is for 29 to be a successful color change bulky sweeper but the primary goal is to just be a successful color change mon. Because of this I want to suggest one of Parting Shot and U-Turn, These two moves would act as insurance that 29 would have a secondary viable set, that would not be used over the boosting set if we succeed.

Torment is another we should definitely be considering due to its interactions with color change and the potential to turn unfavorable match ups vs dragon and ghost spam into successful ones, by limiting the opponents successful choices.
 
In terms of strong moves, Sludge Bomb and Gunk Shot should absolutely be allowed. Their ability to poison could provide this CAP with a way of powering through bulkier mons like Slowking. Additionally, I would like to see strong Ice/Fire/Lightning coverage allowed, as what we want from our coverage options will largely depend on our stats and what we ultimately want this mon to be countered by.

In terms of pivoting moves, I do not think it would be helpful to allow these given our goal at the moment is to make a set-up sweeper. Pivot moves are really only seen on sweepers when they provide useful STAB (ex: Scizor), which is something CAP 29 will not be able to have. Including pivot moves would go against our concept assessment.

In terms of status inflicting moves, I also do not think any should be allowed. Again, these detract from CAP 29's main archetype of being a setup sweeper, and I don't think we want to run the risk of a move like Toxic or Sleep Powder derailing the process.
 
Our last part of this stage is discussing Extraordinary Damaging Moves and Strong Utility Moves. This should be a comparatively quick stage, as we're still quite open ended with regards to damaging moves in particular, and as such I'm setting a soft limit to wrap up in 24 Hours.
There is an elephant in the room that we ought to address here. Even more than powerful STAB moves, even more than flinch and poison rates, we have an option in this stage that can elevate CAP29 beyond the offensive drawbacks of its ability Color Change. I am referring to the gold, nay, platinum standard of STAB-independent offensive power—Boomburst.

I previously asserted that CAP29 must be able to clean house harder and faster than the opponent can cripple it. Losing our initial STAB to Color Change drastically and negatively affects that ability to the point where it takes +1 SpA just to reclaim lost ground. Boomburst circumvents that setback by allowing CAP29 an offensive option that exceeds the output of STAB Dark Pulse and STAB Sludge Bomb, no matter what its type may be at the time. Since we're operating with an unreliable ability and a fairly vanilla setup option, I think we have an ample power budget remaining. Birkal noted we're facing an upstream battle for viability, and we have still yet to arm ourselves.

At the moment, I am favorable towards Boomburst. Someone is sure to take issue with how it skirts around Color Change interactions, but that is exactly the point. Once it has set up, a viable CAP29 must be something greater than a punching bag for Color Change. Further, it does have one uniquely hazardous interaction: mirror matches where the opponent stands to benefit from Normal STAB. Whether we're for or against Boomburst, this is the time to decide.
 
dex18 mentioned the exclusion of status-inflicting moves, but I suggest the inclusion of moves with a high chance of inflicting a status, namely Scald, Lava Plume, and/or Discharge. The inclusion of these moves will help CAP29 provide team support and gain more setup opportunities while still fulfilling its role as a special setup sweeper.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'm a little unclear on what kinds of moves are supposed to be discussed here, so I'm going with the working definition of "moves that we might need to plan stats around"

Sludge Bomb: Absolute no brainer.

Scald: Water/Poison coverage has been discussed extensively in the server and the discord as it hits the most common mons in the tier for at least neutral, except for Dragapult, Pajantom and Pex, all of which we lose to anyway. However, Paj and physical Pult don't want to get burned. It also hits Libra SE. Its 30% burn chance is extremely useful for suppressing physical attackers, considering we're only boosting spdef. Additionally, its interaction with U-turn and Volt Switch is notable; Water is SE vs 2 of the 3 types that are SE vs Bug, and is SE vs the only type that is SE vs Electric. This discourages opponents from U-turning/volt switching into a strong (physical) SE hit because 1) a stab user risks an SE scald and 2) a physical mon risks burn. I actually think Steam Eruption might be less useful than Scald due to its limited 8 pp.

Psycho Shift: This is a weird one that I've thought about briefly and don't have fully formed thoughts about, but I'm interested to see what other people think about. It has the potential to be defining because with a Flame Orb, CAP29 can 1) avoid toxic and para and 2) cripple physical attackers. It also has the potential to be completely useless because it essentially forces only 1 attacking move on a CM set. Personally, I think it can go in Optional.

Other moves that are weird/cool that may warrant discussion:
Reflect Type - Cool extra type fuckery. But do we need to plan stats around it?
Heal Bell/Aromatherapy/Refresh - Useful ways to circumvent Toxic? Completely outclassed by Jungle Healing? Do we really need to plan stats around these?
Parting Shot/U-turn/Volt Switch/Teleport/Baton Pass - Definitely need to plan stats around these, but should we be focusing on its set-up role?
Hazards - Do we need to plan stats around these?

I think Power Trip and Stored Power can both go in Optional.

Boomburst lets ghosts in for free and its efficacy depends greatly on what second move we're running. It's a high powered move, but it hits literally nothing SE, and has no secondary effect. Definitely could be cool, but also don't think even with its high power it would be a defining move.

Other 30% burn moves like Scorching Sands and Lava Plume are also interesting.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top